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NYT - Big cap problems for NYJ

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Jim Goldstick

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Feb 25, 2001, 8:34:21 AM2/25/01
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Jets Stuck With Bill for Free Agents From Parcells Era
By MIKE FREEMAN

Believe it or not, some general managers treat the salary cap as if it were
radioactive, avoiding it, completely leaving the job to someone else. But
Jets General Manager Terry Bradway has been extremely hands-on with all of
the team's recent cap moves, working closely with the team's cap guru, Mike
Tannenbaum, since replacing Bill Parcells.

The result has been a sense of urgency, leading to the Jets' brutal week of
player cuts to get under the $67.4 million salary cap mandated by the
National Football League. Five veterans were released in the purge,
including the popular linebacker Bryan Cox, with the team saving a total of
almost $10 million in cap room. And there are more painful decisions to
make.

But the Jets' salary cap issues run much deeper than player cuts and
reworked contracts. In fact, the recent trimmings were the equivalent of
putting a Band-Aid on a cut that needs stitches.

The Jets franchise, for the next few years, will be buried under mountains
of salary cap debt because of bad player investments made in the Parcells
era. And make no mistake, some of this will affect the Jets' caliber of play
for the next two to three years, according to several salary cap experts and
N.F.L. general managers.

That is because the Jets' cap problems may make it difficult, if not
impossible, for the team to consistently acquire and keep star free agents
in the near future. Recently, the Jets were $7.47 million over the cap,
though they should get under it by the Friday deadline.

"Not to be alarmist, but in terms of some of the contracts they signed their
players to, the Jets have done some of the worst deal making I've seen of
any team in the last four years," the salary cap expert Terry O'Neil said.
"And because of that, they are in deep trouble when it comes to the cap."

O'Neil is the former New Orleans executive who four years ago turned around
the Saints' terrible cap situation. He left professional football and
currently writes for the Web site RealTeam.com. O'Neil has studied the Jets'
problems and sees a difficult road ahead for the team, one far worse than is
generally known.

The problems stem largely from a gamble Parcells took when he joined the
franchise in 1997. What Parcells did was simple: he mortgaged the future for
a shot at the Super Bowl by taking a chance on aging players like Cox, tight
end Eric Green, safety Steve Atwater and others, signing them to excessive
deals and putting the franchise in a hole. If the Jets had won a Super Bowl,
the gamble would have paid off. But the championship never came. The bill
did, however, and now the Jets are paying it.

One team executive called the Jets' cap situation one of the five worst in
the league.

"There will not be much improvement for the Jets, if any, through free
agency for this upcoming season and maybe longer," O'Neil said. "If you're a
Jets fan, and you liked last year's team, then that's what you may get for a
while."

The Jets' predicament teaches a valuable lesson: building quickly with
older, expensive players, as the Jets did under Parcells, can pay dividends,
but it is extremely risky, and if it fails, the impending salary cap
ramifications can be disastrous.

The Jets certainly don't have the worst cap situation in the league; that
honor belongs to Jacksonville and Buffalo. And the Jets may be able to
afford a low-rent free agent or two in the next several years, like the
former Buffalo defensive lineman Ted Washington. The team could use the
draft to rebuild instead of free agency.

Bradway would have to reverse the Jets' trend of terrible drafts under
Parcells. In the team's three drafts from 1997 through 1999, the Jets
selected 22 players. Only eight became starters and none made the Pro Bowl.
By comparison, the Baltimore Ravens' drafts from 1996 to 1999 produced four
Pro Bowl players.

So the Jets have been stuck in a vicious circle. They have drafted poorly
and then are forced to dive into free agency to get players, which
subsequently ruins their cap situation.

How did the Jets find themselves in such a salary cap pit? O'Neil said the
Jets made a series of key salary cap-related contract blunders during
Parcells's reign.

. Vinny Testaverde's contract. Last week, the Jets restructured Testaverde's
contract a second time, reducing his cap number for 2001 from $7.67 million
to $477,000. That creates temporary cap room, but the team will eventually
take a massive cap hit once Testaverde retires or is released. O'Neil thinks
the Jets erred when they first signed Testaverde to a one-year contract
before the 1998 season. "They should have signed him to a minimum multiyear
deal instead of a one-year deal, just in case he got hot," O'Neil said.

And that is exactly what happened. Testaverde had a great season, and then
had the Jets in a headlock, forcing them to sign him to an exorbitant deal
so he would not become a free agent.

. Curtis Martin's contract. "It was always too rich," O'Neil said, "and they
have restructured it so many times, it's devastating." Martin was signed to
a six-year deal worth $6 million a year, far above market value. It is true
that the Jets made the deal that fat to try and prevent New England from
matching it, but now Martin's contract is strangling the team.

His cap number is $8.455 million, O'Neil said. A team could handle that
number if a younger, highly productive player was eating up that much cap
room, but Martin, though a great locker-room presence and an extremely tough
player, is clearly slowing. He had only one 100-yard game after Week 7 last
season, and in his last three contests he averaged only 2.15 yards a carry.

"So you have two players on the decline who are eating up large amounts of
cap space, and will continue to do so years down the road," O'Neil said.

. The love of linebackers. Parcells is a former linebacker coach, as was the
former coach Al Groh, so it is understandable if the two men were infatuated
with the position. But that love went to ridiculous proportions, O'Neil
said.

At one point last season, seven linebackers occupied $15 million in cap
room, an astounding 25 percent of the Jets' cap. It is highly unusual for a
position other than quarterback to occupy so much cap space. In fact, what
the Jets did with their linebackers may be a cap record.

. Ray Mickens, Green and Atwater. Green and Atwater were two of the biggest
signing busts of the Parcells era and they continue to haunt the team today,
mainly because they were signed to such excessive deals. This past season
Green's so-called dead money - the amount remaining on the cap after a
player is released or traded - counted $1.5 million against the cap and
Atwater's counted $1.2 million.

Perhaps the worst deal of the Parcells era may be the contract he gave
Mickens, a nickel back. This season Mickens, a nonstarter at a position that
is not crucial, has a cap number of $3.2 million, and it will be $5.7
million in 2002. For whatever reason, Parcells gave Mickens a guaranteed
$850,000 roster bonus due on March 15, which also counts against the cap.

"That is just bad spending, period," O'Neil said.

The Jets' recent history of bad deals becomes even more ugly when compared
with their local rivals, the Giants.

