size of seeds and not violate 2nd Law Thermodynamics
Archimedes Plutonium
Swiss strawberries. And a question and problem comes to mind. How can
this tiny
seed hold enough energy so that the plant can grow some roots and then
grow
some top to catch sunlight and get its own energy.
It seems as though the smallest size plant seed is restricted in storing
enough
energy in order to emerge out of the ground and start supplying its own
energy from the Sun.
The sperm and egg of animals can be microscopic because they get their
energy inhouse. Unlike a plant that has to have some energy stored.
So, there seems to be a Minimal Size for all plant seeds. If true, what
is it?
A strawberry seed seems to be about the smallest size seed?
Archimedes Plutonium, 24SEP02, a_plu...@hotmail.com
Monique Reed
achenes, many from each flower. Each achene has a seed inside. Many,
many plants have smaller seeds. Look at begonia seed sometime. It's
like dust.
Orchid seeds are generally regarded as the smallest--in most species
there's a very tiny, simple embryo surrounded by 1 or two thin layers
of cells and almost no nutritive tissue. For germination, the seeds
must be infected by a strain of mycorrhizal fungi, which will
effectively act as the seedling's roots.
M. Reed
Cereoid+10
he doesn't even know the basics of botany.
Strawberries are New World natives, Archie. You Swiss cultivar is not
"wild".
My question to you, Archie, is how can you tiny brain produce enough energy
for you to be able to type up the fanciful nonsense you post? It must be an
incredible strain on your oafish body.
Monique Reed <mon...@mail.bio.tamu.edu> wrote in message
news:3D9072BF...@mail.bio.tamu.edu...
Archimedes Plutonium
> What you are calling strawberry seeds are actually the fruit--tiny
> achenes, many from each flower. Each achene has a seed inside. Many,
> many plants have smaller seeds. Look at begonia seed sometime. It's
> like dust.
I suspect seed evolution is pushing up against the barrier of the 2nd Law
of Thermodynamics. Of course they do not violate the 2nd Law but they
do manage to converge upon that barrier ever so closely.
>
>
> Orchid seeds are generally regarded as the smallest--in most species
> there's a very tiny, simple embryo surrounded by 1 or two thin layers
> of cells and almost no nutritive tissue. For germination, the seeds
> must be infected by a strain of mycorrhizal fungi, which will
> effectively act as the seedling's roots.
>
> M. Reed
In that regard orchids are almost like animal egg&sperm where another
independent energy source creates the new individual.
So, what is the minimum seed size in order to be viable? To create enough
of a plant structure that begins to capture sunlight and able to grow on
its own thereafter? Is the "begonia" the smallest seed? And therefore
the smallest seed is still macroscopic compared to animals wherein their
reproductive particles can be microscopic.
I don't suppose a plant seed exists that can be the size of a human sperm
simply because the stored energy is not enough to create a plant structure
that can capture sunlight energy and grow from there.
Archimedes Plutonium, 24SEP02, a_plu...@hotmail.com
Monique Reed
Begonia.
You can't really compare plant seeds with mammalian egg and sperm
because they are not the same. A plant seed is a multicelluar embryo
with our without nutritive tissue and a protective covering. Animal
sperm and eggs are single cells.
The comparison you are searching for is to compare plant sperm nuclei
from pollen and the egg cells in a plant ovary to animal egg and
sperm. Plant sperm and egg cells are likewise microscopic, and their
union, an embryo, is likewise unable to survive without being nutured
in the plant's ovary.
You can learn more by picking up a book on basic botany.
M. Reed
P van Rijckevorsel
is a hybrid between two American species, first grown in Europe), there are
wild strawberries elsewhere, including Switzerland (the 'fruits' are much
smaller).
The size of seeds will not necessarily be determined by the minimum required
to make an independent start in life as by competition with other seeds. The
smallest adequate size need not be the optimum strategy. Any seed has to
compete against it fellow seeds in the 'struggle for life' leading to a
natural selection of the seed following the most succesful strategy. This
includes mechanisms ruling the time of germination. Timing is everything,
especially in temperate climes where winters will kill would-be plants
mistiming it.
