pecs
caroline And Martyn
children with language??
At my sons group they are teaching him pecs, my son is 3 and he does make
small sentences and asks for what he wants verbally.
during one of these teaching sessions they didnt want him to ask for juice,
he would normally say "I want juice please" but they wanted him to give me a
card with the picture of juice...
I am worried that if he does not use his verbal skills he will get used to
just giving me a card without feeling the need to ask. Im aware of the
benefits of pecs, but i think my sons vocabulary will suffer eventually
and ideas??
caz
Tim Bruening
caroline And Martyn wrote:
What is pecs, if not a part of the human chest?:)
Gareeth
"caroline And Martyn" <martyn...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bcjv8b$1uu$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> I was just wondering if pecs was a language tool for non verbal children
or
> children with language??
>
> At my sons group they are teaching him pecs, my son is 3 and he does make
> small sentences and asks for what he wants verbally.
>
> during one of these teaching sessions they didnt want him to ask for
juice,
> he would normally say "I want juice please" but they wanted him to give me
a
> card with the picture of juice...
>
supplement language I have not heard of them being used instead of language
once it has been developed, and I would share your concerns about that. I
think you are right to worry about it.
Gareeth
Sue Neale
"caroline And Martyn" <martyn...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bcjv8b$1uu$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
or
> children with language??
Both non-verbal and developing language individuals
> At my sons group they are teaching him pecs, my son is 3 and he does make
> small sentences and asks for what he wants verbally.
:)
> during one of these teaching sessions they didnt want him to ask for
juice,
> he would normally say "I want juice please" but they wanted him to give me
a
> card with the picture of juice...
???
> I am worried that if he does not use his verbal skills he will get used to
> just giving me a card without feeling the need to ask. Im aware of the
> benefits of pecs, but i think my sons vocabulary will suffer eventually
The idea of PECS or signing with children who are developing language is to
give them something to fall back on if they are having trouble verbalising,
it has been found to encourage language. Has he just started to learn PECS?
Just trying to work out why they don't want him to speak at the same time.
It should complement his speech not overtake it.
I would be asking why they did it this way if I was you.
Sue
>
> and ideas??
>
> caz
>
>
sggaB the Slug
> I was just wondering if pecs was a language tool for non verbal children or
> children with language??
Both. I use it, if that gives you any idea, although I came at it on my
own as a useful tool for some things after seeing it used in a classroom.
> I am worried that if he does not use his verbal skills he will get used to
> just giving me a card without feeling the need to ask. Im aware of the
> benefits of pecs, but i think my sons vocabulary will suffer eventually
His written vocabulary will likely increase, though. The important thing
with communication is that it's communication, not that it's speech, and
it's quite likely that the PECS will help him with speech rather than
hinder it. But even if it were to hinder speech, the most important thing
is maximising communication.
--
sggaB
Autistic Spectrum Code, v1.0
AA! dpu s-:+ a-- c+(++) p(+) t--- f--- S--(++)@ p?@ e-(+)@ h- r--@ n--
i++ P m--(++)@ M
growi...@hotmail.com
> I am worried that if he does not use his verbal skills he will get used to
> just giving me a card without feeling the need to ask. Im aware of the
> benefits of pecs, but i think my sons vocabulary will suffer eventually
> and ideas??
The bigger hurdle for autistics is understanding that language
exists at all. PECS helps encourage the give-and-take in language,
encouraging communication. I don't think he'll be harmed by being
able to express his wishes to you.
--
Joel
EncourMin
My son is completely non-verbal and uses pecs, along with a communication
software package we designed to help him communicate. It works beautifully.
Because children with autism are so visually driven, pictures are important,
however, not at the expense of language. The things my son CAN say, we require
him to say verbally as well. Those he can't say, we get him to attempt to
verbalize when he gives us the pec of what he wants. The communcation software
helps tremendously also, because it links the pec to the verbal. When he
touches the pec he wants, the program automatically says the name of what he
touched.
Anyway, to more directly address your situation.....
I don't think using pecs will be a set back, as long as they are having him
verbalize in addition to using the pecs. If they do it this way, it will
probably strengthen his vocabulary and his language association skills. Just
make sure they have him verbalize also.
Kalen
> Just an opinion..........
>
> My son is completely non-verbal and uses pecs, along with a communication
> software package we designed to help him communicate. It works beautifully.
> Because children with autism are so visually driven,
*Some* autistic children.
> The things my son CAN say, we require him to say verbally as well.
"Require"? What if he won't or can't say it in that specific instance,
but still wants or even needs what he has requested?
--
Kalen
Autistic Spectrum Code
AA! d---(pu) s-:++ a- c++ p(+) t+++ f- S--(++)@ p++ e+ h+ r+(--) n* i++
p+ m+ M+>++
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=top-poster-1-122%40bigsky.antelope.net
sggaB the Slug
> Because children with autism are so visually driven, pictures are important,
This is not true for all autistic people. Only some autistic people are
visually driven.
> however, not at the expense of language. The things my son CAN say, we require
> him to say verbally as well.