The fact that the Giants are in better salary cap shape than the Jets,
despite going to a Super Bowl, is a great achievement, O'Neil said, and a
tribute to their general manager, Ernie Accorsi.

"Ernie had his two deals that were excessive, those being Kerry Collins and
Michael Strahan," O'Neil said. "But over all he did one of the best jobs in
the league last year at managing the cap. That's because often Super Bowl
teams are way over the cap, but Ernie has kept things under control."

The Giants have done this despite a large amount of dead money on their
roster this year. According to O'Neil, the Giants this past season were
still paying former players from before Accorsi's reign. They include Scott
Gragg ($2.5 million), Brian Williams ($1.6 million), Robert Harris ($1.3
million), Tito Wooten ($1 million) and Gary Brown ($720,000), among others,
for a total of about $10 million in dead money, one of the highest numbers
ever. The normal amount of dead money a team incurs is about $3 million to
$4 million a year.

One of the things the Giants did to compensate was quietly restructure seven
veteran contracts, reduce the salaries of two other players, and give
defensive lineman Keith Hamilton a new deal, all done before the 2000 season
to ease the cap pain. Currently, the Giants are in excellent cap shape,
O'Neil said, sitting a comfortable $1.43 million under the cap.

"The salary cap drives you crazy, but you have to stay on top of it,"
Accorsi said. "Otherwise it can hurt your team."

That is something the Jets are now discovering.

salfino

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Feb 25, 2001, 9:53:06 AM2/25/01
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"Jim Goldstick" <jst...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:xR7m6.10418$Vj5.2...@news02.optonline.net...

> Jets Stuck With Bill for Free Agents From Parcells Era
> By MIKE FREEMAN
>
> The result has been a sense of urgency, leading to the Jets' brutal week
of
> player cuts to get under the $67.4 million salary cap mandated by the
> National Football League.

What was so brutal about it? None of those guys were under 30 or in the Jets
plans. Cox is never likely to bounce back fully from his broken leg. And
they don't need those linebackers, as O'Neil himself intimated, if they're
going to the 4-3.

> That is because the Jets' cap problems may make it difficult, if not
> impossible, for the team to consistently acquire and keep star free agents
> in the near future. Recently, the Jets were $7.47 million over the cap,
> though they should get under it by the Friday deadline.

Wait, you just said the Jets chopped $10 million in salary cap with those
five "brutal" cuts. So, they're ALREADY under the cap.


> "Not to be alarmist, but in terms of some of the contracts they signed
their
> players to, the Jets have done some of the worst deal making I've seen of
> any team in the last four years," the salary cap expert Terry O'Neil said.
> "And because of that, they are in deep trouble when it comes to the cap."

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. O'Neil always rips the Jets.


>
> O'Neil is the former New Orleans executive who four years ago turned
around
> the Saints' terrible cap situation.

Yeah, he did a great job with the Saints considering that was a least two
coaches ago.

What Parcells did was simple: he mortgaged the future for
> a shot at the Super Bowl by taking a chance on aging players like Cox,
tight
> end Eric Green, safety Steve Atwater and others, signing them to excessive
> deals and putting the franchise in a hole.

Wait, I thought the Cox cut was so brutal? Now you're saying we should never
have signed him. Green and Atwater are long since off the books.


> One team executive called the Jets' cap situation one of the five worst in
> the league.
>
> "There will not be much improvement for the Jets, if any, through free
> agency for this upcoming season and maybe longer," O'Neil said.

We just drafted four number ones. Two are already impact members of a front
seven and another is, according to most, very possibly a future star at QB.

> So the Jets have been stuck in a vicious circle. They have drafted poorly
> and then are forced to dive into free agency to get players, which
> subsequently ruins their cap situation.

The Jets had one of the best drafts ever last year, according to most
objective accounts. Fabini is a rock solid tackle as a fourth round pick.
Young was a seventh round pick. Thomas is a future all pro, if he's not one
already. They didn't have first round picks in two of those years.

> . Vinny Testaverde's contract.

I agree. But who says he would have signed a minimum multi-year deal.

Martin, though a great locker-room presence and an extremely tough
> player, is clearly slowing. He had only one 100-yard game after Week 7
last
> season, and in his last three contests he averaged only 2.15 yards a
carry.

That's simply not true. Martin is one of the top five backs in the league.
The Jets were a dink and dunk passing team last year with no speed on the
outside to keep the safeties from cheating up.

> At one point last season, seven linebackers occupied $15 million in cap
> room, an astounding 25 percent of the Jets' cap.

Well, now we got rid of those linebackes and you say it's so devastating to
the team. Do we need all those linebackers or not? Make up your mind.

> Perhaps the worst deal of the Parcells era may be the contract he gave
> Mickens, a nickel back.

Well, he'll be gone soon, too. Then you'll complain about what a brutal lost
we've been forced to endure.


> The fact that the Giants are in better salary cap shape than the Jets,
> despite going to a Super Bowl, is a great achievement, O'Neil said, and a
> tribute to their general manager, Ernie Accorsi.

Please! The Jets didn't lose a game to a team that won less than 9 games.
The Giants only beat one team, the Eagles, with a winning record. And the
Eagles only had a winning record because they played in the putrid NFC East.
If the Jets had the Giants schedule, they would have one 12 games and had
homefield, too.

User455673

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Feb 25, 2001, 10:12:33 AM2/25/01
to

The Jets are now approx. 10 million under the Cap right now. And the "purge"
the Jets had will probably result in at least a couple of cuts coming back to
the team. But this alarmist note isn't the reason why I scoff at this article.
It's coming...

>"Not to be alarmist, but in terms of some of the contracts they signed their
>players to, the Jets have done some of the worst deal making I've seen of
>any team in the last four years," the salary cap expert Terry O'Neil said.
>"And because of that, they are in deep trouble when it comes to the cap."
>
>O'Neil is the former New Orleans executive who four years ago turned around
>the Saints' terrible cap situation. He left professional football and
>currently writes for the Web site RealTeam.com. O'Neil has studied the Jets'
>problems and sees a difficult road ahead for the team, one far worse than is
>generally known.

Ah, here is the problem. The author uses Terry O'Neil, who wrote up a crappy
evaluation of the Jets Cap problems last August, and now is continuing his
gaga. Who knows, maybe PArcells snubbed him one day; but I don't see teams
beating O'Neil's door down to hire him as their capologist.