PvR
Cereoid+10 <cer...@prodigy.net> wrote
Strawberries are New World natives, Archie. You Swiss cultivar is not
"wild".
> Monique Reed <mon...@mail.bio.tamu.edu> wrote
> > What you are calling strawberry seeds are actually the fruit--tiny
achenes, many from each flower. Each achene has a seed inside. Many,
many plants have smaller seeds. Look at begonia seed sometime. It's
like dust.
> > Orchid seeds are generally regarded as the smallest--in most species
there's a very tiny, simple embryo surrounded by 1 or two thin layers
of cells and almost no nutritive tissue. For germination, the seeds
must be infected by a strain of mycorrhizal fungi, which will
effectively act as the seedling's roots.
> > M. Reed
==========================
Chris Garvey
: It is so difficult to give the babbling of Archie any credence at all when
: he doesn't even know the basics of botany.
: Strawberries are New World natives, Archie. You Swiss cultivar is not
: "wild".
: My question to you, Archie, is how can you tiny brain produce enough energy
: for you to be able to type up the fanciful nonsense you post? It must be an
: incredible strain on your oafish body.
It was an fairly interesting question.
Was it not for people being able to take flight on the wings of fancy
people such as yourself would still be walking on a flat earth.
i HAVE A qestion for you, where do you find the energy for such spite?
erastothenes
: Monique Reed <mon...@mail.bio.tamu.edu> wrote in message
--
>:)(:<
Taking the "paranoid" out of "delusion".
icq #107970956
Chris Garvey
: Reread my post. Orchid seeds in general are smallest. Smaller than
: Begonia.
: You can't really compare plant seeds with mammalian egg and sperm
: because they are not the same. A plant seed is a multicelluar embryo
: with our without nutritive tissue and a protective covering. Animal
: sperm and eggs are single cells.
: The comparison you are searching for is to compare plant sperm nuclei
: from pollen and the egg cells in a plant ovary to animal egg and
: sperm. Plant sperm and egg cells are likewise microscopic, and their
: union, an embryo, is likewise unable to survive without being nutured
: in the plant's ovary.
: You can learn more by picking up a book on basic botany.
You could learn a little from a basic physics or chemistry text.
Perhaps its time to drop the leaded boots of certainity?
ya never know when you might fall into a river?
erastothenes
: M. Reed
--
Cereoid+10
and stupidity. It was not inspired at all. Its taken out of the World Book
Encyclopedia and jumbled up.
I would prefer to walk on your flat head, oblivious one.
My source of energy is none of your concern, yo yo-yo.
Chris Garvey <obli...@yoyo.its.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
news:amqjt8$esc$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
Iris Cohen
a very tiny, simple embryo surrounded by 1 or two thin layers of cells and
almost no nutritive tissue. For germination, the seeds must be infected by a
strain of mycorrhizal fungi, which will effectively act as the seedling's roots
>>
Orchid seeds contain no endosperm at all. They do have a couple of fat cells.
In captivity they are germinated on a sterile nutritive agar gel.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much
that ain't so."
Josh Billings (Henry Wheeler Shaw), 1818-1885
Chris Garvey
: and stupidity. It was not inspired at all. Its taken out of the World Book
: Encyclopedia and jumbled up.
Consider this, who does an experiment that they know the answer to?
: I would prefer to walk on your flat head, oblivious one.
: My source of energy is none of your concern, yo yo-yo.
*clap*
*clap*
Very good, but your wit is wasted on the likes of me.
regards
erastothenes
: Chris Garvey <obli...@yoyo.its.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
:>
Archimedes Plutonium
> In sci.bio.botany Monique Reed <mon...@mail.bio.tamu.edu> wrote:
> : Reread my post. Orchid seeds in general are smallest. Smaller than
> : Begonia.
>
> : You can't really compare plant seeds with mammalian egg and sperm
> : because they are not the same. A plant seed is a multicelluar embryo
> : with our without nutritive tissue and a protective covering. Animal
> : sperm and eggs are single cells.
>
You do not understand what I am exploring here. I want to explore how
small a "seed" can get and yet able enough to grow into a new plant by
means of its own stored energy. We all recognize that a seed is not
provided with photosynthetic energy until it has grown to some extent.
