Eradicate Prostitution: Arrest the Johns - Kelly Holsopple
Chive Mynde
Prostitution is a system that differentially targets females and is a
direct result of women's social, sexual, and economic subordination.
Women and girls are coerced and forced into systems of prostitution.
Others become involved in prostitution as a survival response. Being
used in prostitution is not an all-encompassing definition of who a
woman was, is or will be. The differences that set prostituted women
apart are seldom of choice or morality, they are simply differences of
circumstance. The concept of choice implies existence of at least two
options from which one chooses. The difference between starvation,
abuse, homelessness, loneliness, and death or prostitution can hardly
be called a choice.
Prostituted women and girls live lives of unlimited exposure. They are
exposed to the constant harassment and degradation of verbal assault,
to conditions of weather, to malnutrition, homelessness, disease,
incarceration, sleep deprivation, mental illness, physical and sexual
abuse, torture, and murder. There is no safety or comfort in sleeping
or waking hours. Drug and alcohol abuse provide fleeting moments of
escape, only to become addictions that magnify the horror of the
reality in which they are trapped. Unlimited access and unlimited
exposure, this is the 'lifestyle' called prostitution. The women and
girls who suffer unspeakable violence as a matter of daily life, who
suffer distortions of mind and spirit beyond comprehension are our
friends, our sisters, our mothers, our daughters.
© 1997, Kelly Holsopple, all rights reserved
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/onestorm1/sac.html
Science is not belief, but the will to find out.
Parg2000
{Parg} Chive, the article you presented was right on target. In order to make
prostitution less and less of a problem in society, we must end the market for
it.
Sky King
chyve...@my-deja.com says...
always gone after the drug sellers because they do more harm then drug
users. Same with prostitutes. My opinion neither should be arrested
but if you are going to arrest someone arrest the "seller."
sky
Sky King
Many are drug users and many just like the easy work and pay.
I am sure any of them could get a job at some fast food joint. sky
Bob
Chive Mynde wrote:
> Eradicate Prostitution: Arrest the Johns - Kelly Holsopple
>
> Prostitution is a system that differentially targets females and is a
> direct result of women's social, sexual, and economic subordination.
Nice easy job, high pay, short hours, no educational requirements.
Men should be so lucky.
Bob
Michael Snyder
Bob wrote in message <3BD42EE9...@hotmail.com>...
Isn't it funny how one feminist will say "women's work is paid less
than men's work", and then another feminist will say "we must
eradicate prostitution!", the one job that women can get and
virtually no men can, which pays more than almost any man
can earn? Hey, I'll bet that's WHY they want to eliminate it --
because it screws up their damn "wage gap" claims!
Bob
Michael Snyder wrote:
It would screw up the wage gap if they included sex work in the stats. They
don't so their lies about how much women make is distorted to support their
victimology mythos.
On the whole prostitution is a far better job than many traditional men's
jobs where over 95% of on the job injuries and deaths occur.
Bob
Wyatt
They
> don't so their lies about how much women make is distorted to support
their
> victimology mythos.
>
> On the whole prostitution is a far better job than many traditional men's
> jobs where over 95% of on the job injuries and deaths occur.
> Bob
How many women do you see as garbage collectors? Or repairing
the sewers? No a lot I bet as those jobs are low paid and
have virtually no perks. The silence is deafening from feminist
groups who want equality in those areas.
On the injuries front, my father works in construction. He has
had his fair share of injuries, from the usual bruises to having
his hand crushed by heavy machinery. He has also has also
had the unlucky experience of having workmates who have
been involved in fatal accidents. He never moans about it,
he just gets on with the job, 14 hours a day, 6 days a week
Wyatt
Giant Attitude
> Eradicate Prostitution: Arrest the Johns - Kelly Holsopple
>
> girls who suffer unspeakable violence as a matter of daily life, who
> suffer distortions of mind and spirit beyond comprehension are our
> friends, our sisters, our mothers, our daughters.
> © 1997, Kelly Holsopple, all rights reserved
>
Nope, none of these are prostitutes. Certainly not my 75 year-old
mother.
"Arrest the Johns", eh?
Funny, when the subject matter is drugs, every drug warrior agrees
that the suppliers are the real "bad guys".
Should there be a War on Drugs? That's a different subject entirely.
But accepting the War on Drugs as a current fact of life, the
suppliers, when they are caught, tried, and convicted, can be expected
to receive very severe prison terms, as well as financial penalties;
the users receive less severe terms.
But change the subject matter from drugs to prostitution. Change the
subject matter to one in which the suppliers are mostly female and the
customers are almost always male.
Now, everyone agrees that it's the customers who are the "bad guys"
and that those who are supplying the product are just poor innocent
victims who would stop supplying if those evil male customers weren't
out there providing a demand for the product.
But such is life in the matriarchal Western world.
Sky King
says...
Its the sellers that are the more dangerous. sky
Sky King
@cs.com says...
Sorry dear but it does not work that way. They go after the big fish
who are the most dangerous to society. MOST of these men do not commit
crime or use drugs and most of the prostitutes do. sky
Chive Mynde
> chyve...@my-deja.com (Chive Mynde) wrote in message news:<ccd55c9c.01102...@posting.google.com>...
> > Eradicate Prostitution: Arrest the Johns - Kelly Holsopple
> >
> > The women and
> > girls who suffer unspeakable violence as a matter of daily life, who
> > suffer distortions of mind and spirit beyond comprehension are our
> > friends, our sisters, our mothers, our daughters.
> > © 1997, Kelly Holsopple, all rights reserved
> >
>
> Nope, none of these are prostitutes.
Yup, all of those are prostitutes.
Prostitutes are part of society.
They are friends, sisters, mothers, and daughters.
You can dehumanize them all you want, they are still human beings
who are friends to some, sisters to others, mothers to children,
and daughters to parents.
- Chive
Bob
Sky King wrote:
> In article <3BD42EE9...@hotmail.com>, bobx...@hotmail.com
> says...
> >
> > Chive Mynde wrote:
> >
> > > Eradicate Prostitution: Arrest the Johns - Kelly Holsopple
> > >
> > > Prostitution is a system that differentially targets females and is a
> > > direct result of women's social, sexual, and economic subordination.
> >
> > Nice easy job, high pay, short hours, no educational requirements.
> >
> > Men should be so lucky.
> >
> Indeed. But its like saying Eradicate Drug Abuse arrest all the users.
> Its the sellers that are the more dangerous. sky
Its been said often that alcohol and nicotine are worse drugs than cocaine or
heroine. The difference is that alcohol and nicotine are distributed by big
corporations and sold inexpensively at local markets. There is little crime
associated with legal addictive drugs. Nicotine is MORE addictive than the
illegal ones. There is little crime because it is legal and relatively
inexpensive.
Making "vice" illegal promotes crime and causes organized crime. The "war on
drugs" is responsible for a huge part of crime on our streets. If drugs were
legal the crime syndicates and street gangs would be out of business
(although it would take them decades to slowly fold as it did the crime
organizations built on illegal alcohol in the 20s.)
Prostitution is the same. Making it illegal promotes organized crime and
hurts everyone. Prostitution was legal in most of the US until the 20th
century. It was a career choice for women, and it still is. Now that its
illegal women who choose that career are criminalized, have to live outside
the law with a variety of violent associates.
Its far better for all concerned to make vices legal, regulate and tax them,
and wipe out the large crime organizations that profit from them.
Bob
Michael Snyder
>
> gianta...@my-deja.com (Giant Attitude) wrote in message news:<ea45e5bb.01102...@posting.google.com>...
> > chyve...@my-deja.com (Chive Mynde) wrote in message news:<ccd55c9c.01102...@posting.google.com>...
> > > Eradicate Prostitution: Arrest the Johns - Kelly Holsopple
> > >
> > > The women and
> > > girls who suffer unspeakable violence as a matter of daily life, who
> > > suffer distortions of mind and spirit beyond comprehension are our
> > > friends, our sisters, our mothers, our daughters.
> >
>
> Yup, all of those are prostitutes.
So, you're saying that all women are prostitutes?
Or what?
Kikigoddess85
"Chive Mynde" <chyve...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:ccd55c9c.01102...@posting.google.com...
I must agree with you on that. Prostitution has been a part of society
since it was being nursed in Mesopotamia, albeit in a much different form.
The reason we find it derogatory to women now is the aspersions cast upon it
by society. (No Kiki, don't blame it on the xtians or males even though you
know you really want to)That has caused prostitution to be forced into cold
and dirty hotels and street corners. (Well that's in American culture at
least)
- the Kikigoddess
Bob
Chive Mynde wrote:
> Prostitutes are part of society.
>
> They are friends, sisters, mothers, and daughters.
>
> You can dehumanize them all you want, they are still human beings
> who are friends to some, sisters to others, mothers to children,
> and daughters to parents.
>
No argument there. Prostitution is an easy job, short hours, good pay, easy work, no education required.
Some say, with a great deal of merit, that the traditional wife is a form of prostitution. She's a "stay at home mom"
who earns her living on her back, like other prostitutes.
Sex does not "dehumanize" women. Your denigration of women for being sexual is misguided.
Bob
Ken & Laura Chaddock
For a little perspective...there was an interesting documentary on a CBC
(Canadian Broadcasting Corp) show called "The Passionate Eye" a couple
of years ago. It was on prostitution...from the women's side. They
interviewed
a lot of people, in all about 150, over 100 of them active prostitutes.
In all of
that number there was only one woman who claimed to have been "forced"
into prostitution, all of the others were quite clear that this was their
choice.
One young woman put it quite succinctly when asked why she is a
prostitute.
Her answer was (not an exact quote but close enough) "Look, I live in a
penthouse apartment I bought my mother a new house last year. I drive a
BMW
and I spend around $300 per day...I can't sing, I can't act and a job at
MacDonald's just won't cut it...this is how I make the money to support my
life"
...Ken
Tony
>
> Prostitutes are part of society.
>
> They are friends, sisters, mothers, and daughters.
>
> You can dehumanize them all you want, they are still human beings
> who are friends to some, sisters to others, mothers to children,
> and daughters to parents.
As are the prostitutes customers; our friends, sisters, mothers,
husbands, wives, daughters, sons, humans all of them. No more or less
human than the prostitutes themselves. So, what exactly _is_ your
point?
Not to mention that you conveniently left out the fact there are male
prostitutes; husbands, brothers, and sons. Or are they not "humans" to
you? Obviously not, as they didn't even merit mention from you.
Sometimes its not _what_ you say but what you _don't_ say that reveals
your heart and mind.
You are as a crytal clear pane of glass to me.
--
Tony
Giant Attitude
> gianta...@my-deja.com (Giant Attitude) wrote in message news:<ea45e5bb.01102...@posting.google.com>...
> > chyve...@my-deja.com (Chive Mynde) wrote in message news:<ccd55c9c.01102...@posting.google.com>...
> > > Eradicate Prostitution: Arrest the Johns - Kelly Holsopple
> > >
> > > The women and
> > > girls who suffer unspeakable violence as a matter of daily life, who
> > > suffer distortions of mind and spirit beyond comprehension are our
> > > friends, our sisters, our mothers, our daughters.
> > > © 1997, Kelly Holsopple, all rights reserved
> > >
> >
> > Nope, none of these are prostitutes.
>
> Yup, all of those are prostitutes.
>
> Prostitutes are part of society.
>
> They are friends, sisters, mothers, and daughters.
No, Chive Turkey, you are absolutely wrong.
I don't have a daughter, and I don't have any female "friends".
However, my sister is most definitely not selling her body for money,
and neither is my 75 year old mother.
So prostitutes are not included in that circle of people that includes
my friends, sister, mother and daughter. But I can't speak for the
women in your life.
Chive Mynde
More nonsense from mentally-ill anti-feminist troll, "Michael Snyder".
All the prostitutes in the quoted article are friends of some,
sisters of others, mothers of children, and daughters of parents.
HTH.
John LaVoy
Chive Mynde wrote:
> Prostitutes are part of society.
>
> They are friends, sisters, mothers, and daughters.
>
> You can dehumanize them all you want, they are still human beings
> who are friends to some, sisters to others, mothers to children,
> and daughters to parents.
So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
Sky King
Bob
John LaVoy wrote:
Yes, lets not denigrate women for doing valuable work. All work ought to
be respected.
Bob
Sky King
>
>
> John LaVoy wrote:
>
> > Chive Mynde wrote:
> >
> > > Prostitutes are part of society.
> > >
> > > They are friends, sisters, mothers, and daughters.
> > >
Chuckle
sky
Chive Mynde
> In article <3BD5B776...@hotmail.com>, bobx...@hotmail.com says...
> >
> >
> > John LaVoy wrote:
> >
> > > Chive Mynde wrote:
> > >
> > > > Prostitutes are part of society.
> > > >
> > > > They are friends, sisters, mothers, and daughters.
> > > >>
> > > > who are friends to some, sisters to others, mothers to children,
> > > > and daughters to parents.
Sky agrees, yet again.
Hombre
"John LaVoy" <jla...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:3BD577A7...@pobox.upenn.edu...
|
| So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
|
We live in a society that very rarely shows any appreciation at all for men's
sexuality. What we get instead is constant mockery and derision for it. So much so
that men feel so sexually valueless as to be willing to pay hundreds of dollars to a
woman in exchange for enduring sex with him. This certainly is a significant factor
in male depression and suicide. In addition to the mockery and derision, men and boys
almost never get asked out, (especially in the early years of dating), and receive
mostly rejection when they ask a girl, often done in an insulting manner. And
finally, we've been taught that if a man has a problem it's his fault.
The solution? Society needs to start putting out positive messages about male
sexuality instead of negative ones. We need to start caring about the problems men
have instead of calling them whiners whenever they bring them up. And we especially
need women/girls to start asking men/boys out so they can feel that they are valued.
That alone would likely be enough to make a substantial drop in the number of men who
kill themselves every year. Rather then help, all whores seem to say is "What was
that about hundreds of dollars for sex?"
--
Hombre - Defender of the Universe!
cosmic_clown
Hombre wrote:
Whores will be prostitutes.. What you say has much value and the societal sexual
attitude has led the western woman down the error ridden road of the Kali snipe bitch..