>
>The problems stem largely from a gamble Parcells took when he joined the
>franchise in 1997. What Parcells did was simple: he mortgaged the future for
>a shot at the Super Bowl by taking a chance on aging players like Cox, tight
>end Eric Green, safety Steve Atwater and others, signing them to excessive
>deals and putting the franchise in a hole. If the Jets had won a Super Bowl,
>the gamble would have paid off. But the championship never came. The bill
>did, however, and now the Jets are paying it.
>

If I'm not mistaken, the bill for all of those guys will be finished after this
year; what is he talking about?

*snip*

>The Jets certainly don't have the worst cap situation in the league; that
>honor belongs to Jacksonville and Buffalo. And the Jets may be able to
>afford a low-rent free agent or two in the next several years, like the
>former Buffalo defensive lineman Ted Washington. The team could use the
>draft to rebuild instead of free agency.
>

Ted Washington will be "low rent"?!?! LOL. Try telling that to the team that
will have to pay at least 5 million as a bonus for him next month.

>Bradway would have to reverse the Jets' trend of terrible drafts under
>Parcells. In the team's three drafts from 1997 through 1999, the Jets
>selected 22 players. Only eight became starters and none made the Pro Bowl.
>By comparison, the Baltimore Ravens' drafts from 1996 to 1999 produced four
>Pro Bowl players.
>

Comparing the Jets and Ravens drafts are inane, a Terry O'Neil-inspired bit of
"logic". Every one of those years I believe, the Ravens drafted in the top 10.
Starks and McAllister were taken with the 10th picks, Ogden and Boulware were
taken with the 4th.

The Jets drafted Keyshawn #1 overall in '96, Farrior with the 8th, and didn't
have any picks in the first round in either '98 or '99.

Yes, the Ravens did a great job with their high picks, but they also had more
of an opportunity to do so with two extra top ten picks. And correct me if I'm
wrong, but didn't Keyshawn go to the Pro Bowl?

I'm going to ignore the rest of this fish-wrapper, but suffice it to say, this
is one crappy expose on the Jets Cap situation.

david lee t.

Glenn Greenstein

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Feb 25, 2001, 10:34:26 AM2/25/01
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I think JDSall is using an allias here.
What a crock. The Jets drafted badly. They had no first round pick for 3 years.

Lennybrsco

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Feb 25, 2001, 11:06:08 AM2/25/01
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There are a lot of valid points in the Times article. You might not like the
source or what he says but it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Last year the Jets had a great draft if Pennington becomes a good QB and if one
of the pass rushers becomes dominant. Otherwise you gave up your best player
and one of the true impact WR's in the division for 2 cheaper players. You
should have a good draft when you have 4 first rounders.

To dispute the article's claims that the first 3 Parcells drafts were anything
but lousy is silly. Tuna left the Jets with a handful of useful players out of
30 from his first 3 efforts. That's not good and would place him in the lower
third of talent evaluators of college prospects. There were way too many
Terrys, Frosts, Booses and other clunkers thrown in and zero Pro-Bowlers.

User455673

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Feb 25, 2001, 11:34:14 AM2/25/01
to
>
>There are a lot of valid points in the Times article. You might not like the
>source or what he says but it doesn't >mean it isn't true.

No, the article was laoded with enough maure to supply a fertilizer company.

>
>Last year the Jets had a great draft if Pennington becomes a good QB and if
>one
>of the pass rushers becomes dominant. Otherwise you gave up your best player
>and one of the true impact WR's in the division for 2 cheaper players. You
>should have a good draft when you have 4 first rounders.
>

Well, the PAts had 6 extra high draft picks over a 3 year period, and they are
now the team with the least amount of talent in the division. Teams like the
Cards and Bengals routinely have picks in the top 10.

If Pennington is a talent, then the '00 draft will be Parcells lasting gift to
this franchise; it will be looked at as one of the great drafts of the past 10
years, since i fully expect Ellis and Abraham to be very good football players.

>To dispute the article's claims that the first 3 Parcells drafts were
>anything
>but lousy is silly. Tuna left the Jets with a handful of useful players out
>of
>30 from his first 3 efforts.

I'm not going to revisit this argument with you again Lenny, but let's just say
that with one first round pick over a 3-year period, Parcells helped use the
draft to rebuild the Jets OL into one of the better young OL's in the league.

While the picks might not be as glamourous as picking a top WR, having a solid
OL that can be counted on for years will ensure that Pennington won't get
killed when he takes over the reigns.


david lee t.

Lennybrsco

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Feb 25, 2001, 11:43:29 AM2/25/01
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Dave,

Your argument falls flat on a couple of counts. Your O-line is incomplete at
best as it hasn't proven it can run block at all yet despite having a very good
running back.

Parcells also had to overpay free agents to fill gaps he couldn't/wouldn't fill
through the draft.

This is the over-riding point of this article and perhaps its best and most
accurate one.

User455673

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Feb 25, 2001, 12:44:59 PM2/25/01
to
>
>Dave,
>
>Your argument falls flat on a couple of counts. Your O-line is incomplete at
>best as it hasn't proven it can run block at all yet despite having a very
>good
>running back.

They are one of the best pass-blocking OL's in the league, and are one of the
younger OL's in the league. As a whole , there aren't many OL's I would take
over this one; especially when you factor the age of the line.

>
>This is the over-riding point of this article and perhaps its best and most
>accurate one.
>

The article is filled with holes big enough that even Ray LEwis would have
trouble covering up for.


david lee t.

BobJensen08863

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Feb 25, 2001, 1:03:18 PM2/25/01
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>Subject: NYT - Big cap problems for NYJ
>From: "Jim Goldstick" jst...@optonline.net
>Date: 2/25/01 8:34 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <xR7m6.10418$Vj5.2...@news02.optonline.net>

>
>The problems stem largely from a gamble Parcells took when he joined the
>franchise in 1997. What Parcells did was simple: he mortgaged the future for
>a shot at the Super Bowl by taking a chance on aging players like Cox, tight
>end Eric Green, safety Steve Atwater and others, signing them to excessive
>deals and putting the franchise in a hole. If the Jets had won a Super Bowl,
>the gamble would have paid off. But the championship never came. The bill
>did, however, and now the Jets are paying it.
>
Some price.I would love to pay that price every year. Eric Green and Steve
Atwater count exactly ZERO against this years 2002 cap. Cox's is minimal and
will count ZERO against 2002's cap. That's the trouble with the routine
Parcells bashing that always comes from Mike Freemen, long on criticism,
woefully short on the facts.
Parcells never cared for Terry O'Neil abilities and one would suspect that
O'Neil is still pouting after he was left off the short list of potential GM's
that Parcells recommended to Woody Johnson.

