Christian Car-Fish parody
Rob Piltz
there was a Christian car-fish stuck on the back of it. No big deal, but
something about it looked a bit odd. Then I noticed that this fish had a
fin on its back and mouth full of sharp teeth. I laughed out loud, it was
even more subtle than the Darwin fish.
BTW - someone care to explain the whole Christian car-fish thing? I
understand where the fish symbol comes from, but it seems that a cross
would be a more appropriate way to wear your beliefs on your (car's)
sleeve.
RPRPRP
--
There's a Smiths lyric for every occasion, I tell you.
- Dave Mooney
Bradley E. Wohlenberg
: While stopped at a traffic light while driving home last night, I noticed
: there was a Christian car-fish stuck on the back of it. No big deal, but
: something about it looked a bit odd. Then I noticed that this fish had a
: fin on its back and mouth full of sharp teeth. I laughed out loud, it was
: even more subtle than the Darwin fish.
My brother just gave me one of these. Being a lawyer, I find it quite
appropriate. Being a local government lawyer, there is no way I will
put it on my car for fear of offending a Christian office-holder who has
any hiring authority. Money is more important to me than tweaking the
nose of fundamentalists.
: BTW - someone care to explain the whole Christian car-fish thing? I
: understand where the fish symbol comes from, but it seems that a cross
: would be a more appropriate way to wear your beliefs on your (car's)
: sleeve.
This is like giving away the secret handshake, but here goes. Please
understand that I am not preaching here, just imparting historical
information.
I have no idea how true this is, but it is the generally accepted
explanation. Back when Christianity was getting its start in Roman times,
it was often viewed as a subversive religion (_One_ god? Not our official
state god?) so there was a lot of oppression of Christians. This forced
the church underground, and believers needed a way to identify a meeting
place or to identify themselves to each other. Since they were to be
"fishers of men", they chose a fish. If you saw a fish drawn on a wall,
you knew you were near a gathering. I've heard that if you wondered if
someone was a Christian, you could idly draw an arc in the dirt, and they
would complete it into a fish if they were a Christian. Alternatively,
you could draw the fish, and they could fill it in with IXOYE, which are
the first letters (in Greek) of the phrase (I can't remember if this is
the correct order), "Christ Jesus, Son of God, Savior."
Nowadays, it also has some additional purpose in proclaiming one's belief
in Christianity. There is a bible verse that attributes Jesus with words
to the effect of, "If you deny me before man, I will deny you before God."
In other words, if you deny being a Christian while on earth, don't expect
any support from whoever is on the right hand of God when you get to
Judgment Day. Considering, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one
comes to the Father except by Me," that could be a critical error if you
are trying to avoid The Big Roaster.
So, assuming the person who puts this on their car knows all of this, it
isn't even directed at nonbelievers, so try not to get upset. It is
usually an effort toward birds of a fundamentalist feather flocking
together. You may argue amongst yourselves about the pros and cons of
people trying to limit their contacts to those similar to themselves, but
they do.
Brad "Got an A in Religious Studies as UCRiverside" Wohlenberg
James C. Harrison
execution as the symbol of the faith. Obviously the shock is long since
gone--maybe the church should update by putting a big hypodermic syringe
on the roof or, if a religous artefact has to be at least somewhat out of
date, they might try a gallows.
hexis
Rob Piltz
Bradley E. Wohlenberg <bwoh...@crl.com> wrote:
>
>My brother just gave me one of these. Being a lawyer, I find it quite
>appropriate. Being a local government lawyer, there is no way I will
>put it on my car for fear of offending a Christian office-holder who has
>any hiring authority. Money is more important to me than tweaking the
>nose of fundamentalists.
Aw, show some backbone. :-) Fundies need their noses tweaked too. It's
really hard to tell that it isn't the "real" thing when you are sitting in a
separate car. Or just send it to me.
>This is like giving away the secret handshake, but here goes.
Oh now you've done it. Now all sorts of human secularists will be able
to infiltrate and subvert various Christian groups.
>I have no idea how true this is, but it is the generally accepted
>explanation. [snip]
When I read your explanation, it all came back to me. I had hoped I had
really forgotten all this and freed up some space in my head. But nooooo....
Bradley E. Wohlenberg
: I'm not a Christian, but I admire the daring of using an instrument of
This reminds me of one of my pet religious peeves. So often we hear
people talk about their various burdens as being a "cross to bear." When
someone says this, please explain that they don't understand their own
religion! The proper interpretation of the call to "pick up your cross
and follow me" is that it means you must be willing to die in service to
God. I especially hate it when some sanctimonious piece of crap uses it
to refer to their misbehaving children. I consider my daughter a
blessing, not a burden (though she already tries our patience sometimes).
