Tioga Comp Pool price increase
zach_...@my-deja.com
Tioga Comp Pool 47-406 tyre at their Japanese factory. To reduce costs
they are transfering the production of the Comp Pool to Singapore. It is
believed the quality of the tyre will suffer with this change. I only
have 18 Japanese Comp Pools in stock and it is uncertain if I will be
able to get any more from Japan so I have had to raise the price of
these Comp Pools from $30 each to $40 each. The only good news is when
the Comp Pools from Singapore become available they will be less
expensive, probably $20 each. It may be several months before they are
available.
-----------------------
Zach Kaplan Cycles
1518 Buena Vista Ave.
Alameda, CA 94501 USA
510-522-BENT (2368)
zakaplan@earth
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jeff Cowen
opportunistic price increase. If you have these tires in stock, then
whatever happens in Japan costs you nothing more than you've already
invested. The market may bear whatever you charge, but it's not good
customer relations to take advantage of scarcity that way.
- Jeff
zach_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> A reliable source has told me Mitsubishi has stopped production of the
> Tioga Comp Pool 47-406 tyre at their Japanese factory. To reduce costs
> they are transfering the production of the Comp Pool to Singapore. It is
> believed the quality of the tyre will suffer with this change. I only
> have 18 Japanese Comp Pools in stock and it is uncertain if I will be
> able to get any more from Japan so I have had to raise the price of
> these Comp Pools from $30 each to $40 each. The only good news is when
> the Comp Pools from Singapore become available they will be less
> expensive, probably $20 each. It may be several months before they are
> available.
--
Jeff Cowen \@ ^\
'98 Rans V-Rex \==-\-%
Waltham, MA () O
http://www.BlueSNAFU.com - v2.35
BentHeadSWB
>able to get any more from Japan so I have had to raise the price of
>these Comp Pools from $30 each to $40 each.
You HAVE to raise the price?!?!?! Did the Comp Pool mafia FORCE you to raise
the price?!?!
I know, I know...supply and demand sort of thing...sure is. The spot
price of Comp Pools are going up $10 due to drying up supply. I love your
honesty, Zach...most merchants don't announce to the world such a thing as
price gouging.
I hope that $180 extra goes a long way.
John H
N TX
fit...@my-deja.com
Don't tell the man how to run his business. I'd pay an extra 10 bucks
for the "best" tire (tyre) out there.
But I wouldn't put those ugly fat balloon tires on my ride anyway!!!
Rod Kuehl
RANS V2
Branadon, FL
zach_...@my-deja.com
Seriously, if you don't like the new higher price don't buy them, I have
plenty of less expensive slick 47-406 tyres in stock such as the Avocet
Freestyle 47-406. As far as the extra $180 goes I'm so honest that I
must say I personally like these Japanese Comp Pools so much that I'd
rather keep them for my own use in future years than sell them to
someone for $30 each. I'd really regret if if I let them all go for $30
each and then in 6 months can't get the highest quality Japanese Comp
Pools to put on my own bikes and trikes. Now it could turn out the
batch of Comp Pools that will be made in Singapore will be just as good
but it is unlikely and there is no way of knowing for sure until I have
them which will probably be in several months.
Zach Kaplan
In article <20000911222702...@ng-fy1.news.cs.com>,
benth...@cs.com (BentHeadSWB) wrote:
zach_...@my-deja.com
Looking at the big picture whatever happens in Japan costs me more than
money, it costs me quality of life. The Tioga Comp Pool is my all around
favourite 406mm tyre and I've had excellent results with these tyres
over the years on a wide variety of bikes and trikes. I'd rather use
these 18 tyres myself for years to come (it will take me several years
to go through them) than sell them for what I had been selling them for
($30 each). Of course if someone has to by them from me I will sell them
but for a $10 surcharge due to reducing the number of these fine tyres
in my stockpile. I hope I'm wrong and the made in Singapore version is
just as good but based on my past experience with tyre production from
other countries getting transfered from Japan to SE Asia combined with
the opionion my distributor has of what will happen I am placing a
premium on these last of the Japanese Comp Pools.
Zach Kaplan
In article <39BD8B0F...@mediaone.net>,
Bill Britton
they are concerned that the quality of the comps might not be up to
snuff.Gaerlan might still have some comp pools. I think they were selling them
for less than $30
Bill Britton Vision R40 SWB & Faired Bike E AT
Memphis TN
http://hometown.aol.com/bentbill16/index.html
Jeff Cowen
the manner most likely to alienate your customers. I understand your desire
to keep them, as they have a wonderful reputation, but please find another
solution.
Suggestion: "Hi folks, this is Zach and I just found out that I probably
won't be getting any more of this excellent tyre. Therefore, I've decided
to keep eight of them for my own use and sell the other ten to the first
enqueued customers. No more than two per customer please."
Nobody would begrudge you your right to enjoy them yourself [at least I
wouldn't], but a "reluctance to sell" surcharge is just begging for
resentment. This applies to $5000 bikes as well as $30 tires. Zach, do the
right thing!!!
- Jeff
zach_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Jeff:
>
> Looking at the big picture whatever happens in Japan costs me more than
> money, it costs me quality of life. The Tioga Comp Pool is my all around
> favourite 406mm tyre and I've had excellent results with these tyres
> over the years on a wide variety of bikes and trikes. I'd rather use
> these 18 tyres myself for years to come (it will take me several years
> to go through them) than sell them for what I had been selling them for
> ($30 each). Of course if someone has to by them from me I will sell them
> but for a $10 surcharge due to reducing the number of these fine tyres
> in my stockpile. I hope I'm wrong and the made in Singapore version is
> just as good but based on my past experience with tyre production from
> other countries getting transfered from Japan to SE Asia combined with
> the opionion my distributor has of what will happen I am placing a
> premium on these last of the Japanese Comp Pools.
--
Jeff Cowen \@ ^\
'98 Rans V-Rex \==-\-%
Waltham, MA () O
http://www.BlueSNAFU.com - v2.35
Tyro Vivo
In the world of economics it's called Supply and Demand!
In article <8pk876$63p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
--
http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~jimfew
"I'd rather be a dirty old man than a senior citizen."
cle...@my-deja.com
> Seriously, if you don't like the new higher price don't buy them>
>
> ...so I have had to raise the price of
> > >these Comp Pools from $30 each to $40 each.
> >
Zach,
Greed has forced you to raise your prices on your remaining stock. If
you can't see that, I am sorry for you.
You are right, I don't have to buy them from you. Not only that, I
don't have to but anything else from you either. Recently, I made my
first mail order purchase from you. This was based largely in part upon
the reputation that you had established in the NG. Sadly, it is the
last purchase that I will make from you.
Cletus Lee
P-38/F-40 pilot with a 16" front wheel.
Dan Tankersley
government edict. We do it with price. Which do you prefer?
Have you ever asked for a raise. If so, you raised the price for your labor.
What's the difference. Cletus, I guess your may be greedy too.
Dan Tankersley
Freewheeling
Unlike others on this group I don't have a problem with your approach. I
don't see it as price gouging. I have one more Comp Pool that I haven't
used, and the one I have on my Rex looks fine with minimal wear. When I go
through my as yet unused Comp Pool I'll probably switch to Vredestein
SLicks, or possibly a "Vred with tread." Quality of the Vreds is probably
even better than the present Comp Pools, but they're only 1.35 tires. If
they don't significantly alter the ride characteristics then I'd me more
than happy to use them on both the front and rear, with Velocity Aeroheat
rims. It'd make a nice aerodynamic and aesthetic match.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
<zach_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8pk8gl$6el$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
cle...@my-deja.com
Dan Tankersley <dan...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> This is ridiculous. Socialist countries ration scarce resources by
> government edict. We do it with price. Which do you prefer?
>
> Have you ever asked for a raise. If so, you raised the price for your
labor.
I only raise the price of my services when I can offer a greater value
for those services. I have also lowered the price of those services.
I live in an area that is prone to Hurricanes. When one approaches or
hits the area, certain hardware and lumber supplies are in high demand
along with gas, food and fresh water supplies. The government has
enacted laws to prevent price gouging in these cases. Is this the
socialist country that you refer? Or do you think that a grocery store
should be able to charge $10 for a gallon of fresh water just because
there is a hurricane coming on shore?
Stephen R. Covey in 'Principle Centered Leadership' speaks of people
falling into one of several groups. "Family-Centered" (those people
that put family above all else), "Work-Centered" (Workoholics), "Money-
Centered" (people that value money above all else) and "Principle-
Centered" - People that live by principles and do things because "it is
the right thing to do" I value "Principle Centered" individuals. I
can't always find them. When I do, I support them with my business.
When some one identifies themselve as being other than Principle -
Centered, I know this is someone that I can not support.
Cletus Lee
Derek
If you can't replace the tires you have in stock it makes sense to me to
charge what the market will bear or even pull them for your own use to equip
new bikes sold as a dealer. No resentment from this quarter. How does the
new 47-406 Primo Comet stack up to the Comp Poole for speed? How about the
japanese made Panaracer 47-406 as a potential replacement?
zach_...@my-deja.com
Dan:
I agree with you. What Cletus and others don't seem to understand is
that now that these Japanese Comp Pools are no longer made they are
worth a lot more to me. They may not be worth more than the old price of
$30 to him or some others but to me they are. That is all that counts
here as I currently own and am in pocession of all these tyres (down to
only 14 now). I'd rather have them all for my own use for years to come
but rather than being greedy and keeping them all to myself I'm letting
a limited number of other people have my last remaining Japanese Comp
Pools but for this privelege they need to pay me a $10 surcharge because
the extra value I see in my favourite all around 406mm tyre being no
longer available in its present form.
Note I have reduced the cost of the similar width Avocet Freestyle by
$10 until 21st of September. Whatever increased profit I make from
selling the Cop Pools for $40 each will be offset by selling the Avocet
Freestyles at $18 each.
Zach Kaplan
lew...@my-deja.com
Lewis.
In article <8plid4$ma3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
--
"Benbrook's Best 'Bent Bicyclist"
http://members.home.net/limeylew/index.htm
Tyro Vivo
Maybe we should start a new thread on Econ 101 for those people who
need a review of the basics. You might have been a little more
diplomatic for the sake of the "Feel Gooders" but I don't think you are
unethical at all.
Competition will keep the prices down. If it so happens that the
Singapore made tires are as good or better than the Japanese ones, then
your remaining stock will not be worth as much to you and your price
will come down. If not and the buyer can't afford to pay the premium
they will have to take a substitute.
In the meantime:
"You pays yo' money and you takes yo' choice."
