009 questions, please enlighten me.
Explained
34PICT/3s? would it work fine with a 30PICT/3? are there any single carbs it
works well with? does the compufire electronic ignition compensate for the
flatspots or just make the coil obsolete?
I've seen a lot of complaints about the 009 but no solutions except "they're
great for racers". what's the deal with them? is this problem with bosch 009s
or all centrifugal advance distributors? is there an alternative to centrifugal
and vacuum advance distributors that works well? a friend of mine told me to
get a mechanical advance distributor but i haven't come across any - is this
the same as centrifugal?
I'm looking for the most reliable "distributor" system. any help would be
appreciated since this is the next part i plan to fix. i'd love a long in depth
answer because
T
'70 KG
Veeduber
The problem here is really quite simple: A purely mechanical-advance
distributor, one which uses centrifugal force to initiate ignition advance, can
ONLY respond to a change in the engine's speed.
There are two ways to make a spark-ignited engine increase its speed. You can
either feed it more fuel... and wait a bit. Or you can advance the firing
point... and get an immediate response.
If you use a centrifugal-advance distributor you must jack-up the output of
your accelerator pump so that each time you depress the accelerator you give
the engine a shot of raw gas. After the gasoline is atomized, carried to the
combustion chambers and burned... assuming you didn't give it too MUCH gas...
the speed of the engine will increase by some amount. Only then does the
centrifugal-advance distributor realize you are trying to make the engine go
faster.
Even so, it takes a bit of time for the bob-weights to overcome their inertia,
and for the energy stored in the bob-weights to be transferred to the advance
plate and for the firing point to be advanced, at which time things begin to
happen rather fast.
But there is a better way to do all this.
A vacuum-advance mechanism senses the drop in pressure across the venturi of
the carburetor. The instant your toe depresses the accelerator, the
distributor will sense the change... and begin advancing the firing point,
long before the accelerator pump has even come into play. From a combustion
stand-point, advancing the spark BEFORE adding the fuel is a far more efficient
way to achieve the goal, which is to make the engine run faster.
Here's the short version: Vacuum-advance responds to changes in the LOAD
placed on the engine. Mechanical-advance can only respond to a change in the
engine's speed. For an automobile, the vacuum-advance mechanism is the more
practical solution.
The truth is, the -009 is a pretty shoddy piece of goods. It was NEVER
installed as stock equipment on any Volkswagen but is actually an aftermarket
composite replacement for all of the early-model mechanical-advance
distributors (ie, the -010, -019, -031, etc)... and those were only used on a
few models of the VW bus(and some VW industrial engines), fitted with the 25hp
engine... which had to be spinning about three grand just to get out of its own
way. (GVW for the 1960 transporter was about 5200 pounds!)
Mechanical-advance distributors are fine for the drag strip, where you're
turning three grand before you even pop the clutch (surprisingly similar to
those early Transporters :-). And if you're running an after-market multi-carb
set-up, there may not be a vacuum pick-off, forcing you to use a
mechanicl-advance. And mechanicals do a good job on the engines coupled to
water pumps, generators and other industrial applications where the speed
stays fairly constant. But other than tractors and a few trucks, you'll have
to search long and hard to find a mechanical-advance distributor in a vehicle.
The truth is, if all of your driving was spent on the freeway at cruzing speed,
it doesn't really matter what kind of distributor you have -- it's fully
advanced at highway speed. But if you should ever have to stop... or shift
gears... or do anything that 22,000,000 Volkswagens were designed to do, you
will find you can do it better, more efficiently with a vacuum-advance
distributor.
Don't take my word for this. (Nor any other anonymous voice from the ether of
the Internet.) This is the sort of thing you really should look into for
yourself. There are things to learn here, important things that will have a
significant impact on the usefulness and longevity of your ride. And an
important lesson about the veracity of persons trying to sell you things.
-Bob Hoover
winnoc Potters
The accelerator pumpline was clogged as well.
I soaked the carb in thinner for a day; then i used airpressure to blow the dirt
out.