Bob Jensen

Glenn Greenstein

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Feb 25, 2001, 1:45:21 PM2/25/01
to
Lennybrsco wrote:

> There are a lot of valid points in the Times article. You might not like the
> source or what he says but it doesn't mean it isn't true.
>
> Last year the Jets had a great draft if Pennington becomes a good QB and if one
> of the pass rushers becomes dominant. Otherwise you gave up your best player
> and one of the true impact WR's in the division for 2 cheaper players. You
> should have a good draft when you have 4 first rounders.

Lenny, what are you trying to say ? Before Abraham got hurt, he looked like a game
changer. His presence was surely felt at the end of games with key sacks and forced
fumbles. Ellis looked exceptionally strong at the end of the season finishing with
8 sacks. In a 3-4 where the DE mostly plays the run that's pretty good in the first
year and he's undersized. Pennington is still an unknown but I'd bet he'll be a
good QB. Becht also shows promise. Hopefully he'll be used more in the passing game
next season. I think this draft will go down in Jets history as the best ever.

>
>
> To dispute the article's claims that the first 3 Parcells drafts were anything
> but lousy is silly. Tuna left the Jets with a handful of useful players out of
> 30 from his first 3 efforts. That's not good and would place him in the lower
> third of talent evaluators of college prospects. There were way too many
> Terrys, Frosts, Booses and other clunkers thrown in and zero Pro-Bowlers.

There was also a Farrior who is a solid LB now that he's healthy and will start
next season, Ward who has made lots of big plays, Fabini who will be a cornerstone
of our OL, and Ferguson who'll hopefully return to form when he gets healthy, and
that was with one first round pick in 3 years.


salfino

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Feb 25, 2001, 3:00:58 PM2/25/01
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And the line is very cost-effective, cap-wise.

"User455673" <user4...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010225124459...@ng-mk1.aol.com...
> >
> >Dave,

salfino

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Feb 25, 2001, 3:28:33 PM2/25/01
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Who exactly did the Jets miss on in 1998? (see below) The Jets draft in 1999
was pretty solid when you consider that they didn't have a number 1 pick and
didn't make a selection at all until #57: they got Thomas and Young as
starters on the OL and Laverne and, expecially, Wiltz still may contribute.
As for 1997, not a lot of quality in leiu of Farrior. Plus the jury is still
out on JF. We'll see about him this year in the 4-3 for which he was drafted
to play. What DT should they have drafted on place of Terry? Looking at the
evidence, the Jets supposed draft day woes post Parcells are extremely
overstated.

1998:

26 56 Dorian Boose Jets DT Washington State
27 57 Cordell Taylor Jaguars DB Hampton
28 58 Jeremy Newberry 49ers C California
29 59 Mikhael Ricks Chargers WR Stephen F. Austin
30 60 Charlie Batch Lions QB Eastern Michigan
31 61 Eric Brown Broncos DB Mississippi State
3 1 62 Chuck Wiley Panthers DE LSU
2 63 Jon Ritchie Raiders RB Stanford
3 64 Olin Kreutz Bears C Washington
4 65 Leonard Little Rams DE Tennessee
5 66 Chris Conrad Steelers T Fresno State
6 67 Scott Frost Jets DB Nebraska
7 68 Robert Hicks Bills T Mississippi State
8 69 Skip Hicks Redskins RB UCLA
9 70 Brian Alford Giants WR Purdue
10 71 E.G. Green Colts WR Florida State
11 72 Jeremiah Trotter Eagles LB Stephen F. Austin
12 73 Mitch Marrow Panthers DE Pennsylvania
13 74 Jammi German Falcons WR Miami (FL)
14 75 Steve Foley Bengals LB N.E. Louisiana
15 76 Ahman Green Seahawks RB Nebraska
16 77 Dainon Sidney Oilers DB UAB
17 78 Mike Goff Bengals G Iowa
18 79 Brad Jackson Dolphins LB Cincinnati
19 80 Ramos McDonald Vikings DB New Mexico
20 81 Chris Floyd Patriots RB Michigan
21 82 Larry Shannon Dolphins WR East Carolina
22 83 Greg Spires Patriots DE Florida State
23 84 Jamie Duncan Buccaneers LB Tampa
24 85 Allen Rossum Eagles DB Notre Dame
25 86 Jonathan Quinn Jaguars QB Middle Tennessee State
26 87 Kevin Williams Jets DB Oklahoma State
27 88 Rashaan Shehee Chiefs RB Washington
28 89 Chris Ruhman 49ers T Texas A&M
29 90 Jonathan Brown Packers DE Tennessee
30 91 Brian Griese Broncos QB Michigan
31 92 Hines Ward Steelers WR Georgia

1999 (after Loverne):

29 90 David Loverne Jets G San Jose State
30 91 Tony George Patriots DB Florida
31 92 Jeff Paulk Falcons RB Arizona State
32 93 Travis McGriff Broncos WR Florida
33 94 Cletidus Hunt Packers DT Kentucky State
34 95 Amos Zereoue Steelers RB West Virginia
4 1 96 Paul Miranda Colts DB Central Florida
2 97 John Welbourn Eagles G California
3 98 Craig Yeast Bengals WR Kentucky
4 99 Anthony Parker 49ers DB Weber State
5 100 Hannibal Navies Panthers LB Colorado
6 101 Joe Germaine Rams QB Ohio State
7 102 Dameane Douglas Raiders WR California
8 103 Sedrick Irvin Lions RB Michigan State
9 104 Jason Perry Chargers DB North Carolina State
10 105 Brandon Stokley Ravens WR SW Louisiana
11 106 Warrick Holdman Bears LB Texas A&M
12 107 Nate Stimson Redskins LB Georgia Tech
13 108 Larry Parker Chiefs WR USC
14 109 Aaron Smith Steelers DE Northern Colorado
15 110 Pierson Prioleau 49ers DB Virginia Tech
16 111 Rosevelt Colvin Bears DE Purdue
17 112 Sean Bennett Giants RB Northwestern
18 113 Dexter Jackson Buccaneers DB Florida State
19 114 Brad Ware Oilers DB Auburn
20 115 Antonio Cochran Seahawks DE Georgia
21 116 Joel Makovicka Cardinals RB Nebraska
22 117 Donald Mitchell Oilers DB SMU
23 118 Wane McGarity Cowboys WR Texas
24 119 Keith Newman Bills LB North Carolina
25 120 Kenny Wright Vikings DB NW Louisiana
26 121 Kevin Landolt Jaguars DE West Virginia
27 122 Bobby Collins Bills TE North Alabama

