Speaking of Usenet Abuse by Cotse users

NJ DXer

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Aug 8, 2003, 12:15:50 AM8/8/03

to

I wonder if Mr. Gielda would consider this abuse.

There hes been an ongoing problem for the last couple of weeks in the groups
rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.shortwave & rec.radio.amateur.misc where a
Cotse user has been posting off-topic politically motivated articles for the
sole purpose of disrupting the groups.

Can we kill file this abuser? Sure we can, but with the abuser nym shifting
on an almost daily basis or impersonating the regulars in the groups it gets
kind of hard and frankly should not be nessecary if admin's would not let
this type of nonsense to continue.

Here's the message ID's of each off-topic post that I can dig up that have
come from Cotse in the last couple of weeks. As you will see this is not
only "one post" and the contents of any of these posts are not within the
guidelines of the charters that were made for these groups.

cWV2ZXJ5.fddb022a46f...@1059911480.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.d381a8f79a5...@1059911372.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.3424493f42e...@1059911178.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.cf090d72295...@1059911097.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.4e3808b4659...@1059910985.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.827f78c3999...@1059910899.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.bafa55db9fd...@1059910797.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.032c81a9d7d...@1059910672.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.b3b37171b07...@1059823982.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.c27df33cfd2...@1059823816.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.00e0e84bdca...@1059823760.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.437cc4e6777...@1059823659.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.2bde52428f1...@1059823583.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.f7eb7c43b0c...@1059823358.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.ffc48330ffb...@1059737786.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.86c30b8e67e...@1059737745.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.ea943ce2e0f...@1059737694.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.a7c6a2dafc9...@1059737629.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.5ef0ecd6920...@1059737580.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.2f0818010e2...@1059737539.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.9cbed55a7dc...@1059644123.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.4313249af58...@1059644075.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.1afe5014258...@1059644037.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.df05e6024d2...@1059643966.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.2965c5eaf03...@1059643898.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.08cc99cbb90...@1059643847.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.56b270ee31e...@1059562127.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.ccaa04ea955...@1059562021.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.431a36ea337...@1059561856.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.48c78cbf39e...@1059561752.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.bd2cfb48538...@1059561688.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.f5313976d80...@1059010754.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.51222e36004...@1059010677.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.5b764ce8fdf...@1059010614.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.41c081ab700...@1059010544.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.2a601c61a4c...@1059010488.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.5b8e61572e8...@1059010271.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.cb62486a79e...@1058927899.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.720dc816867...@1058927573.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.ad4d29e4af4...@1058927522.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.212f2cd28ba...@1058927451.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.8a8798c9bac...@1058927359.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.94ce56deb7d...@1058927273.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.89d0ebe7969...@1058836964.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.29a7f8774ae...@1058836906.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.66c714a7ed5...@1058836824.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.f0d8c2d3fd1...@1058836767.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.980fe8ccddb...@1058836715.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.185a0207bec...@1058836598.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.5a77fd55832...@1058091760.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.d63b8838f12...@1058091669.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.8a18a5f42ba...@1058091518.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.3251a50fcc2...@1058091374.cotse.net
cWV2ZXJ5.6252d559540...@1058091262.cotse.net

NJ DXer

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Aug 8, 2003, 12:34:11 AM8/8/03

to

Pardon me. I messed the list up.. Clicking on the message-ID's will now
produce the correct results.

Rolly The Pervert

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Aug 8, 2003, 12:47:33 AM8/8/03

to

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:15:50 -0400, "NJ DXer" <NJ_...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>I wonder if Mr. Gielda would consider this abuse.
>
>There hes been an ongoing problem for the last couple of weeks in the groups
>rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.shortwave & rec.radio.amateur.misc where a
>Cotse user has been posting off-topic politically motivated articles for the
>sole purpose of disrupting the groups.
>

It's called a troll. Ignore it

>Can we kill file this abuser? Sure we can, but with the abuser nym shifting

Than whats your problem

>on an almost daily basis or impersonating the regulars in the groups it gets
>kind of hard and frankly should not be nessecary if admin's would not let
>this type of nonsense to continue.

Wrong, you and only you get to be your own usenet censor. Consider it
a priveledge.

Get Nfilter, it's free, and will make killfiling him easy, as you'll
be able to plonk anything from cotse with ease.

Or you could just not open articles from the guy.

>
>Here's the message ID's of each off-topic post that I can dig up that have
>come from Cotse in the last couple of weeks. As you will see this is not
>only "one post" and the contents of any of these posts are not within the
>guidelines of the charters that were made for these groups.