Brad "Don't get my religion rant started" Wohlenberg
Douglas Lathrop
: I'm not a Christian, but I admire the daring of using an instrument of
: execution as the symbol of the faith. Obviously the shock is long since
: gone--maybe the church should update by putting a big hypodermic syringe
: on the roof or, if a religous artefact has to be at least somewhat out of
: date, they might try a gallows.
Nah. A dunking stool. This has the advantage of being both an
instrument of execution AND a test of one's faith. If the accused
drowned, she was obviously among the righteous - if she survived, it was
considered proof of witchery and she was then hanged.
Has the Christian Coalition contracted a dunking-stool manufacturer yet?
I'd like to get in on the ground floor.
--
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Chris Lyons
>While stopped at a traffic light while driving home last night, I noticed
>there was a Christian car-fish stuck on the back of it. No big deal, but
>something about it looked a bit odd. Then I noticed that this fish had a
>fin on its back and mouth full of sharp teeth. I laughed out loud, it was
>even more subtle than the Darwin fish.
>
>BTW - someone care to explain the whole Christian car-fish thing? I
>understand where the fish symbol comes from, but it seems that a cross
>would be a more appropriate way to wear your beliefs on your (car's)
>sleeve.
A cross would symbolize that you are a Christian. Christ died on the
cross for them.
Peter became a "Fisher of Men:" He found people who would believe that
Christ was the savior. Therefor, the people who have the fish emblem
on their cars wish to bring others to Christ, or also be "fishers of
men."
HTH.
__________________________________________________________________________
Chris Lyons |"We'll love you just the way your are if you're
wee...@beer.me.iastate.edu| perfect"--Alanis Morissette, "Perfect"
__________________________________________________________________________
Elizabeth Randell
: Peter became a "Fisher of Men:" He found people who would believe that
: Christ was the savior. Therefor, the people who have the fish emblem
: on their cars wish to bring others to Christ, or also be "fishers of
: men."
The fish was taken as a Christian symbol early on, because the letters,
in Greek, of the word "fish" are the initials of Jesus Christ, God (I
forget the rest: Iesus Xrist, THeos <something something> = IXTHIS =
"fish").
--Elizabeth
arcana "R" us
--
Elizabeth Randell Upton (Mrs.) eran...@email.unc.edu
In Chapel Hill, Planned Parenthood can be reached at (919) 929-5402.
Their address is: 93 S. Elliott Road; Chapel Hill NC 27514
The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
Michael C. Aoun
>
>When I read your explanation, it all came back to me. I had hoped I had
>really forgotten all this and freed up some space in my head. But nooooo....
>
>RPRPRP
>--
>There's a Smiths lyric for every occasion, I tell you.
> - Dave Mooney
You never free up space in you head. Once the PROM is burnt there is no
erasing. It can be made unusable but it can't be recovered.
-Mike
Maia Gemmill
(Elizabeth Randell) wrote:
> Chris Lyons (wee...@beer.me.iastate.edu) wrote:
> : Peter became a "Fisher of Men:" He found people who would believe that
> : Christ was the savior. Therefor, the people who have the fish emblem
> : on their cars wish to bring others to Christ, or also be "fishers of
> : men."
>
> The fish was taken as a Christian symbol early on, because the letters,
> in Greek, of the word "fish" are the initials of Jesus Christ, God (I
> forget the rest: Iesus Xrist, THeos <something something> = IXTHIS =
> "fish").
Dan and I have a Darwin fish on Tigger.
Maia
--------------------------------
ma...@bway.net
http://www.bway.net/~maia
Proud parent of Lev and Emma...kittens of the world unite!
V-X
Randell) wrote:
>Chris Lyons (wee...@beer.me.iastate.edu) wrote:
>: Peter became a "Fisher of Men:" He found people who would believe that
>: Christ was the savior. Therefor, the people who have the fish emblem
>: on their cars wish to bring others to Christ, or also be "fishers of
>: men."
>
>The fish was taken as a Christian symbol early on, because the letters,
>in Greek, of the word "fish" are the initials of Jesus Christ, God (I
>forget the rest: Iesus Xrist, THeos <something something> = IXTHIS =
>"fish").
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior.
HTH.
BTW, even if I'm not much of a Christian these days, I still think the
mockery of that symbol is a bratty, shit-your-pants thing, and I think
if the symbol belonged to some other faith I'd get a lot less argument
about that.
