UK NSA letter and resignation letter from George Fleming.
george.fleming2
the UK NSA letter I received and my resignation reply letter. Please find
enclosed both letters for TRB readers perusal.
Please note that by rejecting the authority of the UK NSA I have therefore
rejected the overall authority of the Baha'i Administrative Order headed by
the Universal House of Justice Haifa Isreal.
By my actions the Baha'i institutions believe I have refused to obey the
Word of God, and in turn reject obediance to the Covenant the Will and
testament of Abdu'l Baha and all five stations ( The Bab, Baha'u'llah,
Abdu'l Baha, the Guardian and finally the Universal House of Justice).
I therefore can no longer call myself a Baha'i. However I do not think my
own personal religious feelings can switch from belief in Baha'u'llah to
disbelief because I have sent in a resignation letter. I think such concepts
are more complicated than just turning on and off a water tap. I also never
sent my resignation letter to avoid sanctions or because I was drunk, mad or
whacko which is the belief of Professor Susan Maneck.
I believe the letter sent to me by Dr Kishan Manocha (A lawyer himself and
Assistant Secretary of the UK NSA) is crossing European human rights laws
introduced to Northern Ireland in 1998 with spirtual laws of the Baha'i
Faith. This is not the first time I have come across crossed boundaries of
Baha'i jurisprudence with civil law, common law and now European human
rights law, in my 13 years as a Baha'i.
George Fleming
Letter from NSA of the Baha'is of the United Kingdom'
27 Rutland gate, London SW7 1PD
October 18,2002
Mr George Fleming
Dear Baha'i friend,
The national Spirtual assembly appreciates your desire to defend the good
name of our beloved Faith and the sincerity with which you seek to do so.
However, uour recent imvolvement in certain email discussion groups may have
inadvertently helped the cause of those very individuals from whom you are
seeking to protect the Faith, and this has become a source of some concern
to the National Assembly.
The national Spiritual Assembly therefore instructs you, with immeciate
effect, to cease and disist from participating in the SCI, TRB and ARB
e-discussion lists and in any other unmoderated discussions conducted over
email. Further, you are requested to cease direct communication with Pat
Kohli and Susan Maneck and the national Spirtual Assembbly of the United
States. However should you have a grievance which you would like to bring to
the attention of the latter body you are kindly asked to refer such a matter
to the attention of the National Assembly of the United Kingdom.
The national Assembly further asks you to refrain from discussing any of the
issues raised in this letter with anyone other than Councellor Shahriavi,
the national Spirtual Assembly of the United Kingdom, or Auxiliary Board
members Denis Coyle and Ann O'Sullivan.
The National Spirtual Assembly trusts that you will abide by what is now
being asked of you. Should you fail to do so, the national Assembly will
have no choice but to take further action.
With loving Baha'i greetings.
National Spirtual Assembly
Kishan Manocha, Assistant Secretary.
George Fleming
Belfast N ireland
Dear National Spirtual Assembly members
After reading your letter 18/10/02 were you stated:
"The NSA therefore instructs you, with immediate effect, to cease and desist
from particpating in SCI, TRB, and ARB e-discussion lists and in any other
unmoderated discussions conducted over e/mail"
Along with SCI there are some 42,760 more unmoderated groups on the internet
which are not Baha'i related unmoderated newsgroups.
I therefore believe this instruction is totally against me my human and
freedom of rights, and therefore have been left with no alternattive other
than to resign from the Baha'i Faith.
I herby declare that on 21/10/02 George Fleming Belfast N Ireland has
resigned his membership from the Baha'i Faith.
Membership Number ******
Signed George Fleming Bahai Faith membership card enclosed.
Brian Walker
Snipped except this excerpt from the UK NSA:
> The national Spiritual Assembly therefore instructs you, with immeciate
> effect, to cease and disist from participating in the SCI, TRB and ARB
> e-discussion lists and in any other unmoderated discussions conducted over
> email.
It seems to me that what the NSA asked of you was to stop participating
in the SCI, TRB and ARB _discussion lists_ and not to _e-mail_ on the
same topics either - probably to cover the possibility you were writing
privately to the list members and carrying on in the same vein.
