Past "spin" into "writhing"
Jim Cub 3D
>First of all, I don't believe that the High Priest ever believed or said
>the He thought the Dai-Gohonzon was a "fake"! So, that is the "BIG Lie"
>part of this subject, which is a DECEPTION.
That's nice that you don't believe it. I don't believe the Cubs didn't win the
World Series last year.
>By JimCubby lying with it, that is proof enough that it was stolen, too.
>So, that is the other part of this subject, which is THEFT! That is the
>new-age SGI/NSSS modus operandi (M.O.), criminal mentality, to alter
>reality! [it rhymes] Therefore, JimCubby is an accessory after the fact
>to the original THEFT & DECEPTION !
Craig Bratcher saying it was stolen makes it true for you, huh? I assume,
then, that Kawabe reported the theft at the time; and that, now that a page of
the "stolen" memo has shown up at a Reform Priest website, that one of them
will be arrested any day now; and that, since Craig claims to know the contents
of the stolen memo also, he beter not set foot in Japan any time soon.
>He's just doing his job as a Lyin'Cubby to work the BIG Lie Memo Scam
>for all it's worth, on behalf of the SGI/NSS O.P.P. - Office of
>Propaganda Programs, aka. the OoPps Dept.! They forgot to airbrush or
>cover up the page number (51) on the bottom of the alleged "memo" before
>they put it out there as a complete document. OoPps! They did it
>again, and got caught lying & stealing again! OoPps!
Boy, are you stretching. If Kawabe numbered the pages, and there were NOT a
page number on the scanned page -- THEN there would be reason to question it's
authenticity. The presence of the page number INCREASES the likelihood that
it's genuine.
>
>That is why, as JimCubby wrote, NS believers have thanked Cult Watcher
>Int'l for being alert on cult watch patrol, to present the memo scam to
>arbn. readers ASAP! That was good watching out, CWI. He should be
>commended for his efforts to quickly communicate this latest OpPps
>campaign attack against the NS priesthood & religion, intended to strike
>it at it's very core of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism.
In the process, he's contradicted the official statements of the head temple of
your sect, and "forgot" to delete the word "Operation C" form the list of
things he says were "stolen", thereby confirming that Operation C really WAS
hatched by the priesthood. Did you thank him for THAT, too?
>Furthermore, JimCubby was LYING when he wrote & I quote, that "[NS]
>members have stated repeatedly that without it having been inscribed by
>Nichiren on Oct. 12, 1279, there sould [sic] not be ANY Gohonzon."
>Well, I have been closely reading postings by NS believers on arbn.
>since July 98, and I don't recall ever seeing anyone of them repeatedy
>making any such statement!
Just wait, it'll come up again. Kawabe Junior uses it in this famous "Dai
Gohonzon is a tree, your Gohonzon is a leaf" magnum opus; it's been argued that
the pirests had to give in to the militarists becauyse if they didn't the Dai
Gohonzon would have been jeapordized and that would be THe End; and of course
there;s the basic, fundamental tenet of your sect, that the high priest, as
physical custodian of the Dai Gohonzon inscribed in 1279, becomes enough of a
True Buddha that he and only he can zap power into other mandalas.
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Snipped your final two sentences. Still trying to diagram them.
Jim
Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
Reginald Carpenter
(CDT+5). Thanks for your reply.
1) Re. your 1st comment, You wrote that you didn't believe that the Cubs
didn't win the world series last year?! Well, just "Wait Until Next
Year"! like the Cubby motto says, JimCubby! You of all people should
know that! LOL. Now, if all of the other Cubs players on the team
would just hit 30 home runs this year like Sammy Sosa, too, then they
could win it this year! LOL.
2) Re. your 2nd comment, I see that you are still on the case pushing
the propaganda on the BIG Lie Memo Scam* which I renamed in the
subject/header. It is NOT because another poster says that it was
stolen; it's COMMON SENSE that says. it was stolen!! Any lying, spying
person who had access to, or worked at the chief priest's Nichiren
Shoshu temple where it was kept, just took it and copied it years ago.
That's how the theft occurred, just as any act of ESPIONAGE is routinely
done, JimCubby! The chief priest, who trusted other priests & lay
persons, would never know it or suspect anyone he knew would have done
that. So, no theft report was possible to be made, because the original
document was left or returned there! However, the unauthorized usage
of any document unknowingly taken from a business or institution is
still a crime!
3) Re. your 3rd comment, you fail to use any common sense, man! Leaving
the page number on the memo proves that it is an incomplete document
which cannot be quoted correctly without knowing what the h-e-l-l the
subject was in the first place! ?! The SGI/NSS Office of Propaganda
Programs, aka. the OoPps dept. is trying to quote what's written on that
single page of a long, detailed memo as if that is the main subject
itself. The presence of the page number INCREASES the likelihood that
it is NOT being honestly interpreted or used correctly. OoPps!
STUPIDITY strikes again! You must be a protege' of the "Buddy" Holly
school of the ILlogic!
BTW - speaking of my "buddy", he was the first leading new-age SGI/NSS
-mess- CULT member on arbn. to deny the power or validity of the
Dai-Gohonzon, which you have denied your CULT religion-organization
disbelieves. So, you lied on another recent posting that NO ONE in
SGI/NSS has ever said that.
4) Re. your 4th comment, I don't know if another poster (CB) has a copy
of the official NS response, and I haven't seen one either. So, I can't
comment based on your hearsay that he is contradicting anything issued
as a statement by the NS priesthood on this matter. You are mentioning
the old controversy about the alleged "Operation C" document, allegedly
"stolen" which I never saw either. It has never been proven that it
ever really existed either. So, your comment has no merit at all to me.
5) Re. your last comment, the essence of it is a very serious matter to
discuss about in Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism. As I have stated before
on Arbn., all matters regarding the Gohonzon and the meaning of the
Daimoku are in effect reserved for, or under the authority of the High
Priest! As a humble, NS Hokkeko member, I am obliged to respect Him,
and cannot get out of my place as a NS believer and debate that with
you.
Since you have previously stated on a recent posting that you have a
"large volume of NS publications", you should read the "100 Questions &
Answers To Refute the Soka Gakkai's COUNTERFEIT OBJECT OF WORSHIP"
regarding that matter. Another NS believer reposts it on arbn.
periodically, so he is probably more qualified to discuss it with you.
However, I won't use that excuse to avoid the matter, so you can accuse
me of that, JimCub. I can use my memory to recollect some things from a)
my prior SGI/NSS period of experience and b) studying under my former
Chief Priest of NST Myogyo-ji, Rev. S. Kawabe, to share with you. But,
first of all, he is NOT to be referred to as "Kawabe Junior", JimCubby!
a) I recall when former NSA/SGI or SGI/USA Eastern Territory Director
Ted Osaki (deceased) once spoke about the issue of the eventual
extinction of the physical object of worship, Dai-Gohonzon. His opinion
was that we would be able to travel to another planet thousands of years
from now and meet the Dai-Gohonzon again. Far Out! Now, I really liked
the man personally, but that was just NON-SENSE! That was typical of
the old SGI M.O., MISEDUCATION and OBFUSCATION!
b) I recall when Rev. S. Kawabe first lectured and used that "tree"
analogy regarding the Dai-Gohonzon and Gohonzon transcriptions from it.
Guess who motivated or stimulated him to do it? Me. He had only been
in the USA about 7-8 months when I was 1) trying to teach new temple
members the significance of the tree planted at Myogyoji temple by the
67th High Priest Nikken Shonin, 2) and using the tree analogy for a
"Telephone Tree" notification system, which I devised and Rev. Kawabe
approved for the whole city & interstate membership in 1992.
The "tree analogy" comes directly from Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism,
which you really don't know, of course! So, I will relate an excerpt to
you in the Gosho which states:
"If a tree is deeply rooted, its' branches will never wither." **
** from "On Flowers and Seeds"
Maybe that will give you a clue to figure out the tree analogy yourself,
JimCubby. Peace! } : < { 0
Jim Cub 3D
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) writes:
>
>2) Re. your 2nd comment, I see that you are still on the case pushing
>the propaganda on the BIG Lie Memo Scam* which I renamed in the
>subject/header. It is NOT because another poster says that it was
>stolen; it's COMMON SENSE that says. it was stolen!! Any lying, spying
>person who had access to, or worked at the chief priest's Nichiren
>Shoshu temple where it was kept, just took it and copied it years ago.
And common sense says that, if anyone in "Nichiren" Shoshu REALLY thinks it was
stolen, they told the police. And common sense says that, not that it's known
the Reform Priests have it, the police will be going after them. Have either
of those common sense events occurred?
>
>That's how the theft occurred, just as any act of ESPIONAGE is routinely
>done, JimCubby! The chief priest, who trusted other priests & lay
>persons, would never know it or suspect anyone he knew would have done
>that. So, no theft report was possible to be made, because the original
>document was left or returned there! However, the unauthorized usage
>of any document unknowingly taken from a business or institution is
>still a crime!
Ummm, you missed what the "Nichiren" Shoshu allegation is. It is NOT that it
was copied and returned -- that's why "Nichiren" Shsoshu says it can't itself
show us the memo. Supposedly, it was just TAKEN, gone, kaput. So, therfore, I
ask again: Were the polcie called in? Are they now after the Reform priests?
>3) Re. your 3rd comment, you fail to use any common sense, man! Leaving
>the page number on the memo proves that it is an incomplete document
>which cannot be quoted correctly without knowing what the h-e-l-l the
>subject was in the first place!
Actually, it shows that it's a genuine copy, and I wouod think ONE reason the
WHOLE THING wasn't published is because it would be very, very boring to have
to read through 51+ pages of meeting notes just to read one page worth of
relevant comments.
?! The SGI/NSS Office of Propaganda
>Programs, aka. the OoPps dept. is trying to quote what's written on that
>single page of a long, detailed memo as if that is the main subject
>itself. The presence of the page number INCREASES the likelihood that
>it is NOT being honestly interpreted or used correctly. OoPps!
>STUPIDITY strikes again! You must be a protege' of the "Buddy" Holly
>school of the ILlogic!
If the page number weren't included, and you knew Kawabe numbered the pages,
you'd be tellong us "because the is no page number, that shows it's fake".
Lame argument you're using here, Chief.
>BTW - speaking of my "buddy", he was the first leading new-age SGI/NSS
>-mess- CULT member on arbn. to deny the power or validity of the
>Dai-Gohonzon, which you have denied your CULT religion-organization
>disbelieves. So, you lied on another recent posting that NO ONE in
>SGI/NSS has ever said that.
No one in SGI dneies the power of the Gohonzon - I imagine that's why we
practice, because we realize the power of the Gohonzon. What Brian - and other
SGI members, including me -- maintain is that, it is ONLY becauise of the Dai
Gohonzon that we can practice and get benefit, that the DaiGohonzon is s uper
Gohonzon whose special power flows to the high priest who infuses other
Gohonzon with it, that if the Dai Gohonzon ceaases to exist the Daishonin's
Buddhism grinds to a halt. Not only did the Daishonin NOT ever mention this
doctirne, but it contradicts everything he DID teach
>4) Re. your 4th comment, I don't know if another poster (CB) has a copy
>of the official NS response, and I haven't seen one either. So, I can't
>comment based on your hearsay that he is contradicting anything issued
>as a statement by the NS priesthood on this matter. You are mentioning
>the old controversy about the alleged "Operation C" document, allegedly
>"stolen" which I never saw either. It has never been proven that it
>ever really existed either. So, your comment has no merit at all to me.
