GH, KH, pH, co2 and super fish?
Frater N.S.
dammest thing. Doing a pH test I noticed that the pH was about 6.0 (or so I
thought, that was as low as the test kit went), I was expecting this due to
the kittly litter substrate that I had used on this tank. My plan was to
slowly buffer back up to about 7.0 then when I added co2 there would only be
a slight shift down to 6.6 - 6.8 with the concentration level of co2 I
wanted.
Getting close to buying the co2 tank and regulator I purchased a better test
kit that included tests for GH and KH and a more sensitive pH test. This was
my results.
pH = 5.0 or less
KH = 0 unmeasurable
GH = 4.5
Needless to say I was a little shocked at seeing a pH of 5.0 and no
buffering of the water at all. The fish have seemed quite healthy and
unstressed despite the low pH.
I then tested the water out of the tap. A pH of about 7.4 - 7.6 as always
but the KH out of the tap was 0 also.
I decided at this point to start adding buffer to the tank. I added 4 tsp of
Sodium Bicarbonate. The guy at the LFS had suggested to put 1 tsp per 5g for
a 1 degree shift, so I erred on the safe side and halved that.
After 4 hours I tested again.
pH = 6.8
KH = 3.5
GH = 4.5
extrapolated co2 = 16.4
I tested 3 more times also with other test kits for the pH. Same thing.
After digging around for a while and finding the actual KH shift per amount
of Sodium Bicarbonate I realized the I had put way more in than I meant to.
I was wanting to shift up by about 1 degree a day, not push it up to 3.5 at
once.
____________________
Question one: Does anyone have any idea how my pH went from <=5.0 to 6.8 in
such a short time without killing every fish in the tank. On the contrary
they seem happier than ever and possibly even their color is better.
Question two: Does anyone have any idea how I have co2 levels of 16.4 with
no external injection. I thought ambiant should be about 4-8.
_____________________
Additional Details if interested.
Tank = 40g Breeder
Filter = Fluval 203 ; activated carbon, bioballs, sponge.
Substrate = in 3rds. Bottom to top; clay kitty litter and Flourite 80-20,
Flourite, fine aquarium gravel 2-3mm
Heat = 77f
Light = 80watts, mixed cool whites and Vitalights 6500k
Plants = dense, mixed; 70% tank coverage
Fish =
2 Black Tetras
3 Cardnial Tetras
4 Congo Tetras
5 Von Rio Tetras
9 Rainbows (praecox)
2 Siamesse Algae Eaters
1 Otocinclus
1 Corydora
1 Wag Tail Platty (been around forever, sorta of a mascott)
--
Michael
Raleigh, NC
James Purchase
> Question one: Does anyone have any idea how my pH went from <=5.0 to 6.8
in
> such a short time without killing every fish in the tank. On the contrary
> they seem happier than ever and possibly even their color is better.
>
> Question two: Does anyone have any idea how I have co2 levels of 16.4 with
> no external injection. I thought ambiant should be about 4-8.
I can't answer question one - perhaps your fish are just lucky - any changes
to water chemistry in an aquarium should be made slowly, over a period of
days rather than hours, to lessen the stress placed on the fish.
But I can answer question #2. You are using the pH-KH-CO2 tables to
extrapolate your Carbon Dioxide levels. I believe that George Booth, who was
the guy who first made this popular, has a small bit on his website about
accuracy. If he doesn't, he should have.
There is a definate relationship between pH, Carbonate Hardness, and Carbon
Dioxide levels in an aquarium. BUT, in order to be able to extrapolate, with
ANY accuracy the CO2 from the pH and the KH you have to KNOW both of those
figures ACCURATELY. By accurate, I mean a lot more accurately than most pet
store test kits are likely to be - think more along the lines of a
laboratory grade electronic meter ($$$) for pH. And MOST pet store KH kits
are in reality alkalinity test kits, and while a lot of people confuse the
terms, alkalinity and carbonate hardness, while they may be similar, are NOT
the same thing. KH refers to the presence of specific components in the
water and while those components contribute to alkalinity, other substances
can also add to alkalinity (but not to KH) and "fool" a cheap test kit.