1997:

8 8 James Farrior Jets LB Virginia
9 9 Tom Knight Cardinals DB Iowa
10 10 Chris Naeole Saints G Colorado
11 11 Michael Booker Falcons DB Nebraska
12 12 Warrick Dunn Buccaneers RB Florida State
13 13 Tony Gonzalez Chiefs TE California
14 14 Reinard Wilson Bengals DE Florida State
15 15 Yatil Green Dolphins WR Miami (FL)
16 16 Reidel Anthony Buccaneers WR Florida
17 17 Kenard Lang Redskins DE Miami (FL)
18 18 Kenny Holmes Oilers DE Miami (FL)
19 19 Tarik Glenn Colts T California
20 20 Dwayne Rudd Vikings LB Alabama
21 21 Renaldo Wynn Jaguars DE Notre Dame
22 22 David LaFleur Cowboys TE LSU
23 23 Antowain Smith Bills RB Houston
24 24 Chad Scott Steelers DB Maryland
25 25 Jon Harris Eagles DE Virginia
26 26 Jim Druckenmiller 49ers QB Virginia Tech
27 27 Rae Carruth Panthers WR Colorado
28 28 Trevor Pryce Broncos DE Clemson
29 29 Chris Canty Patriots DB Kansas State
30 30 Ross Verba Packers G Iowa
2 1 31 Rick Terry Jets DT North Carolina
2 32 Nathan Davis Falcons DT Indiana
3 33 Rob Kelly Saints DB Ohio State
4 34 Jamie Sharper Ravens LB Virginia
5 35 Juan Roque Lions T Arizona State
6 36 Tiki Barber Giants RB Virginia
7 37 Jerry Wunsch Buccaneers T Wisconsin
8 38 John Allred Bears TE USC
9 39 Jared Tomich Saints DE Nebraska
10 40 Dexter McCleon Rams DB Clemson
11 41 Byron Hanspard Falcons RB Texas Tech
12 42 Jake Plummer Cardinals QB Arizona State
13 43 Corey Dillon Bengals RB Washington
14 44 Sam Madison Dolphins DB Louisville
15 45 Freddie Jones Chargers TE North Carolina
16 46 Joey Kent Oilers WR Tennessee
17 47 Kevin Lockett Chiefs WR Kansas State
18 48 Adam Meadows Colts T Georgia
19 49 Torrian Gray Vikings DB Virginia Tech
20 50 Mike Logan Jaguars DB West Virginia
21 51 Greg Jones Redskins LB Colorado
22 52 Marcellus Wiley Bills DE Columbia
23 53 Will Blackwell Steelers WR San Diego State
24 54 Kevin Abrams Lions DB Syracuse
25 55 Marc Edwards 49ers RB Notre Dame
26 56 Mike Minter Panthers DB Nebraska
27 57 James Darling Eagles LB Washington State
28 58 Kim Herring Ravens DB Penn State
29 59 Brandon Mitchell Patriots DE Texas A&M
30 60 Darren Sharper Packers DB William & Mary
3 1 61 Sedrick Shaw Patriots RB Iowa
2 62 Troy Davis Saints RB Iowa State
3 63 Frank Middleton Buccaneers G Arizona
4 64 Jay Graham Ravens RB Tennessee
5 65 Dexter Coakley Cowboys DB Appalachian State
6 66 Ronde Barber Buccaneers DB Virginia
7 67 Dan Neil Broncos G Texas
8 68 Ryan Phillips Giants DE Idaho
9 69 Bob Sapp Bears G Washington
10 70 O.J. Santiago Falcons TE Kent State
11 71 Duce Staley Eagles RB South Carolina
12 72 Adam Treu Raiders T Nebraska
13 73 Jason Taylor Dolphins DE Akron
14 74 Mike Hamilton Chargers LB North Carolina A&T
15 75 Denard Walker Oilers DB LSU
16 76 Rod Payne Bengals C Michigan
17 77 Greg Clark 49ers TE Stanford
18 78 Stalin Colinet Vikings DE Boston College
19 79 James Hamilton Jaguars LB North Carolina
20 80 Derek Smith Redskins LB Arizona State
21 81 Scott Sanderson Oilers T Washington State
22 82 Paul Wiggins Steelers T Oregon
23 83 Steve Scifres Cowboys G Wyoming
24 84 Ty Howard Cardinals DB Ohio State
25 85 Tim Kohn Raiders T Iowa State
26 86 Bert Berry Colts LB Notre Dame
27 87 Kinnon Tatum Panthers LB Notre Dame
28 88 Dedric Ward Jets WR Northern Iowa
29 89 Chris Carter Patriots DB Texas
30 90 Brett Conway Packers K Penn State
31 91 Mike Vrabel Steelers DE Ohio State
32 92 Derrick Rodgers Dolphins LB Arizona State
33 93 Ronnie Ward Dolphins LB Kansas
34 94 Kenny Wheaton Cowboys DB Oregon
35 95 Brad Maynard Giants P Ball State
36 96 Brent Smith Dolphins T Mississippi State
4 1 97 Damon Denson Patriots G Michigan
2 98 Derrick Mason Oilers WR Michigan State
3 99 Danny Wuerffel Saints QB Florida
4 100 Henri Crockett Falcons LB Florida State
5 101 Antonio Anderson Cowboys DT Syracuse
6 102 Terry Day Jets DE Mississippi State
7 103 Pete Monty Giants LB Wisconsin
8 104 Leon Johnson Jets RB North Carolina
9 105 Darnell Autry Bears RB Northwestern
10 106 Chris Dishman Cardinals G Nebraska
11 107 Pratt Lyons Oilers DE Troy State
12 108 Marcus Robinson Bears WR South Carolina
13 109 Raleigh Roundtree Chargers T South Carolina State
14 110 Pat Barnes Chiefs QB California
15 111 Tremain Mack Bengals DB Miami (FL)
16 112 Ryan Tucker Rams C TCU
17 113 Antonio Banks Vikings DB Virginia Tech
18 114 Seth Payne Jaguars DT Cornell
19 115 Albert Connell Redskins WR Texas A&M
20 116 Keith Poole Saints WR Arizona State
21 117 Delmonico Montgomery Colts DB Houston
22 118 Tyrus McCloud Ravens LB Louisville
23 119 Damien Robinson Eagles DB Iowa
24 120 Jamie Nails Bills T Florida A&M
25 121 Jerome Daniels Dolphins G Northeastern
26 122 Tarek Saleh Panthers DE Wisconsin