My comment on OPeration C is based on Craig's allegation that the Kawabe memo
was stolen. In making that allegation, he said it was stolen "along with
Operation C". If there was no Operation C, what was it doing among Kawabe's
papers?
>5) Re. your last comment, the essence of it is a very serious matter to
>discuss about in Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism. As I have stated before
>on Arbn., all matters regarding the Gohonzon and the meaning of the
>Daimoku are in effect reserved for, or under the authority of the High
>Priest! As a humble, NS Hokkeko member, I am obliged to respect Him,
>and cannot get out of my place as a NS believer and debate that with
>you.
In other words, the high priest can say any thing he feels like saying, and you
would feel no need to question him. Is that it? If that's the case, how can
you obey High priest Nikko Shonin's admonition to "not folow even the high
priest if what he teaches are his own opinions and not based on the Daishonin's
teachings? How would you even KNOW, since you wouldn't question him?
Didn't I ask you once before for your definition of "cult mentality"?
>Since you have previously stated on a recent posting that you have a
>"large volume of NS publications", you should read the "100 Questions &
>Answers To Refute the Soka Gakkai's COUNTERFEIT OBJECT OF WORSHIP"
>regarding that matter. Another NS believer reposts it on arbn.
>periodically, so he is probably more qualified to discuss it with you.
Not only have I read it, I've pointed out it's beligerent attitude towatd
Nichiren Daishonin many times. My fave is 93, where it says that what the
Daishonin says is heretical.
>However, I won't use that excuse to avoid the matter, so you can accuse
>me of that, JimCub. I can use my memory to recollect some things from a)
>my prior SGI/NSS period of experience and b) studying under my former
>Chief Priest of NST Myogyo-ji, Rev. S. Kawabe, to share with you. But,
>first of all, he is NOT to be referred to as "Kawabe Junior", JimCubby!
Hmm. Nor am I referred to as Jim Cubby. But yu don't see me complaining. I
just thoought Kawabe Junior would be more respectful than "Lil' Kawabe".
>a) I recall when former NSA/SGI or SGI/USA Eastern Territory Director
>Ted Osaki (deceased) once spoke about the issue of the eventual
>extinction of the physical object of worship, Dai-Gohonzon. His opinion
>was that we would be able to travel to another planet thousands of years
>from now and meet the Dai-Gohonzon again. Far Out! Now, I really liked
>the man personally, but that was just NON-SENSE! That was typical of
>the old SGI M.O., MISEDUCATION and OBFUSCATION!
Yeah, I don't know about that. If it were true, then we'd have to believe the
Daishonin;s Buddhism is universal.
>b) I recall when Rev. S. Kawabe first lectured and used that "tree"
>analogy regarding the Dai-Gohonzon and Gohonzon transcriptions from it.
>Guess who motivated or stimulated him to do it? Me. He had only been
>in the USA about 7-8 months when I was 1) trying to teach new temple
>members the significance of the tree planted at Myogyoji temple by the
>67th High Priest Nikken Shonin, 2) and using the tree analogy for a
>"Telephone Tree" notification system, which I devised and Rev. Kawabe
>approved for the whole city & interstate membership in 1992.
>
>The "tree analogy" comes directly from Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism,
>which you really don't know, of course! So, I will relate an excerpt to
>you in the Gosho which states:
>
> "If a tree is deeply rooted, its' branches will never wither." **
>
>** from "On Flowers and Seeds"
The Daishonin's use of the word "tree" does not mean "Now we can make tree
analogies!". In fact, in the Gosho you quote, he is talking about Dozen-bo,
his master (you know - the Nembutusu priest).
Much as you evidently would like it to be true, the fact is that the Daishonin
does NOT compare the dynamics of every individual Gohonzon in the world to a
tree.
>Maybe that will give you a clue to figure out the tree analogy yourself,
>JimCubby. Peace! }
I've gigured it out, all right: Kawabe doesn't have the slightest clue what
Nichiren Daishonin taught.
Jim
Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
Richard Thieme
get a chance I'll do the response from the Priesthood and Kawabe,
probably some time this week
Regards
Richard Thieme
(From a Member of the Yushu Goho Domei)
(Kawabe Memo)
No. 51
2/25/78 Kuraoka Tel:
- Koutokuji Matter
It appears that Kotokuji has told Mr. Imaoki of Ikedamachi that if he
quits the gakkai and follows the priesthood they will give him a Joju
Gohonzon if asked.
2/26/78 A Tel
- Time
Said that he definitely wants to meet with Mr. Akiya when he comes at
3:00 today.
Said that it may be rough on the 9th when General Director Morita comes
to Shinei Yagi's on the 9th.
2/7/78 Meeting with A at Teikoku H.
- Gohonzon in sanctuary.
Gohonzon in sanctuary is fake. Seen as a result of handwriting analysis
using various methods (character analysis). Possibly the daimoku and
formal signature copied from the honzon given to Nichizen which was
donated from Houdouin. Other characters those of Nichiji or Nichiu.
Tracing marks remain on the honzon given to Nichizen.
- G says this impossible.
G says it is impossible to have all appointments, recovering order
etc., carried out by the priesthood in the future.
- G feels that the idea that things will return to normal after two or
three years even if separation from gakkai occurs is superficial
(translation note: "too optimistic?" not sure I have the nuance right).
(Translator's note 2: Since these are notes, one could read this to
have the opposite meaning. "G has an optimistic view that even if we
separate from the gakkai, things will return to normal in 2 or three
years". (Translator feels the second reading is quite unlikely, but with
jotted in notes you never know)).
* Nichizen Honzon was first at Kitayama. Someone at Kitayama put it up
for sale. Nichio found this and purchased it (Gohonzon of the 3rd Year
of Koan)
(Translator's Note: Not sure here. Kitayama could refer to Minobu-san,
as Ishiyama refers to Taisekiji. Minobu is to the north of Fujinomiya
after all).
Cult Watcher International
<snip of another long diatribe about a single page of a memo.>
>I've gigured it out, all right: Kawabe doesn't have the
slightest clue what Nichiren Daishonin taught.
Jim<<<<
Hey Jim-
Gigure this out- Kreep Robinson's silly little spoon fed spin
on that single page of those notes has crashed and burned. The
Domei dimwit's whole story is full of holes, including the way
they claim that "A" means the HP when in fact it could mean
Akiya or even "asshole" for Ikeda.
But thanks to you idiots, Bruce and Marks honzons R us
business has been booming due to SGI members not knowing
the difference between a KHK honzon and the DaiGohonzon.
Keep up the good work!
Craig
http://www.cebunet.com/sgi/nakano.htn
"Buddhism is nothing but humanism."
Andrew357, SGI-USA member
"I could make some retort about the Nikken sect being only 9 years old,
but both the SGI and the Temple have firmly shown that Nichiren Show shoe
has not changed at all."
Chris Holte
"We finally have been apprised of what the other Sects of Buddhism have known
all along, that the provenance of the Dai Gohonzon is shrouded in Myth."
Chris Holte
"As long as we were part of Nichiren Shoshu we went along
with the idea that Gohonzon had to be authorized. Now that we are free,we can
"authorize" them ourselves."
Chris Holte
"NST seems worried we will have an Ikeda Sun Daigohonzon to replace
their Daigohonzon. Not a bad idea if you think about it."
Taichidee SGI member
"it is completely incorrect to continue thinking that the paper scroll
hanging in your butsudan is the source of benefit or lack thereof. It is your
FAITH ALONE (as manifested in your practice) that determines benefit."
Kathy Ruby, SGI member
"It's kind of sad that the faith of your sect is so superficial that you can't
admit that a physical mandala is a "religious icon", and can't even address the
thought that Nichiren Daishonin didn't actually inscribe the Dai Gohonzon
himself."
Jim Celer, SGI Living Buddha mag. Midwest Bureau CHIEF
"As for whether or not i would have encountered the gohonzon without
Taisekiji, remember there are other Nichiren Sects that dispense gohonzon.
You are hanging on to the illogical rationale that only Nikken in this
entire universe has the authority to dispense gohonzon."
...
"There are other sects of Nichiren's Buddhism that dispense Gohonzon
copied by their High Priest and even the dreaded KHK actually
have the best idea, a real Nichiren Gohonzon. Heck if i had had
a Nichiren Gohonzon, i would not have felt obliged to return the Nikken
gohonzon for disposal after our excommunication.(In my mind it is just
a copy and kind of arrogant to continue to inscribe them when technology
now allows for a real Gohonzon.)"
TaiChidee, SGI member
Demolishing temples is not a sin.
Building them is.
Julian Stevenson, Proud SGI member
'I do not believe that your NST "gohonzon" has any more magic
powers than any other mandalas issued by any lay group. I would even
venture to say that the KHK mandala may be a notch above the NST mandala"
Proud SGI member, ~ Lady_D...@rocketmail.com
"To say praying to the Gohonzon is the ONLY POSSIBLE way to manifest one's
Buddhahood, is to apply a restriction that the Daishonin did not."
> "Can SGI members now photograph the Gohonzon - and if not, why not ?"
"I can do whatever I please. This is not a "police religion" like NS."
S. A., SGI member
" I would try, to the best of my ability, to inscribe a Gohonzon, in English if I
had to. I would draw it on a cocktail napkin if that was all I had, or
paint it on the side of a mountain!"
Marilyn Carino, SGI Member
'So, is a particular Gohonzon mandala necessary? Well, if it is, the Dasihonin
was quite unmerciful in not giving one to ALL of his followers.
...by "envisioning the ultimate reality", or "knowing that to see
one's mind is to see the Buddha" one is in the presence of the Buddha
and the Law. Which means you CAN manifest your
faith and practice, and achieve kyochi myogo,
while looking at your computer screen.'
Jim Cub
"When SGI members say "Gohonzon" it specifies the Gohonzon inscribed by
High Priests of Nichiren Shoshu. For that reason, All Gohonzons are the same"
Steve Sonoda, Toda Institute Official
Christopher H. Holte
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
> Good evening, everyone. Response to JimCub3D posting on 7/16/99,
1:49am
> the propaganda on the BIG Lie Memo Scam* which I renamed in the
> subject/header. It is NOT because another poster says that it was
> stolen; it's COMMON SENSE that says. it was stolen!! Any lying,
> spying person who had access to, or worked at the chief priest's
> Nichiren Shoshu temple where it was kept, just took it and copied
> it years ago.
>
> That's how the theft occurred, just as any act of ESPIONAGE is
> routinely done, JimCubby! The chief priest, who trusted other
> priests & lay persons, would never know it or suspect anyone he
> knew would have done that. So, no theft report was possible to
> be made, because the original document was left or returned there!
> However, the unauthorized usage of any document unknowingly taken
> from a business or institution is still a crime!
>
document is correct than a crime of fraud is being perpetuated by your
High Priest -- who claims his authority from the very Dai Gohonzon that
he privately realizes is possibly not what he officially maintains it to
be. If the Document is real (and not forged or referring to someone
else) it means that your HP is guilty of fraud and Hypocrisy. Not
necessarilly of the legally criminal kind, but all the more criminal
because it is a crime against the law.
