Perhaps worst Web Site Ever.
Jim Tom Polk
least the front page, that I've ever seen.
First, in Netsape, it looks pretty bad. In fact, some versions of the
Netscape 4.x browsers will not display the page at all.
Secondly, there is an animated graphic of a jail door slamming that is,
ah-hm, 3.1 Megabytes in size.
The site??
The webmasters response to this was:
> Jim - I am aware of these issues of course, but I have certain design parameters which I am directed to follow; and I have to balance this against the cost effectiveness of time spent designing a website which reaches all users vs. the majority.
<<<
I'm sure that the folks in Arizona can feel proud of their tax dollars
at work.
--
Jim Tom Polk -:- jtp...@texas.net -:- http://camalott.com/~jtpolk/
''You might as well fall flat on your face as
lean over too far backwards.'' --James Thurber--
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three
elements: energy, matter and enlightened self-interest."
- G'Kar "Survivors"
Jim Hollomon
wrote:
>This one takes the cake for perhaps being the worst web site, or at
>least the front page, that I've ever seen.
>
>First, in Netsape, it looks pretty bad. In fact, some versions of the
>Netscape 4.x browsers will not display the page at all.
>
>Secondly, there is an animated graphic of a jail door slamming that is,
>ah-hm, 3.1 Megabytes in size.
>
>The site??
>
>http://www.adc.state.az.us/
>
>
It is a never-ending source of encouragement to me to see what even
complete ninnies can earn doing web development.
Jim Hollomon
Web Developer
revjack
: The site??
Great Googly Moogly!
: The webmasters response to this was:
:> Jim - I am aware of these issues of course, but I have
:>certain design parameters which I am directed to follow; and
:>I have to balance this against the cost effectiveness of
:>time spent designing a website which reaches all users vs.
:>the majority.
Does this awareness of balance mean it's okay to keep all
the site's submitted form data, including resumes, job
salaries, home addresses etc. in a wide-open directory
(_private, thank you Microsoft) where anyone can read them?
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
simon.windisch
Kate Wintjen
>
> This one takes the cake for perhaps being the worst web site, or at
> least the front page, that I've ever seen.
>
> First, in Netsape, it looks pretty bad. In fact, some versions of the
> Netscape 4.x browsers will not display the page at all.
>
> Secondly, there is an animated graphic of a jail door slamming that is,
> ah-hm, 3.1 Megabytes in size.
3.1MB?! Boy, and here I was thinking it'd be a good idea to get my pictures
below 50K in size... Silly me! :)
>
> The site??
>
> http://www.adc.state.az.us/
>
> The webmasters response to this was:
>
> > Jim - I am aware of these issues of course, but I have certain design parameters which I am directed to follow; and I have to balance this against the cost effectiveness of time spent designing a website which reaches all users vs. the majority.
Should someone explain to him that the majority of those using the site won't
necessarily have ethernet/ISDN/DSL and be able to load pictures of that huge
size in a reasonable amount of time? I don't even want to think about how much
time it might take on a 56K modem (or, worse yet, 33.6K or 28.8K) just to load
one image of that size. I think if he explained this in small words to whoever
gave him the "design parameters" that he could convince them that images of
that size are ridiculous. Big animated gifs can be neat, and cute, and funny,
etc., but not if you try loading the picture for 5+ minutes, give up, hit stop,
and go somewhere else. Geez! They need to hire a new webmaster if he can't
figure that out, and a new design person/team if they don't know better either.
I didn't look; is the website being written in something awful like Front
Page? That's the first tip for him: maybe use Front Page (better yet
DreamWeaver instead) to initially write the code, then go in manually and clean
it up some.
Laddy
David Baker
brucie
"Jim Tom Polk" <jtp...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3A9D71F2...@texas.net...
> Secondly, there is an animated graphic of a jail door slamming that is,
> ah-hm, 3.1 Megabytes in size.
>
smux2x.gif: 3.03mb
14 hops @ 44.3k: 20 minutes, 17 seconds to download.
after optimizing about: 500k
bb
--
Brucies Buttons
http://www.brucies.com/
Free Web Buttons for Your Site.
Gary Meadows
"revjack" <rev...@revjack.net> wrote in message
news:97jv57$kd9$1...@news1.Radix.Net...
:-)
I wonder if http://www.adc.state.az.us/_private/DeathRow/DeathRow.htm.cnt is
a count of something...
> --
> ___________________
> rev...@revjack.net
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"Jim Hollomon" <ET...@etproductions.com> wrote in message
news:3a9e7caf...@news.exis.net...
A true professional never riducles the works of others in his business. A
true professional knows that sometimes the "programmer" is limited by what
the boss tells him/her to do.
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"Jim Tom Polk" <jtp...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3A9D71F2...@texas.net...
> This one takes the cake for perhaps being the worst web site, or at
> least the front page, that I've ever seen.
>
> First, in Netsape, it looks pretty bad. In fact, some versions of the
> Netscape 4.x browsers will not display the page at all.
>
> Secondly, there is an animated graphic of a jail door slamming that is,
> ah-hm, 3.1 Megabytes in size.
>
> The site??
>
> http://www.adc.state.az.us/
>
>
> The webmasters response to this was:
>
> > Jim - I am aware of these issues of course, but I have certain design
parameters which I am directed to follow; and I have to balance this against
the cost effectiveness of time spent designing a website which reaches all
users vs. the majority.
> <<<
>
> I'm sure that the folks in Arizona can feel proud of their tax dollars
> at work.
>
>
Before you insult others, take a look at your creations in glorious 256
color mode, fix them and then come back and ridicule others. I am not going
to point to pages or sites, but get your own house in order first before you
start bashing others.
revjack
: A true professional never riducles the works of others in his business.
LOL! Do you ever read what you write, or do you just type
whatever floats into your rotted, rejected brainpan whenever
it appears?
LOL!
Troll.
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
Ryan
God, that is by far the worst page I have ever seen. Every single aspect of
the page is AWFUL from the bold+italic+green mouseovers that shift all the
other menu items around to the HUGE animated gif of the door.
These site makes me seasick.
"B.P. - iSpelunker.com" <nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:eEin6.3589$%4.36...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
simon.windisch
is
> a count of something...
I think that all those cnt files are hit counts ;)
simon.windisch
> the boss tells him/her to do.
B.P,
If you are indeed the author then could you help us learn more
about the business by taking us step by step through the
page, outlining which decisions were taken by yourself and
which were specified. Did your client specify file sizes, colors,
alignment etc?
Simon
wp
Seems like he did a standard security test which NO website should fail, no
scripts run just being professional.
Alien Spawn
"Jim Tom Polk" <jtp...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3A9D71F2...@texas.net...
Gary Meadows
"simon.windisch" <simon.w...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:G_mn6.39$2c2....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
:-) I was just making light of the fact that a prison web site would have a
"DeathRow" count...but I suppose it's not really a laughing matter.
>
Jim Hollomon
Gosh, I'm feeling ridiculed here.
Jim Hollomon
Web Developer
Jason Cooke
i coudnt agree more! i have been developing for over 5 years now and to
this day i have to build pages that in my eyes look like total crap but
hey money is money and what i portray is this "the customer gets what
the customer wants" i can make suggestions but most of the time the person
can already see there page in there head and there is nothing you can do to
change it so what do you do? you shut and build there page and get your
money if you don't like it don't put your name on it....