In article <8plj28$n4s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
--
http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~jimfew
"I'd rather be a dirty old man than a senior citizen."
cle...@my-deja.com
Tyro Vivo <jf5...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I'm with you Zach:
> Maybe we should start a new thread on Econ 101 for those people who
> need a review of the basics. You might have been a little more
> diplomatic for the sake of the "Feel Gooders" but I don't think you
are
> unethical at all.
>
> Competition will keep the prices down. If it so happens that the
> Singapore made tires are as good or better than the Japanese ones,
then
> your remaining stock will not be worth as much to you and your price
> will come down. If not and the buyer can't afford to pay the premium
> they will have to take a substitute.
It is looking more and more to me like Zach suddenly saw himself with
18 unsellable tires when the new, cheaper Singapore tires hit the
market.
To quote Zach "It is believed the quality of the tyre will suffer with
this change."
If you believe this unsupported statement, then you _must_ buy these
now rare Comp Pools from Zach at his now newly inflated prices.
I think P.T. Barnum stated it very well...
Meanwhile Zach is unloading his of obsolete (soon to be higher priced)
tires and you are paying for the privledge.
Cletus Lee
"My money is where my Mouth is"
zach_...@my-deja.com
That is quite a conspiracy theory. Nothing could be farther from the
truth. Based on my experience with tyre manufacturers and my supplier's
much greater experience with them we believe the quality of the Comp
Pool will suffer when production is changed from Japan to Singapore.
Just as an example look what happened when the Specialized Fat Boy tyre
production was transferred from Japan to SE Asia. Yes the price of the
new Comp Pools from Singapore will be lower (probably $20 instead of the
$30 they had been) but the quality will also probably be lower and that
means a lot to some people.
Also keep in mind the made in Singapore Comp Pools won't be available
for several months and my supply of Japanese Comp Pools (now down to 14
tyres) probably won't last that long, unless I further and more
significantly raise the price :-). At some point when my supply of
Japanese Comp Pools is down to 4 or 6 I might just have to say they
aren't for sale any more at any price but until then I'm giving people
the opportunity to obtain what may be the last of the high quality Comp
Pools.
Zach Kaplan
In article <8pllam$q4d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
cle...@my-deja.com wrote:
It is looking more and more to me like Zach suddenly saw himself with 18
unsellable tires when the new, cheaper Singapore tires hit the market.
To quote Zach "It is believed the quality of the tyre will suffer with
this change."
If you believe this unsupported statement, then you _must_ buy these now
rare Comp Pools from Zach at his now newly inflated prices.
I think P.T. Barnum state
zach_...@my-deja.com
I don't know for sure how the new 47--406 Comet compares with the Comp
Pool for speed. I initially thought the Comet would be faster because it
would be a tyre of the same width with a thinner casing and tread.
However when I put the 47-406 Comet on a wheel I discovered it is
significantly narrower than its claimed width at 39mm making it more of
a 1.5" tyre than a 1.75" tyre. The Comp Pool on the same rim (Velocity
Aeroheat AT) has a width of 44mm. The Comet has a taller profile though
at 39mm vs. 37mm for the Comp Pool. My feeling is the 47-406 Comet is
close but not quite as low rolling resistance as the Comp Pool. I won't
know for sure until I see the results of the test Ian Sims at Greenspeed
does with the 47-406 Comet. It also appears the Comet doesn't have as
good wet weather traction as the Comp Pool but I'll have more experience
with this when I put the 47-406 Comets on a trike this winter. The Comet
is lighter weight at 333-348 grams compared to 346.2 g- 387 g for the
Comp Pools.
The Panaracer 47-406 I've seen has many grooves crossing the part of the
tread in contact with the road and has a fairly thick tread, neither of
which are good for rolling resistance. These are sometimes sold under
the name Peregrine. It looks like a high quality and durable tyre
though. I've been using a 52-406 Peregrine Special-HP on the front of my
Double Vision. This has the same tread and basic design but is wider and
made th Thailand. On Sunday this tyre had a catastrophic casing failure
for no apparent reason. I have replaced it with a Maxxis Hookworm
53-406.
Zach Kaplan
In article <pasv5.3427$mJ6.2...@typhoon.sonic.net>,
bent...@my-deja.com
Could you define exactly what you mean by "quality" as applied to tires?
Tom Sherman
tshe...@students.uiuc.edu
1999 Blue RANS TAILWIND/63 with green bodysock
2000 Red RANS ROCKET
.....O __..........O.._.....
...__\\___\_.....__\\__\_-%..
..(_)^^ %(_)....(_)^^^(_).....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In article <8plmbm$rjc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
zach_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>...Yes the price of the new Comp Pools from Singapore will be lower
> (probably $20 instead of the $30 they had been) but the quality will
> also probably be lower and that means a lot to some people...
zach_...@my-deja.com
By my definition quality in a tyre is fitting the rim well and not
blowing off at or slightly above the rated pressure. Quality is a casing
not likely to spontaneously fall apart, develop bulges or develop
microcracks in the tread from exposure to the sun. Quality is a tyre
that runs true vertically and horizontally. Quality is having a good
overall balance of durability, rolling resistance, and traction.
I really hope the new made in Singapore Comp Pools will be as high
quality as their Japanese predecessors and if they are I'll certainly
be selling them for $20 each and will reduce the price of any remaining
Japanese Comp Pools to $20 each after 10 people have reported to me good
feedback and a low failure rate from using the made in Singapore
(Singaporese?) Comp Pools for 2000 kilometres.
Zach "the tyre mafia" Kaplan
In article <8plno1$tbd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Jeff Cowen
customers and it's a no-brainer that a number of us resent it. As I said
before, you'd be fully entitled to keep some or even all of the tires for
your own use. We recognize that you're a dedicated rider as well as a
dealer.
But jacking up the price is plain gouging. You can say that "they are worth
a lot more" to you, but you didn't pay any more for them. You're not
passing along some added "supply and demand" cost, you're adding an
additional profit [= greed] on a product where customers have few other
sources. That is directly comparable to charging $10 for a gallon of water
in advance of a hurricane, and IMO it's despicable.
You have obviously forgotten that your business is to serve customers, not
for them to cater to your sense of entitlement. If you don't want to sell
the damn tires, then don't sell them. But don't dick your customers
around. You've immediately lost four or more of us publicly, and who knows
how many lurkers have no intention of dealing with someone who has such
little regard for his customers.
Furthermore, the Avocet "deal" is a bait and switch. "Here, you can get
ripped off on the tire you want or get a good price [until Sep 21, oh boy]
on a tire you don't want." Swell. Believe me, other dealers have more
respect for their customers -- and they'll be inheriting some of yours. All
for $180. That's something to think about once they're all sold.
So yes I'm pissed. My earlier posts were politer and gentler in the hope
that you'd take the hint, but that didn't happen, you just told us we should
ante up an additional $10 for the "privilege" of buying these tires. Is it
a privilege to buy bike parts? My hope is that the other manufacturers and
dealers will notice this and take it as a reminder that customer
satisfaction is paramount.
- Jeff
zach_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <B5E3AAB8.32FD%dan...@bellsouth.net>,
> Dan:
>
> I agree with you. What Cletus and others don't seem to understand is
> that now that these Japanese Comp Pools are no longer made they are
> worth a lot more to me. They may not be worth more than the old price of
> $30 to him or some others but to me they are. That is all that counts
> here as I currently own and am in pocession of all these tyres (down to
> only 14 now). I'd rather have them all for my own use for years to come
> but rather than being greedy and keeping them all to myself I'm letting
> a limited number of other people have my last remaining Japanese Comp
> Pools but for this privelege they need to pay me a $10 surcharge because
> the extra value I see in my favourite all around 406mm tyre being no
> longer available in its present form.
>
> Note I have reduced the cost of the similar width Avocet Freestyle by
> $10 until 21st of September. Whatever increased profit I make from
> selling the Cop Pools for $40 each will be offset by selling the Avocet
> Freestyles at $18 each.
--
Jeff Cowen \@ ^\
'98 Rans V-Rex \==-\-%
Waltham, MA () O
http://www.BlueSNAFU.com - v2.35
Beth
Zach, I think what people are offended by is the "have HAD to raise the
price of". Because you haven't HAD to, you have decided that tires are
worth more money based on some possible changes in quality. We have no
evidence of this change in quality - just some heresay you say you heard
from some source, whom you haven't cited, and whom we surely don't know.
Thats not real credible.
I also totally agree that if you really wanted to keep the tires, you'd keep
the tires.
--
-Beth
BikeE FX, AT and rans gliss
Anchorage, Alaska
<zach_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8pjtc5$pdk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Freewheeling
You'll need to change your name to Tycho if you stick with that Tyre Mafia
thing. By the way, have you heard from Thomas recently?
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
<zach_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8plqg4$10i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Freewheeling
"But jacking up the price is plain gouging. You can say that "they are
worth
a lot more" to you, but you didn't pay any more for them. You're not
passing along some added "supply and demand" cost, you're adding an
additional profit [= greed] on a product where customers have few other
sources. That is directly comparable to charging $10 for a gallon of water
in advance of a hurricane, and IMO it's despicable."
Well look, if for some inexplicable reason most of the data analysts in the
US are kidnapped by Gypsies I'm gonna raise my price from $50/hr to $500/hr.
Hope you don't mind. Gouging is an excessive charge placed on an item
necessary or critical to survival because extraordinary circumstances have
made the item more dear. This is clearly not the case with the Comp Pools.
Indeed, I had decided to use Vredesteins anyway. In my opinion the Comp
Pools are over-rated. I'll sell my one remaining Comp Pool for $40 though.
:-) I think Larry Black has one more. Maybe he's behind the curve...
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Jeff Cowen" <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:39BE6F98...@mediaone.net...
g_...@my-deja.com
the overhead plus the profit margin. The tires have been purchaced so
the cost from the supplier is fixed the overhead from the statement
above is the same, so the only change I can see is the profit margin.
If the new tires are inferior then the value of the existing ones goes
up. and the dealer can have a higher profit margin. If the current
Pools are as good as everyone say's ( I have no idea either way) then
$100 may be a good deal. Thats fine it is Zach's business and he makes
the business choices. I resent the "I'm a victim" attitude of the price
change. The evil people at Tioga didn't have anything to do with the
formula for price. Zach didn't have to justify the price increase and
if he wants all of the stock for himself thats fine too. But he is not
a victim and chooses to raise the price on a profit-motivated basis.
Garnett Ray
Seattle V-Rex
Freewheeling
"Because you haven't HAD to, you have decided that tires are
worth more money based on some possible changes in quality. We have no
evidence of this change in quality - just some heresay you say you heard
from some source, whom you haven't cited, and whom we surely don't know.
Thats not real credible."