> 3) Re. your 3rd comment, you fail to use any common sense, man!
Leaving
> the page number on the memo proves that it is an incomplete document
> which cannot be quoted correctly without knowing what the h-e-l-l the
> subject was in the first place! ?! The SGI/NSS Office of Propaganda
> Programs, aka. the OoPps dept. is trying to quote what's written on
> that single page of a long, detailed memo as if that is the main
> subject
> itself. The presence of the page number INCREASES the likelihood that
> it is NOT being honestly interpreted or used correctly. OoPps!
> STUPIDITY strikes again! You must be a protege' of the "Buddy" Holly
> school of the ILlogic!
This does not make sense as fragments are often perfectly self
referential in nature. Perhaps the rest of the document was a
dissertation on the Kaimoku Sho for all you or I know. It may or may
be not being used correctly, but that has nothing to do with whether it
is part of a larger document or not. There are situations where what
you are saying may be true. I've seen it in Craig's snips where he
completely removes words that give a text it's original context. But
it is not illogical or stupid to take words to mean what they mean --
with a grain of salt for the fact that you don't have the context.
>
> BTW - speaking of my "buddy", he was the first leading new-age SGI/NSS
> -mess- CULT member on arbn. to deny the power or validity of the
> Dai-Gohonzon, which you have denied your CULT religion-organization
> disbelieves. So, you lied on another recent posting that NO ONE in
> SGI/NSS has ever said that.
>
The Gakkai is gradually being led to an honest appraisal of the Dai
Gohonzon, which neither denies the power nor affirms that the Dai
Gohonzon is exactly as it is represented by Nichiren Shoshu. Honestly
regarding a situation doesn't make us a "cult" in fact it affirms the
opposite. There are multiple points of views -- some influenced by the
Maltzes and Mark's of the world. We are all individuals here, just as
you are, and only a few of us can be said to speak for the organization
in any way at all, and they don't post to ARBN.
> 4) Re. your 4th comment, I don't know if another poster (CB) has
> a copy of the official NS response, and I haven't seen one either.
> So, I can't comment based on your hearsay that he is contradicting
> anything issued as a statement by the NS priesthood on this matter.
> You are mentioning the old controversy about the alleged "Operation
> "C" document, allegedly "stolen" which I never saw either.
> It has never been proven that it ever really existed either. So,
> your comment has no merit at all to me.
>
We do need the facts don't we.
> 5) Re. your last comment, the essence of it is a very serious
> matter to discuss about in Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism. As I
> have stated before on Arbn., all matters regarding the Gohonzon
> and the meaning of the Daimoku are in effect reserved for, or
> under the authority of the High Priest! As a humble, NS Hokkeko
> member, I am obliged to respect Him, and cannot get out of my
> place as a NS believer and debate that with you.
>
Indeed that is an issue because the HP will not debate it with us
either will he? We in the Gakkai humbly disagree with you on this
matter and believe that not only should we debate serious matters,
but we feel that the HP is not necessarilly any more qualified to
debate them than any other knowledgeable individual. The question
has always been one of wisdom versus arrogance. If the High Priest
were indeed the "Vessel of the Law" then it would be the height of
presumption to even second guess his opinions, Under such a situation
it is very arrogant to even question the wisdom of such a person as a
high priest. From behind the screen, or on a dais, such opinions sound
profound even if they aren't and the results are very comfortable and
"easy". No thinking necessary, just absorb the doctrines and believe
them.
Yet Buddhism doesn't give us such easy choices. Nikken having
demonstrated that he is indeed a common mortal like the rest of us,
when he told us to disband moved his opinions from behind the screen to
the market of ideas. Those seeking certainty either fled to NST, other
sects, or tried to turn President Ikeda into such a "High Priest". All
so that they didn't have to think for themselves. As you demonstrate
in your next paragraph -- everything is nice and scripted for the NST
believer:
> Since you have previously stated on a recent posting that you have a
> "large volume of NS publications", you should read the "100 Questions
> Answers To Refute the Soka Gakkai's COUNTERFEIT OBJECT OF WORSHIP"
> regarding that matter. Another NS believer reposts it on arbn.
> periodically, so he is probably more qualified to discuss it with you.
However, if one honestly studies Buddhism as taught by Nichiren
Daishonin one sees that the 100 questions and answers themselves raise
questions about the veracity and correctness of the "Orthodox
teachings" of Nichiren Shoshu. They are rather trite and revealing
doctrinal statements. It is difficult for anyone who is not a "true
brainwashed believer" to look at them and not wonder why they should
believe anything that is said by Nichiren Shoshu at all! The position
that the Gakkai's Object of Worship is counterfeit, for example, is
presumed solely on the statements of High Priests, which in turn is
presumed solely on the basis of documents that appear to have been
copied by or created by High Priests who have been in office long after
Nikko or Nichimoku's time. They answer questions with assertions
without providing proof, and provide proof that is only meaningful if
one accepts the assertions when they do provide justification for their
doctrines. There is no real refutation in the refutations, they are as
empty as hot air. A child who understands Buddhism could refute them,
and worse they show dishonest and convenient thinking on the part of
the authors of them.
So is it any wonder that people should be primed to believe that such a
thing as operation "C" could have been originated by Nikken? Or that he
himself doubts the veracity of the Dai Gohonzon? What other
explaination would there be for refusing to "authenticate it"?
Authentication should be easy for such an object if it is as intended!
It is only a problem if deception is involved. If the source of the
miseducation and obfuscation is institutionalized. A lie believed for
a long time is still a lie, though it may appear a fact to believers.
Many of us were loyal Nichiren Shoshu members, but Nichiren Shoshu
taught us that "Faith is Reason," how shameful that there is no actual
proof in the doctrines we thought could be verified through the three
proofs! All of this was exposed proceeding from the initial doubt that
was planted when the Shoshu priesthood and the Gakkai first went at
each other in the 70's over power issues disguised as "doctrinal
deviation" issues, and bloomed when the Priesthood ordered the SGI to
disband in a very arrogant and authoritarian manner.
>
> However, I won't use that excuse to avoid the matter, so you can
accuse me of that, JimCub. I can use my memory to recollect some things
from a) my prior SGI/NSS period of experience and b) studying under my
former Chief Priest of NST Myogyo-ji, Rev. S. Kawabe, to share with
you. But, first of all, he is NOT to be referred to as "Kawabe
Junior", JimCubby!
I realize that you hold Junior in special regard, but since we don't
hold him in such a regard we don't have to refer to him as Reverend
anything. What is there to reverence in such a reverend?
>
> a) I recall when former NSA/SGI or SGI/USA Eastern Territory Director
> Ted Osaki (deceased) once spoke about the issue of the eventual
> extinction of the physical object of worship, Dai-Gohonzon. His
> opinion was that we would be able to travel to another planet
> thousands of years from now and meet the Dai-Gohonzon again. Far
> Out! Now, I really liked the man personally, but that was just
> NON-SENSE! That was typical of
> the old SGI M.O., MISEDUCATION and OBFUSCATION!
>
Mr. Osaki was "ducking" the question. What was he going to say? That
the Dai Gohonzon will never perish? Or that if it does that is the end
of True Buddhism? What he did say was true in a way, we don't know
about thousands of years from now, or even tomorrow, the only thing we
know about is now. Perhaps he didn't know the final answer, but he did
know the principle of the path of the Bodhissattvas of the Earth to be
reborn with each other to teach enlightenment to others.
> b) I recall when Rev. S. Kawabe first lectured and used that "tree"
> analogy regarding the Dai-Gohonzon and Gohonzon transcriptions from
> it. Guess who motivated or stimulated him to do it? Me. He had
> only been in the USA about 7-8 months when I was 1) trying to teach
> new temple members the significance of the tree planted at Myogyoji
> temple by the 67th High Priest Nikken Shonin, 2) and using the tree
> analogy for a "Telephone Tree" notification system, which I devised
> and Rev. Kawabe approved for the whole city & interstate membership
> in 1992.
>
> The "tree analogy" comes directly from Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism,
> which you really don't know, of course! So, I will relate an excerpt
> to you in the Gosho which states:
>
> "If a tree is deeply rooted, its' branches will never wither." **
>
> ** from "On Flowers and Seeds"
>
> Maybe that will give you a clue to figure out the tree analogy
yourself,
> JimCubby. Peace! } : < { 0
>
> <<< Stone Eagle >>>
> Airborne in Cyberspace*
>
>
Jim knows "On Flowers and Seeds" and I have posted it to ARBN fairly
recently. The interesting thing about it is that it refers to Dozenbo,
who was Nichiren's Mentor -- and who never embraced his teachings.
Despite that fact Nichiren taught that Dozenbo would be enabled to
reach enlightenment through his relationship with Nichiren.
NMHRGK
--
<a href="http://dragon.lizardtech.com/>Gosho</a><BR>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/9011/">
More Information </a>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Jim Cub 3D
The dates go 2/25/78, then 2/26/78, then
>2/7/78 Meeting with A at Teikoku H.
I assume that is 2/27????
Jim
Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Christopher H. Holte <lio...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> The exception has always been documents that prove a crime. And if
> that document is correct than a crime of fraud is being perpetuated
> by your High Priest -- who claims his authority from the very Dai
> Gohonzon that he privately realizes is possibly not what he
> officially maintains it to be. If the Document is real (and not
> forged or referring to someone else) it means that your HP is guilty
> of fraud and Hypocrisy. Not necessarilly of the legally criminal
> kind, but all the more criminal because it is a crime against the law.
Don't be an idiot, Chris.
Given mention of Mr Akiya's name right above the "A" (see Richard
Thieme's translation), I think the "A" probably refers to him. But you
heard from a gak source that "A" means "Abe" and you believe it.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not listed in any dictionary?
--
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
http://members.aol.com/djuhl82848/page/index.htm
Kathy Ruby
message news:37933bea....@news.netnitco.net...
> The
> Domei dimwit's whole story is full of holes, including the way
> they claim that "A" means the HP when in fact it could mean
> Akiya or even "asshole" for Ikeda.
That's not what Kawabe said when you phoned him about the memo.
He knew all about it, because his father was one of the
participants. Do you expect us to believe that Kawabe Sr. would
be discussing the DaiGohonzon so frankly with Akiya? Or anyone
else other than his friend Abe?
And why would this memo even exist at Taisekiji if it wasn't an
important discussion between Abe and Kawabe?
Kathy
Richard Thieme
>
> Thank you Richard. Question:
>
> The dates go 2/25/78, then 2/26/78, then
>
> >2/7/78 Meeting with A at Teikoku H.
>
> I assume that is 2/27????
> Jim
>
Richard Thieme
Richard Thieme
>
> In article <7mvrv8$4h1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Christopher H. Holte <lio...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > that document is correct than a crime of fraud is being perpetuated
> > by your High Priest -- who claims his authority from the very Dai
> > Gohonzon that he privately realizes is possibly not what he
> > officially maintains it to be. If the Document is real (and not
> > forged or referring to someone else) it means that your HP is guilty
> > of fraud and Hypocrisy. Not necessarilly of the legally criminal
> > kind, but all the more criminal because it is a crime against the law.
