ICS is rotting down...
T. M. Cuffel
Richard "red" Nash <na...@visus.com> wrote:
>The problem is three things. Control, Control, and ..... Control. Darooha and
>his croneys are unwilling to give up control. The code should be released to
^^^^^^
>the public domain so that alternate servers can be set up, perhaps for more
>serious chess players.
Should? Why? While I'll be the first to admit the cheap tricks some of the
admins have been playing are immature at best, the fact of the matter is that
the code is the result of Darooha's creative effort, and belongs to him.
Maybe he is on some power trip, getting his kicks. Maybe it would be best
for Internet chess if he shared his code. It's his ball, and if you don't
think he plays nice, get your own.
--
T. M. Cuffel "So do you have any experience watching children?"
"Only from my car."
-Some TV show
Ghica
In article <1994Feb4.1...@visus.com>, na...@visus.com (Richard "red" Nash) writes:
|> The problem is three things. Control, Control, and ..... Control. Darooha and
|> serious chess players.
|>
Yeah, and the USCF should franchise itself so that one place shouldnt
have to process ratings. Why do u think that hasnt happened yet? ;-)
|> Darooha, You can't make money with this, give it up.
|>
|> Rich
The very fact that this thought has crossed your mind means that it is
possible, if so desired.
Let the first current ICS player that would rather have 20 versions of
servers running everywhere, with different ratings depending on where u
log in, step forward.... I'm waiting!
IMHO, people that use the "net" have been spoiled by thinking everything
should be free. If you want that, go the GNU foundation and say "I WANT A CHESS SERVER" and see how far u get.
If you don't get too far, write one yourself.
btw, I tried one of those "other" chess servers that someone was trying
to write. I logged in, started playing and casually asked "how does one
resign?" (not that I was losing! ;-)) after about 20 seconds of silence,
the "admin" said "oh... I guess we didnt think of that...".
;-)
I applaud darooha and all the other developers for creating
something which 1) works better than some commercial software 2) is fun
to use. 3) is not out of control.
Oh, and if you don't like it.... DONT USE IT!!!!!!!!
-rg
Pizza
I don't understand all of these things... Many articles are shouting for a
free ICS, but the ICS is free now, isn't it? Has any of you been charged? Or
the 'free' here has any special meanings?
Really difficult for a Martian to understand...
Edward Lowther (A. Fleck)
>Step 1: Login to ICS
>Step 2: set shout 0
>Step 3: match xxx n m
>
>This works for me.
>
>To Seggev: we know each other, and you know I respect you. My advice is this:
...(advice given) etc... <
Although I for one treat ICS as one big coffeehouse, I try to motivate
meself to use these steps: I know I should, and for long stretches I do...
until someone annoys/tells/channel-tells etc me someting. Unlike many
"serious" chessers, I don't clam up at this point and log right out, I think
this is rude.
Advice if you must shout, though, don't be playing a game at the same time!
This kind of behavior doubles the stupidity of the action. And you will lose
more, of course.
** singing ** i.e. shouting lyrics. My favorites are usually the Beatles, and
in fact don't mind hearing or remembering it when playing. Silence may be
golden, but gold is cold and empty. Mozart (makes you smarter!) would be
a more common choice of chess-mood music.
Hard/Metal rock must be for the fishy class D, cheapo player. You can't have
a long term plan with that stuff! Can you?
Offbeat play comes from Cajun Zaidako (sp?) or Polkas. I have tried. :)
E.L * Lowlander on ICS, EICS, etc. *
NATIONAL SEMICONDUCTOR, (408)721-5000
I don't see anything wrong with the way ICS is working. Darooha and co. have
done an excellent job, it is by far the best game server I have played on (and
this includes Bridge, Backgammon, Othello, etc.) If they feel that in order to
maintain the system, they need to charge an membership fee, I wouldn't mind
I don't understand why all the complains.
Thanks darooha and company!
SM
Michael Moore
Before I start, let me first state that I acknowledge that
everything the ICS maintainers have done has been within their rights.