How you managed to infer they had ordered you off all NG is beyond me
though.
Brian
george.fleming2
bfwa...@net-yan.com wrote on 5/11/02 9:03 am:
Dr Brian Walker,
If I took this letter to the newspapers they would make your facist little
Baha'i religion look like a 19 century fundamentalist little Protestant
sect. Can you imagine any other religion in modern day western society
ordering one of its memnbers of the Internet because other members reported
him for cussing on the Internet and being a bad boy?
Furthermore, they did not ask, they instructed, on the pretense that they
are God's policemen over all Baha;is, furthermore you and your facist Baha'i
friends first tried to censor TRB, and ARB and when that failed you then
decided you would censor a certain type of Baha'is from participating. I am
not the first Baha'i who has been hounded off TRB and ARB by Pat Kohli,
Susan Maneck and probably yourself, because they did not come up to your
expectations. Read Freds post below about the censorship campaign. Susan
Maneck also told me Frederick Glaysher was mentally ill. She did not take
long to start spreading the same crap about me, once I handed my card
in..........GF
Three Messages to bahai universal house of justice
-------------------------------------------------------
March 31, 1997
The universal house of justice of the bahais of the world
Haifa, Israel
Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice:
After careful reflection and prayer for the past few days, I've
decided that open public discussion and knowledge are more
important than my own status as a Bahai.
I have been a Bahai for more than twenty years, since 1976. I
became a Bahai by reading almost every single Bahai book
published at the time. Given my background as a Catholic and
poet, I was deeply moved by the beauty and profundity of the
Bahai Writings. As a young person, I spent two months travel
teaching throughout Michigan with several other youthful,
innocent Bahais. Like many, I have sacrificed financially to
contribute to the Bahai Faith. I pioneered for a year and a
half in Japan, for two years on an American Indian reservation,
and have travel taught in China. The spiritual profundity of
the Bahai vision, as reflected in the work of the
African-American poet Robert Hayden, inspired me to study at
the University of Michigan under him and to spend considerable
time and labor editing his collected poems and prose for
Liveright and the University of Michigan Press. I have
published two essays in the Bahai magazine World Order and
spent more time than I can remember at Bahai summer camps,
workshops, and deepenings. Throughout all my varied Bahai
experience, I have loved the Figures and Teachings of the Faith
even as the conviction has grown that all information and
discussion in the Bahai Faith is subtly manipulated, controlled,
and distorted for the "good of the Faith." There seems to be a
pervasive, rigid control of all thought, ideas, and information
that calls into question the motives of the individuals in
power in the Bahai Administration.
As a published writer and former college and university
instructor of rhetoric and literature for over ten years, I
believe the whole process of "review" has become a complete
farce and disgrace to the Bahai Faith and is suggestive of the
worst censorship under the most repressive regimes, religious
or secular, of historical experience. If one truly wishes to
understand why many Bahais, both highly educated and others,
leave the Bahai Faith or become "inactive" and withdraw into
silence and uninvolvement with the religion, one need only to
look objectively at what seems to be the oppressive and
coercive methods of people in the Bahai Administration itself
to find the answer.
My experiencing of these same methods of censorship and
distortion on soc.religion.bahai proved to be the last
intolerable straw. My attempt to form an unmoderated newsgroup
on the Internet that no one could manipulate and censor has a
long experience of Bahai tyranny in the background. The
resorting to deceit and back-channel communication by the
moderators of soc.religion.bahai and others naively believing
they're working for the benefit of the Bahai Faith by
campaigning for 691 unethical NO votes on talk.religion.bahai
further proves the pervasive acceptance of disreputable tactics
by Bahais in their attempt to maintain a stranglehold over all
thought and discussion.
Recently, more than ever, I've often recalled the words to me
in private several times of Robert Hayden, the only Bahai to
be appointed Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress:
"Why I continue to have anything to do with the Bahai Faith, I
do not know, I do not know." I myself no longer know.
