A Warrior's Lament
Tim Croft
They who know nothing, They who dare nothing.
The fire within their Aryan soul has long expired,
rudderless and adrift, devoid of ancestral courage.
Mediocrity can never grasp Thy calling,
Yes- Let them sleep.
The thoughtless, the self-serving, the unheroic,
blind as they are to Nature's Laws.
Truth does not move them, nor a pride of their kind. These are not men.
They are but mechanistic shadows animated within an empty, rootless age!
Yes- They sleep, they sleep.
And when good men die in freedom's fight,
they sleep- clutching life's hourglass,
kneeling shamelessly before alien gods.
In a world they have not earned,
This world
That once knew
So many Golden Ages.
-Ron McVan
http://www.14words.com
Aldwolf
Let them be your sheep, Great Hitler!
They who know nothing, They who spew biggotry.
The sawdust within their fascist heads has long expired,
brainless and goose stepping, devoid of Asatru values.
freedomless bald headed thralls can never grasp the nine virtues,
Yes- Let them be Adolf's sheep.
The thewless, the totalitarian serving, the fettered,
blind as they are to the wisdom of Icelandic poets,
Frith does not live in them, nor a pride of their individuality. Bald Thralls
with no hair.
They are but a dead fascist's shadows, animals remembering an empty,dead cause!
Yes- Adolf's sheep, Adolf's sheep.
And when good men learn lore by Wodans light,
they are sheep- clutching where their hair used to be,
saluting shamelessly before a dead austrian dictator.
In an Asatru faith they have not earned,
This world
Knows too many
Too many skinhead Asses.
Taliesin of Earthstar
Now there are those we see of late,
Who call on Wotan for their hate
Of people strange, and far away,
Indeed, for any not their own.
They say that hate is Wotan's Way.
They say that people hate them, too,
"Because the words we say are true."
They say their late leader is Great,
For though he died a coward's death,
He taught them how, and who, to hate.
They say that those who do not hate
Who they are told will share their fate.
They say theirs is "The One True Way."
They say that they will rule the world
They say their "truth" holds all in sway.
I say there's honor in respect,
But hate of strangers I reject.
I say that those who follow hate
And tell their lies to justify,
Are fools, deserving of their fate.
Honor to those who honor earn,
But skin-head posers honor spurn.
I cannot see the path they walk,
But this I know, as from the Gods,
They have no place among the Folk.
I seek my own path, and my way
remains my own. I shall not pay
The coin of cowards to my foe.
I honor those who seek the truth,
But hate I answer, even so.
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
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inge...@my-dejanews.com
> The sawdust within their fascist heads has long expired,
I couldn't have expressed it any better myself. There's a reason I have
killfiled anything on my *other* account that mentions "Aryan race" or "folk
soul" (along with a few other key words, such as the names of the two main
Biblical characters, that signal a troll or spam 90% of the time). I've said
it before, and I'll say it again: RTFE! The lore says *nothing* about ethnic
or ancestral requirements for Asatru; heck, the gods themselves entered
racially mixed marriages.
Ingeborg S. Nordén
(rune...@msn.com)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Tim Croft
creativity. We, today, live in a world of hate and chaos, I long for a
world of love and order, please don't confuse my postings with anything
else. On that 14words page, there is a link to, "What is hate?", please
read it, it covers well where I stand.
OOKAMEI
Excellant!! <<throws a gold armring to you>> Hail the skald!
In Troth,
--Mike
RKN
:RtR:
Taliesin of Earthstar
On Sun, 4 Oct 1998 09:40:52 -0500 (EST), in alt.religion.asatru you
wrote:
>Aldwolf, Taliesin, very good, I give you both an A, for effort and
>creativity.
When one feels strongly about a topic, one may be granted a gift of
inspiration beyond one's "normal" means. Hate and bigotry are topics
I feel strongly about.
>We, today, live in a world of hate and chaos, I long for a
>world of love and order, please don't confuse my postings with anything
>else.
"Love and order" on whose terms, Mr. Croft? On your terms alone, or
on terms that a consensus of all people can accept?
>On that 14words page, there is a link to, "What is hate?", please
>read it, it covers well where I stand.
I have done so -- and shall respond here.
I will not ask for your pardon on the length of this post -- the
quoted page presents a great seal of information. I feel it would be
best to present all of that information. I will, however, ask pardon
for not preserving the original format -- HTML does not translate
well on most newsreaders.
- ----- Begin "quoted" text from the web-site www.14words.com -----
>Our slogan is: 14-WORDS: "We must secure the existence of our
>people and a future for White children." Is that hate?
>
>The White race is 8% of earth's population. Only2%is White female
>of child-bearing age or younger.
The only viable way to attain such a figure is to eliminate non-
Germanic whites from your count -- which makes me, as a child of
Germanic, Celtic, and Rumanian ancestry "of mixed race," by your
accounting.
>The life of a race is in the wombs of
>its women. Yet under the existing media, religions and governments,
>the last White women are being induced to mate with non-Whites
>wholesale.
Induced by whom, precisely? I have certainly never seen a marriage of
"mixed race" that was enforced with a gun.
Are you suggesting that force is being used? I would request that you
prove it, for the weakness of such unsubstantiated claims bodes ill
for the remainder of your case.
Are you suggesting that guile is being used? That speaks ill for the
resilience of will of the "white race." I certainly have no such
problems of a lack of will.
>These are demographic facts........ Is that hate?
I'll comment on this later.
>We do not identify here what group holds political power in the
>once-White nations and who has sentenced the White race
> to death...... Is that hate?
It boots little to refuse to put your views on a web-site, except
perhaps in avoiding being refused service by an "upstream" ISP or
host. However, as you decline to mention a specific group, I shall,
in turn, decline to speculate. I only wish to respond to the stated
information, and thus hope to avoid accusations of "putting words in
your mouth," as it were. I shall simply refer to the people whom you
do not identify as "the Other."
>Those who control the once-White nations deny us White nations,
>White schools, White organizations and everything necessary for
>racial survival. We resist this deliberate and malicious
>genocide...............Is that hate?
Who denies these things? Never mind -- I said I would not speculate.
Perhaps if you were either more open in your accounting, or more
specific in your terminology, your statements would bear more weigh.
As I stated above, you begin with poor demographics -- oh yes, you
may choose to define who is "white" and who is "non-white," but do
not complain when others refuse to accept your definitions.
>If Whites do not immediately establish an exclusive White nation, then
>the beauty of the White Aryan woman will soon cease to exist on earth
>forever. We are taught to dread the extinction of spotted owls, so why
>is it a hate crime to love and preserve one's race? Is that hate?
It is not hate to preserve one's "race," though the term is
(biologically speaking) a misnomer.
It is hate to view that the "white race" is intrinsically superior,
and can at leave either expell or kill all "non-whites."
Just where will you set your "White Nation" up? Antarctica is the
only unoccupied area with no indigenous population. Would you settle
in the "Germanic" area of Central Europe? You would be forced to
displace many who do not meet your rather narrow standards of "racial
purity."
Or would you re-create the "final solution," and send all those who
were different from you to their deaths?
>We obey the first and highest Law of Nature, "the preservation
>of our own race." Is that hate?
Such a "Law of Nature" has no foundation in science or nature -- only
in rhetoric. However, as you have chosen rhetoric over truth, I shall
respond as I see fit -- as you will not accept what I see as truth, I
shall respond with fact.
>The controlled media deceives the White race by calling the colored
>races "minorities" when they are 92% of earth'spopulation,thus
>disguising their genocide campaign against Whites by implying that
>Whites are a secure majority. These lies and deceit must be
>exposed........Is that hate?
Lies? And what of your own lies?
Your lies -- yes, I speak directly to you, Mr. Croft. You state that
the page "covers well where [you] stand," then your views will stand -
- - or fall -- based on what the page says.
>The last hope for the preservation of the White race is massive and
>immediate distribution of the truth, such as this flier exposes.Act
>now with the fanaticism of desperation and help us educate millions
>of our people......Is that hate?