The most reliable way to know your tank's CO2 level is to buy and use a REAL
Carbon Dioxide test kit - the LaMotte one is accurate and good, and does not
cost an arm and a leg.
And should anyone think to shoot me down with - "well my test kit is good
enough" - remember that MOST chemical test kits are unable to distinguish pH
any closer than 0.5 of a unit, even the most expensive chemical ones only
real to 0.2 of a unit, and your ability to read the thing precisely might
not be up to snuff. In order to use the tables, you should know your pH to
within an accuracy of 0.01 and you have to 100% certain that you are
actually measuring KH and not using a $20.00 Carbonate Hardness kit which
is actually measuring alkalinity. and that you don't have anything in the
water (buffers other than carbonate/bicarbonate) which can throw off your
readings.
Having a dedicated CO2 test kit is by far the simplest way of doing it.
And while it is not impossible to have a high CO2 level in a tank where it
isn't artifically injected, it would certainly be highly unlikely (and way
too dirty and smelly for fish to live in). The 16.4 figure you give is not
accurate.
James Purchase
Toronto
Greg Letiecq
attack lately, and it seems you may now be weighing in on the side of some of
the new findings. I am actually somewhat unsurprised that your fish are doing
well, because it appears that all of your other parameters look good, and the
change happened slowly. Natural waters often have periods where the pH
falls dramatically, especially in early spring, as spring rains run off the
accumulated humic substances on a jungle floor. Fulvic and Humic acids
enter the water column, and guess what? The fish breed, especially some of
the species you have. Now that you've started attempting to chemically modify
your water chemistry, there is a possibility this good situation could change,
though.
Your pH shifted because there was no carbonate buffering available, other than
CO2. CO2 buffers at 4.7 to the best of my knowledge, and while it's not
carbonate, it's part of the carbonate buffering system.
The solubility of CO2 in water is greatly dependent on pH. As I understand
it, since there isn't HCO3- and CO3-- in the water at low pH competing for
solubility potential, CO2 can take all the available solubility potential.
This is not a real scientific explanation and may be far from the truth, but
it seems to explain it to me in a way I can grasp the concept. Essentially,
at low PH dissolved CO2 levels skyrocket. Note that this does not
necessarily pose a problem for aquatic life.
So what to do now? Celebrate. You have a stable water chemistry that can
provide you with a unique opportunity to possibly educate us all, and
maintain a unique biotope. Let us know how things go, write an article or
two for FAMA, and enjoy being able to effortlessly accomplish something so
many of us have no hope for.
Greg
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/2024/fish.html
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Doug
> After setting up a new plant tank ( been up a month) I have run into the
> dammest thing.
> Getting close to buying the co2 tank and regulator I purchased a better test
> kit that included tests for GH and KH and a more sensitive pH test. This was
> my results.
>
> pH = 5.0 or less
> KH = 0 unmeasurable
> GH = 4.5
>
> Needless to say I was a little shocked at seeing a pH of 5.0 and no
> buffering of the water at all. The fish have seemed quite healthy and
> unstressed despite the low pH.
> I decided at this point to start adding buffer to the tank. I added 4 tsp of
> Sodium Bicarbonate. The guy at the LFS had suggested to put 1 tsp per 5g for
> a 1 degree shift, so I erred on the safe side and halved that.
Good idea
> After 4 hours I tested again.
>
> pH = 6.8
> KH = 3.5
> GH = 4.5
> extrapolated co2 = 16.4
>
> I tested 3 more times also with other test kits for the pH. Same thing.
> Question one: Does anyone have any idea how my pH went from <=5.0 to 6.8 in
> such a short time without killing every fish in the tank. On the contrary
> they seem happier than ever and possibly even their color is better.
