Aeration necessary over winter?
John
I plan on overwintering a couple of small Koi here in my zone 4 Colorado
Mountain setting. Is an aerator necessary? I have a clump of cattails in
the pond which has standing dead stalks during the winter freezeover. Is
this sufficient to allow for gas exchange? Fish do survive up here in small
natural ponds over the winter.
Thanks
John
Gale Pearce
Gale :~)
"John" <@starband.net> wrote in message
news:xLt99.4674$7b.159...@twister1.starband.net...
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
over for winter. aeration is more important that a heater. actually, good aeration
will keep a small hole open all winter. Ingrid
MISSYMAGICGIRL
now I don't need to worry about the winter or air for the koi's.
Sacha
Jim
I assume your Koi are small, as that's a heavy fish load for a pond
that size. I hope you have adequate filtration and are prepared to
cull a few out when they grow bigger.
Jim
Zone 8a - Dallas, Texas
Pond, Veggie Filter, Pond Maintenance & Dallas Pond Tour Pics:
http://community.webshots.com/user/dallas75248
Vaughn
"MISSYMAGICGIRL" <missyma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020825095834...@mb-cg.aol.com...
The moving air should keep an air hole open. You do realize that the
ability to add oxygen is dependent on water surface? A six inch whole with
an aerator won't change out much more oxygen than a six inch whole with out
one. The bubbles are for looks the real work is disturbance of the water
surface.
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Nedra
We are concerned here with getting rid of the gases that form on the bottom
of the pond in the winter. That is why we need the air hole in the ice -
for exchange of the gases.
Nedra
www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
"Vaughn" <sail...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:umhu708...@corp.supernews.com...
Vaughn
"Nedra" <nedr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:jhda9.7352$ob2.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Vaughn,
>
> We are concerned here with getting rid of the gases that form on the
bottom
> of the pond in the winter. That is why we need the air hole in the ice -
> for exchange of the gases.
>
> Nedra
EXACTLY MY POINT. You can't exchange as much gas with a six inch hole as a
12 inch hole. The gases in winter are the same in summer only less since
they don't eat and put waste in as much. Everything slows down in the
winter. I used to scuba dive under the ice this was 12 inches no holes. Not
much going on at that temp I'm not sure all the gases are really present
since things anerobic action would be minimal, etc. Fish still breath so the
need OXYGEN which is exchanged at the open hole and CO2 would be displaced.
Normal it would be used by algae but at 40 degrees not a lot of aglae.
Nedra
small leaves that blow into the pond in late fall - early
winter. These leaves rot, causing an increase in the
gas. The 6 inch hole that has been mentioned is
created by an airstone which is dangled about 4 or 5 inches into the pond.
The increase in turbulence is
what creates the hole in the ice.
Btw, please don't *Shout* at me.
Nedra
www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
"Vaughn" <sail...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:umj156t...@corp.supernews.com...
Vaughn
> The gases are much more in winter due to lots of
> small leaves that blow into the pond in late fall - early
> winter. These leaves rot, causing an increase in the
> gas.
Leaves rotting in water requires an anerobic reaction. Doesn't happen much
at 40 degree. Wooden ships are found in fresh and salt water which is cold
as if they were just sunk. Leaves foul the water but I'm not sure that
there is a lot of gas production as they would have in a compost pile. If
you have a reference please post it.
As far as shouting. I capitalize for emphasis. Caps can be shouting they
can be emphasis, don't be so touchie.
John
provide a path for gaseous exchange. I am trying to avoid running an aerator
all winter as the system, including electrical connections, could end up
under several feet of snow here in Colorado. Since fish survive in ponds
here in the winter, there must be some natural gas exchange occurring
without mechanical aeration.
John
"Nedra" <nedr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:jhda9.7352$ob2.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
John Rutz
John wrote:
>I have read that bundles of straw placed in the pond before freezing will
>provide a path for gaseous exchange. I am trying to avoid running an aerator
>all winter as the system, including electrical connections, could end up
>under several feet of snow here in Colorado. Since fish survive in ponds
>here in the winter, there must be some natural gas exchange occurring
>without mechanical aeration.
>
>John
>
John
I have noticed that in my Z5 pond that the Ice around the edges next to
the liner will melt a bit on sunny days leaving a 1/4 to 2 in non ice
area I still leave a pump and an air pump running to asure gas
exchange I leave the pump running till and if its output freezes and
no more water is moving this has happened only once in 4 yrs
>--
>Carolann and John Rutz
>
>Email fuer...@lobo.net
>
>See my pond at:
>http://www.fuerjefe.com
>
>rec.ponds Frequently Asked Questions
> http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
>
>
>
>
K30a
here in the winter, there must be some natural gas exchange occurring
without mechanical aeration.<<
That's because old Mother Nature is smarter than us ;-)
Most of her ponds have large amounts of water compared to fish numbers. She
encourages predators to eat their fill. Any place where the fish have gotten
out of balance there will be fish kills over the winter.
k30a
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
water, it is an oxidizing agent of toxic organics like hydrogen sulfide. bacteria
are very adaptable and are happily churning away at winter temps.. as is algae.