Jason
"B.P. - iSpelunker.com" <nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:eEin6.3589$%4.36...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Tim Larson
>
> This one takes the cake for perhaps being the worst web site, or at
> least the front page, that I've ever seen.
>
> First, in Netsape, it looks pretty bad. In fact, some versions of the
> Netscape 4.x browsers will not display the page at all.
It works great in Opera 5. It may not be the most aesthetically
pleasing site I've ever seen in my life, but it works.
> Secondly, there is an animated graphic of a jail door slamming that is,
> ah-hm, 3.1 Megabytes in size.
Yikes!
> The site??
>
> http://www.adc.state.az.us/
--
Tim Larson - web programming guru
Red 5 Interactive, Inc. - www.r5i.com
4549 Fleur Dr. Des Moines, IA 50321
simon.windisch
> this day i have to build pages that in my eyes look like total crap but
> hey money is money and what i portray is this "the customer gets
what
> the customer wants" i can make suggestions but most of the time the
person
> can already see there page in there head and there is nothing you can do
to
> change it so what do you do? you shut and build there page and get your
> money if you don't like it don't put your name on it....
I agree, http://www.kesmarketing.co.uk/ is not one I'm proud
of, but it looks just like the bits of paper that were given to me.
I think, however, that I'd be more circumspect about personally
attacking critics of the site.
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"Jason Cooke" <jrc...@hardynet.com> wrote in message
news:97llgf$dtik$1...@news3.infoave.net...
> B.P.
> i coudnt agree more! i have been developing for over 5 years now and to
> this day i have to build pages that in my eyes look like total crap but
> hey money is money and what i portray is this "the customer gets
what
> the customer wants" i can make suggestions but most of the time the
person
> can already see there page in there head and there is nothing you can do
to
> change it so what do you do? you shut and build there page and get your
> money if you don't like it don't put your name on it....
>
Yup, the client or boss gets what the client or boss wants and you get your
money.
I expect this type of behaviour from some people in this group as they never
have much good to say about anything, but when I see a developer act this
way, it is just totally bewildering as you would expect a developer to
understand what developers have to suffer through sometimes.
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
Which part of "the works of others in his business" didn't you understand.
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"wp" <wa...@welshnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Btpn6.5165$GB4....@news11-gui.server.ntli.net...
Gee I didn't know the Arizona department of corrections hired revjack to
perform security tests on their web server.
Like I said, script kiddie
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
Which part of "..a true professional knows that sometimes the "programmer"
is limited by what the boss tells him/her to do." states that I am the
author?
Unlike you, I am not ashamed of my work and do not hide it.
If you want lessons about running a business, contact
consu...@ispelunker.com and I am sure arrangements can be made to assist
you in achieving your goals.
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"Ryan" <ryanf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:H_mn6.1781$GD.7...@typhoon.snet.net...
> Yeah, but a PROFESSIONAL would never let their work fall to that level...
> God, that is by far the worst page I have ever seen. Every single aspect
of
> the page is AWFUL from the bold+italic+green mouseovers that shift all the
> other menu items around to the HUGE animated gif of the door.
The true professional will build the site to the specs the client or the
boss wants, and collect his check
If the sherriff wanted a 3mb animated jail door, then the sherriff got a 3mb
jail door.
>
> These site makes me seasick.
Then do not go there, not too difficult to solve your problem is it.
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
> B.P. - iSpelunker.com <nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>
> : A true professional never riducles the works of others in his business.
>
> LOL! Do you ever read what you write, or do you just type
> whatever floats into your rotted, rejected brainpan whenever
> it appears?
>
> LOL!
>
> Troll.
ROTFLMFAO, you are calling me a TROLL........................... BWAHAHA.
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
andy
way of using this wonderful medium ?
vampi
Richard Grevers
<eEin6.3589$%4.36...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, nospam...@ispelunker.com
said...
>
> A true professional never riducles the works of others in his business. A
> true professional knows that sometimes the "programmer" is limited by what
> the boss tells him/her to do.
>
closing, they wouldn't have said "and can it be really big and slow and shaky?" Even avi
would have been smaller than that gif!
simon.windisch
> way of using this wonderful medium ?
>
> vampi
I think you're wasting your "breath" vampi.
B.P., prove to me I'm right.
alternate address
<nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>
>"revjack" <rev...@revjack.net> wrote in message
>news:97kgck$19q$4...@news1.Radix.Net...
>> B.P. - iSpelunker.com <nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>>
>> : A true professional never riducles the works of others in his business.
>>
>> LOL! Do you ever read what you write, or do you just type
>> whatever floats into your rotted, rejected brainpan whenever
>> it appears?
>>
>> LOL!
>>
>> Troll.
>
>ROTFLMFAO, you are calling me a TROLL........................... BWAHAHA.
Holy shit,
I leave these groups for months (formerly jonceramic/Jon S.), only to
come back and find old BP still at it.
Some things never change.
Jon
Jim Hollomon
<nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>
>Yup, the client or boss gets what the client or boss wants and you get your
>money.
>
>I expect this type of behaviour from some people in this group as they never
>have much good to say about anything, but when I see a developer act this
>way, it is just totally bewildering as you would expect a developer to
>understand what developers have to suffer through sometimes.
>
Aha. So if a doctor is a "true professional," he disregards anything
his medical training tells him and doesn't even bother with such
"diversions" as an examination or consultation. He merely asks the
client what medicines and treatments to prescribe, then does slavishly
as told.
And of course, your version of a "true professional" highway engineer
would take the Mafia boss' word for it that plain old mud will do just
fine as a substitute for concrete when building a bridge. After all,
it's not this "true professional's" fault the bridge collapses killing
dozens of commuters. His client told him to do it that way.
If that's your idea of professionalism, heaven help those clients who
aren't smart enough regarding web design to give you proper guidance.
Jim Hollomon
Web Developer
revjack
: If the sherriff wanted a 3mb animated jail door, then the sherriff got a 3mb
: jail door.
If his fly was open, would you tell him?
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
revjack
: I expect this type of behaviour from some people in this group as they never
: have much good to say about anything, but when I see a developer act this
: way, it is just totally bewildering as you would expect a developer to
: understand what developers have to suffer through sometimes.
Then unsubscribe from ciwah, not too hard to solve your problem is it.
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
ShapShankly
following on from the above, if you do not add any creativity to a project
then why should you build the site at all?
surely the client has come to the design agency with a view to getting the
best site possible. if you do not add to the ideas and create a site that
you look at and think "this could be better" then you've let your client
down, as they haven't got the best possible site for their money.
yes, the client is always right, in their set field. they aren't design
professionals, if they were they wouldn't be coming to you as the agency.
they always want something that is the best. if you don't produce "the
best" you've not done your job and you're not a good designer.
what sort of ethics do you employ if you do not act in the interest of your
employers, for the sake of getting paid? to me, that is like a builder
taking money for building a house with no roof, because your client didn't
specify that it had to have one. Everyone knows a house has to have a roof,
but just because the client didn't say so you haven't built one. everyone
knows that when somebody approachs you to build a site they have done so
because they think that you will build them a "professional" site. not just
give them a version of their "amateur" design that they used to explain how
they thought the mood and feel of the site might be achieved, and amateur
design that they gave to you with a view to your experience and skill being
used to turn the amateur into a professional. that is just arrogant, and
you're gloating because you know (or think you know) better than your client
and can't be bothered to guide them in their pursuit of a good web-site.
there will always be constraints on the design, company colours, corporate
identity, target market, etc. etc. but the designer should always strive to
produce something that is, at the time, outstanding. you are in charge of
this company's/person's image.
