Taking the plunge...
Bryan Minihan
I'm somewhat new to the group, although I've been lurking for awhile,
but I've finally got a couple of real questions to ask, and hope
someone out there can help.
My wife and I were "bitten" by the cruising thing awhile back -
neither of us knows exactly what it was that made us want to live on a
boat so much. I will say (because this might help with answers to my
questions below), that we don't believe we're "glassy eyed" and that
cruising is nothing but travelling to exotic ports and sipping pina
coladas on the beack (and getting caught in the rain).
Nope...at least we hope not. Instead, once the idea caught on, like
many others (we've heard), we buried ourselves in books on everything
from single-handed sailing around the world, to diesel and electronics
repair, to how to care for pets on a boat the size of a smallish
winnebago. We subscribed to the SSCA bulletin and read it avidly; we
got Cruising world and drooled profusely.
We read lin and larry pardey (and bought the videos - alas but no
t-shirts), tanya aebi's rite of passage, about donald street and
joshua slocum, tips and tricks by hundreds (and thousands) of current
cruisers on dozens of topics. Heavy weather sailing, light-air
sailing, getting becalmed in the pacific and heaving to in north
atlantic storms. We've read and are prepared for the following: doing
laundry "old school", varnishing teak til our nails bleed and having
to do it all over again because the damn stuff didn't set right,
engine repairs in the face of hurricanes, head repairs in the face of
3 year olds with diarrhea. We believe we're prepared for the good and
the bad - as much as we can be "prepared" without actually knowing
first hand what we'd be in for.
Then of course, we'd like the occasional pina colada on the beach, to
make all of the above seem worth it.
Of course, there were two main problems with our plan: money and the
lack of sailing skill. I'll mention money in a sec. Ya see, neither
of us knew how to sail - had ever been on a sailboat before (except
the boat show in annapolis - talk about pavlov's dog). We thought
that might hinder us a little, so we bought a Cal25 small-cabin
cruiser and have done several day-trips around the chesapeake. We
took a weekend sailing class and practiced new skills afloat. We've
spent the night on our little Aloha, brought the dog aboard to see
what he thinks (he thought *not*, if you're curious), and I've had my
hand at several repairs already. I've replaced several electrical
components, worked on the engine a smidge, repaired the standing and
running rigging, and we both scrubbed the hell out of our aging
fiberglass boat - inside and out. Neither of us would say we're
certified blue-water cruisers yet, but we've done as much as we can,
considering we got married, had a son, have switched jobs twice (and
lost them both) and moved - twice. We're a cinch for the "most number
of stressful events in one year" award. Let's just say we've gotten
our feet wet.
The money was the second problem. Our plan all along was to follow
the leads of the Paysons and many others who, once they decided they
had to move on a boat, set a plan in action, started saving money like
crazy to build up a kitty, bought or retrofitted a cruising vessel of
sufficient size to carry themselves and family, sold most, if not all,
of their possessions, and moved aboard. Practically everyone we read
about had to move ashore eventually for short-term work projects, or
full-time, as they were done with cruising. We see that as an
inevitability that can't be controlled - but our plan has been to save
up as much money as we could while working in our somewhat lucrative
jobs (this was during the Internet boom) until we felt we had enough
money to live off the interest at about an 11% rate per year. That
meant we had to have about 3-500,000 in the bank before we could buy
the boat and move. We actually started only 13 months ago.
We have just over 35,000, so far.
So much for planning, right? To be honest, this was one of those
"five year" plans. Since our son, Cooper, was born, we even
considered stretching it to seven years. We weren't in any huge
hurry. We were making good money and thought of it as our retirement
plan, albeit a lot earlier than most (I'm 31 and my wife is 29).
So here we are today. Six months ago, my wife and I decided that I
should go back to North Carolina and finish my bachelor's degree (I'm
a software developer and she's a technical manager). My startup
company was quickly losing steam (and money), so I thought I was about
to lose my job. My wife's company (a big 5 consulting company) was
spreading rumors about outsourcing the technical support, so we
thought it was a good time to make the move. I had arranged with my
company to work "remotely" down in North Carolina, and travel up to
Maryland whenever I was needed. My wife was still on maternity leave,
so was going to look for work when her official leave would have
ended. In February, two days after moving into our modestly priced
one-story ranch house in Cary, I got the call that my company was
going "dormant" and that I'd get my last paycheck in two weeks.
We'd sold our last house in a seller's market in downtown DC, so we
had the funds from the sale to live off. At first, I believed I'd
find work easily - as most others have thought after being laid off
post-911. I don't believe I'm the hottest ticket to land in the job
market, but I just assumed I had marketable skills, and that *someone*
had to be hiring. Unfortunately - they're hiring - just not web
developers, network engineers or graphic designers (I do all three).