Visit the WWW Jack Chick Archive at http://dig.netcentral.net/vx
"...that's always how it is; you never understand anything
until one fine day you die of it." --Lemmy Caution, _Alphaville_
---I'm not putting a Planned Parenthood reference in my .sig to---
-----------protest the CDA, but I almost wish I could.------------
david broudy
- BTW, even if I'm not much of a Christian these days, I still think the
- mockery of that symbol is a bratty, shit-your-pants thing, and I think
- if the symbol belonged to some other faith I'd get a lot less argument
- about that.
Oh, relax. If Islam (or Shinto, or Zuul-ism, or whatever) wielded as much
importance and influence in the US as Christianity does, it would be just
as much of a target from non-believers who choose to express their dismay
about that situation. It isn't Christianity per se that's the target. And
as long as assholes are free to carry signs that say "God says Kill Fags",
I reserve the right to voice my own opinion on the matter.
* http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~broudy/ *
ObCDABait: Planned Parenthood Los Angeles Administration Office:
1920 Marengo Ave, LA 213-223-4462
Katina Choovanski
>
> BTW, even if I'm not much of a Christian these days, I still think the
>
>
Hmm. I saw it more as typical American cause-and-effect product thing.
Any product that catches on in a recognizable way generates parodies.
"Baby on Board" ----> "Mother-in-law in Trunk"
"My child is an honors student at..." ---> "My kid beat up your honors
student."
Jesus fish ---> Darwin fish.
It is bratty humor in all cases. It's also the market in action.
Now true, some people want to run out and buy a Darwin-fish cuz certain
varieties of Christians get on their nerves. I confess to a momentary
impulse in that direction myself, this week. But that probably has
something to do with the fact that a county here just passed a law saying
that the public school system has to use public money to add material to
the curriculum presenting "creation science" in biology classes. :P
**katchoo
V-X
broudy) wrote:
>And
>as long as assholes are free to carry signs that say "God says Kill Fags",
>I reserve the right to voice my own opinion on the matter.
Sure you do. But how many "God Says Kill Fags" signs have you seen in
real life in the last year, and how many "Darwins" did you sit behind
in traffic today?
Me: none. two. (and that's in Bend, OR)
Visit the WWW Jack Chick Archive at http://dig.netcentral.net/vx
Douglas Lathrop
: On Sat, 24 Feb 1996 00:31:20 -0800, bro...@mizar.usc.edu (david
: broudy) wrote:
: >And
: >as long as assholes are free to carry signs that say "God says Kill Fags",
: >I reserve the right to voice my own opinion on the matter.
: Sure you do. But how many "God Says Kill Fags" signs have you seen in
: real life in the last year, and how many "Darwins" did you sit behind
: in traffic today?
: Me: none. two. (and that's in Bend, OR)
Well, I saw a sticker saying "Have you slugged a queer today?" on a
teenager's backpack at the mall about six months ago. And I haven't seen
a single Darwin fish in over a year.
I have, however, seen plenty of the *other* kind of fish - usually right
after the car it's on has cut me off and/or the driver has given me the
finger. (Though I'll grant you, I'm probably just more prone to noticing
them at those times.)
I mean, I can sorta see why the Darwin fish upsets you, but why don't you
get just as upset at the bozos who've trivialized it by turning it into a
fashion accessory in the first place?
And didn't we already have this discussion?
--
D O U G L A S P. L A T H R O P
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A.S.G-X Poster Child - Two words: Bon Vivant! - The NeuFreud of the USENET
Visit Stately PAPER CUT MANOR! http://www.primenet.com/~lathrop/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whaddya mean, I can't say "FuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfucketyFUCK!!" anymore?
steven r kleinedler
>On Sat, 24 Feb 1996 00:31:20 -0800, bro...@mizar.usc.edu (david
>broudy) wrote:
>
>>And
>>as long as assholes are free to carry signs that say "God says Kill Fags",
>>I reserve the right to voice my own opinion on the matter.
>
>Sure you do. But how many "God Says Kill Fags" signs have you seen in
>real life in the last year, and how many "Darwins" did you sit behind
>in traffic today?
>
I've seen three "God Says Kill Fags" signs in real life in the past
year. And since I don't drive, I didn't see any darwins today.
What do I Win?
--
This message has been brought to you by Steve Kleinedler.
In Chicago, Planned Parenthood is located at 14 E. Jackson Street.