Well, are we talking about heresy or hearsay? if it's not credible then the
tires aren't worth it. Wait until the new ones come out and get 2 for the
price of 1. From Zach's point of view the quality information *is*
credible, hence he has raised the price. Your consumer sovereignty gives
you the right to walk as well, but I can see that from Zach's point of view
catering to some voiced demand that he not value his tires more highly
because of his reading of the circumstances amounts to a sort of extortion.
Again, people are using the leverage provided by their sovereignty... which
is not extortion... it's just economics 101 dressed up to look like a
"cause." Expect other sources to raise prices on the Comp Pool unless they
think they can gain market share by not doing so. (Would you call this good
business or dumping?) Stop making this stuff personal. It scares me. It's
$10 for crying out loud.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Beth" <da...@alaskaREMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message
news:srstbu...@corp.supernews.com...
LOWBIKE
number of comp pool tires,my price is $25.00 + shipping.and i have not heard of
any such changes in the quality or pricing of these tires,so as far as i'm
concerned,being in the bicycle market for over 30yrs,what you may be reading is
all hearsay and a WHOLE LOT OF B--- S---.
Jeff Cowen
I've never known Zach to lie or even come close to lying. I may disagree
vehemently with how he looks at certain things, but if Zach says he heard various
things from the factory or distributor then that's how I would expect it to be.
That's not to say the factory might not be misleading him, but I just don't have
reason to doubt his word.
That all being said, LOWBIKE that sounds like a great deal!
- Jeff
LOWBIKE wrote:
--
zach_...@my-deja.com
My source of both the Comp Pools and the information on the Japanese
production ceasing and being replaced with production in Singapore is
Ian Sims of Greenspeed in Australia. The issue just came up yesterday
when I asked him to throw in a bunch of Comp Pools with a trike order he
is sending me soon as he usually does. He would not release any more
Comp Pools to me. They are limiting their remaining Comp Pools to those
installed on the trikes they sell.
Furthermore Ian told me the Comp Pools which will be readily available
through US dealers in the next several months through J&B Importers (the
ones I mentioned which will retail for about $20) will be made in
Singapore. Based on what Ian and myself know about various tyre
production factories I'm not going to take the risk that the Comp Pools
from Singapore will be just as good as the Japanese ones, hence the
Japanese ones instantly become much higher value to me regardless of
what I originally paid for them. Like I've said before in this thread I
hope the Comp Pools from Singapore are every bit as good as the Japanese
ones as it will be nice to have a tyre like this in the same price range
as the Primo Comet. Based on my experience with tyre production
relocating though that won't likely be the case.
Zach Kaplan
In article <srstbu...@corp.supernews.com>,
Matthew H. Schneps
> But jacking up the price is plain gouging. You can say that "they are worth
> a lot more" to you, but you didn't pay any more for them. You're not
> passing along some added "supply and demand" cost, you're adding an
> additional profit [= greed] on a product where customers have few other
> sources. That is directly comparable to charging $10 for a gallon of water
> in advance of a hurricane, and IMO it's despicable.
>
> You have obviously forgotten that your business is to serve customers, not
> for them to cater to your sense of entitlement.
Jeff
I appreciate your sense of injustice. But is it possible that comparing
Zach's price increase to price gouging water might be a little
strong? (Or were you joking?) After all, Zach is selling bicycles.
He's not selling medical services, or some commodity vital to the
survival of innocents. We're talking bikes here.
I see that Zach's just trying to earn (what I suspect) is a modest
living selling bikes and parts. If he senses that a supply of popular
tyres is going to go down, why can't he react to this information to try
to make a couple extra hundred bucks?
In the Boston area, virtually every store (except Belmont) that sold
recumbents is now closed or is about to close. Do we want to wish the
same fate on Zach? If he sees a (very minor!) business opportunity,
shouldn't Zach do what he can to profit from it, and keep his operation
alive?
I remember a thread where everyone was decrying the lack of bent savy
LBS people. Many people said they'd prefer to spend more and buy from
someone who knows what he's talking about, than to buy mail order from
an unknowledgeable source. Don't we really want people like Zach, who
have lots of expertise -- which BTW we all make use of (free of charge!)
via the net -- to earn the best living they can?
Best, MAtt
kor...@my-deja.com
All of you who are getting so upset over a price increase need to settle
down. First of all, he can keep all of the tires if he wants to, but
he's still willing to let them go. Second of all, the man's gotta run a
business and make a living. The comparisons of raising the price of a
gallon of water from $1 to $10 disturb me. That's a 1000% markup, and
here we are throwing a fit over a 25% markup. If you all don't like
it, you can shop someplace else for the tires, or you can start your own
store. He's taking a great risk running a store in this lucrative
business. Why do you think so many LBS's don't carry recumbents? I
guarantee Zach could take some job and make more money without having to
deal with this hassle.
I'm not trying to step on any toes, and I don't even know Zach, but I'm
sitting here seeing a guy who always hands out free advice and passes
along great deals to us, and now he's being publicly bad-mouthed and
being accused of gouging. As was mentioned earlier, if you were going
to die without these tires, and Zach had the only ones, that would be
gouging. However, you can buy other tires, or you can buy from someone
else.
I had a lot more respect for this group yesterday...
Korey Atterberry
In article <39BE6F98...@mediaone.net>,
Jeff Cowen
Of course he should be able to earn a decent living. And no, it's not a vital
medical service, it's just opportunistic and capitalizing on the fact that these
tires are indeed very hard to come by. Before the other posts from LOWBIKE and Ed
Gin, there just aren't many places to get this tire. And given that LOWBIKE is
selling the tire for $25, that speaks to anybody selling it at $40.
If we take your argument, maybe Zach should double the price of all parts that are
not readily available from other sources. Would that be a good thing, responsive
to customers' needs? Would you want to shop at any kind of store that will
immediatly raise prices on any products without viable market competition? This
is what we have anti-trust laws for!
I think we all realize this is much more about principle than money. If Zach is
that close to folding, then $180 isn't likely to save him. The objection is the
automatic realization that it's a seller's market for that particular product, and
the consequent eagerness to sock it to the customer. I've said all along that if
he doesn't want to sell them then he shouldn't sell them. It is simply offensive
to say "I don't want to sell these, therefore I will punish you if you insist on
buying them."
As for Zach's knowledge, yes definitely! I hope he remains here for a long time
and shares his expertise on cycling things. Don't forget though, that we all have
some level of experience and valuable advice to share.
Anyway, we are all free to shop where we like, and if you don't object to a
particular shop's practices then by all means give them your business. Others of
us will exercise our own freedoms.
One thing that seems to be lost on people is that we're talking about $30 tires,
but the argument is equally valid with $5000 bikes. Would you happily accept a
$6700 price tag for that bike just because he's the only importer and he
personally values the bike 30% higher than list price? I doubt it.
- Jeff
"Matthew H. Schneps" wrote:
> I appreciate your sense of injustice. But is it possible that comparing
> Zach's price increase to price gouging water might be a little
> strong? (Or were you joking?) After all, Zach is selling bicycles.
> He's not selling medical services, or some commodity vital to the
> survival of innocents. We're talking bikes here.
>
> I see that Zach's just trying to earn (what I suspect) is a modest
> living selling bikes and parts. If he senses that a supply of popular
> tyres is going to go down, why can't he react to this information to try
> to make a couple extra hundred bucks?
>
> In the Boston area, virtually every store (except Belmont) that sold
> recumbents is now closed or is about to close. Do we want to wish the
> same fate on Zach? If he sees a (very minor!) business opportunity,
> shouldn't Zach do what he can to profit from it, and keep his operation
> alive?
>
> I remember a thread where everyone was decrying the lack of bent savy
> LBS people. Many people said they'd prefer to spend more and buy from
> someone who knows what he's talking about, than to buy mail order from
> an unknowledgeable source. Don't we really want people like Zach, who
> have lots of expertise -- which BTW we all make use of (free of charge!)
> via the net -- to earn the best living they can?
--
Harv
medium for free advertising. First Zach, then Lowbike...what's next? How about the
daily Performance special d'newsgroup, or Nashbar's deal of the day. Spam is spam, even
if the perp is a bentist.
What really puts a bug up my ass is the way Zach misspells tire! It's TIRE Zach.
Freewheeling
"Would you want to shop at any kind of store that will
immediatly raise prices on any products without viable market competition?
This
is what we have anti-trust laws for!"
With all due respect this is nothing like anti-trust. You not only have
substitutes, but alternative suppliers. It's also clear that Zach wasn't
being opportunistic as much as expressing what the tires (tyres) were worth
to *him*. Would you honestly insist on paying me less than what I feel an
item is worth, in the sense that I'd rather *not* sell, than sell at the
reduced price? What would you call someone who insisted that you sell your
house for $200,000, when it was worth $300,000 to you? Anyway, enough about
the Comp Pools already. Vreds and Contis are better anyway. Ed Gin talks
about casing failures on the Japanese CPs, and I can attest to this myself.
I had a CP that bulged under 110 psi., and went
thump...thump...thump...thump... all the way home.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Jeff Cowen" <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:39BEACC1...@mediaone.net...
HSherrod
>I don't care what Zach sells, or what he charges. I do object to using the NG
as a medium for free advertising.
I don't object to recumbent specific advertising when done within reason.
Nor do I see why there is a problem with what Zach wants to charge for his
Tyres. He does not have a monopoly. Having a free market gives us other
options. You aren't forced to buy from him - in fact someone else in this NG
said they would sell comp pools for $25.00.
What's the problem? Why are we whining about this?
Skip
John Schlitter
Imports told me that the mold for the IRC 451 Road Lite ex was broke and
they were no longer going to be produced. This cause a minor panic buying of
these tires. But as far as I can tell they're still being made and sold.
I wouldn't be surprise that these tires J&B is bringing in could be comp
pool copies, they have copies of almost every other Toga tire made now.
By the way if anyone wants a good price on a 451 IRK give RANS a call I
think they have a few left.
John
HSherrod <hshe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000912195232...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
Mitch Kirschner
> the Comp Pools already. Vreds and Contis are better anyway. Ed Gin talks
> about casing failures on the Japanese CPs, and I can attest to this myself.
> I had a CP that bulged under 110 psi., and went
> thump...thump...thump...thump... all the way home.
>
Agreed. I've had some sidewall failures on the Comp Pool's close cousin, the
Comp ST (a treaded version 90 psi tire), as well as on the venerable Comp Pool
itself.
Right now I like my Avocet Fasgrip 20x1.75 on my V-REX. After about 800 miles,
the center line isn't even worn fully down and the sidewalls look beautiful. The
same comments apply to the Ritchey Tom Slick 1.4 on the rear of the bike.