- ------ End "quoted" text ------
Yes -- it is hate.
it is not hate to hold oneself as distinctive to others -- it is hate
to hold oneself superior to others.
It is hate to devalue others, based on the color of their skin, or
their ancestry, or their gender. It is hate to encourage violence
against those "different" from you. (No, this specific page does not
encourage violence -- but there are other works that do.)
There is an honor in being distinctive -- there is even an honor in
being superior. But if you wish to prove that you are "superior" to
me, you had better base your superiority on your DEEDS, not your
ancestry.
My deeds are to lift up the fallen; to encourage the weak; to heal
the wounded; to encourage the downhearted; and to respect those
worthy of honor, whatever their heritage. My deeds are to expose
lies, and oppose those who cause injury to my kin.
And you, Mr. Croft, cause injury to my Kin.
You -- and people like you -- encourage division within my Kin. You
foment fear and hatred of "the Other" among my Kin.
And you -- because of the non-Germanic elements of my heritage --
would exclude me from my Kin.
Am I going to convince you to stop spreading dissention within my
family? probably not -- but as long as such lies as these are being
spread, I shall oppose them by exposing them to the Truth. Whether or
not you accept the truth is not my concern.
You may choose to exclude yourself from my family, but you will not
be allowed to spread your lies unopposed. I oppose your lies -- and I
shall oppose them, and expose them for what they are, until you see
the truth.
If I end up opposing you, and people like you, for the balance of my
life, then I shall count it a life well spent.
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
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Eirik Dudeleisson
inge...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <19981004044631...@ng-fa1.aol.com>,
> ald...@aol.com (Aldwolf) wrote:
> >
> > Let them be your sheep, Great Hitler!
> > They who know nothing, They who spew bigotry.
> > The sawdust within their fascist heads has long expired,
> > brainless and goose stepping, devoid of Asatru values....
>
> I couldn't have expressed it any better myself. There's a reason I have
> killfiled anything on my *other* account that mentions "Aryan race" or
"folk
> soul" (along with a few other key words, such as the names of the two main
> Biblical characters, that signal a troll or spam 90% of the time). I've
said
> it before, and I'll say it again: RTFE! The lore says *nothing* about
ethnic
> or ancestral requirements for Asatru; heck, the gods themselves entered
> racially mixed marriages.
>
> Ingeborg S. Nordén
> (rune...@msn.com)
If the Gods jumped off a bridge...would you?
Referring to 1000 year old myths about the Gods as examples for modern
issues can be a worthless adventure...it solves little. Fact is, I'm a
human, this is planet Earth, year 1998, and I'll make my own decisions on
what is right or wrong for me. I don't recall the Gods ever having told
mankind how to run his life.
Should I decide to believe in the Folk Soul, and I do, that is my own damn
decision...not the Edda's. There is no mention of Television or
Space-Shuttles in the Eddas either...must not exist, eh? The Eddas, BTW,
are still being written.
Eirik(r) "ungi" Dudeleisson Dudeleissonar Fredrickssonar Edwinssonar
Fimbultyrsgodi, Markland Kindred of the Asatru Alliance
--
"Ber er hver að baki nema sér bróður eigi."
mark...@asatru.org
http://members.xoom.com/markland
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sun, 4 Oct 1998
10:46:17 -0700, "Eirik Dudeleisson" <mark...@asatru.org> intoned:
>If the Gods jumped off a bridge...would you?
Not necessarily, but if they told me to, I'd give it some
consideration <g>.
>Referring to 1000 year old myths about the Gods as examples for modern
>issues can be a worthless adventure...it solves little. Fact is, I'm a
>human, this is planet Earth, year 1998, and I'll make my own decisions on
>what is right or wrong for me. I don't recall the Gods ever having told
>mankind how to run his life.
True enough -- Wiccans face a similar problem. Though (in all
reality) our religion is not 1000+ years old, we still have those who
insist that it is -- and who seek no relevance for today.
>Should I decide to believe in the Folk Soul, and I do, that is my own damn
>decision...not the Edda's. <snip>
Well and good -- but I would ask you this.
Do you believe your "folk soul" is "superior" to others?
Do you believe that one of mixed heritage can participate wholly in
both "folk souls," or are they limited (or excluded outright) from
one or both?
You are quite correct that your beliefs affect you alone -- but your
actions can affect others. How would your actions affect me?
>The Eddas, BTW, are still being written.
Good point.
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Had I done the research first, I would have had at least some of my
answers:
>Do you believe your "folk soul" is "superior" to others?
>
>Do you believe that one of mixed heritage can participate wholly in
>both "folk souls," or are they limited (or excluded outright) from
>one or both?
>
>You are quite correct that your beliefs affect you alone -- but your
>actions can affect others. How would your actions affect me?
(the following quoted from the Markland Kindred web-site:
http://members.xoom.com/markland)
- ----- Begin quoted text -----
Markland's Proclamation of Principles: "To further the evolution of
Asatru and the Teutonic Folk, we hold personal freedom, self-will,
and the ethics of liberty in the highest regard. We do not support
agendas, personal or otherwise, of racism or terrorism. We view
Asatru as special to the Teutonic peoples: Asatru is the organic,
indigenous, ethnic religion of those descended from the original
tribes of Northern Europe. Our goal is to re-create a sound and
viable tribe of traditional, family orientated, Teutonic Folk
following the ancient ways of our ancestors, while extending our
reach to greater heights in the modern era."
- ------ End quoted text ------
I, personally, cannot follow a path that excludes others based on
ancestry, for in truth, we all come from the same ancestors, if you
go back far enough. But I can respect the struggle of a people who
seek to live according to kinship, yet refuse to accept racism.
As I've said before "There is an honor to being distinctive."
Hailsa, Eirik Dudeleisson.
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
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She Devil With A Rubber Chicken
<inge...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <19981004044631...@ng-fa1.aol.com>,
> ald...@aol.com (Aldwolf) wrote:
>>
>> Let them be your sheep, Great Hitler!
>> They who know nothing, They who spew bigotry.
>> The sawdust within their fascist heads has long expired,
>> brainless and goose stepping, devoid of Asatru values....
ROTFL! Kick butt!
--
| Do not CD c
"Have you walked on the stones of years..." | taunt --------P===\==/
ELP - TARKUS | happy fun /_\__
| fencer! _\ \
Eirik Dudeleisson
>>HP, Earthstar Coven
>Excellant!! <<throws a gold armring to you>> Hail the skald!
>In Troth,--Mike
>RKN
>:RtR:
I'll be checking with him later to make sure he got it...if he didn't, then
<<insert terrible threat here>>>! LOL
Hail Skalds!!
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sun, 4 Oct 1998
12:56:10 -0700, "Eirik Dudeleisson" <mark...@asatru.org> intoned:
>>>Taliesin of Earthstar
>>>HP, Earthstar Coven
>
>>Excellant!! <<throws a gold armring to you>> Hail the skald!
>>In Troth,--Mike
>>RKN
>>:RtR:
>
>I'll be checking with him later to make sure he got it...if he didn't, then
><<insert terrible threat here>>>! LOL
>
>Hail Skalds!!
>
I take it a skald is a good thing, then <g>?
Seriously, I've heard the referrence before, but had always just
equated the word with the Celtic "bard."
to the best of my understanding, the bards were, to some extent,
supporters of the local king or chief, but in times of trouble they
would also accost any if they broke the law -- even the king.
How similar are the two concepts?
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
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Eirik Dudeleisson
No. It is because of people like Ingeborg, who constantly lump Folk Soul
and Nazism into one group, that the mis-conception expressed by yourself and
others is formed. I hold the individuals who purposely seek to tarnish
Folkish Asatru, by representing it as racism/Nazism, to be dis-honorable.
>>>Do you believe that one of mixed heritage can participate wholly in both
"folk souls," or are they limited (or excluded outright) from one or
both?<<<
It is my personal opinion that one should go with the stronger "pull" they
feel within. If that stronger pull is towards their Teutonic heritage, they
should focus exclusively on that "pull"...and, if the stronger pull was with
<<insert ethnicity here>>, then they should focus exclusively on that
"pull."