27 123 Chad Levitt Raiders RB Cornell
28 124 Cory Gilliard Broncos DB Ball State
29 125 Ed Ellis Patriots T SUNY-Buffalo
30 126 Jermaine Smith Packers DT Georgia
31 127 Macey Brooks Cowboys WR James Madison
32 128 Alshermond Singleton Buccaneers LB Temple
33 129 Nicky Sualua Cowboys RB Ohio State
34 130 Matt Russell Lions LB Colorado
5 1 131 Lamont Burns Jets G East Carolina
2 132 Jamel Williams Redskins DB Nebraska
3 133 Marcus Wimberly Falcons DB Miami (FL)
4 134 Jeff Mitchell Ravens C Florida
5 135 Pete Chryplewicz Lions TE Notre Dame
6 136 Sam Garnes Giants DB Cincinnati
7 137 Patrick Hape Buccaneers TE Alabama
8 138 Kenny Bynum Chargers RB South Carolina State
9 139 Chad Carpenter Cardinals WR Washington State
10 140 Keith Thibodeaux Redskins DB NW Louisiana
11 141 Van Hiles Bears DB Kentucky
12 142 Eric Stokes Seahawks DB Nebraska
13 143 George McCullough Oilers DB Baylor
14 144 Andre Purvis Bengals DT North Carolina
15 145 Raymond Austin Jets DB Tennessee
16 146 Paul Bradford Chargers DB Portland State
17 147 Damon Jones Jaguars TE Southern Illinois
18 148 Twan Russell Redskins LB Miami (FL)
19 149 Barron Tanner Dolphins DT Oklahoma
20 150 Nathaniel Jacquet Colts WR San Diego State
21 151 Tony Williams Vikings DT Memphis
22 152 Ndukwe Kalu Eagles DE Rice
23 153 Sean Woodson Bills DB Jackson State
24 154 George Jones Steelers RB San Diego State
25 155 Luther Broughton Eagles TE Furman
26 156 Carl Powell Colts DE Louisville
27 157 Nick Lopez Dolphins DE Texas Southern
28 158 Taje Allen Rams DB Texas
29 159 Vernon Crawford Patriots LB Florida State
30 160 Anthony Hicks Packers LB Middle Tennessee State
31 161 Duane Ashman Lions DE Virginia
32 162 Brad Badger Redskins G Stanford
33 163 June Henley Chiefs RB Kansas
6 1 164 Tim Scharf Jets LB Northwestern
2 165 Nicky Savoie Saints TE LSU
3 166 John Fiala Dolphins LB Washington
4 167 Steve Lee Ravens RB Indiana
5 168 Tony Ramirez Lions G Northern Colorado
6 169 Al Harris Buccaneers DB Texas A&M-Kingsville
7 170 Brian Manning Dolphins WR Stanford
8 171 Mike Cherry Giants QB Murray State
9 172 Calvin Branch Raiders RB Colorado State
10 173 Mike Crawford Dolphins LB Nevada
11 174 Itula Mili Seahawks TE BYU
12 175 Rod Brown Cardinals RB North Carolina State
13 176 Canute Curtis Bengals LB West Virginia
14 177 Ed Perry Dolphins TE James Madison
15 178 Daniel Palmer Chargers C Air Force
16 179 Muadianvita Kazadi Rams LB Tulsa
17 180 Calvin Collins Falcons C Texas A&M
18 181 Dennis Stallings Oilers LB Illinois
19 182 Scott Von der Ahe Colts LB Arizona State
20 183 Robert Tate Vikings WR Cincinnati
21 184 Daimon Shelton Jaguars RB Sacramento State
22 185 Marcus Spriggs Bills G Houston
23 186 Daryl Porter Steelers DB Boston College
24 187 Lee Vaughn Cowboys DB Wyoming
25 188 Tony McCombs Cardinals LB Eastern Kentucky
26 189 Matt Finkes Panthers DE Ohio State
27 190 Antwuan Wyatt Eagles WR Bethune-Cookman
28 191 Chuck Clements Jets QB Houston
29 192 Tony Gaiter Patriots WR Miami (FL)
30 193 Grady Jackson Raiders DT Knoxville
31 194 Cornell Brown Ravens DE Virginia Tech
32 195 Isaac Byrd Chiefs WR Kansas
33 196 Shawn Swayda Bears DT Arizona State
34 197 Nigea Carter Buccaneers WR Michigan State
35 198 Edward Jasper Eagles DT Texas A&M
36 199 Rod Manuel Steelers DE Oklahoma
37 200 Richard Hogans Bears LB Memphis
38 201 Ricky Parker Bears DB San Diego State
7 1 202 Steve Rosga Jets DB Colorado
2 203 Hudhaifa Ismaeli Dolphins DB Northwestern
3 204 Tony Graziani Falcons QB Oregon
4 205 Chris Ward Ravens DE Kentucky
5 206 Terry Battle Lions RB Arizona State
6 207 Koy Detmer Eagles QB Colorado
7 208 Matt Keneley Giants DT USC
8 209 Anthony DeGrate Buccaneers DT Stephen F. Austin
9 210 Mike Miano Bears DT SW Missouri State
10 211 Carlos Jones Seahawks DB Miami (FL)
11 212 Mark Smith Cardinals DE Auburn
12 213 Chris Miller Packers WR USC
13 214 Nathan Parks Chiefs T Stanford
14 215 Cedric White Rams DE North Carolina A&T
15 216 Armon Williams Oilers LB Arizona
16 217 William Carr Bengals DT Michigan
17 218 Torin James Chargers LB North Carolina A&T
18 219 Clarence Thompson Colts DB Knoxville
19 220 Artie Ulmer Vikings LB Valdosta State
20 221 Jon Hesse Jaguars LB Nebraska
21 222 Chris Bayne Falcons DB Fresno State
22 223 Michael Adams Steelers WR Texas
23 224 Omar Stoutmire Cowboys DB Fresno State
24 225 Byron Capers Eagles DB Florida State
25 226 Pat Fitzgerald Bills TE Texas
26 227 Deauntae Brown Eagles DB Central State (OH)
27 228 Kris Mangum Panthers TE Mississippi
28 229 Jason Ferguson Jets DT Georgia

"salfino" <sal...@home.com> wrote in message
news:_vdm6.308352$w35.50...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com...