--
Mitch Kirschner
Monterey, CA
mkir...@ix.netcom.com
dru...@my-deja.com
then it is unethical to pay less when a product is in oversupply. Of
COURSE you will pay the lowest price you can find which will meet your
quality needs and timing; of COURSE any viable business will charge the
highest price that people are willing to pay. If no one will pay
Zach's price, he will have to reduce it or consume the tires himself.
This is just the workings of a free market. There is no "moral stain"
attached to either the buyer or the seller.
In article <39BF90FC...@mediaone.net>,
Jeff Cowen <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> With all due respect, that is a silly argument. Who said it's
unethical to
> buy something on sale? What I am saying is that a shop that shows a
> propensity for taking advantage of a product shortage at the expense
of its
> customers will cause some of us to shop elsewhere. You're welcome to
pay
> as much as you like, and I hope that every business and profession in
the
> area where you live will immediately begin conducting business
similarly.
> You won't enjoy it.
>
> My V-Rex took 4 months to be built and customized, and if either Rans
> [RANS] or Angletech had introduced a price premium for my "privilege"
of
> buying the bike [which was in extremely short supply], I would've
shopped
> elsewhere. Again, you're welcome to pay such a premium if you like.
I'll
> continue to do business with other shops whose practices are more in
line
> with what I expect.
>
> - Jeff
>
> dru...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > IMHO, those who are offended by this price increase should consider
the
> > opposite scenario. Suppose a given tire is suddenly in oversupply,
or
> > that a systematic defect has been found in it (of course, this never
> > happens with tires...) and no one wants to buy it. What is the
common
> > way that suppliers deal with this? They reduce the price. Does
this
> > mean that anyone who takes advantage of a sale is "opportunistic and
> > greedy" and is cheating the supplier, who is taking a loss on his
> > overstock? If you think buying a bargain is unethical, perhaps you
> > should move to a country where prices are set by government fiat,
> > rather than by market forces.
>
> --
> Jeff Cowen \@ ^\
> '98 Rans V-Rex \==-\-%
> Waltham, MA () O
>
> http://www.BlueSNAFU.com - v2.35
>
>
Morgan Jones
> With all due respect, that is a silly argument. Who said it's unethical to
> buy something on sale? What I am saying is that a shop that shows a
> propensity for taking advantage of a product shortage at the expense of its
> customers will cause some of us to shop elsewhere. You're welcome to pay
> as much as you like, and I hope that every business and profession in the
> area where you live will immediately begin conducting business similarly.
> You won't enjoy it.
Don't they already do that? Food, gas, housing, clothes - they all go
up in price when supply decreases or demand increases.
Look at it another way. I'm sure Zack gets orders from people who buy
Comp Pool tires from him because he has a connection who can keep him
stocked. Even if he doesn't, in some cases he may recommend a less
expensive tire for an application where he would have suggested the
Comp Pools. Part of his income is derived from that fact, and the
lack of availability will reduce his income. It seems perfectly
reasonable that, due to the lack of supply, he will shift to a
different part of the supply/demand curve to try to recoup part of
that lost revenue.
Morgan.
Jeff Cowen
> If it is unethical to charge more when a product is in short supply,
> then it is unethical to pay less when a product is in oversupply.
How can you make such a claim with a straight face? This is dumb.
> Of
> COURSE you will pay the lowest price you can find which will meet your
> quality needs and timing; of COURSE any viable business will charge the
> highest price that people are willing to pay.
This is another claim with little or no basis in reality. Are you saying
that all companies should and do gouge their customers at every
opportunity? Nonsense. They don't. And one of the prime reasons they
don't is so as not to alienate current and future customers. Hint, hint.
> If no one will pay
> Zach's price, he will have to reduce it or consume the tires himself.
> This is just the workings of a free market. There is no "moral stain"
> attached to either the buyer or the seller.
Fine, he is more than entitled to consume them himself. No problem with
that, and I hope he rides them in good health. But I think you should order
a $5000 bike for $6700. Get me one too while you're at it.
- Jeff
Tyro Vivo
already knew: That there are a lot of people ignorant about economics.
After all who would want to pay $2000+ for a BICYCLE?
Suggestion for a good read: "Free to Choose" by Rose and Milton
Friedman.
Jim
Viva la Vivo!
--
http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~jimfew
"I'd rather be a dirty old man than a senior citizen."
Jeff Cowen
> Don't they already do that? Food, gas, housing, clothes - they all go
> up in price when supply decreases or demand increases.
There were a few weeks around here when Drake's Cakes were in short supply, the
newspapers talked about how supermarkets and convenience stores couldn't stock
their shelves. To the best of my knowledge nobody started selling $.99 boxes of
DC junk food for $1.32.
Gasoline goes up when the station's cost to purchase it goes up, but they are
mightily and rightfully resented when they raise prices on reports of a shortage
BEFORE they've had to pay more for their own stock. Zach paid no "scarcity fee"
for his tires, but he's created one for his customers. If he'd said that Tioga
was charging him another 25% and that he'd have to raise his prices accordingly,
then that would be fully justified. I think there's a difference between
wholesale and retail pricing, and the latter depends on the former.
> Look at it another way. I'm sure Zack gets orders from people who buy
> Comp Pool tires from him because he has a connection who can keep him
> stocked. Even if he doesn't, in some cases he may recommend a less
> expensive tire for an application where he would have suggested the
> Comp Pools. Part of his income is derived from that fact, and the
> lack of availability will reduce his income. It seems perfectly
> reasonable that, due to the lack of supply, he will shift to a
> different part of the supply/demand curve to try to recoup part of
> that lost revenue.
No, there's no lost revenue for him. Nobody's going to stop riding and wearing
down or puncturing their current tires because of a dearth of Comp Pools. The
demand for good tires in general will remain exactly the same, Zach runs no risk
of loss of income from anything that happens with these Comp Pools.
FWIW, it should be pointed out that Comp Pools are not ideal for everybody.
Ignoring the reports of casing failures whose validity I don't know, some people
are better served by thin high pressure tires than by the CP's wide medium
pressure. In particular, the CP has very low rolling resistance, but relatively
bad aero resistance, which becomes more important at higher speeds.
- Jeff
Jeff Cowen
> All of you who are getting so upset over a price increase need to settle
> down. First of all, he can keep all of the tires if he wants to, but
> he's still willing to let them go. Second of all, the man's gotta run a
> business and make a living. The comparisons of raising the price of a
> gallon of water from $1 to $10 disturb me. That's a 1000% markup, and
> here we are throwing a fit over a 25% markup. If you all don't like
> it, you can shop someplace else for the tires, or you can start your own
> store. He's taking a great risk running a store in this lucrative
> business. Why do you think so many LBS's don't carry recumbents? I
> guarantee Zach could take some job and make more money without having to
> deal with this hassle.
We've been over the part where we disagree, so I'll just say that yes
running a bike shop is not generally a lucrative or secure business, and I'm
glad for the 'bent-only shops. I was very saddened when 21st Century went
under.
> I'm not trying to step on any toes, and I don't even know Zach, but I'm
> sitting here seeing a guy who always hands out free advice and passes
> along great deals to us, and now he's being publicly bad-mouthed and
> being accused of gouging. As was mentioned earlier, if you were going
> to die without these tires, and Zach had the only ones, that would be
> gouging. However, you can buy other tires, or you can buy from someone
> else.
We did not know until recently that they were readily available from other
sources. If you'd been following this group longer, you'd know that
historically they have been VERY difficult to obtain.
> I had a lot more respect for this group yesterday...
That may be, but we have the right to criticize each other here. I can
think he's being an idiot in this situation and respect other qualities of
his, and he can write me off as a jerk if that's what he feels. Nobody
died, life goes on, we'll all get over it. If you think this is bad, you
should've been around for the white supremacist trolls we had a month ago...
Take care,
- Jeff
Jeff Cowen
- Jeff
Tyro Vivo wrote:
> What I have learned from this thread is just a confirmation of what I
> already knew: That there are a lot of people ignorant about economics.
> After all who would want to pay $2000+ for a BICYCLE?
>
> Suggestion for a good read: "Free to Choose" by Rose and Milton
> Friedman.
--
Freewheeling
The practice of systematically selling below your cost is called "dumping."
It is considered both unethical, predatory, and illegal, though sometimes
difficult to prove. It is one of the charges frequently leveled against
Japanese firms, and the reason it works is that customers don't really give
a damn about the ethics of it. If the dumper eventually drives out
competition then, the customer reasons, we'll let *those other* customers
(possibly even another generation) worry about the consequences. Hence,
it's a form of the free rider problem.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Jeff Cowen" <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:39BFCEE5...@mediaone.net...
Al Kubeluis
I seem to be slurring when pronouncing "druryrf".
Anyway, I've followed this thread, and your comments below make the most
sense to me.
Lots of folks have made lots of good points.
In my opinion, if it's an illegal monopoly, then it's a different
situation. But when it's a non-essential discretionary item, just don't buy
it if the price ain't right.
Al Kubeluis
<dru...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8pohge$8dc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> If it is unethical to charge more when a product is in short supply,
> then it is unethical to pay less when a product is in oversupply. Of
> COURSE you will pay the lowest price you can find which will meet your
> quality needs and timing; of COURSE any viable business will charge the
> highest price that people are willing to pay. If no one will pay
> Zach's price, he will have to reduce it or consume the tires himself.
> This is just the workings of a free market. There is no "moral stain"
> attached to either the buyer or the seller.
>
> In article <39BF90FC...@mediaone.net>,
> Jeff Cowen <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> > With all due respect, that is a silly argument. Who said it's
> unethical to
> > buy something on sale? What I am saying is that a shop that shows a
> > propensity for taking advantage of a product shortage at the expense
> of its
> > customers will cause some of us to shop elsewhere. You're welcome to
> pay
> > as much as you like, and I hope that every business and profession in
> the
> > area where you live will immediately begin conducting business
> similarly.
> > You won't enjoy it.
> >
> > --
> > Jeff Cowen \@ ^\
> > '98 Rans V-Rex \==-\-%
> > Waltham, MA () O
> >
> > http://www.BlueSNAFU.com - v2.35
> >
> >
>
>
Jeff Cowen
Yes I understand. Dumping is all of those bad things, our semiconductor
industry has been murdered by it, at least memory manufacturers. But Druryrf
talked about buying something cheap [presumably on sale], not dumping. In any
case, I don't shop at Walmart regardless of how low their prices are, because
of their business practices.
FWIW, I think one of the common fears is that a Trek or Cannondale will
introduce an absurdly cheap 'bent, possibly as a loss leader, and drive all of
the low to medium range 'bent companies out of business. It'd be a disaster.