Overall, I don't have the right, nor does anyone, to tell someone which
religion they should practice...but, I do have the right to practice my
religion with whoever I do or don't want to. Because it is my, and my
Kindred's, personal belief that people should only practice the religion of
their ancestors...we hold our membership to those of Teutonic descent.
None of this has anything to do with hating other races...or even believing
my own to be "superior." Throughout my whole life, I have had good friends
who were not "white." From ages 0-8, my next door neighbor Kenny
(Hawaiian), 12-14 Ladrell (African), 15-16 Tony Lim (Korean)...but I have
lost contact with all of them because of moving--12 schools, 3 states. I am
only 18 now, and I'm sure I'll probably have more "non-white" friends as
time goes on. My point? I believe in something, and I'll stick by it, BUT,
that something is not racism--it's Folkish Asatru.
As I have said, many a time, "I respect other cultures, by NOT relegating
the world to a mono-culture."
That is my/our right.
inge...@my-dejanews.com
"Eirik Dudeleisson" <mark...@asatru.org> wrote:
> If the Gods jumped off a bridge...would you?
Of course not; one of the things I accept about my religion is that the gods
do make foolish mistakes sometimes. Mixed-race marriages, though, are not
such a "foolish mistake".
> Referring to 1000 year old myths about the Gods as examples for modern
> issues can be a worthless adventure...it solves little. Fact is, I'm a
> human, this is planet Earth, year 1998, and I'll make my own decisions on
> what is right or wrong for me. I don't recall the Gods ever having told
> mankind how to run his life.
They may not have given us absolute rules the way SOME gods do, but they do
give us guidelines. Ever hear of the Hávamál? THAT was written for humans
on Planet Earth--and even if *technology* has changed over the centuries,
*people* and *attitudes* have not. Common sense shouldn't be discounted
because it's found in an ancient text.
> Should I decide to believe in the Folk Soul, and I do, that is my own damn
> decision...not the Edda's. There is no mention of Television or
> Space-Shuttles in the Eddas either...must not exist, eh?
Apples-and-oranges logic: one is physical technology (which does change and
leaves physical evidence behind), one is an abstract concept (which shouldn't
change and doesn't leave physical evidence behind). Besides, you seem to have
forgotten one thing: the name of this religion is ÁSAtrú (loyalty to the
gods), not ÞJÓÐARtrú (loyalty to the Folk). If there's a conflict between
those loyalties, it should be obvious which comes first--as long as the gods
aren't demanding some obviously foolish, destructive act!
>The Eddas, BTW, are still being written.
Hogwash...I have yet to see a body of new lore that's consistent enough with
the old for all Heathens to accept. Then, and only then, would I agree that
the Eddas are still being written.
--
inge...@my-dejanews.com
Spam me at your own risk <wicc...@geocitiesDOT.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> I take it a skald is a good thing, then <g>?
>
> Seriously, I've heard the referrence before, but had always just
> equated the word with the Celtic "bard."
There is some overlap, in that skalds were poets and keepers of local history.
But they were not considered a special social class with priestly or legal
authority, in the way that Celtic bards were.
Eirik Dudeleisson
>>Of course not; one of the things I accept about my religion is that the
gods do make foolish mistakes sometimes. Mixed-race marriages, though, are
not such a "foolish mistake".<<
In regard to "foolish mistakes," NO MATTER what the topic, a "foolish
mistake" is subject to PERSONAL OPINION.
>>>Referring to 1000 year old myths about the Gods as examples for modern
issues can be a worthless adventure...it solves little. Fact is, I'm a
human, this is planet Earth, year 1998, and I'll make my own decisions on
what is right or wrong for me. I don't recall the Gods ever having told
mankind how to run his life.<<<
>>They may not have given us absolute rules the way SOME gods do, but they
do give us guidelines. Ever hear of the Hávamál? THAT was written for
humans on Planet Earth--and even if *technology* has changed over the
centuries, *people* and *attitudes* have not. Common sense shouldn't be
discounted
because it's found in an ancient text.<<
"Ever hear of the Havamal?" I sure hope so...or I read the wrong poem
Everyday for 3 weeks straight, until I almost had it memorized.
"THAT was written for humans on Planet Earth" Sure was, and by a human too!
Just like the Bible, Kama Sutra, Koran, and EVERY THING EVER WRITTEN!! Even
Rush Limbaugh's "I told you so."!!
Attitudes haven't changed?? OKAY, what about the old practice of putting
your baby out in the cold to die if it didn't look healthy/strong enough?
Or what about sacrificing humans to Odin? Are YOU SURE attitudes haven't
changed?
>>>Should I decide to believe in the Folk Soul, and I do, that is my own
damn decision...not the Edda's. There is no mention of Television or
Space-Shuttles in the Eddas either...must not exist, eh?<<<
>>Apples-and-oranges logic: one is physical technology (which does change
and leaves physical evidence behind), one is an abstract concept (which
shouldn't change and doesn't leave physical evidence behind). Besides, you
seem to have forgotten one thing: the name of this religion is ÁSAtrú
(loyalty to the gods), not ÞJÓÐARtrú (loyalty to the Folk). If there's a
conflict between those loyalties, it should be obvious which comes first--as
long as the gods aren't demanding some obviously foolish, destructive act!<<
AND, if I believe in the Landvaettir...am I not ASAtru?? Would I then be
Landvaettirtru? What about the Vanir? What about the Jotnar? So, I must
only believe in the AEsir to be Asatru?
I shouldn't dare you to take the term to such extreme levels...because, YOU
being dedicated to Freyr would be VANAtru.
My loyalty is to Odin and Tyr...call me what you will...but I will still be
ASAtru.
>>>The Eddas, BTW, are still being written.<<<
>>Hogwash...I have yet to see a body of new lore that's consistent enough
with the old for all Heathens to accept. Then, and only then, would I agree
that the Eddas are still being written.<<
When you take your head out of your ass...we'll continue the conversation on
Eddas. Modern-Skalds like Rorik will most definitely have their work in the
future Eddas.
Heimdall
(Taliesin of Earthstar) wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sun, 4 Oct 1998
> 14:27:59 -0700, "Eirik Dudeleisson" <mark...@asatru.org> intoned:
>
> >>>>Do you believe your "folk soul" is "superior" to others?<<<
> >
> >No. It is because of people like Ingeborg, who constantly lump Folk Soul
> >and Nazism into one group, that the mis-conception expressed by yourself
> and
> >others is formed. I hold the individuals who purposely seek to tarnish
> >Folkish Asatru, by representing it as racism/Nazism, to be dis-honorable.
>
> Ah, but the problem may not be with Ingeborg, but with those who
> claim to be of the AsatruaR, and also claim that these two traits are
> inseparable. Those people do exist -- if you have never encountered
> one, count your blessings.
Heilsa! I would disagree here just a tad ;).
While there isn't much doubt that there are folk who allow a political
philosophy to rule over a religious one it is still dishonorable to try and
broad brush a whole group based on the words of a few. It shows an ingrained
intolerance and rush to a judgment merely to justify an already conceived bias.
The work to spread this bias by attacking anything remotely connected to
ancestry is of no value to Asatru as a community or growing faith. The posts of
one or two do not a group make and no amount of infantile finger pointing will
turn Asatruar in nazi's. If we allow ourselves down that path we'll see
moonphaize awaiting us at the other end.
<snipped a touch>
Fare with the Gods
Heimdall
AFA/AOR/Himinbjorg Hearth
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Who call on Wotan for their hate
**I would certainly and proudly call on Woden/All-Father
for my hate, as in Battle, because the name of All-Father
would be the last thing my foes would hear as they die<g>**
> Of people strange, and far away,
> Indeed, for any not their own.
> They say that hate is Wotan's Way.
***Here we go with 'They' again.....
Must be that Collective Humanity stuff again..***
>
> They say that people hate them, too,
> "Because the words we say are true."