Its phone is 312/427-2276. They provide information about repro-
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Tim Meehan
>I've seen three "God Says Kill Fags" signs in real life in the past
>year. And since I don't drive, I didn't see any darwins today.
Just hold up your own sign: "If He REALLY Did, He Would Have Done It
Already."
Fight fire with fire...
--
Tim Meehan - Toronto +1 (416) 449-2369 | My ont.general
du...@interlog.com - http://www.interlog.com/~duke | includes Bob Allisat.
Tim Irvin
>V-X <v...@teleport.com> wrote:
>: On Sat, 24 Feb 1996 00:31:20 -0800, bro...@mizar.usc.edu (david
>: broudy) wrote:
>
>: >And
>: >as long as assholes are free to carry signs that say "God says Kill Fags",
>: >I reserve the right to voice my own opinion on the matter.
>
>: real life in the last year, and how many "Darwins" did you sit behind
>: in traffic today?
>
>: Me: none. two. (and that's in Bend, OR)
>
>Well, I saw a sticker saying "Have you slugged a queer today?" on a
>teenager's backpack at the mall about six months ago. And I haven't seen
>a single Darwin fish in over a year.
I've seen a *buttload* o' Darwin fishes--far more than the "original"
fish. I think V-X is right in one respect--this kind of religious mockery
and snubbing would not be tolerated by this "enlightened" bunch if it
mocked *any* other relatively mainstream religion (thus ruling out,
for the time being, the Moonies, the Jonestown fiasco and the Branch
Davidians).
Yet somehow, mocking Christianity is not only acceptable, it is somehow
a victory for oppressed minority interests everywhere? That is
*certainly* the message--intended or not--that seems to be coming
across from the so-called tolerant, diversity-loving denizens of asgx.
In this case, you (that's "you" in the generic sense if you like the
message sent by the Darwin fish) are *not* being intolerant of
intolerance--you are being intolerant of *many*, *many* good people
who just happen to be a part of a group which includes a few intolerant
assholes who may *deserve* the abuse.
Rubbing the intolerance of a few Christians in the noses of all
Christians is not terribly unlike using the high crime rate among
young black males to bash them all. And we wouldn't *ever* want
to do that, would we? Should we? Of course not. How is *this*
that much different, other than that someone somehow can "choose"
their religion or lack thereof? Not much.
Replace the Christian symbol with a sacred symbol in Judaism or
Islam, and let's see how many people here think it's cool. What if I
bastardized the Star of David to offend all Jews? Funny, isn't it?
I think it's incredibly offensive--primarily because it not only targets
the in your face, "kill a queer for Christ"-type (so-called) "Christians,"
but also the standard plain-vanilla garden variety who has no desire
to join OR, the Moral Majority *or* the Christian coalition.
I can see the humor in the thing...yet I can also see how others can get
very offended by it. And it is *that* principle--that beyond the humor,
it is perfectly okay to offend a lot of Christians because a few of them
are idiots who need to be strongly opposed politically--which bothers me
about this issue.
--
Tim Irvin, irvi...@sundance.sjsu.edu, CS Grad Student, San Jose State Univ.
Geek, Husband, System Administrator, Softball Maniac, Numismatist, et cetera
"The net.persona formerly known as ziggy29" ** Team OS/2 and proud! **
WWW ==> http://www.mathcs.sjsu.edu/student/irvi2187/
Jim Miller Jr.
>I've seen a *buttload* o' Darwin fishes--far more than the "original"
>fish. I think V-X is right in one respect--this kind of religious mockery
>and snubbing would not be tolerated by this "enlightened" bunch if it
>mocked *any* other relatively mainstream religion (thus ruling out,
>for the time being, the Moonies, the Jonestown fiasco and the Branch
>Davidians).
>
>Yet somehow, mocking Christianity is not only acceptable, it is somehow
>a victory for oppressed minority interests everywhere? That is
>*certainly* the message--intended or not--that seems to be coming
>across from the so-called tolerant, diversity-loving denizens of asgx.
I read this, and thought it pretty good, except...
[snip]
>Rubbing the intolerance of a few Christians in the noses of all
>Christians is not terribly unlike using the high crime rate among
>young black males to bash them all. And we wouldn't *ever* want
>to do that, would we? Should we? Of course not. How is *this*
>that much different, other than that someone somehow can "choose"
>their religion or lack thereof? Not much.
I guess this depends on what you mean by "bash them all." If it's a joke,
you laugh it off. If you're really all that offended, you probably need
to take yourself a lot less seriously. If it's really a mean spirited snipe,
then one should have the self confidence to blow off the bastard saying
it.