>
>
> Given mention of Mr Akiya's name right above the "A" (see Richard
> Thieme's translation), I think the "A" probably refers to him. But you
> heard from a gak source that "A" means "Abe" and you believe it.
>
stated that he wanted to meet with Mr. Akiya. Anyway, the priesthood has
never denied that these conversations took place. Please wait for my the
letter from the Shumuin which discusses what they meant.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Richard Thieme
>
(snip)
>
> And why would this memo even exist at Taisekiji if it wasn't an
> important discussion between Abe and Kawabe?
>
My take on this is that the "memo" means a "memo" like notes on a
memopad, and not anything formal at all. The guy was probably just
jotting things down. Languages can be like that. We import terms from
another language (and memo was written in kana) and only import one of
the following connotations, which in this case was the idea of writing
notes.
Richard Thieme
>
(snip)
>. Please wait for my the
> letter from the Shumuin which discusses what they meant.
>
Try "please wait for my _translation filled with stupid typos_ of the
letter from the Shumuin. . ."
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Richard Thieme
S53.2.6, S53.2.7
That would be February 5, February 6, and February 7 of 1978. (yesterday
was a long day of contracts, and numbers have always been my weak
point).
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Richard Thieme
welcome any corrections.
Bureau of Religious Affairs
July 9, 1999
To All Believers:
Regarding the Crazed Theories Put Forth By the Suspicious Document
"Doumei Tsuushinn"
The July 7 edition of that suspicious document "Doumei Tsuushin"
contained an article slandering the Daigohonzon of the True Sanctuary.
This article concurred with a variety of crazed theories and doubts
concerning the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary that have been put forth by
members of heretical faiths. Worse than this, the article used a memo of
conversations that took place in 1978 between His Holiness The Lord Of
The Law (who at the time was head of the Study Department) and the
priest Jitoku Kawabe as the basis of its slander, by presenting the
contents of the memo as statements of fact.
His Holiness The Lord Of The Law has stated that there are major
differences between the matters stated in the Kawabe memo and the actual
content of the conversation.
Whilst this conversation took place more than 20 years ago, and thus
His Holiness does not remember all of his statements at that time, the
conversation was in fact an explanation to Rev. Kawabe of various doubts
that had been raised previously from outside of the sect concerning the
Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary, including a court case at the time. This
was an explanation that the High Priest made in his then position as
head of the Study Department. Consequently, His Holiness The Lord Of The
Law has stressed that there is no way that he would have said himself
that the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary is a fake, as it seems to appear
to have been presented in the memo.
Priests and laymen. Do not be shaken by this memo that contradicts the
facts, or by the malicious slander based on the memo. Rather see through
the maneuvers of the devil that would vilify (onshitsu) the 300,000
member grand Tozan of the Hokkeko in 2002, celebrating the 750th
anniversary of the founding, and progress in conversion and buddhism
with the priests and members as one, centered around His Holiness The
Lord Of The Law.
-- End
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Richard Thieme <rdth...@gol.com> wrote:
> I think it was a telephone call with "A" in which "A" stated that he
> wanted to meet with Mr. Akiya. Anyway, the priesthood has never
> denied that these conversations took place. Please wait for my the
> letter from the Shumuin which discusses what they meant.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Thieme
We await with bated breath for your translation.
--
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
http://members.aol.com/djuhl82848/page/index.htm
Reginald Carpenter
(CDT+5). Thanks for your response. First of all, I know that Chicago
Cubs baseball fans worldwide are disturbed by the fact that you did not
acknowledge them to reply the first paragraph of my original posting.
Don't you realize that they need your Buddhist compassion for losing
their last three games in a row? LOL.
Regarding the first four paragraphs of your reply to which you "cut &
pasted" from my posting, during the passing of time, Mr. R. Thieme has
posted his draft translations of the memo in question and the response
from the NS Head Temple, Taisekiji. [19-20 July 99] Now, there is no
need to engage any further in an argument over speculations made on
those paragraphs; i.e. the burglary or theft of the memo or notes, the
copying of it, and the enumeration of it (page number) either being left
on or taken off. So, I'll pass, making any comments on that, like you
passed, making any comments about your namesakes, the Cubbies!
Re. the paragraph about how SGI/NSS members feel about the Dai-Gohonzon,
I can't make out exactly what you meant to write because of your sloppy
typing and apparent omission of words in a disjointed sentence. Suffice
to say that there is plenty of material from past statements by some of
your members, including my "Buddy" Holly, and Taichi Dee, to dispute
what you wrote concerning their new beliefs about that, contrary to the
correct NS doctrines, which you also misstated or actually lied about
there. When you take the time to make a coherent statement out of that
new-age SGI/NSS -mess- religion/organizational view that you are doing a
FLIP-FLOP over in your sentences, then I can reply to it. I refuse to
respond to an incomplete statements and where you are talking out of
both sides of your mouth!
Re. your comment about the alleged "Operation C memo", I won't comment
about speculations about that either. Basically, I have only read about
it from the SGI/NSS stories printed up. Unless the misappropriations
(thefts) of the two alleged memos occurred simultaneously, it isn't
proper to mix them up together. I think that the NS priesthood's
position is that the alleged "Operation C memo" is a bogus thing made up
by the old SGI organizational leadership, which is another reason that
they were EXCOMMUNICATED from the Nichiren Shoshu religion in Nov. 1991!
So, there is no need to argue over it now in 1999.
Re. your comments to interpret what I wrote about the High Priest, you
wrote a question, "Is that it?" Answer - No, that is NOT it! That is
not what I wrote for you to quote! LOL.
First of all, I wrote to explain to you why I would not debate or
discuss anything, about the Gohonzon and meaning of the Daimoku, with
you. And, I think that I was very explicit about that, but you are
misreading & misinterpreting it.
Re. another question you wrote concerning how can I follow one of Nikko
Shonin's admonitions, my answer is simply that that is none of your
d-a-m-n business! I follow the 67th High Priest, Nikken Shonin, who
follows the teachings of Nichiren Dai-Shonin, who was followed by Nikko
Shonin and the successive High Priests concurrently back to Nikken
Shonin Himself. However, I am not going to "duck out" of your dumb-ass
question, JimCubby. Because, it's too easy for me to answer in addition
to my previous statement.
If a NS believer, specifically speaking as a NSH/NST member, has a
question about something that the High Priest has said, the correct
thing to do is to just ask Him about it! If that is impractical or
inconvenient for the person to do, then the correct procedure is to
contact their local temple's chief priest in order to obtain an
explanation from him. If he is unable to give an explanation about it,
then he will probably contact the Head Temple for an answer to the NS
believer's question. Also, the NS believer can write to the High Priest
about their question(s). So, like I said, it was easy for me to answer
your dumb-ass question! LOL.
Re. your last dumb-ass question in that paragraph about how would I even
know if the HIgh Priest is following the Daishonin's teachings, see the
above paragraph which also answers that dumb-ass question, too! LOL.
Re. your question about if you had ever asked me about my definition of
the term, "cult mentality," I don't recall you ever asking me that
before; but it should be self-explanatory. My favorite way to explain
how it applies to the new-age SGI/NSS -mess- CULT membership is your
"personality worshipping" of your "Sin-say" in verse & song! Needless
to say, it dominates what you write in all of your SGI publications.
What another no-brainer, JimCubby! Answering three dumb-ass questions
in a row is all I can take from you, so I will terminate my response to
your posting at this time, to not waste any more of my time. Peace! }
MariZap
you for taking the time and effort, Richard. I've really appreciated seeing
this memo and response issue get to the point where we might discuss their
contents, rather than speculate on whether it's a big scam or not.
mari
Reginald Carpenter
JimCub posting on 7/19/99, 1:39pm (CDT+5). Referring to the bottom of
his posting:
1) He wrote, that if the quote I wrote about Mr. Ted Osaki was true,
then people would have to believe that "the Daishonin's Buddhism is
universal." My reply to him is that if he believed that the "fairy
tale" story by Mr. Osaki was true, then JimCub and all like-minded
SGI/NSS members really DON'T believe that the Daishonin's Buddhism is
universal, or believe in it, period. They still believe in fairy tales,
which the Daishonin's Buddhism is NOT! You all are so UN-BELIEVABLE,
and BRAIN-WASHED into the CULT MENTALITY of MISEDUCATION and
OBFUSCATION, that you even want to believe a fairy tale like the one Mr.
Osaki made up, just because he was a l-e-a-d-e-r! Your CULT of
Personality worshipping extends to worshipping even your DEAD
ex-leaders, too! "How pitiful, how pitiful!" - N. Daishonin.
2) Well, that's one reason why I call him - JimCubby! Derived from
JimCub, the name fits his ignorance & immaturity about the true
teachings of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism, which is NOT the same as
Ikeda's Buddhism or Soka Buddhism, aka. the new-age SGI/NSS -mess-
religion/organization.
Listen Up! In the Nichiren Shoshu religion, you will NOT have to book
passage on a space shuttle flight thousands of years from now to meet a
new Dai-Gohonzon if it becomes extinct here on planet earth. Never
Happen! That will be only for SGI/NSS members going on a group Tozan
someplace in outer space! As a matter of fact, Nichiren Daishonin never
wrote about that in His Gosho either, JimCubby! LOL. 3) Re. JimCub's
comment about the Daishonin's use of the word "tree" in His writings, He
was teaching about His Buddhism in terms of nature that would be
understandable to a person listening to him or reading His teachings.
In the Gosho, "On Flowers and Seeds," my opinion is that He was post
eulogizing His deceased master, Dozen-bo; and paying a humble tribute to
him for having been His (Nichiren's) master when He was an acolyte
priest Himself studying at Dozen-bo's temple, and where He returned to
preach His first sermon about true Buddhism! As I've stated before,
Jimcub really doesn't know the Gosho, and that was a class example of
him reading it literally at face value, and not really understanding it!
Too bad for him that he doesn't realize that the relationship between
Dozen-bo and the Daishonin was transient, and Nichiren Daishonin was
really the master teaching the recipients of that Gosho the meaning of
the a) master-disciple relationship, and b) having a debt of gratitude
to one's master. That is my mini-Gosho lecture for your dumb-ass today,
JimCubby! But, I still won't teach you the meaning of the "tree
analogy" when it comes to involving the Gohonzon. It's much too simple
for a dummy to understand!
In conclusion, I have helped JimCub to figure out that it's really him
who "doesn't have a clue" about the true teachings of Nichiren
Daishonin's Buddhism, not a NS priest he wants to SLANDER by calling him
"Kawabe Junior" or "Lil' Kawabe". Rev. Shonin Kawabe has probably
forgotten more knowledge about Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism than
SGI/NSS members like JimCub3D will ever know. "How pitiful, how
pitiful." - N. Daishonin. Peace. } : < { 0
Reginald Carpenter
2:52pm (CDT+5). First of all, thank you for taking the time to translate
the memo in question for everyone on arbn. I believe that you have done
as much as can be expected from a person, without being able to ask the
priest who actually wrote it about it himself. What I have been able to
discern from it myself is that:
A) On the 2/25/78 date of the memo, that was just a note of a telephone
call, about an alleged statement that someone named "Kotokuji" ( a
Koto/lay leader) made to "Mr. Imaoki" of "Ikedamachi" (a street) about
leaving the Gakkai, and receiving a Joju Gohonzon if he ever did and
requested it.