Most of the good men in their 30's 40's and 50's I know have been through a divorce or
bad relationship and the choice of women is either this bitch or that bitch. Most are
not interested. These women seem to think they are special because they are a bitch.
They teach their daughters this. Funny thing is that the few women I have met who keep a
good relationship with men are referred to as whores and bitches by the whores and
bitches.
There used to be a raging rhyno around here who was the epitome of this recalcitrant
tomfoolery.
BirdTribe
>
>
> --
> Hombre - Defender of the Universe!
--
"Pop a punk for peace"
Sky King
> > In article <3BD5B776...@hotmail.com>, bobx...@hotmail.com says...
> > >
> > >
> > > John LaVoy wrote:
> > >
> > > > Chive Mynde wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Prostitutes are part of society.
> > > > >
> > > > > They are friends, sisters, mothers, and daughters.
> > > > >>
> > > > > You can dehumanize them all you want, they are still human beings
> > > > > who are friends to some, sisters to others, mothers to children,
> > > > > and daughters to parents.
>
sky
> > - Chive
>
> Science is not belief, but the will to find out.
>
Pig fucking dyke bitch Chive lies once again. YOU need a good stiff
cock shoved down your throat whore until the cum roles down your chin.
sky
White GUY from Hell
ever it takes to accomplish the goal then move on to the next sex toy
female.
"Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:auwB7.15084$CN5.1...@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net...
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Fredric L. Rice
> Men don't have sexuality we just screw what we can when we can and do what
> ever it takes to accomplish the goal then move on to the next sex toy
> female.
And we think it impresses females who'll want to fuck us if
we shoot other males, throw our shit on other males, beat
them up on the freeways if they "cut us off in traffic," or walk
on "our side of the street." And to prove how manly we are
and quite worthy of fucking we'll beat our women if they try
to leave.
--
http://www.SkepticTank.ORG/ http://www.KeithHenson.ORG/
http://www.SkepticFiles.ORG/ http://www.SlatkinFraud.COM/
http://www.RaulLopez.ORG/ http://www.RonTheNut.ORG/
http://www.BobMinton.ORG/ http://www.CrackPots.ORG/
http://www.ToryMagoo.ORG/ http://www.HolySmoke.ORG/
http://www.Xenu.NET/ http://www.Raids.ORG/ http://www.Nots.ORG/
http://www.MoneyCult.ORG/
Fredric L. Rice
> "John LaVoy" <jla...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
> news:3BD577A7...@pobox.upenn.edu...
> | So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
>
> We live in a society that very rarely shows any appreciation at all for men's
> sexuality.
What utter bullshit. Male sexual behavior is widely covered
in the news of every industrialized country on the planet in the
form of coverage of rape, gangs, "road rage," and all the
idiot, stupid things males do. Westernized socities are _flooded_
with coverage of the sexual behaviors of males. It's a good reason
to find a button to push to eradicate them all.
Bob
"Fredric L. Rice" wrote:
> It's a good reason
> to find a button to push to eradicate them all.
I can think of one or two to nominate to go first.
Bob
blujuju
"Fredric L. Rice" <FR...@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
news:3BD6EF5C...@SkepticTank.ORG...
> White GUY from Hell wrote:
>
> > Men don't have sexuality we just screw what we can when we can and do
what
> > ever it takes to accomplish the goal then move on to the next sex toy
> > female.
>
> And we think it impresses females who'll want to fuck us if
> we shoot other males, throw our shit on other males, beat
> them up on the freeways if they "cut us off in traffic," or walk
> on "our side of the street." And to prove how manly we are
> and quite worthy of fucking we'll beat our women if they try
> to leave.
To quote someone best left unnamed:
"You look stupid enough to fuck me."
/nik
--
ONO/OCC/EAC
http://blujuju.port5.com
"If we could just get everyone to close their eyes and
visualize world peace for an hour, imagine how serene and
quiet it would be until the looting started."
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~
~"John LaVoy" <jla...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
~news:3BD577A7...@pobox.upenn.edu...
~|
~| So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
~|
~
~We live in a society that very rarely shows any appreciation at all
for men's
~sexuality. What we get instead is constant mockery and derision for
it. So much so
~that men feel so sexually valueless as to be willing to pay hundreds
of dollars to a
~woman in exchange for enduring sex with him. This certainly is a
significant factor
~in male depression and suicide. In addition to the mockery and
derision, men and boys
~almost never get asked out, (especially in the early years of
dating), and receive
~mostly rejection when they ask a girl, often done in an insulting
manner. And
~finally, we've been taught that if a man has a problem it's his
fault.
IF I have a problem it IS _my_ fault. If you have one it is YOUR
fault. Perhaps people in our society should learn to start being
responsible instead of finding someone or something else upon which to
lay blame.
Or go see a doctor or a shrink and get your problem straightened out
if it is physical.
~
~The solution? Society needs to start putting out positive messages
about male
~sexuality instead of negative ones. We need to start caring about the
problems men
~have instead of calling them whiners whenever they bring them up. And
we especially
~need women/girls to start asking men/boys out so they can feel that
they are valued.
~That alone would likely be enough to make a substantial drop in the
number of men who
~kill themselves every year. Rather then help, all whores seem to say
is "What was
~that about hundreds of dollars for sex?"
I would ask a man I valued out.
Perhaps if a man/boy doesn't get asked out he really isn't that great
a catch.
And perhaps there is a reason society doesn't worship male sexuality
to the degree you would like.
Vanda
<blo...@eatcrap.com> considered running, but paused to say:
~Men don't have sexuality we just screw what we can when we can and do
what
~ever it takes to accomplish the goal then move on to the next sex toy
~female.
Well, that was kind of what I wanted to say, but i was trying reeel
hard not to be insulting.
:-)
~
~
~"Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
~news:auwB7.15084$CN5.1...@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net...
~>
~> "John LaVoy" <jla...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
~> news:3BD577A7...@pobox.upenn.edu...
~> |
~> | So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
~> |
~>
~> We live in a society that very rarely shows any appreciation at all
for
~men's
~> sexuality. What we get instead is constant mockery and derision for
it. So
~much so
~> that men feel so sexually valueless as to be willing to pay
hundreds of
~dollars to a
~> woman in exchange for enduring sex with him. This certainly is a
~significant factor
~> in male depression and suicide. In addition to the mockery and
derision,
~men and boys
~> almost never get asked out, (especially in the early years of
dating), and
~receive
~> mostly rejection when they ask a girl, often done in an insulting
manner.
~And
~> finally, we've been taught that if a man has a problem it's his
fault.
~>
~> The solution? Society needs to start putting out positive messages
about
~male
~> sexuality instead of negative ones. We need to start caring about
the
~problems men
~> have instead of calling them whiners whenever they bring them up.
And we
~especially
~> need women/girls to start asking men/boys out so they can feel that
they
~are valued.
~> That alone would likely be enough to make a substantial drop in the
number
~of men who
~> kill themselves every year. Rather then help, all whores seem to
say is
~"What was
~> that about hundreds of dollars for sex?"
~>
~> --
~> Hombre - Defender of the Universe!
~>
~>
~>
~>
~>
~
~
~
~
~-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
~http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
~-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~
~
~Hombre wrote:
~
~> "John LaVoy" <jla...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
~> news:3BD577A7...@pobox.upenn.edu...
~> |
~> | So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
~> |
~>
~> We live in a society that very rarely shows any appreciation at all
for men's
~> sexuality. What we get instead is constant mockery and derision for
it. So much so
~> that men feel so sexually valueless as to be willing to pay
hundreds of dollars to a
~> woman in exchange for enduring sex with him. This certainly is a
significant factor
~> in male depression and suicide. In addition to the mockery and
derision, men and boys
~> almost never get asked out, (especially in the early years of
dating), and receive
~> mostly rejection when they ask a girl, often done in an insulting
manner. And
~> finally, we've been taught that if a man has a problem it's his
fault.
~>
~> The solution? Society needs to start putting out positive messages
about male
~> sexuality instead of negative ones. We need to start caring about
the problems men
~> have instead of calling them whiners whenever they bring them up.
And we especially
~> need women/girls to start asking men/boys out so they can feel that
they are valued.
~> That alone would likely be enough to make a substantial drop in the
number of men who
~> kill themselves every year. Rather then help, all whores seem to
say is "What was
~> that about hundreds of dollars for sex?"
~
~Whores will be prostitutes.. What you say has much value and the
societal sexual
~attitude has led the western woman down the error ridden road of the
Kali snipe bitch..
~Most of the good men in their 30's 40's and 50's I know have been
through a divorce or
~bad relationship and the choice of women is either this bitch or that
bitch. Most are
~not interested. These women seem to think they are special because
they are a bitch.
~They teach their daughters this. Funny thing is that the few women I
have met who keep a
~good relationship with men are referred to as whores and bitches by
the whores and
~bitches.
~There used to be a raging rhyno around here who was the epitome of
this recalcitrant
~tomfoolery.
~
There are true bints who are nothing but users and luzah out there.
But if a woman refers to herself as bitch, I think most of them are
just being cute. You really need to look at the heart of a person,
any person, male or female. There are good men and good women.
I've had wonderful relationships with men. We cherish eachother in so
many ways including sexually. Hombre just can't get women and doesn't
know why. I don't know why he can't, but not all people are have
redeeming qualities.
White GUY from Hell
"Fredric L. Rice" <FR...@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
news:3BD6EF5C...@SkepticTank.ORG...
Hombre
"Vanda" <vand...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
news:2r8ettckigqv3hbmr...@4ax.com...
Yeah, whatever.
Didn't put a lot of thought into this did you? By your theory if a person has
problems because they got AIDS from being raped it's their own fault.
| Perhaps people in our society should learn to start being
| responsible instead of finding someone or something else upon which to
| lay blame.
Perhaps people in our society should learn to think instead of making stupid blanket
statements assigning blame to whoever suffers from a problem?
| Or go see a doctor or a shrink and get your problem straightened out
| if it is physical.
LOL, well since you've decided to get personal I don't have any physical problems as
far as that goes. Nor do I have any problems picking women up and in fact compared to
most men I get asked out a lot, roughly 15 times in the last year.
Still I must confess anger about the sexual devaluation of men as a group and the
whores who exploit it.
|
| ~
| ~The solution? Society needs to start putting out positive messages
| about male
| ~sexuality instead of negative ones. We need to start caring about the
| problems men
| ~have instead of calling them whiners whenever they bring them up. And
| we especially
| ~need women/girls to start asking men/boys out so they can feel that
| they are valued.
| ~That alone would likely be enough to make a substantial drop in the
| number of men who
| ~kill themselves every year. Rather then help, all whores seem to say
| is "What was
| ~that about hundreds of dollars for sex?"
|
| I would ask a man I valued out.
I noticed you didn't say "I have asked men I valued out". :-)
A lot of women can claim that they have asked men out nowadays though and some can
even claim having done so a few times. Things have been improving in that area but
there's still a long ways to go.
| Perhaps if a man/boy doesn't get asked out he really isn't that great
| a catch.
I hope he doesn't point out that I'm using an ad hominem to distract away from his
argument which I can't defeat...
I hope he doesn't point out that I'm using an ad hominem to distract away from his
argument which I can't defeat...
I hope he doesn't point out that I'm using an ad hominem to distract away from his
argument which I can't defeat...
giggle.
| And perhaps there is a reason society doesn't worship male sexuality
| to the degree you would like.
Worship? Nah, I prefer the word I chose to describe MY view on this and that is
value. So then is there a reason society doesn't value male sexuality to the degree I
would like? Of course! In fact it's the same reason why society doesn't value men as
parents to the degree I would like, men's basic human dignity to the degree I would
like, men's lives to the degree I would like, etc. The reason is sexism, since the
degree that I would like in each case is one of equality with women.
Hombre
Such as whores. Sigh, I wish men as a group valued themselves enough so there
wouldn't be a market for them.
| But if a woman refers to herself as bitch, I think most of them are
| just being cute.
While suggesting there's nothing wrong with being a bitch, (IOW being rude, cruel, or
abusive), and encouraging other women to be bitches.
| You really need to look at the heart of a person,
| any person, male or female.
Yes, and to be fair you also have to look at what shapes the hearts of people as
well.
| There are good men and good women.
| I've had wonderful relationships with men. We cherish eachother in so
| many ways including sexually. Hombre just can't get women and doesn't
| know why.
LOL. Vanda just wants to use ad hominems to distract away from real debate since she
cannot defeat my argument and expects me to not know why.
| I don't know why he can't
Nor do you have any reason to believe it.
|, but not all people are have
| redeeming qualities.
giggle, no redeeming qualities? Wow you decided that awefully fast. Did you just say
that to try and be a bitch because you think it's cute? It seems you must have really
taken my pointing out how whores exploit men personally. Are you a whore?
By the way I loved your little diatribe here. All that loving talk about men and
women cherishing each other and how we need to look into people's hearts before
judging them combined with saying a person you don't know at all has no redeeming
qualities just because you disagree with me on one issue. Not only have you
demonstrated that all that was just lip service but you've also shown your decision
making process doesn't require even attempting to address points on the other side of
a debate from you, merely attacking those who bring them up.
Hombre
| On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:51:56 -0500, "White GUY from Hell"
| <blo...@eatcrap.com> considered running, but paused to say:
|
| ~Men don't have sexuality we just screw what we can when we can and do
| what
| ~ever it takes to accomplish the goal then move on to the next sex toy
| ~female.
|
| Well, that was kind of what I wanted to say, but i was trying reeel
| hard not to be insulting.
| :-)
Your right, that would have been insulting. But considering all you did was make
insults, why not add that one too?
The truth is that no self-respecting person will "screw whatever they can whenever
they can and do whatever it takes to accomplish that goal." A person who truly values
themself will have sex only with people they are attracted to, only at times when
they are amiable to the idea, and will only have sex with partners who value them
enough consider the sexual experience they recieve full payment for the sexual
experience they give. I believe that was the point WG was sarcastically making.
So now that I've explained it to you, any ideas about how to help men as a group
value themselves more, enough so they won't pay to give whores sex?
--
Chive Mynde
"Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> | There are good men and good women.
> | I've had wonderful relationships with men. We cherish eachother in so
> | many ways including sexually. Hombre just can't get women and doesn't
> | know why.