ShapShankly
ShapShankly
Alien Spawn <inva...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3a9e2623$0$25505$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
Never said it was a problem did I.
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
> In comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html B.P. - iSpelunker.com
<nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>
> : If the sherriff wanted a 3mb animated jail door, then the sherriff got a
3mb
> : jail door.
>
> If his fly was open, would you tell him?
No I would remind you to zip it up after you were done.
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
> On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 02:05:12 GMT, "B.P. - iSpelunker.com"
> <nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Yup, the client or boss gets what the client or boss wants and you get
your
> >money.
> >
> >I expect this type of behaviour from some people in this group as they
never
> >have much good to say about anything, but when I see a developer act this
> >way, it is just totally bewildering as you would expect a developer to
> >understand what developers have to suffer through sometimes.
> >
> Aha. So if a doctor is a "true professional," he disregards anything
> his medical training tells him and doesn't even bother with such
> "diversions" as an examination or consultation. He merely asks the
> client what medicines and treatments to prescribe, then does slavishly
> as told.
Do you take alot of drugs?
>
> And of course, your version of a "true professional" highway engineer
> would take the Mafia boss' word for it that plain old mud will do just
> fine as a substitute for concrete when building a bridge. After all,
> it's not this "true professional's" fault the bridge collapses killing
> dozens of commuters. His client told him to do it that way.
Yup, i think you do.
>
> If that's your idea of professionalism, heaven help those clients who
> aren't smart enough regarding web design to give you proper guidance.
Looks like you missed the point completely. Enjoy your ignorance
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"ShapShankly" <yvette...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:mOWn6.3616$925.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Money has no creativity
>
> surely the client has come to the design agency with a view to getting the
> best site possible. if you do not add to the ideas and create a site that
> you look at and think "this could be better" then you've let your client
> down, as they haven't got the best possible site for their money.
Surely the client could pay a design house and then come to a programmer to
actually build the thing, sure the client might draw it out themselves and
wany a programmer to make it. Surely a check gets cashed just as quick
whether you used your own creativity or you did it wexactly as the client
wanted.
>
> yes, the client is always right, in their set field. they aren't design
> professionals, if they were they wouldn't be coming to you as the agency.
> they always want something that is the best. if you don't produce "the
> best" you've not done your job and you're not a good designer.
Not every developer is a designer, not every develper even cares about
designing. some do, and some don't, and even some others will provide a
combination of design and developement.
You can produce the best thing in the world, if it is not what the client
wants, you wasted your time.
>
> what sort of ethics do you employ if you do not act in the interest of
your
> employers, for the sake of getting paid? to me, that is like a builder
> taking money for building a house with no roof, because your client didn't
> specify that it had to have one. Everyone knows a house has to have a
roof,
> but just because the client didn't say so you haven't built one. everyone
> knows that when somebody approachs you to build a site they have done so
> because they think that you will build them a "professional" site. not
just
> give them a version of their "amateur" design that they used to explain
how
> they thought the mood and feel of the site might be achieved, and amateur
> design that they gave to you with a view to your experience and skill
being
> used to turn the amateur into a professional. that is just arrogant, and
> you're gloating because you know (or think you know) better than your
client
> and can't be bothered to guide them in their pursuit of a good web-site.
So let me get this straight, the client (or boss) dictates what they want
done and you wil ignore them and build it the way you think it should be
done. Not very bright as that is the first way to piss off a client and
ensure no future work.
There are many people who have to have it their way or no way and some of
these people end up being clients. The smart thing to do is oblige them and
wait for the complaints to come in and then go confront the client based
upon what the users say. Armed with a bunch of client complaints, you are
better leveraged to pursuade the client that they are not right. This is in
any business. Hell I used to let clients lose lots of money in the market
because they wouldn't listen. After a few losses they finally realized they
need you because they suck at it. Those clients ended up being the best
clients. Some times the only way for people to learn is the hard way.
Yes most clients will take what you say under advisement, but not all.
Woudl you toss perfectly good money because the client wanted things exactly
a certain way?
Furthermore, how do you know the webmaster is not a victim of a dot bomb and
just took the job to keep money on the table to support his three kids and
wife. Obviously stern moral objection would end up on the unemployment line
and his kids would starve.
>
> there will always be constraints on the design, company colours, corporate
> identity, target market, etc. etc. but the designer should always strive
to
> produce something that is, at the time, outstanding. you are in charge of
> this company's/person's image.
Yes should, but is not always possible.
I will promise you one thing, post a few of the sites you developed here and
ask for a review and watch your work be ripped to shreds because a few
ignorant and arrogant people didn't like your design. Make sure it has
flash and lots of javascript.
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"alternate address" <alt...@nospammiesno.swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3a9fb9cd...@news.swbell.net...
Nope
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"Richard Grevers" <newsfe...@dramatic.co.nz.remove> wrote in message
news:MPG.150a4077c...@news.xtra.co.nz...
AVI is not universally supported, GIF is (well almost anyway).
What amazes me is that most people in here cannot put two and two together.
The site is for the Arizona Dept of Correction. It should not take a rocket
scientist to figure out what the webmaster has to go through to just get
approval for one color change, let alone to change the format.
It is a damn goverment agency for crying out loud, what does that mean?
That means the agency decides what it wants and keeps a webmaster on salary
to execute their wishes.
How hard is it to figure out the webmaster is probably stuck in an
unenviable position. Not very.
B.P.
http://www.ispleunker.com/
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"andy" <vamp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a9f6f95$0$179$5a62...@news.skynet.be...
> Isn't it the job of the developer also to convince the client of a better
> way of using this wonderful medium ?
It's a damn government agency, there is no convincing.
revjack
: "andy" <vamp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: news:3a9f6f95$0$179$5a62...@news.skynet.be...
:> Isn't it the job of the developer also to convince the client of a better
:> way of using this wonderful medium ?
: It's a damn government agency, there is no convincing.
Wrong-o.
RJ, Voice of Experience
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
revjack
: "revjack" <rev...@revjack.net> wrote in message
Actually, you did.
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
revjack
: "Richard Grevers" <newsfe...@dramatic.co.nz.remove> wrote in message
: news:MPG.150a4077c...@news.xtra.co.nz...
:> One fine day in the middle of the night,
:> <eEin6.3589$%4.36...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
: nospam...@ispelunker.com
:> said...
:> >
:> > A true professional never riducles the works of others in his business.
: A
:> > true professional knows that sometimes the "programmer" is limited by
: what
:> > the boss tells him/her to do.
:> >
:> I'm sure that while the client might have asked for an animated graphic of
: a jail door
:> closing, they wouldn't have said "and can it be really big and slow and
: shaky?" Even avi
:> would have been smaller than that gif!
:>
: AVI is not universally supported, GIF is (well almost anyway).
: What amazes me is that most people in here cannot put two and two together.
: The site is for the Arizona Dept of Correction. It should not take a rocket
: scientist to figure out what the webmaster has to go through to just get
: approval for one color change, let alone to change the format.
You haven't made any government sites yet, have you? It's
not as hard as you think, if you know how to speak Pink.
: It is a damn goverment agency for crying out loud, what does that mean?