**Opinions on this aside, most disagreements
stem from the Ultimate Truths that are advocated between
rivals..***
> They say their late leader is Great,
> For though he died a coward's death,
***[shooting his mouth off again]**
> He taught them how, and who, to hate.
***Knowing your enemy by being 'taught' who is 'Evil'
is a pre-requisite to the use of a broadsword or axe,
or firearm in battle..Otherwise, it makes no real sense
does it??**
>
> They say that those who do not hate
> Who they are told will share their fate.
**If sheep could kill wolves the above statement
might be possible..**
> They say theirs is "The One True Way."
> They say that they will rule the world
> They say their "truth" holds all in sway.
**Not really different in substance from any existing
religious or political belief pattern. It's actually the only
basis for the existence for organized human society.
It works, too...**
>
> I say there's honor in respect,
> But hate of strangers I reject.
> I say that those who follow hate
> And tell their lies to justify,
> Are fools, deserving of their fate.
***'Peace' didn't work out so well for our
forebears in Europe. The world is a violent place.
Belief in Utopian Peace is as fatal as the arrogance
of unbridled militarism...**
>
> Honor to those who honor earn,
> But skin-head posers honor spurn.
***What? There ought to be a law respecting
bald people...Cripes. We have 'No Smoking' zones everywhere.
The FAA banned peanuts on airline flights, and now
bald people are being driven out of public view..?<g>**
> I cannot see the path they walk,
> But this I know, as from the Gods,
> They have no place among the Folk.
***More scriptural authority ...***
>
> I seek my own path, and my way
> remains my own. I shall not pay
> The coin of cowards to my foe.
***Tried that already and it doesn't work.
One does need a good weapon to overcome any foe<g>***
> I honor those who seek the truth,
> But hate I answer, even so.
***I think it's a matter of those seeking ideology
and denying that they themselves are ideological....
The whole attitude of the poem is a one sided, uncritical
blather between NeoNazi and NeoNutsy here....
But then NeoNazi and NeoNutsy are like Siamese Betta Fishes-
put 'em in a tank together and watch the fins rip off <g>**
>
> Taliesin of Earthstar
> HP, Earthstar Coven
>
> Website under construction
**Ideology under construction too...***
"Hitlerites" deny All-Father as the the life of a Folk.
"Hate-watchers" deny All-Father's Folk as a living element.
Personally, both can hit the trail....
*************************************************************************
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
AEF/ER
http://members.tripod.com/~aernfolk/index-2.html
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sun, 4 Oct 1998
14:27:59 -0700, "Eirik Dudeleisson" <mark...@asatru.org> intoned:
>>>>Do you believe your "folk soul" is "superior" to others?<<<
>
>No. It is because of people like Ingeborg, who constantly lump Folk Soul
>and Nazism into one group, that the mis-conception expressed by yourself
and
>others is formed. I hold the individuals who purposely seek to tarnish
>Folkish Asatru, by representing it as racism/Nazism, to be dis-honorable.
Ah, but the problem may not be with Ingeborg, but with those who
claim to be of the AsatruaR, and also claim that these two traits are
inseparable. Those people do exist -- if you have never encountered
one, count your blessings.
I cannot speak for Frau Norden, but I know that there are certain
posts that I simply cannot afford to read, else I will get caught in
a pointless rage -- pointless in that the person is not right in
front of me, so I can't threaten to leave wheelchair tracks up their
back if they don't move their stupidity elsewhere <g>.
>>>>Do you believe that one of mixed heritage can participate wholly in both
>"folk souls," or are they limited (or excluded outright) from one or
>both?<<<
>
>It is my personal opinion that one should go with the stronger "pull" they
>feel within. If that stronger pull is towards their Teutonic heritage,
they
>should focus exclusively on that "pull"...and, if the stronger pull was
with
><<insert ethnicity here>>, then they should focus exclusively on that
>"pull."
Which is why (you may wish to refer to my other post in this thread)
I could not practice your particular "vision" of Asatru, though I can
respect it, and those who practice it.
The likes of Mr. Croft I cannot respect -- I do not feel that lies
have any place in ones faith.
If I were to practice some variant of Asatru (and it would HAVE to be
a "variant," not the "original") I would have to practice in a way
that recognized all of mankind as my Kindred.
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
wiccahome <AT> geocities <DOT> com
WARNING: Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to the
above address enters you into the agreement that you
accept a charge of $50 U.S. for proof-reading, grammar,
and spelling correction. This agreement does not apply
to requested information.
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Molnir
<<I am
only 18 now, and I'm sure I'll probably have more "non-white" friends as
time goes on. >>
better watch out, moonfart might try to rag on you and call you a spoiled
little brat or something... ;)
--Molnir...@aol.com
~*~brewer for The Children of Midgard~*~
you know how to reply and what to remove.
for info regarding The Children of Midgard, please email: TCOMi...@aol.com or
visit http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/jinx/232
Molnir
now, this hair thing is a little insulting. i recently shaved my head, not
because i feel the urge to look like the nazi-wannabes around here, but because
my genetics are cruel and decided to let my hair start to go at the early age
of 18. i figured, what the hel? get rid of it now and get it over with. just
don't start to rag on people without hair. you can't group us all together just
because of physical characteristics.
Molnir
<<I will not ask for your pardon on the length of this post -- the
quoted page presents a great seal of information. I feel it would be
best to present all of that information. I will, however, ask pardon
for not preserving the original format -- HTML does not translate
well on most newsreaders.
>>
>>MAJOR SNIPPAGE<<
::::::clapping:::::: my, taliesin, you have done well. hail!! :)
S. M. Hewitt
wrote:
(snip)
>> "Eirik Dudeleisson"
>> "folk soul"
>> >Nazism
>> >Folkish Asatru
>> Ah, but the problem may not be with Ingeborg, but with those who
>> claim to be of the AsatruaR, and also claim that these two traits are
>> inseparable. Those people do exist -- if you have never encountered
>> one, count your blessings.
>Heilsa! I would disagree here just a tad ;).
>
>While there isn't much doubt that there are folk who allow a political
>philosophy to rule over a religious one it is still dishonorable to try and
>broad brush a whole group based on the words of a few.
...zzzzzzzzzing, to the heart of the matter...thank you for weighing
in, brother Heimdall.
>It shows an ingrained
>intolerance and rush to a judgment merely to justify an already conceived bias.
zzzzzzzzzing....
>The work to spread this bias by attacking anything remotely connected to
>ancestry is of no value to Asatru as a community or growing faith. The posts of
>one or two do not a group make and no amount of infantile finger pointing will
>turn Asatruar in nazi's. If we allow ourselves down that path we'll see
>moonphaize awaiting us at the other end.
>
><snipped a touch>
>
>Fare with the Gods
>
>Heimdall
>AFA/AOR/Himinbjorg Hearth
...on the subject of "anything remotely connected to ancestry"...allow
me to suggest this (from the introduction written by Andrew
Wallace-Hadrill to "The Later Roman Empire, A.D. 354-378" by Ammianus
Marcellinus):
"To defeat the pagan, as (St.) Augustine appreciated, it was necessary
not only to ridicule his gods but to undermine his respect for the
Roman past itself."
Meaning (with my own emphasis and apologies to Mr. Wallace-Hadrill)
that, as in those critical bygone years when christianity was taking
over states (but when the issue was still indoubt between paganism and
state christianity), it is as important to trash a heathen's sense of
self and tribal identity -- and to devalue ancestry -- as it is to
demonize his Gods, should you wish to succeed in "winning the
argument", so to speak.
(I've quoted this elsewhere, but have been wanting to quote it
here...as it's very much to the point.)
Ancestry is important...don't know about a "folk soul", but ancestry
is important. You are the end product of all of the efforts of your
ancestors...you are the reason they lived at all. It doesn't give you
the keys to any kingdom, or place you anywhere vis á vis your fellow
man other than flat on your two feet, hopefully standing proudly.
But, it is about who you are.
If you believe, as I do, that we are the blood heirs of our Gods, then
it must matter. I also believe in the genius of other peoples.
Perhaps they are the heirs of their Gods, too.
************************
Now, to this damnable thread....