Since neither of us could find work, we decided to start our own
business. It's an idea we'd thrown around for years and finally had
the chance to try it out. We do small business outsourcing work -
kind of like the little elves who helped the shoe maker, we do a lot
of the dirty work for people who want to start a business. Everything
from admin work to web development to payroll management. We've had a
very successful client so far, and have gotten much better at making
our funds spread a little further.
However - and this (finally) leads me to our dilemma - the economy
isn't looking much better, lately, and the funds from our last house
are about half what they were (we have about 25K left). We still have
the 35K saved for our "boat dream", and we put $20 down on our current
home.
There's about a 20% chance that, if events continue to progress as
they have been, we'll be selling our house in about 3-6 months. That
will leave us moving in with our parents - and *still* out of work.
We're working several angles to get clients for our business, and have
a few more ideas up our sleeves for generating revenue, but we're
faced with having to plan for the eventuality that we could very well
be homeless by the fall.
So here's our idea. We'd like "do the boat thing" early. If we
liquidated *everyrhing* that won't fit on a boat, we'll have about
60K. With this, we'd like to buy a medium sized cruising sailboat and
move aboard. Until our son is out of diapers, and until we have our
second one (soon), we'll be sticking pretty close to the US, as
neither of us relishes the idea of storing used diapers for extended
voyages. This also means we'll pretty much be tied to marinas and
shore-power and what not for the immediate future.
As much as we dislike this idea (we'd really rather "go cruising" than
"go liveaboard"), it seems to make a certain economical sense. We
wouldn't have the mortgage, thus no eviction fear and no moving in
with parents (assuming we find the right boat). Being tied to a dock
would mean more expenses (roughly the same living expenses as a house,
I gather, depending on how much we can scrimp), but on the other hand,
we'd at least have access to land-based jobs, and clients, if we get
them. Our business's web site (shameless plug -
http://www.binary-press.com) runs itself and is paid for through next
June. We have a PO box that can be forwarded, a business line that
can be changed, and our clients (so far) are self-generated or
referred by word-of-mouth.
So we believe it's possible. It won't be as comfy or fun as cruising
the south seas or going wherever we want, whenever we want, but then
again, what's the reality of cruising life? It's at least as much
work as it is play, right?
The real question I'm writing to ask is this: For a family of three -
soon to be four, would a 34 foot sloop be a "good idea"? I'm
intentionally making the question vague and subjective, because I'd
like people's opinion as to whether or not we'd absolutely go bonkers
living on a boat this small.
The original plan, of course, was to get a 40' or greater sized boat,
but again, looking smaller yields more benefits, for this change in
plans. Being novice sailors and cruisers, we'd be better able to
handle a smaller craft, the marina fees would be less, and we'd
hopefully be able to go more places in her - eventually.
We've got our eye on a Formosa 34' ketch, found in the classifieds,
which runs for about 25K. We've read the reports about deck peeling
and lousy mechanicals and electricals (both of which I can repair - or
learn to repair - or get used to crying a lot). But the center
cockpit in this size of a boat makes the space seem eNORMous,
comparatively.
So - what do you think? Are there any other boats in this range we
should be looking for? I've read tons of posts about different makes
and models that can be found "anywhere", but the best I've been able
to come up with are Irwins, Hunters, an occasional custom sloop, or
racing boats in desperate need of a cabinet-maker. Several other
good-sized boats have appeared in our search, but they all seem to be
way too shallow for our cautious appetites - the O'day 34 seems great,
except for the centerboard and shoal draft. Even though we don't plan
to take the to the high-seas immediately, we'd really prefer a full or
modified full-keel, windows that can take a rough sea (or be covered
somewhat), a cockpit that suits its purpose, but won't sink the boat
when full of water (we don't throw that many parties). As mentioned,
we *love* the idea of the center cockpit on a boat this size, but how
drastically does the excess windage of one of these change its
maneuverability?
Any help that anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. My
apologies for the long-winded post - we've been "saving up" for awhile
=].
Bryan and Rachel Minihan
"Cruiser Wannabes"
Terry K
the galley passageway was an ideal way to daysail. On an
extended passage, tiny kids need attention, even when the off
watch partner is tired, and has to rest for next watch. Unless
you have a nanny, you will be unable to handle the strain of much
more than 2 day passages. My opinion.
With your finances, you will be liveaboards on the way to Panama,
or whatever, anchoring out. You will wash cloth diapers in salt
water, and MAY have enough fresh for a rinse. Salt water causes
boils.
I also fear that the only reason to have livestock aboard is to
save on refrigeration for meat. Learn to enjoy canned chicken,
spam, and dried beans soaked in seawater. Learn to catch fish.