You're whining again. tsk
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
Tero Paananen
>> > If that's your idea of professionalism, heaven help those clients who
>> > aren't smart enough regarding web design to give you proper guidance.
>>
>> following on from the above, if you do not add any creativity to a project
>> then why should you build the site at all?
>Money has no creativity
You're ripping your clients off.
-TPP
wp
"Tero Paananen" <p11...@ee.tut.fi> wrote in message
news:97pv1t$q7d$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi...
I would have to agree, this is a complete lack of professionalism.
wp
> In comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html B.P. - iSpelunker.com
<nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>
> : "andy" <vamp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> : news:3a9f6f95$0$179$5a62...@news.skynet.be...
> :> Isn't it the job of the developer also to convince the client of a
better
> :> way of using this wonderful medium ?
>
> : It's a damn government agency, there is no convincing.
>
> Wrong-o.
Especially for a Government agency you have a duty of care to ensure that
they are aware of "Best Practice" etc.
If I had designed that site for a Govt. agency in the UK I would expect to
be taken to court over it, there would be no doubt in my mind that I acted
negligently.
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"wp" <wa...@welshnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:h15o6.9422$GB4....@news11-gui.server.ntli.net...
If my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle. That site isn't in the UK, it is
in the US.
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
Oh and now you are going to say you are the expert in designing governemtn
sites. You have a serious misunderstanding of how governement agencies work
>
> : It is a damn goverment agency for crying out loud, what does that mean?
>
> You're whining again. tsk
No I am not whining, if you and others are too dense to figure out that the
Arizona State Dept of Correction is a beauracracy and getting something
accomplished in a beauracracy is no simple task, that is your problem.
Don't let your ignorance permeate the group.
What is amazing is that you are so quick to ridicule others work, yet have
never demonstated even the slightest ability in this group. doesn't say a
lot of good things about you.
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
> In comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html B.P. - iSpelunker.com
<nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>
> : "andy" <vamp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> : news:3a9f6f95$0$179$5a62...@news.skynet.be...
> :> Isn't it the job of the developer also to convince the client of a
better
> :> way of using this wonderful medium ?
>
> : It's a damn government agency, there is no convincing.
>
> Wrong-o.
Wow, that sure is convincing.
Can you act like an intelligent person and explain why.
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
wp
"B.P. - iSpelunker.com" <nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:Faao6.10687$7Y1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
I would be VERY surprised if the US was that far behind the UK where
implementing best practice on govt. sites is concerned.
revjack
: "wp" <wa...@welshnet.co.uk> wrote in message
When's the last time you checked?
: That site isn't in the UK, it is
: in the US.
BP on the run again.
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
revjack
: "revjack" <rev...@revjack.net> wrote in message
Is that a question.
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
I think it was quite obvious.
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
That is your job.
>
> : That site isn't in the UK, it is
> : in the US.
>
> BP on the run again.
From what.
ShapShankly
B.P. - iSpelunker.com <nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
news:1cYn6.9509$%4.10...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
even if they did rip my work to shreds, so what. everyone's views can be
taken constructively. People always have negative criticism, if there
wasn't any then how would things get better?
> B.P.
> http://www.ispelunker.com/
>
>
>
>
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
<snip>
> even if they did rip my work to shreds, so what. everyone's views can be
> taken constructively. People always have negative criticism, if there
> wasn't any then how would things get better?
There is a big difference between constructive criticism and people getting
their jollies off of insulting you.
Do you really think a 100+ thread ( from a bunch of losers who are afraid to
post their own work) here throwing unsolicited insults at some website
author is appropriate
ShapShankly
>
> "ShapShankly" <yvette...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:CYso6.9271$925.8...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> > even if they did rip my work to shreds, so what. everyone's views can
be
> > taken constructively. People always have negative criticism, if there
> > wasn't any then how would things get better?
>
> There is a big difference between constructive criticism and people
getting
> their jollies off of insulting you.
well then that's their problem and not mine. If a lot of people think the
same thing then it's worth considering that there may be something that has
been implemented badly or is just wrong
>
> Do you really think a 100+ thread ( from a bunch of losers who are afraid
to
> post their own work) here throwing unsolicited insults at some website
> author is appropriate
i'll post my own work here. http://shanklynet.tsx.org yep it's got lots of
graphics, a wierd navigation method, buttons that don't work and a link to a
file that is down because i ran out of webspace, but that's because i
finished the general design last night and there are no other pages up or
proper information in the page that is up.
your comments can also be taken as insulting, like calling people losers.
> B.P.
> http://www.ispelunker.com/
>
>
>
Stephen
From all the people looking at the site as part of this huge thread the
people who commisioned it are going to think it is great and getting loads
of hits! :)
--
Stephen
(remove the SAFETY-PIN from my e-mail if you want to go that route)
ShapShankly
Stephen <s...@SAFETY-PINenterprise.net> wrote in message
news:B6C824F5.CA1C%s...@SAFETY-PINenterprise.net...
>
> From all the people looking at the site as part of this huge thread the
> people who commisioned it are going to think it is great and getting loads
> of hits! :)
>
>
as you said, it has worked a treat!
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
>
> B.P. - iSpelunker.com <nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote in message
> news:_lto6.14788$7Y1.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "ShapShankly" <yvette...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:CYso6.9271$925.8...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > even if they did rip my work to shreds, so what. everyone's views can
> be
> > > taken constructively. People always have negative criticism, if there
> > > wasn't any then how would things get better?
> >
> > There is a big difference between constructive criticism and people
> getting
> > their jollies off of insulting you.
>
> well then that's their problem and not mine. If a lot of people think the
> same thing then it's worth considering that there may be something that
has
> been implemented badly or is just wrong
You obviously have not been around this group for long. 5 or 6 people are
not a lot of people.
>
> >
> > Do you really think a 100+ thread ( from a bunch of losers who are
afraid
> to
> > post their own work) here throwing unsolicited insults at some website
> > author is appropriate
>
> i'll post my own work here. http://shanklynet.tsx.org yep it's got lots
of
> graphics, a wierd navigation method, buttons that don't work and a link to
a
> file that is down because i ran out of webspace, but that's because i
> finished the general design last night and there are no other pages up or
> proper information in the page that is up.
So you think this gives you the right to bash others.
>
> your comments can also be taken as insulting, like calling people losers.
As they were meant to be.
Jim Tom Polk
> color mode, fix them and then come back and ridicule others. I am not going
> to point to pages or sites, but get your own house in order first before you
> start bashing others
I don't consider people viewing my sites in 256 color mode. A couple of
years back, that was a major consideration, but not today. I work for an
ISP. As people have lugged in their cranky old computers for us to
install internet software upon, we made notes of how many colors they
were using. We decided that if two months went by, and nobody had a
computer with 256 colors (that we could install internet software
on...we did not count the one we didn't), we would drop that
consideration. That happened in late 1999.
Additionally, my complaint about the site I cited was not the colors.
Graphics and their aesthetics I have learned are just not that
important. The problems I was citing had to do do with two things:
1) The page flat out refuses to load in some versions of Netscape.
2) The size of the graphic on the front page is simply so very
enourmous.
Both of these are obstacles to being able to get at the content. Some
time back, I made my peace with what I consider ugly graphics, in that
the second most popular site I've ever designed is about as crappy
looking a site as I have ever done. This finally dawned upon me as I
looked over email after email talking about how easy it was to find
information on the site, with nary a work about the graphics that made
me cringe.