I have read of studies on tolerance to pH shifts in which fish (I don't
remember which species, but a few) were moved from pH 5 to pH 9 (!)
without apparent ill effects. You won't see me trying this, but it does
seem that many fish can handle a one off shift if they are healthy to
begin with. I'd say a certain amount of luck must be involved too (i.e.
low parasite load). I *think* that what often kills fish isn't the pH
shift per se but the weakened defenses which lead to fatal diseases. I
could be hopelessly wrong on this point. You might not be out of the
woods yet. Its possible that the fish are happier because a stress has
been removed.
> Question two: Does anyone have any idea how I have co2 levels of 16.4 with
> no external injection. I thought ambiant should be about 4-8.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that dumping in a bunch of
bicarbonate might do it. That may offgas over time.
> --
> Michael
> Raleigh, NC
Doug
Thanks for the info!
Doug
Frater N. S.
Still hungry, greedy little buggers as usual.
The biggest problem I'm having at the moment is reconciling my results with
the conventional information I have examined both on the net and in aquaria
books.
My plants are all healthy. I'm getting noticeable growth in most varieties
(average about 1/2 inch week). My swords have all added about 5 new leaves
in the last month. The fish are doing great; they are all active, good
color, and feed like piranha when I add brine shrimp. I'm not complaining.
In my earlier tanks with plain gravel or Fluorite, pH had pretty much stayed
about 7.0 +- .4
Plant growth wasn't quite as good and the fish seemed fine, but nothing
special.
I then planed to try to push the envelope a little. Clay substrate, co2
injection (non-diy), etc..
After getting the new tank set up with everything but the co2 at what I
thought was pH6.0 (but was more like 5.0) I had already noticed that the
fish seemed a little more happy, active, better color. So I held off a
little before getting the co2 tank and diffuser just to see what happened.
I was quite happy to see the new growth of the plants and continued health
of the fish. But I was, and still am to some extent, locked into the idea
that to get really spectacular plant growth I need to start adding co2.
(I've got two 20g tanks waiting for cuttings) This was the point that I got
the kit to test GH, KH. I wanted to be sure that I didn't push the pH any
lower and maybe even raise it a couple of notches.
The rest of the story is in my earlier post. I am starting to wonder now if
something other than co2 is limiting growth. I have been adding a commercial
trace supplement (Kents) but the most effect that I see is when I do a water
change 30-50%. After a water change my plants will almost immediately start
bubbling. Not a massive amount but very noticeable. This will last about 6-8
hours tapering off towards the end. I've tested by snipping a leaf off
before and after the water change and the o2 is coming out from the plants
and not just bubbles introduced during the water change.
I am not going to make any more changes for a while. I think my next move is
to purchase an actual co2 test kit to find out what my concentrations really
are and go from there.
Does anyone have any idea about what could the cause of the fresh tap water
causing the bubbling could be? Or at least a plan of action to determine it.
As usual I want to push things and see if I can’t get this reaction all the
time.
Michael
Raleigh, NC
**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****
Wutupfolks
causing the bubbling could be?>>
Well- this is all very interesting to me, as you are having the "problems" that
I am considering in my future tank, where I propose to lower the pH to 6.2 or
less, and utilize CO2 in a Amazon tank (that includes loaches as well).
I would be very interested in your findings, and your substrate set-up as well.
A stretch of my intellect and scientific understanding here... but maybe the
bubbles are present in the tank due to the fact that disolved O2 is higher when
you put new water in, so it "bubbles" out. Is it possible that as time passes,
the O2 is slowly driven to lower levels, and then the plants O2 is absorbed
immediately into the water column prior to forming into "bubbles"?
Hey- keep in touch- let's email or something- I am going to be working with
similar parameters soon, so I am interested in the progress.
Feel free to email me with complaints, criticism, or etc...
Always get at least two sources of info regarding fishkeeping... One you trust,
and one you really trust...
Steve Wolfe
> kit that included tests for GH and KH and a more sensitive pH test. This was
> my results.