B) On the 2/26/78 date of the memo, that was just another note of a
telephone call, about setting up a meeting with Mr. Akiya that day at
3:00pm; and with Mr. Morita on another date. [both were senior leaders
of SGI] [the note doesn't say who the meetings were being set up for]
C) On the 2/27/78 date of the memo, that was just a note of a meeting he
had with "A" at a hotel, and a discussion about the Dai-Gohonzon and
another Gohonzon. [it does not say who was making the remarks he noted]
He also made notes of remarks made by someone named "G". [apparently
"G" was a third person at the meeting]
(Regards to the word "Kitayama", that is part of the name of a temple -
Kitayama Honmon-ji]
IMHO - A wild innuendo has been drawn that "A" specifically said and/or
believed what is noted on that memo; therefore the innuendo was
transformed to become a wild SLANDER made against the current High
Priest. Peace! } : < { 0
Reginald Carpenter
(CDT+5). That was another dumb-ass posting, JC. You wrote & I quote, "
I assume that is 2/27 ????" Well, if you "assume" that, why are you
asking about it? Duh, if that note followed notes from previous dates,
what in the h-e-l-l else could it be, JimCubby?! I wrote a poem for you
about that. Want to hear it? Well, it goes like this:
"Please, sit down on your dumb-ass,
To keep your brain from passing gas!"
Thank you very much, thanks very much! LOL.
Christopher H. Holte
worry about that little man and what was said in a conversation 20
years ago!
In article <37940D...@gol.com>,
Richard Thieme <rdth...@gol.com> wrote:
> And here is my draft translation of the response from the Shumuin.
Would
> welcome any corrections.
>
> Bureau of Religious Affairs
>
> July 9, 1999
>
> To All Believers:
>
> Regarding the Crazed Theories Put Forth By the Suspicious Document
> "Doumei Tsuushinn"
>
> The July 7 edition of that suspicious document "Doumei Tsuushin"
> contained an article slandering the Daigohonzon of the True Sanctuary.
> This article concurred with a variety of crazed theories and doubts
> concerning the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary that have been put forth
> by members of heretical faiths. Worse than this, the article used a
> memo of conversations that took place in 1978 between His Holiness
> The Lord Of The Law (who at the time was head of the Study
> Department) and the priest Jitoku Kawabe as the basis of its
> slander, by presenting the contents of the memo as statements
> of fact.
The article "slanders the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary", Reverend Abe
raised the various doubts of the various sects, and this was reported
in the press. It is slander when they say it, but not when he says it,
because he was only restating the case of the others. However, if the
article is slandering the Dai Gohonzon then it is Reverend Abe
slandering the Dai Gohonzon, because the priests don't deny that those
are his words, only that they are taken out of context. So it is
slanderous to repeat doubts expressed by His Holiness"?
>
> His Holiness The Lord Of The Law has stated that there are
> major differences between the matters stated in the Kawabe memo
> and the actual content of the conversation.
>
> Whilst this conversation took place more than 20 years ago,
> and thus His Holiness does not remember all of his statements at
> that time, the conversation was in fact an explanation to Rev.
> Kawabe of various doubts that had been raised previously from
> outside of the sect concerning the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary,
> including a court case at the time. This was an explanation that
> the High Priest made in his then position as head of the Study
> Department. Consequently, His Holiness The Lord Of The Law has
> stressed that there is no way that he would have said himself
> that the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary is a fake, as it seems
> to appear to have been presented in the memo.
No of course not. But what Reverend Abe did do was express his doubts
that the Dai Gohonzon is entirely genuine, and that is not the same
thing. Moreover, this rebuttal doesn't include a clear refutation of
the memo. It just says the memo has his words wrong! It is as lame as
when Akiya tried to explain away Ikeda's 35th anniversary speech as
having had a doctored taping! This rebuttal doesn't even conclude "we
won the court case", or that "we have clear evidence that Nichiren
actually inscribed on a piece of camphor wood with sumi ink!" It
doesn't refute the handwriting analysis that puts the characters other
than the central ones as being those of later priests it just gives
the bland assertion:
>
> Priests and laymen. Do not be shaken by this memo that
> contradicts the facts, or by the malicious slander based on
> the memo. Rather see through the maneuvers of the devil that
> would vilify (onshitsu) the 300,000 member grand Tozan of the
> Hokkeko in 2002, celebrating the 750th anniversary of the founding,
> and progress in conversion and buddhism with the priests and
> members as one, centered around His Holiness The Lord Of The Law.
>
But this Onshitsu doesn't vilify the 300,000 members, it vilifies those
who are lying to them and deceiving them -- if the Dai Gohonzon indeed
is not what it is purported to be. The fact that a more detailed
rebuttal wasn't provided is not encouraging.
--
<a href="http://dragon.lizardtech.com/>Gosho</a><BR>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/9011/">
More Information </a>
Christopher H. Holte
In the reply the Priesthood Reverend Abe doesn't deny that he
discussed the subject, only that it was reported correctly. In and of
itself admitting that something is suspect is only honest. Where it
becomes a crime is when one knows the truth and withholds it for
expedient reasons. How sad it is to find out that the persons one
should be able to trust are lying!
In a earlier post I mentioned how Mr. Sudo, when he became HQ chief in
DC after Mr. Osaki left (I joined at that very time), made a cryptic
observation; "If I said that this was all a lie, would you quit
practicing", and we all said "No"!!!!! Turns out he was reading
various rags and was up on what was going on back in Japan! (this was
between 1974 and 1976 -- don't remember the date).
If there is no proof, that is fine, but if there are indications of
forgery and they are covered up, that is fraud.
In article <7n15te$jj7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Derek N.P.F. Juhl <djuhl...@aol.com> wrote:
> In article <3793EB...@gol.com>,
> Richard Thieme <rdth...@gol.com> wrote:
>
> > I think it was a telephone call with "A" in which "A" stated that he
> > wanted to meet with Mr. Akiya. Anyway, the priesthood has never
> > denied that these conversations took place. Please wait for my the
> > letter from the Shumuin which discusses what they meant.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Richard Thieme
>
> We await with bated breath for your translation.
>
> --
> Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> http://members.aol.com/djuhl82848/page/index.htm
>
Jim Cub 3D
>Rev. Shonin Kawabe has probably
>forgotten more knowledge about Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism than
>SGI/NSS members like JimCub3D will ever know.
Precisely.
Jim
Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
Jim Cub 3D
>
>He also made notes of remarks made by someone named "G". [apparently
>"G" was a third person at the meeting]
>
I believe G means "Geika", in other words, Nittatsu. Not staking my life on
it, but it makes sense that way.
Jim
Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
Jim Cub 3D
>
>A quickie for JimCub3D from Stoney. Re. your posting on 7/19/99, 5:52pm
>(CDT+5). That was another dumb-ass posting, JC. You wrote & I quote, "
>I assume that is 2/27 ????" Well, if you "assume" that, why are you
>asking about it? Duh, if that note followed notes from previous dates,
>what in the h-e-l-l else could it be, JimCubby?! I wrote a poem for you
>about that. Want to hear it? Well, it goes like this:
>
>"Please, sit down on your dumb-ass,
>To keep your brain from passing gas!"
>
>Thank you very much, thanks very much! LOL.
Hi Reg, how's it going today?
Jim
Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
Reginald Carpenter
(CDT+5). His posting was a reply to my posting, in response to
JimCub3D's posting on 7/16/99, 1:49am.
1) He wrote & I quote, that "The exception has always been documents
that prove a crime."
Apparently he meant, in reply to his "cut & paste" from my posting, that
it is legal for anyone to burglarize, pilfer, or copy any documents from
a place business or institution that one suspects "prove a crime."
Therefore, his logic is: it's legal to commit a crime to illegally
search & seize any evidence of a crime. WRONG! That's a LIE.
In a criminal case, even if the police did it in the USA, the defense
would make a motion to suppress any evidence illegally obtained in the
case and it would become inadmissible evidence in court; i.e. that is
known as the "exclusionary rule." CHolte does not know what the h-e-l-l
he's talking about! Next case!? LOL.
2) He wrote & I quote, that "This does not make sense, as fragments are
often perfectly self referential in nature."
I agree with the last part of his sentence in regard to a simple memo or
note, but the memo in question was presumed to be 51 pages long! The
whole memo would have to be inspected to know if that single page was in
fact self-explanatory or a part of a previous and/or later memo page.
Since a draft translation of it has been made & posted on this thread by
Mr. R. Thieme on 7/19/99, 2:52pm (CDT+5), my opinion is that that idea
by CHolte still can not be determined as being either true or false.
3) He wrote & I quote, that "The Gakkai is gradually being led to an
honest appraisal of the Dai-Gohonzon, which neither denies the [its]
power, nor affirms that the Dai-Gohonzon is exactly as it is represented
[to be] by [the] Nichiren Shoshu."
IMHO - 'The Gakkai is gradually being led to' HELL! There is no one
qualified to make an 'honest appraisal of the Dai-Gohonzon' except the
67th High Priest of Nichiren Shoshu, Nikken Shonin! He is the only
living Buddha who specifically possesses the heritage of the Law. But,
CHolte is making an admission that the new-age SGI/NSS -mess- CULT
religion/organization is gradually changing the true teaching of the
Nichiren Shoshu religion about its supreme object of worship. That is
another reason why they are all SLANDERERS & TRAITORS who were
EXCOMMUNICATED from the Nichiren Shoshu religion in Nov. & Dec. 1997!
4) He wrote & I quote, that "We do need the facts, don't we?"
Answer - Yes, we always do! Thanks to Mr.R.Thieme, we have his draft
translations of the memo in question and the "official" NS response to
it to debate/discuss instead of speculative theories about the contents
of those two documents. This is what his quote was about to reply to a
section from my posting.
5) He wrote & I quote, that "Indeed that is an issue because the High
Priest will not debate it with us either, will he?"
Answer - HELL No! He won't debate anyone in the new-age SGI/NSS -mess-
religion about anything concerning the Nichiren Shoshu religion, because
those are CULT members of the most SLANDEROUS & TRAITOROUS organization
in the history of true Buddhism! However, He will answer questions for
the sincere NS believers who are His followers as NSH/NST members.
Refer to my posting today in reply to JimCub on this thread for further
explanation about that, please.
6) CHolte also wrote & I quote, that "The question has always been one
of wisdom versus arrogance."
IMHO - he's got that backwards. It's always been the ARROGANCE of the
SGI organization versus the wisdom of the Nichiren Shoshu religion.
So,it's always been No Contest! LOL.
7) He also wrote & I quote, that "Nichiren Shoshu taught us that "Faith
Is Reason."
Answer - No, they did NOT! That maxim or motto wasn't even taught by
SGI. That is a figment of CHolte's warped mind that derives the phrase
from the old maxim/motto that said, "Buddhism equals reason" or Buddhism
is reason." Either way, he obviously flunked it!
8) Re. CHolte's comment about me having a "special regard for Junior",
referring to Rev. S. Kawabe, he wrote & I quote, that "What is there to
reverence [revere] in such a reverend?"