Considering my post: perhaps I was too hasty. The webmaster in question
has a boss, the boss says jump, and the boss signs the paycheck, and
(perhaps) the boss cannot hear what the webmaster has to say. Been
there, done that, hate it.
--
Jim Tom Polk -:- jtp...@texas.net -:- http://camalott.com/~jtpolk/
''You might as well fall flat on your face as
lean over too far backwards.'' --James Thurber--
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three
elements: energy, matter and enlightened self-interest."
- G'Kar "Survivors"
Jim Tom Polk
> AVI is not universally supported, GIF is (well almost anyway).
>
> What amazes me is that most people in here cannot put two and two together.
>
> The site is for the Arizona Dept of Correction. It should not take a rocket
> scientist to figure out what the webmaster has to go through to just get
> approval for one color change, let alone to change the format.
>
> It is a damn goverment agency for crying out loud, what does that mean?
> That means the agency decides what it wants and keeps a webmaster on salary
> to execute their wishes.
>
> How hard is it to figure out the webmaster is probably stuck in an
> unenviable position. Not very.
Unenviable position: true. However, the execution of the site still
leaves much to be desired. I also work with govermental sites, and the
ability to ''get things done'' varies almost as much as in business. Try
having a different director from the board take on imputing their ideas
about a web site every few months, then working up the mock ups, then
they lose interest since it requires a substantial effort.
The GIF could have been reduced in size to just 20 percent of the size
as posted. Many of the other problems of the front page (mainly the
problem with Netscape) could have easily been avoided by setting the
compatibility of FrontPage to both Netscape and MSIE
revjack
: Considering my post: perhaps I was too hasty. The webmaster in question
: has a boss, the boss says jump, and the boss signs the paycheck, and
: (perhaps) the boss cannot hear what the webmaster has to say. Been
: there, done that, hate it.
All to true, but: I refuse to believe that the person who
designed the Arizona site was told, "You must put a 3MB GIF
on the homepage". Everybody works with constraints, but come
on. I hope I'm not the only one here who sees his reply for
what it is, a responsibility dodge.
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
Jim Hollomon
It's even less likely that the boss told the designer to be sure to
post the names, addresses, and salary levels of the employees of the
prison system in an easily accessed place on their server.
We live in a day and age when moral relativity is gaining ground, and
it becomes unpopular to find anything "wrong." When it comes to web
design, however, there are some things that interfere with the purpose
to communicate. Adding a 3 meg graphic to a page is "wrong." Listing
sensitive personal information of employees in an unprotected
directory is "wrong." If there is no right and wrong of web design,
the very reason for this group's existence is called into question.
Jim
Ryan
> what it is, a responsibility dodge.
I absolutely agree. Everyone has rules they need to follow, but putting up a
god-awful
site and then saying "it's not my fault" is irresponsible.
I doubt any gov't documents specified "the background must be an awful fade,
while the links should go bold, italicized, change color AND rearrange the
other cells in the top nav bar."
--
Ryan Flynn
Practical web development/design
www.ryanflynn.com
Peter Bossley
--
---
Web site design and hosting for
http://www.naturalsculptures.com
If you are interested in a website for yourself, please feel free to ask any
questions.
"Jim Hollomon" <ET...@etproductions.com> wrote in message
news:3a9e7caf...@news.exis.net...
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:50:11 GMT, Jim Tom Polk <jtp...@texas.net>
> wrote:
>
> >This one takes the cake for perhaps being the worst web site, or at
> >least the front page, that I've ever seen.
> >
> >First, in Netsape, it looks pretty bad. In fact, some versions of the
> >Netscape 4.x browsers will not display the page at all.
> >
> >Secondly, there is an animated graphic of a jail door slamming that is,
> >ah-hm, 3.1 Megabytes in size.
> >
> >The site??
> >
> >http://www.adc.state.az.us/
> >
> >
> It is a never-ending source of encouragement to me to see what even
> complete ninnies can earn doing web development.
>
> Jim Hollomon
> Web Developer
ShapShankly
perhaps not, but me putting up my site in a very early part of construction
shows that i'm not afraid of showing the quality of my work. i've designed
a lot of sites, mostly for intranet use at a local college and a firm of
solicitors, and i've learned my trade.
lawyers are as bad, if not worse that a government department (my dad works
for one so don't start saying i don't know what it is like), because they
are control freaks and extremely hard to work with but still, they didn't
end up with an awful site with a 3Mb graphic on the front.
you certainly don't have the right to bash anyone, as you do not have the
ability to fairly consider another persons reasoned point of view.
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"ShapShankly" <shaps...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:K6Wo6.12677$mt.20...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> perhaps not, but me putting up my site in a very early part of
construction
> shows that i'm not afraid of showing the quality of my work. i've
designed
> a lot of sites, mostly for intranet use at a local college and a firm of
> solicitors, and i've learned my trade.
Which is good, it shows you have some integrity and have pride in your work.
>
> lawyers are as bad, if not worse that a government department (my dad
works
> for one so don't start saying i don't know what it is like), because they
> are control freaks and extremely hard to work with but still, they didn't
> end up with an awful site with a 3Mb graphic on the front.
There is a huge difference between the control freaks who are attorneys and
a governement beauracracy. Has nothing to do with control. it has
everyhting to organizational structure and the inherant inefficiencies of
beauracracies. Yes some governement agencies have managed to work around
the beauracracy, bu that is not the norm
>
> you certainly don't have the right to bash anyone, as you do not have the
> ability to fairly consider another persons reasoned point of view.
And who am I bashing?
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
> On 5 Mar 2001 16:21:02 GMT, revjack <rev...@revjack.net> wrote:
>
> >In comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html Jim Tom Polk <jtp...@texas.net>
wrote:
> >
> >: Considering my post: perhaps I was too hasty. The webmaster in question
> >: has a boss, the boss says jump, and the boss signs the paycheck, and
> >: (perhaps) the boss cannot hear what the webmaster has to say. Been
> >: there, done that, hate it.
> >
> >All to true, but: I refuse to believe that the person who
> >designed the Arizona site was told, "You must put a 3MB GIF
> >on the homepage". Everybody works with constraints, but come
> >on. I hope I'm not the only one here who sees his reply for
> >what it is, a responsibility dodge.
>
> It's even less likely that the boss told the designer to be sure to
> post the names, addresses, and salary levels of the employees of the
> prison system in an easily accessed place on their server.
It is also possible that if the Arizona Dept of Corrections knew you were
poking around their server that they just might pursue some actions against
you. What a hAcKeRz DooD U R, trimming a URL to browse a directory
>
> We live in a day and age when moral relativity is gaining ground, and
> it becomes unpopular to find anything "wrong." When it comes to web
> design, however, there are some things that interfere with the purpose
> to communicate. Adding a 3 meg graphic to a page is "wrong." Listing
> sensitive personal information of employees in an unprotected
> directory is "wrong." If there is no right and wrong of web design,
> the very reason for this group's existence is called into question.
There is nothing "wrong" with finding things which are wrong, but publically
ridiculeing someone who is not here to defend himself is not really a good
way to do it. If that person was sitting next to you at a bar, would you be
so vocal. No because you would probably end up getting your ass kicked.
IMO you are all a bunch of sissy cunts who pick on someone who is not here
to defend themselves
This group has no purpose other than for a few morons to profess themselves
experts and to ridicule things they do not like.