>Replace the Christian symbol with a sacred symbol in Judaism or
>Islam, and let's see how many people here think it's cool. What if I
>bastardized the Star of David to offend all Jews? Funny, isn't it?
I would probably think so. I was raised Christian and I find the Darwin Fish
funny. Then again, I work at taking as good as I give. It's a necessary
survival skill. I just seem to have no tolerance whatsoever for people who
can't take a joke, even if it is mean sprited in nature. Now I'll have to go
back and read Dennis Miller's rant on this topic again
(http://www.nd.edu/~jlaurie1/PC.html).
>I think it's incredibly offensive--primarily because it not only targets
>the in your face, "kill a queer for Christ"-type (so-called) "Christians,"
>but also the standard plain-vanilla garden variety who has no desire
>to join OR, the Moral Majority *or* the Christian coalition.
>I can see the humor in the thing...yet I can also see how others can get
>very offended by it. And it is *that* principle--that beyond the humor,
>it is perfectly okay to offend a lot of Christians because a few of them
>are idiots who need to be strongly opposed politically--which bothers me
>about this issue.
Maybe it's just a reaction to growing up in the redhead.geek.cabal, but if I
don't see any humor in it, I blow it off. I don't have the time to sit around
being offended by something as simple and inconsequential as words.
"Sticks and stones..."
Jim "Infinite intolerance for the thin skinned" Miller
|Jim Miller, Jr. <jmil...@lsfcu.org> Systems Administrator|
|Liberty Savings Federal Credit Union Jersey City, New Jersey USA|
|Eagle Scout - '88 Vigil - '94 Meechgalhukquot-"Redheaded One"|
|Advisor, Explorer Post 348 Hudson Liberty Council, BSA|
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Holly Eng
> Now true, some people want to run out and buy a Darwin-fish cuz certain
> varieties of Christians get on their nerves. I confess to a momentary
> impulse in that direction myself, this week. But that probably has
> something to do with the fact that a county here just passed a law saying
> that the public school system has to use public money to add material to
> the curriculum presenting "creation science" in biology classes. :P
>
>
>
> **katchoo
>
Woah woah woah!!! Scary... makes me angry... hope that gets sued into
the Supreme Court with non-Kristian Koalition justices on the bench...
Holly
dan snider
>
>The Darwin fish isn't making fun of Christianity, it's making fun of
>Christians who wear their hearts on their sleeves by plastering their
>cars with religious kitsch that the rest of us have to stare at when
>we're stuck in traffic.
And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't
bump its butt every time it jumped.
-dan
Stanton J Wonn
: The Darwin fish isn't making fun of Christianity, it's making fun of
Then perhaps you might be able to explain why most people I know who have
them are so anti-Christian? I'm asking an honest question here, not
trying to bait you.
: Christians who wear their hearts on their sleeves by plastering their
: cars with religious kitsch that the rest of us have to stare at when
: we're stuck in traffic. I'd say that whining about Darwin fish is more
So would you also be offended at my rainbow and leather pride flag
stickers on my back bumper? No? Why not? Aren't I wearing my sexuality
on my sleeve? Or perhaps you think that's different in some way?
: of a "bratty, shit-your-pants thing" than displaying them. "Mommy,
: she's making fuuuuun of da fishie!" Christians are not a persecuted
: minority the way that most other religions in the US (from Jews to
: Wiccans) are. When they start feeding you guys to lions again I'll
: start getting all weepy-eyed about people bastardizing your fishie.
Maybe that won't happen anytime soon, but your contempt for Christians is
all too obvious, particularly in that last line.
Stan
queer and Christian
--
Stan Wonn------------http://www.primenet.com/~wonn---------Tucson, AZ USA----
-----------------wo...@u.arizona.edu or wo...@primenet.com---------------------
"Free speech on the Internet? As if! That's so *1995*!" --me
be...@cais3.cais.com
: v...@teleport.com (V-X) wrote:
: >BTW, even if I'm not much of a Christian these days, I still think the
: >mockery of that symbol is a bratty, shit-your-pants thing, and I think
: >if the symbol belonged to some other faith I'd get a lot less argument
: >about that.
: The Darwin fish isn't making fun of Christianity, it's making fun of
: Christians who wear their hearts on their sleeves by plastering their
: cars with religious kitsch that the rest of us have to stare at when
: we're stuck in traffic. . .