Systems to combat these circumstances cost big time.
I am sorry to have to say that babies and pets do not belong 'at
sea', more so for smaller boats. So, I would recommend you keep
day jobs, sponge off your parents, invest well, save hard, day
sail to tune your skills, and wait 5 years, brainwashing and
programming all the way. Your kids will need a decent education.
I am sorry to be a wet blanket, but if you cannot refute this
logic here, you will not do it at sea. The first child welfare
officer to inspect you had better be pleased with the wholesome,
informative home school setup and child welfare arrangements.
Some dockmate will undoubtedly report you the first time you
squabble.
You will probably do better as weekend cruisers in a 25 footer
for a few years. Small boats make weather training so much more
realistic! Work at getting a pension, or buying an annuity. Even
then, as for me, it won't be easy. I'm still working at paying
for college for 2 kids, and I don't have a degree myself yet.
Think maintenance costs 5 years out. Forget roller reefing.
Perhaps you could persue a career as a sail, tent and awning
mobile repair vessel, with plumbing and pumpout services? With
your tech background, perhaps marine electrical quals would
enable you to marina hop? Resident techs get discounted dockage.
I hope this helps. If you can do it, do it. A college kid might
ship as unofficial crew-nanny sail trainee for semester length
holidays / hiatus.
Small boats with centre cockpits sail like dogs. Defouling 40
footers costs lots, unless you can hooka scuba yourself and even
hire yourself out for fellow sailers. Some diver friends of mine
said they could live off of free lobster in season, just from
cutting nets off of fishing boats at the dock.
My babies thought that filling the cockpit with water was a fine
way to go swimming, and summer rainstorms were a fun way to
shower!
You could maybe do it as an itinerant tradesperson to rich folk.
Best luck.
Terry K
--
Terry K - My email address is MY PROPERTY, and is protected by
copyright legislation. Permission to reproduce it is
specifically denied for mass mailing and unrequested
solicitations. Reproduction or conveyance for any unauthorised
purpose is THEFT and PLAGIARISM. Abuse is Invasion of privacy
and harassment. Abusers will be prosecuted.
Bryan Lee
take a look at a book called Babies on Board, it has lots of good info
for sailing with children. Many people say that children do not belong
on boats, that it is to dangerous. Personally, from the studying I have
done, I think my kids are in more danger flying down the freeway in my
car then in my boat. You said you read allot of the Pardeys books, not
sure which one it was in, but somewhere they said in all there years of
cruising, they meet many cruisers with children, and only heard of one
with an accident, and that was because they failed to follow proper
caution and left there child, who had not climbed before in the cockpit
with out a harness for "just a minute" by himself and he when over. As
horrible as the story is, and as sad as it makes me feel, I am
constantly hearing of car wrecks that kill children, or half to whole
families. For some reason people in America seem to see driving as an
expectable risk, even though children die every day in cars, but if you
take your child on a boat you are reckless and endangering you child.
And with all the stuff going on in the schools these days, drugs, sex,
killing, and poor education's, I would greatly applaud anyone who took
there kid on board and sailed away. They are much safer there then in
cars on our streets or walking down the street. But for some reason,
because it is "unnecessary" it is not expectable. OK, enough ranting
about that, just my 2.5 cents.
On the other side, living aboard at the dock with children while working
full time seems to be to stressful and possibly more dangerous. You
have all the work of living on board, with out the benefits of travel
and freedom from the 7-6 job. I cant imagine having to put life jackets
on the kids every day to take them on and off the board, or clipping
them in to harnesses constantly while working full time. I am stressed
and tired enough at the end of the day, I would not want to deal with
that without the benefits of cruising to compensate. I see my self
getting sloppy with the safety issues. You late for work, gatta take the
kid on shore for what ever reason, you scoop him up and run off without
the lifejacket, your neighbors dog trips you as your scurrying down the
dock.... Opps... But that's just my opinion for myself, you may do
better. Also I could not see my wife dealing with staying "home" with
the kids on a small boat all day everyday without any of the benefits of
cursing.
I agree with some of what Terry said, you have enough to get started,
get a boat, while between jobs live aboard and "cruise" locally for a
month or so, anchoring out, scrimping and saving and see what you think.
Later you can bum from mom and dad, especially if they like your boat
and you can help even things out by taking them out/ letting them use
the boat, etc. Scrimp and save for a little while longer to build up the
kitty some more and go for a longer trip. Possibly work on some of the
job ideas Terry had.
As for the type of boat, I used to be all into the perfect performing
cruiser, but that has changed for me. As long as it is safe,
performance is not as high on my list as it used to be. You just have
to learn to sail within your limits, stay in sheltered areas when the
weather is nasty, realize that it could take a few extra days to go
somewhere up wind, but that is part of what cruising is all about.