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
Maybe not, but if the boss said they wanted a full page screen of a jail
door closing, the only way to do it would be with such a large GIF. If you
are so talented, why don't you do a little charity work and achieve the same
effect with a few transparant images and DHTML. Are you up to the
challenge, or do you lack the ability to do anything other than ridicule
others work.
C'mon Revjack, you talk a lot of shit, lets see how much talent you really
have.
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"Jim Tom Polk" <jtp...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:3AA3B6F5...@texas.net...
> "B.P. - iSpelunker.com" wrote:
>
> > AVI is not universally supported, GIF is (well almost anyway).
> >
> > What amazes me is that most people in here cannot put two and two
together.
> >
> > The site is for the Arizona Dept of Correction. It should not take a
rocket
> > scientist to figure out what the webmaster has to go through to just get
> > approval for one color change, let alone to change the format.
> >
> > It is a damn goverment agency for crying out loud, what does that mean?
> > That means the agency decides what it wants and keeps a webmaster on
salary
> > to execute their wishes.
> >
> > How hard is it to figure out the webmaster is probably stuck in an
> > unenviable position. Not very.
>
> Unenviable position: true. However, the execution of the site still
> leaves much to be desired. I also work with govermental sites, and the
> ability to ''get things done'' varies almost as much as in business. Try
> having a different director from the board take on imputing their ideas
> about a web site every few months, then working up the mock ups, then
> they lose interest since it requires a substantial effort.
I am not arguing that the site leaves much to be desired. What is wrong is
the public ridicule of this individual for no other reason than to make a
few people feel better about themselves.
It seems to be the same people. Why don't they create the absolutely best
website and show us all how to do it. Probably because they cannot because
if they actually could, they would be quite happy with their own abilities
and not need to knock others abilities
>
> The GIF could have been reduced in size to just 20 percent of the size
> as posted. Many of the other problems of the front page (mainly the
> problem with Netscape) could have easily been avoided by setting the
> compatibility of FrontPage to both Netscape and MSIE
Lot's of things could have been done, but is it your place or my place or
anyone in this groups place to dictate how that site looks. Last time I
looked it was owned by the Arizona Dept of Corrections, and to be quite
honest, it should not look good, it should look exactly how the inmates will
be treated, as a waste of time and a waste of taxpayers money.
B.P.
http://www.ispelunker.com/
revjack
: "revjack" <rev...@revjack.net> wrote in message
What's in it for me?
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
Jim Hollomon
<nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>> It's even less likely that the boss told the designer to be sure to
>> post the names, addresses, and salary levels of the employees of the
>> prison system in an easily accessed place on their server.
>
>It is also possible that if the Arizona Dept of Corrections knew you were
>poking around their server that they just might pursue some actions against
>you. What a hAcKeRz DooD U R, trimming a URL to browse a directory
Your anger is rather amusing. Actually, I didn't hack their site at
all. I'm taking the word of others that this directory exists, and
have no earthly interest in viewing its contents. But had I found it,
the above method is not illegal hacking and I'd feel perfectly at ease
confessing my actions here, or even emailing the Arizona Dept of
Corrections to tell them of the potential security breach.
It appears that you are an angry young man intent on insults over
inquiry. And so, I happily award you my coveted <PLONK> award.
Jim
ShapShankly
btw, did you take a look, or not bother because you think that it will be
"inferior" to anything that you could produce
>
>
>
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
> On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:29:57 GMT, "B.P. - iSpelunker.com"
> <nospam...@ispelunker.com> wrote:
>
> >> It's even less likely that the boss told the designer to be sure to
> >> post the names, addresses, and salary levels of the employees of the
> >> prison system in an easily accessed place on their server.
> >
> >It is also possible that if the Arizona Dept of Corrections knew you were
> >poking around their server that they just might pursue some actions
against
> >you. What a hAcKeRz DooD U R, trimming a URL to browse a directory
>
> Your anger is rather amusing. Actually, I didn't hack their site at
> all. I'm taking the word of others that this directory exists, and
> have no earthly interest in viewing its contents. But had I found it,
> the above method is not illegal hacking and I'd feel perfectly at ease
> confessing my actions here, or even emailing the Arizona Dept of
> Corrections to tell them of the potential security breach.
There is no anger, no more anger than you portray in insulting and
ridiculing a person who isn't even here to defend themselves. Have I done
or said anything worse to you than you have done to this particular web
developer? Nope I haven't. Funny how it is okay when you go slapping
someone around, but when you get slapped you cry. Grow up.
You obviously have no conception of right and wrong., just because the
server is connected to the web does not give you right to browse any
directory you wish.
>
> It appears that you are an angry young man intent on insults over
> inquiry. And so, I happily award you my coveted <PLONK> award.
I am the angry youg man? I believe it is you who are insulting people who
are not even here to defend themselves. Now who exactly is the bitter
person?
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
You avoid making a further ass of yourself.
Oh and I don't post to alt.fan.revjack
You are really pathetic.
revjack
: Oh and I don't post to alt.fan.revjack
LOL
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
Kate Wintjen
But it's not illegal either, and your statement that they might "pursue some
actions" against anyone doing such holds no water. If they want the
information secure from people doing this, it is their responsibility to
protect it. Right or wrong, it should be obvious that when your site has
sensitive information, it should not be in a directory that anyone can look at,
and you can't fine or jail someone for doing just that.
B.P. - iSpelunker.com
"Kate Wintjen" <iamnot...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3AA65005...@crosswinds.net...
>
> But it's not illegal either, and your statement that they might "pursue
some
> actions" against anyone doing such holds no water. If they want the
> information secure from people doing this, it is their responsibility to
> protect it. Right or wrong, it should be obvious that when your site has
> sensitive information, it should not be in a directory that anyone can
look at,
> and you can't fine or jail someone for doing just that.
Hi Kate, why don't you go do it and then email the Arizona State Sherrif and
tell them that you just browsed their directory and retrieved sensitive
employee information. make sure you tell them that you took it upon your
own to enter any directory you felt like without a public link leading to
it. make sure you give them your phone number and address and real name.
make sure you let them know because it wasn't locked up that you are allowed
to take whatever information fromt heir server you wish. While you are at
it, CC it the FBI.
Some of us who were apparantly raised properly were taught that if it isn't
yours and you were not given explicit permission, then do not touch it.
Come to think of it, based on your logic, my back door is open. Does this
mean anyone can come in and take whatever they wish? Does this mean I
cannot ram a shotgun in their throat for intruding?
Oh look this car window is open, Kate told me if it is open you can take
whatever you want and shame on the owner for not locking it.
Kate Wintjen
>
> "Kate Wintjen" <iamnot...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
> news:3AA65005...@crosswinds.net...
> >
> > But it's not illegal either, and your statement that they might "pursue
> some
> > actions" against anyone doing such holds no water. If they want the
> > information secure from people doing this, it is their responsibility to
> > protect it. Right or wrong, it should be obvious that when your site has
> > sensitive information, it should not be in a directory that anyone can
> look at,
> > and you can't fine or jail someone for doing just that.
>
> Hi Kate, why don't you go do it and then email the Arizona State Sherrif and
> tell them that you just browsed their directory and retrieved sensitive
> employee information. make sure you tell them that you took it upon your
> own to enter any directory you felt like without a public link leading to
> it. make sure you give them your phone number and address and real name.
> make sure you let them know because it wasn't locked up that you are allowed
> to take whatever information fromt heir server you wish. While you are at
> it, CC it the FBI.