I suppose I hope that the oppressive, coercive methods that
have come to be accepted and justified in the Bahai
Administration, demonstrated for instance in the crushing of
the magazine Dialogue, the incidents surrounding the Bahai
Encyclopedia, the listserv Talisman I, and the continuingly
crude, unreadable propoganda vehicle of the American Bahai,
might yet be put aside in favor of the beautiful vision of
Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha for freedom of religious conscience
and belief and a humane, tolerant universalism. I fear that all
too often the religious totalitarianism of Baha'u'llah's
fanatical homeland has seeped into every nook and cranny of
His religion, smothering out the free light of the human soul
and hamstringing His Administration.
It was with the bitterest of feelings that I observed some
time ago the Bahai exhibition, a deceitful propaganda event
really, on freedom of religious conscience and belief sponsored
by the National Spiritual Assembly in the rotunda of the
Capitol in Washington, D.C., so far in reality from the truth
was it, so misled, trusting, and uninformed were the
Congressmen of my country....
If censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith, I would like to
know what passages of the Bahai Writings support it and what
are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship. It seems to
me that censorship pervades the Bahai Faith so thoroughly that
some Bahais regularly use it as a method of intimidation and
silencing of anyone with an unconventional opinion by accusing
the individual of being a covenant breaker. This tactic was
used against me by at least three Bahais during the discussion
period for talk.religion.bahai and tacitly condoned by the
moderators and others.
I include, at the end, a threatening, coercive email message I
received on March 27, 1997, from Mr. Hoda Mahmoudi,
Auxiliary Board Member for Michigan, at a crucial juncture of
the discussion and voting for talk.religion.bahai and would like
an explanation of his motives.
I, and perhaps the rest of the world, would greatly appreciate
evidence that there are not now nine ayatollahs residing in
Israel on Mt Carmel.
Respectfully,
Frederick Glaysher
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
>Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:45:46 -0500
>To: fgla...@hotmail.com
>From: Hoda Mahmoudi <hmah...@olivetnet.edu>
>Dear Mr. Glaysher:
>
>I have been reading your e-mail postings recently. I would like to speak
>with you by phone about some of your throughts and opinions regarding
>matters relevant to the Baha'i Faith. As an Auxiliary Board members for
>Michigan, I am always interested in issues which relate to individual
>spiritual responsibility and the Baha'i Faith's principle of unity. My
>phone number is 616/789-0590.
>
>Hope to hear from you soon.
>
>Hoda
>
>Hoda Mahmoudi, Ph.D.
>Associate Vice President for Academic Affairs
>Olivet College
>Olivet, MI 49076
>616/749-7614
Further details on Hoda Mahmoudi's coercive email
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Mahmoudi.htm
David Langness on Hoda Mahmoudi
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Langness.htm
Paul Dodenhoff on Mahmoudi
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/srb95.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Patrick Henry patric...@bigfoot.com
To: UHJ <secre...@bwc.org>; Letters to Editor <let...@nytimes.com>;
bahai-faith @ makelist.com <bahai...@makelist.com>
Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998
Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM
July 24,1998
Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice:
As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet
another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements
made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly
of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in
The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally
lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President
Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran
would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international
community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek
justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community."
The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation
of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media,
always courting the President and other members of the government,
has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context
of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human
and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as
I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997,
available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine
Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai
Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at
Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals,
Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within the
Bahai community and administration.
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm
To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more than
ayear and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications Committee (BCCA),
under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat twice now, along with
thecollusion of other Bahais, the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on
the Bahai Faith which would be known as talk.religion.bahai. You may find
extensive documentation for all of these violations of the basic human
rights of many Bahais and non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith &
Religious Freedom of Conscience":
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is
approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the
BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private
Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of
discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by
many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in
that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under
Bahai-Discuss Archives.
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/BCCAmenu.htm
Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has
approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by
the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for
more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding
talk.religion.bahai.
The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and
religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot
but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai
administration and perhaps the institutions themselves.
I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and
what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if
you will, of Bahai censorship?
