Omega-3 and Omega-6 Fatty Acids
Chris Mangum
I have read that long-term supplementation with Omega-3 rich oils (flax) can
deplete the body of Omega-6 fatty acids. Is there a test to determine the
levels of these fatty acids in the body? If so, what are the preferred
levels for optimum health?
pbeyer
A general response would be that you'd have to take in a relative ton of
n-3's and a paltry amount of n-6's in the diet before you'd have to
worry about depletion n-6's. The reverse is true in the Western diet--
we take in lots of n-6 and paltry amounts of n-3's. Too little N-6 is
about 999th on my list of things to worry about today (recently moved up
one notch since you said something about it).
Pete
Alf Christophersen
"Chris Mangum" <man...@ccmangum.com> wrote:
>I have read that long-term supplementation with Omega-3 rich oils (flax) can
>deplete the body of Omega-6 fatty acids. Is there a test to determine the
>levels of these fatty acids in the body? If so, what are the preferred
>levels for optimum health?
No, they can't deplete your body for n-6 acids, but lower the n-6 / n-3
quotient, which is good for your heart. Lot of new publications find
very good correlation btw. increased n-6 / n-3 quotient and heart
diseases. There are also some indications that growth of cancer cells
increase with increasing quotient.
Got two references on cancer (out of many)
Cave WT jr. n-3 (omega-3) fatty acid effects on animal tumorigenesis,
FASEB 1991, 5, 2160-2166
Singh J, R Hamid & BS Reddy, Dietary fat and colon cancer: modulation of
COX-2 by types and amount of dietary fat during the postinitiation
states of colon cancer. Cancer Res. 1997, 57, 3465-3470.
On Medline do a 'Textword' search on 'cancer' and combine this with the
sum of three other textword searches 'COX-2' and 'COX-1' and
'cyclooxygenase' (Don't asc me why most of the articles are not
searchable in usual manner. Cyclooxygenase, COX-1 and COX-2 are not
indexes for rapid search in most of these articles, even these are
mentioned in the summary and is obvious keywords. It looks like someone
has decided that the enzyme should not be made keywords in article that
at the same time has 'cancer' as index.
Steven B. Harris
In <35054...@katana.randori.com> "Chris Mangum"
<man...@ccmangum.com> writes:
>
>I have read that long-term supplementation with Omega-3 rich oils
(flax) can
>deplete the body of Omega-6 fatty acids. Is there a test to determine
the
>levels of these fatty acids in the body? If so, what are the preferred
>levels for optimum health?
>
>
You get way too much omega 6 in any reasonable diet (even Pritikin)
to be in danger of depletion of that. Too much flax (omega-3) probably
can oxidize you, however, if you take too much. It's the stuff in
paint thinner, you know, and the process that causes the stuff to
spontaneously combust also goes on slowly in your fat stores. After a
while, your fat turns into fibrous yellow, oxidized gunk! Or, at
least, this is what happens in pigs when fed too much linseed oil.
Pigs have a digestive system much like that of humans, and my guess is
you don't want to eat what is bad for pigs, at the very least.
Keep it to less than one teaspoon of flax oil a day, unless you
really have a need to rev up the omega 3 pathways (some kind of chronic
inflammatory disease). And even then, it's probably best to keep to
less than two tablespoons a day. Use very fresh oil out of a
refrigerated small black plastic bottle with a recent back-date. Get a
brand that is bottled under nitrogen, and which smells and tastes good.
Don't store it (even refrigerated) after opening, more than a week or
two, and add some d-alpha tocopherol from a capsule when you open the
bottle. And remember to take your vitamin E in doses of at least 400
IU a day.
Steve Harris, M.D.
Alf Christophersen
pbeyer <pbe...@kumc.edu> wrote:
>A general response would be that you'd have to take in a relative ton of
>n-3's and a paltry amount of n-6's in the diet before you'd have to
>worry about depletion n-6's. The reverse is true in the Western diet--
>we take in lots of n-6 and paltry amounts of n-3's. Too little N-6 is
>about 999th on my list of things to worry about today (recently moved up
>one notch since you said something about it).
But too little N-3 is a concern for most of us which should have a
priority among 10 first :-) (Beside getting enough water which maybe is
first)
Marconi
I appreciate the insight on flax oil. The only question I have is
whether the tablespoon/day suggestion is dependent on the type of
lifestyle. For example, would a person who lives a sedentary lifestyle
consume the same amount as one who works out on a regular basis. I am a
ectomorph (6' 1" 175 lbs) who works out regularly in a somewhat feable
attempt to gain some muscle. I figured the extra calories from several
tablespoons could only help me. Am I way off base?