Replaced all gaskets etc (rebuilt carb).
The accelerator pump was working very good now, but still the engine seemed to
delay when i pressed the gaspedal, sometimes it would seem as if it had the hickups
before it accelerated or even died on me.
Power under load was almost nonexistant.
After reading the "Poor man's Weber" article I adjusted my carb.
I installed a new big tube extractor exhaust, took out the main jet and ran a .047
ribbed guitar string through it (about 20 times), while pulling it sideways. The
stainless steel is stronger than the copper, therefore it increased the jet size a
bit.
Next step was to close the hole in the throttle plate.
I sanded down the surface on both sides and used a torch and soldering wire to melt
it shut (on bith sides!!!).
I had to adjust the idle screw and idle speed screw afterwards, but man,
does this engine have power now!!!!!! It accelerates perfectly, with a deep growl.
Made me very happy.
Thanks Bob Donalds
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Gearhead's View of
The 009 Hesitation Blues '97
By Bob Donalds
When your original distributor fails, or if you just want to get
the latest and greatest, you reach for the fully centrifugal 009
distributor or one of its cousins. When the 009 is used with the
30-PICT-3 or any 34 PICT carburetor, problems begin to happen faster
than you can turn the adjustment screws. Where do you time the new
distributor? Do you use the old timing mark? What does the old timing
mark mean? Why won't my engine idle?
First, most original distributors in the dual port were designed
to run with an idle timing of 5 degrees ATDC (After Top Dead Center).
The 009 should be timed at 10 degrees BTDC (Before Top Dead Center).
Setting the 009 at a timing mark of 5 ATDC would give you an
inadequate advance of about 17 degrees total. Now your engine may idle
nicely but you risk melting a piston. The air cooled type 1, pre 72
type 2, and type 3 VW engine needs a total advance of 32 degrees BTDC.
This number is often disputed but it works for me. To check total
timing, I rev the engine with my timing light connected. The 0 degrees
mark should now end up at the fan belt where it lifts off the pulley.
When the 009 is set at 10 degrees, this timing change of 15 degrees
raises the idle so high you need to lower it by turning the idle speed
adjusting almost all the way. Naturally this shuts down the idle
circuit. The engine is now getting so little fuel; it barely idles. If
it does idle, it won't transition to the next carburetor circuit
without massive hesitation even with a good accelerator pump. Also,
the throttle plate if not closed at warm idle, will create the same
effect.
On the dual port crank pulley there is a dent on the opposite side
of the original timing mark and slightly to the right. I take the
middle of this dent as 0 degrees. Take the points of an open-end 15 mm
wrench and lay the left side of the wrench in the middle of the dent
and the right side will fall at approximately 10 degrees BTDC. File a
new notch at that spot, I then mark it with red touch-up paint.
The next step to a proper idle is to install a pop rivet in the
hole of the throttle plate. Trust me, it works. This is the brass
plate at the base of the carburetor that opens when you press the gas
pedal. Now all the air the engine draws in at a idle must come through
the idle circuit. You can now back out the idle speed adjusting screw,
restoring the idle by allowing enough air into the carburetor idle
circuits thereby picking up the fuel needed to obtain an idle. You can
now set the timing at 10 BTDC with your 009 distributor and have the
fuel needed for a stable idle and smooth transition to the high-speed
circuits.
When rebuilding engines, I lower my compression ratio to prevent
pre-ignition and overheating with a semi-hemi cut in the combustion
chamber. This allows me to run 2 to 4 degrees more timing without the
engine getting too hot. The carburetor might also need a larger main
jet.
Does the engine run out of power just past the idle at 1500 rpm or
so and putting the pedal to floor isn't much help? I find larger, main
jets commonly needed to help with this mid-range hesitation and
additonally can increase top end. My best guess for main jet size on a
otherwise stock engine is # 135 the carb comes stock with a # 127.5
unless it's a 71 type 2 then it's a #125.Gene Berg Enterprises is a
good source for main jets.