--
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: Patrick Henry <patric...@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed
Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM
Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of
Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the
Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest,
David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to
the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and
so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the
uhj above any reprehensible act.... including conspiracy to murder Dr.
Daniel Jordan.
I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card
may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj
or any of its underlings to the contrary.
Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual
God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed
would never be violated in their religion.
I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly
on the matter.
I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed,
the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending
Baha'u'llah'sTeachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed
and hamstrung his Revelation.
--
Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!"
The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.)From: Incoming
Electronic Communication Operations <Subject"ie...@bwc.org>Subject:
Your Message Has Been Received...
Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM
Dear Friend,
This is an automated acknowledgement.
Your message regarding:
Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed
has been received at the Baha'i World Centre.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
To get random signatures put text files into a folder called ³Random
Signatures² into your Preferences folder.
Brian Walker
> Dr Brian Walker,
>
> If I took this letter to the newspapers they would make your facist little
> Baha'i religion look like a 19 century fundamentalist little Protestant
> sect. Can you imagine any other religion in modern day western society
> ordering one of its memnbers of the Internet because other members reported
> him for cussing on the Internet and being a bad boy?
>
> Furthermore, they did not ask, they instructed, on the pretense that they
> are God's policemen over all Baha;is, furthermore you and your facist Baha'i
> friends first tried to censor TRB, and ARB and when that failed you then
> decided you would censor a certain type of Baha'is from participating. I am
> not the first Baha'i who has been hounded off TRB and ARB by Pat Kohli,
> Susan Maneck and probably yourself, because they did not come up to your
> expectations. Read Freds post below about the censorship campaign. Susan
> Maneck also told me Frederick Glaysher was mentally ill. She did not take
> long to start spreading the same crap about me, once I handed my card
> in..........GF
They would probably laugh in your face for being the stupid man that you
are. Stupid and unprincipled, for your documented actions. But as you
seem immune to introspection and reflection, you may as well do you
worst. Seems like you have moved into the camp of the anti-Baha'is
anyway. Strange, considering a short while ago you were accusing
everyone here of being an enemy of the Baha'i faith, and here you are -
being just that.
Isn't life strange?
Brian
george.fleming2
bfwa...@net-yan.com wrote on 5/11/02 9:50 am:
>
> They would probably laugh in your face for being the stupid man that you
> are. Stupid and unprincipled, for your documented actions. But as you
> seem immune to introspection and reflection, you may as well do you
> worst. Seems like you have moved into the camp of the anti-Baha'is
> anyway. Strange, considering a short while ago you were accusing
> everyone here of being an enemy of the Baha'i faith, and here you are -
> being just that.
>
> Isn't life strange?
We will see about that, you dont live in Northern Ireland, and for your
cocky cheek I have a good mind to make you eat your words.
It was Baha'is like you Susan Maneck and Pat Kohli who helped me change my
mind. Some pioneer you are to TRB for the Baha'i Faith instead of converting
any dissidents back to the Faith you have managed to help chase me away and
turn me into an enemy, thats what happens when you stab your other Baha'is
in the back, which many in the faith are very good at doing.
GF
Brian Walker
>
>
> We will see about that, you dont live in Northern Ireland, and for your
> cocky cheek I have a good mind to make you eat your words.
>
> It was Baha'is like you Susan Maneck and Pat Kohli who helped me change my
> mind. Some pioneer you are to TRB for the Baha'i Faith instead of converting
> any dissidents back to the Faith you have managed to help chase me away and
> turn me into an enemy, thats what happens when you stab your other Baha'is
> in the back, which many in the faith are very good at doing.
>
Yeah yeah, George. You have my address. I won't wait up.
3
george.fleming2
bfwa...@net-yan.com wrote on 5/11/02 10:29 am:
> Yeah yeah, George. You have my address. I won't wait up.
I am not talking about going to Hong Kong, I am talking about using the NSA
letter and your posts (about the editor of a newspaper laughing at me) which
I will get a journalist to publish about the Baha'i faith, and then put the
article on the internet as well as send a copy to the UHJ and the UK NSA.