Some folks draw invisible but unshakable lines around
themselves...mental cones of silence...moral clean rooms...into which
they will admit no "taint", and in which they will brook no
disagreement.
Well, once again we get to dodge and duck and sling and slander
eachother. Tolerance begins at home, folks.
Personally, and for the record, it ain't any fucking body's business
what I think, who I like, or how I commune with my Gods. Not even the
business of any of you here. Period. You are well within your rights
to include or exclude me from your rites or lives based on my
actions...how I carry myself, what I say, whether I conduct myself
honorably. But you have no rights to my unvoiced opinions; nor are
you wise to infer opinions to me which I may not hold by my
associations, the use of some "hot button" term, or general
principles.
I have political opinions which I'd be rude to mention here...and
which are informed by my religious beliefs and worldview. I have
opinions about groups of people and about individuals. I am also
quite often full of shit.
All in all, however, tagging me or anyone else with Nazi, Wiccatru,
Univeralist (as a flavor of Ásatrú), Folkish (as a synomym for
Nazi)...and going on and on without let up about others you place
below yourself on some moral ladder because of views you may *think*
they have is as just the sort of "broad brush" treatment Heimdall
refers to. It is brutish and foul. It is the very sort of
intolerance under which the Jews had to suffer after the Nuremburg
Laws...before the next, awful step was taken.
Intolerance is intolerance.
If you're spoiling for a fight, go taunt Tyson about his Nevada boxing
license and his funny voice. There are people here who claim
allegiance to the Ćsir and to National Socialism...it is a fact of
life. Learn who they are and avoid them. Argue with *them* when you
feel that it would help.
Otherwise, save room for rorik, J.H. Peck, OOKAMEI, mekboy, Susan,
Hnikar, Heimdall, theowl...and Eirik D....to argue the good stuff,
informed and interesting stuff about Snorri, Lokij, the Eddas,
history, Ásatrú as a living religion, and a thousand other more
constructive topics.
...for instance, I was getting into that tunic thread...but I have no
contributions...I had mine made for me...I can run a 'puter, but not a
sewing machine.
We're an argumentative, combative people, quick to anger and quick to
vent...but all of this finger-pointing is taking a natural tendency
too far.
-- Steve
********************************
Honor to the Ancient Gods.
Honor to the Ones Who've Gone Before.
Honor to the Scholars and the Warriors.
...and honor to the land and the spirits of
the land!
Hail Óđinn and Freyr!
********************************
S. M. Hewitt
>If the Gods jumped off a bridge...would you?
>
...hmmmmm....
>Referring to 1000 year old myths about the Gods as examples for modern
>issues can be a worthless adventure...it solves little. Fact is, I'm a
>human, this is planet Earth, year 1998, and I'll make my own decisions on
>what is right or wrong for me. I don't recall the Gods ever having told
>mankind how to run his life.
>
...no, there is not divinely inspired road map...but, hmmmmm....
>Should I decide to believe in the Folk Soul, and I do, that is my own damn
>decision...not the Edda's. There is no mention of Television or
>Space-Shuttles in the Eddas either...must not exist, eh? The Eddas, BTW,
>are still being written.
>
...hmmm.....
>Eirik(r) "ungi" Dudeleisson
...I'm reading stuff of the surface which takes me aback...better read
deeper....
The Eddas aren't the Bible...they aren't an owner's manual to the
teutonic human...but they are rightly revered wisdom, most of it
timeless in it's scope.... Along with television, toaster aren't
mentioned...but human interaction -- which transcends gadgetry -- is,
and in wise detail.
...hmmmmmmm....
-- Steve
********************************
Honor to the Ancient Gods.
Honor to the Ones Who've Gone Before.
Honor to the Scholars and the Warriors.
...and honor to the land and the spirits of
the land!
Hail 羽inn and Freyr!
********************************
J.H.Peck
[mega-snip]
> ...for instance, I was getting into that tunic thread...but I have no
> contributions...I had mine made for me...I can run a 'puter, but not a
> sewing machine.
>
> -- Steve
Greetings,
Back on that subject, having made a few tunics in both early norse
and much later scots style, I find that sewing is much easier if I think
of the cloth as floppy sheetmetal. If you can cut out and rivet together
a metal box then you can sew a shirt.
A few patterns that I've had good luck with are: Folkwear's
Missisippi Riverboatman's shirt ( a good generic late type pattern).
Folkwear just started back up again,you can find them at:
http://www.larkbooks.com/folkwear.html
.
The Costume Connection inc.'s Gaul's costume (includes tunic,
trews, and a cape/collar that can be left off if you want to look
nordic) looking at their pattern enveloupe I can't find an address for
them, poop! You might check the merchant links off the S.C.A.'s web-site
at http://www.sca.org/
The Blanket-shirt pattern sold by several of the Buckskinner
supply outfits also makes a pretty nice, period-looking tunic, and many
of their patterns are designed to be sewn by us fumble-fingered
male-types. I got mine from Northwest Traders, 5055 W. Jackson rd.,
Enon, OH., U.S.A. 45323 ph.(937)767-9244.
I hope this helps out a bit.
Friğ,
Lyulf
--
anj...@gte.net | But Woe to those who break our sleep,
http://home1.gte.net/anjpeck/index.htm | And woe to those who Dare,
| To Rouse the Herd-bull from His Keep.
| Or the Wild-Boar from his lair!<R.Kipling>
S. M. Hewitt
wrote:
>S. M. Hewitt wrote:
>[mega-snip]
>> ...for instance, I was getting into that tunic thread...but I have no
>> contributions...I had mine made for me...I can run a 'puter, but not a
>> sewing machine.
>>
>[and snip again]
>> -- Steve
>
> Greetings,
> Back on that subject, having made a few tunics in both early norse
>and much later scots style, I find that sewing is much easier if I think
>of the cloth as floppy sheetmetal. If you can cut out and rivet together
>a metal box then you can sew a shirt.
> A few patterns that I've had good luck with are: Folkwear's
>Missisippi Riverboatman's shirt ( a good generic late type pattern).
>Folkwear just started back up again,you can find them at:
>http://www.larkbooks.com/folkwear.html
> .
> The Costume Connection inc.'s Gaul's costume (includes tunic,
>trews, and a cape/collar that can be left off if you want to look
>nordic) looking at their pattern enveloupe I can't find an address for
>them, poop! You might check the merchant links off the S.C.A.'s web-site
>at http://www.sca.org/
>
> The Blanket-shirt pattern sold by several of the Buckskinner
>supply outfits also makes a pretty nice, period-looking tunic, and many
>of their patterns are designed to be sewn by us fumble-fingered
>male-types. I got mine from Northwest Traders, 5055 W. Jackson rd.,
>Enon, OH., U.S.A. 45323 ph.(937)767-9244.
> I hope this helps out a bit.
> Friр,
> Lyulf
well...basically...and leaving aside the minutae of archeological
reconstructions, and opt for a practical reenactment or ritual
garment...then a tunic is very little more than a sack with sleeves
and a neck hole.
Add to that the options...tablet woven trim, if you can get it, or
sewing notion ribbon trim, if'n you can't...then you've a servicable
tunic. Given the vagarities of weather...the effects of sweat
therefrom...and the topography of your body, a tunic needn't be an
elaborate affair. There're servicable patterns available on the Web,
both from archeological recoveries and SCA servicable patterns...and
there's a heathen vendor, linkable through a kindred's web page (I've
just looked, and I can't find it now, but I'll keep looking) to a
business which sells more modern ritual tunics.
...now britches...now there's a subject.
I ran into the fellow on the front of the Dorling-Kindersley
Eyewitness book on Vikings...the one with those splendid Rus pasha
pants. Nice fellow, we were waiting in line for a privvy at a
reenactment in the UK in August. He told my wife how he'd made
them...a series of elongated diamond-shaped panels sewn into pleated
britches, gathered with a band below the knee, extending to the ankle.
That, or sort of "surgical scrub" pattern simple britches, gathered on
the low leg with puttees and/or cross-garters.