The topic police were laid off last year. Sorry.

Now stop it before I come troll you too.

LeBaton

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Aug 8, 2003, 2:15:52 AM8/8/03

to

"NJ DXer" <NJ_...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:iMSdnVChLu5...@comcast.com...

> I wonder if Mr. Gielda would consider this abuse.
>
> There hes been an ongoing problem for the last couple of weeks in the
groups
> rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.shortwave & rec.radio.amateur.misc where a
> Cotse user has been posting off-topic politically motivated articles for
the
> sole purpose of disrupting the groups.
>
> Can we kill file this abuser? Sure we can, but with the abuser nym
shifting
> on an almost daily basis or impersonating the regulars in the groups it
gets
> kind of hard and frankly should not be nessecary if admin's would not let
> this type of nonsense to continue.
>
> Here's the message ID's of each off-topic post that I can dig up that have
> come from Cotse in the last couple of weeks. As you will see this is not
> only "one post" and the contents of any of these posts are not within the
> guidelines of the charters that were made for these groups.

I believe the COTSE TOS states something about nym shifting. Has anyone
complained to them about it and what was the response?

Stephen K. Gielda

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Aug 8, 2003, 4:07:52 AM8/8/03

to

In article <iMSdnVChLu5...@comcast.com>, NJ_...@comcast.net
says...

> I wonder if Mr. Gielda would consider this abuse.
>

Yes we do consider this abuse and warned this user about a week ago, if
this user is continuing beyond that warning, this account is history.
I've asked my abuse desk to investigate if the user continued beyond the
warning.

/steve
--
6 cyls, 6 carbs, 6 pipes, wifi, Internet access, the open road is my
office... http://www.cotse.net/users/steve/myoffice.jpg

No one gives you more control over your e-mail than we do!
http://www.cotse.net/servicedetails.html

Stephen K. Gielda

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Aug 8, 2003, 4:32:54 AM8/8/03

to

In article <8ma6jvg72nsn48vlj...@4ax.com>,
to...@databasix.com says...

> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:15:50 -0400, "NJ DXer" <NJ_...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I wonder if Mr. Gielda would consider this abuse.
> >
> >There hes been an ongoing problem for the last couple of weeks in the groups
> >rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.shortwave & rec.radio.amateur.misc where a
> >Cotse user has been posting off-topic politically motivated articles for the
> >sole purpose of disrupting the groups.
> >
>
> It's called a troll. Ignore it
>

Actually this one is beyond a troll. Excessive morphing and posting
substantively identical articles. Granted each one is a news story, but
the articles contain only text from news stories and if the user wants
that posted he should post it as links all in a single post rather than
as 20 separate posts each just containing a news story. It's a slightly
gray issue of BI, but we decided that it was abusive if continued and
because it is gray warned our user first.

Rolly The Pervert

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Aug 8, 2003, 11:25:50 AM8/8/03

to

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:32:54 -0400, Stephen K. Gielda
<st...@No-Spam-packetderm.com> wrote:

>In article <8ma6jvg72nsn48vlj...@4ax.com>,
>to...@databasix.com says...
>> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:15:50 -0400, "NJ DXer" <NJ_...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I wonder if Mr. Gielda would consider this abuse.
>> >
>> >There hes been an ongoing problem for the last couple of weeks in the groups
>> >rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.shortwave & rec.radio.amateur.misc where a
>> >Cotse user has been posting off-topic politically motivated articles for the
>> >sole purpose of disrupting the groups.
>> >
>>
>> It's called a troll. Ignore it
>>
>
>Actually this one is beyond a troll. Excessive morphing and posting
>substantively identical articles. Granted each one is a news story, but
>the articles contain only text from news stories and if the user wants
>that posted he should post it as links all in a single post rather than
>as 20 separate posts each just containing a news story. It's a slightly
>gray issue of BI, but we decided that it was abusive if continued and
>because it is gray warned our user first.
>
>/steve

I should have read the group. Mostly when people start whining like
that, it's BS :/// IMO

my bad

NJ DXer

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Aug 8, 2003, 2:01:01 PM8/8/03

to

"Stephen K. Gielda" <st...@No-Spam-packetderm.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.199d24618...@news.supernews.com...

> Yes we do consider this abuse and warned this user about a week ago, if
> this user is continuing beyond that warning, this account is history.
> I've asked my abuse desk to investigate if the user continued beyond the
> warning.
>
> /steve

Thank you Steve. As for the user in question, they have not posted from
Cotse again since 8/3/03, but have instead jumped to the Frell remailer as
well as Altopia. This too is an ongoing problem as before the posts started
coming from Cotse they were coming in a greater quantity from Altopia, plus
the Frell & Frog remailers.