PECS actually *is* a kind of language, seeing as they usually have words
written on them as well. I would settle, in that situation, for either
speaking or typing of the word, since the main limitation of PECS is the
limited symbol set.
> I don't think using pecs will be a set back, as long as they are having him
> verbalize in addition to using the pecs. If they do it this way, it will
> probably strengthen his vocabulary and his language association skills. Just
> make sure they have him verbalize also.
Only if he can, and only if it's not at so much of a cost to him that he
can't communicate.
Pierre Abbat
>
> "caroline And Martyn" <martyn...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>> I am worried that if he does not use his verbal skills he will get used
>> to just giving me a card without feeling the need to ask. Im aware of the
>> benefits of pecs, but i think my sons vocabulary will suffer eventually
>
> The idea of PECS or signing with children who are developing language is
> to give them something to fall back on if they are having trouble
> verbalising,
> it has been found to encourage language. Has he just started to learn
> PECS? Just trying to work out why they don't want him to speak at the same
> time. It should complement his speech not overtake it.
>
> I would be asking why they did it this way if I was you.
If my child weren't speaking (and even if he were) (not that I have any
children yet) I'd much rather he learn sign language than PECS. (btw,
that's Picture Exchange Communication System. I thought it was a Hungarian
word and had to look it up.) Sign language is a complete language, with a
grammar quite different from any spoken language. It'll stretch his mind as
well as give him a way to communicate that's easier than speaking.
phma
Janna Hoskin
> I was just wondering if pecs was a language tool for non verbal
> children or children with language??
It is a language tool for anyone who needs a supplemental communication
method. Sometimes the supplemental can be PECS, sometimes it's sign,
sometimes it's the written word (typed or otherwise).
> At my sons group they are teaching him pecs, my son is 3 and he does
> make small sentences and asks for what he wants verbally.
If he is talking and so on, why are they teaching him PECS? Have you
asked them why?
> during one of these teaching sessions they didnt want him to ask for
> juice, he would normally say "I want juice please" but they wanted him
> to give me a card with the picture of juice...
It seems perhaps they are beginning at the beginning with him, when in
fact they should be starting at a later stage of the PECS curriculum. Do
you feel comfortable talking with them about your concerns?
> I am worried that if he does not use his verbal skills he will get
> used to just giving me a card without feeling the need to ask. Im
> aware of the benefits of pecs, but i think my sons vocabulary will
> suffer eventually
I think you are right to be concerned. I hope you are reassured by the
knowledge that eventually they will have him speak. I just think they
should be asking him to talk as well as passing over the picture -
pairing the PEC symbol with his current abilities will probably help him
make the association faster and stronger.
I would go to them and ask the following questions:
1. My son already asks for things using speech. Can you explain to me
why you are teaching him PECS?
2. I am concerned that you will discourage my son's current speech
abilities if you refuse to reinforce his spoken requests. Is there a
way we can teach him to use the pictures without discouraging his speech?
3. It appears that you are beginning at the first stage of PECS. It is
my understanding that the initial stages of PECS are meant to be used
with children who do not speak, and that the progression of the PECS
program is meant to encourage speech development. As my child already
displays an ability to request vocally, should you not begin at a later
stage - perhaps one where his spoken request is paired with the PEC
symbol instead of replaced by the symbol, as it is currently being taught?
-Janna
--
Autistic Spectrum Code v.1.0
AC> d- s+: a- c+ p+ t f S+ !p e++>+++ h>+ r->* n++ i P>++ m->++ M+>++
ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada
BMus, BAPsych
***************************************************************************
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John Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)
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SumBuny
"Pierre Abbat" <fes...@ixazon.dynip.com> wrote in message
news:6mekcb...@ixazon.dynip.com...
> If my child weren't speaking (and even if he were) (not that I have any
> children yet) I'd much rather he learn sign language than PECS. (btw,
> that's Picture Exchange Communication System. I thought it was a Hungarian
> word and had to look it up.) Sign language is a complete language, with a
> grammar quite different from any spoken language. It'll stretch his mind
as
> well as give him a way to communicate that's easier than speaking.
<nodding> I mentioned this in another thread ("Bright Idea"). My son (now
13 ADHD/gifted/aspergers/SID) used some simple American Sign Language (ASL)
when in pre-k early intervention, to facilitate communication while
receiving speech therapy....we used some signs throughout the years in
"quiet places" such as church.
I took up ASL last year, while in college (needed a foreign language). I
discussed this with my instructor, who said that many non-verbal students
use ASL, SEE (signed exact English), and PSE (pidgen signed English-a kind
of cross between ASL and SEE, but closer to the latter). You are SO right
about ASL having its own grammer, its own vocabulary, its own syntax...while
I was learning it, I sometimes could feel my brain "snap" from one to the
other, since it is such a different way of thinking.
For a person who is a visual learner, and/or a kinesthetic learner, ASL
comes much easier, because it is a visual/kinesthetic language, nor an
oral/aural one like spoken ones...