>
> LOL. Vanda just wants to use ad hominems to distract away from real debate
> since she cannot defeat my argument and expects me to not know why.
This is quite ironic coming from "Hombre", who continues to forge
my posts and use ad hominems in order to distract away from real
debate.
Really, Hombre, you are a hypocritical anti-feminist.
- Chive
Science is not beleif, but the will to find out.
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~
~"Vanda" <vand...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
~news:kc9ett8hkse8bcrrb...@4ax.com...
~| On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:06:59 -0400, cosmic_clown
<ah...@bellsouth.net>
~| considered running, but paused to say:
~|
~| ~
~| ~
~| ~Hombre wrote:
~| ~
~| ~> "John LaVoy" <jla...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
~| ~> news:3BD577A7...@pobox.upenn.edu...
~| ~> |
~| ~> | So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
~| ~> |
~| ~>
~| ~> We live in a society that very rarely shows any appreciation at
all
~| for men's
~| ~> sexuality. What we get instead is constant mockery and derision
for
~| it. So much so
~| ~> that men feel so sexually valueless as to be willing to pay
~| hundreds of dollars to a
~| ~> woman in exchange for enduring sex with him. This certainly is a
~| significant factor
~| ~> in male depression and suicide. In addition to the mockery and
~| derision, men and boys
~| ~> almost never get asked out, (especially in the early years of
~| dating), and receive
~| ~> mostly rejection when they ask a girl, often done in an
insulting
~| manner. And
~| ~> finally, we've been taught that if a man has a problem it's his
~| fault.
~| ~>
~| ~> The solution? Society needs to start putting out positive
messages
~| about male
~| ~> sexuality instead of negative ones. We need to start caring
about
~| the problems men
~| ~> have instead of calling them whiners whenever they bring them
up.
~| And we especially
~| ~> need women/girls to start asking men/boys out so they can feel
that
~| they are valued.
~| ~> That alone would likely be enough to make a substantial drop in
the
~| number of men who
~| ~> kill themselves every year. Rather then help, all whores seem to
~| say is "What was
~| ~> that about hundreds of dollars for sex?"
~| ~
~| ~Whores will be prostitutes.. What you say has much value and the
~| societal sexual
~| ~attitude has led the western woman down the error ridden road of
the
~| Kali snipe bitch..
~| ~Most of the good men in their 30's 40's and 50's I know have been
~| through a divorce or
~| ~bad relationship and the choice of women is either this bitch or
that
~| bitch. Most are
~| ~not interested. These women seem to think they are special because
~| they are a bitch.
~| ~They teach their daughters this. Funny thing is that the few women
I
~| have met who keep a
~| ~good relationship with men are referred to as whores and bitches
by
~| the whores and
~| ~bitches.
~| ~There used to be a raging rhyno around here who was the epitome of
~| this recalcitrant
~| ~tomfoolery.
~| ~
~|
~| There are true bints who are nothing but users and luzah out there.
~
~Such as whores. Sigh, I wish men as a group valued themselves enough
so there
~wouldn't be a market for them.
~
~| But if a woman refers to herself as bitch, I think most of them are
~| just being cute.
~
~While suggesting there's nothing wrong with being a bitch, (IOW being
rude, cruel, or
~abusive), and encouraging other women to be bitches.
~
~| You really need to look at the heart of a person,
~| any person, male or female.
~
~Yes, and to be fair you also have to look at what shapes the hearts
of people as
~well.
~
~| There are good men and good women.
~| I've had wonderful relationships with men. We cherish eachother in
so
~| many ways including sexually. Hombre just can't get women and
doesn't
~| know why.
~
~LOL. Vanda just wants to use ad hominems to distract away from real
debate since she
~cannot defeat my argument and expects me to not know why.
~
~| I don't know why he can't
~
~Nor do you have any reason to believe it.
~
~|, but not all people are have
~| redeeming qualities.
~
~giggle, no redeeming qualities? Wow you decided that awefully fast.
Did you just say
~that to try and be a bitch because you think it's cute? It seems you
must have really
~taken my pointing out how whores exploit men personally. Are you a
whore?
~
~By the way I loved your little diatribe here. All that loving talk
about men and
~women cherishing each other and how we need to look into people's
hearts before
~judging them combined with saying a person you don't know at all has
no redeeming
~qualities just because you disagree with me on one issue. Not only
have you
~demonstrated that all that was just lip service but you've also shown
your decision
~making process doesn't require even attempting to address points on
the other side of
~a debate from you, merely attacking those who bring them up.
Honestly, I thought your post was whiney.
So I thought you needed a jab.
"Oh, women treat us men soooo poorly that we have to resort to
whores".
People are people.
Why do you feel bad about your sexuality?
The reason is yours.
But that shouldn't be blamed on women.
My problems are my own creation. I don't blame others especially a
group of people.
Talking of your "ad hominems" (seems these NGs have learned new big
words)...you blame females as a group for your problems and then
project your problems as if they are the problems of all males.
I know men who have been to whores and men who haven't. I've never
seen a man go to a whore unless he was either oversexed or had some
perversion he could not act out in his real life.
Men are as much victims as women are victims, so I think your original
post is shitstirrnig, prejudgediced bs.
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~
~"Vanda" <vand...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
~news:2r8ettckigqv3hbmr...@4ax.com...
~| On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:12:22 GMT, "Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com>
~| considered running
~
~Yeah, whatever.
~
~|, but paused to say:
~|
~| ~
~| ~"John LaVoy" <jla...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
~| ~news:3BD577A7...@pobox.upenn.edu...
~| ~|
~| ~| So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
~| ~|
~| ~
~| ~We live in a society that very rarely shows any appreciation at
all
~| for men's
~| ~sexuality. What we get instead is constant mockery and derision
for
~| it. So much so
~| ~that men feel so sexually valueless as to be willing to pay
hundreds
~| of dollars to a
~| ~woman in exchange for enduring sex with him. This certainly is a
~| significant factor
~| ~in male depression and suicide. In addition to the mockery and
~| derision, men and boys
~| ~almost never get asked out, (especially in the early years of
~| dating), and receive
~| ~mostly rejection when they ask a girl, often done in an insulting
~| manner. And
~| ~finally, we've been taught that if a man has a problem it's his
~| fault.
~|
~| IF I have a problem it IS _my_ fault. If you have one it is YOUR
~| fault.
~
~Didn't put a lot of thought into this did you? By your theory if a
person has
~problems because they got AIDS from being raped it's their own fault.
And that has to do with women not respecting mens sexuality how??
Well, when men start respecting raped women, I"m sure women will reach
out from the heart to raped men.
Your circumstance above is not exclusive to males.
I know women and men who care about rape victims and aids victims and
try to help them. But yes, how the victim dealsl with the situaiton
IS the fault of the victim. Should one really sit around whining and
feeling sorry for ones self or should one try to help ones self.
People do help people who reach out.
~
~| Perhaps people in our society should learn to start being
~| responsible instead of finding someone or something else upon which
to
~| lay blame.
~
~Perhaps people in our society should learn to think instead of making
stupid blanket
~statements assigning blame to whoever suffers from a problem?
~
~| Or go see a doctor or a shrink and get your problem straightened
out
~| if it is physical.
~
~LOL, well since you've decided to get personal I don't have any
physical problems as
~far as that goes. Nor do I have any problems picking women up and in
fact compared to
~most men I get asked out a lot, roughly 15 times in the last year.
~Still I must confess anger about the sexual devaluation of men as a
group and the
~whores who exploit it.
Okay...
You are angry why?
I believe the exploitation is mutual betwixt a john and a whore.
Perhaps men who go to whores feel 'dirty' and exploited, but the whore
has to live with herself and probably is only doing it for money so
she can live and support a drug habit. Where lies the humiliation??
Everyone gets the disease.
No one forces anyone to do these things, it is their own choice.
The whore's and the john's.
~
~|
~| ~
~| ~The solution? Society needs to start putting out positive messages
~| about male
~| ~sexuality instead of negative ones. We need to start caring about
the
~| problems men
~| ~have instead of calling them whiners whenever they bring them up.
And
~| we especially
~| ~need women/girls to start asking men/boys out so they can feel
that
~| they are valued.
~| ~That alone would likely be enough to make a substantial drop in
the
~| number of men who
~| ~kill themselves every year. Rather then help, all whores seem to
say
~| is "What was
~| ~that about hundreds of dollars for sex?"
~|
~| I would ask a man I valued out.
~
~I noticed you didn't say "I have asked men I valued out". :-)
~A lot of women can claim that they have asked men out nowadays though
and some can
~even claim having done so a few times. Things have been improving in
that area but
~there's still a long ways to go.
It's no biggie.
I asked my husband to marry me.
I 'would' ask a man out, but I am married.
I asked my husband to go many places with me when we were dating and
paid for them because he wasn't working and I was.
~
~| Perhaps if a man/boy doesn't get asked out he really isn't that
great
~| a catch.
~
~I hope he doesn't point out that I'm using an ad hominem to distract
away from his
~argument which I can't defeat...
Get over your use of the word "ad hominem". It is overrated and over
used in NGs and I'm really SICK of it.
AND
Yes, most guys if they are a decent catch, get snatched up quickly.
The guys I know who are in their 30s and are unmarried are so because
they have few redeming qualities. They are either terribly backwards,
odd looking, average intelligence, lacking ambition, live with
parents. And most likely all three. I know of three men off the top
of my head who meet this description.
Nice guys, but I wouldn't date them.
Or perhaps they have tempers, or peculiarities women just don't like.
Or perhaps they are homosexual and don't know it themselves.
But it has everything to do with you saying men do not get asked out
and it is not a distraction.
~I hope he doesn't point out that I'm using an ad hominem to distract
away from his
~argument which I can't defeat...
~I hope he doesn't point out that I'm using an ad hominem to distract
away from his
~argument which I can't defeat...
~giggle.
Right 'giggle'.
You are being silly.
You aren't reading and you have misunderstood. So ofcourse you have
resorted to a cliche NG defense...to say what the other person is
saying is 'ad hominem' and a diversion.
Now look who is diverting???
~
~| And perhaps there is a reason society doesn't worship male
sexuality
~| to the degree you would like.
~
~Worship? Nah, I prefer the word I chose to describe MY view on this
and that is
~value.
Well, you use value and I'll use worship.
So then is there a reason society doesn't value male sexuality to the
degree I
~would like? Of course! In fact it's the same reason why society
doesn't value men as
~parents to the degree I would like, men's basic human dignity to the
degree I would
~like, men's lives to the degree I would like, etc. The reason is
sexism, since the
~degree that I would like in each case is one of equality with women.
Oh yeah right.
And you are a victim right?
Hombre
| On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:15:31 GMT, "Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com>
| considered running, but paused to say:
<snip>
| Honestly, I thought your post was whiney.
| So I thought you needed a jab.
I can see why you would call my post whiney. It's the knee-jerk reaction programmed
into most people whenever a man complains about anything, with no consideration for
the validity of the complaint. But let's say you're right, and that I was being
whiney. Is that so unreasonable? Aren't men allowed to be a little whiney
occasionally when discussing their issues especially considering how often people
turn us off as soon as we mention them? Male sexuality has been so demonized that a
man can't lean over the crib to say hi to a strangers baby without suspicious eyes
closely watching, wondering if he's a pervert. So if a man feels a need to whine
about this once in a while I'll offer him an open ear.
| "Oh, women treat us men soooo poorly that we have to resort to
| whores".
You've changed my argument. Nowhere did I blame this all on women, nor did I suggest
that all women are to blame. And the fact that so many men are willing to pay
hundreds of dollars for one sexual encounter is telling that they are being treated
poorly.
| People are people.
| Why do you feel bad about your sexuality?
I don't. I do feel bad about how men's sexuality as a whole is treated by society
though.
| The reason is yours.
| But that shouldn't be blamed on women.
I didn't blame women. Yes, I did say that women/ girls need to start asking more but
that doesn't mean I don't know that they have less need to ask, nor that I think men
would be asking more then the women do if things were reversed.
| My problems are my own creation. I don't blame others especially a
| group of people.
| Talking of your "ad hominems" (seems these NGs have learned new big
| words)
LOL, I used the word because it correctly described what you were doing. And rather
then address whether you did that or not you used another ad hominem in insinuating I
was using a word I only learned from a NG, using a fallacy of logic in your attempt
to mock me. giggle.
|...you blame females as a group for your problems
No I don't.
| and then
| project your problems as if they are the problems of all males.
The debasement of male sexuality is a problem that effects all males.
| I know men who have been to whores and men who haven't. I've never
| seen a man go to a whore unless he was either oversexed or had some
| perversion he could not act out in his real life.
Yawn, would you like to discuss statistical sampling?
| Men are as much victims as women are victims,
and sometimes more, and sometimes less. :)
Sorry if truth spoils what you wish to believe.
|so I think your original
| post is shitstirrnig, prejudgediced bs.
And that thought is based on your own prejudice, as evidenced by the way you
interpretted a post condemning negative treatment of men as an attack on women.
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~
~"Vanda" <vand...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
~news:82oett8fg8geppjb5...@4ax.com...
~| On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:15:31 GMT, "Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com>
~| considered running, but paused to say:
~
~<snip>
~
~| Honestly, I thought your post was whiney.
~| So I thought you needed a jab.
~
~I can see why you would call my post whiney. It's the knee-jerk
reaction programmed
~into most people whenever a man complains about anything, with no
consideration for
~the validity of the complaint. But let's say you're right, and that I
was being
~whiney. Is that so unreasonable? Aren't men allowed to be a little
whiney
~occasionally when discussing their issues especially considering how
often people
~turn us off as soon as we mention them? Male sexuality has been so
demonized that a
~man can't lean over the crib to say hi to a strangers baby without
suspicious eyes
~closely watching, wondering if he's a pervert. So if a man feels a
need to whine
~about this once in a while I'll offer him an open ear.
~
~| "Oh, women treat us men soooo poorly that we have to resort to
~| whores".
~
~You've changed my argument. Nowhere did I blame this all on women,
nor did I suggest
~that all women are to blame. And the fact that so many men are
willing to pay
~hundreds of dollars for one sexual encounter is telling that they are
being treated
~poorly.
How?
You are making an assumption for which you have no proof.
~
~| People are people.
~| Why do you feel bad about your sexuality?