>
> pH = 5.0 or less
> KH = 0 unmeasurable
> GH = 4.5
Without the buffering in the water, the pH can shift very widely and
rapidly. RO/DI water is a good example. Since there are essentially no
buffering species in it, even breathing on it can make the pH fluctuate
fairly rapidly because of the CO2. Imagine what bubbling CO2 into a
tank with no buffer can do!
> Needless to say I was a little shocked at seeing a pH of 5.0 and no
> buffering of the water at all. The fish have seemed quite healthy and
> unstressed despite the low pH.
I recall seeing a study where the pH was lowered very, very slowly,
and they didn't notice any ill effects until the pH was at or below 4!
It does depend on the fish, however.
> Question one: Does anyone have any idea how my pH went from <=5.0 to 6.8 in
> such a short time without killing every fish in the tank. On the contrary
> they seem happier than ever and possibly even their color is better.
Here's something to think about: You're stuck in the desert. You
have water and sunscreen, but BOY, is it hot. You wander around for a
week, and finally get back to an air conditioned building, where the
temp is about 40 degrees lower than what you were in for the past week.
It will feel nice, won't it? : )
> Question two: Does anyone have any idea how I have co2 levels of 16.4 with
> no external injection. I thought ambiant should be about 4-8.
If your room has poor ventilation, you'd be surprised how much the
CO2 accumulation from just sitting in the room breathing can affect your
tank. Even in saltwater tanks with high alkalinity levels, simply
closing the door to the room can cause enough CO2 buildup to affect the
pH. Also, try measuring during the day and a few hours after "lights
out".
steve
--
---------------------------------------
Domain name for replies is "inconnect".
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wayne jones
local water utility. This can verify your testst kits and also in some cases
eliminate the need to buy them. Once you know what is in your water it is
easier to adjust your water chemistry. Water also normally supplies certain
nutients such as calcium and magnesium if your water does not contain them
you need to add them. Also, I think you have added too many fish too soon to
your tank. I think it would have been better to have ensured that the plants
were growing well and your water chemistry was stable before adding so many
fish.
Russell Furlow
So if you add;
A) Warm water to cold, you get "bubbles."
or
B) Cold water to warm, you get "bubbles."
It's just the O2 equalizing, happens to me every time I change water. I don't normally equalize the temperature of the new water going in with my python.
I notice that if the "new" water is higher then the tank water I'll get plenty of "micro-bubbles" right around the hose and a lot that defuse through out the tank. A few hours later and all but the ones "stuck" under plant leaves are gone.
Frater:
Can you tell us what your Ammonia / Nitrite / Nitrate levels are, in both the tank and the tap water?
I'm not familiar with Kents, so I don't know exactly what is in it, but as a "trace element supplement" I'd bet your problem is lack of a MACRO-nutrient. I.E. CO2, Phosphate, Nitrate, Ammonia.
I say a macro-nutrient due to the fact that you say the plants;
"After a water change my plants will almost immediately start bubbling. Not a massive amount but very noticeable. This will last about 6-8 hours tapering off towards the end."
Does your tap water have chlorimine? If so do you use a de-chlorinater?
Do you have a problem with algae?
You are lacking in something, the trick now is to find out what. :)
--
Russ
Wutupfolks wrote in message <19990406234918...@ng93.aol.com>...
Snip....
Frater N.S.
Thanks for your input,
>> I notice that if the "new" water is higher then the tank water I'll
get plenty of "micro-bubbles" right around the hose and a lot that defuse >>
through out the tank. A few hours later and all but the ones "stuck" under
plant leaves are gone.
To make sure I wasn't being fooled by just that I snipped a leaf off before
and after the water change, and I'm sure it's the plants bubbling.
>> Frater:
>> Can you tell us what your Ammonia / Nitrite / Nitrate levels are, in
both the tank and the tap water?
No problem, as of 30mins ago...