Remember your pals Maneck and Kohli were very keen about reporting me. Maybe
a little bit of your own medicine back wont do you three a bit of harm.
Here In Northern the journalists just love articles about religious
disputes. One about the Baha'i Faith and why I left it will go down a treat.
Brian Walker
> in article aq86j1$7h8nb$1...@ID-164902.news.dfncis.de, Brian Walker at
> bfwa...@net-yan.com wrote on 5/11/02 10:29 am:
>
>
>>Yeah yeah, George. You have my address. I won't wait up.
>
>
> I am not talking about going to Hong Kong, I am talking about using the NSA
> letter and your posts (about the editor of a newspaper laughing at me) which
> I will get a journalist to publish about the Baha'i faith, and then put the
> article on the internet as well as send a copy to the UHJ and the UK NSA.
> Remember your pals Maneck and Kohli were very keen about reporting me. Maybe
> a little bit of your own medicine back wont do you three a bit of harm.
>
> Here In Northern the journalists just love articles about religious
> disputes. One about the Baha'i Faith and why I left it will go down a treat.
>
> GF
>
3
Brian Walker
reporting now, would we? Let us have contributions from _all_ of the TRB
regulars, and lets all have a bit of fun. Japes gu leor!
Dermod Ryder
"Brian Walker" <bfwa...@net-yan.com> wrote in message
news:aq81ge$7fu78$1...@ID-164902.news.dfncis.de...
> george.fleming2 wrote:
>
> Snipped except this excerpt from the UK NSA:
>
>
> > The national Spiritual Assembly therefore instructs you, with
immeciate
> > effect, to cease and disist from participating in the SCI, TRB and
ARB
> > e-discussion lists and in any other unmoderated discussions
conducted over
> > email.
>
> It seems to me that what the NSA asked of you was to stop
participating
> in the SCI, TRB and ARB _discussion lists_ and not to _e-mail_ on
the
> same topics either - probably to cover the possibility you were
writing
> privately to the list members and carrying on in the same vein.
The language in the letter is well capable of supporting George's
interpretation that the NSA sought to ban him from any and all
"unmoderated discussions" i.e any and all Usenet groups and any and
all other groups such as Talisman. The letter speaks of George's
"involvement in certain email discussion groups" then goes on, without
drawing further distinction or different definition, to ban him from
certain named "discussion" lists and any "other unmoderated
discussions". The key identifier is "discussions" and the compelling
conclusion is that the NSA does not want him near any of them and is
threatening him if he does not keep away from them.
But it is the following paragraph which, IMO, is the most
interesting: -
"The National Assembly further asks you to refrain from discussing any
of the
issues raised in this letter with anyone other than Councellor
Shahriavi,
the national Spirtual Assembly of the United Kingdom, or Auxiliary
Board
members Denis Coyle and Ann O'Sullivan."
Now whilst the NSA politely asks in this paragraph, the punitive
threat at the end of the letter overhangs and influences everything.
On promise of sanction if he abides not by the letter's directives,
George is forbidden independent counsel and advice on the contents and
the implications of it for him. I have, of course, seen this
principle in action before - when a resigning Bahai, coming to a
meeting with the NSA and the LSA, was told he entered the meeting on
his own, without friend or supporter, or not at all. There are other
similar stories about and around - including that of an ABM who
unlawfully detained a person in a meeting that he wished to leave.
The DST has indicated that particular incident was regrettable and the
result of overzealousness - indeed the persons concerned have been
disciplined. I think the AO never disciplines its own unless they
have been caught out and, then only, that their actions might reflect
badly, or unimpress those who think the BF is liberal and somehow
committed to the values of western society. It despises western
society. This paragraph clearly reveals the intent of the AO to
suppress the rights of the individual - rights that were hard won in
western society and that are the goal of every oppressed race
throughout the world.
The right to independent counsel is fundamental to our society.
Accused of wrongdoing one has the right NOT to take the advice of the
accuser but to turn to an independent source that can assess the worth
of the accusations and advise the accused about his best interests,
which might not necessarily coincide with those of his accusers. Here
the NSA seeks to prevent George taking such independent advice - its
interests are paramount and so it refers him to advice which will keep
those interests paramount.