Safety is a big one for me, I don't care if I can go much of anywhere
in a storm, so long as the boat stays upright and in one piece.
Most people won't understand the drive to wash dirty diapers in sea
water, and take shorter passages and hall lots of fresh water to rinse
them in just to be able to sail, but if you are willing to do the work,
it can be done.
Of course this is all coming from someone still living in his house,
doing as you are and collecting all the info I can while saving to by a
cruising boat big enough for me and my two children, so its probably
really not worth a grain of salt, but hey, that's the beauty of the
internet right? You can spread all your unfounded wisdom for free, and
get allot of people to tell you your and idiot... What a world we live
in.... :)
Bryan
"Cruiser Wannabe as well"
HLAviation
>The real question I'm writing to ask is this: For a family of three -
>soon to be four, would a 34 foot sloop be a "good idea"?
I don't know....that'll be pretty tight, esprecially with # 4 on the way. Won't
be impossible with a fat 34, but it would be nice to get a bit bigger.
>We've got our eye on a Formosa 34' ketch, found in the classifieds,
>which runs for about 25K. We've read the reports about deck peeling
>and lousy mechanicals and electricals (both of which I can repair - or
>learn to repair - or get used to crying a lot). But the center
>cockpit in this size of a boat makes the space seem eNORMous,
>comparatively.
Center cockpits also add a safety factor with small children. Not a huge one,
but you need every edge you can get. Taiwanese boats always seem to give you
the most space for the dollar even if they aren't the prettiest or fastest out
there. I assume that with the CC this boat has a seperate aft cabin which is a
good thing when you have children (you need to be able to insulate yourselves
from them occasionally) It also allows you to create an entire cockpit
enclosure (dodger, Bimini, side curtains...) which also helps to keep them
little rascals safely aboard. It's amazing how much more room you get just
moving up to say a 37' or bigger boat. Something like this may serve your
family quite well.
http://www.yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_full_detail.jsp?url=&boat_id=
804038&units=Feet¤cy=USD&access=Public&listing_id=12944
There's lot's of boats out there, good luck on the dream.
http://hometown.aol.com/hlaviation/
Jere Lull
>My wife and I were "bitten" by the cruising thing awhile back ....
><snip> I will say that we don't believe we're "glassy eyed"...
>Nope...at least we hope not. <snip>
>
Having the dream IS a bit glassy eyed.
>Of course, there were two main problems with our plan: money and the
>lack of sailing skill. <snip> We thought
>that might hinder us a little, so we bought a Cal25 small-cabin
>cruiser and have done several day-trips around the chesapeake.
>took a weekend sailing class and practiced new skills afloat. <snip>
>
Good start, you're learning lots of needful skills.
>The money was the second problem. Our plan <snip>
>meant we had to have about 3-500,000 in the bank before we could buy
>the boat and move. We actually started only 13 months ago.
>
>We have just over 35,000, so far. <snip> (I'm 31 and my wife is 29).
>
><snip of job problems>
>
>Since neither of us could find work, we decided to start our own
>business. <snip> We've had a
>very successful client so far, and have gotten much better at making
>our funds spread a little further.
>
>However - and this (finally) leads me to our dilemma - the economy
>isn't looking much better, lately, and the funds from our last house
>are about half what they were (we have about 25K left). We still have
>the 35K saved for our "boat dream", and we put $20 down on our current
>home.
>
>There's about a 20% chance that, if events continue to progress as
>they have been, we'll be selling our house in about 3-6 months. That
>will leave us moving in with our parents - and *still* out of work.
>We're working several angles to get clients for our business, and have
>a few more ideas up our sleeves for generating revenue, but we're
>faced with having to plan for the eventuality that we could very well
>be homeless by the fall.
>
>So here's our idea. We'd like "do the boat thing" early. <snip>
>The real question I'm writing to ask is this: For a family of three -
>soon to be four, would a 34 foot sloop be a "good idea"? <snip>
>
>Any help that anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. My
>apologies for the long-winded post - we've been "saving up" for awhile
>=].
>
>Bryan and Rachel Minihan
>"Cruiser Wannabes"
>
Might be possible, might not. Really depends on how important cruising
is for you.
Except that you have the kids, I'd suggest moving onto the Cal that I
didn't see mentioned as sold. You really don't know what type of boat
you will want and can afford until you've been sailing more. But I think
you can get one that'll serve you well for 5-7 years if you're honest
with yourselves at the onset. What I'm thinking of is well served by
your being in NC, though I don't know where Cary is... I suspect it's
mid-state, a drawback.