Steven B. Harris
In <350607...@asb.com> Marconi <jahs...@asb.com> writes:
>
>I appreciate the insight on flax oil. The only question I have is
>whether the tablespoon/day suggestion is dependent on the type of
>lifestyle. For example, would a person who lives a sedentary lifestyle
>consume the same amount as one who works out on a regular basis. I am
a
>ectomorph (6' 1" 175 lbs) who works out regularly in a somewhat feable
>attempt to gain some muscle. I figured the extra calories from several
>tablespoons could only help me. Am I way off base?
Yah. If you're into oil for the calories, for heaven sake do
something neutral which won't oxidize you or raise your cholesterol too
much. Like almond oil. Tastes better, too. For calories without too
many other nutritional drawbacks I personally recommend almond butter
and huckleberry jelly sandwiches on whole wheat. You might as well
enjoy that weight gain.
Steve Harris, M.D.
Alf Christophersen
sbha...@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris) wrote:
> Keep it to less than one teaspoon of flax oil a day, unless you
>really have a need to rev up the omega 3 pathways (some kind of chronic
>inflammatory disease). And even then, it's probably best to keep to
>less than two tablespoons a day. Use very fresh oil out of a
>refrigerated small black plastic bottle with a recent back-date. Get a
>brand that is bottled under nitrogen, and which smells and tastes good.
>Don't store it (even refrigerated) after opening, more than a week or
>two, and add some d-alpha tocopherol from a capsule when you open the
>bottle. And remember to take your vitamin E in doses of at least 400
>IU a day.
omega 3 is many other oils and fatty acids than just the linolenic acid
which is abundant in flax oil. Cod liver oil, eg. is rich of omega-3
acids. It is the total of any omega-3 and total of omega-6 that really
counts since any of these may be freely elongated, unsaturated or
shortened at any time in people with a healthy liver. (But another thing
is when diseased. That is, we do know very little about control then, at
least I know nothing about any changes in the distribution of pufa at
such time and I guess it would be unethical to do any studies of that on
living humans where biopsy of liver is an obligatory step.)
T. Martin
Steven B. Harris wrote:
> You get way too much omega 6 in any reasonable diet (even Pritikin)
> to be in danger of depletion of that. Too much flax (omega-3) probably
> can oxidize you, however, if you take too much. It's the stuff in
> paint thinner, you know, and the process that causes the stuff to
> spontaneously combust also goes on slowly in your fat stores. After a
> while, your fat turns into fibrous yellow, oxidized gunk! Or, at
> least, this is what happens in pigs when fed too much linseed oil.
> Pigs have a digestive system much like that of humans, and my guess is
> you don't want to eat what is bad for pigs, at the very least.
I'm all for moderation, but I'm not sure the reasons you give here are
very convincing. There's a world of difference between industrial linseed
oil used in paint thinner and fresh oil right from the flax seed. And I
can just imagine the quantities that were fed to the pigs. I wonder
how many studies have been done to determine what happens to pigs when
they are fed (A) a teaspoon per day, (B) a tablespoon per day, or (C)
three tablespoons per day. I'm guessing not very many.
Fidget
pbeyer wrote:
>
> Chris Mangum wrote:
> >
> > I have read that long-term supplementation with Omega-3 rich oils (flax) can
> > deplete the body of Omega-6 fatty acids. Is there a test to determine the
> > levels of these fatty acids in the body? If so, what are the preferred
> > levels for optimum health?
>
> n-3's and a paltry amount of n-6's in the diet before you'd have to
> worry about depletion n-6's. The reverse is true in the Western diet--
> we take in lots of n-6 and paltry amounts of n-3's. Too little N-6 is
> about 999th on my list of things to worry about today (recently moved up
> one notch since you said something about it).
I'm new to this group so I'll say hi to everyone. Just my 2-cents
worth... I suffer with Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. My
(new) Chiropractor advised me recently to buy EPA which is combination
of Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids. Together they create a natural
anti-inflammatory. Also called "grease for the joints", I have to report
that I'm doing a lot better. Am now taking Malic Acid/Magnesium (on his
direction). Malic Acid is apparently what you would get from eating
apples. It oxygenates the blood as well as provides a natural energy,
which I can report is right on target. I find that I'm not dying for
that afternoon nap anymore and have more stamina to get through the day.
Fidget
jwwright
the real question is where is the table that shows me how much of each
omega is in each oil? i think there is adequate w3 in canola oil, or
soybean oil.