So, doubt that Monique understands the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
and the aim of this thread.
The comparison to animal egg&sperm is just a sideissue because a
*host* organism supplies the energy.
So the question remains. Can a plant seed that is dependent with its
early life when the seed germinates and before it derives its energy from
photosynthesis ever become as small of an entity as a human sperm?
A human sperm needs energy to swing its tail and move forwards so
that even a human sperm has some contained energy. And the human
egg has even more contained energy to fund projects. But these human
"seed particles" are funded mostly by the host (pregnant woman).
Unlike a seed that is on its own until it grows enough plant structure that
photosynthesis can strart collecting new energy.
Your orchid seed seems to need a host, just as humans need hosts so
to my question, orchid seeds fall out of relevancy.
So then it is begonia seeds that are the smallest plant seeds that require
no hosts and which have to have enough stored energy to build up enough
of a plant structure so that photosynthesis can thence provide the new
individual with energy.
Perhaps my question would be answered if it is known whether photosynthesis
occurs not only in leaves but in stem and shoots. Thus the seedling need only
stick itself out of the ground and photosynthesis begins.
So, the query of this thread is to know what is the *Minimum size* that a plant
seed can have in order for that seed to grow into a new plant. There must
be a minimum size in order to not violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
If there was no minimum size then you could have microscopic seeds of
plants that violated the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
So I am guessing that begonia seeds that are dust size are the minimum size.
And that sort of agrees with the notion that the smallest plant seeds (without
hosts) are begonia seeds. And that plant seeds are macroscopic but that
animal "egg&sperm" can be microscopic since the host provides the energy.
>
> : The comparison you are searching for is to compare plant sperm nuclei
> : from pollen and the egg cells in a plant ovary to animal egg and
> : sperm. Plant sperm and egg cells are likewise microscopic, and their
> : union, an embryo, is likewise unable to survive without being nutured
> : in the plant's ovary.
>
> : You can learn more by picking up a book on basic botany.
>
> You could learn a little from a basic physics or chemistry text.
>
> Perhaps its time to drop the leaded boots of certainity?
>
> ya never know when you might fall into a river?
>
> erastothenes
>
I seem to remember some poster in the mid to late 1990s with a pen name
of Erastothenes who used to post into my threads, only he was from the USA
and not Australia. If this is the same person well, welcome back. And good to
see again.
Archimedes Plutonium, 25SEP02, a_plu...@hotmail.com
Chris Garvey
Don`t take this personally but I`m not that interested in being
understood or understanding....
erastothenes
: The comparison to animal egg&sperm is just a sideissue because a
: Archimedes Plutonium, 25SEP02, a_plu...@hotmail.com
Cereoid+10
proposition with a preposition?
Time for you to go back to grammar school, fool!
Chris Garvey <obli...@yoyo.its.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
news:amrd9d$ige$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
Cereoid+10
You are exploring the world of stupidity without a clue.
It is best that you do so all alone!!
Archimedes Plutonium <a_plu...@dtgnet.com> wrote in message
news:3D914820...@dtgnet.com...
Chris Garvey
: proposition with a preposition?
: Time for you to go back to grammar school, fool!
in the words of the great archie.....
read my posting
I don`t c where I ask to be taken seriously.
here`s a nice piece of vernacular for U
wanker
yours oh so sincerely
erastothenes
: Chris Garvey <obli...@yoyo.its.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
: news:amrd9d$ige$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
Cereoid+10
May the rest of you take heed in that revelation and all its ramifications.
You and Archie are supreme wankers!
Chris Garvey <obli...@yoyo.its.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
news:amrtv5$me0$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
Iris Cohen
"wild". >>
The cultivated strawberry was hybridized from South American & other New World
species, but as far as I can determine the "alpine" or "wild" strawberry,
Fragaria vesca, is native to Europe.
Cereoid+10
Fragaria vesca may now be naturalized in Europe but it is a North American
native.
Remember your quotation!
Iris Cohen <iris...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020925085939...@mb-bh.aol.com...
P van Rijckevorsel
> Sorry Iris,
Fragaria vesca may now be naturalized in Europe but it is a North American
native.