As background: Dockmate of ours had what sounded like a low-level
factory worker job. Rather than pay rent, he put a down payment on a
nice 42' boat and lived on it year round. Meant some darned cold winters
on the Chesapeake, but 3 ceramic heaters kept the boat warm enough. Dock
expenses for the year were probably under $3k. He didn't buy much and
nothing large, because he didn't have the room. Every extra dollar
either fixed something required, paid off the mortgage, or got invested,
in that order. When he got laid off, he took the 6 months unemployment
to put on the finishing touches, socked most of the $ into the cruising
kitty, and left the week after the last check. Last I heard, he was
enjoying life with his girlfriend somewhere south.
If the two (3.5?) of you were to do similar, I believe you could realize
that dream pretty quickly. How much "stuff" do you get that wouldn't
belong or fit on a boat? Living aboard, you'd start establishing some
spending controls that I suspect you didn't need in the flush times.
To that end, I'd suggest finding a boat that you can live in at the dock
that incidentally can be sailed. Prime consideration is good bunks and a
place for the kids' & their play toys. Second, the galley and other
living arrangements, including a small TV & vcr and of course your
computer(s). One good sized shower/head; a second one would be a slight
bonus but not really necessary. Though I believe hanging lockers are
another name for sail lockers -- clothes don't last if they're hung up
on a moving boat -- you'll want decent ones. You're looking more for a
floating apartment than anything else. Also want something that can be
kid-proofed fairly easily. I've seen some 34' boats that would serve
well, and they'd be affordable enough for you even at reduced income.
(though I expect the economy to turn around fairly soon -- our company's
looking for programmers after the first downsizing in the company's 20+
year history and nearly a year long hiring freeze.)
At the same time, find a marina that allows liveaboards and is in a good
cruising area. Oriental/New Bern area is where I'm thinking. Suspect
you'll want telephone and possibly high-speed internet service. I've
seen DirecTV on some docks and that gives you decent d/l speeds though
you're limited to modem u/l speeds.
Then you can see if you can stand to be cooped up on a boat all the time
and if you can keep things tidy enough to actually take her out for a
spin every once in a while. You'll also probably sock a lot more $ away
than you thought you could. [Suspect if you'd done it during the fat
times, you wouldn't be asking now, but would be out there.] Long
distance cruisers average something between 90 and 95% of their time on
the hook, which isn't that much different than you'd be experiencing.
To be frank, I'm not sure you're up to it now. If I had a different
feel, I might have said "Go for it!". You're young and that $50k or so
that you have could last a few years if you went on a small boat. I am
fairly certain I could find a boat similar to our beloved Xan in
sailaway shape for $7-8k and a frugal family could cruise on her fairly
well for about $10k/year. You wouldn't be living large, but you'd be
living "out there".
For my retirement plans, I'm shooting for about $300k & a "swallow the
hook" untouchable fund for a house and about a year's living expenses in
a target "land" retirement area. That would keep us cruising
"comfortable" at a 5% return. We could live comfortably (for us) on land
for less than your 11% return (which is a little optimistic in my
experience), and our target retirement area (when chosen) will have a
lower cost of living than where we are. If both my wife and I were a
little more optimistic, we'd be heading south in November in Xan and
after some months or a year, we'd evaluate whether we wanted a bigger
boat or some place on land.
--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 sailing from Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ annotated pics) http://members.dca.net/jerelull/BVI.html
Bob Cook
...at least not yet... not without more money, not without kids, not with a
pet, not on a 34 footer, and not without more sailing experience
instead, earn and save more money, add to your sailing experience with
frequent 1-2 week sailing trips, and then eventually buy and refit a 40-50
footer.
Bob
www.Ocean-Pro.com
Professional Yacht Delivery
Offshore Sailing Instruction
Naples, FL 800-329-4884
Douglas King
> Hello all!
>
> I'm somewhat new to the group, although I've been lurking for awhile,
> but I've finally got a couple of real questions to ask, and hope
> someone out there can help.
>
> My wife and I were "bitten" by the cruising thing awhile back -
> neither of us knows exactly what it was that made us want to live on a
> boat so much. I will say (because this might help with answers to my
> questions below), that we don't believe we're "glassy eyed" and that
> cruising is nothing but travelling to exotic ports and sipping pina
> coladas on the beack (and getting caught in the rain).
Living on a boat is not the same thing as cruising. And it's almost the
exact opposite of sailing, none of the liveaboards I know go sailing for
fun beause it's a week's job to get the boat ready to get underway.
>
>
> Nope...at least we hope not. Instead, once the idea caught on, like
> many others (we've heard), we buried ourselves in books on everything
> from single-handed sailing around the world, to diesel and electronics
> repair, to how to care for pets on a boat the size of a smallish
> winnebago. We subscribed to the SSCA bulletin and read it avidly; we
> got Cruising world and drooled profusely.