Answer - obviously, he wouldn't understand it even if I tried to explain
it to his low lifed-conditioned dumb-ass, so I won't. For anyone else,
it is because he is a NS priest!
9) He also wrote & I quote, that "Mr. Osaki was "duckng the question".
What was he supposed to say?"
Answer - He was supposed to say - the truth! If he didn't know, which
he obviously didn't and no one else does either, then he should have
simply said, "I Don't Know." Instead, he made up a quick answer, a
fairy tale, to appease the questioner & audience. I was there when it
happened. It was his way of being humorous and giving encouragement at
the same time. His motives were right, but his answer was wrong. No
problem - it doesn't matter now.
10) Last, but not least, CHolte wrote & I quote, that " . . . It refers
to Dozen-bo, who was Nichiren's mentor, and who never embraced His
teachings."
Regarding the Gosho,"On Flowers and Seeds," how does CHolte "know" what
JimCub3D "knows" about it? Refer to JimCub's own posting on this thread
about that, please. However, I will be fair to Mr.CHolte and give him a
"mini-Gosho" lecture, too! LOL.
Reiterating my reply to JimCub about that, 1) Nichiren Daishonin was
writing to post eulogize the deceased priest, Dozen-bo, to teach the
recipients of the letter about 2) the master- disciple relationship, and
3) repaying a debt of gratitude to one's master (mentor). In actuality,
He became Dozen-bo's master to enable him to attain enlightenment
posthumously. Peace! } : < { 0
Reginald Carpenter
(CDT+5). There you go again - priestbashing! The door was left open
for you to be able to take the WRONG meaning of that sentence. And,
that dry rash of humor of yours started itching you again. LOL.
That's OK, "Jimmy." That's what the English language allows in writing
sometimes - duplicity. I wrote & JimCub quoted, that "Rev. Shoshin
Kawabe has probably forgotten more knowledge about Nichiren Daishonin's
Buddhism than SGI/NSS members like him [JimCub] will ever know." And,
JimCub responded, "Precisely." So, he agrees with me!
Anyway, Rev. Shoshin Kawabe still knows more about NS Buddhism than all
SGI/NSS members, like JimCub, will ever learn to forget!
Mr T
Maybe it was "George." ;-)
--
Kurt
My new anti-spam measure:
to reply send to: martman at primenet dot com
Reginald Carpenter
A quickie for JimCubby from Stoney. Re. your posting on 7/20/99, 8:37pm
(CDT+5). Hello, Jimmy! How are you? It's going good today. Thanks
for asking. Peace. } : < { 0
Reginald Carpenter
(CDT+5). First of all, I had to change his subject/header to reflect
that "CHolte is a crazed LIAR, who SLANDERS the High Priest" * every
chance he gets to do it. He is just going hysterical trying to "read
in" something that isn't there, into the draft translation of a 21 year
old memo page of a private meeting. What a low life-conditioned, priest
bashing fiend he is, to try to put words into the mouth of a person
whose language he can't even read, write, or speak himself!
So, CHolte, please tell us exactly, word for word, sentence by sentence,
and by whom and in chronological order, and in the Japanese language
what each of the apparent three people at that meeting said! And, be
sure to tell us what time of the day or night it was, and what was
everybody was eating or drinking there, too? And, how much was the tab.
and who paid what on it? How much was the tip?
1) Re. CHolte's 1st paragraph, he wrote that the "article", which is not
in his posting, "slanders the Dai-Gohonzon of the [True] Sanctuary."
Comment - right there in his first sentence, "Crazy Chris" wasn't even
capable of copying the translation correctly, so how can he interpret
it? Answer - The FOOL can't!
Then, he wrote that Rev. Abe "raised the various doubts of the various
sects"; but where is Crazy Chris reading this from? I think the
translation read differently: " . . . various doubts that had been
raised previously from outside the sect," is not what he wrote to quote.
That's two LIES, not errors, Crazy Christ-opher!
Then, CHolte claims that " . . . if the article is slandering the
Dai-Gohonzon, then it is Rev. Abe slandering the Dai-Gohonzon . . . "
Huh?! What a ludicrous leap in logic!? Does that d-a-m-n fool actually
think that any rational person is going to believe that, except a member
of the new-age SGI/NSS -mess- CULT of Personality worshippers'
religion/organization?? I don't think so! Crazy Christ-opher just
formulated a "Far-Fetched Hypothesis", which is a logical fallacy.
First of the article was not written by either "Rev. Abe", the memo
writer, or any NS priest. So, that knocks out the floor (base) of the
illogical argument that the Crazy Chris is trying to stand his
hypothesis upon. Secondly, the article is not in the translation or in
his posting to even be able to read what it said, and the sketchy words
in the translation of the memo don't say exactly what it was that "Rev.
Abe" spoke about when he alleged "slandered" the Dai-Gohonzon of the
true Sanctuary by "raising various doubts of the various sects" in that
meeting.
Therefore, the unknown statements in the "article" and the unknown
statements of "Rev. Abe" are NOT logically related; and are logically
independent (unrelated). That is, they are except within the deranged
mind of Crazy Christ-opher!
And, therefore the remainder of his STUPID posting is moot for the above
reasons; and because it's my dinnertime! There's no need to waste any
more time on Crazy Christ-opher! War. } : < { 0
Cody
Mr T <> escribió en el mensaje de noticias > Maybe it was "George." ;-)
>
> --
> Kurt
>
You mean like in "George M. Williams"?
Cody in Spain
Richard Thieme
logging off for a while. This is cutting into my business work.
Bureau of Religious Affairs
July 10, 1999
To All Believers:
Apology and Testimony by Jitoku Kawabe
As stated in the previous circular, the article slandering the Dai
Gohonzon of the True Sanctuary in the July 7 edition of that suspicious
document "Doumei Tsuushin" used the records of Jitoku Kawabe (aka the
"Kawabe memo") as its basis. The following apology and testimony has
been made by Jitoku Kawabe himself:
I would like to state the following:
I have made many memos, and in most cases I have jotted these down after
the fact on the basis of my recollections of what I have heard. It is
also my tendency to be extremely subjective, and to write in that style.
This is an attribute of my personality.
If my recollection of the discussions at that time serves me, at the
time a variety of topics were discussed concerning the doubts presented
with respect to the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary, both during the then
ongoing court case, and prior to that incident. In this context, I had
asked about the possibility of distorted theories being raised, even
within our sect, concerning the relationship between the Dai Gohonzon of
the Sanctuary and the Gohonzon Conferred on Nichizen, which was
delivered to the Head Temple in 1970, since they were both large
Gohonzon*s and since they were similar in the thickness of the brush
strokes, and about refutations if these distorted theories were
presented.
The discussions made a very strong impression on me, and I cut out the
prior and subsequent context in making my notes, so that the context of
the memo appears to state that His Holiness the Lord of the Law had
stated that the Dai Gohonzon of the True Sanctuary was a fake. This was
a clear mistake in recording on my part.
I would like to sincerely apologize from the bottom of my heart for my
carelessness, which resulted in a memo that contained inappropriate
content, which contravenes the facts, being leaked to external parties,
thereby impugning the authority of the Dai Gohonzon of the True
Sanctuary, and even causing vexation to His Holiness the Lord of the
Law, and has further caused considerable inconvenience to all in our
sect.
The above is Rev. Kawabe*s statement. Priests and laity. Please
understand the true circumstances of this matter, and do not be shaken
by the malicious slander and vilification of the devil. Rather deepen
your faith in the Dai Gohonzon of the True Sanctuary and the law which
flows through kechimyaku (Translator*s note: someone (maybe John Ayres?)
might want to take a look at this Kechimyaku Housui. Not quite sure I
got the nuance right) which constitute the core teachings of our sect,
and progress even further to achieve the 300,000 member grand Tozan of
the Hokkeko in 2002, celebrating the 750th anniversary of the founding.
-- End
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Christopher H. Holte <lio...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Derek;
>
> In the reply the Priesthood Reverend Abe doesn't deny that he
> discussed the subject, only that it was reported correctly. In and of
> itself admitting that something is suspect is only honest. Where it
> becomes a crime is when one knows the truth and withholds it for
> expedient reasons. How sad it is to find out that the persons one
> should be able to trust are lying!
Reread the translation of the memo. It states that the allegations
that the Dai-Gohonzon is not authentic, came from OUTSIDE of Nichiren
Shoshu--NOT that Nikken Shonin EVER doubted Its authenticity.
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
> Derek;
>
> In the reply the Priesthood Reverend Abe doesn't deny that he
> discussed the subject, only that it was reported correctly. In and of
> itself admitting that something is suspect is only honest. Where it
> becomes a crime is when one knows the truth and withholds it for
> expedient reasons. How sad it is to find out that the persons one
> should be able to trust are lying!
What in the following paragraph do you not understand?
"the conversation was in fact an explanation to Rev. Kawabe of various
doubts that had been raised previously **from outside of the sect**
concerning the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary, including a court case at
the time. This was an explanation that the High Priest made in his then
position as head of the Study Department. Consequently, **His Holiness
The Lord Of The Law has stressed that there is no way that he would
have said himself that the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary is a fake, as
it seems to appear to have been presented in the memo."**
Richard Thieme
>
(snip)
> No of course not. But what Reverend Abe did do was express his doubts
> that the Dai Gohonzon is entirely genuine, and that is not the same
> thing.
Maybe he did and maybe he didn't, but I can say that there is nothing in
the original notes that demonstrates that he was expressing his own
doubts, rather than summarizing charges that were being made, and how to
refute them, as the priesthood quoted him in their rebuttal. If you got
your impression that Abe was expressing his doubts, from my translation,
then all I can say is either my translation was lousy, or you are
deliberately refusing to read the words as I wrote them.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Richard Thieme
>
(snip)
>
> A) On the 2/25/78 date of the memo, that was just a note of a telephone
> call, about an alleged statement that someone named "Kotokuji" ( a
> Koto/lay leader) made to "Mr. Imaoki" of "Ikedamachi" (a street) about
> leaving the Gakkai, and receiving a Joju Gohonzon if he ever did and
> requested it.
>
misread the dates (somewhat embarrassing to admit, but its true and it
came after a long day).
And its Imaoka, not Imaoki (Again a typo. Should have left this one for
another day to read over it, but I was under time pressure)
Kotokuji is a temple and I guess a priest at that temple told Mr. Imaoka
this (whether the Head temple approved of this statement or were saying
"geez what are we going to do? now we got a crazy priest offerring to
give out Joju's" is something I cannot answer). Also I dunno about
Ikedamachi. That quite possibly is a location. I suppose it could be
inside humor for those who were following Ikeda. Frankly I simply do not
know.
> B) On the 2/26/78 date of the memo, that was just another note of a
> telephone call, about setting up a meeting with Mr. Akiya that day at
> 3:00pm; and with Mr. Morita on another date. [both were senior leaders
> of SGI] [the note doesn't say who the meetings were being set up for]
For Morita, his title is given so that is a reasonable assumption. As to
Mr. Akiya, it could be the current SG president, or for all I know it
could be Kawabe's dentist. I simply don't know and Akiya is a fairly
common name.