Alf Christophersen
"T. Martin" <umma...@cc.umanitoba.ca> wrote:
>I'm all for moderation, but I'm not sure the reasons you give here are
>very convincing. There's a world of difference between industrial linseed
>oil used in paint thinner and fresh oil right from the flax seed. And I
>can just imagine the quantities that were fed to the pigs. I wonder
>how many studies have been done to determine what happens to pigs when
>they are
>fed (A) a teaspoon per day,
The meat will contain little arachidonic acid
>(B) a tablespoon per day, or
It contains possibly even less arachidonic acid
>(C) three tablespoons per day.
Even less arachidonic acid :-)
If the test had been done with an oil rich in n-6 compared to n-3 oil
the test would give some arachidonic acid in the meat, then more
arachidonic acid and with three spoons much more.
>I'm guessing not very many.
Right. But some has been done. What is interesting is not quantity of
oil, but the proportion btw. n-6 and n-3 acids. I know about reumatic
people who can eat freely mutton when the sheeps has just come from the
mountains, but get very sick in spring if the mutton is a sheep that has
been fed with n-6 rich food during winter. A big difference is the n-6 /
n-3 proportion which is very low in the autumn after the animals has
been fed wild growing grass that are rich in n-3 acids and low in n-6
acids. In spring, the proportion is normally high because the sheep are
fed grains that mostly contain n-6 acids and thus the meat should
contain significant amounts of arachidonic acid. If these people has a
uncontrolled activity of COX-2, they get real troubles when the food
contain lots of arachidonic acid, but much less trouble if they get lots
of n-3 acids that is competitors of the COX-2 enzyme and other enzymes
that convert arachidonic acid to signal molecules because the n-3 acids
function as inhibitors of the reactions. (It's like blocking a road
crossing with a big bus)
By the way, one test I have seen on arachidonic acid did show that
chicken fed a grainrich diet can contain more than 1 g pr 100 g meat of
arachidonic acid. Fed a diet based mainly on grass and other greens
growing in the free and let the chicken go everywhere, the ratio of n-6
/ n-3 has been observed down in 1:4, but when fed grain, it can reach
10:1. Some data has pointed that it should not exceed 5:1, some says 7:1
is still ok, but then cancer has not been considered. When taking into
account different illnesses that is worsened by prostaglandins produced
uncontrolled by a constituent COX-2 (which should be induced only when
needed), the ratio should be low. Some says less than 4:1. (If it drops
under ca. 1:1, there may be increases in bleeding time etc., risk of
brain bleeding is increased etc.)
Brian Sandle
Alf Christophersen <alf.chris...@basalmed.uio.no> wrote:
: "T. Martin" <umma...@cc.umanitoba.ca> wrote:
:>I'm all for moderation, but I'm not sure the reasons you give here are
:>very convincing. There's a world of difference between industrial linseed
:>oil used in paint thinner and fresh oil right from the flax seed.
I tend to find flax seed (linseed) oil gives me something I feel could
get to neuropathy - a bit of a dead feeling in the little fingers.
And I
:>can just imagine the quantities that were fed to the pigs. I wonder
:>how many studies have been done to determine what happens to pigs when
:>they are
:>fed (A) a teaspoon per day,
: The meat will contain little arachidonic acid
Arachidonic is the allergic increaser? But there is some in vitro stuff
to say it inhibits cancer, I'd better go back to the Medline files. But
my computer with them has plastic ICs which run hot and in combination
perhaps with histamine from too much fish I've been getting swollen eyelids.
I think I was searching Medline for eicosa* to get eicosanoids and EPA.
:>(B) a tablespoon per day, or
: It contains possibly even less arachidonic acid
:>(C) three tablespoons per day.
: Even less arachidonic acid :-)
: If the test had been done with an oil rich in n-6 compared to n-3 oil
: the test would give some arachidonic acid in the meat, then more
: arachidonic acid and with three spoons much more.
I used to use safflower oil. But it is high in omega 6. I think it is a
cancer promoter, though good for eye tear fluid.
:>I'm guessing not very many.
: Right. But some has been done. What is interesting is not quantity of
: oil, but the proportion btw. n-6 and n-3 acids.
So how are we going to calculate that?
I know about reumatic
: people who can eat freely mutton when the sheeps has just come from the
: mountains, but get very sick in spring if the mutton is a sheep that has
: been fed with n-6 rich food during winter. A big difference is the n-6 /
: n-3 proportion which is very low in the autumn after the animals has
: been fed wild growing grass that are rich in n-3 acids and low in n-6
: acids. In spring, the proportion is normally high because the sheep are
: fed grains that mostly contain n-6 acids and thus the meat should
: contain significant amounts of arachidonic acid.