~
~I don't. I do feel bad about how men's sexuality as a whole is
treated by society
~though.
If a man sleeps around he is just sewing some wild oats.
A woman sleeps around, she is a whore.
I've seen it!
I've been around Frat boys and Bar guys.
~
~| The reason is yours.
~| But that shouldn't be blamed on women.
~
~I didn't blame women. Yes, I did say that women/ girls need to start
asking more but
~that doesn't mean I don't know that they have less need to ask, nor
that I think men
~would be asking more then the women do if things were reversed.
~
~| My problems are my own creation. I don't blame others especially a
~| group of people.
~| Talking of your "ad hominems" (seems these NGs have learned new big
~| words)
~
~LOL, I used the word because it correctly described what you were
doing. And rather
~then address whether you did that or not you used another ad hominem
in insinuating I
~was using a word I only learned from a NG, using a fallacy of logic
in your attempt
~to mock me. giggle.
It is classic NG.
You are trying to wriggle out of it.
I was adressing you directly.
You only thought I was using an ad hominem because you are programmed
to see things that way.
~
~|...you blame females as a group for your problems
~
~No I don't.
~
~| and then
~| project your problems as if they are the problems of all males.
~
~The debasement of male sexuality is a problem that effects all males.
PEOPLE are debased...and ONLY if they choose to be that way.
We are responsible for our own lives.
Male sexuality? Males genetically just want to reproduce, to spread
their sperms far and wide. Women can only be pregnant once a year,
pretty much, so males have had to find more places to put their sperm.
On the sexual level we are animals.
It is a fact...there is nothing wrong with it.
If you think you are debased because of your need to plant sperms
EVERYWHERE, then you are debased.
Only a man would invent a glory hole.
~
~| I know men who have been to whores and men who haven't. I've never
~| seen a man go to a whore unless he was either oversexed or had some
~| perversion he could not act out in his real life.
~
~Yawn, would you like to discuss statistical sampling?
Nope, I'm not interested a bit.
~
~| Men are as much victims as women are victims,
~
~and sometimes more, and sometimes less. :)
~Sorry if truth spoils what you wish to believe.
~
~|so I think your original
~| post is shitstirrnig, prejudgediced bs.
~
~And that thought is based on your own prejudice, as evidenced by the
way you
~interpretted a post condemning negative treatment of men as an attack
on women.
No, I condemned it for not taking responsibility for ones own self.
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~In Message-ID: <DQIB7.15505$CN5.1...@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>,
~"Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
~
~> | There are good men and good women.
~> | I've had wonderful relationships with men. We cherish eachother
in so
~> | many ways including sexually. Hombre just can't get women and
doesn't
~> | know why.
~>
~> LOL. Vanda just wants to use ad hominems to distract away from real
debate
~> since she cannot defeat my argument and expects me to not know why.
~
~This is quite ironic coming from "Hombre", who continues to forge
~my posts and use ad hominems in order to distract away from real
~debate.
~
~Really, Hombre, you are a hypocritical anti-feminist.
He is just full of self hate and can't find anyone to blame and can't
possibly blame himself.
Jaguar
>On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Vanda wrote:
> ~The debasement of male sexuality is a problem that effects all males.
> PEOPLE are debased...and ONLY if they choose to be that way.
> We are responsible for our own lives.
> Male sexuality? Males genetically just want to reproduce, to spread
> their sperms far and wide. Women can only be pregnant once a year,
> pretty much, so males have had to find more places to put their sperm.
> On the sexual level we are animals.
> It is a fact...there is nothing wrong with it.
& you'd be in error to bring 'biology as destiny' in it.
For biology shows a myriad of mating behavoir & patterns in species.
Monogamy is NOT always beneficial for the female -
whole studies have been done on many animal species, which were assumed to
be monogamous - only to find 'cheating' does occur.
With BOTH males & females.
In many species, the females strike a balance between a mate to rear the
young & going out to mate with males with more desirable genes.
So males don't have the sole claim on going out & sowing oats.
Jag
Bob
Jaguar wrote:
You are so right about men not having a monopoly on fucking around.
In one recent DNA study done in the UK of the children from "monogamous"
marriages about 25% were genetically unrelated to the "father." Despite the
mother's lies about being "monogamous" she had obviously been fucking other
men enough to get pregnant. It is also likely that more than 25% of the
"monogamous" women were also fucking other men but just didn't get preggers.
Evolutionary theory shows that monogamy is not beneficial to females. Females
of many species claim to or pretend to be monogamous, but all species females,
including human, are fucking around when the male's back is turned.
Bob
Hombre
| On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 23:40:39 GMT, "Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com>
| considered running, but paused to say:
<snip>
| ~| IF I have a problem it IS _my_ fault. If you have one it is YOUR
| ~| fault.
| ~
| ~Didn't put a lot of thought into this did you? By your theory if a
| person has
| ~problems because they got AIDS from being raped it's their own fault.
|
| And that has to do with women not respecting mens sexuality how??
It doesn't. I was disproving your claim that if a person has a problem it's their own
fault.
| Well, when men start respecting raped women, I"m sure women will reach
| out from the heart to raped men.
Wow, thanks for demonstrating your misandry.
| Your circumstance above is not exclusive to males.
giggle, I would have labelled that as an analogy but I thought doing so would insult
your intelligence since it's so obvious. But let me explain how these things work,
since many do not properly understand them. First, I didn't imply that the above
circumstance had anything to do with gender at all. I was applying your argument that
"If a person has a problem it's their fault" to a situation where a person has a
problem which was obviously not their fault as a means of disproving it. So far, I've
proven it is not a universal rule but I think my example makes it obvious that I can
provide many more similar examples.
The usual recourse for you at this point would be to attempt to find a way to show
that while not universal, it still is a general rule by defining what makes my
example an exception. However I do not believe you can come up with a reasonable way
to make my example an exception without also making men's sexuality being attacked an
exception as well, which was what you were attempting to apply this rule to in the
first place. If not, then it won't matter if it's a general rule or not because it
still doesn't impact my original argument.
| I know women and men who care about rape victims and aids victims and
| try to help them. But yes, how the victim dealsl with the situaiton
| IS the fault of the victim. Should one really sit around whining and
| feeling sorry for ones self or should one try to help ones self.
| People do help people who reach out.
Or call them whiners apparently. giggle.
| Okay...
| You are angry why?
| I believe the exploitation is mutual betwixt a john and a whore.
I disagree. I don't think being "used for sex" is being exploited. It's like being
"used for tennis" or any other fun activity.
| Perhaps men who go to whores feel 'dirty' and exploited,
Some do, and I'm sure some don't. But the point was they've been taught not to value
themselves enough to avoid contributing to their own exploitation. The way you're
phrasing it trivializes it.
|but the whore
| has to live with herself and probably is only doing it for money so
| she can live and support a drug habit.
I think you're making excuses for them just because they are almost all women. I
can't blame you though, I don't think it was intentional. It's been programmed into
most people's subconscious. Tell someone about a wife who killed her husband and
they'll immediately look for excuses for her. "Was she abused?" Then a few weeks
later tell them about a man who killed his wife and give some excuses for it. "It's a
man who killed his wife, that's all I need to hear."
|Where lies the humiliation??
I'm not suggesting that whores are the cause of the problem, only that they profit
off of it.
| Everyone gets the disease.
Assuming you're speaking figuratively about the "disease" of feeling exploited, some
of them may feel that way while gaining huge amounts of money, and some feel that way
while paying it.
| No one forces anyone to do these things, it is their own choice.
| The whore's and the john's.
Yes, it is their own choice. The johns are choosing to allow themselves to be
exploited, that's what's so sad about it.
| It's no biggie.
| I asked my husband to marry me.
Really? I think it would be the coolest thing on Earth if a woman asked me to marry
her.
| I 'would' ask a man out, but I am married.
| I asked my husband to go many places with me when we were dating and
| paid for them because he wasn't working and I was.
Well then I don't think you're part of the problem. Except for attacking those who
expose it.
| Get over your use of the word "ad hominem". It is overrated and over
| used in NGs and I'm really SICK of it.
Sorry but when you make ad hominem arguments you're going to have people call them
that. I used the term correctly to demonstrate the flaws in your original replies to
me so you really don't have any grounds to complain.
| AND
| Yes, most guys if they are a decent catch, get snatched up quickly.
| The guys I know who are in their 30s and are unmarried are so because
| they have few redeming qualities.
giggle. Well I'm not in my thirties yet, but I don't plan on getting married before
then. In fact if the bias against men in divorce court doesn't change, I won't ever
marry. And there are more and more men making the same decision every year.
| They are either terribly backwards,
IOW they don't agree with you.
| odd looking,
Odd looking people have few redeeming qualities?
|average intelligence,
giggle. How few redeeming qualities. In one area they're just average!
| lacking ambition, live with
| parents.
Translation, don't have much money.
| And most likely all three.
Let's count again and then discuss those men who have merely average intelligence
shall we? :)
| I know of three men off the top
| of my head who meet this description.
| Nice guys, but I wouldn't date them.
Well let me thank you on their behalf, because they deserve better then a woman who
looks down on them for not being rich and having been born with average intelligence.
In the other thread you claimed people should be judged by what's in their hearts.
Maybe you should take your own advice.
| Or perhaps they have tempers, or peculiarities women just don't like.
| Or perhaps they are homosexual and don't know it themselves.
| But it has everything to do with you saying men do not get asked out
| and it is not a distraction.
Your list of reasons why a woman might not find a man attractive has nothing to do
with me saying men don't get asked out enough because I never suggested that women
should ask out men they are not attracted to. IMO the main reasons women don't do the
asking more is mainly because they don't have to, and probably the second biggest
factor is old social roles.
|
| ~I hope he doesn't point out that I'm using an ad hominem to distract
| away from his
| ~argument which I can't defeat...
| ~I hope he doesn't point out that I'm using an ad hominem to distract
| away from his
| ~argument which I can't defeat...
| ~giggle.
|
| Right 'giggle'.
| You are being silly.
| You aren't reading and you have misunderstood. So ofcourse you have
| resorted to a cliche NG defense...to say what the other person is
| saying is 'ad hominem' and a diversion.
Well gee, you said that I couldn't get women, that I had no redeeming qualities, that
I'm a whiner, that I stereotype women. And then you make a statement about men who
can't get women (which you'd already labelled me as) and now you're surprised that I
interpretted it as an ad hominem! Your first posts did not address my argument in any
way. Instead they simply distracted from it by making arguments "of the person", more
commonly known as ad hominem. If you don't like that term, take it up with Aristotle
for assigning it to describe your favorite fallacious tactic.
| ~Worship? Nah, I prefer the word I chose to describe MY view on this
| and that is
| ~value.
|
| Well, you use value and I'll use worship.
|
| So then is there a reason society doesn't value male sexuality to the
| degree I
| ~would like? Of course! In fact it's the same reason why society
| doesn't value men as
| ~parents to the degree I would like, men's basic human dignity to the
| degree I would
| ~like, men's lives to the degree I would like, etc. The reason is
| sexism, since the
| ~degree that I would like in each case is one of equality with women.
|
| Oh yeah right.
| And you are a victim right?
If you're asking if I've been treated unfairly because of my gender, then yes. In
many ways. Not that you would ever bother concerning yourself with discrimination
against men.
Hombre
| On 24 Oct 2001 17:45:21 -0700, chyve...@my-deja.com (Chive Mynde)
| considered running, but paused to say:
|
| ~In Message-ID: <DQIB7.15505$CN5.1...@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>,
| ~"Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| ~
| ~> | There are good men and good women.
| ~> | I've had wonderful relationships with men. We cherish eachother
| in so
| ~> | many ways including sexually. Hombre just can't get women and
| doesn't
| ~> | know why.
| ~>
| ~> LOL. Vanda just wants to use ad hominems to distract away from real
| debate
| ~> since she cannot defeat my argument and expects me to not know why.
| ~
| ~This is quite ironic coming from "Hombre", who continues to forge
| ~my posts
You mean did it one time as an obvious gaffe. And they say feminists have no sense of
humor. :)
| and use ad hominems in order to distract away from real
| ~debate.
LOL, this coming from someone who has yet to address anyone he disagrees with in a
post without insulting them.
| ~
| ~Really, Hombre, you are a hypocritical anti-feminist.
|
| He is just full of self hate and can't find anyone to blame and can't
| possibly blame himself.
Guess what Vanda! That's nothing but an
AAAADDDD HHHOOMMMIIINNNEEENNN!!!
giggle.
Hombre
| On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 02:01:39 GMT, "Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com>
<snip>
| And the fact that so many men are
| willing to pay
| ~hundreds of dollars for one sexual encounter is telling that they are
| being treated
| ~poorly.
|
| How?
| You are making an assumption for which you have no proof.
That would be the definition of assumption yes. :-)
But you're right, I should have said it was "evidence of" instead of "telling".
Still, I think anyone who pays attention to the media portrayal of male sexuality
should easily find enough examples to make a convincing inductive argument.
| ~
| ~| People are people.
| ~| Why do you feel bad about your sexuality?
| ~
| ~I don't. I do feel bad about how men's sexuality as a whole is
| treated by society
| ~though.
|
| If a man sleeps around he is just sewing some wild oats.
| A woman sleeps around, she is a whore.
| I've seen it!
| I've been around Frat boys and Bar guys.
Obviously not recently. This double standard has been pointed out over and over again
for 30 some years, and most "frat boys" and "bar guys" don't have these views
anymore. However the double standards which favor women are largely ignored by the
media. A woman can have half her boobs hanging out and be okay but if a man looks at
them he's a pervert.
|
| ~
| ~| The reason is yours.
| ~| But that shouldn't be blamed on women.
| ~
| ~I didn't blame women. Yes, I did say that women/ girls need to start
| asking more but
| ~that doesn't mean I don't know that they have less need to ask, nor
| that I think men
| ~would be asking more then the women do if things were reversed.
| ~
| ~| My problems are my own creation. I don't blame others especially a
| ~| group of people.
| ~| Talking of your "ad hominems" (seems these NGs have learned new big
| ~| words)
| ~
| ~LOL, I used the word because it correctly described what you were
| doing. And rather
| ~then address whether you did that or not you used another ad hominem
| in insinuating I
| ~was using a word I only learned from a NG, using a fallacy of logic
| in your attempt
| ~to mock me. giggle.
|
| It is classic NG.
| You are trying to wriggle out of it.
giggle, no. Pointing out that a word is often misused on usenet in no way leads to
the conclusion that I misused it. That converse accident makes your argument here a
non sequitur. :-)
| I was adressing you directly.
| You only thought I was using an ad hominem because you are programmed
| to see things that way.