The Old Ones were very conscious of appearance...but haute
couture...well, not at the level at which most of us here would've
served, anyway....
My personal interest is footwear. I've made stabs at three or four
pairs of shoes, going off of actual recovered items I saw displayed in
York, reconstructed shoes (made by Regia Anglorum) I talked a
reenactor/guide at Jorvik Viking Center to take off and show me, and
patterns available online and elsewhere. They're hardy, comfortable,
and take a day to create...and I've got the cordage blisters and
needle pokes in my fingers to prove it.
I think that proper Germanic attire...in the proper company and
atmosphere...makes for a fine ritual.
-- Steve
********************************
Honor to the Ancient Gods.
Honor to the Ones Who've Gone Before.
Honor to the Scholars and the Warriors.
...and honor to the land and the spirits of
the land!
Hail Урinn and Freyr!
********************************
Harbard
Molnir wrote in message <19981004232123...@ng110.aol.com>...
>
>now, this hair thing is a little insulting. i recently shaved my head, not
>because i feel the urge to look like the nazi-wannabes around here, but
because
>my genetics are cruel and decided to let my hair start to go at the early
age
>of 18. i figured, what the hel? get rid of it now and get it over with.
just
>don't start to rag on people without hair. you can't group us all together
just
>because of physical characteristics.
>
Agree here (although I do have a certain automatic negative reaction to
shaved heads, partly due to some problems with active skinhead groups around
here.) I also have less hair on the top of my head than I used to (also
for genetic reasons), although I still have enough on the sides for warrior
braids. I make up for it with the hair on my chin, though.{grin}
Harbard
Molnir
<<Agree here (although I do have a certain automatic negative reaction to
shaved heads, partly due to some problems with active skinhead groups around
here.)>>
mine isn't shaved, per se, just cut extremely close. it's about 3/8 " long all
the way around.
Nuallë Schallenberger
>
> In article <3617b...@news.cvc.net>,
> "Eirik Dudeleisson" <mark...@asatru.org> wrote:
>
> > If the Gods jumped off a bridge...would you?
>
> do make foolish mistakes sometimes. Mixed-race marriages, though, are not
> such a "foolish mistake".
>
> > issues can be a worthless adventure...it solves little. Fact is, I'm a
> > human, this is planet Earth, year 1998, and I'll make my own decisions on
> > what is right or wrong for me. I don't recall the Gods ever having told
> > mankind how to run his life.
>
> give us guidelines. Ever hear of the Hávamál? THAT was written for humans
> on Planet Earth--and even if *technology* has changed over the centuries,
> *people* and *attitudes* have not. Common sense shouldn't be discounted
> because it's found in an ancient text.
>
> > decision...not the Edda's. There is no mention of Television or
> > Space-Shuttles in the Eddas either...must not exist, eh?
>
Ingeborg S. Nordén wrote:
[...] Besides, you seem to have
> forgotten one thing: the name of this religion is ÁSAtrú (loyalty to the
> gods), not ÞJÓÐARtrú (loyalty to the Folk). If there's a conflict between
> those loyalties, it should be obvious which comes first--as long as the gods
> aren't demanding some obviously foolish, destructive act!
Not having seen the discussion this sprang from, I can only respond to
what I see before me. And that question is: who are more central to
Heathen religion: the Gods or the folk (both living and dead,
presumably)?
My answer has to be: the people. Well, my underlying answer is that
something is _very_ wrong if the two groups (the Gods and the people)
are cosmologically or functionally separable. But face it: we're all
living evidence that something _is_ very wrong. We are spending lots of
our lives' energy trying to remake something that ought never to have
been lost.
The nature of that thing is essentially non-centralized. There again,
my perspective may be biased. The religion I want to approach lies long
before the christian conversion. There were imbalances in Germanic
cultures even before Ulfilas that made the people (some of them, at
least, which is the point -- when part of the people goes, the
solidarity of the whole is lost, even to those who remain) susceptible
to the change. One of the symptoms of the imbalance was decidedly
non-tribal centralization.
Setting the Gods up as the focus of attention encourages just such
centralization. I think instead that the Gods are like us in having
their own places and functions in the lay and flow of wyrd. We are
dependent on them, but we are nearer to and more affected by our own
families.
In my opinion, Ásatrú is far too expansive a term for my religion. Even
Þjóðartrú, which implies a nation-sized people, would be too large.
Perhaps what I'm leaning toward is something like kin-tru. By no means
do I leave the Gods out of anything, but I think kin is the proper
focus.
Be well!
Nuallë Schallenberger
Tim Croft
Paal-Eirik Filssunu
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> 22:19:08 -0700, Paal-Eirik Filssunu <erh...@gte.net> intoned:
>
> >(Taliesin of Earthstar) wrote:
>
> >> Now there are those we see of late,
> >> Who call on Wotan for their hate
> >
> >**I would certainly and proudly call on Woden/All-Father
> >for my hate, as in Battle, because the name of All-Father
> >would be the last thing my foes would hear as they die<g>**
>
> your foes were also their foes? The person I quoted did -- and does.
***Personally, in the style of General Patton I'd rather have the
foe die for his (of her) Gods...That way I could attend another
Sumble with kinfolk<g>**
>
> >>
> >> They say that people hate them, too,
> >> "Because the words we say are true."
> >
> >**Opinions on this aside, most disagreements
> >stem from the Ultimate Truths that are advocated between
> >rivals..***
>
> Accepted -- and though I know Wicca is not always in high regard here
> on alt.religion.asatru <g>, one of the things I prefer about my path
> is that I can say "I know I do not have access to 'all truth.' I know
> I can be wrong."
***That's the best presentation of Wicca thus far.
In Folk-Religion, there are stages of perception from the Self to the
Whole (One's People, or even Race) and it is reasonable in light of the
the continuing quests of Woden that those who are of his breath admit
that they , too, are not always 'all-knowing' [alwysend].
Good retort<g>**
>
> >> They say their late leader is Great,
> >> For though he died a coward's death,
> >
> >***[shooting his mouth off again]**
>
> Did he load his gun with a toothbrush? <g>
>
> >> He taught them how, and who, to hate.
> >
> >***Knowing your enemy by being 'taught' who is 'Evil'
> >is a pre-requisite to the use of a broadsword or axe,
> >or firearm in battle..Otherwise, it makes no real sense
> >does it??**
>
> Not necessarily.
>
> One can certainly use a weapon in battle -- one could even do so
> without hate.
**The only reason for using a weapon in battle is to give physical
expression to the spirit of hate, or rage [raakgaast] that fills the
warrior. Using hatred otherwise, one could just spew forth hundreds of
posts on a.r.a. and get away with spiritual, literary hate I presume..**
On the (very) few occasions that I have ever fought
> "for real" (as opposed to schoolyard scuffles) I felt no hate, no
> "obvious" anger -- just a sweeping surge of energy that took all
> thought and emotion with it.
**Good point...Love is something you can control. Hate and anger are
always instinctive and are driven by their own force**
>
> >> Honor to those who honor earn,
> >> But skin-head posers honor spurn.
> >
> >***What? There ought to be a law respecting
> >bald people...Cripes. We have 'No Smoking' zones everywhere.
> >The FAA banned peanuts on airline flights, and now
> >bald people are being driven out of public view..?<g>**
>
> <g> oops -- "Yer Honor, he's charged with disrespect to the
> follically challenged."
>
> >
> >> I honor those who seek the truth,
> >> But hate I answer, even so.
> >
> >***I think it's a matter of those seeking ideology
> >and denying that they themselves are ideological....
> >The whole attitude of the poem is a one sided, uncritical
> >blather between NeoNazi and NeoNutsy here....
>
> What -- and I'm Neo-Nutzy, I take it <g>?
***Well, 'Neo-Nutziism' is a mirror image of NeoNaziism. It would seem
that 'opposites attract' here, and that the scourge of ideology hauls in
those 'sides' as a magnet.....Naaaaah..I'll say 'fly paper'<g>***
>
> In truth, I may have been out of place by responding to Mr. Croft's
> post -- after all, I'm not Asatru. It could even be said that "It's
> none of your business, Wiccan," and I could not object.