>
> C) On the 2/27/78 date of the memo, that was just a note of a meeting he
> had with "A" at a hotel, and a discussion about the Dai-Gohonzon and
> another Gohonzon. [it does not say who was making the remarks he noted]
>
> He also made notes of remarks made by someone named "G". [apparently
> "G" was a third person at the meeting]
>
> (Regards to the word "Kitayama", that is part of the name of a temple -
> Kitayama Honmon-ji]
I thought about that too, but it appears that Ishiyama is used as
shorthand for Taisekiji, so maybe it could be Minobu (or it could be
Kitayama Honmonji) BTW is Kitayama Honmonji a Nichiren Shoshu Temple?
>
> IMHO - A wild innuendo has been drawn that "A" specifically said and/or
> believed what is noted on that memo; therefore the innuendo was
> transformed to become a wild SLANDER made against the current High
> Priest. Peace! } : < { 0
>
I agree that it is an innuendo, and it is more reasonable to believe
that they were discussing counterstrategies, but that is a supposition.
The only people who truly know were the people having the conversation.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Jim Cub 3D
>doubts that had been raised previously **from outside of the sect**
>concerning the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary, including a court case at
>the time
Does anyone know what "court case" this refers to?
Jim
Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
Derek N.P.F. Juhl
Richard Thieme <rdth...@gol.com> wrote:
No worries, your translation is fine. Thank you for your efforts.
Richard Thieme
time soon.
Basically the Supreme Court refused to rule on the key issues, stating
that they were a matter of faith, and thus outside their purview. The
suit was against the gakkai and based on alleged fraud in getting
donations for the Shohondo construction. Plaintiffs lost because the
court ruled that the issue was outside their purview. In the religious
legal business over here the case is referred to as the Itamandara
Jiken.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Reginald Carpenter
(CDT+5). You are guessing about what name the letter "G" stands for. I
can guess, too, but I don't agree with your guess - it doesn't stand for
"Geika." My guess is that it was another NS priest I know of who is a
close friend of the other NS priests, especially of who wrote the memo
page. Anyway, that was a private meeting that I was not invite to 21
years ago, so it would be wrong for me to give out a name for "G", or
any other letter of the alphabet! LOL. Peace! } : < { 0
Christopher H. Holte
chiefst...@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
> Good afternoon, everyone. Response to CHolte posting on 7/19/99,
6:49pm
> (CDT+5). His posting was a reply to my posting, in response to
> JimCub3D's posting on 7/16/99, 1:49am.
>
> 1) He wrote & I quote, that "The exception has always been documents
> that prove a crime."
>
> Apparently he meant, in reply to his "cut & paste" from my posting,
that it is legal for anyone to burglarize, pilfer, or copy any
documents from a place business or institution that one suspects
"prove a crime." Therefore, his logic is: it's legal to commit a
crime to illegally search & seize any evidence of a crime. WRONG!
That's a LIE. >>
>>>>>>>>>
Once again you are mistaking views of what is legal and views of what
is morally right and wrong. The Constitution of the United States
protects from the use of illegally gained evidence. But evidence gained
from private source snooping (by say whistle blowers) is frequently
used to make a case -- even if it is not allowed in the actual crime.
You have Whistle blowers in your organization, and they usually pass
information to the Gakkai. You call them spies because you don't like
the fact that not everything you teach is as correct as you assert it
is. Taking a document out of a priests office is a despicable act,
except if it proves that the priest is committing a crime. I didn't
say that it was legal, I said it wasn't necessarilly morally wrong.
>
> In a criminal case, even if the police did it in the USA, the defense
> would make a motion to suppress any evidence illegally obtained in the
> case and it would become inadmissible evidence in court; i.e. that is
> known as the "exclusionary rule." CHolte does not know what the h-e-
l-l he's talking about! Next case!? LOL.
Again, we ain't talking about courts or police are we? One person who
was funnelling such information was recently tried in Japan, I doubt he
felt he did one thing morally wrong! Why would priests working for the
High Priest feel that way? Why would they be willing to risk going to
jail? For the Monetary Reward? That doesn't do one much good from a
jail cell. No, IMHO these people are acting because they can plainly
see that there is something rotten on the mountain.
>
> 2) He wrote & I quote, that "This does not make sense, as fragments
are often perfectly self referential in nature."
>
> I agree with the last part of his sentence in regard to a simple memo
or note, but the memo in question was presumed to be 51 pages long!
The whole memo would have to be inspected to know if that single page
was in fact self-explanatory or a part of a previous and/or later memo
page.
And as later came out in the priests opinion and Kawabe's apology, it
was a true copy of what Kawabe had written down and it was a summation
of some of the High Priests words. There may have been more context,
but you can see that Kawabe was plainly impressed at the time by the
evidence!
> Since a draft translation of it has been made & posted on this thread
by
> Mr. R. Thieme on 7/19/99, 2:52pm (CDT+5), my opinion is that that idea
> by CHolte still can not be determined as being either true or false.
>
Agreed.
> 3) He wrote & I quote, that "The Gakkai is gradually being led to an
> honest appraisal of the Dai-Gohonzon, which neither denies the [its]
> power, nor affirms that the Dai-Gohonzon is exactly as it is
represented [to be] by [the] Nichiren Shoshu."
>
> IMHO - 'The Gakkai is gradually being led to' HELL! There is no one
> qualified to make an 'honest appraisal of the Dai-Gohonzon' except the
> 67th High Priest of Nichiren Shoshu, Nikken Shonin! He is the only
> living Buddha who specifically possesses the heritage of the Law. But,
> CHolte is making an admission that the new-age SGI/NSS -mess- CULT
> religion/organization is gradually changing the true teaching of the
> Nichiren Shoshu religion about its supreme object of worship. That is
> another reason why they are all SLANDERERS & TRAITORS who were
> EXCOMMUNICATED from the Nichiren Shoshu religion in Nov. & Dec. 1997!
So you say. Which makes Nikken the third of the three powerful enemies
and you the first of them, since what you say is false. To claim that
Nikken is the only living Buddha denigrates both the Lotus Sutra and
the teachings of the Daishonin. There is no justification for it
except in altered documents, and now this memo makes me wonder about
even the Dai Gohonzon and how much it was altered or fraudulently
presented.
>
> 4) He wrote & I quote, that "We do need the facts, don't we?"
>
> Answer - Yes, we always do! Thanks to Mr.R.Thieme, we have his draft
> translations of the memo in question and the "official" NS response to
> it to debate/discuss instead of speculative theories about the
> contents of those two documents. This is what his quote was about
> to reply to a section from my posting.
Well we certainly are debating.
>
> 5) He wrote & I quote, that "Indeed that is an issue because the High
> Priest will not debate it with us either, will he?"
> Answer - HELL No! He won't debate anyone in the new-age SGI/NSS
> -mess- religion about anything concerning the Nichiren Shoshu
> religion, because those are CULT members of the most SLANDEROUS &
> TRAITOROUS organization in the history of true Buddhism! However,
> He will answer questions for the sincere NS believers who are His
> followers as NSH/NST members. Refer to my posting today in reply
> to JimCub on this thread for further explanation about that, please.
>
Well, we know you are expressing his official opinion as well as your
own. Since he is the living Buddha I guess his word is final with
you.
> 6) CHolte also wrote & I quote, that "The question has always been
> one of wisdom versus arrogance."
>
> IMHO - he's got that backwards. It's always been the ARROGANCE of the
> SGI organization versus the wisdom of the Nichiren Shoshu religion.
> So,it's always been No Contest! LOL.
Sure, right, of course.
>
> 7) He also wrote & I quote, that "Nichiren Shoshu taught us that
"Faith Is Reason."
>
> Answer - No, they did NOT! That maxim or motto wasn't even taught by
> SGI. That is a figment of CHolte's warped mind that derives the
> phrase from the old maxim/motto that said, "Buddhism equals reason"
> or Buddhism is reason." Either way, he obviously flunked it!
Well thanks for the correction. I guess your next statement is
something to the effect of "Dumbass"...
>
> 8) Re. CHolte's comment about me having a "special regard for
> Junior", referring to Rev. S. Kawabe, he wrote & I quote, that
> "What is there to reverence [revere] in such a reverend?"
>
> Answer - obviously, he wouldn't understand it even if I tried to
explain it to his low lifed-conditioned dumb-ass, so I won't. For
anyone else, it is because he is a NS priest!
There it is. A man deserves some respect because he simply is a human
being. Beyond that one should respect peoples positions when they have
one, and respect any persons knowledge and wisdom for what it is. But
you are right, I do not understand this sort of faith that you now
practice. Buddhism is Reason, and a priest who "knows the heart of the
Lotus Sutra" is one who teaches Buddhism correctly. Because the
priests have sided with what is more and more looking like fraud, I
have trouble feeling any sort of reverence for them. I still have some
lingering respect, but that is going by the wayside with every further
revelation.
>
> 9) He also wrote & I quote, that "Mr. Osaki was "duckng the question".
> What was he supposed to say?"
>
> Answer - He was supposed to say - the truth! If he didn't know, which
> he obviously didn't and no one else does either, then he should have
> simply said, "I Don't Know." Instead, he made up a quick answer, a
> fairy tale, to appease the questioner & audience. I was there when it
> happened. It was his way of being humorous and giving encouragement
> at the same time. His motives were right, but his answer was wrong.
> No problem - it doesn't matter now.
Actually his answer was from the Lotus Sutra; Juryo Chapter. That
didn't hit me until last night.
>
> 10) Last, but not least, CHolte wrote & I quote, that " . . . It
refers to Dozen-bo, who was Nichiren's mentor, and who never embraced
His teachings."
>
> Regarding the Gosho,"On Flowers and Seeds," how does CHolte "know"
what JimCub3D "knows" about it? Refer to JimCub's own posting on this
thread about that, please. However, I will be fair to Mr.CHolte and
give him a "mini-Gosho" lecture, too! LOL.
>
> Reiterating my reply to JimCub about that, 1) Nichiren Daishonin was
> writing to post eulogize the deceased priest, Dozen-bo, to teach the
> recipients of the letter about 2) the master- disciple relationship,
and
> 3) repaying a debt of gratitude to one's master (mentor). In
actuality, He became Dozen-bo's master to enable him to attain
enlightenment posthumously. Peace! } : < { 0
>
The stoned eagle:> <<< Stone Eagle >>>
Definately:> Airborne in Cyberspace*
I'm not arguing with you about that!
--
<a href="http://dragon.lizardtech.com/>Gosho</a><BR>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/athens/ithaca/9011/">
More Information </a>
Operation D
>And here is my draft translation of the response from the Shumuin. Would
>welcome any corrections.
>
>Bureau of Religious Affairs
>
>July 9, 1999
>
>To All Believers:
>
>Regarding the Crazed Theories Put Forth By the Suspicious Document
>"Doumei Tsuushinn"
>
>
> The July 7 edition of that suspicious document "Doumei Tsuushin"
>contained an article slandering the Daigohonzon of the True Sanctuary.
>This article concurred with a variety of crazed theories and doubts
>concerning the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary that have been put forth by
>members of heretical faiths. Worse than this, the article used a memo of
>conversations that took place in 1978 between His Holiness The Lord Of
>The Law (who at the time was head of the Study Department) and the
>priest Jitoku Kawabe as the basis of its slander, by presenting the
>contents of the memo as statements of fact.