There is no doubt that George's efforts here rendered immense
assistance to those perceived as enemies of the AO. But, given, that
he could disobey any directive from the AO, it was crass on its part
to wade in with such heavy handed tactics. This was a situation that
called for diplomacy, for negotiation and discussion - not misplaced
threats of Fascist origin to which he could, and did, give the two
fingered salute. Occidentals tend to have a life outside Bahaism -
they can wander in and out without repercussion on their lives.
Threats of shunning or other disciplinary measures have little or no
impact therefore. One would have thought that if there were
intelligent life within the AO such an essential verity would have
been learned long ago. But it hasn't and it never will be ... at
least so long as the BF is run by inept, incompetent, dogmatic and
ultimately daft fundamentalists.
Dermod.
george.fleming2
bfwa...@net-yan.com wrote on 5/11/02 12:16 pm:
> but be sure and send _all_ the emails - we would not want to have biased
> reporting now, would we? Let us have contributions from _all_ of the TRB
> regulars, and lets all have a bit of fun. Japes gu leor!
It's a pity you never give that advice to your biased friend Pat Kohli when
he sent only copies of posts what I said to the UK NSA and quite conviently
left out what other's said..................................GF
Brian Walker
> in article aq8cq2$73pct$2...@ID-164902.news.dfncis.de, Brian Walker at
> bfwa...@net-yan.com wrote on 5/11/02 12:16 pm:
>
>
>>but be sure and send _all_ the emails - we would not want to have biased
>>reporting now, would we? Let us have contributions from _all_ of the TRB
>>regulars, and lets all have a bit of fun. Japes gu leor!
>
>
> It's a pity you never give that advice to your biased friend Pat Kohli when
> he sent only copies of posts what I said to the UK NSA and quite conviently
> left out what other's said..................................GF
George, will you not get it through your skull that the behaviour you
exhibited in your stunning entree into TRB was way beyond the pale, that
the consequences of that behaviour have now been reaped - and what was
the gain, man?
You may now claim that the gain is that you are now free of the Baha'i
faith. I would count that a grievous loss. A month ago you would have
called down fire and brimstone on the loon that would have predicted
this outcome.
You may claim you are a free man - I say you have lost a priceless
pearl, and for what, man? For pride?
Enough ... enough ... do what you will, George. I will not rise to the
bait - at least not for a while. Pity though.
Brian
Brian Walker
> The language in the letter is well capable of supporting George's
> interpretation that the NSA sought to ban him from any and all
> "unmoderated discussions" i.e any and all Usenet groups and any and
> all other groups such as Talisman. The letter speaks of George's
> "involvement in certain email discussion groups" then goes on, without
> drawing further distinction or different definition, to ban him from
> certain named "discussion" lists and any "other unmoderated
> discussions". The key identifier is "discussions" and the compelling
> conclusion is that the NSA does not want him near any of them and is
> threatening him if he does not keep away from them.
Come on Dermod - if you want to keep a very partisan eye on the wording
- George himself gives the best examples of creative misunderstanding.
My reading is quite different - but then again my pride was not pricked,
and my aims do not strive at being a pinprick in the side of the AO.
> But it is the following paragraph which, IMO, is the most
> interesting: -
>
> "The National Assembly further asks you to refrain from discussing any
> of the
> issues raised in this letter with anyone other than Councellor
> Shahriavi,
> the national Spirtual Assembly of the United Kingdom, or Auxiliary
> Board
> members Denis Coyle and Ann O'Sullivan."
>
> Now whilst the NSA politely asks in this paragraph, the punitive
> threat at the end of the letter overhangs and influences everything.
It sounded like that.
> On promise of sanction if he abides not by the letter's directives,
> George is forbidden independent counsel
Say what? Creative reading again? That was nowhere said or implied. Good
try though!