>
> But I object when someone tells lies in my presence. And I shall
> continue to resist lies, with or without permission.
***'Lies' is such an ugly word....Call it 'Slander' then..***
>
> Friend, if that makes me "Neo-Nutzy," I'll accept the title.
**You may unwittingly achieve that....But at least from a Wiccan
standpoint you merit respect. I vent my spleen on your poem because in
my life I have no idle (or 'idol') time for arranging lampoons on Wicca..
A subject I really avoid because it has nothing to do with my Folk's
ways..**
>
> >"Hitlerites" deny All-Father as the the life of a Folk.
> >
> >"Hate-watchers" deny All-Father's Folk as a living element.
>
> I have never denied All-Father's Folk as a living element -- but I do
> deny that Asatru and Nazi-ism are synonymous, as I deny the lies told
> by Nazi's -- neo or otherwise.
>
> I deny that "Folkish" means "racist," but I know that some people are
> both.
>
> I deny that "racism" leads to wisdom.
***.....unless that wisdom is where a European is running for his/her
life chased by a mob of non-Europeans perhaps...But then one gains
experience and a broader viewpoint from such things..**
>
> As I have said before, there is an honor in being distinctive --
> there is even an honor in being superior. But if one wishes to prove
> that he or she is "superior" to me, one had better base his
> superiority on DEEDS, not on ancestry.
**The "Supremacy/Superiority" trip is rather burned to cinders after all
these centuries...I think in many cases the arrogance of Supremacy is
actually better translated as 'Survival' which is at the heart of all
existing human societies and peoples..***
>
> Taliesin of Earthstar
> HP, Earthstar Coven
***Wala Haalgjum/
In the Hallows prosper**
Lokij
> Hnikar, Heimdall, theowl...and Eirik D....to argue the good stuff,
> informed and interesting stuff about Snorri, Lokij, the Eddas,
> history, Ásatrú as a living religion, and a thousand other more
> constructive topics.
Heheheh Wow! I rate as high as Snorri and the Eddas as a reference
source and subject of debate. I must have missed all those threads. ;)
LOL- Andrew Cantrell aka lokij
J.H.Peck
[snip]
> well...basically...and leaving aside the minutae of archeological
> reconstructions, and opt for a practical reenactment or ritual
> garment...then a tunic is very little more than a sack with sleeves
> and a neck hole.
S'truth, the basic old S.C.A. T-tunic works for most any cause.
>
> Add to that the options...tablet woven trim, if you can get it, or
> sewing notion ribbon trim, if'n you can't...then you've a servicable
> tunic. Given the vagarities of weather...the effects of sweat
> therefrom...and the topography of your body, a tunic needn't be an
> elaborate affair. There're servicable patterns available on the Web,
> both from archeological recoveries and SCA servicable patterns...and
> there's a heathen vendor, linkable through a kindred's web page (I've
> just looked, and I can't find it now, but I'll keep looking) to a
> business which sells more modern ritual tunics.
>
> ...now britches...now there's a subject.
>
> I ran into the fellow on the front of the Dorling-Kindersley
> Eyewitness book on Vikings...the one with those splendid Rus pasha
> pants. Nice fellow, we were waiting in line for a privvy at a
> reenactment in the UK in August. He told my wife how he'd made
> them...a series of elongated diamond-shaped panels sewn into pleated
> britches, gathered with a band below the knee, extending to the ankle.
>
> That, or sort of "surgical scrub" pattern simple britches, gathered on
> the low leg with puttees and/or cross-garters.
them into well waterproofed knee-high boots.... I'm in the pacific
northwet :).
Good sewing ability, especially when doing the crotch and seat
areas, is more important with trews than with tunics. Like the old
saying goes: "As you sew, so shall you rip". (sorry, couldn't resist
<G>)
>
> The Old Ones were very conscious of appearance...but haute
> couture...well, not at the level at which most of us here would've
> served, anyway....
>
> My personal interest is footwear. I've made stabs at three or four
> pairs of shoes, going off of actual recovered items I saw displayed in
> York, reconstructed shoes (made by Regia Anglorum) I talked a
> reenactor/guide at Jorvik Viking Center to take off and show me, and
> patterns available online and elsewhere. They're hardy, comfortable,
> and take a day to create...and I've got the cordage blisters and
> needle pokes in my fingers to prove it.
>
> I think that proper Germanic attire...in the proper company and
> atmosphere...makes for a fine ritual.
Indeed. I like to do ritual clothing cause it makes me feel more
in touch with my ancestoral spirits (or something like that) and less
like I'm just hangin' out suckin' down mead and discussing how bad the
Trailblazers are going to suck this year (if the lock-out ends).
>
> -- Steve
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Mon, 05 Oct 1998
20:34:38 -0700, Nuallë Schallenberger <alder...@earthlink.net>
intoned:
>inge...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>If there's a conflict between
>> those loyalties, it should be obvious which comes first--as long as the
gods
>> aren't demanding some obviously foolish, destructive act!
>
>Not having seen the discussion this sprang from, I can only respond to
>what I see before me. And that question is: who are more central to
>Heathen religion: the Gods or the folk (both living and dead,
>presumably)?
>
>My answer has to be: the people.
A good and worthwhile answer -- but (as a non-Asatruar, I may be
missing a point) do the two have to conflict at all?
Is it possible that (taking myself as an example), if the Gods seem
to say one thing to me, and the need of the people is another, that
the problem is not with the Gods, or with the people, but with my
perception?
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
wiccahome <AT> geocities <DOT> com
WARNING: Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to the
above address enters you into the agreement that you
accept a charge of $50 U.S. for proof-reading, grammar,
and spelling correction. This agreement does not apply
to requested information.
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Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Sun, 04 Oct 1998
22:19:08 -0700, Paal-Eirik Filssunu <erh...@gte.net> intoned:
>(Taliesin of Earthstar) wrote:
>> Now there are those we see of late,
>> Who call on Wotan for their hate
>
>**I would certainly and proudly call on Woden/All-Father
>for my hate, as in Battle, because the name of All-Father
>would be the last thing my foes would hear as they die<g>**
Certainly -- but would you tell lies to convince other people that
your foes were also their foes? The person I quoted did -- and does.
>>
>> They say that people hate them, too,
>> "Because the words we say are true."
>
>**Opinions on this aside, most disagreements
>stem from the Ultimate Truths that are advocated between
>rivals..***
Accepted -- and though I know Wicca is not always in high regard here
on alt.religion.asatru <g>, one of the things I prefer about my path
is that I can say "I know I do not have access to 'all truth.' I know
I can be wrong."
>> They say their late leader is Great,
>> For though he died a coward's death,
>
>***[shooting his mouth off again]**
Did he load his gun with a toothbrush? <g>
>> He taught them how, and who, to hate.
>
>***Knowing your enemy by being 'taught' who is 'Evil'
>is a pre-requisite to the use of a broadsword or axe,
>or firearm in battle..Otherwise, it makes no real sense
>does it??**
Not necessarily.
One can certainly use a weapon in battle -- one could even do so
without hate. On the (very) few occasions that I have ever fought
"for real" (as opposed to schoolyard scuffles) I felt no hate, no
"obvious" anger -- just a sweeping surge of energy that took all
thought and emotion with it.
>> Honor to those who honor earn,
>> But skin-head posers honor spurn.
>
>***What? There ought to be a law respecting
>bald people...Cripes. We have 'No Smoking' zones everywhere.
>The FAA banned peanuts on airline flights, and now
>bald people are being driven out of public view..?<g>**
<g> oops -- "Yer Honor, he's charged with disrespect to the
follically challenged."
>
>> I honor those who seek the truth,
>> But hate I answer, even so.
>
>***I think it's a matter of those seeking ideology
>and denying that they themselves are ideological....
>The whole attitude of the poem is a one sided, uncritical
>blather between NeoNazi and NeoNutsy here....
What -- and I'm Neo-Nutzy, I take it <g>?