Actually, I have one of the symbols. Well I had two, I gave one to the
Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Southern Virginia. His wife wrote me
to tell me that all the other bishops make fun of him now. :)
I do not display it to mock christianity. I display it to show my belief
in evolution over creationism, in what I consider to be a humorous and
clever manner.
I realize the symbol dates back to when christians were persecuted and
the fish along with the sign of the cross was one way of secretly
identifying yourself as a christian without fear of discovery. But it's
also become in my mind the symbol of creationism. If creationists have
the right to display their belief, I have just as much a right to display
mine. I am genuinely sorry that V-X sees this as me being bratty. That
wasn't my intent, but I'm not taking it off my car either.
--
Beth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Bill 1567 to repeal section 502 of the CDA). You can get your senators'
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According to the Communications Decency Act, these are the words you may
no longer use in your Internet correspondence: Shit, piss, fuck, cunt,
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sucker, mother-fucker and tits, to protect your children as well as
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Tim Irvin
: For the record, last week I saw a Christian Fish *and* a pro-choice
: bumper sticker on the *same* car.
Thank you.
Let this be a lesson to all of you who think that stereotyping and
prejudice are wrong until we're talking about something you don't
personally like.
--
Tim Irvin, irvi...@sundance.sjsu.edu--CS Grad Student, San Jose State Univ.
Geek, Husband, System Administrator, Softball Maniac, Numismatist, et cetera
"The net.persona formerly known as ziggy29"
New & Improved for '96 ==> http://www.mathcs.sjsu.edu/student/irvi2187/
Stanton J Wonn
: sticks in my craw, so to speak (what exactly is a *craw*?). I have no beef
: with the Christian fish...it's when I see it on the same bumper as 'Kill a
: Queer For Christ', 'AIDS Kills Fags Dead' and 'Abortion is wrong...unless
: it was Hillary's Mother' bumper stickers (I'm not making it up: I've seen
: several different variations on this theme...) that I have a problem with
: so-called Christianity (...'forgiveness' anyone?).
FWIW, I would also have a big problem with it. That would tell me that
this was a person who used Christianity as a sort of spiritual tire iron
by which he/she could bash people who were different from him/her.
Someone who calls himself/herself a Christian and displays the sort of
attitudes you describe, it seems to me, missed the basic point of the faith.
Or, as the writer Anne Lamott once wrote, "You can know that you've
successfully created God in your own image when it turns out that God
hates all the same people you do." :)
: I, for one, am all in favor of wearing your heart on your sleeve: let's
: everyone know exactly where you stand. However, it's just a deep-seated
: prejudice of mine (yeah, I admit it...) that someone with a rainbow or
: pink triangle or star of David would be a lot more tolerant of my own
: admittedly radical beliefs than someone with a Christian fish would...
Depending on the Christian, I'd probably agree.
: Agreed...it seems a little harsh to me...
Thanks for the independent confirmation. :)
: Christianity, to me, could be be a beutiful faith if it weren't for the
: contemporary demogogues destroying it's true meaning. My lingering
: prejudice stems from my association of publicly demonstrative Christians
: with the hate-mongering, intolerant members of the Christian Coalition who
: are insistant on equating abortion with murder (would a miscarriage be
: manslaughter then...?) and the demonization of homosexuality and
: single-parent families. I don't hate Christians who practice what they
: preach, it's just that when they preach hatred that I tend to get a little
: emotionally worked up...
I understand what you mean. The thing is that the more "tolerant" Christians
don't tend to be quite so vocal about their beliefs, though.
: >Stan
: >queer and Christian
: Have you, honestly, ever felt alienated by the 'church' because of your
: orientation?
Certainly. That's why I generally don't attend church, because I
wouldn't feel welcome a lot of places. But that's obviously different from
the question of whether I believe in God, which I do. If I weren't a
Christian, the only other spiritual tradition that would appeals to me at
all would be Reform Judaism, which has been more progressive on gay issues
(at least in recent years) than just about any Christian group.
Stan
Tim Meehan
>Kim Rollins (cir...@manta.omnigroup.com) wrote:
>: The Darwin fish isn't making fun of Christianity, it's making fun of
>Then perhaps you might be able to explain why most people I know who have
>them are so anti-Christian? I'm asking an honest question here, not
>trying to bait you.
Maybe I'm isolated up here in the frozen north, but I can't recall ever
seeing a Darwin fish. I have seen a *few* of the regular Jesus fishes
though, and on car interiors our car has had a St. Christopher medal for
years...
Elizabeth D. Lauzon
system you had in your car. See that's what I get for being an atheist -
I'm so out of touch.