- Jeff
Freewheeling wrote:
> The practice of systematically selling below your cost is called "dumping."
> It is considered both unethical, predatory, and illegal, though sometimes
> difficult to prove. It is one of the charges frequently leveled against
> Japanese firms, and the reason it works is that customers don't really give
> a damn about the ethics of it. If the dumper eventually drives out
> competition then, the customer reasons, we'll let *those other* customers
> (possibly even another generation) worry about the consequences. Hence,
> it's a form of the free rider problem.
--
Freewheeling
If not then there were some special circumstances keeping the price down.
Besides supply/demand there is also market share to consider, and what role
the product plays in the marketing strategy of the retailer, who undoubtedly
sells other complementary or substitute products. If the strategy is to get
people into the store to buy some knickknack, and then induce them to make
larger purchases, it goes against the store's interest to increase the price
of the loss leader item. And they may not have had time to switch to a
different loss leader. There are frequently lags that affect the price
elasticity of an item. Failure to reduce price could mean that substitutes
were readily available, a fact which may not be obvious to a casual
observer. Don't know if that's what was going on, but people don't
deliberately countervail the laws of economics unless they're ignorant or
foolish.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Jeff Cowen" <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:39BFD33D...@mediaone.net...
Al Kubeluis
An excerpt from Washington Post today, Sept 14, 2000:
Some leaders now acknowledge that Western governments were remiss in not
cultivating a dialogue about global energy needs when the producers were
suffering. "We, the industrialized nations, must face the fact that we acted
irresponsibly toward the oil producers," said Italian Prime Minister
Giuliano Amato at a political conference in Italy.
"We complain now, but we forget what we did to them. These are developing
nations that derive their income from oil. Yet we did nothing when oil
prices slumped to $10 a barrel last year. We must realize the era of
globalization means we have to deal with the energy problem collectively and
not see it as a game of winners and losers."
© 2000 The Washington Post Company
We bikers are not just consumers, but we are producers also.
Al Kubeluis
"Al Kubeluis" <kube...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:96887614...@pizza.crosslink.net...
> > > Jeff Cowen \@ ^\
> > > '98 Rans V-Rex \==-\-%
> > > Waltham, MA () O
> > >
> > > http://www.BlueSNAFU.com - v2.35
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
Freewheeling
I would far rather have people question or challenge a concept than accept
it based on some ideological premise without actually understanding it. I
think you'd learn alot from a good micro-economics book. I found,
initially, that my intuition about this stuff was very ill-informed.
Economics is a powerful discipline, but it acts within the constraints of
culture. Why does a shopkeeper in Austria give you the correct change, when
he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by cheating you? This is a
genuine mystery to economists, and if you can solve it to their satisfaction
they'll award you a Nobel Prize. I'm serious.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Jeff Cowen" <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:39BFD582...@mediaone.net...
> Hi Korey,
>
> > All of you who are getting so upset over a price increase need to settle
> > down. First of all, he can keep all of the tires if he wants to, but
> > he's still willing to let them go. Second of all, the man's gotta run a
> > business and make a living. The comparisons of raising the price of a
> > gallon of water from $1 to $10 disturb me. That's a 1000% markup, and
> > here we are throwing a fit over a 25% markup. If you all don't like
> > it, you can shop someplace else for the tires, or you can start your own
> > store. He's taking a great risk running a store in this lucrative
> > business. Why do you think so many LBS's don't carry recumbents? I
> > guarantee Zach could take some job and make more money without having to
> > deal with this hassle.
>
> We've been over the part where we disagree, so I'll just say that yes
> running a bike shop is not generally a lucrative or secure business, and
I'm
> glad for the 'bent-only shops. I was very saddened when 21st Century went
> under.
>
> > I'm not trying to step on any toes, and I don't even know Zach, but I'm
> > sitting here seeing a guy who always hands out free advice and passes
> > along great deals to us, and now he's being publicly bad-mouthed and
> > being accused of gouging. As was mentioned earlier, if you were going
> > to die without these tires, and Zach had the only ones, that would be
> > gouging. However, you can buy other tires, or you can buy from someone
> > else.
>
> We did not know until recently that they were readily available from other
> sources. If you'd been following this group longer, you'd know that
> historically they have been VERY difficult to obtain.
>
> > I had a lot more respect for this group yesterday...
>
> That may be, but we have the right to criticize each other here. I can
> think he's being an idiot in this situation and respect other qualities of
> his, and he can write me off as a jerk if that's what he feels. Nobody
> died, life goes on, we'll all get over it. If you think this is bad, you
> should've been around for the white supremacist trolls we had a month
ago...
>
> Take care,
> - Jeff
>
>
Jeff Cowen
You bring in a vital point when you talk about overall strategy. That's exactly
what I've been trying to get at, the development of long-term customer relations
versus seeking a quick buck.
----
Just for the heck of it, I'll point out that there's such a thing as pricing too
low aside from dumping or other ethical consideration. Perception of quality is
usually affected by the cost of something. I've seen products that sold much
better when they were reintroduced at a healthy price after coming on the market
at a steal.
IIRC people didn't take Turbo Pascal very seriously at first because it sold at
only 20% of what other languages did at the time, but it was a splendid
product. An educational organization I'm associated with found no decline or
resistance whatsoever in speaking engagement bookings when we hiked our rates
considerably, suggesting we had long been under-charging for our services.
- Jeff
Freewheeling wrote:
> If not then there were some special circumstances keeping the price down.
> Besides supply/demand there is also market share to consider, and what role
> the product plays in the marketing strategy of the retailer, who undoubtedly
> sells other complementary or substitute products. If the strategy is to get
> people into the store to buy some knickknack, and then induce them to make
> larger purchases, it goes against the store's interest to increase the price
> of the loss leader item. And they may not have had time to switch to a
> different loss leader. There are frequently lags that affect the price
> elasticity of an item. Failure to reduce price could mean that substitutes
> were readily available, a fact which may not be obvious to a casual
> observer. Don't know if that's what was going on, but people don't
> deliberately countervail the laws of economics unless they're ignorant or
> foolish.
--
Jeff Cowen
ethics. When can I pick up my prize?
- Jeff
Freewheeling wrote:
> Why does a shopkeeper in Austria give you the correct change, when
> he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by cheating you? This is a
> genuine mystery to economists, and if you can solve it to their satisfaction
> they'll award you a Nobel Prize. I'm serious.
--
cle...@my-deja.com
"Freewheeling" <freewh...@bigfoottail.com> wrote:
> Jeff, et al:
> ....Why does a shopkeeper in Austria give you the correct change, when
> he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by cheating you? This
is a
> genuine mystery to economists, and if you can solve it to their
satisfaction
> they'll award you a Nobel Prize. I'm serious.
It's called ethics. Something that your economists apparently know
nothing about. So where's my Prize?
It seems from the balance of comments in this thread that a lot of
others don't either. If you think you are ethical and you've
overcharged someone 'Just because you could' Then you are also probably
using software that you didn't pay for either.
I've heard a lot of suggestions in the thread about how some people
should go back and take Economics 101. Well, back in school there was
another course that folks should have been taking: Ethics 101.
I believe that everyone is entitled to make a fair profit. If mark-up
is 20% then $5 was a fair profit for Zach. At $40 a _tyre_ I don't
think that 60% profit is fair or ethical. That is all I have said on
this subject.
I patronize my LBS whenever I can even though their prices are
generally higher. As long as I think they are making a fair profit
from me I don't mind paying for the privledge. I'd like to keep them
in business. We need each other. But if somebody tells me "I'm going to
screw you because you can't do anything about it" then I don't need to
give that person my business. And I've said so.
et al
Harv
figures his/her customer can too.
Is the reciprocal true; a customer will give back money if they get too much
change? BTW Scott, being the statistician, how many documented examples can yu
cite to support the correct change in Austria postulation?
Freewheeling wrote:
> Jeff, et al:
>
> I would far rather have people question or challenge a concept than accept
> it based on some ideological premise without actually understanding it. I
> think you'd learn alot from a good micro-economics book. I found,
> initially, that my intuition about this stuff was very ill-informed.
> Economics is a powerful discipline, but it acts within the constraints of
> culture. Why does a shopkeeper in Austria give you the correct change, when
> he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by cheating you? This is a
> genuine mystery to economists, and if you can solve it to their satisfaction
> they'll award you a Nobel Prize. I'm serious.
>
> --
> -Scott Talkington
> freewh...@bigfoottail.com
> Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
>
> snip
bent...@my-deja.com
does contribute to the general discussions of recumbent matters.
"Tyre" is the spelling used in the UK and Commonwealth nations.
Tom Sherman
tshe...@students.uiuc.edu
1999 Blue RANS TAILWIND/63 with green bodysock
2000 Red RANS ROCKET
.....O __...........O._.....
...__\\___\_.....__\\__\-%..
..(_)^^ %(_)....(_)^^^(_).....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In article <39BEB21A...@ios.com>,
h*don'tsendspam*han...@ios.com wrote:
> I don't care what Zach sells, or what he charges. I do object to using
the NG as a
> medium for free advertising. First Zach, then Lowbike...what's next?
How about the
> daily Performance special d'newsgroup, or Nashbar's deal of the day.
Spam is spam, even
> if the perp is a bentist.
>
> What really puts a bug up my ass is the way Zach misspells tire! It's
TIRE Zach.
>
bent...@my-deja.com
extreme environmental conditions, and for some of us recumbent bicycles.
:-)
Tom Sherman
tshe...@students.uiuc.edu
1999 Blue RANS TAILWIND/63 with green bodysock
2000 Red RANS ROCKET
.....O __...........O._.....
...__\\___\_.....__\\__\-%..
..(_)^^ %(_)....(_)^^^(_).....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In article <39BEA354...@cfa.harvard.edu>,
msch...@cfa.harvard.edu wrote:
>
> I appreciate your sense of injustice. But is it possible that
comparing
> Zach's price increase to price gouging water might be a little
> strong? (Or were you joking?) After all, Zach is selling bicycles.
> He's not selling medical services, or some commodity vital to the
> survival of innocents. We're talking bikes here...
Greg Dunn
authorship of the classic "Psychology of Computer Programming"), Weinberg
described how he set his consulting fees by way of what he called "the
principle of least regret".
"Set your price so that you'll be equally happy whether you get the job or
you don't," Weinberg advised. Personally, I think that's the only
sustainable position to take. If someone prices their goods or services at a
level where they'll be sorry if a customer does business with them, it won't
be long before they decide they no longer want to offer those goods or
services at all. In many cases the customer would have much preferred to
continue having access to those goods or services at a higher price than not
to have access to them at all.