Remember your quotation!
+ + +
Maybe you should read the list from time to time (actually Europe has two
native strawberry species):
> ----- Original Message -----
From: P van Rijckevorsel <dipt...@wanadoo.nl>
Newsgroups: sci.bio.technology,sci.bio.botany
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: size of seeds and not violate 2nd Law Thermodynamics
Although the cultivated strawberry derives from the New World, sort of (it
is a hybrid between two American species, first grown in Europe), there are
wild strawberries elsewhere, including Switzerland (the 'fruits' are much
smaller).
PvR
+ + +
Cereoid+10 <cer...@prodigy.net> wrote
> > << Strawberries are New World natives, Archie. Your Swiss cultivar is
not "wild". >>
> Iris Cohen <iris...@aol.com> wrote
Cereoid+10
P van Rijckevorsel <dipt...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:nhlk9.13955$PO2.1...@castor.casema.net...
Beverly Erlebacher
Cereoid+10 <cer...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>Fragaria vesca may now be naturalized in Europe but it is a North American
>native.
F.moschata is a European species. I suspect there are other Fragaria spp
native to Europe and probably Asia.
P van Rijckevorsel
strawberry. Was this before, during or after the Ice Ages? What kind of
ships did they use? Wooden boats, or of reed? Perhaps they stopped over in
Atlantis? Oh that is it: they had flying saucers! (:@)
PvR
Cereoid+10 <cer...@prodigy.net> wrote
> Naturalized not native.
> > Cereoid+10 <cer...@prodigy.net> wrote
> > > Sorry Iris,
Fragaria vesca may now be naturalized in Europe but it is a North American
native. Remember your quotation!
> P van Rijckevorsel <dipt...@wanadoo.nl> wrote
Cereoid+10
It was the Europeans who visited the New World and brought back native
plants on their return home.
Have you ever heard of Christopher Columbus and the three Spanish ships he
captained in search of India? I suppose not. It isn't an important part of
your fascist country's revisionist history. Columbus made several other
trips to the New World and he was later followed by the British, Dutch and
French.
P van Rijckevorsel <dipt...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:PAok9.14197$PO2.1...@castor.casema.net...
Cereoid+10
website instead?
http://www.nal.usda.gov/pgdic/Strawberry/
http://www.nal.usda.gov/pgdic/Strawberry/book/bokeigh.htm#wild
Beverly Erlebacher <b...@cs.toronto.edu> wrote in message
news:2002Sep25.1...@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu...
Beverly Erlebacher
Cereoid+10 <cer...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Okay kids, instead of hypothesizing, how about going to the strawberry
>website instead?
>
>http://www.nal.usda.gov/pgdic/Strawberry/
>
>http://www.nal.usda.gov/pgdic/Strawberry/book/bokeigh.htm#wild
Good idea. This link not only confirms Iris's statement that F.vesca is
'the common wild woodland strawberry of Europe and Asia' but states that
it has a circumpolar distribution, not due to naturalizing.
The page also confirms my thought that there are more Fragaria spp in
Europe and Asia, and that F.moschata is not only European, but its range
extends far into northern Asia.
Fragaria seems to be fairly speciose, and is not only found all over the
northern hemisphere, but extends into southeast Asia and South America.
Thanks for the link. Cool stuff.
P van Rijckevorsel
And certainly preferable to blowing one's top all over the place.
I must admit I knew all along that Fragaria vesca was native to both America
and Eurasia, but I could not help trying to see how far Cereoid would go
before the penny dropped
PvR
======================
Beverly Erlebacher <b...@cs.toronto.edu> wrote
> Good idea. This link not only confirms Iris's statement that F.vesca is
'the common wild woodland strawberry of Europe and Asia' but states that
it has a circumpolar distribution, not due to naturalizing.
> The page also confirms my thought that there are more Fragaria spp in
Europe and Asia, and that F.moschata is not only European, but its range
extends far into northern Asia.
> Fragaria seems to be fairly speciose, and is not only found all over the
northern hemisphere, but extends into southeast Asia and South America.
> Thanks for the link. Cool stuff.