Further, I acknowledge the tremendous amount of time and effort they
have put into the chess server. They have brought a level of respect
and officialness to ICS which it had previously lacked.
> I don't see anything wrong with the way ICS is working. Darooha and co. have
>done an excellent job, it is by far the best game server I have played on (and
>this includes Bridge, Backgammon, Othello, etc.) If they feel that in order to
>maintain the system, they need to charge an membership fee, I wouldn't mind
>I don't understand why all the complains.
I complain because it violates the original spirit ICS was
made in. I developed it in the hopes others would take it and make
it into a solid, dependable chess server. This has happened. What
I didn't bother to consider at the time I wrote it was that those who
developed the code would not feel compelled to return it to
the public domain. Up until the time that Drooha and company received
the code, ICS had been maintained and improved by many different
people all freely donating their time and efforts.
But, regardless, there wasn't much I could have done to prevent
the situation. Some people feel it is a responsibility to keep things
like this in the public domain, and I am among them. But others don't feel
that way, and I there is nothing I can do about it.
I will, however, plead with the ICS maintainers to at least
allow those wishing to develop servers for other games to use the
current ICS sources as a starting point. Retain your chokehold on
chess if you must, but please allow others to benefit as you
yourselves benefitted from the original ICS.
If this is already the case, then I am glad. If not,
I am extremely saddened, but as life has taught me well, that changes
little.
Sincerely,
-Michael Moore
(Original ICS author)
--
Michael D. Moore OSU Student Programmer 3
Office : 308 Hitchcock Office Phone : 292-7345
Home : 1105 Harrison House Home Phone : 471-1937
Columbus, OH 43210
Michael Moore
>In article <2j882j$1...@duck.ftn.us-ny.citicorp.com> gh...@fig.citib.com (Ghica) writes:
>>
>>Let the first current ICS player that would rather have 20 versions of
>>servers running everywhere, with different ratings depending on where u
>>log in, step forward.... I'm waiting!
This is hardly the necessary state of affairs if the chess
server code were to be made public once again.
>>
>>If you don't get too far, write one yourself.
I did.
>>
>>btw, I tried one of those "other" chess servers that someone was trying
>>to write. I logged in, started playing and casually asked "how does one
>>resign?" (not that I was losing! ;-)) after about 20 seconds of silence,
>>the "admin" said "oh... I guess we didnt think of that...".
As if ICS wasn't this way when I first began it? Do you think
I would have BOTHERED to finish the initial version if people like
you had said things like the above?
>>
>>I applaud darooha and all the other developers for creating
>>something which 1) works better than some commercial software 2) is fun
>>to use. 3) is not out of control.
>>
Out of control? What makes you think releasing the software
would suddenly cause 20 ICS servers to pop up? Everyone is used to
the current ICS server, people want to play there, and they've got
a lot of games logged at the site. Why would they hop over to another
UNLESS they were dissatisfied with the current server? And if they
are dissatisfied, then they SHOULD go elsewhere! But right now there
is nowhere else to go.
I'm getting strong echoes of totalitarianism here.
-Michael
Sam E. Trenholme
> I complain because it violates the original spirit ICS was
>made in. I developed it in the hopes others would take it and make
>it into a solid, dependable chess server. This has happened. What
>I didn't bother to consider at the time I wrote it was that those who
>developed the code would not feel compelled to return it to
>the public domain. Up until the time that Drooha and company received
>the code, ICS had been maintained and improved by many different
>people all freely donating their time and efforts.
> -Michael Moore
> (Original ICS author)
Michael, I applaud you for your spirit and generosity in being free with the
ICS code. I am also disgusted and saddened by Darhooa's hozing of the ICS
code for himself. I wrote in a previous post that someone might want to
look at a prototype mud server/talk program and make it an alternate ICS
server. However, realizing that you wrote a good part of the ICS code before
Darhooa hogged it, I was wondering if you could make the pre-Darhooa ICS
code freely available, with a GNU copyright to stop another Darhooing-hog
of the code, and make it available via FTP, or mail it to me, and I'll
try to make it available via FTP. thankx,
Sam Trenholme
s...@soda.berkeley.edu
Michael Moore
>
>Darhooa hogged it, I was wondering if you could make the pre-Darhooa ICS
>code freely available, with a GNU copyright to stop another Darhooing-hog
>of the code, and make it available via FTP, or mail it to me, and I'll
>try to make it available via FTP. thankx,
I had thought the original server code WAS available? Richard
Nash was supposed to be the keeper of the code. Did something happen
to cause him to lose the sources?