>
> We read lin and larry pardey (and bought the videos - alas but no
> t-shirts), tanya aebi's rite of passage, about donald street and
> joshua slocum, tips and tricks by hundreds (and thousands) of current
> cruisers on dozens of topics.
Sounds good, it would be smarter to get the books and videos from the
library. Saving money has to become a habit to make this work....
actually, you need several habits that are opposite to common American
culture....
>
> Of course, there were two main problems with our plan: money and the
> lack of sailing skill. I'll mention money in a sec. Ya see, neither
> of us knew how to sail - had ever been on a sailboat before (except
> the boat show in annapolis - talk about pavlov's dog). We thought
> that might hinder us a little, so we bought a Cal25 small-cabin
> cruiser and have done several day-trips around the chesapeake. We
> took a weekend sailing class and practiced new skills afloat. We've
> spent the night on our little Aloha, brought the dog aboard to see
> what he thinks (he thought *not*, if you're curious)
Sailing with a dog takes a lot of patience. Some dogs take to it readily,
some do not, but *any* dog would prefer your company to being left behind.
We cruise on a 19' boat with an 85# retriever who also thinks *not*. But
he copes fairly well. He has been on and around boats since he was a
puppy. You don't have that option with your dog, so try to realistically
apppraise what things are the most difficult and upsetting for him and get
him over each hurdle with a lot of patience.
> ..... and I've had my
> hand at several repairs already. I've replaced several electrical
> components, worked on the engine a smidge, repaired the standing and
> running rigging, and we both scrubbed the hell out of our aging
> fiberglass boat - inside and out. Neither of us would say we're
> certified blue-water cruisers yet, but we've done as much as we can,
> considering we got married, had a son, have switched jobs twice (and
> lost them both) and moved - twice. We're a cinch for the "most number
> of stressful events in one year" award. Let's just say we've gotten
> our feet wet.
Sounds like it.
>
>
> The money was the second problem. Our plan all along was to follow
> the leads of the Paysons and many others who, once they decided they
> had to move on a boat, set a plan in action, started saving money like
> crazy to build up a kitty, bought or retrofitted a cruising vessel of
> sufficient size to carry themselves and family, sold most, if not all,
> of their possessions, and moved aboard. Practically everyone we read
> about had to move ashore eventually for short-term work projects, or
> full-time, as they were done with cruising.
What they don't mention, most of them, is that living on board a boat is
like camping under your kitchen table. If you are accustomed to hot
showers and place to spread out the morning paper with a cup of coffee,
life on board a boat gets wearing after a while. Also, there are many
projects that you have to tear up the inside of the boat so much you'd be
better off living elsewhere while work is in progress.
> We see that as an
> inevitability that can't be controlled - but our plan has been to save
> up as much money as we could while working in our somewhat lucrative
> jobs (this was during the Internet boom) until we felt we had enough
> money to live off the interest at about an 11% rate per year.
That's rather optimistic. Right now interest rates are low, a more
realistic figure might be 7% to 8% and that's with some risk. Investing
intelligently ("intelligently" being defined as "being able to consistly
make gains in all market climates") is a whole 'nother field of expertise.
> That
> meant we had to have about 3-500,000 in the bank before we could buy
> the boat and move. We actually started only 13 months ago.
>
> We have just over 35,000, so far.
That's pretty good for year 1, especially with the kid(s) in the picture.
> So much for planning, right? ......(snip)......... If we
> liquidated *everyrhing* that won't fit on a boat, we'll have about
> 60K. With this, we'd like to buy a medium sized cruising sailboat and
> move aboard. Until our son is out of diapers, and until we have our
> second one (soon), we'll be sticking pretty close to the US, as
> neither of us relishes the idea of storing used diapers for extended
> voyages. This also means we'll pretty much be tied to marinas and
> shore-power and what not for the immediate future.
>
> As much as we dislike this idea (we'd really rather "go cruising" than
> "go liveaboard"), it seems to make a certain economical sense. We
> wouldn't have the mortgage, thus no eviction fear and no moving in
> with parents (assuming we find the right boat). Being tied to a dock
> would mean more expenses (roughly the same living expenses as a house,
> I gather, depending on how much we can scrimp), but on the other hand,
> we'd at least have access to land-based jobs, and clients, if we get
> them.
Actually, living on a boat can be quite a bit cheaper than living in a
house. I'm not an expert in how to make it work but there has already been
some pretty good advice along these lines flung your way.
It means you'll have escaped from that Containment Area for Relocated
Yankees, though.
Finding "the right boat" is trivial. There are tens of thousands of boats
that would suit your purpose for sale, it's a big-time buyers market out
there. In your financial position, financing might be more of a problem.