All the best,
Brian
george.fleming2
bfwa...@net-yan.com wrote on 5/11/02 12:40 pm:
Whose pale? Your narrowminded one, can you imagine any western court of law
saying, you are a bad bad Baha'i George Fleming and need punishied more than
those ex Bahai dissidents because they are allowed to cuss and sware and you
are not. You are a disgrace and have embarrassed American Baha'is Dr Susan
maneck and ex-paratrooper Pat Kohli with your silvermouthed tounge.
All good Baha'is must hold their heads up high and not be provoked, even if
a non Baha'i threatens to stick his (Sword of Allah) up your ass you must
stand above all this and take it like a good Baha'i would do.
What a load of cobblers
They would laugh the three of you Baha'i out of court..............GF
Dermod Ryder
> Dermod Ryder wrote:
>
> > The language in the letter is well capable of supporting George's
> > interpretation that the NSA sought to ban him from any and all
> > "unmoderated discussions" i.e any and all Usenet groups and any
and
> > all other groups such as Talisman. The letter speaks of George's
> > "involvement in certain email discussion groups" then goes on,
without
> > drawing further distinction or different definition, to ban him
from
> > certain named "discussion" lists and any "other unmoderated
> > discussions". The key identifier is "discussions" and the
compelling
> > conclusion is that the NSA does not want him near any of them and
is
> > threatening him if he does not keep away from them.
>
> Come on Dermod - if you want to keep a very partisan eye on the
wording
> - George himself gives the best examples of creative
misunderstanding.
> My reading is quite different - but then again my pride was not
pricked,
> and my aims do not strive at being a pinprick in the side of the AO.
I read the text, the whole text and nothing but the text. Viewed as a
whole it wants him off Internet space where he cannot be controlled
and there is more than a hint of sanctions if he does not abide by
this.
> > But it is the following paragraph which, IMO, is the most
> > interesting: -
> >
> > "The National Assembly further asks you to refrain from discussing
any
> > of the
> > issues raised in this letter with anyone other than Councellor
> > Shahriavi,
> > the national Spirtual Assembly of the United Kingdom, or Auxiliary
> > Board
> > members Denis Coyle and Ann O'Sullivan."
> >
> > Now whilst the NSA politely asks in this paragraph, the punitive
> > threat at the end of the letter overhangs and influences
everything.
>
> It sounded like that.
>
> > On promise of sanction if he abides not by the letter's
directives,
> > George is forbidden independent counsel
>
> Say what? Creative reading again? That was nowhere said or implied.
Good
> try though!
It's in the whole text - this is what you must do and if you do not do
it, we will come down on you like a tonne of bricks. George has to
withdraw from unmoderated Internet usage and not discuss this with
anybody other than the rottweilers. If he ventured to disagree with
them would he not have been thrown into perdition?
ATHC,
Dermod.
Cal E. Rollins
remember Ol' Darrick threatened the American NSA with an article to the
black media on Baha'i Slavery and I haven't seen it yet. Every month
for almost two years I've been thumbing through Ebony Magazine hoping to
see it and get some new information for my introduction to my book of
poems and zilch. Man, if you and George got together to write the
article Ireland, not Japan, would blaze. --Cal
OhMyGoodness
Now that you have some free time you might wish to join some other
so-called Baha'i groups like followers of Remey, Marangella, etc. and let
us know what kind of letters the NSAs write to you when things get heated
on the web! This is something no one has done yet as far as I know.
Dermod Ryder
"OhMyGuinness" <OhMyGo...@address.com> wrote in message
news:71Vx9.6661$U93.3...@news2.telusplanet.net...
Now you well know that the followers of Mr Melonyellow or Mr
Sogohomeagain do not have silly things like the NSA or a house of
Grumpies. Accordingly I would have to conclude that you are trying to
take the piss ... you naughty boy! Unfortunately you're not very good
at it but... then... you're not very good at very much, are you ...
stupid boy!
Has the good lady wife laced your cornflakes yet? If not, then why
not? Is she a man or a mouse?
>
george.fleming2
OhMyGo...@address.com wrote on 5/11/02 7:32 pm:
> George,
>
> Now that you have some free time you might wish to join some other
> so-called Baha'i groups like followers of Remey, Marangella, etc. and let
> us know what kind of letters the NSAs write to you when things get heated
> on the web! This is something no one has done yet as far as I know.