Changing the main jet to a larger size can improve gas mileage
because less gas pedal is needed to get up to speed. Rejetting is
common when running a non-stock exhaust. These exhaust lower the back
pressure and tend to lean the motor out. Of course before rejetting,
be sure you have reviewed the basic tune-up, having a proper
pre-heater for the carburetor below 50 degrees. Check your valve
adjustment and make sure you have enough compression for the motor to
idle. Any cylinder with under 100 pounds compression will not fire at
an idle. Tuning for performance is done one change at a time with a
fully warmed up engine, and the test drive is the measure of success.
The original timing set up with the idle settings at 5 degrees
BTDC was to reduce hydrocarbons for the now standard tail pipe
emission test. Be clear that the 009 distributor will increase tail
pipe hydrocarbons when timed . Depending on the emission laws where
you live, this can make the difference when trying to pass the tail
pipe sniff test.
[Image]~Boston Bob
Eric and Allison Allred
(and he included a lot!) is that the vacuum advance also helps to make
your choke work better. it does this by advancing your timing even
though your idle is still low. (helps burn up that extra fuel) this is
something that the 009 will never do. you can go do a lot of
modifications to your solex to get rid of the flat spot, but your choke
will never work as good as with a vacuum advance. one way to look at it
is this:
volkswagens came with a solex and a vacuum advance. they work together
to give you reliable performance. i dont know of any car company that
ever put a centrufigal (mechanical) advance on thier vehicles when they
left the factory. must be because all the auto manufacturers know that
vacuum works correctly. all those engineers in all those companies and
none of them thought it was a good idea. they did know the vacuum is a
good idea.
i honestly think the reason there is so many 009's out there is because
poeple see them being run on nice big motors or engines that are more
than stock and figure that if it makes those engines that put out more
power than stock run good, it must make my stocker perform better than a
stock vacuum advance. if volkswagen thought this, they would have done
it. another reason i think everyone runs them is they are extremely
easy to find. every one sells them left and right. i am still trying
to find somewhere that sells a vacuum advance distributor so i dont have
to go to junk yards and swapmeets to find one that needs to be rebuilt.
i used to be a die hard 009 fan, until i tried a vacuum advance (for the
hell of it) and my vw ran better than it ever did with a 009! dont get
me wrong, if i run an engine with anything other than a solex, i will go
009.
eric allred
66 euro westy
62 cal looker
59 euro with semaphores on 71 irs pan
66 extreem beater.
auss...@hello.net.au
I know you've had several answers already, but here's my 2 cents worth.
The Bosch 009 is a centrifugal (or mechanical if you like) advance
distributor. As Bob Hoover said - it senses engine revs but not engine
load (throttle position). It was first used on early VW buses where it
worked OK with the high revs and high thottle needed to move a low
geared heavy vehicle with a 1200cc engine, but was never used by VW on
beetles (ever wondered why?).
Timing and carbuation work together to give you a good fuel mix and a
spark at the right time for good power through a range of revs and load
conditions, and the 009 is missing that essential throttle sensing
capacity.
The 34PICT/3 and 30PICT/3, /4 have more complex and more accurate fuel
metering than the earlier 30PICT, 30 PICT/2 and 28PCI series carbies.
This means they are also more sensitive, and so they suffer flat spots
with the 'crude' 009 timing.
The earlier carbies have a cruder (less sensitive) mixture control
system, so they cope a little better with the cruder 009 timing -
less pronounced flat spots.
So why does everyone say "gotta use the 009"? Well - they are cheap,
and they do work (sort of), and they are cheap, and the mags all rave
about them, and they are cheap, and many of the vacuum units are old
and need rebuilding, and the 009s are cheap....
Speaking of the Mags - most of them talk about the 009 and "performance"
in the same breath. For performance you could read "high speed/high
revs", where of course the 009 does OK. Interesting thought isn't it.
And speaking of cheap, the 009s do vary from unit to unit in the quality
of build and in the amount of total advance. That's why you have to set
them at the max advance point (28-32 BTDC at 3000+rpm) and let the idle
setting fall where it may. Then because the idle setting might be off
the ideal, you have to fiddle the carby settings to even get it to
idle reliably. But they are cheap...