Ingrid
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
oxgen into the pond. my big sucker air pump is set up exactly like that and it goes
all winter without being dug out. in natural ponds there is some water running into
em all the time. and there are always areas of rotting vegetation in the shallows
where the ice is thin to non-existant. in wisconsin we routinely have big fish die
offs in hard winters.. and it is the big fish that die too. Ingrid
Snooze
> ability to add oxygen is dependent on water surface? A six inch whole
with
> an aerator won't change out much more oxygen than a six inch whole with
out
> one. The bubbles are for looks the real work is disturbance of the water
> surface.
>
It's a common fallacy that the airpump disolves oxygen into the water. The
ammount of oxygen exchanged this way is rather insignificant. Most of it is
exchanged at the surface. While a 6" hole in the ice is not much, the
airpump creates disturbance which keeps the hole from freezing over, and
aids in the exchange. It also circulates water, so more water comes in
contact with the air.
Sameer
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
the entire physics department in stitches when I told em that people thought this.
Just think about this a minute. why WOULD oxygen NOT dissolve in water "under" the
water.. are the bubbles so tight assed that they cannot give up the oxygen when it is
under water? I mean what strange twist of physics would explain the idea that oxygen
does not dissolve IN the water. And why do people use pure oxygen with fine sintered
glass airstones to oxygenate deep transport tanks for fish? Ingrid
Jagath Samarabandu
>No. You dont
OK. Everyone stand back (whips out calculater). Lets see if some math
can help us.
Lets say our air pump puts out 30 GPH of air (e.g. OASE Pond-air 30
model). Thats 8.572 cubic mm/sec. Lets also assume that our bubbler
creates bubbles that are all exactly 0.5mm in diameter (you know what
they say about 'ass-u-me', but we got to start somewhere).
So, each bubble is 0.06545 cubic mm and we have 133 bubbles/sec. That
looks right. So we must be on the right track.
Lets also say that a bubble takes one second to rise to the surface.
That means we have 133 bubbles at any given time.
Each bubble has an area of 0.7854 sq. mm and this means we have 104 sq.
mm total surface area due to bubbles.
If you take your average 6" hole, it has 18,241 sq. mm area. So, you can
see that the additional 104 sq. mm due to bubbles is rather
insignificant (0.5%). Even if we were to double the total area (6" hole
+ bubbles), we need a factor of 175 increase in the area of bubbles. But
if we were to just make it 8.5" hole instead of 6", we can double the
area rather easily.
This tells me that if surface area is the determining factor in gas
exchange, then bubblers have no noticeable effect. Of course we made a
lot of ssumptions, but I think we are not far off.
I'm pretty sure any holes in my analysis will be promptly shown.
That concludes todays lesson on math in everyday life (otherwise known
as engineering).
Jagath
Extra credit: Plot the surface area of bubbles as a function of bubble
radius and the depth of bubbler :)
--
Jagath at canada dot com is where I can be reached
Lee Brouillet
Of course, I'm math challenged (ask Stacy Millions, *he'll* confirm that for
ya!) Think I'll go dust off my abacus . . . ;o)
Lee
"Jagath Samarabandu" <email_i...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3D6FC1F1...@nospam.com...
mad
mad
--
A lot of people want to serve God,
but only in an advisory capacity.
Unknown
> From: "Lee Brouillet" <l...@dmi-tpa.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.ponds
> Date: 30 Aug 2002 15:01:11 -0500
> Subject: Re: Aeration necessary over winter?
>
> Think I'll go dust off my abacus . . . ;o)
>
> Lee
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Gregory Young
I remember when calculators first came out, and kids weren't allowed to use
them in school. (At least until they knew how to do things longhand first,
then they could use them in college, etc).
Boy things have changed! (If you doubt that watch what happens to check-out
cashiers when their terminals go downand they try to add things manually!!)
Happy ponding,
Greg
--
gey...@acsu.buffalo.edu
gey...@adelphia.net
gyo...@KaleidaHealth.org
"mad" <mf...@Hate.Crapn.Spam.com> wrote in message
news:B9955A7F.12D18%mf...@Hate.Crapn.Spam.com...
Snooze
but the amount they do, is rather insignificant compared to the amount of
water in contact with the atmosphere, at the hole in the ice. As Jagath
already explained with his basic physics lesson. The water if left alone,
would only oxygenate the first couple inches of the water.