Do you know of any other Baha'is ever ordered off the Internet by any NSA's
over heated arguments? As for joining followers of other schismed groups, do
you think I am a glutton for punishment, being a member of the one Faith for
13 years and getting out with some of my grey matter left is plenty for me.
I am one of the lucky ones, there are numerous unhappy trapped Baha'is who
can't leave the Faith because of family ties, fear and indoctrination.
Dermod Ryder
>
> They would probably laugh in your face for being the stupid man that
you
> are. Stupid and unprincipled, for your documented actions. But as
you
> seem immune to introspection and reflection, you may as well do you
> worst. Seems like you have moved into the camp of the anti-Baha'is
> anyway. Strange, considering a short while ago you were accusing
> everyone here of being an enemy of the Baha'i faith, and here you
are -
> being just that.
>
> Isn't life strange?
'Tis indeed! But don't you remember that St George killed the Dragon
... eventually!
Dermod.
Martin
If George wish to work with the Orthodox Baha'is, I see nothing wrong
with that. We will accept his help with thankfulness. There is a
spiritual section on truebahai.com that needs to be expanded...
I am also one of the lucky ones George mentions: when I recognized the
Guardian, no member of my family became Baha'i, *only* closest
friends.
Sincerely,
Martin
http://truebahai.com/spiritual/index.html
Rabia1844
>Now you well know that the followers of Mr Melonyellow or Mr
>Sogohomeagain do not have silly things like the NSA or a house of
>Grumpies.
I believe Joel's group does have an equivalent to NSAs. The also have a
'provisional' IBC. It is provisional so that the chair doesn't usurp Joel the
same way he usurped Mason Remey.
Susan Maneck
>remember Ol' Darrick threatened the American NSA with an article to the
>black media on Baha'i Slavery and I haven't seen it yet.
Can you imagine Ebony publishing something by Darrick?
warmest, Susan
Susan Maneck
Associate Professor of History
Jackson State University
Paul Hammond
Yeah, and you too George.
You came here and *invited* the fights that you got involved
in, *invited* the consequences that you called down on yourself.
Yes, the letter from the UK NSA was heavy handed - but I hear
it was a response for you reacting to the UK NSA, the US NSA,
and Pat Kholi's inbox in the same vitriolic spamming fashion
that you employed here in public, and was recorded on the
archives at google for all to see.
Now you come along and call Pat and Brian "backstabbing"
enemies of yours because you wouldn't listen to friendly
advice, and got into daring them to write complaints about
your behaviour to the NSA who you professed absolute and
entire loyalty to at the time.
I tend towards Dermod's view of the capabilities and savvy
of Baha'i administrators, but really, you created the
situtation you found yourself in here by yourself, and
really have no one else to blame for how things went down.
You've certainly made yourself famous, but from where I'm
standing you're famous for shooting yourself in the foot - the
Baha'i who came to trb to defend the faith, and ended up
resigning himself and accusing the institutions of human
rights abuses.
Paul
OhMyGoodness
| Martin
| http://truebahai.com/spiritual/index.html
|
What is the significance or symbolic meaning of the moving butterfly behind
the woman in lingerie at above mentioned website?
http://truebahai.com/index.html
Martin
It is probably the Maid of heaven to be found in the Hidden Words. I
quote:
*Thereupon the Maid of heaven hastened forth unveiled and resplendent
from Her mystic mansion, and asked of their names, and all were told
but one. And when urged, the first letter thereof was uttered,
whereupon the dwellers of the celestial chambers rushed forth out of
their habitation of glory. And whilst the second letter was pronounced
they fell down, one and all, upon the dust. At that moment a voice was
heard from the inmost shrine: "Thus far and no farther." Verily we
bear witness to that which they have done and are now doing.*
If you have suggestions to better the website, please tell us!
Sincerely,
Martin
mult...@aros.net
We do have Local Council and National Councils, there is no
provisional IBC at this time that I know of, I htink you have that
confused with the BUPC.