I'm completely with Zach on this one. If someone doesn't like his price,
they should buy them from someone else. If they can't find the tires
anywhere else and they've really got to have those tires, then they should
be happy that he raised the price so he still has a couple left that they
can buy.
--
Greg Dunn
V-Rex, EZ-1, Redbent
(Please delete all capitalized letters from my return email address to send
me email.)
"Jeff Cowen" <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:39BEACC1...@mediaone.net...
Freewheeling
tires, though nothing recent. I have a FasGrip City K 26x1.5 on the rear.
Seems to work fine. I'll probably replace it with a Vredestein though, when
it wears out.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Mitch Kirschner" <mkir...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:39BF0000...@ix.netcom.com...
Jeff Cowen
$6700, bike that you have your heart set on. If he doesn't want to sell the
tires he shouldn't sell the tires. A punitive tax is unprofessional.
- Jeff
Greg Dunn wrote:
> In "Secrets of Consulting," a book by Gerald Weinberg (also famous for
> authorship of the classic "Psychology of Computer Programming"), Weinberg
> described how he set his consulting fees by way of what he called "the
> principle of least regret".
>
> "Set your price so that you'll be equally happy whether you get the job or
> you don't," Weinberg advised. Personally, I think that's the only
> sustainable position to take. If someone prices their goods or services at a
> level where they'll be sorry if a customer does business with them, it won't
> be long before they decide they no longer want to offer those goods or
> services at all. In many cases the customer would have much preferred to
> continue having access to those goods or services at a higher price than not
> to have access to them at all.
>
> I'm completely with Zach on this one. If someone doesn't like his price,
> they should buy them from someone else. If they can't find the tires
> anywhere else and they've really got to have those tires, then they should
> be happy that he raised the price so he still has a couple left that they
> can buy.
--
Freewheeling
"A punitive tax is unprofessional."
Punitive?? I guess there's no reasoning with you about this. Hope you're
taking advantage of the nice weather. There's supposed to be a cold winter
heading our way.
Jeff Cowen
play well in the snow. :( Maybe Zach has some Tioga knobbies I could buy. ')
- Jeff
Freewheeling wrote:
> Punitive?? I guess there's no reasoning with you about this. Hope you're
> taking advantage of the nice weather. There's supposed to be a cold winter
> heading our way.
--
dru...@my-deja.com
opposite scenario. Suppose a given tire is suddenly in oversupply, or
that a systematic defect has been found in it (of course, this never
happens with tires...) and no one wants to buy it. What is the common
way that suppliers deal with this? They reduce the price. Does this
mean that anyone who takes advantage of a sale is "opportunistic and
greedy" and is cheating the supplier, who is taking a loss on his
overstock? If you think buying a bargain is unethical, perhaps you
should move to a country where prices are set by government fiat,
rather than by market forces.
Jeff Cowen
buy something on sale? What I am saying is that a shop that shows a
propensity for taking advantage of a product shortage at the expense of its
customers will cause some of us to shop elsewhere. You're welcome to pay
as much as you like, and I hope that every business and profession in the
area where you live will immediately begin conducting business similarly.
You won't enjoy it.
My V-Rex took 4 months to be built and customized, and if either Rans
[RANS] or Angletech had introduced a price premium for my "privilege" of
buying the bike [which was in extremely short supply], I would've shopped
elsewhere. Again, you're welcome to pay such a premium if you like. I'll
continue to do business with other shops whose practices are more in line
with what I expect.
- Jeff
dru...@my-deja.com wrote:
--
Freewheeling
Nope, cold and snowy by most accounts... unless the jet stream changes
course.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Jeff Cowen" <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:39BF8428...@mediaone.net...
Joe Sacher
> Hi Morgan,
>
> > Don't they already do that? Food, gas, housing, clothes - they all go
> > up in price when supply decreases or demand increases.
>
> There were a few weeks around here when Drake's Cakes were in short
supply, the
> newspapers talked about how supermarkets and convenience stores couldn't
stock
> their shelves. To the best of my knowledge nobody started selling $.99
boxes of
> DC junk food for $1.32.
>
> Gasoline goes up when the station's cost to purchase it goes up, but they
are
> mightily and rightfully resented when they raise prices on reports of a
shortage
> BEFORE they've had to pay more for their own stock. Zach paid no
"scarcity fee"
> for his tires, but he's created one for his customers. If he'd said that
Tioga
> was charging him another 25% and that he'd have to raise his prices
accordingly,
> then that would be fully justified. I think there's a difference between
> wholesale and retail pricing, and the latter depends on the former.
You really believe that Gas prices go up when the cost to purchase goes up?
Why is it that a sudden scare (such as the seizing of Kuwait) caused an
immediate increase, when the actual cost would not make its way up the
pipeline for months (no pun intended). You can see this happen due to some
factor every year. Gas stations are an informal Oligopoly.
A better example is oranges. Prices actually do change only after a few
month go by following a freeze.
What if I buy and sell baseball cards. While they are being printed, there
is a set market price. What happens when they stop getting printed? Should
I sell this card for $0.25, or for the $25 that many are willing to spend do
to scarcity? Does that make me evil? It is called economics and
opportunity costs.
If Zach sold a tire, he gained $30. If he believes the value of the tires
now to be more than getting the $30, he has the right to either ask for $40
or keep the tire.
How about this: If my supplier will not supply me with products for 4
months. I usually sell 10 of these products for a $2 profit per month. In
these four months, I would have made 4 * 10 * $2 = $80. Now I will only
have 10 for these four months. If the market will support it, I can sell
those ten for an $8 profit. 10 * $8 = $80. Isn't that smart businees
sense. Those who don't want to pay the higher cost will buy any of the
available substitutes.
--
Joe Sacher
http://members.home.net/jsacher1/
"Those who complain the most, usually work the least."
Joe Sacher
> In article <gxRv5.76889$Ur3.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com>,
> "Freewheeling" <freewh...@bigfoottail.com> wrote:
> > Jeff, et al:
> > he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by cheating you? This
> is a
> > genuine mystery to economists, and if you can solve it to their
> satisfaction
> > they'll award you a Nobel Prize. I'm serious.
>
> nothing about. So where's my Prize?
>
> It seems from the balance of comments in this thread that a lot of
> others don't either. If you think you are ethical and you've
> overcharged someone 'Just because you could' Then you are also probably
> using software that you didn't pay for either.
How is Zach charging YOU and extra $10? YOU are not buying the tire. YOU
have a choice to purchase the tire at the new price or not. Substitutes DO
exist. YOU do NOT need this tire to live.
If Zach is charging more "just because [he can]", I would agree with you.
Zach is charging more, because $30 is worth less to him than a tire. If no
one purchases the tire at $40, he is happier than selling them all at $30.
These threads say that it is unethical for Zach to raise prices, he should
just keep the tires.
So, I shouldn't ask for a raise? If I feel my value has increased, I should
just quit? I shouldn't ask for $2 more per hour, I should just keep those
hours that I was selling. I feel that these hours are worth $2 more per
hour. If my company won't give it to me, I can go across the street to get
it at another company. Is it unethical to change jobs based on money? With
that make my company upset? Possibly. Will they ever hire me (purchase my
hours) again. Maybe not. Is the unethical for me to do this. NO.
Stealing: Unethical
Murder: Unethical
Raising Prices: If substitutes exist, this is just a business decision. It
may or may not be a smart one, based on some sort of loyalty that customers
(or employers) expect, affecting their future purchases. But it isn't
unethical. All resellers have markup. Some have more than others.
Resellers have the right set prices where ever they want. Customers have
the right to purchase from the location that gives them the highest
perceived value.
Joe Sacher
> The question is who would want to pay $2600 for a $2000 bicycle.
> - Jeff
If people are willing to pay $2600 for a $2000 bicycle, then was it really a
$2000 bicycle in the first place?
Where did the $2000 figure come from. I am sure that it didn't cost exactly
$2000 to build. The market dictates price. Supply and demand dictates
price. If the market would only pay $1800 for a $2000 bike, it would not be
a $2000 bike any more either.
zach_...@my-deja.com
A couple things to ask yourself before you put me in the greed driven
category.
1. When you placed your order for tyres and tubes a couple weeks ago how
was the level of service? Where your questions answered quickly and in
depth? Did the tyres arrive in a timely fashion?
2. If I'm really so greedy why wouldn't I sell you the Primo Champ
19-349mm tyre and tube you initially ordered for the front of your
Lightning?
Respectfully,
Zach Kaplan
cle...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <gxRv5.76889$Ur3.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com>,
> "Freewheeling" <freewh...@bigfoottail.com> wrote:
> > Jeff, et al:
> > ....Why does a shopkeeper in Austria give you the correct change,
when
> > he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by cheating you? This
> is a
> > genuine mystery to economists, and if you can solve it to their
> satisfaction
> > they'll award you a Nobel Prize. I'm serious.
>
> It's called ethics. Something that your economists apparently know
> nothing about. So where's my Prize?
>
> It seems from the balance of comments in this thread that a lot of
> others don't either. If you think you are ethical and you've
> overcharged someone 'Just because you could' Then you are also
probably
> using software that you didn't pay for either.
>
> I've heard a lot of suggestions in the thread about how some people
> should go back and take Economics 101. Well, back in school there was
> another course that folks should have been taking: Ethics 101.
>
> I believe that everyone is entitled to make a fair profit. If mark-up
> is 20% then $5 was a fair profit for Zach. At $40 a _tyre_ I don't
> think that 60% profit is fair or ethical. That is all I have said on
> this subject.
>
> I patronize my LBS whenever I can even though their prices are
> generally higher. As long as I think they are making a fair profit
> from me I don't mind paying for the privledge. I'd like to keep them
> in business. We need each other. But if somebody tells me "I'm going
to
> screw you because you can't do anything about it" then I don't need to
> give that person my business. And I've said so.
>
> et al
>
Jeff Cowen
retail price" as $1595 on their website. Lightning lists the P-38 for $2500.
Easy Racers lists their GRR for $2995. Joe and others, you have my
unconditional blessing to purchase a V-Rex for $2100, a P-38 for $3300, and a
GRR for $4000. Please let me know when you've done this. I'll be curious about
your customer satisfaction at that point.
Thank you,
- Jeff
Joe Sacher wrote:
> Jeff Cowen <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:39BFD73D...@mediaone.net...
> > The question is who would want to pay $2600 for a $2000 bicycle.
> > - Jeff
>
> If people are willing to pay $2600 for a $2000 bicycle, then was it really a
> $2000 bicycle in the first place?
>
> Where did the $2000 figure come from. I am sure that it didn't cost exactly
> $2000 to build. The market dictates price. Supply and demand dictates
> price. If the market would only pay $1800 for a $2000 bike, it would not be
> a $2000 bike any more either.