Thanks again. I have to say that from reading a few posts I was lead to
believe that you were one of the admin's that just let people run wild on
usenet, but it seems you've stamped out the problem on your end at least for
now. I just hope the admin's at Frell and Altopia will see the posts coming
from their servers as they are. Abuse.

Choir Boy

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Aug 8, 2003, 10:19:46 AM8/8/03

to

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:32:54 -0400, Stephen K. Gielda <st...@No-Spam-packetderm.com> wrote:

>In article <8ma6jvg72nsn48vlj...@4ax.com>,
>to...@databasix.com says...
>> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:15:50 -0400, "NJ DXer" <NJ_...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I wonder if Mr. Gielda would consider this abuse.
>> >
>> >There hes been an ongoing problem for the last couple of weeks in the groups
>> >rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.shortwave & rec.radio.amateur.misc where a
>> >Cotse user has been posting off-topic politically motivated articles for the
>> >sole purpose of disrupting the groups.
>> >
>>
>> It's called a troll. Ignore it
>>
>
>Actually this one is beyond a troll. Excessive morphing and posting
>substantively identical articles. Granted each one is a news story, but
>the articles contain only text from news stories and if the user wants
>that posted he should post it as links all in a single post rather than
>as 20 separate posts each just containing a news story. It's a slightly
>gray issue of BI, but we decided that it was abusive if continued and
>because it is gray warned our user first.
>
>/steve

Here is a sampling of posts from February 14th of this year from NJ DXer the " VERY POLITE" person who started this thread posting from 68.46.52.38.
There are several others but I didn't want to bore you. He was at the time calling himself Arctic Cat and now complains here and in emails to everyone
who will listen about the same thing he himself does. He's a troll who does this because he disagrees with the subject matter. Check the NNTP Posting
host on any one of them to verify it is the same person who started this thread.

These are some of the morphs he has gone through over the years. Doing a google on any one of these email addresses will show him to be a rude,
antagonistic, belittling and obnoxious person.

If you look at the email addresses you have gotten complaints from you will probably find that he has used some of them to complain multiple times.

NJ DXer JK_...@comcast.net
Kills Trolls Dead yhoog...@yahoo.com
Sidewinder swi...@yahoo.com
CrazyTaxi JerseyO...@yahoo.com
Killa T kill...@yahoo.com
Rain Maker Agent...@IsATroll.com
Rain Maker noi...@thinkso.com
The Moron List (x...@x.net)
RedXIII (x...@x.com)
Arctic Cat (Arct...@comcast.net)
ArcticCat (arct...@NOSPAMcomcast.net)
Roselles is a Moron (blackdi...@yahoo.com)
Black Diamond (blackdi...@yahoo.com)
l33tN3w$P0$t3r (3y3H...@J00rB0x0r.com)
Loony Skip Rooney (lo...@unclefloyd.com)
100% Chest Pounding American (gimme...@yahoo.com)
HaHa (emul...@comcast.net)
Fuck The Middle East (w3_w1ll_k1ll_j00...@yahoo.com)
DemocRAT Poison (DemocRA...@yahoo.com)
Speak No Evil (bbb...@hotmail.com)
Sidewinder (izom...@yahoo.com)
I Zombie (IZom...@yahoo.com)
Democ 'Rat Poison (izom...@yahoo.com)
$Democ$ 'Rat Poison (izom...@yahoo.com)
Commanche (izom...@yahoo.com)
Windows for Atari 2600 (Bill_Gates@Is_My_Bitch.com)

This is a classic sampling of his arrogance and rudeness while posting as RedXIII (x...@x.com) toward a father and son looking for help.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=2nSdnXlNKIKMoOCjXTWcqg%40comcast.com&rnum=6&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522andy%2Band%2Bbarry%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg

Here is another sampling of his current rudeness.

http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_umsgid=%3COiednc473N...@comcast.com%3E&lr=&as_scoring=d&hl=en

The first line of your TOS says. We protect our users privacy. We support Freedom of Speech.

If you protect a users privacy then what are you doing discussing it here?

Maybe you should revise the Freedom of Speech sentence to: We support Freedom of Speech most of the time.

You have been trolled Steve. Congratulations.