The same is true with waterfalls, and fountains. While these all do aid in
rather minor way of creating additional surface area for an air/water
exchange, their biggest benefit is the circulation they create, by drawing
water from the bottom of the pond, and bringing it to the surface. The goal
here is to try and oxygenate all the water, not the surface.
The only way possible for the bubbles to have a significant effect on the
oxygen levels in the water, is if the water was deep enough to collapse the
bubble. (Boaters know and hate this cavitation effect), but none of our
ponds are deep enough to create this.
I suspect your friends in the physics department came to the conclusion by
using intuition, rather then actually calculating the result. As i'm sure
your collegues will agree, often in physics the answer is completely
different from what most people would imagine the answer to be. If you ask
them to verify Jagath's analysis i bet they would concur rather then
disagree, if they agree, you owe me a tub of Ben and Jerry's cookie dough
ice cream.
Sameer
<dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com> wrote in message
news:3d79ca7a...@news-server.wi.rr.com...
dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
1. have a huge surface area and put air gases (including oxygen) directly into the
water
2. lighten the water and bring it to the surface creating a bottom to top
circulation
3. results in the degasomg of CO2, hydrogen sulfides and ammonia from the water
carried to the top
Ingrid
mad
> degasomg
--
There are two rules for ultimate success in life:
(1) Never tell everything you know.
> From: dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
> Newsgroups: rec.ponds
> Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 04:08:20 GMT
> Subject: Re: Aeration necessary over winter?
>
> 3. results in the
>>>degasomg
> of CO2, hydrogen sulfides and ammonia from the
> water carried to the top
mad
Snooze
> ingrid, what is this word?
>
> > degasomg
>
>
It's degassing, with the right hand slightly off homerow. She's probably a
touch typist. I make the same mistake all the time, when I switch from my PC
to my Mac, as the older macs have the bumps on the "d" and "k", instead of
on the "f" and "j"...just to drive us touch typists nuts. (newer macs now
follow the same convention as pc keyboards)
Sameer
mad
to learn. i should have figured it out.
mad
--
If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.
> From: "Snooze" <sman...@earthlink.net>
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Newsgroups: rec.ponds
> Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 20:41:05 GMT
> Subject: Re: Aeration necessary over winter?
>
>
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Sunny
still peek LOL. Sunny,NY
Mac user since wayyyyyy back. Think Different!!
mad
to because i'm not that good! i have to proff everything i type or it vomrs
oit like this. LOL
mad
--
Cats are a puzzlement. You never know how they're
going to ignore you.
Milton Berle
> From: Sunny <Sunny...@twcny.rr.com>
> Organization: Road Runner
> Newsgroups: rec.ponds
> Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 00:12:15 GMT
> Subject: Re: Aeration necessary over winter?
>
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dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
Sunny
> hey, sunny! i love my mac, too. and i'm a touch typist, but i look. i have
> to because i'm not that good! i have to proff everything i type or it vomrs
> oit like this. LOL
> mad
Hi Mac Buddy!
I'm a touch typist too mad, which only means I touch the keys! Not always
in the right order. Thank goodness for Spell Tools!! Sunny,NY
Jerrispond
I can't use them ....they only spell in "yankee" :o) Jerri
http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond
Sunny
I have a sister who lives in Alpharetta, so I know how to spell y'all! lol,
Sunny, Central NY
mad
mad
--
"Thinking is a momentary dismissal of irrelevancies."
R. Buckminster Fuller
> From: dr-...@wi.rr.xx.com
> Newsgroups: rec.ponds
> Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 16:14:39 GMT
> Subject: Re: Aeration necessary over winter?
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
mad
mad
--
"Never miss a good chance to shut up."
Will Rogers
> From: Sunny <Sunny...@twcny.rr.com>
> Organization: Road Runner
> Newsgroups: rec.ponds
> Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:26:30 GMT
> Subject: Re: Aeration necessary over winter?
>
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mad
mad
--
There is no greater sorrow than a frozen heart.
Chinese Proverb
> From: jerri...@aol.com (Jerrispond)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.ponds
> Date: 03 Sep 2002 13:33:25 GMT
> Subject: Re: Aeration necessary over winter?
>
>> . Thank goodness for Spell Tools!!
>
> I can't use them ....they only spell in "yankee" :o) Jerri
>
> http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond
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Rob
"MISSYMAGICGIRL" <missyma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020825095834...@mb-cg.aol.com...
> I have a 1012 gallon pond with 12 koi's and I bought a Oase aeration pump
so
> now I don't need to worry about the winter or air for the koi's.
>
>
> Sacha
smaller pond with 22 various Koi & he got published in a mag devoted to Koi.
IIRC so long as the filter is adequate enough then there should be no
problems.
Rob