Very interesting - I must talk to the organic producers here. So it is
silly to say food is good for a particular person if it is produced by an
animal fed on organic grain and the person is over supplied with omega 6.
If these people has a
: uncontrolled activity of COX-2,
Which is?
they get real troubles when the food
: contain lots of arachidonic acid, but much less trouble if they get lots
: of n-3 acids that is competitors of the COX-2 enzyme and other enzymes
: that convert arachidonic acid to signal molecules because the n-3 acids
: function as inhibitors of the reactions. (It's like blocking a road
: crossing with a big bus)
: By the way, one test I have seen on arachidonic acid did show that
: chicken fed a grainrich diet can contain more than 1 g pr 100 g meat of
: arachidonic acid. Fed a diet based mainly on grass and other greens
: growing in the free and let the chicken go everywhere, the ratio of n-6
: / n-3 has been observed down in 1:4, but when fed grain, it can reach
: 10:1. Some data has pointed that it should not exceed 5:1, some says 7:1
: is still ok, but then cancer has not been considered. When taking into
: account different illnesses that is worsened by prostaglandins produced
: uncontrolled by a constituent COX-2 (which should be induced only when
: needed), the ratio should be low. Some says less than 4:1. (If it drops
: under ca. 1:1, there may be increases in bleeding time etc., risk of
: brain bleeding is increased etc.)
So do the chickens produce EPA or DHA as fish do?
Do I note the EPA extract is no longer available without doctor
prescription in Canada? So is fish oil with 20% EPA in that category?
How long does cod liver oil keep in an opened bottle? Is the rancidity
smell of drying oil a good enough indicator?
Talking about foods with the `ee' sound on the vanadyl thread. I am off
seeds (grain) but do use oats. What are oats like for the 6:3 ratio?
Dodo Dolphin. Questioning military high power sonar's effect on cetacean
health on sci.environment.
Alf Christophersen
Brian Sandle <bsa...@southern.co.nz> wrote:
>Arachidonic is the allergic increaser? But there is some in vitro stuff
>to say it inhibits cancer, I'd better go back to the Medline files. But
>my computer with them has plastic ICs which run hot and in combination
>perhaps with histamine from too much fish I've been getting swollen eyelids.
>I think I was searching Medline for eicosa* to get eicosanoids and EPA.
One article (out of many) may be
Singh, Hamid and Reddy. Cancer Res. 57(16):3465-70, 1997 Aug 15, Dietary
fat and colon cancer: modulation of cyclooxygenase-2 by types and amount
of dietary fat during the postinitiation stage of colon carcinogenesis.
Sheng et al. Inhibition of human colon cancer cel lgrowth by selective
inhibition of cyclooxygenase-2. J. Clin Invest 99(9):2254-9, 1997 May 1
Hara, Yoshimi, Niwa, INo and Mori. Apoptosis induced by NS-398, a
selective cyclooxygenase-2 inhibitor, in human colorectal cancer cell
lines.
Crofford. COX-1 and COX-2 tissue expression: implications and
predictions. J Rheumatol 24 Suppl 49:15-8, 1997 Jul
Mestre et al. Retinoids suppress epidermal growth factor-induced
transcription of cyclooxygenase-2 in human oral squamous carcinoma
cells. Cancer Res. 57(14):2890-5, Jul 15.
Jouzeay et al. Cyclo-oxygenase isoenzymes. How recent findings affect
thinking about nonsteroidal antio-inflammatory drugs. Drugs
53(4):563-82, 1997 Apr.
It may be that you don't know that linoleic acid and linolenic acid do
use the same enzymes for elongation and desaturations. Only a few
enzymes are specific. That means that they concur about these enzymes.
If the enzymatic coefficients had been equal, the would concur due to
the concentration ratio. But they have different characteristics, and
thus, they don't compete at equal terms. Espceially do this occur with
COX-1 and COX-2 where arachidonic acid has the highest Vm, but also a
high Km compared to the two other substrates for producing PG. That
means, concurrence with EPA and DHGLA means the production of PG2-series
would be drastically reduced because these has a low Vm and a low Km,
that is they bind tightly to the enzyme, but the same, leave the enzyme
much more slowly. So, having lots of other lipids than AA available by
PLP2, means lower production overall of PG than if AA was the only acid
relased by PLP2 from phospholipates.