US N-number a/c abroad
Joseph Brown
single-engine Piper that made an emmergency crash-landing on a highyay in
Greece. When I saw it's registration number N-40899 I thought that it
actually came from the US. (That's a heck of a trans-atlantic trip for
single engine!, - no kidding the old aircraft failed, I said)
I then searched the A/C registration database on landings.com, entered its
tail number: N-40899 and I found that the A/C is registred in the states,
BUT it's owners and operations are based in Greece! How can that be? Does
this mean that this aircraft is under FAA rules and jurisdictions? What are
the advantages/disadvantages for a foreign owner to do this?
Would the opposite be true? To register an aircraft in Greece, permenantly
import it to the states and have it flying with an SX-123456 greek tail
number, for example?
I know that this is common practice for US ships to sail under a Bahamas
flag, but I didn't know that it's also true for light single-engine general
aviation aircraft!
Joachim Feise
>
> I then searched the A/C registration database on landings.com, entered its
> tail number: N-40899 and I found that the A/C is registred in the states,
> BUT it's owners and operations are based in Greece! How can that be?
There are lots of US registered aircraft in Europe.
A person who is not a US citizen or Permanent Resident can not own a
US-registered airplane. Other countries has similar rules.
The usual workaround is to set up a trust registered in the US (there are
companies who specialize in setting this up.)
See, e.g., <http://www.pplir.com/sub.cfm/id/46/cat/Using%20the%20Rating/page/N-Registration>
> this mean that this aircraft is under FAA rules and jurisdictions? What are
> the advantages/disadvantages for a foreign owner to do this?
The main thing: you can fly it with an American pilot certificate.
There are also local tax considerations, of course.
-Joe
Richard Kaplan
"Joseph Brown" <joeb...@wdontspam.edu> wrote in message
news:eiAZa.17064$ij4.2...@weber.videotron.net...
> I then searched the A/C registration database on landings.com, entered its
> tail number: N-40899 and I found that the A/C is registred in the states,
> BUT it's owners and operations are based in Greece! How can that be? Does
> this mean that this aircraft is under FAA rules and jurisdictions? What
are
> the advantages/disadvantages for a foreign owner to do this?
Yes, this is possible and happens all the time.
For starters, if the pilot has only a U.S. pilot license then he can fly an
N-registered airplane in any country without needing to get another pilot
license.
This also means the airplane could be re-imported to the U.S. and sold to
the large U.S. market without having to go through the cumbersome process to
re-earn a U.S. certificate of airworthiness.
The plane does need to be continued to be maintained and flown under U.S.
regulations, which could be a plus or a minus depending on the jurisdiction
involved.
> Would the opposite be true? To register an aircraft in Greece,
permenantly
> import it to the states and have it flying with an SX-123456 greek tail
> number, for example?
This could be done but it would probably be harder to get Greece-approved
maintenance done in the U.S. than vice versa. And realize that the holder
of only a U.S. pilot license could not be PIC in such an airplane.
On the other hand, if the airplane had modfications not under a
U.S.-approved STC, a lot of paperwork and inspections could be required to
regain a U.S. N number, or perhaps the airplane were of a type never
certified in the U.S.
--
Richard Kaplan, CFII
rka...@flyimc.com
www.flyimc.com
Charles Talleyrand
"Joachim Feise" <re...@the.newsgroup> wrote in message news:bh6mqu$3av$1...@news.service.uci.edu...
> Joseph Brown wrote:
> >
> > I then searched the A/C registration database on landings.com, entered its
> > tail number: N-40899 and I found that the A/C is registred in the states,
> > BUT it's owners and operations are based in Greece! How can that be?
>
> There are lots of US registered aircraft in Europe.
>
And the European nations accept this? They don't force a local
registry after a residency period?
This seems weird to me!
Thomas Borchert
> How can that be?
Through trusts in Delaware, since the owner must be a US citizen.