Choir Boy

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Aug 8, 2003, 10:20:29 AM8/8/03

to

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:07:52 -0400, Stephen K. Gielda <st...@No-Spam-packetderm.com> wrote:

>In article <iMSdnVChLu5...@comcast.com>, NJ_...@comcast.net
>says...
>> I wonder if Mr. Gielda would consider this abuse.
>>
>
>Yes we do consider this abuse and warned this user about a week ago, if
>this user is continuing beyond that warning, this account is history.
>I've asked my abuse desk to investigate if the user continued beyond the
>warning.
>
>/steve

Stephen K. Gielda

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Aug 9, 2003, 10:39:52 AM8/9/03

to

In article <3fc6b19f....@pita.alt.net>, tr...@be.told says...

> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:07:52 -0400, Stephen K. Gielda <st...@No-Spam-packetderm.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <iMSdnVChLu5...@comcast.com>, NJ_...@comcast.net
> >says...
> >> I wonder if Mr. Gielda would consider this abuse.
> >>
> >
> >Yes we do consider this abuse and warned this user about a week ago, if
> >this user is continuing beyond that warning, this account is history.
> >I've asked my abuse desk to investigate if the user continued beyond the
> >warning.
> >
> >/steve
>
>
> Here is a sampling of posts from February 14th of this year from NJ DXer the " VERY POLITE" person who started this thread posting from 68.46.52.38.
> There are several others but I didn't want to bore you. He was at the time calling himself Arctic Cat and now complains here and in emails to everyone
> who will listen about the same thing he himself does. He's a troll who does this because he disagrees with the subject matter. Check the NNTP Posting
> host on any one of them to verify it is the same person who started this thread.
>

I don't care who started the thread. I just care about the abuse
issues. The only issues of abuse involved the posting of substantively
identical messages going past BI 20 and possibly excessive morphing.
Beyond that I don't care who disrupts what, who trolls who, or anything
else. Just that the BI violation stop and the morphing be kept to a
minimum. As far as privacy is concerned, informing someone that our
user was warned for that behavior is not a violation of privacy.

Choir Boy

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Aug 9, 2003, 10:54:32 AM8/9/03

to

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:39:52 -0400, Stephen K. Gielda <st...@No-Spam-packetderm.com> wrote:

>In article <3fc6b19f....@pita.alt.net>, tr...@be.told says...
>> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:07:52 -0400, Stephen K. Gielda <st...@No-Spam-packetderm.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <iMSdnVChLu5...@comcast.com>, NJ_...@comcast.net
>> >says...
>> >> I wonder if Mr. Gielda would consider this abuse.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Yes we do consider this abuse and warned this user about a week ago, if
>> >this user is continuing beyond that warning, this account is history.
>> >I've asked my abuse desk to investigate if the user continued beyond the
>> >warning.
>> >
>> >/steve
>>
>>
>> Here is a sampling of posts from February 14th of this year from NJ DXer the " VERY POLITE" person who started this thread posting from 68.46.52.38.
>> There are several others but I didn't want to bore you. He was at the time calling himself Arctic Cat and now complains here and in emails to everyone
>> who will listen about the same thing he himself does. He's a troll who does this because he disagrees with the subject matter. Check the NNTP Posting
>> host on any one of them to verify it is the same person who started this thread.
>>
>
>I don't care who started the thread. I just care about the abuse
>issues. The only issues of abuse involved the posting of substantively
>identical messages going past BI 20 and possibly excessive morphing.
>Beyond that I don't care who disrupts what, who trolls who, or anything
>else. Just that the BI violation stop and the morphing be kept to a
>minimum. As far as privacy is concerned, informing someone that our
>user was warned for that behavior is not a violation of privacy.
>

What is the definition of privacy then?

>/steve

Stephen K. Gielda

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Aug 9, 2003, 11:25:40 AM8/9/03

to

In article <3fc91830....@pita.alt.net>, tr...@be.told says...

Don't violate our ToS.

Choir Boy

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Aug 9, 2003, 12:16:21 PM8/9/03

to

You mentioned yourself that it was a grey area and you made a judgement call. That was very gratuitious. You also stated that

"Yes we do consider this abuse and warned this user about a week ago, if
this user is continuing beyond that warning, this account is history.
I've asked my abuse desk to investigate if the user continued beyond the
warning.

/steve"

I respectfully ask you this Steve....

Is Violation of TOS warning without termination a reason to violate the privacy of one of your customers by discussing the current status of one of
your customers in a public forum with someone who you don't know from a hole in the ground and has nothing to do with the << Customer -> Usenet
Providor >> relationship?