===========================
> Cereoid+10 <cer...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >Okay kids, instead of hypothesizing, how about going to the strawberry
website instead?
http://www.nal.usda.gov/pgdic/Strawberry/
http://www.nal.usda.gov/pgdic/Strawberry/book/bokeigh.htm#wild
============================
> >Beverly Erlebacher <b...@cs.toronto.edu> wrote
> >> F.moschata is a European species. I suspect there are other Fragaria
spp native to Europe and probably Asia.
============================
Chris Garvey
: May the rest of you take heed in that revelation and all its ramifications.
: You and Archie are supreme wankers!
thankyou
It is far better to be reliant on oneself than need the approval of
others.
... in fact...
mmmmmm.....
that was rather satisfying
regards
erastothenes
: Chris Garvey <obli...@yoyo.its.monash.edu.au> wrote in message
: news:amrtv5$me0$1...@towncrier.cc.monash.edu.au...
Andy Dingley
<mon...@mail.bio.tamu.edu> wrote:
>You can learn more by picking up a book on basic botany.
Anything you'd recommend ?
Monique Reed
is using as a textbook for introductory botany or as the plant portion
of a *balanced* ecology course. (The intro botany titles on my shelf
are a bit out of date since I've been dealing mostly with systematics
and floristics for the last 15 years.) I'd bet it wouldn't be beyond
the grasp of anyone willing to learn a little vocabulary. Look for
something that has a little genetics and ecology and not just the dry
"this is a moss, this is a fern" lifecycle and anatomy stuff. Bonus
points if the book includes a survey of important flowering plant
families, though you may have to stretch to a taxonomy book for that.
In that case, I can recommend Walters & Keil's _Vascular Plant
Taxonomy._ If that's a little too meaty, you can look for a K-12 level
book such as the kind Dorling Kindersley puts out, and then work your
way up. Alas, Imes' _Practical Botanist_ is out of print, but if you
can find it, great.
If you can borrow, rent, or afford the video set of Attenborough's
_The Private Life of Plants_, that will give you a great sampling of
the "spiffy" factor of botany, rather than the dull stuff presented in
many intro botany classes. Plants are cool, even if botany texts are
not.
Monique Reed
David Hershey
chapters listed at the bottom of the index page:
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/
There are over a half dozen college botany texts in print, some with
quite a lineage behind them:
http://www-dateline.ucdavis.edu/081602/dl_texts.html
Some botany textbook websites have some free items such as essays,
chapter outlines or summaries, glossaries, web links and quizzes.
Stern's text seems to be the most widely used given the number of
editions. Raven's text is probably the most in depth treatment.
Introductory Plant Biology by Stern:
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/botany/stern8e/
Biology of Plants by Raven, Evert and Eichorn:
http://www.whfreeman.com/raven/index.htm
Botany: An Introduction to Plant Biology by Mauseth:
http://catalog.jbpub.com/detail.cfm?i=2134-4
Botany by Moore, Clark and Vodopich:
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/moore/index.mhtml
Introductory Botany: Plants, People and the Environment by Berg:
http://www.harcourtcollege.com/lifesci/berg/
Principles of Botany by Uno, Storey and Moore:
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/botany/uno/
Plant Biology by Graham, Graham, Wilcox, Timm, and Graham:
http://vig.prenhall.com/catalog/academic/product/1,4096,0130303712,00.html
Ebay often has recent botany texts for sale cheap.
Hartmann's Plant Science: Growth, Development, and Utilization of
Cultivated Plants (3rd Edition) by McMahon, Kofranek, Hartmann, and
Rubatzky has a lot basic botany but is designed for horticulture
students so also has a lot of plant cultivation and crop information:
http://wps.prenhall.com/chet_mcmahon_plantscien_3
Using a good search engine, such as google.com, you can find lots of
college websites with good information on many botanical topics.
Wayne's World has a lot of interesting plant webpages:
http://waynesword.palomar.edu/worthypl.htm
Scott's Botanical Links gives short descriptions for many interesting
sites:
http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/bot-linx/
David R. Hershey
Andy Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> wrote in message news:<hdehpuck1cscq3ov9...@4ax.com>...