They are also a good source of shims necessary for rebuilding the vacuum
distributors - some old time VW mechanics use the 009 just for the shims
and throw the rest into the parts bin (cause they ARE cheap :-).
If you want to avoid the flat spots all together, stick with the correct
vacuum unit for your vehicle (there are several versions of both single
vacuum and double vacuum with different advance curves and different
vacuum rates to suit different VW engines), and together with the
factory standard setting for the carby, you'll have a sweet running engine.
Personally, I wouldn't swap my original (never replaced in 245,000
miles) single vacuum distributor for ten 009s! You said you wanted
"reliable", and that's what the original vacuum distributors are -
all 22,000,000 beetles came with them.
Re your question on Compufire or other electronic ignitions. There are
two sorts - the Capacitor Discharge (CDI) system, which uses the original
points as a low current trigger for the capacitors which fire a big
bucket of electrons through the original coil for a hotter spark. The
points rarely need adjusting (very little current to burn them), and
it's easy to return to it's original Kettering Ignition if the CDI
fails, as all the original parts are still there.
The other type is the Electronic Ignition, which replaces the points
with a magnetic or optical trigger, and does not use the original
points or coil. These also produce a hotter spark, and require less
adjustment (no points).
BOTH methods still require the distributor, and both will still be
sensitive to the 009s lack of throttle sensing (although the hotter
spark might fire a less-than-perfect mixture, so the flat spots might
be a little less pronounced).
Don't be affraid to try the alternatives (distributors and ingition
systems) out for yourself. Nothing like personal experience to help
you understand how a system works.
Hope this helps,
--
Rob
1970 1500 beetle, one owner, 245,000 miles on it's original engine
In article <19981104032039...@ng101.aol.com>,
expl...@aol.com (Explained) wrote:
> i know 009s have flatspots. but is that w/ all carbs or only the solex
> 34PICT/3s? would it work fine with a 30PICT/3? are there any single carbs it
> works well with? does the compufire electronic ignition compensate for the
> flatspots or just make the coil obsolete?
>
> I've seen a lot of complaints about the 009 but no solutions except "they're
> great for racers". what's the deal with them? is this problem with bosch 009s
> or all centrifugal advance distributors? is there an alternative to
centrifugal
> and vacuum advance distributors that works well? a friend of mine told me to
> get a mechanical advance distributor but i haven't come across any - is this
> the same as centrifugal?
>
> I'm looking for the most reliable "distributor" system. any help would be
> appreciated since this is the next part i plan to fix. i'd love a long in
depth
> answer because
>
> T
> '70 KG
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Explained
solid facts than the bits and pieces i did have. thanks much.
T
'70 KG
p...@ozemail.com.au
Rob, Eric and Bob youve all covered the whys and why nots of the 009.
What had the most resonance for me was the fact that the 009 is
readily available and seems to work fine with the earlier model
carburettors. I have one with my otherwise stock '64 1200.
I am curious to try the vacuum advance distributor and judge for
myself what the real difference is - but where do you get one from ?
Are the only choices to get a good used one, or have one rebuilt, or
is there a suitable vacuum type still being manufactured somewhere out
there ?
Any clues ?
Pat
Kim Howe
> i know 009s have flatspots. but is that w/ all carbs or only the solex
> 34PICT/3s? would it work fine with a 30PICT/3? are there any single carbs it
> works well with? does the compufire electronic ignition compensate for the
> flatspots or just make the coil obsolete?
>
> I've seen a lot of complaints about the 009 but no solutions except "they're
> great for racers". what's the deal with them? is this problem with bosch 009s
> or all centrifugal advance distributors? is there an alternative to
centrifugal
> and vacuum advance distributors that works well? a friend of mine told me to
> get a mechanical advance distributor but i haven't come across any - is this
> the same as centrifugal?