Glenn Greenstein

unread,
Feb 25, 2001, 5:30:52 PM2/25/01
to
The only thing I can see an argument for is that Sharper and Rudd may be more
developed players than Farrior at this point. Everything else looked fine

salfino

unread,
Feb 25, 2001, 7:15:42 PM2/25/01
to
I think Rudd was going to be a cap casualty. We'll see. Farrior gets his
chance to prove his ability this year. Remember, no one knew anything about
Willey until he got his chance with Smith's departure.


"Glenn Greenstein" <lex...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3A9989D0...@optonline.net...

Lennybrsco

unread,
Feb 25, 2001, 8:52:40 PM2/25/01
to
<< There was also a Farrior who is a solid LB now that he's healthy and will
start
next season, >>


The 8th pick of the draft who took years to alternate with Roman Pfifer. A
prime example of what this article was talking about- the guys who Parcells
drafted had to be supplemented with overpaid veterans.

<< Ward who has made lots of big plays, >>

Lotta drops and no-shows, too. Probably gone.


<< Fabini who will be a cornerstone
of our OL, an >>

Good player but not a Pro-Bowler or a great run blocker. One of maybe 3 or 4
really good picks by Parcells in his first 3 years, that's not good enough.

Lennybrsco

unread,
Feb 25, 2001, 8:59:51 PM2/25/01
to
<< I think Rudd was going to be a cap casualty. >>


Doubt it, he's one of the best young LB's in the game.

Farrior is an unproven quantity even after 4 years. I liked him out of UVA but
you guys have to be unhappy with how he's developed and been used. He's
probably a better 4-3 backer, so this season is now or never. If he develops,
I'll bet you he'll be hard to resign next year.

<< Remember, no one knew anything about
Willey until he got his chance with Smith's departure.
>>

Not true at all. Wiley was a second round pick who many thought had first
round ability. The Bills groomed him to contribute almost right away even
though he was stuck behind veterans for a few years.

That was Parcells' biggest screwup. Failing in the second and third rounds,
especially when the team didn't have first round picks.

salfino

unread,
Feb 26, 2001, 10:03:16 AM2/26/01
to
Total out-of-ass talking BS. See comments (and facts!) in line:

"Lennybrsco" <lenny...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010225205951...@ng-xa1.aol.com...


> << I think Rudd was going to be a cap casualty. >>
>
>
> Doubt it, he's one of the best young LB's in the game.

Oh yeah: you better tell that to the Vikings. But I'm sure you know more
about Rudd than they do:

Published Saturday, February 17, 2001
Vikings talking to linebacker Wong
Kevin Seifert / Star Tribune


The Vikings defense could have as many as six new starters next season, as
defensive end John Randle, nose tackle Tony Williams, linebacker Dwayne
Rudd, free safety Orlando Thomas and possibly linebacker Ed McDaniel are all
candidates to be set loose in the coming months

> << Remember, no one knew anything about
> Willey until he got his chance with Smith's departure.
> >>
>
> Not true at all. Wiley was a second round pick who many thought had first
> round ability. The Bills groomed him to contribute almost right away even
> though he was stuck behind veterans for a few years.

More out-of-ass-talking. Wiley had eight sacks and 67 tackles in three
combined years before getting a chance to start in 2000. Look it up.


>
> That was Parcells' biggest screwup. Failing in the second and third
rounds,
> especially when the team didn't have first round picks.

Was Randy Thomas a screw up? The Jets had exactly one pick in the top half
of those rounds that was a bust: Terry. Why don't you look back at those
drafts and tell me who the Jets should have taken. While you're at it, tell
me the success rate of picks in the bottom half of rounds two and three.


Lennybrsco

unread,
Feb 26, 2001, 6:07:46 PM2/26/01
to

Salfino,

You reveal yourself to be pretty ignorant with every point you tried to make.

You don't consider Dorian Boose a bust?
You might be in the minority on that one. He's done almost nothing. I don't
know who the Jets should have taken but I know Miami has 3 starters and 1 Pro
Bowlers from their 97-99 2nd round draft picks and got future Pro-Bowler Todd
Wade there last year.

Dwayne Rudd is a free agent, btw. The Vikes don't have to cut him, but as bad
as their d is, they must try to re-sign him.

Real football people, especially those who follow the draft at all knew who
Marcellus Wiley was and is. Don't tell me he was an unknown b/c this just
shows you to be the clueless, myopic Jet fan that you are.


BobJensen08863

unread,
Feb 26, 2001, 8:41:24 PM2/26/01
to
>Subject: Re: NYT - Big cap problems for NYJ
>From: lenny...@aol.com (Lennybrsco)
>Date: 2/26/01 6:07 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20010226180746.11123.00000032@ng-xa

>
>You don't consider Dorian Boose a bust?
>You might be in the minority on that one. He's done almost nothing. I don't
>know who the Jets should have taken but I know Miami has 3 starters and 1 Pro
>Bowlers from their 97-99 2nd round draft picks and got future Pro-Bowler Todd
>Wade there last year.
>
How is Todd Wade a future Pro Bowler, but LT Jason Fabini (4th round), RT Ryan
Young (7th round) and RG Randy Thomas (2nd round) are not future Pro Bowlers.
What 7th round picks have the Dolphins made that can compare to NT Jason
Ferguson and RT Ryan Young?

Bob Jensen

salfino

unread,
Feb 26, 2001, 8:51:13 PM2/26/01
to
When you have no facts, attack. Rudd is a cap casualty. I was right. You
were, as usual, talking out of your ass. If he was half as good as you claim
he is, the defenseless Vikes would never consider letting him go. And I
never said Boose wasn't a bust. I asked who the Jets passed up that was so
obviously better. I also asked for an objective analysis of the success
ratio of players picked in the last half of rounds two and three. Look at
the evidence from my previous post. (But you won't, because that would
actually lead to a meaningful, informed dialogue.)

I attended the Wiley draft with a media credential. I knew about him coming
out of school. The guy was picked late in the second round. If "many thought
he had first round ability," he would have been picked in the first round.
Duh. Teams don't give a crap where you go to school, or if you go to school.
Ask Eric Swann. You wrote: "The Bills groomed him to contribute almost right
away even though he was stuck behind veterans for a few years." What the
hell does that mean? He didn't do squat right away, so what's your point? We
can say the Jets were grooming Farrior the same way if he excells with more
playing time.