--
BentHeadSWB
I had this illusion that bent riders and sellers were concerned which way
the recumbent "religion" was spread. My ASSumption was the sellers were
concerned with getting as many butts in the seats as possible.
Zach was the MAN in my eyes...reasonable prices with knowledge and wisdom.
He knows recumbents...he rides recumbents, he sells recumbents, he rides
brevets, what a cycing guy. It was my fault of putting a fellow cyclist up on
a pedestal in regards to business practices. He was honest and let everyone
know, I will give him that.
Jacking prices up on existing stock is called price gouging, stores do
it...they just don't put up billboards screaming it out to the world. It is
not illegal. It shocked me that a fellow bent rider would actually do that to
his own.
Growing up in my hometown, the local bike shop bent backwards to fulfill
my needs. It seems in the last decade or so the bike shops want to bend me
over. I was screwed at LBSs in AL and AR, let the world know about it for
years afterwards. It is not the money, it is not the money, it is not the
money....
I can buy bicycle parts from Performance, Nashbar and others for less. My
LBS knows me, says hello and will try to provide whatever strange part or
service I need.
I asked if they could get a Sun BFR rim to put on that Phil Wood hub I just
purchased. They said they could not supply the rim but to buy it elsewere so I
had the wheel I wanted. They did not try to talk me out of using the BFR, no
"the XXXX rim is stronger, lighter and glows in the dark" tactics. Dan's BMX
hooked me up with a BFR rim and the LBS strung up the wheel. I left happy and
loyal. (Dan's BMX has amazing service and great prices.)
The mathematical calculation for determining sales vs the cost of the
item, what a formula! ZZZZZZZZ Is there a formula for reputation damage?
Would I buy a Firestone Comp Pool for $10? Would I use a Firestone condom even
if they were free? Does my economics professor still hate me? (yes) Does the
medication I am taking make me edgy?
BTW, the Conti 28mm tire is much lighter and more aerodynamic than the
Comp Pools.... If it really mattered to me that is.
John H
N TX
Freewheeling
> nothing about. So where's my Prize?
Well, I assume you know that's a flippant answer and that economists know as
well as anyone what ethics are. Of course ethics lie at the bottom of the
behavior... but what secures morals and ethics when people don't know one
another? Who's watching? What anchors morals, ethics, and other rules of
just conduct in an impersonal society without any real world sanctions for
breaking the rules, and where reputations are unknown, and unlikely to have
a reward or consequence? You walk into the shop in Austria giving the
keeper the benefit of the doubt, and often as not you're right to do so. So
you just take this incredible situation for granted? Why?
> Before you buy.
Freewheeling
"Austrians probably learn to count in school, and the shopkeeper can count
and
figures his/her customer can too."
Actually, the way the problem runs is that the shopkeeper can count, but you
can't, and he knows that. In other words, you're unfamiliar with the
currency and trust him to give you the correct change. In most cases he
will. I think it says something profound about human nature, but I'm not
sure what. It's like the voting dilemma, familiar to most political
scientists. If people accurately accounted their costs in voting, and the
chances that their vote would make a difference in the outcome, and that the
outcome would then make a difference in their lives, and then proceeded to
act in their own best interest, no one would vote. The costs always
outweigh the odds of making a difference multiplied by the rewards. And
it's not as though people are just too stupid to figure this out. Most
people know it intuitively, and vote anyway. I think we're just wired that
way, with some variation of course.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Harv" <h*don'tsendspam*han...@ios.com> wrote in message
news:39C02194...@ios.com...
> Austrians probably learn to count in school, and the shopkeeper can count
and
> figures his/her customer can too.
>
> Is the reciprocal true; a customer will give back money if they get too
much
> change? BTW Scott, being the statistician, how many documented examples
can yu
> cite to support the correct change in Austria postulation?
>
>
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
> > Jeff, et al:
> >
> > I would far rather have people question or challenge a concept than
accept
> > it based on some ideological premise without actually understanding it.
I
> > think you'd learn alot from a good micro-economics book. I found,
> > initially, that my intuition about this stuff was very ill-informed.
> > Economics is a powerful discipline, but it acts within the constraints
of
> > culture. Why does a shopkeeper in Austria give you the correct change,
when
> > he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by cheating you? This is
a
> > genuine mystery to economists, and if you can solve it to their
satisfaction
> > they'll award you a Nobel Prize. I'm serious.
> >
> > --
> > -Scott Talkington
> > freewh...@bigfoottail.com
> > Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
> >
> > snip
>
Jeff Cowen
I'm confused. You seem to have it backwards -- ethics are meaningless if you
only apply them when someone is watching or for a reward. They are primarily
useful when nobody is watching and when there is no expectation of a reward.
You're doing good because it's right, that's all. I think most people are
fundamentally good, but I lock my apartment door anyway.
- Jeff
Freewheeling wrote:
> > It's called ethics. Something that your economists apparently know
> > nothing about. So where's my Prize?
>
> Well, I assume you know that's a flippant answer and that economists know as
> well as anyone what ethics are. Of course ethics lie at the bottom of the
> behavior... but what secures morals and ethics when people don't know one
> another? Who's watching? What anchors morals, ethics, and other rules of
> just conduct in an impersonal society without any real world sanctions for
> breaking the rules, and where reputations are unknown, and unlikely to have
> a reward or consequence? You walk into the shop in Austria giving the
> keeper the benefit of the doubt, and often as not you're right to do so. So
> you just take this incredible situation for granted? Why?
--
Bazza
When the VW new beetle came out, did you ever see one without a substantial
markup over sticker? Have you tried to purchase a PT Cruiser recently at
sticker price?
We live in a capitalist society - the law of supply and demand rules.
If you refuse to pay your local PT Cruiser dealer a price above sticker,
keep shopping for a better deal, or wait for the furor to die down.
If you don't like Zach's price on Comp Pools, go elsewhere.
I for one, appreciate his comments, insights, and yes, even his subtle (or
not so subtle) advertising to us on this NG that he can solve a particular
problem or has a particular item... and after this thread, I'll add that I
appreciate his candor. You don't have to like it, but you know where you
stand.
Stay with us Zach!
bazza
Jeff Cowen <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
Bill G
I would, if when I got going fast it made me flip over ;-)
cle...@my-deja.com
In article <8pp9uq$646$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
zach_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Cletus:
>
> A couple things to ask yourself before you put me in the greed driven
> category.
>
> 1. When you placed your order for tyres and tubes a couple weeks ago
how
> was the level of service? Where your questions answered quickly and in
> depth? Did the tyres arrive in a timely fashion?
You already know the answer to that. Of course. This has never been my
issue. I stated so in my very first post on this thread. "Recently, I
made my first mail order purchase from you. This was based largely in
part upon the reputation that you had established in the NG"
>
> 2. If I'm really so greedy why wouldn't I sell you the Primo Champ
> 19-349mm tyre and tube you initially ordered for the front of your
> Lightning?
Perhaps my choice of the word 'Greed' in my first post was a bit
harsh. What word would you use to describe a 33% price increase on
stock already on hand? You are the retailer, what is a fair markup on
the wholesale prices that you have to pay?
My issue here is and has always been the ethics of your price
increase. John Harper, in his most recent post said it better than I.
So that you do not have to dig through all the posts to find it, I will
quote part of his post also:
" Zach was the MAN in my eyes...reasonable prices with knowledge and
wisdom. He knows recumbents...he rides recumbents, he sells recumbents,
he rides brevets, what a cycing guy. It was my fault of putting a
fellow cyclist up on a pedestal in regards to business practices. He
was honest and let everyone know, I will give him that.
Jacking prices up on existing stock is called price gouging,
stores do it...they just don't put up billboards screaming it out to
the world. It is not illegal. It shocked me that a fellow bent rider
would actually do that to his own."
There's more and IMO it is a post on this thread that should not be
overlooked. One other thing that he said in that post: "... Does the
medication I am taking make me edgy?"
I'm not taking any medication, what's my excuse?
Also respectfully,
Cletus Lee
Freewheeling
"You're doing good because it's right, that's all."
Thanks. That explains it. :-)
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Jeff Cowen" <Blue...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:39C06287...@mediaone.net...
Freewheeling
Interesting that the thread took this direction, rather than question the
mystique of the Comp Pool. I'm still scratching my head. It almost
constitutes what economists call an abnormal good, in the sense that the
higher the price the greater the demand. Were it not for the fact that
these bubbles eventually burst I'd say you should keep the tires in a
controlled environment as collector's items.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
<zach_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8pp9uq$646$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Beth
Very nice post.
--
-Beth
BikeE FX, AT and rans gliss
Anchorage, Alaska
<cle...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8poqs1$kgq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Before you buy.
Beth
Peoples morals and ethics of course. That was such a strange post Scott -
reminds me of religious folks wondering how people can be moral and ethical
without believing in God. Its simple, thats what a moral or an ethic is -
its self imposed, not imposed by someone else or god or because you think
someone might be watching.
And of course you see this from the "wonder what happens if we studied
this" side and I from the emotional side.
--
-Beth
BikeE FX, AT and rans gliss
Anchorage, Alaska
Freewheeling <freewh...@bigfoottail.com> wrote in message
news:VUYv5.78336$Ur3.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Freewheeling
(I was prepared to let this just drop, until you proposed that the post was
"strange." I would have said it was more like axiomatic.)
Since when are morals and ethics "self generating?" Moral and ethical rules
are taught, for one thing. You learn them from others, and you also learn
to respect and observe them from others. Even more revealing, they have to
be justified as making some sort of "sense" and this sense is usually if not
always in reference to other humans. In fact, there are usually stories or
narratives illustrating the precepts, and the logic or rationale behind
them; which in turn may be religious or merely secular, or ideological. As
for "self maintained," there is a well documented tendency called
"rationalization" to ignore ethical rules when there's no consequence
associated with such a lapse, especially when there is a clear reward for
doing so and the conditions are repeated. One clue to all of this is the
fact that the final appeal made by those who object to someone's "unethical"
behavior is that their "reputation" will suffer. Clearly this is a
reference to the social context as the final arbiter. In truth, I know of
no moral or ethical rule that did not come into being through socialization,
or that is not maintained to some extent by the same process. If you know
of one then you're one up on me.
When you take for granted most of the process by which ethics and morals
emerge then you're severely limited in knowing how to protect them, to say
nothing of how to correct or perfect them.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Beth" <da...@alaskaREMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message
news:ss27cv...@corp.supernews.com...
> What anchors morals and ethics when no one is watching?
>
> Peoples morals and ethics of course. That was such a strange post Scott -
> reminds me of religious folks wondering how people can be moral and
ethical
> without believing in God. Its simple, thats what a moral or an ethic is -
> its self imposed, not imposed by someone else or god or because you think
> someone might be watching.