>
> I'm looking for the most reliable "distributor" system. any help would be
> appreciated since this is the next part i plan to fix. i'd love a long
in depth
> answer because
>
Well, generally they're reliable enough. They do seem to keep on
working. As others have said, the 009 isn't a great idea. My 2 cents
worth is that not only is centrifugal not as good as vacuum, but the 009
is a bad example of a certifugal anyway.
Basically the advance curve is all wrong. There is too much total
advance, which means that you have to retard the initial timing so that it
doesn't pre-ignite your heads off. Then the timing is too retarded at
idle. I also think it advances too quickly (once it actually starts
advancing).
I currently have a 009 on each of my Beetles, and have been hunting for
suitable replacements without success so far. A friend of mine has a
homebuilt ignition system on his non VW, which has a programmable advance
curve as part of the electronics. I plan to lock out the advance on the
009s and use one of these devices to program a more suitable curve.
If others are interested, I'll post the results.
Veeduber
>I am curious to try the vacuum advance distributor and judge for
>myself what the real difference is - but where do you get one from ?
>
>
Pat (and the Newsgroup),
Here in southern California, vacuum-advance distributors, both single- and
dual-canister, are a common item at VW-specific outlets. A few months ago a
friend brought one, new, for about $90. I understand the rebuilts are a bit
less.
But distributors are very easy to overhaul. Scrounge around, see if you can
lay your hands on two or three of the same type. (A lot of kiddies toss them
so they can plug in a 'kewl' -009... You can usually pick up all the used GOOD
distributors you want for five bucks a copy.)
Two shim-stacks set the end-play of the shaft (and each stack must have a
micarta washer that serves as an oil seal). If you have enough junkers to
begin with, you can usually put together one that works. Bosch once offered a
kit of the overhaul parts for their distributors but nowadays you'd be lucky to
find one. I've use 1/2" ID micarta washers from General Electric fractional-hp
motors as the oil seal with good results but have been forced to buy -009's
just to get good shims :-) (The micarta seals look like plastic washers.
Thickness is about .035" ID is 13mm (ie, half an inch). You can dress-down
the OD to match whatever distributor you're working on.)
The vacuum canister is available from many shops. Runs about $25 for the
single-canister type.
A suitable replacement pig-tail can be fabricated from the carbon brush of a
small electric motor. Crush the carbon (you only want the pig-tail). You'll
have to make up the threaded terminal (or what-ever -- the end that goes to the
condenser -- the fittings vary) using a bit of brass or copper. To weld the
pig-tail to the breaker plate, make yourself a spot-welder from the carbon
electrode salvaged from a dry-cell (ie, flashlight battery, etc). A car
battery will provide more than enough current. (Practice first. And protect
your eyes.) Only weld on the breaker-plate when it is removed from the
distributor, otherwise you'll arc the sleeve (ie, the bearing).
The distributor spins at just half the speed of the crankshaft. The micarta
seals need to be replaced after about 70,000 miles of use, at which time the
end-float will need to be adjusted as well. I set mine up to about .006"
overall. You can take your feelers down to a store and check a new one to see
how the factory sets them up.
Excessive end-float can cause the distributor to pump oil. If you're still
running the stock ignition set-up (you should consider a CDI module) the oil
vapor will cause your point to burn very quickly.
The external O-ring on the distributor's base is included in every overhaul
gasket set but is also available individually at better VW shops.
If you're running the old-style internal oil cooler, be sure to use a
distributor which incorporates the retard in #3 cam-lobe. And if you have a
dog-house (ie, external) oil cooler, make sure your using a distributor WITHOUT
the retard. (I've seen "-009's" in both flavors -- it's worth your time to
have it checked on a Sun machine (ie, a diagnostic machine specifically for
distributors. 'Sun' is a brand-name, owned by Snap-on (I think) ).
If you don't know what 'flavor' of distributor you have (the shafts are
interchangeable within the same family of distributors), you can find out
simply by clipping a stroboscopic timing light to EACH spark plug lead in turn
and examining the idle-speed firing point. Old-style distributors have a few
degrees of retardation ground into the #3 cam-lobe to let #3 run a bit cooler.