The source I have is just the compilation package he put
together for me about a year and a half ago. It should work fine,
but I haven't looked at it so I don't know exactly what time frame
the server is from. I would guess about June of 1992. Perhaps Richard has
a more recent version of the code?
I'll include the GNU public license, since people seem to think
it will be helpfull. You'll find the code on archive.cis.ohio-state.edu
in /pub/ics. Please read the developer's note I'll place there to get
an idea of where to begin if you're thinking of improving the server.
Sincerely,
-Michael Moore
Alain Picard
zou> I don't understand all of these things... Many articles are
zou> shouting for a free ICS, but the ICS is free now, isn't it? Has
zou> any of you been charged?
zou> Or the 'free' here has any special
zou> meanings? Really difficult for a Martian to understand...
Yes. "Free" software, in the GNU sense, means free to be copied,
modified and redistributed. The ICS source code is not available,
hence the server is not "free".
--ap on ICS
--
|------------------------------------//----------------------|
|alain....@astro.estec.esa.nl // Linux: the choice |
|ESTEC // of a GNU generation |
|---------------------------------//-------------------------|
Michael Browne
>... with a GNU copyright to stop another Darhooing-hog
> of the code ...
Guess again. As far as I can tell, the GNU copyright requires you to
distribute source code for any binary that you distribute. But there
is no requirement to distribute binaries with your modifications. So
if I had heavily modified a GNU ICS server, I could open for business
and as long as I kept the binaries as well as the source, I think I'm
fine.
Of course I couldn't distribute user interface binaries, but that's
probably not a problem...
--Mike
Dr. Ganesan
Sorry for a rather long post. Those who have no interest in ICS should
skip to the next article...
I'm glad to hear a response from Michael Moore. Some of us remember an ICS
where there were no admins, and aries' [Mark Ginsburg] statistics included
made up e-mail addresses for people like Jan Timman and Miguel Najdorf, making
some wonder who they were really playing...
Today, ICS has over 1000 registered players and I suspect it would have been
equally successful with Michael's imperfect code [Where else can you play
against such varied opposition for free and have your moves automatically
recorded?]. Nevertheless, Daniel Sleator has undoubtedly made many important
changes that have added to ICS' popularity. If he feels the code is now his,
that is his right. Remember, he is not getting paid for all the effort he put
into it.
On the flip side, some of Sleator's other changes I consider to be cosmetic at
best. For example, do we need so many ways of talking to other players? All
too often, ICS degenerates into IRC. Have any of you also tried to explain all
the commands to a complete newcomer? ICS is also a victim of its own success.
Perhaps the percentage of players who indulge in obnoxious behaviour has
remained the same, but their numbers are far greater now.
Finally, a few comments on Seggev's post that started the whole discussion. It
seems to me that his allegations are pretty serious. Sleator may think that
changing a player's signature or making certain moves illegal is a harmless
practical joke. Most of us, I think, would be pretty annoyed if it happened to
us. An admin aborting a game when is about to lose also strikes me as childish
and irresponsible. The same admin also aborted a game of mine without any
warning once. His explanation - my opponent had called him a homo! Maybe an
admin can tell us what real functions they perform all day on ICS...As for
making money out of ICS, I'm sure there are better ways of doing so than
charging a year's worth of Informants for watching "live" a low Category
tournament. Teachers like Kaidanov, for example, give lessons over the
telephone. Would they be interested in providing lessons for a fee via ICS?
Meanwhile, lag, the biggest problem with ICS today, remains insoluble.