"Lennybrsco" <lenny...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20010226180746...@ng-xa1.aol.com...

Lennybrsco

unread,
Feb 26, 2001, 9:15:32 PM2/26/01
to
Jensen,

Ferguson is over-rated. He was benched last year and there are at least 6
better DT's in the division with 2 on my team alone. If Ferguson gets any
decent offers in free agency I'll be surprised. Young is OK but nowhere near
the run blocker Todd Wade is.

Ferguson and Young might be your idea of great picks but they are only average
everywhere else.

Lennybrsco

unread,
Feb 26, 2001, 10:31:28 PM2/26/01
to

Thanks for nothing, per usual, Salfino. Why is it that Democrats are so thick
headed and impossible to reason with? What were you doing at the draft that
day, sweeping up after the media

As for your "meaningful" draft dialogue I guess you are inferring that there
were no good players to be had in the second round because the Jets didn't find
any. Would you like a list of second round Pro-Bowlers to very good players
who've been picked from Round 2 in from '97-'99 :
97:
RB Corey Dillon
TE Freddie Jones
CB Sam Madison
LB Jamie Sharper

98:
CB Patrick Surtain
LB Sam Cowart
S Tony parrish
CB Samari Rolle
WR Germaine Crowell

99:
LB Mike Peterson
FB Rob Konrad
WR Peerless Price
RT Jon Jansen
LT Chris Terry

"The Bills groomed him to contribute almost right
away even though he was stuck behind veterans for a few years." What the
hell does that mean? He didn't do squat right away, so what's your point?

Marcellus Wiley was behind Bruce Smith, a HOF pass rusher, you cretinous moron.
The Bills didn't have to rush him into full-time service and that's the point.
It doesn't mean nobody knew about him, as you so inaccurately put it.

<< We
can say the Jets were grooming Farrior the same way if he excells with more
playing time. >>

Yeah, OK monkey boy. The 8th overall pick should need 4 years and Roman Pfifer
and his 3 plus million dollar cap hits to make him ready to play in the NFL.
Only in Jet-land.

<< Rudd is a cap casualty. I was right >>

The Vikes haven't made a decision on their FA linebacker yet. How is he a cap
casualty?

Change your diaper, Salfino. Your crap smells and makes no sense.

User455673

unread,
Feb 26, 2001, 11:12:39 PM2/26/01
to
>As for your "meaningful" draft dialogue I guess you are inferring that there
>were no good players to be had in the second round because the Jets didn't
>find
>any. Would you like a list of second round Pro-Bowlers to very good players
>who've been picked from Round 2 in from '97-'99 :
> 97:
>RB Corey Dillon
>TE Freddie Jones
>CB Sam Madison
>LB Jamie Sharper
>
>98:
>CB Patrick Surtain
>LB Sam Cowart
>S Tony parrish
>CB Samari Rolle
>WR Germaine Crowell
>
>99:
>LB Mike Peterson
>FB Rob Konrad
>WR Peerless Price
>RT Jon Jansen
>LT Chris Terry
>
>

This is a terrible job, even by you. Salfino's point was dead-on, and one you
never addressed. Who did the Jets miss out in the last three years in the
second round?

Here is a breakdown of the players you mentioned as missed opportunities:

'98:

Parrish (35th)
Cowart (39th)
Surtain (44th)
Rolle (46th)
Crowell (50th)

Dorian Boose was taken with the 56th pick.

'99

Chris Terry (34th)
Peterson (36th)
Jansen (37th)
Konrad (43rd)
Price (53rd)

Randy Thomas was taken with the 57th pick. BTW, nobody on that list with the
exception of Jansen would has done more in the league than Thomas. Konrad??
LOL. Deon Dyer will be starting in his place by mid-season.

Again, a terrible job Lenny; I know it's the off-season, but you've got to
bring more to the table than this.


david lee t.

LdoubleE80

unread,
Feb 26, 2001, 11:59:06 PM2/26/01
to
>From: user4...@aol.com (User455673)
>Date: 2/26/01 11:12 PM Eastern

>Konrad??
>LOL. Deon Dyer will be starting in his place by mid-season.

You're a Dolphin expert now? Konrad's blocking improved greatly from his rookie
year to last. He was the lead blocker for the best rushing year by a Dolphin
since 78. The line was better, but the without a good lead blocker, Lamar Smith
wouldn't have been nearly as successful because he is a straight-ahead runner.
He can't afford to have his fullback stuffed in the hole because he can't dance
around him ala Barry Sanders. Stick with the Jets.

User455673

unread,
Feb 27, 2001, 1:31:59 AM2/27/01
to

So when Dyer is starting ahead of Konrad next year, can I take it that you'll
come out here and plead forgiveness?? And are you also saying that Konrad has
made more of an impact than Thomas has?

BTW, lack of knowledge about the Jets has never stopped you and fans of other
teams from posting out here; so if I can't beat you, I'll just have to join
you.


david lee t.

Lennybrsco

unread,
Feb 27, 2001, 6:53:46 AM2/27/01
to
Dave,

Again you miss the point. There are good players in every round of every
draft. Second round picks should at least become reliable starters, not Dorian
Booses and Rick Terrys. Rob Konrad is one of those picks.

Salfino's posts are just more whining and justification of a bad draft record
during the first three years of Parcells' tenure, just like yours are.

LdoubleE80

unread,
Feb 27, 2001, 3:38:57 PM2/27/01
to
>From: user4...@aol.com (User455673)
>Date: 2/27/01 1:31 AM Eastern Standard Time

>So when Dyer is starting ahead of Konrad next year, can I take it that you'll
>come out here and plead forgiveness?? And are you also saying that Konrad has
>made more of an impact than Thomas has?

You know nothing about Deon Dyer, you're "prediction" is nothing more than a
guess. If I wanted to say that Konrad had more of an impact than Thomas I would
have written that. My comments were in reply to yours saying "Konrad sucked." I
am not a inept homer who can't identify players that aren't very good on my
team. It's just that Konrad isn't one of them.

>BTW, lack of knowledge about the Jets has never stopped you and fans of other
>teams from posting out here; so if I can't beat you, I'll just have to join
>you.
>

Feel free to point out that same lack of knowledge to your fellow Jet fans,
many of whom watch more Jet games and know less than I--somehow.

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