> Does
> this mean that this aircraft is under FAA rules and jurisdictions?
Partly. Operation must also be according to local rules (e.g. airpsace and
such), but maintenance or pilot qualification is according to US rules.
> What are
> the advantages/disadvantages for a foreign owner to do this?
See above. Rules are much more restrictive in many countries than in the US.
Certificates in the US can be much cheaper than in many countries. Thus, it
can be cheaper to operate and fly a US registered aircraft even if you have
to go through the trouble of finding US certified mechanics, inspectors and
repair stations for maintenance.
--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
Cub Driver
>> this mean that this aircraft is under FAA rules and jurisdictions? What are
>> the advantages/disadvantages for a foreign owner to do this?
>
>The main thing: you can fly it with an American pilot certificate.
>There are also local tax considerations, of course.
How do taxes come into it?
(Gosh, wouldn't it be neat if we could register our cars in whatever
state gave us the best deal?)
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
Cub Driver
>- Various cost savings, e.g. you don't pay for the UK CAA CofA which
>is some US$2000+, every 3 years.
Good grief!
Cub Driver
>otherwise you have to set up a
>Delaware trust and this costs about $2k to set up and $500/year to run
>- there is a whole range of prices though.
Come to New Hampshire and file as a regular corporation. I think it
cost $25 to set up and $100 a year thereafter. You also need a seal:
$35.
Of course you need a New Hampshire resident as a director. Perhaps
that's the larger part of the $2K / $500, getting a corp mill to do
the paperwork?
Thomas Borchert
> How do taxes come into it?
>
For example, import tax has to be paid on the aircraft if it remains in
Germany for longer than 6 weeks (or some such period). There are checks
for proof of that payment, I'm told by operators of N-reg aircraft.
--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
David Megginson
>> There are lots of US registered aircraft in Europe.
> And the European nations accept this? They don't force a local
> registry after a residency period?
>
> This seems weird to me!
I've heard of more than a few Canadian-registered planes based in the
U.S., many of them owned by retirees. The big problem for those
owners is finding a Canadian AME to sign off on their annual
inspections -- I imagine that a Canadian AME who wanted to go into
early semi-retirement could make a decent living moving down to
California, Arizona, or Florida and setting up a working relationship
with a few local U.S. shops, with the appropriate work visa.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson, da...@megginson.com, http://www.megginson.com/
Stefan
>
> > There are lots of US registered aircraft in Europe.
> And the European nations accept this? They don't force a local
> registry after a residency period?
Yes, they do, at least those I know (which are admittedly few). The
trick is to have the plane owned by an US enterprize and lease it from
there. There are several enterprizes which offer this service, or it is
not too difficult to create your own.
Stefan
Thomas Borchert
> Perhaps
> that's the larger part of the $2K / $500, getting a corp mill to do
> the paperwork?
>
I guess so. There are several companies advertising in the European
magazines offering the service of owning your aircraft.
As for the general amazement displayed here about people in Europe
having their planes US-registered - I've said it before, I'll say it
again: If you think GA has it bad in the US, if you think you have too
much bureaucracy and rules around your flying, if you think flying in
the US is expensive - please have a look at Europe (or any other
country). Just check fuel prices, landing fees and opening times of
small fields for starters. Afetr that, ask for IFR departure slots for
small GA, enroute fees for IFR above 2 metric tonnes MTOW, landing fees
at big airports, rules around noise, rules for ADF and DME equipment,
transponder rules or maintenance requirements.
You ain't seen nothing yet!
--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
David Megginson
> As for the general amazement displayed here about people in Europe
> having their planes US-registered - I've said it before, I'll say it
> again: If you think GA has it bad in the US, if you think you have too
> much bureaucracy and rules around your flying, if you think flying in
> the US is expensive - please have a look at Europe (or any other
> country).