I never said I made a habit of doing this. I said that AFAIK there is no law
stating that it's illegal to do such. There have been times, for instance,
where someone's image showed as broken and I was curious to find out if there
was just a typo, and if so then I could still find out what image was
intended. Right-clicking and saying view image obviously wouldn't work, since
it would still try with what was typed into the page. So, view source, and
find out the location of the image they wanted, and see if that directory is
accessible, and if so if there is an image in that directory that is likely
what the author intended. Simple curiosity. It's not my fault if they happen
to also have secure data in there. According to you, what I just did should be
punishable by a fine, and/or jail time, and/or community service, etc., and a
mark on my police record. Hardly! Just as I get curious about something that
specific, people get curious about other things, perhaps "hmm, I wonder what
else is in this directory besides this particular news story/text file/etc."
Trying to prevent it by watching your logs to see who's looked at the directory
itself is absolutely not a solution. However, protecting access to the
directory is. Then, not only do you keep people from easily accessing
directories with pertinent information, it's easier to keep checking up on them
in case they're hacked.
>
> Some of us who were apparantly raised properly were taught that if it isn't
> yours and you were not given explicit permission, then do not touch it.
>
> Come to think of it, based on your logic, my back door is open. Does this
> mean anyone can come in and take whatever they wish? Does this mean I
> cannot ram a shotgun in their throat for intruding?
Actually, many thieves have gotten off scot-free because the place they robbed
had none of its doors locked while the people were either asleep overnight or
gone for the weekend. People who go with the idea that "well, they're going to
steal my stuff whether I lock up or not, so I'd rather not have them break my
windows" are just asking for no charges to be pressed, and possibly for the
police to maybe spend a little time looking for their belongings but not
bothering trying to find the thief, since they did nothing to prevent anyone
from coming in. Basically, it's treated as an unspoken invitation to leave
your house unlocked. Once you tell someone to leave, they'd better or they're
trespassing. And stealing is of course illegal. But, it's not "breaking and
entering" if your door is unlocked. You of course can ram a shotgun in their
throat if you find them trespassing (of course, you can't shoot them after they
step outside/are carried your door). But good luck if you're not home and
leave all your doors unlocked.
>
> Oh look this car window is open, Kate told me if it is open you can take
> whatever you want and shame on the owner for not locking it.
Hey, I always lock my car doors. I'm not stupid. When I had my POS 20 yr old
Horizon, and was living in a smaller town than the one I'm in now, I didn't
bother, especially after a winter that somehow messed up the locks & made them
stick if they're locked. I kept nothing in the car worth stealing, the most
expensive thing being an umbrella, and I'd have been amazed if anyone had
wanted to steal the car. I figure if they wanted it they could have it. The
car I have now is nicer, and I now live in a city rather than a town, so I lock
it. I don't assume that just because "it's not the right thing to do" people
won't steal my car or the stuff inside it. Just like it's not very intelligent
to assume that just because "it's not the right thing to do" to browse through
unprotected directories, no one will. I'd say it's just as wrong of whoever's
running their website to put sensitive information in an unprotected directory
(not to mention highly irresponsible) as it would be to go see what's in the
directory to begin with. I doubt the government would direct its anger to
those looking at the directories, especially once they find out the webmaster
could have protected them (I'm guessing they did mention to him that x,y,z
information is sensitive & should remain secure... he should've done more than
just password protect the "official" link to employee info w/ a login in that
case, since he ought to know that just that will not guard the information).
>
> B.P.
> http://www.ispelunker.com/
Kate Wintjen
>
> "B.P. - iSpelunker.com" wrote:
> >
> > "Kate Wintjen" <iamnot...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
> > news:3AA65005...@crosswinds.net...
> > >
> > > But it's not illegal either, and your statement that they might "pursue
> > some
> > > actions" against anyone doing such holds no water. If they want the
> > > information secure from people doing this, it is their responsibility to
> > > protect it. Right or wrong, it should be obvious that when your site has
> > > sensitive information, it should not be in a directory that anyone can
> > look at,
> > > and you can't fine or jail someone for doing just that.
> >
> > Hi Kate, why don't you go do it and then email the Arizona State Sherrif and
> > tell them that you just browsed their directory and retrieved sensitive
> > employee information. make sure you tell them that you took it upon your
> > own to enter any directory you felt like without a public link leading to
> > it. make sure you give them your phone number and address and real name.
> > make sure you let them know because it wasn't locked up that you are allowed
> > to take whatever information fromt heir server you wish. While you are at
> > it, CC it the FBI.
Oh, and BTW, it's tempting to inform them of just that, so that they can tell
their webmaster to protect the stinkin' directory. Or at least e-mail the
webmaster and tell him about it, since he's probably easier to get a hold of.
Dennis Guertin
"Kate Wintjen" <iamnot...@iamnotcrosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3AA7D6F6...@iamnotcrosswinds.net...
> "B.P. - iSpelunker.com" wrote:
> >
> > Oh look this car window is open, Kate told me if it is open you can take
> > whatever you want and shame on the owner for not locking it.
>
> Hey, I always lock my car doors. I'm not stupid. When I had my POS 20 yr
old
> Horizon, and was living in a smaller town than the one I'm in now, I
didn't
> bother, especially after a winter that somehow messed up the locks & made
them
> stick if they're locked
Off-topically, we've got a local bylaw that'll earn you a ticket for not
locking
your car.
Kate Wintjen
That's kinda sad, but at the same time could cut down on unlocked-car
thefts... Once, while still with my old car I had moved to where I am now, but
I still didn't care much about my car or anything in it, and so I still wasn't
locking it, and I found a note once from a police officer saying that my car
was inviting theft and that I ought to lock it.
I just chuckled to myself, because even if the car was stolen I'd probably only
report it to the police so they knew about the license plates, the insurance
company so they knew I didn't have it anymore & I didn't have to insure it
anymore, and the state so I didn't have to pay property tax on it anymore. If
the police happened to find it and get it back, great, but I think I'd have
missed my fuzzy dice & graduation tassles more (dice were a birthday present
right after I got it, since it was my first car, and I'd just gotten my
license).
J L
several in my time, lets be constructive, lets try and find 'THE VERY
WORST SITE EVER' and maybe even give it an award or something.
It might even end up with a cult following.
Jerry Muelver
wrote:
Can't be done. I tried, in 1994, with
http://hytext.com/worst/ but it was only days before my
worst efforts were bested.... best efforts were worsted...
whatever....
New unconscious geniuses hit the web every day, and some are
actually getting paid real money by someone who is even more
unconscious.
---- jerry
--
Jim Tom Polk
neighbors car is sitting driveway with the keys in it, unlocked, with a
laptop in the back, and that there are three neighborhood kids looking
over a fence at the car, and duck down as you walk up, would it be wrong
to walk up to the neighbors door and knock on it to tell them that they
might have forgot something.
I'm sure that holes galore can be poked into it, but so far when people
have reported security holes we have been very grateful, and when I have
found security holes in web sites, I have not only earned the graditude
of the site, but often have been rewarded. In fact, I got my first job
offer because I found a bunch of security holes in a system while poking
around it.
FYI: I'm the original poster of this thread, and I *have* gone and told
the webmaster about the hole that they have in their web site. So, they
can easily get my phone number, my address and my real name (which I'm
actually using).
"B.P. - iSpelunker.com" wrote:
>
> "Kate Wintjen" <iamnot...@crosswinds.net> wrote in message
> news:3AA65005...@crosswinds.net...