But in many cases the distributor is installed incorrectly and the retardation
may appear on any cylinder, according to the orientation of the distributor,
type of engine and so on.
As a general note to everyone: IF you have an internal oil cooler, make sure
your engine is fitted with the retarded distributor. And that it's properly
installed (ie, retard on #3). If you use a -009 that has the retard AND
INSTALL IT BACKWARDS --, #3 will become #1... you'll time #1 to 7.5 (or
whatever) and thereby cause 2,3,&4 to be TOO FAR ADVANCED. (Neat, eh? Now you
know why that puppy is running so hot! :-) This is a very common error that
eats one hell of a lot of engines, thanks to the 'experts' who cure everything
from a poor idle to falling hair by installing a -009 :-)
But you're the mechanic in charge -- you can run whatever you want. Good luck
with it.
-Bob Hoover
Gary Miller
the other 3 to be way off.
The coil wire should cause a timing light to stop the pulley at all 4
times. I guess this #3 type dizzie would lead to a double ghost image on 1
and 3.
There is no crime in changing the advance curve shape with a 009 or any
other dizzy, and seeing what happens.
Especially if you just rev the motor unloaded and watch the advance happen
with a timing light (poor man's dizzy machine). Running full throttle can
get more expensive, if things are wrong.
The flyweights stretch the springs because the cg of the weight is not at
their pivot. More mass out further leads to stronger force at any rev,
vice versa. Stronger spring leads to less change in advance for a given
force.
The 009 has a weird 2 stage curve, 2 weights, 2 different stops, 1 spring.
I think the free weight should be left in place even if it is neutered, to
keep the shaft in balance.
The kewlest thing about Small Block Chevy dizzies is that the weights and
springs are right under the rotor, easy to get at.
--
Gary Miller
Miller Fuel Injection
http://www.millerfi.com
360-944-4422
Eric and Allison Allred
there are still a few left, might have to grab them too.
eric allred
rjs...@calcube.com
> I've seen a lot of complaints about the 009 but no solutions except "they're
> great for racers".
There's another facet to 009's racing application besides the 'never
ending' advance curve, 009 points have a higher tension spring which
negated point float at high RPM's. Not a consideration for a streeter,
but nice to know nonetheless. Of course if you have some discretionary
income collecting dust, you could opt for a magneto..............
--
Robert J. Salvi, Ambiance Acoustics
http://www.calcube.com
San Diego, CA USA
619-485-7514
John Connolly
5K-6K rpms). The "009" points have a black wire with a white stripe, and you have
to buy them separately (but are good to 8K or so)! Go figure...
John
rjs...@calcube.com wrote:
--
While you capitalists are purging my email and spamming me, don't
forget to include these people:
Fraud Watch: frau...@psinet.com Federal Trade Commission:
ACCC: swee...@accc.gov.au u...@ftc.gov
Oh, and while you're at it, here's a taste of your own medicine!
admin@loopback $LOGIN@localhost $LOGNAME@localhost $USER@localhost
$USER@$HOST -h1024@localhost ro...@mailloop.com
John Connolly
The ones shipped with the 009 are std bug points. The difference between the std points
and 009 points are purely spring tension.
John
Jim Schings / SR Racing wrote:
> On the scope and distributor tester you can get past 7000 before there is any
> significant float/bounce. And you can get past 7500 before the spark has deteriated
> enough to misfire a 7:1 CR bug.
>
> Jim (SR Racing)
David Honan
<johnco...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Th Bosch points supplied by my dealer for 009 are Bosch Part No 1 237 013
044-850 They come with a black wire no white are they correct????
--
Tubby Bus
Da...@honans.demon.co.uk
John Connolly
revving) have a black wire with a WHITE stripe running across them.
John
Ugene1919
there. You've already got the 30pict/3, now get the
009 Bosch. Set the timing@ 8degrees static and
28 all in.
HAPPY MOTORING!
THE VW WIZARD