You addressing me directly instead of my argument is the definition of ad hominem you
silly goose.
| ~The debasement of male sexuality is a problem that effects all males.
|
| PEOPLE are debased
Some much moreso then others.
|...and ONLY if they choose to be that way.
Bullshit.
| We are responsible for our own lives.
We are responsible for what we do, not for what others do. Others are a part of our
own lives last I checked.
| Male sexuality? Males genetically just want to reproduce, to spread
| their sperms far and wide. Women can only be pregnant once a year,
| pretty much, so males have had to find more places to put their sperm.
| On the sexual level we are animals.
| It is a fact...
It is a converse accident. Too many men would rather be monogamous then sleep around
and too many women would rather sleep around then be monogamous for your argument to
be convincing.
|there is nothing wrong with it.
| If you think you are debased because of your need to plant sperms
| EVERYWHERE, then you are debased.
Strawman fallacy.
| Only a man would invent a glory hole.
Man hating propaganda.
| ~
| ~| I know men who have been to whores and men who haven't. I've never
| ~| seen a man go to a whore unless he was either oversexed or had some
| ~| perversion he could not act out in his real life.
| ~
| ~Yawn, would you like to discuss statistical sampling?
|
| Nope, I'm not interested a bit.
Obviously otherwise you wouldn't have written it.
|
| ~
| ~| Men are as much victims as women are victims,
| ~
| ~and sometimes more, and sometimes less. :)
| ~Sorry if truth spoils what you wish to believe.
| ~
| ~|so I think your original
| ~| post is shitstirrnig, prejudgediced bs.
| ~
| ~And that thought is based on your own prejudice, as evidenced by the
| way you
| ~interpretted a post condemning negative treatment of men as an attack
| on women.
|
| No, I condemned it for not taking responsibility for ones own self.
|
And you clearly interpretted it as me blaming women, as you said.
Chive Mynde
> "Vanda" <vand...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
> news:dfuett0b383f4kikt...@4ax.com...
> | On 24 Oct 2001 17:45:21 -0700, chyve...@my-deja.com (Chive Mynde)
> | considered running, but paused to say:
> |
> | ~In Message-ID: <DQIB7.15505$CN5.1...@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>,
> | ~"Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> | ~
> | ~> | There are good men and good women.
> | ~> | I've had wonderful relationships with men. We cherish eachother
> | in so
> | ~> | many ways including sexually. Hombre just can't get women and
> | doesn't
> | ~> | know why.
> | ~>
> | ~> LOL. Vanda just wants to use ad hominems to distract away from real
> | debate
> | ~> since she cannot defeat my argument and expects me to not know why.
> | ~
> | ~This is quite ironic coming from "Hombre", who continues to forge
> | ~my posts
>
> You mean did it one time as an obvious gaffe. And they say feminists have no sense of
> humor. :)
Well, at least you have proved that "Deborah Terreson" was lying.
Thanks.
- Chive
Science is not belief, but the will to find out.
Chive Mynde
Vanda, I think your mom's professionalism is rubbing off on you!
You have an incredible knack at getting to the kernel of truth and
stating it plainly, and matter-of-factly.
Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he simply
can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and posts
anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
- Chive
Science is not belief, but the will to find out.
Jen Larson
Vanda wrote:
> Honestly, I thought your post was whiney.
> So I thought you needed a jab.
No it wasn't.
> "Oh, women treat us men soooo poorly that we have to resort to
> whores".
You aren't really grasping the discussion, Vanda.
> People are people.
Another mystery of the universe solved.
> Why do you feel bad about your sexuality?
Because it is molded by sexists?
> The reason is yours.
It is due to long standing social sexism, he had nothing to do with
that.
> But that shouldn't be blamed on women.
He didn't he blamed sexism and rightfully so.
> My problems are my own creation. I don't blame others especially a
> group of people.
People are men and women, men and women create social standards. Social
standards that are sexist can be blamed on sexists perpetuating them
onward.
...you blame females as a group for your problems and then
> project your problems as if they are the problems of all males.
Women as a group and men as a group tend to conform to social norms.
> I know men who have been to whores and men who haven't. I've never
> seen a man go to a whore unless he was either oversexed or had some
> perversion he could not act out in his real life.
It's not about "whores" it's about sexism. Men are expected to pay for
women.
> Men are as much victims as women are victims, so I think your original
> post is shitstirrnig, prejudgediced bs.
You just don't get it do you? Despite your avoidance of the issue, it
will be addressed and eventually rectified.
Jen Larson
Chive Mynde wrote:
> Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he simply
> can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and posts
> anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
Oh bullshit. He made a valid argument which only completely insane
people would question. There is long standing traiditional sexism to
blame for men paying for sex from women. How it perpetuates is through
social convention. ONLY the questioning of it will end it. Being a woman
I have been offered money, and expensive things, and the promise of a
pipeline of resources for sex. Is it difficult to refuse such things?
Yes if you are a greedy woman, no if you are anti-sexist. I have sex
ONLY to have a mutual pleasant physical experience with a man, IMO there
is NO other reason to have sex. Sometimes I wanted to have sex with a
man who wanted to pay me in some way. Sometimes I didn't. This causes me
to call to attention the sexism of social norms to a person who expects
status quo. This is clumsy and has interferred with my ability to have a
nice time with a nice person.
Lan
> Only a man would invent a glory hole.
Oh good, at least we know you aren't an evil sexist female.
--
Kill all feminists, make them feel the pain they are responsible for creating
so that it destroys them. Stop at nothing to make every single fucking evil
sexist female feel every thing they did do, plus everything they could have
done, and added to that everything they even ever wanted to do. DESTROY THEM
ICQ: 26027485
Jennifer Larson
Lan wrote:
> Vanda <vand...@yahooo.com> wrote:
> > Only a man would invent a glory hole.
What exactly is a glory hole and what man invented it?
> Oh good, at least we know you aren't an evil sexist female.
Lan, I just heard SY for the first time last night. Not bad, freaky but
cool. Check out some techno stuff, I recommend the Orb.
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~giggle. Well I'm not in my thirties yet, but I don't plan on getting
married before
~then. In fact if the bias against men in divorce court doesn't
change, I won't ever
~marry. And there are more and more men making the same decision every
year.
Good. I hope they are not planning on having children either.
~Let's count again and then discuss those men who have merely average
intelligence
~shall we? :)
No. And you know there are nice guys who girls won't touch because
they are flawed.
And there are women as well who couldn't get a man if they gave it
away free.
I don't know why they don't get together.
~
~| I know of three men off the top
~| of my head who meet this description.
~| Nice guys, but I wouldn't date them.
~
~Well let me thank you on their behalf, because they deserve better
then a woman who
~looks down on them for not being rich and having been born with
average intelligence.
~In the other thread you claimed people should be judged by what's in
their hearts.
~Maybe you should take your own advice.
~
~| Or perhaps they have tempers, or peculiarities women just don't
like.
~| Or perhaps they are homosexual and don't know it themselves.
~| But it has everything to do with you saying men do not get asked
out
~| and it is not a distraction.
~
~Your list of reasons why a woman might not find a man attractive has
nothing to do
~with me saying men don't get asked out enough because I never
suggested that women
~should ask out men they are not attracted to. IMO the main reasons
women don't do the
~asking more is mainly because they don't have to, and probably the
second biggest
~factor is old social roles.
There are good reasons why these 'old' social roles are in place.
Lions fight for lionesses and try to win them.
Many mammals do that.
The oness is on the male to win the female.
Men 'want' to be protectors as men have even said on ARW...then they
want women to ask them out.
~
~|
~| ~I hope he doesn't point out that I'm using an ad hominem to
distract
~| away from his
~| ~argument which I can't defeat...
~| ~I hope he doesn't point out that I'm using an ad hominem to
distract
~| away from his
~| ~argument which I can't defeat...
~| ~giggle.
~|
~| Right 'giggle'.
~| You are being silly.
~| You aren't reading and you have misunderstood. So ofcourse you
have
~| resorted to a cliche NG defense...to say what the other person is
~| saying is 'ad hominem' and a diversion.
~
~Well gee, you said that I couldn't get women, that I had no redeeming
qualities, that
~I'm a whiner, that I stereotype women. And then you make a statement
about men who
~can't get women (which you'd already labelled me as) and now you're
surprised that I
~interpretted it as an ad hominem! Your first posts did not address my
argument in any
~way. Instead they simply distracted from it by making arguments "of
the person", more
~commonly known as ad hominem. If you don't like that term, take it up
with Aristotle
~for assigning it to describe your favorite fallacious tactic.
~
~
~| ~Worship? Nah, I prefer the word I chose to describe MY view on
this
~| and that is
~| ~value.
~|
~| Well, you use value and I'll use worship.
~|
~| So then is there a reason society doesn't value male sexuality to
the
~| degree I
~| ~would like? Of course! In fact it's the same reason why society
~| doesn't value men as
~| ~parents to the degree I would like, men's basic human dignity to
the
~| degree I would
~| ~like, men's lives to the degree I would like, etc. The reason is
~| sexism, since the
~| ~degree that I would like in each case is one of equality with
women.
~|
~| Oh yeah right.
~| And you are a victim right?
~
~If you're asking if I've been treated unfairly because of my gender,
then yes. In
~many ways. Not that you would ever bother concerning yourself with
discrimination
~against men.
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~
~
~>On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Vanda wrote:
~
~> ~The debasement of male sexuality is a problem that effects all
males.
~
~> PEOPLE are debased...and ONLY if they choose to be that way.
~> We are responsible for our own lives.
~> Male sexuality? Males genetically just want to reproduce, to
spread
~> their sperms far and wide. Women can only be pregnant once a year,
~> pretty much, so males have had to find more places to put their
sperm.
~> On the sexual level we are animals.
~> It is a fact...there is nothing wrong with it.
~
~& you'd be in error to bring 'biology as destiny' in it.
~
~For biology shows a myriad of mating behavoir & patterns in species.
~
~Monogamy is NOT always beneficial for the female -
~whole studies have been done on many animal species, which were
assumed to
~be monogamous - only to find 'cheating' does occur.
~With BOTH males & females.
~
~In many species, the females strike a balance between a mate to rear
the
~young & going out to mate with males with more desirable genes.
~
~So males don't have the sole claim on going out & sowing oats.
Womens bodys even become used to a man they are with more often.
And if a woman screws a man, then the next man she screws within 48
hours, his sperms get attacked.
But reasoning and roles go beyond men being mistreated in society.
They can be biological as well as ingrained for thousands of years.
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~
~"Vanda" <vand...@yahooo.com> wrote in message
~news:dfuett0b383f4kikt...@4ax.com...
~| On 24 Oct 2001 17:45:21 -0700, chyve...@my-deja.com (Chive Mynde)
~| considered running, but paused to say:
~|
~| ~In Message-ID: <DQIB7.15505$CN5.1...@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>,
~| ~"Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
~| ~
~| ~> | There are good men and good women.
~| ~> | I've had wonderful relationships with men. We cherish
eachother
~| in so
~| ~> | many ways including sexually. Hombre just can't get women and
~| doesn't
~| ~> | know why.
~| ~>
~| ~> LOL. Vanda just wants to use ad hominems to distract away from
real
~| debate
~| ~> since she cannot defeat my argument and expects me to not know
why.
~| ~
~| ~This is quite ironic coming from "Hombre", who continues to forge
~| ~my posts
~
~You mean did it one time as an obvious gaffe. And they say feminists
have no sense of
~humor. :)
~
~| and use ad hominems in order to distract away from real
~| ~debate.
~
~LOL, this coming from someone who has yet to address anyone he
disagrees with in a
~post without insulting them.
~
~| ~
~| ~Really, Hombre, you are a hypocritical anti-feminist.
~|
~| He is just full of self hate and can't find anyone to blame and
can't
~| possibly blame himself.
~
~Guess what Vanda! That's nothing but an
~AAAADDDD HHHOOMMMIIINNNEEENNN!!!
~giggle.
<phew>
you really are a giggly little boy aren't you?
Go find a prostitute and get laid, k?
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~
~
~Chive Mynde wrote:
~
~> Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he simply
~> can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and posts
~> anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
~
~Oh bullshit. He made a valid argument which only completely insane
~people would question.
It was a whiney arguement.
He wanted to blame someone for men visiting whores.
As if men in general are victims.
My point is some people are victims and some arent.
BFD.
There is self hate because he wants to lay blame.
Michael Snyder
If it's sane to blame men for prostitution, then it's equally
sane to blame women. If it's sane to say that prostitutes are
victims, then it's equally sane to say that men who pay for sex
are victims.
Silvia Sweetheart
Excuse me, but how is "Deborah Terreson" an anti-feminist? What did
she say? I must have missed that.
Shouldn't you try to kill them more with a little kindness?
Can someone please explain why these "wars" are going on?
Don't mind me, I'm just curious.
Bob
Michael Snyder wrote:
> If it's sane to blame men for prostitution, then it's equally
> sane to blame women. If it's sane to say that prostitutes are
> victims, then it's equally sane to say that men who pay for sex
> are victims.
If you follow the money, the ones who lose money are exploited. The ones
who gain money are the elxpoiters. Men are generally the ones exploited
by prostitution.
Bob
Vanda
<msn...@cygnus.com> considered running, but paused to say:
~Vanda wrote:
~>
~> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:23:58 -0400, Jen Larson <stra...@udel.edu>
~> considered running, but paused to say:
~>
~> ~
~> ~
~> ~Chive Mynde wrote:
~> ~
~> ~> Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he
simply
~> ~> can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and
posts
~> ~> anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
~> ~
~> ~Oh bullshit. He made a valid argument which only completely insane
~> ~people would question.
~>
~> It was a whiney arguement.
~> He wanted to blame someone for men visiting whores.
~> As if men in general are victims.
~> My point is some people are victims and some arent.
~> BFD.