>
> And of course you see this from the "wonder what happens if we studied
> this" side and I from the emotional side.
>
> --
> -Beth
> BikeE FX, AT and rans gliss
> Anchorage, Alaska
>
>
> Freewheeling <freewh...@bigfoottail.com> wrote in message
> news:VUYv5.78336$Ur3.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Beth
from does not preclude them existing for the sake of feeling good about
oneself, in the absence of others.
--
-Beth
BikeE FX, AT and rans gliss
Anchorage, Alaska
Freewheeling <freewh...@bigfoottail.com> wrote in message
news:WKaw5.80247$Ur3.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Al Kubeluis
Well said. I agree.
Al Kubeluis
"Beth" <da...@alaskaREMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message
news:ss27cv...@corp.supernews.com...
> What anchors morals and ethics when no one is watching?
>
> Peoples morals and ethics of course. That was such a strange post Scott -
> reminds me of religious folks wondering how people can be moral and
ethical
> without believing in God. Its simple, thats what a moral or an ethic is -
> its self imposed, not imposed by someone else or god or because you think
> someone might be watching.
>
> And of course you see this from the "wonder what happens if we studied
> this" side and I from the emotional side.
>
> --
> -Beth
> BikeE FX, AT and rans gliss
> Anchorage, Alaska
>
>
> Freewheeling <freewh...@bigfoottail.com> wrote in message
> news:VUYv5.78336$Ur3.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Freewheeling
"...of course WE are social beings, but all of your showing where morals
evolved
from does not preclude them existing for the sake of feeling good about
oneself, in the absence of others."
I think some moralists would argue about the "feeling good" justification.
Martyrdom, for instance, is complicated. I have to say that ultimately I
just don't know where and how the "feeling good" fits in, or what it means.
Going against what you believe to be "just" behavior makes you feel bad, so
it's more like avoidance of feeling bad than the attraction of feeling good.
I think that explains the shopkeeper's behavior, to a degree, but of course
it doesn't explain why he feels one behavior is just and another not. And,
whatever it is, the same dynamic can also result in corruption. Nigeria,
for instance, is a country rife with corruption... because failure makes you
feel bad about yourself too.
Anyway, this is not a society centered on virtue... but rather centered on
rationality, in the hope that virtue will emerge spontaneously. To what
extent is this naive? This is not an "Umma," or charismatic society, but a
legal/rational society, and the issue for us is how to preserve just conduct
when ethics and morality are not central. We could make rationality
peripheral and virtue central, so that all behavior is governed by a sense
of virtue,... but we'd either have to agree on what was virtuous, or have
that imposed on us somehow. You see how this is not compatible with
Lockean/Jeffersonian values of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? You,
as an individual, can choose what is virtuous, and how much weight to give
that determination.
I suppose it's this dichotomy, between a virtue and legal/rational paradigm,
that motivated my original question. Given that we elevate rationality over
an intuitive or revealed sense of virtue binding everyone to the same set of
*compatible* values, how do we maintain virtue? It's not a strange or
trivial question.
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Beth" <da...@alaskaREMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message
news:ss2g56...@corp.supernews.com...
Robert Siegel
perceptions of ethics and/or morality has failed. They all failed even
though humans are, in fact, demonstrably better off if they
treat each other in an ethical and moral manner.
That is because humans are BOTH moral AND economic animals ... and our
collective economic self interest is almost always best served by a free and
unfettered market.
I believe it is a grievous error to confuse ethics with any perceived need
to set "fair" prices. Sure, ethics enters the marketplace, i.e. don't sell
poisonous products, etc. But a free market always will generate the
greatest wealth
and prosperity ... and some of that same wealth is used to further the
ethical, moral needs
of society.
***
So ... how about that RX? Do you think the FX's gearing and wheelset can
be swapped out to transform it into an RX? (And then back to an FX for off
road days?)
"Beth" <da...@alaskaREMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message
news:ss27cv...@corp.supernews.com...
> Cletus,
> Very nice post.
>
> --
> -Beth
> BikeE FX, AT and rans gliss
> Anchorage, Alaska
>
>
> <cle...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8poqs1$kgq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <gxRv5.76889$Ur3.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com>,
> > "Freewheeling" <freewh...@bigfoottail.com> wrote:
Marshall Dermer
on it," never trade with the seller again, and tell your friends.
These are all forms of social punishment, some immediate and some
delayed.
--Marshall
Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@uwm.edu
http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"Knowing how things work is the basis for appreciation,
and is thus a source of civilized delight." -- William Safire
Freewheeling
"Every socialist society that based its approach to economics on its
perceptions of ethics and/or morality has failed. They all failed even
though humans are, in fact, demonstrably better off if they
treat each other in an ethical and moral manner."
While I definitely agree with you overall, this still leaves unanswered the
very real problem that markets rely on a basic sense of "just conduct" that
is not produced by the market. (At least no one so far, including F.A.
Hayek and J. Buchanan, have been able to prove that the ethical structure
required by the market nexus arises spontaneously from market forces alone.
In fact, Buchanan believes quite the opposite.) Also, I think even Hayek,
the real father of "Reaganomics," would agree that ethics and morality can
intervene successfully in market dynamics at the village level, where people
know one another directly. So, not *all* socialist experiments have
"failed;" even though it appears to be something of a hothouse flower.
By the way, Hayek also felt that there was not only no way to prove that a
free market is efficient, but that it can only be "fair" to the extent that
we don't know whether the best producers will win the competition. In other
words, if we knew the outcome would be optimal we could begin to take
strategic actions that would undermine the unfettered quality itself, and
therefore insure that the outcome would *not* be fair in terms of the
distribution of wealth. Knowing at the outset that the outcome will not be
fair is problematic, to say the least.
(If people find this stuff tiresome, I can certainly understand. I continue
to study these things only because I'm one of those people who are paid to
do so. For the most part, I'd rather ride. However, I take it as a very
positive and healthy thing that some people seem interested.)
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Robert Siegel" <bobs...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:aYpw5.81$Cq6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Robert Siegel
argued the case with Hubert Humphrey when he and Hawkins introduced that
damn fool central planning bill in the 80s.
My NG post was truncated to fit the limited level of on this ng. So I
agree with the subtleties you introduce on ethics, fairness and "some
success" of socialist societies. But I believe they all essentially fail
when they attempt to set prices and allocate goods and services.
Anyhow, I like and respect Zach Kaplan and figure its his business what he
charges. He'll succeed or fail on his own (very considerable) merits, which
I think is the way it should be.,
"Freewheeling" <freewh...@bigfoottail.com> wrote in message
news:oErw5.83964$Ur3.1...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Freewheeling
"Anyhow, I like and respect Zach Kaplan and figure its his business what he
charges. He'll succeed or fail on his own (very considerable) merits, which
I think is the way it should be."
Agreed. Now, where the hell did I misplace that bike computer? Perhaps I
swept it under the rug?
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"Robert Siegel" <bobs...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:8nsw5.15659$6f1.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jeff Cowen
- Jeff
Robert Siegel wrote:
> I have read Hayek very thoroughly and even met him once. Also, I personally
> argued the case with Hubert Humphrey when he and Hawkins introduced that
> damn fool central planning bill in the 80s.
--
Harv
Harv, 'what's on after Cah Tahk?
Jeff Cowen wrote:
> Are you the Robert Siegel from NPR?
> - Jeff
>
> Robert Siegel wrote:
>
> > I have read Hayek very thoroughly and even met him once. Also, I personally
> > argued the case with Hubert Humphrey when he and Hawkins introduced that
> > damn fool central planning bill in the 80s.
>
my butt your face
sooo declasse. But I'm just another Nattering Nabob of Negativism.
bg
Jeff Cowen
my butt your face wrote:
> Thank-you. Not only does economic theory bore me to tears, but name dropping is
> sooo declasse. But I'm just another Nattering Nabob of Negativism.
> bg
>
> Robert Siegel wrote:
>
> > My NG post was truncated to fit the limited level of on this ng.
--
a@b
bent...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Wow! 100 postings in this thread.
>
> Tom Sherman
> tshe...@students.uiuc.edu
> 1999 Blue RANS TAILWIND/63 with green bodysock
> 2000 Red RANS ROCKET
>
> .....O __...........O._.....
> ...__\\___\_.....__\\__\-%..
> ..(_)^^ %(_)....(_)^^^(_).....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Harv
Freewheeling wrote:
> Harv:
>
> Be honest, you just aren't impressed by the name. I met Eugene McCarthy
> once in a planetarium. He's an exceptionally nice fellow. Anyway, there's
> only six degrees of separation so damn near anyone can name drop. All I ask
> is that there be a good story connected with it.
>
> Question: Why did the left mobilize against Nixon's "Guaranteed Annual
> Income?" That has to rank as the dumbest political move of the century. Oh
> well, maybe someday...
>
> --
> -Scott Talkington
> freewh...@bigfoottail.com
> Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
>
> "my butt your face" <k...@peacecenter.org> wrote in message
> news:39C2AD4A...@peacecenter.org...
> > Thank-you. Not only does economic theory bore me to tears, but name
> dropping is
> > sooo declasse. But I'm just another Nattering Nabob of Negativism.
> > bg
> >
> > Robert Siegel wrote:
> >
Robert Siegel
deleted the word "interest" ... as in "fit the limited level of interest in
this ng." I was just trying to keep my comments short.
No, I am not on NPR.
***
"my butt your face" <k...@peacecenter.org> wrote in message
news:39C2AD4A...@peacecenter.org...
> Thank-you. Not only does economic theory bore me to tears, but name
dropping is
> sooo declasse. But I'm just another Nattering Nabob of Negativism.
> bg
>
> Robert Siegel wrote:
>
Jeff Cowen
- Jeff
Robert Siegel wrote:
> No, I am not on NPR.
--
Freewheeling
Be honest, you just aren't impressed by the name. I met Eugene McCarthy
once in a planetarium. He's an exceptionally nice fellow. Anyway, there's
only six degrees of separation so damn near anyone can name drop. All I ask
is that there be a good story connected with it.
Question: Why did the left mobilize against Nixon's "Guaranteed Annual
Income?" That has to rank as the dumbest political move of the century. Oh
well, maybe someday...
--
-Scott Talkington
freewh...@bigfoottail.com
Cut the "tail" to respond by email.
"my butt your face" <k...@peacecenter.org> wrote in message
news:39C2AD4A...@peacecenter.org...
> Thank-you. Not only does economic theory bore me to tears, but name
dropping is
> sooo declasse. But I'm just another Nattering Nabob of Negativism.
> bg
>
> Robert Siegel wrote:
>