> >
> > But it's not illegal either, and your statement that they might "pursue
> some
> > actions" against anyone doing such holds no water. If they want the
>
> Hi Kate, why don't you go do it and then email the Arizona State Sherrif and
> tell them that you just browsed their directory and retrieved sensitive
> employee information. make sure you tell them that you took it upon your
> own to enter any directory you felt like without a public link leading to
> it. make sure you give them your phone number and address and real name.
Kate Wintjen
>
> On the other hand, if you are walking along sidewalk and see that your
> neighbors car is sitting driveway with the keys in it, unlocked, with a
> laptop in the back, and that there are three neighborhood kids looking
> over a fence at the car, and duck down as you walk up, would it be wrong
> to walk up to the neighbors door and knock on it to tell them that they
> might have forgot something.
>
> I'm sure that holes galore can be poked into it, but so far when people
> have reported security holes we have been very grateful, and when I have
> found security holes in web sites, I have not only earned the graditude
> of the site, but often have been rewarded. In fact, I got my first job
> offer because I found a bunch of security holes in a system while poking
> around it.
>
> FYI: I'm the original poster of this thread, and I *have* gone and told
> the webmaster about the hole that they have in their web site. So, they
> can easily get my phone number, my address and my real name (which I'm
> actually using).
Sounds like a good idea to me. And contrary to what B.P. suggests might
happen, I seriously doubt they'll come down on you for poking around, rather
than the gratefulness you usually find.
J L
On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 06:21:28 -0600, Jerry Muelver <je...@hytext.com>
wrote:
Jerry Muelver
wrote:
>not bad, but I get the feeling that you did it on purpose
>
Sussed again!
---- jerry
--
Jim Tom Polk
sensitive information freely available. Some sort of application for
jobs data. I went to the web site, and yeppers, the webmaster had not
secured this sensitive data with Front Page, so I sent him a little
email telling him that he had left it unsecured.
Today a Joe Ligi, a Criminal Investigator Supervisor with the Arizona
Department of Corrections contacted me and let me know that I am under
investigation by the Department and the District Attoney's office.
It seems that their position seems to be that by changing the URL, and
going somewhere NOT pointed to by a web page link, even though that
information was/is accessible, ah, well, I'm rather emotional right now.
It seems that Arizona has a law that if you access information that they
do not intend to be accessed, even if it is left in the public space of
a web server, then you they can do things to you.
He will be making his report to the DA, and then the DA takes it from
there.
For years, when I have found security holes, I reported them. In
Arizona, it seems that reporting them might end you up in jail.
It probably won't but the threat is enought.
---
Tero Paananen
>Today a Joe Ligi, a Criminal Investigator Supervisor with the Arizona
>Department of Corrections contacted me and let me know that I am under
>investigation by the Department and the District Attoney's office.
Cool.
Please let me know where I could report for breaking the law, too.
I did, after all, download everything from that site using my browser.
I'm sure the data is still in the file cache.
In fact, I think I'm going to report that serious security breach to the
same webmaster as well.
You wouldn't happen to have Joe Ligi's contact information at hand?
Email me.
-TPP
Kate Wintjen
>
> During this discussion, someone pointed out that the sever left
> sensitive information freely available. Some sort of application for
> jobs data. I went to the web site, and yeppers, the webmaster had not
> secured this sensitive data with Front Page, so I sent him a little
> email telling him that he had left it unsecured.
>
> Today a Joe Ligi, a Criminal Investigator Supervisor with the Arizona
> Department of Corrections contacted me and let me know that I am under
> investigation by the Department and the District Attoney's office.
>
> It seems that their position seems to be that by changing the URL, and
> going somewhere NOT pointed to by a web page link, even though that
> information was/is accessible, ah, well, I'm rather emotional right now.
>
> It seems that Arizona has a law that if you access information that they
> do not intend to be accessed, even if it is left in the public space of
> a web server, then you they can do things to you.
>
> He will be making his report to the DA, and then the DA takes it from
> there.
>
> For years, when I have found security holes, I reported them. In
> Arizona, it seems that reporting them might end you up in jail.
>
> It probably won't but the threat is enought.
Ouch! You'd think that since this involves webspace, and is therefore
available to the entire world to anyone who has web access, that they'd change
their tune a bit, since I doubt they're going to go to some other country just
to arrest someone who violated that law, especially since I doubt any sane
government would extradite the person for such a small indescretion (assuming
there's no reason to suspect they actually used said sensitive information). I
can't believe they'd rather spend time investigating someone than closing up a
security hole that should be relatively easy to close.
I'm curious about something regarding state laws & the internet: If a state
has a law saying gambling is illegal, and then a gambling website pops up
that's hosted in that state, I would of course assume the website itself is in
violation of the law. But could they actually arrest all the people from other
states, even other countries, just because they gambled on that site?
Especially since they wouldn't necessarily have had a clue where that site was
hosted from... Also, if it's illegal in a state to gamble, does it also follow
that it's illegal for a person who lives in that state to use a gambling site
that is hosted in a location (another state, or another country) where it is
legal? Would be interesting to find the answer to these questions, especially
the first one, since that might have bearing on how far state laws extend in
regards to the internet. If you weren't from AZ, for instance, would their law
still apply to you when accessing an AZ website? Tricky stuff, for sure.
Kate Wintjen
>
> During this discussion, someone pointed out that the sever left
> sensitive information freely available. Some sort of application for
> jobs data. I went to the web site, and yeppers, the webmaster had not
> secured this sensitive data with Front Page, so I sent him a little
> email telling him that he had left it unsecured.
>
> Today a Joe Ligi, a Criminal Investigator Supervisor with the Arizona
> Department of Corrections contacted me and let me know that I am under
> investigation by the Department and the District Attoney's office.
>
> It seems that their position seems to be that by changing the URL, and
> going somewhere NOT pointed to by a web page link, even though that
> information was/is accessible, ah, well, I'm rather emotional right now.
>
> It seems that Arizona has a law that if you access information that they
> do not intend to be accessed, even if it is left in the public space of
> a web server, then you they can do things to you.
>
> He will be making his report to the DA, and then the DA takes it from
> there.
>
> For years, when I have found security holes, I reported them. In
> Arizona, it seems that reporting them might end you up in jail.
>
> It probably won't but the threat is enought.
Also, I can't believe they would bother investigating you since if you were
after their sensitive information you wouldn't have bothered informing them of
their security hole in the first place, and they ought to be able to figure
that out... Talk about being too caught up with the letter of the law to
actually see the larger picture. He sounds like a stinkin' robot.
revjack
: Jim Tom Polk <jtp...@texas.net> writes:
:>Today a Joe Ligi, a Criminal Investigator Supervisor with the Arizona
:>Department of Corrections contacted me and let me know that I am under
:>investigation by the Department and the District Attoney's office.
: Cool.
: Please let me know where I could report for breaking the law, too.
: I did, after all, download everything from that site using my browser.
: I'm sure the data is still in the file cache.
You H4><0r3D th3r3 s1t3 with yuor WEB BROWSER? WHOAH!!!
--
___________________
rev...@revjack.net
Cail D.
Best of luck to you though, Jim Tom.
-Cail
"Kate Wintjen" <iamnot...@iamnotcrosswinds.net> wrote in message
news:3AB8FBE7...@iamnotcrosswinds.net...