~
~If it's sane to blame men for prostitution, then it's equally
~sane to blame women. If it's sane to say that prostitutes are
~victims, then it's equally sane to say that men who pay for sex
~are victims.
Fine.
But I think people should stop blaming and stop being victims.
People need to take responsibility for their actions.
I have alot of sympathy for a raped child...male or female...
But part of being an adult is to stop blaming your parents, teachers,
and being in control of one's own life.
Stephen Morgan
This happens in certain species of tree frog, not humans.
> But reasoning and roles go beyond men being mistreated in society.
> They can be biological as well as ingrained for thousands of years.
>
>
--
We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teacher, leave those kids alone
-- Pink Floyd
Stephen Morgan
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:23:58 -0400, Jen Larson <stra...@udel.edu>
> considered running, but paused to say:
>
> ~
> ~
> ~Chive Mynde wrote:
> ~
> ~> Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he simply
> ~> can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and posts
> ~> anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
> ~
> ~Oh bullshit. He made a valid argument which only completely insane
> ~people would question.
Are you questioning it?
> It was a whiney arguement.
It was a correct argument, whiny or not.
> He wanted to blame someone for men visiting whores.
No.
> As if men in general are victims.
They are victims of feminist oppression.
> My point is some people are victims and some arent.
> BFD.
> There is self hate because he wants to lay blame.
Why do you assume he uses whores?
Hombre
| On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:35:49 GMT, "Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com>
| considered running, but paused to say:
|
|
| ~giggle. Well I'm not in my thirties yet, but I don't plan on getting
| married before
| ~then. In fact if the bias against men in divorce court doesn't
| change, I won't ever
| ~marry. And there are more and more men making the same decision every
| year.
|
| Good. I hope they are not planning on having children either.
Yes, we need to keep the percentage of men who stand up to discrimination against
them low don't we.
|
|
| ~Let's count again and then discuss those men who have merely average
| intelligence
| ~shall we? :)
|
| No.
giggle, why not?
| And you know there are nice guys who girls won't touch because
| they are flawed.
Nice, if a man can't get girls it's because he's "flawed".
| And there are women as well who couldn't get a man if they gave it
| away free.
No woman has ever given it away for free. Every time they give someone a sexual
experience, they get a sexual experience in return. Greedy whores say that's not
enough and demand more. Self-respecting men don't give it to them.
| There are good reasons why these 'old' social roles are in place.
Well if you believe that then shut the hell up and get back in the kitchen.
| Lions fight for lionesses and try to win them.
| Many mammals do that.
| The oness is on the male to win the female.
I won't bother to point out the flaw in this because anyone who can't see it on their
own isn't intelligent enough to understand an explanation of it.
| Men 'want' to be protectors as men have even said on ARW...then they
| want women to ask them out.
So where's the irony? It's natural for anyone, (man or woman), to want to protect the
ones they care about...and yet they still want to be treated equally??
Chive Mynde
> Chive Mynde wrote:
>
> > Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he simply
> > can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and posts
> > anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
>
> Oh bullshit.
Au contraire. It's a fact.
> He made a valid argument which only completely insane
> people would question.
Interestingly, you are the "insane" person in this thread, since
the post you have replied to demonstrated Hombre's penchant
for forging and ad hominem, both demonstrated tactics of those
who are devoid of arguments.
Perhaps you need to read closer for comprehension.
HTH.
Hombre
| On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:48:20 GMT, "Hombre"
| ~| He is just full of self hate and can't find anyone to blame and
| can't
| ~| possibly blame himself.
| ~
| ~Guess what Vanda! That's nothing but an
| ~AAAADDDD HHHOOMMMIIINNNEEENNN!!!
| ~giggle.
|
| <phew>
| you really are a giggly little boy aren't you?
AD HOMINEM! giggle. Say Vanda, I was thinking about how you could prove your claim
that accusing someone of ad hominem is a "programmed" response for me. Just do a
google search for my posts containing the phrase ad hominem. Then do a search of my
total posts and calculate the percentage. You can even post the results right here in
this very thread! Boy, that's a surefire way to prove your claim. If I had such an
easy method to prove one of my claims that was in dispute, I'd definately go for it.
Oh yeah and some people might be tangentally interested in how many of those posts
containing the phrase occur in this thread, you might win some points by posting that
too. giggle :)
| Go find a prostitute and get laid, k?
Well I've already found you but if a woman feels she needs to be compensated to have
sex with me, (or for her companionship), I'm just not interested. I'd quite honestly
rather masturbate.
BrettG
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:48:20 GMT, "Hombre" <Hombr...@yahoo.com>
> considered running, but paused to say:
It's ironic that this is exactly what Vanda chose to do in this post.
Can we say "projection" children?
Throw an ad-hom and run away!
How special.
BrettG
"Silvia Sweetheart" <silv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:94c535fa.01102...@posting.google.com...
This is usenet isn't it?
> Don't mind me, I'm just curious.
Really? I had a cat like that once . . .
Stephen Morgan
> Vanda wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:23:58 -0400, Jen Larson <stra...@udel.edu>
> > considered running, but paused to say:
> >
> > ~
> > ~
> > ~Chive Mynde wrote:
> > ~
> > ~> Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he simply
> > ~> can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and posts
> > ~> anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
> > ~
> > ~Oh bullshit. He made a valid argument which only completely insane
> > ~people would question.
> >
> > It was a whiney arguement.
> > He wanted to blame someone for men visiting whores.
> > As if men in general are victims.
> > My point is some people are victims and some arent.
> > BFD.
>
> If it's sane to blame men for prostitution, then it's equally
> sane to blame women.
Blame the prostitutes and the clients, they're the ones doing it.
> If it's sane to say that prostitutes are
> victims, then it's equally sane to say that men who pay for sex
> are victims.
Neither are.
Deborah Terreson
silv...@yahoo.com (Silvia Sweetheart) wrote:
>
> Excuse me, but how is "Deborah Terreson" an anti-feminist? What did
> she say? I must have missed that.
You didn't miss anything. Least of all the faux-pas of a
shoot-first-ask-questions-later fool named Chive Mynde.
I've never said I was anything even close to being anti-feminist. Anyone
who's been out here long enough (I post to soc.men) and has taken the
time to read the posts I make (when I do make them, I've been horribly
busy as of late and don't have much time to spend online), knows this.
I do not, however, buy into every bit of fem-PC rhetoric that comes down
the pike - I've seen too much backstabbing by women myself to believe
that it's always a man's fault. This, right off the bat, gets me
attacked on a regular basis by our NG's leading ladies (who are
blissfully on vacation for awhile). So be it.
I *do* take exception of someone who posts alot (bordering on a flood!)
of uninteresting stories with no other purpose than to stir up shit.
Chive Mynde is just such a person.
True to Chive's form, I automatically am labeled a liar and an
anti-feminist for defending my friends - even the ones I disagree with -
when they were belittled. I have Chive in my killfile, and if you are
interested in having some _good_ arguments and discussions with some
really fine folks, stick it out here. Put Chive in your killfile first,
though, or you might miss the good stuff.
Deb.
>
> Shouldn't you try to kill them more with a little kindness?
>
> Can someone please explain why these "wars" are going on?
Boredom?
Deb.
Stephen Morgan
Of course. And those raped adults, they just have to stop fucking
whining and pull themselves together the winging bitches.
Jaguar
Actualy, studies have been done that show women were MORE likely to
concieve when 'cheating' with a lover.
(Something to do with the increased frequency of mating - & that they are
more likely to orgasam with a lover, which facilitates conception)
There was an interesting show on the discovery channel about human
sexuality patterns a while back & they brought this up.
So while males may well have 'killer sperm' (as that theory goes) that
attempt to immobilize or block other sperm...
what can the little swimmers do when overwhelmed?
Anyway, before I start going into anthropology & anatomy rants....
All I'll say is human's are not slaves to biology & instinct like many
animal species are.
Whe have minds, can think, see consequences.
We can choose our actions.
Honor & respect play a role in this as well, & can over ride the hormones.
>
>
>
>
Michael Snyder
When people say "stop playing the blame game", they're usually
talking to men. Feminists play this game constantly, and few
people ever challenge them on it.
Bob
Jaguar wrote:
Women are much more likely to "cheat" during ovulation than any other time due
to hormonal urges to be pregnant according to recent studies on several
continents. The probability of getting pregnant is much higher at that time.
Bob
Jaguar
>On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Hombre wrote:
> | And there are women as well who couldn't get a man if they gave it
> | away free.
>
> No woman has ever given it away for free. Every time they give someone
> a sexual experience, they get a sexual experience in return. Greedy
> whores say that's not enough and demand more.
There ARE male whores as well.
As any cruise through a red light district will show.
Sex is now a skill/comodity that can be bought & sold.
Both males & females can ply that trade.
> Self-respecting men don't give it to them.
Well, THAT sort of is the crux of the problem, isn't it?
In theory, Self respecting men (& women) don't buy sex.
however ... there IS a chunk of the population that sees nothing wrong
with it. & not just in this culture.
Jag
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~
~
~>On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Hombre wrote:
~
~> | And there are women as well who couldn't get a man if they gave
it
~> | away free.
~>
~> No woman has ever given it away for free. Every time they give
someone
~> a sexual experience, they get a sexual experience in return. Greedy
~> whores say that's not enough and demand more.
No one is ever truly magnanimous.
But there are people who are truly good and caring people.
What really bothers me, and I guess what my problem is with this whole
thread is the generalization.
If men or women turn to users and blame all the problems on lusers,
they are the ones who should be reflecting into themselves.
I know good people and bad people.
But to say that my circumstances are blameable on anyone else is
wrong. We need to take responsibility for who we are and raise our
standards.
I don't blame anyone for my failures.
I don't separate men and women.
I don't think any gender is better than the other.
And what society thinks as a whole is not important to me.
~
~There ARE male whores as well.
~As any cruise through a red light district will show.
~
~Sex is now a skill/comodity that can be bought & sold.
~Both males & females can ply that trade.
Is now?
Always has been.
It serves a purpose.
I have no problem with prostitution. Males or females.
Like with children...we have to be responsible for raising our
children, we have to be responsible for our own self esteem.
~
~> Self-respecting men don't give it to them.
~
~Well, THAT sort of is the crux of the problem, isn't it?
Right.
Okay, so why don't men respect themselves?
And why don't women respect themselves?
Funny though...most male prostitutes' customers are males as well as
the female prostitutes.
~
~In theory, Self respecting men (& women) don't buy sex.
~however ... there IS a chunk of the population that sees nothing
wrong
~with it. & not just in this culture.
Sex is an outlet.
IF an active sexual person needs an outlet it is much like an artist
needing an outlet.
What should we do?
Repress?
Or we could have sex with a whore, only harm ourself and the whore.
Or we can rape.
The whole point almost seems mute to me.
No one is going to eliminate prostitution. And it has not alot to do
with what society creates in us.
Hombre
"Jaguar" <jag...@Radix.Net> wrote in message
news:Pine.SV4.3.96.101102...@saltmine.radix.net...
|
|
| >On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Hombre wrote:
|
| > | And there are women as well who couldn't get a man if they gave it
| > | away free.
| >
| > No woman has ever given it away for free. Every time they give someone
| > a sexual experience, they get a sexual experience in return. Greedy
| > whores say that's not enough and demand more.
|
| There ARE male whores as well.
Yep, and they exploit men too.
| As any cruise through a red light district will show.
I wouldn't know. Minnesota whores don't really streetwalk.
| Sex is now a skill/comodity that can be bought & sold.
| Both males & females can ply that trade.
|
| > Self-respecting men don't give it to them.
|
| Well, THAT sort of is the crux of the problem, isn't it?
As I've been saying all along. So as a men's rights activist I went further and asked
the question "Why don't men respect their sexuality?". The answer I came up with was
that it was due to all the sexually shaming messages they get from society, combined
with the rarity of women approaching them with interest as a potential lover (IE,
asking them for dates). What answer have you got?
|
| In theory, Self respecting men (& women) don't buy sex.
You could say, "In theory, self respecting men (&women) don't ------" and fill in the
blank with any action that is an indicator of not respecting oneself. It's biased
language.
| however ... there IS a chunk of the population that sees nothing wrong
| with it. & not just in this culture.
Argumentum ad populum fallacy.
|
| Jag
Chive Mynde
Where's your evidence, Michael?
Oh, that's right, Michael Snyder has never once substantiated his
claims -- ever.
In fact, what Michael Snyder does, is blame feminists for his own
failings, by fabricating as many lies as he can.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Jen Larson
Vanda wrote:
>
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:23:58 -0400, Jen Larson <stra...@udel.edu>
> considered running, but paused to say:
>
> ~
> ~
> ~Chive Mynde wrote:
> ~
> ~> Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he simply
> ~> can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and posts
> ~> anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
> ~
> ~Oh bullshit. He made a valid argument which only completely insane
> ~people would question.
>
> It was a whiney arguement.
thanks for that emotional value weight!
> He wanted to blame someone for men visiting whores.
Nooo.
> As if men in general are victims.
They are, in general in this area, or do you like getting paid for
pussy.
> My point is some people are victims and some arent.
My point is that sexism disadvantages men
> BFD.
BFD to women then.
> There is self hate because he wants to lay blame.
No.
Jen Larson
Perhaps I don't like being offered "things" for having sex. Perhaps I
don't like to feel like a whore, perhaps I don't like being a pussy for
$$ because most women are happy with the status quo sexism in
traditional dating.
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~
~> BFD.
~
~BFD to women then.
That's right!
Stop being wimps and grow a spine.
Don't blame others for your problems.
Stop whining and looking for sympathy.
Grow up and stop blaming your parents for ruining your life.
(Of course I mean people in general here, no you, Jen, specifically)
It is sick.
Everyone's on the friggin' psychiatrist couch.
They are looking for fulfillment externally and it isn't there!
Vanda
Morgan) considered running, but paused to say:
~
~It was a correct argument, whiny or not.
How so?
~
~> He wanted to blame someone for men visiting whores.
~
~No.
Yes, and so do you because you say below men are victims.
That is blaming others for yours (or someone else's) problems.
~
~> As if men in general are victims.
~
~They are victims of feminist oppression.
<whine>
Any person educated in the field of psychology will tell you that one
is a victim if one thinks of one's self as a victim.
EVEN rape victims.