Not *any* other country. Canada is at least as easy and friendly a
place to fly as the U.S.: the public is mostly positive about G.A.,
gas isn't much more expensive (I pay about USD 3.00/us_gallon right
now), maintenance is sometimes cheaper, we don't have to deal with all
the security restrictions south of the border, and we have a *lot* of
class G; on the other hand, light aircraft owners have to pay an
annual USD 40.00 fee for privatised ATC, we're required to have flight
plans or flight itineraries for any VFR flight over 25 nm, and IFR
pilots are have to retake the IFR flight test every two years on top
of other currency requirements.
I don't remember what people posted last time this topic came up, but
I'm sure that some other countries, perhaps Australia or New Zealand,
must also be reasonably G.A.-friendly.
Is the UK better than the rest of Europe, I wonder?
Paul
the Navy flying club at Rota Spain. I kept my plane at Tablada a Spanish
Airforce base outside Sevilla.
I flew it for nearly 3 years, The FAA was in Madrid and I was simply
informed to call him in an instant if I ever had an accident or incident.
Cheers:
Paul
NC2273H
Thomas Borchert
> Is the UK better than the rest of Europe, I wonder?
>
Not at all, AFAIK.
--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
Dylan Smith
>Is the UK better than the rest of Europe, I wonder?
Not really, but I haven't found it intolerable.
(Disclaimer: the Isle of Man isn't the UK, but most of the rules are similar,
and I fly to the UK reasonably often).
One thing though: since the CAA allows you to fly G-registered aircraft
on a US PPL with no paperwork whatsoever, I'm not bothering with a JAR
license. The US certificate is far more valuable and easy to keep up.
And if I ever get a real "go places" aircraft, it will be on the N
register so I have the full privileges of my FAA certificate.
AFAIK, France is the best country in Europe for aviation.
However, the CAA has been showing some clue recently, with the NPPL
(medical requirements: you can get a driving license).
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
Robert Perkins
Smith) wrote:
>
>AFAIK, France is the best country in Europe for aviation.
>However, the CAA has been showing some clue recently, with the NPPL
>(medical requirements: you can get a driving license).
Isn't a driver's license much harder to get (on the order of half an
FAA certificate, I think) in France and other countries in Europe?
Rob
Dylan Smith
wrote:
No idea about France, but in any case I wasn't thinking of the difficulty
level of the practical test. I was pointing out that the medical requirements
were the same as the medical requirements for driving i.e. no expensive
aviation medical.
John Harper
procedure. This is true throughout the EU. At one time there was a niche
business in Germans visitng the UK for a couple of weeks for an intensive
driving course (a bit like the Florida flying schools) then going back
and converting them to German licences which apparently ARE very
hard to get.
(That said, I lived in France for 10 years and never bothered, I was out
of the country often enough that this was legal).
John
"Dylan Smith" <dy...@vexed2.alioth.net> wrote in message
news:slrnbjkbcf...@vexed2.alioth.net...
Larry Dighera
in Message-Id: <91883f8d.03081...@posting.google.com>:
>> Through trusts in Delaware, since the owner must be a US citizen.
>
>Actually, it's a Voting Trust and can be in any state. A voting trust
>translates loosely to a US citizen owning 51% of the company but has
>no voting rights. The foreign citizen owns 49% but has voting rights.
>The net result is the foreign citizen votes and operates the company
>as though he were full owner.
>
>
>Mike
How does this affect the liability exposure of the stockholders and
trustees?
http://www.investorwords.com/cgi-bin/getword.cgi?5265
voting trust
An agreement whereby shareholders transfer stock and voting rights to
a small group of individuals, called voting trustees, for a specific
time period.
--
Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera, LDig...@att.net
Patrick
> For example, import tax has to be paid on the aircraft if it remains in
> Germany for longer than 6 weeks (or some such period). There are checks
> for proof of that payment, I'm told by operators of N-reg aircraft.
But the good thing: you don't have to pay any tax on your insurance if the
aircraft is registered in a foreign country.
Patrick