An article on the subject can be found at
http://deafness.about.com/cs/culturefeatures3/a/nonverbal.htm The site is a
great one for Deaf studies and for ASL studies. The guide to the site is a
graduate for Gaulladet, Jaimie Berke. There is also an associated,
moderated forum.
Buny
Kalen
>
> If my child weren't speaking (and even if he were) (not that I have any
> children yet) I'd much rather he learn sign language than PECS. (btw,
> that's Picture Exchange Communication System. I thought it was a Hungarian
> word and had to look it up.) Sign language is a complete language, with a
> grammar quite different from any spoken language. It'll stretch his mind as
> well as give him a way to communicate that's easier than speaking.
It may stretch the mind in ways that the autistic mind just won't go,
which may very well be the reason they aren't speaking in the first
place. It's generally *not* a problem with "English" (or whatever
language) which another language (e.g. Sign language) would help, but a
fundamental problem with all language or the concept and motivation to
communicate. PECS teaches the meaning and value of communication.
Simplified sign such as Makaton can work similarly, but is not
specifically designed for that purpose specifically for autistic
children as PECS is. The only time I would see full sign language as a
viable alternative to speech for an autistic is if they have problems
specifically with speech production, e.g. dyspraxia or sensory issues,
rather than a communication or language deficit.
caroline And Martyn
to just hand over the pecs card saying the key word and non of the the other
words.
the other words are important to me, they are the "can I have" "I want"
before he gets to the key word (juice)
I did ask them briefly, they said initially they will not require a sentence
as it may be confusing for him, being as he is just starting pecs,
eventually they will use sentences.
Anyway theres no escaping pecs , he is due to start a special school in
september and the school works on the pecs system.
caz
"Janna Hoskin" <treat...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:bckvg4$k6grp$1...@ID-198010.news.dfncis.de...
Sue Neale
> I dont have a problem with pecs, just a problem with them "preferring" him
> to just hand over the pecs card saying the key word and non of the the
other
> words.
> the other words are important to me, they are the "can I have" "I want"
> before he gets to the key word (juice)
> I did ask them briefly, they said initially they will not require a
sentence
> as it may be confusing for him, being as he is just starting pecs,
> eventually they will use sentences.
My son is 6 and they still talk occassionally about teaching him PECS as an
supplemental communication skill. While his language is still developing
(it is quite good now although intelligbility can still be an issue) the
concern is that he doesn't have all the words he needs to express himself
fully or if he can't make himself understood then he could use it to
supplement speech. Another reason it is being looked at is for EF issues,
if he has clear pictures showing him the routine esp at school, this could
help his independence in transitions from one task to another.
Sue, who taught him signed english at 18mths of age.
Tracy Mentis
language development has come to a plateau. But if the therapists are
properly trained to use them they would know that when proper verbalization
is made the child should not be using the pecs. If your son is able to to
Say "I want juice" he should get his juice if on the other hand he says
Juice that's when he should be taken to the book to create his sentence. If
they are starting Pecs then they sould be choosing things that he doesn't
know as reiforcement or they should be working with more specifics like
juice color choices.
Check out this website www.pecs.com they have a training manual available
and host training sessions for therapists and parents. PECS aren't just
tools it is a system and the therapists need to be trained in it. When we
finally recieved training we found out that we were doing a lot of stuff
wrong this might be a great site to refer the therapists to and if you can
get training in your area that would be superb.
Tracy
Sue Neale
"Tracy Mentis" <tement...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:Y9FHa.121136$G_.5...@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> We have been using pecs for a year. Their a great tool especially when
> language development has come to a plateau. But if the therapists are
> properly trained to use them they would know that when proper
verbalization
> is made the child should not be using the pecs. If your son is able to to
> Say "I want juice" he should get his juice if on the other hand he says
> Juice that's when he should be taken to the book to create his sentence.
If
> they are starting Pecs then they sould be choosing things that he doesn't
> know as reiforcement or they should be working with more specifics like
> juice color choices.
His language is going ahead in leaps and bounds but his articulation is
still quite poor. It is more to remove any frustration in communication at
school that it gets discussed from time to time and for the EF issues. I
understand about 90% of what he says, at school they understand around
70-80%, it would be used if introduced to supplement his developing
language.
For the EF issues it would be used as a visual aid to assist him in being
more autonomous in class, I have no problems with the reasons they are
considering, as it can only help to raise his self esteem in communication
and social issues.
> Check out this website www.pecs.com they have a training manual available
> and host training sessions for therapists and parents. PECS aren't just
> tools it is a system and the therapists need to be trained in it. When we
> finally recieved training we found out that we were doing a lot of stuff
> wrong this might be a great site to refer the therapists to and if you can
> get training in your area that would be superb.
Our therapist is trained, she is looking at complimenting his overall
communication. Also she wants him to blend in to the classroom more by not
needing constant verbal prompts to do everyday things. It would not be used
for primary communication as this is not required.
Thanks though for the links and advice :)
Sue
>
> Tracy
>
>