I have read text book examples of victims of crimes who do not let
themselves fall into the role of victim and instead use the experience
to change things and help others.
IF people think of themselves as victims they are doing nothing more
than GIVING others control over them.
It's stupid.
~
~> My point is some people are victims and some arent.
~> BFD.
~> There is self hate because he wants to lay blame.
~
~Why do you assume he uses whores?
Dumb question as I never said he did.
Vanda
Morgan) considered running, but paused to say:
~In alt.feminism, Vanda wrote:
~> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:45:51 -0700, Michael Snyder
~> <msn...@cygnus.com> considered running, but paused to say:
~>
~> ~Vanda wrote:
~> ~>
~> ~> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:23:58 -0400, Jen Larson
<stra...@udel.edu>
~> ~> considered running, but paused to say:
~> ~>
~> ~> ~
~> ~> ~
~> ~> ~Chive Mynde wrote:
~> ~> ~
~> ~> ~> Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he
~> simply
~> ~> ~> can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and
~> posts
~> ~> ~> anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
~> ~> ~
~> ~> ~Oh bullshit. He made a valid argument which only completely
insane
~> ~> ~people would question.
~> ~>
~> ~> It was a whiney arguement.
~> ~> He wanted to blame someone for men visiting whores.
~> ~> As if men in general are victims.
~> ~> My point is some people are victims and some arent.
~> ~> BFD.
~> ~
~> ~If it's sane to blame men for prostitution, then it's equally
~> ~sane to blame women. If it's sane to say that prostitutes are
~> ~victims, then it's equally sane to say that men who pay for sex
~> ~are victims.
~>
~> Fine.
~> But I think people should stop blaming and stop being victims.
~> People need to take responsibility for their actions.
~> I have alot of sympathy for a raped child...male or female...
~> But part of being an adult is to stop blaming your parents,
teachers,
~> and being in control of one's own life.
~
~Of course. And those raped adults, they just have to stop fucking
~whining and pull themselves together the winging bitches.
I have sympathy for a rape victim...but yes...they can choose the role
of victim or use the situation to empower themselves and help others.
Simply...people JUST want attention and when they whine about how
everyone has hurt them or some injustice, they are just looking for
external validation. One can only heal ones' self. You think you are
a victim, you are giving away power. You think you are strong you are
empowering yourself.
Vanda
<msn...@redhat.com> considered running, but paused to say:
~Vanda wrote in message ...
~>On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:45:51 -0700, Michael Snyder
~><msn...@cygnus.com> considered running, but paused to say:
~>
~>~Vanda wrote:
~>~>
~>~> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:23:58 -0400, Jen Larson
<stra...@udel.edu>
~>~> considered running, but paused to say:
~>~>
~>~> ~
~>~> ~
~>~> ~Chive Mynde wrote:
~>~> ~
~>~> ~> Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he
~>simply
~>~> ~> can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and
~>posts
~>~> ~> anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
~>~> ~
~>~> ~Oh bullshit. He made a valid argument which only completely
insane
~>~> ~people would question.
~>~>
~>~> It was a whiney arguement.
~>~> He wanted to blame someone for men visiting whores.
~>~> As if men in general are victims.
~>~> My point is some people are victims and some arent.
~>~> BFD.
~>~
~>~If it's sane to blame men for prostitution, then it's equally
~>~sane to blame women. If it's sane to say that prostitutes are
~>~victims, then it's equally sane to say that men who pay for sex
~>~are victims.
~>
~>Fine.
~>But I think people should stop blaming and stop being victims.
~>People need to take responsibility for their actions.
~>I have alot of sympathy for a raped child...male or female...
~>But part of being an adult is to stop blaming your parents,
teachers,
~>and being in control of one's own life.
~
~When people say "stop playing the blame game", they're usually
~talking to men. Feminists play this game constantly, and few
~people ever challenge them on it.
I don't talk in terms of males and females.
I have a whiney bitch aunt who is using air another person could be
breathing.
She blames EVERYONE!
She is in the forefront of my mind.
Next, there is my brother.
But these people are classic sociopaths...self destructive, they don't
think rules appy to them.
PEOPLE in general are whiney brats.
They need to stop splitting hairs about the many ways everyone in
their life has treated them unfairly.
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~"Michael Snyder" <msn...@redhat.com> wrote in message
news:<Am4C7.308$cF.5...@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net>...
~> Vanda wrote in message ...
~> >On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:45:51 -0700, Michael Snyder
~> ><msn...@cygnus.com> considered running, but paused to say:
~> >
~> >~Vanda wrote:
~> >~>
~> >~> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:23:58 -0400, Jen Larson
<stra...@udel.edu>
~> >~> considered running, but paused to say:
~> >~>
~> >~> ~
~> >~> ~
~> >~> ~Chive Mynde wrote:
~> >~> ~
~> >~> ~> Yes, I concur. Hombre is indeed, full of self-hate and he
~> >simply
~> >~> ~> can't find anyone to blame, which is why he blames women and
~> >posts
~> >~> ~> anti-feminist rhetoric to soc.men and alt.feminism.
~> >~> ~
~> >~> ~Oh bullshit. He made a valid argument which only completely
insane
~> >~> ~people would question.
~> >~>
~> >~> It was a whiney arguement.
~> >~> He wanted to blame someone for men visiting whores.
~> >~> As if men in general are victims.
~> >~> My point is some people are victims and some arent.
~> >~> BFD.
~> >~
~> >~If it's sane to blame men for prostitution, then it's equally
~> >~sane to blame women. If it's sane to say that prostitutes are
~> >~victims, then it's equally sane to say that men who pay for sex
~> >~are victims.
~> >
~> >Fine.
~> >But I think people should stop blaming and stop being victims.
~> >People need to take responsibility for their actions.
~> >I have alot of sympathy for a raped child...male or female...
~> >But part of being an adult is to stop blaming your parents,
teachers,
~> >and being in control of one's own life.
~>
~> When people say "stop playing the blame game", they're usually
~> talking to men.
~
~Where's your evidence, Michael?
~
~Oh, that's right, Michael Snyder has never once substantiated his
~claims -- ever.
~
~In fact, what Michael Snyder does, is blame feminists for his own
~failings, by fabricating as many lies as he can.
~
~Thanks for clearing that up.
Actually, Michael Snyder did post some good articles on the payrate
for women v. men.
Parg2000
>From: John LaVoy jla...@pobox.upenn.edu
>Date: 10/23/01 6:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3BD577A7...@pobox.upenn.edu>
>
>
>
>Chive Mynde wrote:
>
>> Prostitutes are part of society.
>>
>> They are friends, sisters, mothers, and daughters.
>>
>> You can dehumanize them all you want, they are still human beings
>> who are friends to some, sisters to others, mothers to children,
>> and daughters to parents.
>
>So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
{Parg} I'd like to address your suggestion on two levels. First, since
prostitution is still a criminal activity and since the cops are arresting
prostitutes, it makes more sense to arrest the other culpable person involved
in a crime, the johns. Secondly, I'm all for the decriminalization of
prostitution, but if we do that, we still have to address the sickness involved
in reducing a woman to an object you can buy or rent for sex. Because
prostitution is popular with men, men don't want to look at that right in the
eyes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Stephen Morgan
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:22:04 GMT, ncav...@crosswinds.net (Stephen
> Morgan) considered running, but paused to say:
>
>
> ~
> ~It was a correct argument, whiny or not.
>
> How so?
>
> ~
> ~> He wanted to blame someone for men visiting whores.
> ~
> ~No.
>
> Yes, and so do you because you say below men are victims.
> That is blaming others for yours (or someone else's) problems.
That depends if you consider oppression a problem.
> ~> As if men in general are victims.
> ~
> ~They are victims of feminist oppression.
>
> <whine>
> Any person educated in the field of psychology will tell you that one
> is a victim if one thinks of one's self as a victim.
And if you're a victim and you consider yourself a victor? Predictably
these psychologists are full of it.
> EVEN rape victims.
Then the whinging bitches should shut the fuck up.
> I have read text book examples of victims of crimes who do not let
> themselves fall into the role of victim and instead use the experience
> to change things and help others.
> IF people think of themselves as victims they are doing nothing more
> than GIVING others control over them.
Being a victim is nothing to do with giving control to other people.
> It's stupid.
> ~
> ~> My point is some people are victims and some arent.
> ~> BFD.
> ~> There is self hate because he wants to lay blame.
> ~
> ~Why do you assume he uses whores?
>
> Dumb question as I never said he did.
You did.
Stephen Morgan
Certainly. Walking down a dalk alley is just asking for it.
> or use the situation to empower themselves and help others.
Excuse me while I throw up.
> Simply...people JUST want attention and when they whine about how
> everyone has hurt them or some injustice, they are just looking for
> external validation.
They're complaining, it's a natural thing to do when there's a problem.
The poor of 1830 were victims of oppression.
> One can only heal ones' self.
One cannot heal oneself, one can delude oneself.
> You think you are
> a victim, you are giving away power. You think you are strong you are
> empowering yourself.
Bollocks. If you are aware of your status as a victim you can do
something to wrest power from the grasp of your oppressive overlords. On
the other hand if you consider yourself "empowered" you should be
disemboweled.
Jennifer Larson
Vanda wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:01:10 -0400, Jen Larson <stra...@udel.edu>
> considered running, but paused to say:
> ~> BFD.
> ~BFD to women then.
> That's right!
> Stop being wimps and grow a spine.
> Don't blame others for your problems.
> Stop whining and looking for sympathy.
> Grow up and stop blaming your parents for ruining your life.
> (Of course I mean people in general here, no you, Jen, specifically)
I am not "blaming" anybody for sexism existing, I am blaming people who
perpetuate it. I blame women who expect men to pay for thier company for
being sexist users. They unbalance the rectification of sexism against
women. Women taking a-d-v-a-n-t-a-g-e of social sexism in thier favor
can and should be blamed for thier actions as much as a man beating his
wife should be blamed for his. Thier behavior effects ME and my
relationships with men. Mkay?
> It is sick.
> Everyone's on the friggin' psychiatrist couch.
> They are looking for fulfillment externally and it isn't there!
? What the fuck are you talking about now ?
Ken & Laura Chaddock
> >Subject: Re: Eradicate Prostitution: Arrest the Johns - Kelly Holsopple
> >From: John LaVoy jla...@pobox.upenn.edu
>
> >So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
>
> {Parg} I'd like to address your suggestion on two levels. First, since
> prostitution is still a criminal activity and since the cops are arresting
> prostitutes, it makes more sense to arrest the other culpable person involved
> in a crime, the johns.
I agree that if a certain activity is "illegal" then all participants should be
targeted. In Canada, prostitution itself isn't illegal but almost every action
surrounding it is, for example, Communication for the Purpose of Prostitution
*IS* illegal. In Canada we *DO* target johns though there was *quite*
an out cry from feminist groups a year or so ago when three women were
arrested and charged with "Communication for the Purpose of Prostitution"
for trying to pick up a male hooker who turned out to be an undercover cop
(seems feminists think it's just ducky when male johns are charged but not so
great when female "janes" are equally targeted...)
> Secondly, I'm all for the decriminalization of prostitution, but if we do that,
> we still have to address the sickness involved in reducing a woman to an
> object you can buy or rent for sex. Because prostitution is popular with men,
> men don't want to look at that right in the eyes.
A man seeking sex from a prostitute does so for many reasons but I
doubt that objectification of her is far up on the agenda for most. I think
you will find that most men seek the services of a *willing* prostitute for
reasons unencumbered of sexual gratification...it's as simple as that...I
understand that you are probably disgusted by the thought that a man
could ever get sex *without* being somehow obligated to the woman
but that's *YOUR* problem, it's certainly not the problem of the
prostitute who is out to exploit sexual desires to her/his financial gain...
...Ken
Sky King
@cs.com says...
out the men no matter where the men go and have been doing it forever.
They did it in the Old West when they went to the gold fields.
How do you think we got the word Hooker? It was a name used to identify
the Whores that followed Hooker's Army. chuckle
sky
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Hombre
disease-stricken, beaten, raped, taken advantage of, and exploited by dem evil min,
who should be arrested for these atrocities they've committed against women. A few
people objected stating their belief that prostitution doesn't hurt anyone and should
be legal. It is interesting to note that Vanda did not feel incensed at this point
and didn't call anyone a whiner.
Then I posted in this thread, saying that yes there is a problem, but it has nothing
to do with the make believe stuff about how horrible the whores have it. To restate
my position, the problem is that men are shamed for their sexuality by society which
leaves many men feeling unwanted and undesired, (not to mention that most men
probably don't even know what it means to feel sexy), and whores exploit this.
Certainly feeling undesired is a significant factor in depression, and it's probable
that the shaming and demonizing of male sexuality is a large part of the reason why
men are 5 times more likely to kill themselves then women. This is further evidenced
by the fact that boys and girls who have yet to reach the age where they begin
wanting to be sexually desired kill themselves at approximately the same rate. Rather
then playing hard to get, charging men for sex, dates, etc., and viewing sex as
something they give men, women should ask men out, not expect to be paid for anything
they wouldn't expect a female friend to pay them for, and view sex as a wonderful
shared experience that it would be absurd to say someone owes another for.
Fortunately, more and more women are doing exactly that lately and things are
starting to improve in this area. I look forward to the day when most women look at
saying a man should pay them to go the movies with them the same way as saying a
person should pay another to be thier best friend. But there are large sections of
society that seems to be opposing it, such as those who scream whenever anyone
suggests a whore exploits men, (or whenever any other problem men faced is
mentioned), cosmetics companies which try to isolate male consumers, department
stores and clothing designers that fail to grasp the concept that men's clothes can
be designed to be sexy, feminist organizations which engage in fear-mongering of
men's sexuality, homophobic men, staunch traditionalists, and others.
Vanda made the comparison between sex and art and said that it should not be
repressed. I would go even further then that and say that sex is the art of life
itself and to repress expressions of sex is to repress expressions of being alive.
How much respect can an artist have for his art if he feels it is so valueless he
must pay others to view it? How much respect can men as a group have for their
sexuality when there exists a market by which whores and strippers become rich? Very
little IMO, and I think it's time to change the sexist messages in society which
cause this.