In truth, I may have been out of place by responding to Mr. Croft's
post -- after all, I'm not Asatru. It could even be said that "It's
none of your business, Wiccan," and I could not object.
But I object when someone tells lies in my presence. And I shall
continue to resist lies, with or without permission.
Friend, if that makes me "Neo-Nutzy," I'll accept the title.
>"Hitlerites" deny All-Father as the the life of a Folk.
>
>"Hate-watchers" deny All-Father's Folk as a living element.
I have never denied All-Father's Folk as a living element -- but I do
deny that Asatru and Nazi-ism are synonymous, as I deny the lies told
by Nazi's -- neo or otherwise.
I deny that "Folkish" means "racist," but I know that some people are
both.
I deny that "racism" leads to wisdom.
As I have said before, there is an honor in being distinctive --
there is even an honor in being superior. But if one wishes to prove
that he or she is "superior" to me, one had better base his
superiority on DEEDS, not on ancestry.
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
wiccahome <AT> geocities <DOT> com
WARNING: Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to the
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Nuallë Schallenberger
>
> Nualle, what about Volktru?
"Volk-", like "Þjóð-", implies something larger to me than my near kin.
(Keep in mind, I have something like 50 first cousins, so my idea of
near kin is pretty expansive in itself.) I do use its English cognate,
"folk", but by it I tend to mean my near kin.
My other issue with the term "volk" is that, in my experience, many of
those who have preferred that term have shown themselves to be (in my
consideration) racist. I am proud of the fact that I have ancestors
from all over the world. Obviously, I hold no truck with racists. I
emphasize here that I am in no way calling you a racist -- I don't know
you. I just wish to share my observation.
But in practice, I don't end up using the "-tru" construction in
describing my religion. I call myself a Heathen, plain and simple.
Be well!
Nuallë Schallenberger
Nuallë Schallenberger
> [...] (as a non-Asatruar, I may be
> missing a point) do the two have to conflict at all?
>
> Is it possible that (taking myself as an example), if the Gods seem
> to say one thing to me, and the need of the people is another, that
> the problem is not with the Gods, or with the people, but with my
> perception?
That would be one viable possibility -- and if it were me, probably the
one I would investigate first. But the Gods are not flawless. Also,
given that the Gods know a good many things that I don't and assuming
that their motives toward me and mine are honorable and that I am
generally well served to listen to them when they deign to talk to me...
given all that, my decisions are ultimately mine and I must make them
according to my own best judgment.
That said, I reiterate the rest of my response to Ingeborg:
>> [...] my underlying answer is that
>> something is _very_ wrong if the two groups (the Gods and the people)
>> are cosmologically or functionally separable. But face it: we're all
>> living evidence that something _is_ very wrong. We are spending lots of
>> our lives' energy trying to remake something that ought never to have
>> been lost.
Be well!
Nuallë Schallenberger
Harald and Gerda
Heimdall wrote in message <361830AE...@geocities.com>...
>
[snipped a bunch because I'm late {as usual} and don't have a clue]
>
If we allow ourselves down that path we'll see
>moonphaize awaiting us at the other end.
>
<shudder>
:)
Despite my jokes about a tent at the edge of town....
Frith
Harald
Harald and Gerda
S. M. Hewitt wrote in message <36199541...@news.n-link.com>...
>On Sun, 04 Oct 1998 19:36:30 -0700, Heimdall <heim...@geocities.com>
[some {?} snip]
Aha - the bandwidth bane is at it again.
Good post -
Frith
Harald
Harald and Gerda
Nuallë Schallenberger wrote in message <36198F...@earthlink.net>...
>inge...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>In my opinion, Ásatrú is far too expansive a term for my religion. Even
>Þjóðartrú, which implies a nation-sized people, would be too large.
>Perhaps what I'm leaning toward is something like kin-tru. By no means
>do I leave the Gods out of anything, but I think kin is the proper
>focus.
>
>Be well!
>Nuallë Schallenberger
Heilsa Nualle -
Kin and Kin-dred is the soul of the folk. Regardless.
My feelings.
Frith and Blessings
Harald
Taliesin of Earthstar
Out of the depths of their immense wisdom, on Tue, 06 Oct 1998
18:44:41 -0700, Nuallë Schallenberger <alder...@earthlink.net>
intoned:
>(Taliesin of Earthstar) asked:
>> [...] (as a non-Asatruar, I may be
>> missing a point) do the two have to conflict at all?
>>
>> Is it possible that (taking myself as an example), if the Gods seem
>> to say one thing to me, and the need of the people is another, that
>> the problem is not with the Gods, or with the people, but with my
>> perception?
>
>That would be one viable possibility -- and if it were me, probably the
>one I would investigate first. But the Gods are not flawless. Also,
>given that the Gods know a good many things that I don't and assuming
>that their motives toward me and mine are honorable and that I am
>generally well served to listen to them when they deign to talk to me...
>given all that, my decisions are ultimately mine and I must make them
>according to my own best judgment.
All important distinctions -- and yes, I was assuming same (and you
know that joke about the word "assume." <g>)
I guess I tend to take a larger picture of "kin" than some AsatruaR
might -- nothing superior in my POV, just different. From my POV, all
of humanity is my "thjodar" (Note: I hope I'm using the word
correctly) -- I may not interact with each of them every day, and
indeed I've never met most of them, but by my concept of honor, I
must behave as if I did know each and every one personally, and was
"close kin" to them all.
I guess that's why racism irritates me -- right along with the other
divisive "ism's." Or maybe my heritage as an American is just showing
<g>. (Getting down from my soapbox now -- no, really, I mean it....)
Taliesin of Earthstar
HP, Earthstar Coven
Website under construction
wiccahome <AT> geocities <DOT> com
WARNING: Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to the
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AXPaendrag
>**The only reason for using a weapon in battle is to give physical
>expression to the spirit of hate, or rage [raakgaast] that fills the
>warrior.
No. The only reason for using a weapon in battle is to harm your foe more than
is possible with your bare fists.
And why fight, if not for rage, or hatred? For honor, for duty, for love, for
loyalty. There are petty reasons for fighting, and there are noble reasons. I
cannot think of an example of a noble fight that was purely motivated by hate.
Bater,
Adrien Paendrag
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
{members.tripod.com/~paendrag} {ICQ#13625484}
{adrien....@juno.com} {IM AXPaendrag}
Ross Stotz
for
>loyalty. There are petty reasons for fighting, and there are noble
reasons. I
>cannot think of an example of a noble fight that was purely motivated by
hate.
Being in the military I can think of another good reason to fight. Good old
fashioned survival, or self perservation. Fighting is never actually a good
thing, but sometimes it's a very necessary thing.
AXPaendrag
>Being in the military I can think of another good reason to fight. Good old
>fashioned survival, or self perservation. Fighting is never actually a good
>thing, but sometimes it's a very necessary thing.
Ah, yes, quite. I forgot about this one. Two very good points.
AP
Ryan å Vaerdal
insulted you very personally?
flesh
>
> Why fight another unless it is for self defense or against a foe who has
> insulted you very personally?
For nationalism. We live in giant tribes, even today. We may rebel
against
the larger tribe and fight it, but even in this we're belonging to a
tribe.
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Fl...@Bellsouth.net
ICQ: 21318307
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"I admit I used the city treasury to
fund the murder of my enemies, but as
Gabbo would say..I'm a bad wittle boy"
- Mayor Quimby, "The Simpsons"
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Ryan å Vaerdal
it be strength or wisdom that determines the winner?
In days of old numbers, strength and sword skills were what determined
the more powerful opponents, but today the name of the game is wisdom
and stratedgy over bronze and strength in my opinion. Offcourse I'm
talking from a
Sun Tzu point of thought.
Greg Shetler
????????????
This makes no sense to me. Sun Tzu wrote about warfare in ancient
China. How does "today the name of the game is wisdom and stratedgy..."
come from Sun Tzu?
Not to flame, but statements like this need more clarification, if we
who read them are to have a hope of understanding what you're saying.
I, for one, have no idea what the reference to Sun Tzu means here...
Greg