Beth
JosepK
Rollins) writes:
<snip>
>Darwin fish are a reaction against a) wearing your religious/political
>affiliation on your bumper
I proudly display my religious affiliation on my bumber in the form of
multiple Chicago Bulls stickers....
Greg Campbell
(Please don't hate me because I'm on AOL...)
Planned Parenthood, 1201 N. Clark St., Chicago IL, (312)266-1033 for birth
control and abortion counseling;The Women's Center, 5116 N. Cicero Ave.,
Chicago IL, (312) 283-1400 for abortion alternatives.
Abort the CDA: support Senate Resolution 1567
Jim Miller Jr.
: bumper sticker on the *same* car.
This isn't unusual. I have several devout Catholic friends (including a priest
or two) who have this same outlook. They are pro-choice, but they think
everyone should make the same choice - life. I know very few Catholics who
actually believe in using the force of law to accomplish this goal. They actually
believe in education, guilt, and religious morality to provide what the
intellectually lazy pro-life crowd wants to legislate.
Arend J. Abel
>Tim Irvin <irvi...@sundance.sjsu.edu> wrote:
>>steven r kleinedler (srkl...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>>
>>: For the record, last week I saw a Christian Fish *and* a pro-choice
>>: bumper sticker on the *same* car.
>>
>>Thank you.
>>Let this be a lesson to all of you who think that stereotyping and
>>prejudice are wrong until we're talking about something you don't
>>personally like.
>Of course, said car could simply be owned by someone with a particularly
>twisted sense of humor.
>RPRPRP - never, NEVER, jerks anyone's chain.
>--
Well, if this is a troll, so be it. I see nothing remotely
inconsistent with the two symbols: one being a display of the
Christian faith, and the other an objection to government-dictated
rules of conscience. As I recall my cathecism, if someone *made* you
do the religiously correct thing, it didn't count. Rather, you had to
freely choose it through faith.
Arend (roughly paraphrasing St. Augustine and Dostoyevsky's "Legend of
the Grand Inquisitor," I think)
"A page of history is worth a volume of logic"
Kim Rollins
>On 29 Feb 1996 06:48:40 GMT, cir...@manta.omnigroup.com (Kim Rollins)
>wrote:
[deletia]
>You know, this is the first argument I've ever gotten on this that I
>bought. You actually softened a position of mine on something.
Really? And here I thought I was just pointing up the obvious. I'd
accept your compliment in the spirit it was offered, but of course, the
spirit it was offered in was that of setting me up for the big slam-ola:
>>When they start feeding you guys to lions again I'll
>>start getting all weepy-eyed about people bastardizing your fishie.
>
>And then you went and ruined it by being mean and creepy.
Sorry. I wasn't aware that ingestion by lions was still such a risk for
you Christians that the very mention of it would freak you out. I'll
begin drafting my letters of protest to Caesar immediately.
yours in mean creepiness,
KR
Tim Irvin
Rollins) wrote:
> Sorry. I wasn't aware that ingestion by lions was still such a risk for
> you Christians that the very mention of it would freak you out. I'll
> begin drafting my letters of protest to Caesar immediately.
I'm sorry if a Christian once took a shit in your Cheerios, but
*really*...Do you always consider a group of closed-minded, hatemongering
fools, and not only assault *more* than just those who deserve it, but
also overgeneralize and spew hate just like they do??
In other words, do you rail against a few assholes who unfairly cast
negative stereotypes by acting like an asshole and unfairly casting
negative stereotypes?
Now maybe I should rail against all meese, because a few of them parade
around dressed funny. Using your crystal-clear stereotyping logic, I
can assume that they are all ostentatious morons flaunting their sexuality
in all of our faces...even if it's only a *few* of them--the most
generally "offensive" to society who are a small percentage of the total
but get all the media attention. See the parallel?
Why *shouldn't* all meese be offended by such stereotyping? Why shouldn't
all Christians? Why shouldn't decent people hate to see such hate
spread over such a wide group, most of whom don't deserve it, whether
meese or Christians? Yet I'll bet you think it's okay to spit on
*one* entire group for the dickhead actions a few, but not the other?
Hypocrite.
--
Tim Irvin, irvi...@sundance.sjsu.edu, CS Grad Student
San Jose State University, 1996 Big West Men's Basketball Champions
WWW: http://www.mathcs.sjsu.edu/student/irvi2187/index.html
Stanton J Wonn
: I like peas. Brussels sprouts, on the other hand, suck. :)
See? Liberals and conservatives *can* get along! :)
Stan
truly hates Brussels sprouts...