In any event, it's good that you're not in hurry, that what causes the
most expensive mistakes.
> Our business's web site (shameless plug -
> http://www.binary-press.com) runs itself and is paid for through next
> June. We have a PO box that can be forwarded, a business line that
> can be changed, and our clients (so far) are self-generated or
> referred by word-of-mouth.
>
> So we believe it's possible. It won't be as comfy or fun as cruising
> the south seas or going wherever we want, whenever we want, but then
> again, what's the reality of cruising life? It's at least as much
> work as it is play, right?
Yep.
>
>
> The real question I'm writing to ask is this: For a family of three -
> soon to be four, would a 34 foot sloop be a "good idea"? I'm
> intentionally making the question vague and subjective, because I'd
> like people's opinion as to whether or not we'd absolutely go bonkers
> living on a boat this small.
Nobody can tell but you yourself. And some 34-footers are bigger than
others. I'd be tempted to go up in size just a little bit, however each
increment of size brings exponential increases in costs... if you can find
a roomy-enough 34 footer that will sail acceptably, then go for it!
>
>
> The original plan, of course, was to get a 40' or greater sized boat,
> but again, looking smaller yields more benefits, for this change in
> plans. Being novice sailors and cruisers, we'd be better able to
> handle a smaller craft, the marina fees would be less, and we'd
> hopefully be able to go more places in her - eventually.
If your target is "eventually" to go to the South Seas, then you might
consider living aboard something cheap, as a means of saving up money;
rather than buying a boat to go to the South Seas and then living aboard
it.... that's putting the cart before the horse IMHO.
>
>
> We've got our eye on a Formosa 34' ketch, found in the classifieds,
> which runs for about 25K. We've read the reports about deck peeling
> and lousy mechanicals and electricals (both of which I can repair - or
> learn to repair - or get used to crying a lot). But the center
> cockpit in this size of a boat makes the space seem eNORMous,
> comparatively.
>
> So - what do you think?
Very few of the Taiwanese boats are really built for passagemaking, and
(again IMHO) this isn't one of them. However it is roomy & cheap and
relatively good looking; so if that's you want, go for it.
> Are there any other boats in this range we
> should be looking for? I've read tons of posts about different makes
> and models that can be found "anywhere", but the best I've been able
> to come up with are Irwins, Hunters, an occasional custom sloop, or
> racing boats in desperate need of a cabinet-maker.
All the mass-produced boats are even less suitable passagemakers. What
you're looking for is low-cost housing, self-transportable by water (under
favorable circumstances).
> Several other
> good-sized boats have appeared in our search, but they all seem to be
> way too shallow for our cautious appetites - the O'day 34 seems great,
> except for the centerboard and shoal draft.
Shoal draft can be great. How many places do you want to go? The deeper
your draft, the fewer you can get into. Shoal draft opens up a huge range
of anchorages closer to the dinghy dock for convenience, further up remote
gunkholes for isolation and storm protection, and enables you to go up and
down the ICW without spending too much time aground.
> Even though we don't plan
> to take the to the high-seas immediately, we'd really prefer a full or
> modified full-keel, windows that can take a rough sea (or be covered
> somewhat), a cockpit that suits its purpose, but won't sink the boat
> when full of water (we don't throw that many parties). As mentioned,
> we *love* the idea of the center cockpit on a boat this size, but how
> drastically does the excess windage of one of these change its
> maneuverability?
Depends on who you listen to. Personally, I think most center cockpit
boats sail rather poorly, and the few that sail well are the expensive
ones like Moody and Oyster. But then I grew up on high-performance racing
dinghies, not a common background among cruising sailors.
>
>
> Any help that anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. My
> apologies for the long-winded post - we've been "saving up" for awhile
> =].
What you have in mind is certainly possible, an you're in a better
position with a little money in your pocket than some who have started
this route. Considering all the advice about how to make money while
cruising, it's true.... but until you can make higher wages as a boat
electrician or canvasmaker or whatever, that you are already making as a
computer expert, you should stick with that. But keep working on the other
possibilities!
Fresh Breezes- Doug King
Bryan Minihan
After a bit of soul-searching, and yet one more run-through of the
finances and the probable reality of what it would be like to live on
a boat now, as opposed to when we really have the funds to do so...my
wife and I decided to stick it out and stay ashore for the time being.
I can't go further without thanking those of you who replied to my
extremely long-winded letter. The responses were very kind and
level-headed - very akin to the advice we normally give ourselves.
That's probably another reason we've come to love (and yearn for) the
cruising life so much - the people usually seem to be just the kind of
folks we'd like to be.