I believe Margaret Mead was right on the money when she said "We must recognize that
beneath the superficial
classifications of sex and race the same potentialities
exist, recurring generation after generation, only to
perish because society has no place for them." Things are going to change because of
people like myself bringing up the issue and promoting change, and men have already
come a long way from the day when doing anything more to enhance his appearance then
shaving would get a man labelled gay. Things seem to have progressed further in this
regard in Japan then anywhere else, and here's a preview of what's to come as the
definition of masculinity becomes less restrained.
http://my.dreamwiz.com/ihashi/frame1.htm
By the way I encourage anyone who's read through these posts and is considering the
weight of them to take note of the fact that the arguments against my original post
were...
1. A bunch of ad hominems, mainly saying I was whining.
2. It's the old social role and there's a reason for it.
3. Animals do things this way too.
4. It's biological.
In short the same arguments that were made against women entering the workforce. Do
you agree with those arguments?
I'm done in this thread now as I think my case can stand on it's own merit. Vanda and
Chyve can convince people that I'm a 50 year old virgin who's yet to move out of his
parent's house for all I care, but I've said all I have to say about this subject,
and will let the readers make up their own minds about whether or not it has any
validity.
John LaVoy
Parg2000 wrote:
>
> >Chive Mynde wrote:
> >
> >> Prostitutes are part of society.
> >>
> >> They are friends, sisters, mothers, and daughters.
> >>
> >> You can dehumanize them all you want, they are still human beings
> >> who are friends to some, sisters to others, mothers to children,
> >> and daughters to parents.
> >
> >So why not let them do their jobs and get on with their lives?
>
> {Parg} I'd like to address your suggestion on two levels. First, since
> prostitution is still a criminal activity and since the cops are arresting
> prostitutes, it makes more sense to arrest the other culpable person involved
> in a crime, the johns.
"More" sense? There is at least some rationale for suggesting that it makes as
much sense, but nothing else.
> Secondly, I'm all for the decriminalization of
> prostitution, but if we do that, we still have to address the sickness involved
> in reducing a woman to an object you can buy or rent for sex. Because
> prostitution is popular with men, men don't want to look at that right in the
> eyes.
I really can't decipher what you are saying. Prostitution is not something men do
to women, as has been shown time and again. Prostitution is a choice women make.
There is no more sickness in utilizing a prostitute than there is in being one.
Women are selling a service they provide with their bodies: men are buying it. It
is no different than men selling their physical labor and some business purchasing
that service.
Vanda
considered running, but paused to say:
~This thread began when Chyve posted an article about how prostitutes
are homeless,
~disease-stricken, beaten, raped, taken advantage of, and exploited by
dem evil min,
~who should be arrested for these atrocities they've committed against
women. A few
~people objected stating their belief that prostitution doesn't hurt
anyone and should
~be legal. It is interesting to note that Vanda did not feel incensed
at this point
~and didn't call anyone a whiner.
Prostitution hurts all involved. And yes it should be legal.
Why should I be incensed?
I don't get incensed over peoples opinions.
~
~Then I posted in this thread, saying that yes there is a problem, but
it has nothing
~to do with the make believe stuff about how horrible the whores have
it.
Oh, right.
Make believe.
Yes, whores are living the good life.
They are not targets of violence and abuse at all.
Boy...you have some serious anger issues to work out.
To restate
~my position, the problem is that men are shamed for their sexuality
by society which
~leaves many men feeling unwanted and undesired, (not to mention that
most men
~probably don't even know what it means to feel sexy), and whores
exploit this.
Oh those shrewd, meenie weenie whores. They are sooo devious and
strong that the poor widdle weak and fragile boys fall prey.
And do tell me...how does the pimp figure into all of this???
~Certainly feeling undesired is a significant factor in depression,
Fear manifests itself in two ways...one is anger/rage and the other is
depression.
'undesireable' falls a long way down the chain.
One fears first.
Unless chemical in nature, depression is angers brother and is caused
at its heart by fear.
Study some...read...take a psychology course.
and it's probable
~that the shaming and demonizing of male sexuality is a large part of
the reason why
~men are 5 times more likely to kill themselves then women.
And you find these statistics where????
Please, post a link. I really would be interested in seeing this
research. Thank you.
This is further evidenced
~by the fact that boys and girls who have yet to reach the age where
they begin
~wanting to be sexually desired kill themselves at approximately the
same rate. Rather
~then playing hard to get, charging men for sex, dates, etc., and
viewing sex as
~something they give men, women should ask men out, not expect to be
paid for anything
~they wouldn't expect a female friend to pay them for, and view sex as
a wonderful
~shared experience that it would be absurd to say someone owes another
for.
What is wrong with playing hard to get?
Why don't you men play hard to get?
And if any male is not in agreement with what the female with whom he
is involved is asking/demanding/requiring of him, then he can walk
away.
I have walked away from relationships I've viewed as demeaning.
People are in charge of their own lives.
You lay down with dogs you get up with fleas.
You want to blame the dog for the fleas, go right ahead, but your
blame is misplaced.
~
~Fortunately, more and more women are doing exactly that lately and
things are
~starting to improve in this area. I look forward to the day when most
women look at
~saying a man should pay them to go the movies with them the same way
as saying a
~person should pay another to be thier best friend.
I like to be fawned over by my male counterparts. I like jewelry,
dinners, artwork, trips.
If a man is not willing to do these things for me, he can hit the
highway.
I do things for and buy things for people I love, be they close
girlfriends, my husband, my daughter. In my heart there is something
which makes me want to give to people I love. I see something and it
reminds me the my beloved people and I buy it for them. I adorn my
friends with all sorts of goodies and trinkets and food and drink. It
empowers them.
If a man does not feel this way toward me as well, I do not want him.
Call me a whore, but I don't want an indifferent slob.
But there are large sections of
~society that seems to be opposing it, such as those who scream
whenever anyone
~suggests a whore exploits men, (or whenever any other problem men
faced is
~mentioned), cosmetics companies which try to isolate male consumers,
Whatever are you saying?
Cosmetic companies insult women.
They tell us we are not good enough and have to use make up to make us
socially acceptable.
I do not buy them.
I am stronger than to let some advertising company dictate to me how I
should think.
Sorry you are a victim.
department
~stores and clothing designers that fail to grasp the concept that
men's clothes can
~be designed to be sexy,
Sexy men's clothes? Try www.undergear.com . I love sexy clothes on
men. I can find them, even here in the podunk town where I live.
feminist organizations which engage in fear-mongering of
~men's sexuality, homophobic men, staunch traditionalists, and others.
~
~Vanda made the comparison between sex and art and said that it should
not be
~repressed. I would go even further then that and say that sex is the
art of life
~itself and to repress expressions of sex is to repress expressions of
being alive.
As any artist will tell you, it is not possible to repress one's art.
Take away my canvas and I will paint in the sand.
Creativity, whether anyone likes what I do or not, oozes from my pores
almost incontrollably.
~How much respect can an artist have for his art if he feels it is so
valueless he
~must pay others to view it?
But sometimes artist do pay.
There are often submission fees.
I paid $25 this summer to submit 4 photographs to an art show.
I give away my art all the time.
It has no bearing on whether I respect myself as an artist or not.
Hell, sometimes I think my art completely sucks.
Other times I am delighted with it.
But you see, it is what I think and not what others think.
I know others actually like my artwork. But that really means so
little to me...it is more like a temporary high when I am
complimented.
What sticks and matters is what I think.
How much respect can men as a group have for their
~sexuality when there exists a market by which whores and strippers
become rich? Very
~little IMO, and I think it's time to change the sexist messages in
society which
~cause this.
Pimps get rich.
Very few whores get rich.
And the strippers who get rich are also few in comparison.
Just going into the 'Show N Tail" you will see that the women in there
are skanky trailer trash who are just trying to keep their trailer
from being repossess and their babies in diapers.
~
~I believe Margaret Mead was right on the money when she said "We must
recognize that
~beneath the superficial
~classifications of sex and race the same potentialities
~exist, recurring generation after generation, only to
~perish because society has no place for them." Things are going to
change because of
~people like myself bringing up the issue and promoting change, and
men have already
~come a long way from the day when doing anything more to enhance his
appearance then
~shaving would get a man labelled gay. Things seem to have progressed
further in this
~regard in Japan then anywhere else, and here's a preview of what's to
come as the
~definition of masculinity becomes less restrained.
~http://my.dreamwiz.com/ihashi/frame1.htm
Well, hell.
I am all for peoples freedom to do whatever they want.
I've always encouraged my male friends to let loose.
I've put eyeliner on them.
I've dressed them.
My husband recently cut hair which was down his back and his
fingernails were 2 inches long.
You can't blame women for repressing men in this case. Most mothers
are accused of turning their sons into homosexuals. Whatever. I have
no problem with homosexuals or heterosexuals.
I have a problem with people who refuse to try and keep an open mind.
~
~By the way I encourage anyone who's read through these posts and is
considering the
~weight of them to take note of the fact that the arguments against my
original post
~were...
~
~1. A bunch of ad hominems, mainly saying I was whining.
You were whining.
But that wasn't my argument.
My argument is that you are looking to blame others.
And people should accept responsibility for their own lives.
~2. It's the old social role and there's a reason for it.
That wasn't my arguement.
I have not a problem with change.
~3. Animals do things this way too.
~4. It's biological.
And you debunk these why?
~
~In short the same arguments that were made against women entering the
workforce. Do
~you agree with those arguments?
No they weren't.
At least women were whining about their situation. They were being
responsible for their own actions.
It had nothing to do with what animals do.
And I never agreed about roles.
So your statement is in essence a non sequitor.
~
~I'm done in this thread now as I think my case can stand on it's own
merit.
Nah...it can't.
And I notice you didn't believe it could either by virtue of your use
of the word 'think'. You didn't 'know'.
Vanda and
~Chyve can convince people that I'm a 50 year old virgin who's yet to
move out of his
~parent's house for all I care,
Honey, you aren't wise enough to be 50.
You are a mere child with racing hormones.
but I've said all I have to say about this subject,
~and will let the readers make up their own minds about whether or not
it has any
~validity.
Ah, good.
No more from you.
Vanda
<stra...@udel.edu> considered running, but paused to say:
~
~
~Vanda wrote:
~
~> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:01:10 -0400, Jen Larson <stra...@udel.edu>
~> considered running, but paused to say:
~
~
~> ~> BFD.
~
~> ~BFD to women then.
~
~> That's right!
~> Stop being wimps and grow a spine.
~> Don't blame others for your problems.
~> Stop whining and looking for sympathy.
~> Grow up and stop blaming your parents for ruining your life.
~> (Of course I mean people in general here, no you, Jen,
specifically)
~
~I am not "blaming" anybody for sexism existing, I am blaming people
who
~perpetuate it. I blame women who expect men to pay for thier company
for
~being sexist users. They unbalance the rectification of sexism
against
~women. Women taking a-d-v-a-n-t-a-g-e of social sexism in thier favor
~can and should be blamed for thier actions as much as a man beating
his
~wife should be blamed for his. Thier behavior effects ME and my
~relationships with men. Mkay?
Only because you let it affect you.
I think my man, if he cares about me, would want to give me things, do
things for me, treat me to trips or dinners and not just fuck me.
I know when I see something which reminds me of someone I love I want
to adorn him/her with that thing. I love to give to those I love.
I believe the sharing of gifts and kindnesses shows where ones heart
is.
When I love someone I want to give that person everything, I'm almost
obsessed, and I actually have to hold back.
I want someone who feels about me as I do about them.
My husband makes me gorgeous furniture because he loves me.
My daughter brings me drawings, wild flowers, and cute little
tchotchkes because she loves me, my cat brings me all sorts of prey,
and my best friends send me care packages all the time.
I do not know of a single female who requires any relationship to be
all one way.
If I felt so little for someone I would not even date the person.
Actually, I don't know of any one sided relationships.
AND, furthermore, IF a man is so infatuated with a woman simply
because of her looks or because he wants sex, that he lets her treat
him that way, then he should be ashamed. He is demeaning his own sex.
Find a decent woman!!
~
~> It is sick.
~> Everyone's on the friggin' psychiatrist couch.
~> They are looking for fulfillment externally and it isn't there!
~
~
~? What the fuck are you talking about now ?
That shrinks get rich because people are wimps.
The rest is the spiritual dogma I believe...That one finds one's
happiness inside and they have power within them which should be
tapped.
One does not find happiness externally and should not rely on others
to make them happy.
No one else is responsible for your state of mind except you.
Jaguar
>On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Hombre wrote:
> | > No woman has ever given it away for free. Every time they give someone
> | > a sexual experience, they get a sexual experience in return. Greedy
> | > whores say that's not enough and demand more.
> |
> | There ARE male whores as well.
>
> Yep, and they exploit men too.
Is buying a product/skill exploitation?
No one is forcing them to hire a person to have sex.
> | As any cruise through a red light district will show.
>
> I wouldn't know. Minnesota whores don't really streetwalk.
Too darn cold, I would imagine.
> | Sex is now a skill/comodity that can be bought & sold.
> | Both males & females can ply that trade.
> |
> | > Self-respecting men don't give it to them.
> |
> | Well, THAT sort of is the crux of the problem, isn't it?
>
> As I've been saying all along. So as a men's rights activist I went further and asked
> the question "Why don't men respect their sexuality?". The answer I came up with was
> that it was due to all the sexually shaming messages they get from society, combined
Possibly.
But I question your first premise, that men don't respect their sexuality.
> with the rarity of women approaching them with interest as a potential lover (IE,
> asking them for dates). What answer have you got?
Hm.
Most women I know that ARE agressive & DO ask men out don't have much
luck. Many men seem to be frightened off by this type of behavior (at
least in regards to long term relationships).
Then you have the sterotype - men just wanna get laid & women just wanna
get married. (More social sterotypes/conditioning for you to rail against)
> | however ... there IS a chunk of the population that sees nothing wrong
> | with it. & not just in this culture.
>
> Argumentum ad populum fallacy.
Careful. Talking latin to a Celt is fighting words -evil grin-
My point is, selling sex is just about the oldest trade deal around.
Thousands of years of civilization, & they have not been able to ban that
transaction.
I doub't you will find the answer to that, where so many others have
failed.
Nor am I sure it is a sign that culture sends shaming messages about men's
sexuality.
Jag