Could you clear that up for me please because I don't understand. Privacy is privacy

I also wasn't clear on the going past BI 20 violation. I can't see how that was calculated. Could you give me an example?

Respectfully, thank you...

NJ DXer

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Aug 9, 2003, 2:42:17 PM8/9/03

to

"Choir Boy" <tr...@be.told> wrote in message
news:3fc6b19f....@pita.alt.net...

> Here is a sampling of posts from February 14th of this year from NJ DXer
the " VERY POLITE" person who started this thread posting from 68.46.52.38.
> There are several others but I didn't want to bore you. He was at the time
calling himself Arctic Cat and now complains here and in emails to everyone
> who will listen about the same thing he himself does. He's a troll who
does this because he disagrees with the subject matter. Check the NNTP
Posting
> host on any one of them to verify it is the same person who started this
thread.
>

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ArcticCat%40comcast.net&start=190&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&selm=DLCcndZBJJyhT9CjXTWcpw%40comcast.com&rnum=195

Same thing I do myself? I do my political posting in political groups.
alt.current-event.clinton.whitewater is a political group, not
rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.shortwave or rec.radio.amateur.misc.

>
> These are some of the morphs he has gone through over the years. Doing a
google on any one of these email addresses will show him to be a rude,
> antagonistic, belittling and obnoxious person.

What's Steve gonna do about that? He has no control over me or over Comcast
and I don't pay for his services. I have no need for his services because I
don't intend to be an asshole everyday of the year on usenet thinking I'm
going to get away with it because I laid money down on an anonymous account.
Abuse is abuse and you got busted by Cotse..

>
> If you look at the email addresses you have gotten complaints from you
will probably find that he has used some of them to complain multiple times.

Thing is I never once sent an email to Cotse about your abuse, but I did
foward many of your posts to news.admin.net-abuse.usenet. Besides, you don't
have many fans of your type in the rec.radio groups so please don't give me
all the credit.

>
> This is a classic sampling of his arrogance and rudeness > while posting
as RedXIII (x...@x.com) toward a father
> and son looking for help.

So what? I was having a bad day.

>
> Here is another sampling of his current rudeness.

Just got tired of your crap that's all.

>
>
> The first line of your TOS says. We protect our users privacy. We support
Freedom of Speech.
>
> If you protect a users privacy then what are you doing discussing it here?
>
> Maybe you should revise the Freedom of Speech sentence to: We support
Freedom of Speech most of the time.
>
>
> You have been trolled Steve. Congratulations.

Anonymity and Freedom of Speech doesn't not give you a license to
continually post off-topic political garbage to groups that aren't intended
for those types of discussions.

Take a long, hard look at this page
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/radio/personal-intro/index.html and you will see
that you were in fact in violation of the charters of each of these groups
and in violation of the Cotse TOS.

Steve has not been trolled. You abused the net and you have been rightfully
reprimanded. My advise would be to ask the man for your money back and stop
posting these types of article to the rec.radio.groups because it only goes
down hill for you from here.

Stephen K. Gielda

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Aug 9, 2003, 11:52:34 PM8/9/03

to

In article <ccednekTdq4...@comcast.com>, NJ_...@comcast.net
says...

>
> Anonymity and Freedom of Speech doesn't not give you a license to
> continually post off-topic political garbage to groups that aren't intended
> for those types of discussions.

Point: This has nothing to do with off topic, I don't care if our user
posts off topic continually, that is not abuse. Our user can continue
to do that. The point is only that so many posts containing nothing but
quoted text violated BI.

Choir Boy

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Aug 10, 2003, 3:22:12 AM8/10/03

to

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 23:52:34 -0400, Stephen K. Gielda <st...@No-Spam-packetderm.com> wrote:

>In article <ccednekTdq4...@comcast.com>, NJ_...@comcast.net
>says...
>>
>> Anonymity and Freedom of Speech doesn't not give you a license to
>> continually post off-topic political garbage to groups that aren't intended
>> for those types of discussions.
>
>
>Point: This has nothing to do with off topic, I don't care if our user
>posts off topic continually, that is not abuse. Our user can continue
>to do that. The point is only that so many posts containing nothing but
>quoted text violated BI.

Respectfully Steve...

How many posts is so many posts and over what period of time? Was there a flood of posts that I missed when searching the groups through altopia? It
looks to me like 5-7 individual and unique posts during a 24 hour period that was posted to 3 groups. What's that work out to roughly BI 12 +/-- ?
And you are also saying if the qouted text also contained an opinion by the sender then it would not be considered a violation of BI ?

Respectfully, Thank you.

>
>/steve