Micky DuPree
Rollins]:
: I'm sorry if a Christian once took a shit in your Cheerios, but
: *really*...
Heh. My vote for pithiest imagery of the last two weeks (which is
how far I'm behind again <sigh>).
: Now maybe I should rail against all meese, because a few of them parade
: around dressed funny. Using your crystal-clear stereotyping logic, I
: can assume that they are all ostentatious morons flaunting their sexuality
: in all of our faces...even if it's only a *few* of them--the most
: generally "offensive" to society who are a small percentage of the total
: but get all the media attention. See the parallel?
Not in this particular case, no. I was all set to post a few lines
for the Christians, since anyone who makes an honest stab at living
up to Christian ideals has my deepest respect, but then I stubbed
my toe on this. I can't quite see ostentation being a good parallel
with creationism in science classes. Especially not in a society
where many het couples are kissy-snuggly in public and in the media,
and hets flaunt their sexuality in our faces (Oscar ceremonies,
anyone?). An offense to taste isn't in the same league as sectarian
evangelism masquerading as science.
I think it's more to the point that mocking someone else's revered
symbols just because a third-party moron has coopted them runs the
risk of letting the morons unravel the fabric of basic respect for
the rest of us. I mean, who here would, for example, go around
hanging crucifixes upside down because a local Christian group had
gotten creationism into the locally used biology texts? I'm not
saying the fish symbol has the same status of reverence as a
crucifix, but it seems to mean something good to some decent
people, and at least for now, that's good enough for me.
: Why shouldn't decent people hate to see such hate spread over such a
: wide group, most of whom don't deserve it, whether meese or Christians?
Well spoken.
-Micky
Douglas Lathrop
: I can't quite see ostentation being a good parallel
: with creationism in science classes. Especially not in a society
: where many het couples are kissy-snuggly in public and in the media,
: and hets flaunt their sexuality in our faces (Oscar ceremonies,
: anyone?).
Is that what Whoopie Goldberg was doing? Flaunting her sexuality in my
face? If so, can I set up an appointment for moose-assimilation, like,
right now?
--
D O U G L A S P. L A T H R O P
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A.S.G-X Poster Child - Two words: Bon Vivant! - The NeuFreud of the USENET
Visit Stately PAPER CUT MANOR! http://www.primenet.com/~lathrop/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
||| "Doug, when you go over to the Dark Side, could you let me know?" |||
Micky DuPree
: Micky DuPree <mdu...@tiac.net> wrote:
:: I can't quite see ostentation being a good parallel
:: with creationism in science classes. Especially not in a society
:: where many het couples are kissy-snuggly in public and in the media,
:: and hets flaunt their sexuality in our faces (Oscar ceremonies,
:: anyone?).
:
: Is that what Whoopie Goldberg was doing? Flaunting her sexuality in my
: face? If so, can I set up an appointment for moose-assimilation, like,
: right now?
Stole your remote, poured sand in your wheels, and forced you to
watch, did she?
-Micky
Katie Sehorn
Douglas Lathrop <lat...@primenet.com> wrote:
>If so, can I set up an appointment for moose-assimilation, like, right now?
Dang it! (crosses something off a list) Options for female elks
just seem to be constantly dwindling recently....
- Katie
--
*** Send meaningful responses, hugs and flames to seh...@willamette.edu ***
"Phillips Screwdriver: Milk of Magnesia, vodka" - Steve Hawley
--- Dole for Pineapple '96 ---
Douglas Lathrop
: In article <4jjk7e$7...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
: Douglas Lathrop <lat...@primenet.com> wrote:
: >If so, can I set up an appointment for moose-assimilation, like, right now?
: Dang it! (crosses something off a list) Options for female elks
: just seem to be constantly dwindling recently....
Not necessarily. If you can put Whoopi Goldberg out of my mind.
That shouldn't be too difficult.
Marco Anglesio
: In article <4jjk7e$7...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>,
: Douglas Lathrop <lat...@primenet.com> wrote:
: >If so, can I set up an appointment for moose-assimilation, like, right now?
: Dang it! (crosses something off a list) Options for female elks
: just seem to be constantly dwindling recently....
No they're not ... *leer*
m.
----------------------------------------------------Funny how secrets travel,
marco p. anglesio I'd start to believe if I were to bleed
3m...@qlink.queensu.ca Thin skies, the man chains his hands held high
http://cspo.queensu.ca:8080/~anglesio Cruise me blond Cruise me babe
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