Like I said, my wife and I are normally the cautious sort, and have
done well by our own decisions so far. I guess the urge to chuck off
the lines and try it on our own was a result of months of frustration,
and the realization that one of the biggest hurdles to our making
cruising a reality was removed for us - namely, we'd both quit our
jobs. The lesson to be learned, of course, is that anyone can quit
his or her job, and yes it's difficult, but that doesn't necessarily
mean everything else is in place to make the move from land to sea.
If you're curious, here are some other obstacles I left out, which
also contributed to our decision to stay (not a really tough decision,
after all): We have 3 cats, 2 of which we probably would have had to
donate to family, in order to move on a boat. We've both moved 4
times in the last 3 years, and I think we probably would have killed
each other if we had to do it again this summer. Our son is 8 months
old, and we haven't yet conceived his sister or brother. We'd like
two children, and the idea was to have the 2nd one on the boat
(baaaaaaaaad idea from the very outset, but we were weighing all
options and briefly considered it a compromise for a so-called
cruising life).
So there you have it. In July, I'm planning to sail our Cal25 down
the ICW from Annapolis with my dad. I feel comfortable with the
Chesapeake, and have lived with NC weather from a beach-goer's
perspecitve for 15 years or so. I'm hoping the experience will teach
me a lot about sail-handling in various conditions, anchoring out, and
a host of other things that we'll have to rely on, "some day".
This leads me to another few questions, which I'll post in a new
thread, but thanks again for all of the input...I loved the email I
got with this first line: "You are NUTS!!!". It was really
appreciated, and actually affected our decision and added the dose of
rationality we needed in our discussion.
Sincerely,
The Minihans (Bryan and Rachel)
(still "wannabe", but will suffice with "somedaywillbes")
Richard
on welfare (between jobs) and do OK. IF it comes to that, it just may.
You'll still get by. Perhaps not in the style to which you'd like to become
accustomed to. . . but you can get by.
You might find yourself in senseless debates with yourself on which fuel
will do cheapest in your kerosene lamps, but then, you've been bitten.
Steve: BTW the electricians on the job tell me there are tiny fluorescent
lights now which can run off solar and batteries CHEAPER than lamps and
wicks. Startup costs are more, but running 2-3w fluorescents off batteries
is very, very cheap and cost effective.
R
<snip>
"Bryan Minihan" <bjmi...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vco5kuo7fi05h2cgm...@4ax.com...
Richard
business from a boat. My interests would be closer to developing marine
systems.
Lots of dreams, lots of possibilities.
R
<snip>
"Bryan Minihan" <bjmi...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vco5kuo7fi05h2cgm...@4ax.com...
> Hello all!
>
> I'm somewhat new to the group, although I've been lurking for awhile,
> but I've finally got a couple of real questions to ask, and hope
> someone out there can help.
>
<snip>
Bryan Minihan
a lot about the electronics on our current boat. I went up to
Annapolis to "check things out" after a bad storm and found 2 feet of
water in the bilge - one of the primary reasons we need to move the
boat closer to home. I had to replace several components, but was
able to salvage several others by diligent drying of their insides
and...lots of patience. We were probably saved from a greater loss by
the amount of ventilation I left in the cabin (no mold or rot
anywhere, lord knows how long that water had been sitting there).
Anyway - I've been very interested in finding out what kind of work
could be done as a "computer guru" among sailing boats. My first
guess is that I could find some work among liveaboards who must remain
tied to the land and work via modem and/or DSL. On the other hand,
we've read scores of letters from cruisers carrying laptops and
requiring help on various PC-related tasks.
But then...I think about the kinds of budgetary constraints we'll be
under when we finally go cruising, and would rather provide that kind
of help (when I can) to fellow cruisers for free, and save the profit
motive for those who can afford it.
Yet another avenue we've approached, in our quest to make this a
reality.
Bryan
On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:08:31 -0700, "Richard" <RRa...@Spame.not>
wrote:
Dick
>should be looking for?
I read your post that you decided not to go but thought you should hear from
someone that went. We have an Orion 27 made by Pacific Seacraft. (there is one
forsale in Portland for $37,500) We moved aboard when my daughter was almost 2
and went to Mexico when she was 3 and again when she was in first and second
grade.
What you will find is that your wife will be taking care of the kids while you
sail. It is singlehanding with someone to talk to. A freind of ours said that
his wife was so bad that he hoveto when it was her turn at watch so she could
watch the kids even at night.
My daughter is in school now and she took the Iowa Basic Skills test for 6th
grade this year and got a 99 for her core total so I don't think it has hurt
her any.
Small kids sleep at night on boats without waking up. You get a lot more rest
and boats are more kid proof than houses.
We met a lot of familys cruising so don't think that there are not others out
there.
Dick
S/V Morning Star