Tap Tank
pH 7.4 6.5
GH 3 2
KH 1 1
Ammonia .25 1
Nitrite <.1 .1
Nitrate 1 1
Whoa! Thats the most ammonia I've ever seen in this tank. Hmmm. I usually
keep the pH at 6.8 or below. What may be happening here is when I buffered
the tank and the pH went over 7.0, ammonium changed to ammonia and the
plants couldn't utilize it any more. The tank just fell back below 7.0
yesterday morning.
>>I'm not familiar with Kents, so I don't know exactly what is in it, but as
a "trace element supplement" I'd bet your problem is lack of a
>>MACRO-nutrient. I.E. CO2, Phosphate, Nitrate, Ammonia.
Heres whats on the label...
Freshwater Plant 0-0-3
Soluble Potash (K2O) 3%
Copper (Cu) (Min) .00001%
Iron (Fe) (Min) .24%
.24% Chelated Iron
Manganese (Mn) (Min) .01%
Molybdenum (Mo) (Min) .0009%
Zinc (Zn) (Min) .00014%
Sources of nutrients
Muriate of potash, iron EDTA, manganes EDTA, zinc EDTA, sodium EDTA, cobal
chloride, copper EDTA, sodium molybdate.
Other ingredients
Deionized water, humic acid.
>> Does your tap water have chlorimine? If so do you use a
de-chlorinater?
Yes, AmQuel
>> Do you have a problem with algae?
Not yet. Knock on wood..
>> You are lacking in something, the trick now is to find out what. :)
Exactly. Right now I am trying to "hands off" other than water changes until
every thing has stablized back out after I added the baking soda. Its the
hardest thing for me. I want to tweak, tweak, tweak.
Next move I want to do is add co2 injection. I already have ordered the
equipment but I need to make sure I've gotten some kind of stability in the
buffering before I end up turning water into wine (well at least vinegar).
>>--
>>Russ
--
Michael
Raleigh, NC
Russell Furlow
> No problem, as of 30mins ago...
>
> Tap Tank
> pH 7.4 6.5
> GH 3 2
> KH 1 1
> Ammonia .25 1
> Nitrite <.1 .1
> Nitrate 1 1
>
> Whoa! Thats the most ammonia I've ever seen in this tank. Hmmm. I usually
> keep the pH at 6.8 or below. What may be happening here is when I buffered
> the tank and the pH went over 7.0, ammonium changed to ammonia and the
> plants couldn't utilize it any more. The tank just fell back below 7.0
> yesterday morning.
Snip.... I assume you've already made a water change.
> >> Does your tap water have chlorimine? If so do you use a
> de-chlorinater?
>
> Yes, AmQuel
Snip...
You should cut back on AmQuel. Once it "ties" up Ammonia, I believe, it has
to release it sooner or later. Besides your plant WANT the ammonia, so why
"starve" them? In all fairness this is a debated point and I personally only use
AmQuel when I HAVE to do more then a 50% water change.
> >> You are lacking in something, the trick now is to find out what. :)
>
> Exactly. Right now I am trying to "hands off" other than water changes until
> every thing has stablized back out after I added the baking soda. Its the
> hardest thing for me. I want to tweak, tweak, tweak.
Snip.... I assume you've hit the Krib site? Lots to read there. :)
> Next move I want to do is add co2 injection. I already have ordered the
> equipment but I need to make sure I've gotten some kind of stability in the
> buffering before I end up turning water into wine (well at least vinegar).
Snip.... You'll be surprised at how much more plant growth you can get with
CO2 addition. Even my DIY CO2 has made a tremendous difference. Now I'm forced
to use PMDD, (I still have Flourish left.), due to slowed growth. Admittedly I'm
way under stocked, 5 Cardinals, 9 Cory's, 3 Otto's, about 10 "Grass" shrimp, and
1 Sort of Otto (got to find this guy someplace), all in a 55 gal. I'm waiting on
my Leopard Angels (12) so soon I should be cutting back on the supplements, well
maybe.
Russ