>
> His Holiness The Lord Of The Law has stated that there are major
>differences between the matters stated in the Kawabe memo and the actual
>content of the conversation.
>
> Whilst this conversation took place more than 20 years ago, and thus
>His Holiness does not remember all of his statements at that time, the
>conversation was in fact an explanation to Rev. Kawabe of various doubts
>that had been raised previously from outside of the sect concerning the
>Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary, including a court case at the time. This
>was an explanation that the High Priest made in his then position as
>head of the Study Department.
In all seriousness and putting aside partisan prejudices, does this explanation
seem at all unreasonable to ANYONE here ???
Paul
Patrick A. Patterson
>explanation
>seem at all unreasonable to ANYONE here ???
>
>Paul
Makes perfect sense to me. It hink that was even Craig's first theory.
--Patrick
Patte...@AOL.com
____________________________________________________
The three slogans of the Party:
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
WAR IS PEACE
Mr T
Yes, I couldn't resist that one...
Mr T
jimc...@aol.com (Jim Cub 3D) wrote:
> >"the conversation was in fact an explanation to Rev. Kawabe of various
> >doubts that had been raised previously **from outside of the sect**
> >concerning the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary, including a court case at
> >the time
>
> Does anyone know what "court case" this refers to?
> Jim
> Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
It wasn't when the SGI was suing for ownership of the Dai Gohonzon, was it?
ho...@paonline.com
(Reginald Carpenter) wrote:
>Good evening, everyone. Response to CHolte posting on 7/20/99, 7:51pm
>(CDT+5).
[snip]
And, be
>sure to tell us what time of the day or night it was, and what was
>everybody was eating or drinking there, too? And, how much was the tab.
>and who paid what on it? How much was the tip?
Dear Stoned Eagle:
Here's a Grammar Check:
1. Faulty parallelism--when making a list in English, all elements
must be the same, or acting as the same part of speech. In your case
you used a compound direct object, and the first direct object was a
noun clause; therefore, the next element should have been a noun
clause too. Instead. the next element YOU used was a question.
2. stringiness-- you strung together sentences-- two sentences-- using
the coordinating conjunction "and." That's a "no-no."
>
>1) Re. CHolte's 1st paragraph, he wrote that the "article", which is not
>in his posting, "slanders the Dai-Gohonzon of the [True] Sanctuary."
>
>Comment - right there in his first sentence, "Crazy Chris" wasn't even
>capable of copying the translation correctly, so how can he interpret
>it? Answer - The FOOL can't!
3. After "answer," the correct punctuation is a semi-colon.
>Then, he wrote that Rev. Abe "raised the various doubts of the various
>sects"; but where is Crazy Chris reading this from? I think the
>translation read differently: " . . . various doubts that had been
>raised previously from outside the sect," is not what he wrote to quote.
>That's two LIES, not errors, Crazy Christ-opher!
>Then, CHolte claims that " . . . if the article is slandering the
>Dai-Gohonzon, then it is Rev. Abe slandering the Dai-Gohonzon . . . "
>Huh?! What a ludicrous leap in logic!? Does that d-a-m-n fool actually
>think that any rational person is going to believe that, except a member
>of the new-age SGI/NSS -mess- CULT of Personality worshippers'
>religion/organization?? I don't think so! Crazy Christ-opher just
>formulated a "Far-Fetched Hypothesis", which is a logical fallacy.
>
>First of the article was not written by either "Rev. Abe", the memo
>writer, or any NS priest. So, that knocks out the floor (base) of the
>illogical argument that the Crazy Chris is trying to stand his
>hypothesis upon. Secondly, the article is not in the translation or in
>his posting to even be able to read what it said, and the sketchy words
4. "to even be" is a split infinitive. C'mon Stoned Eagle.
>in the translation of the memo don't say exactly what it was that "Rev.
>Abe" spoke about when he alleged "slandered" the Dai-Gohonzon of the
>true Sanctuary by "raising various doubts of the various sects" in that
>meeting.
5. "When he alleged 'slandered' the Dai Gohonzon"......You needed to
use "alleged" as an adverb instead of a verb. How about "allegedly"?
Whew! Lost in Space can make mistakes aplenty when he wants too!
>Therefore, the unknown statements in the "article" and the unknown
>statements of "Rev. Abe" are NOT logically related; and are logically
>independent (unrelated). That is, they are except within the deranged
>mind of Crazy Christ-opher!
>
>And, therefore the remainder of his STUPID posting is moot for the above
>reasons; and because it's my dinnertime! There's no need to waste any
>more time on Crazy Christ-opher! War. } : < { 0
Cult Watcher International
sect** concerning the Dai Gohonzon of the Sanctuary, including a
court case at the time>>>
Jimbone says:
>Does anyone know what "court case" this refers to?
Jim<<<<<
>It wasn't when the SGI was suing for ownership of the Dai Gohonzon,
was it?
-- Kurt<<<
Actually I think there was a faction of the Shoshinkai that
had the DaiGohonzon tied up in a court case somewhere.
I believe the final rulings on some of those cases finally were made about
5 years ago. Perhaps Artie can shed some light on the issue..
Craig
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is
being very wasteful. How true that is." -- Vice President Al Gore
"I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have
was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with
those people." -- Vice President Al Gore
"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."
-- Vice President Al Gore
"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment.
It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."
-- Vice President Al Gore
Operation D
>>In all seriousness and putting aside partisan prejudices, does this
>>explanation
>>seem at all unreasonable to ANYONE here ???
>>
>>Paul
>
>Makes perfect sense to me. It hink that was even Craig's first theory.
>
>
>--Patrick
It was my immediate thought as well...and it's shameful for the Gaks to use it -
I guess they ran out of diaper stories.
I wonder if I've ever scribbled Bruce's arguments against the Daigohonzon on a
piece of paper - I hope the Gakkai aren't going through my rubbish bin.
mpc...@my-deja.com
ho...@paonline.com wrote:
> 5. "When he alleged 'slandered' the Dai Gohonzon"......You needed to
> use "alleged" as an adverb instead of a verb. How about "allegedly"?
> Whew! Lost in Space can make mistakes aplenty when he wants too!
Of course, Tricky Dicky, you meant to say, "when he wants also"? I am
sure you cringed when you read it again after posting it.
See, even you can make a mistake. I vote that everyone here stop this
bullshit (including me!).
Typos and grammatical mistakes is not what we are debating here.
Cody in Spain
Jim Cub 3D
> Jim<<<<<
>
>>It wasn't when the SGI was suing for ownership of the Dai Gohonzon,
>was it?
>-- Kurt<<<
>
>Actually I think there was a faction of the Shoshinkai that
>had the DaiGohonzon tied up in a court case somewhere.
>I believe the final rulings on some of those cases finally were made about
>5 years ago. Perhaps Artie can shed some light on the issue..
>
Don't know if he was Shoshinkai (they didn't exist in 1978, did they?
Formally?), but a man named Matsumoto was claiming the Dai Gohonzon was fake,
therefore the Sho Hondo a fraud, and he wanted his donation back. As (I think
it was) Richard mentioned, the court wouldn't rule on what is essentially a
religious issue.
Jim
Visit <bekkoame.or.jp/~bone>
Cody
Cody escribió en el mensaje de noticias > Typos and grammatical mistakes is
not what we are debating here.
Oops, I meant to say, "Typos and grammatical mistakes ARE not what we are
Richard Thieme
have it, but someone would have to pay me a lot of money to translate
it, and in any event the decision itself is not relevant to what we are
discussing here. The evidence was probably pretty interesting of course,
if anyone really wants to go poking around in the court records. The Sho
Hondo part of it also is a little interesting, and if they had pushed a
little harder on that angle, they might have had a case, i.e., the
priests eventually said that this was not the final true Honmon No
Kaidan, but was only a de facto one because Kosen Rufu hadn't been
achieved. Well why didn't someone tell the members this before they
donated all that money??? That would have seemed to me to be an
interesting legal argument (sort of constructive fraud). I have no idea
how the court would have ruled on this in the late 70's of course, since
court decisions change over time.
Anyway enough ruminating and back to work.
Regards,
Richard Thieme
Reginald Carpenter
5:07am (CDT+5). Thanks very much for your response, sir.
1) Re. the dates, it makes no difference to me if it was wrong, and
there is no need for you to feel embarrassed about being honest to
reveal a simple mistake like that. It only adds to your credibility &
objectivity with me, sir! JimCub only got lucky and made an inquiry
about an inconsequential matter. I saw what he saw and didn't bring it
up. BTW - did he ask why you didn't translate the exact time(s) on the
memo page, too? LOL. Forget About It!
2) Re. the typo, "Imaoki" is "Imaoka." Same as above, it makes no
difference to me. "I'm-a-ok-a" with that, too! "Thatsa lotsa good work
you did translate, fella!" LOL.
3) Re. "Kotokuji", I guessed wrong, and divided the word in the wrong
place the way it seemed to me to be, as identifying a person speaking,
not as a place. I think that you are correct that it should be
interpreted as "Kotoku-ji", the apparent name of a Nichiren Shoshu
Temple in Japan.
Apparently, that was the memo/note writer's shorthand to probably refer
to the chief priest assigned to that temple who allegedly made an offer
to Mr. Imaoka to induce him to leave the SGI, and join the NS as a
member of that temple, Kotoku-ji, and request a Joju-Gohonzon. Since a
Joju-Gohonzon request has to be approved by the Head Temple, Taiseki-ji,
possibly the memo/note writer was notified or received word of it,
because it violated NS policy at that time in its' relationship with
SGI. Apparently, Mr. Imaoka or someone else must have telephoned the
memo/note writer about it. The alleged statement by a local NS priest
became a problem matter for the Head Temple.
4) "Ikedamachi" is either a street, or jargon he was using as shorthand
again to write his memo or note about it. It is supposed to be a
Japanese custom, especially among older people, to refer to a person by
their name and address/street or local area to identify them, just as it
used to be their custom to refer to a person by their name and local
village in older times; ie. Lord Ueno was the name referred to Nanjo
Tokimitsu as the lord of Ueno village. Old customs don't die - they
just get modified! When I vist in Japan, I might be known as "Stone
Eagle of Shin-Yokohama" from the hotel or train station I'm using. LOL.
5) Re. "Kitayama", maybe here is where I can answer your question
definitively to repay you for your kindness to translate this for
everyone. Per a NST priest who explained this to me before you made your
translations, "Kitayama" is Kitayama Honmon-ji. It is a non-Nichiren
Shoshu temple where the Gohonzon inscribed for Nichizen was stored there
for centuries until it was acquired by the Nichiren Shoshu. Here is a
little history about it to answer your question:
"Kitayama Hommon-ji temple was originally a seminary called Omosu which
Nikko Shonin established, but in 1941, it became affiliated with Kuon-ji
temple on Mt. Minobu." [reference: A Dictionary of Buddhist Terms &
Concepts, NSIC, 1st edition, page #307]
6) Lastly, we agree that an innuendo was made improperly from the NS
Bureau of Religious Affairs announcement from which you drafted your
translation. Thanks again for your assistance, honesty and impartiality
with this matter. Peace! } : < { 0