ultrasonic cleaning
Larry Leveen
about ultrasonic cleaning.
What application is ultrasonic cleaning appropriate for and what does it
entail (how does it work and what does the equipment cost?)?
Thanks much.
--
Larry Leveen
Velorution! The Bicycle "Freeware" Infopage
http://www.olywa.net/leveen/
Tho X. Bui
>
> I would like to decrease my exposure to harmful solvents, and am curious
> about ultrasonic cleaning.
>
> What application is ultrasonic cleaning appropriate for and what does it
> entail (how does it work and what does the equipment cost?)?
>
> Thanks much.
Do not use ultrasonic cleaning with aluminum component and aqueous
solution. That is the standard procedure for introducing hydrogen into
the aluminum for researchers of hydrogen embrittlement of aluminum (the
other techniques are plasma charging and NaOH submersion).
A quick experiment would be tossing a piece of kitchen foil into the
ultrasonic cleaner with water. The foil will disintergrate within the
half hour.
Tho
Sean Bragstad
solution. That is the standard procedure for introducing hydrogen into the
aluminum for researchers of hydrogen embrittlement of aluminum (the other
techniques are plasma charging and NaOH submersion).
A quick experiment would be tossing a piece of kitchen foil into the
ultrasonic cleaner with water. The foil will disintergrate within the half
hour.
Tho
This is very interesting and, if true, sucks! At the Interbike trade show in
L.V. I spoke at length with the owner of a company who manufactures
ultrasonic parts cleaning tanks for various industries. He didn't mention
any such effects and assured me that it was harmless to all components. Of
course, if he were a shyster, he wouldn't bother, would he? (We did speak of
WHY the bike industry is so slow to accept the ultrasonic method of cleaning
parts-maybe this is why!)
Is it possible that you speak of another process? I obviously don't have a
clue as to the chemical reactions and such...but are there different types
of solutions that could/might be in use here? I can't imagine that an
ultrasonic cleaning system would ever get very far in any industry if you
couldn't use it on aluminum...
(by the way, this company's systems start at $700 for a tank big enough to
clean/disintegrate chainrings. I don't have the info on hand, but if you're
still interested (!) I can e-mail you directly)
Thanks, Sean**********
**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****
Eric and Naomi
<Tho's explanation of aluminum embrittlement snippitty-snipped>
> I spoke at length with the owner of a company who manufactures
> ultrasonic parts cleaning tanks for various industries. He didn't mention
> any such effects and assured me that it was harmless to all components. Of
> course, if he were a shyster, he wouldn't bother, would he? (We did speak of
> WHY the bike industry is so slow to accept the ultrasonic method of cleaning
> parts-maybe this is why!)
It's pretty common to ultrasonically clean titanium parts before
assembly, especially things like bottom brackets, since it is difficult
to get all the crap out of the threads and make sure that there is no
chance of any contamination from welding.
Wasn't there a thread a while back about not cleaning chains this way?
I forget why.
Eric
Tho X. Bui
>
> >>Do not use ultrasonic cleaning with aluminum component and aqueous
> solution. That is the standard procedure for introducing hydrogen into the
> aluminum for researchers of hydrogen embrittlement of aluminum (the other
> techniques are plasma charging and NaOH submersion).
> A quick experiment would be tossing a piece of kitchen foil into the
> ultrasonic cleaner with water. The foil will disintergrate within the half
> hour.
>
> Tho
>
> This is very interesting and, if true, sucks! At the Interbike trade show in
> ultrasonic parts cleaning tanks for various industries. He didn't mention
> any such effects and assured me that it was harmless to all components. Of
> course, if he were a shyster, he wouldn't bother, would he? (We did speak of
> WHY the bike industry is so slow to accept the ultrasonic method of cleaning
> parts-maybe this is why!)
>
> clue as to the chemical reactions and such...but are there different types
> of solutions that could/might be in use here? I can't imagine that an
> ultrasonic cleaning system would ever get very far in any industry if you
> couldn't use it on aluminum...
Well, it should work well enough on steel, I think. The problem with Al
is that is is a highly reactive material that has a very protective skin
(aluminum oxide). Break that oxide (via NaOh or ultrasonic cavitation)
and you have a problem. I'm not sure about titanium as someone else
suggested, but I do have some titanium foil lying around....I'll check.
If you're really interested, I can give you reference to some of the
papers that I worked on as well as more worthwhile publications out
there. But the simplest is do the experiment above: find a small US
cleaner, drop in a piece of aluminum foil, comeback in an hour, and find
it disappeared. Kinda cool.
Tho
Jim Holly
It's just big enough to get about 5/8 of a chainring into, allowing me to
clean a crankarm and rings with only one position change. The cleaner cost
about $500 at the time. I use SimpleGreen as a solvent and can get a BB
spotlessly clean in about 45 minutes. It helps if you wipe the majority of
the grease off and spray the parts with WD40 first. When it comes to
getting gunk out of crevices it can't be beat! Nothing like throwing some
brakes or derailleurs in and pulling out parts with NO dirt left on them.
Of course, you will have to displace any of the solvent that may be in
pivot points and blind holes.
I've learned not to leave Al parts in the solution too long, definitely
not over night! It will pit or discolor the parts.
Most cleaners are made more for lab use and aren't all that well sealed
against slopping liquids. The Branson model I got is molded in white
plastic. Looks really good after a year or two of greasy hands. Look for a
SS exterior with no venting that liquids slopping over the sides can
dribble into.
Other than the price and longer processing time, no complaints. I do wish
that I could afford one of the bomber units shown at Interbike- that would
cut down the wait, at some expense to the eardrums. Did I mention that the
cleaners make an annoying buzz when running?
Cheers-
Jim
In article <leveen-2104...@bob2.olywa.net>, lev...@olywa.net
(Larry Leveen) wrote:
>I would like to decrease my exposure to harmful solvents, and am curious
>about ultrasonic cleaning.
>
>What application is ultrasonic cleaning appropriate for and what does it
>entail (how does it work and what does the equipment cost?)?
>
>Thanks much.
>
>--
>
>
>Larry Leveen
>Velorution! The Bicycle "Freeware" Infopage
>http://www.olywa.net/leveen/
--
Jim Holly
Cycles Griffon
Santa Monica, CA
Fiamme Red
$600.oo new, stainless steel. I would like to get $300.oo. e-mail me for
details if you are interested.
-tom
Tho X. Bui
> ... It helps if you wipe the majority of
> the grease off and spray the parts with WD40 first. When it comes to
> getting gunk out of crevices it can't be beat! Nothing like throwing some
> brakes or derailleurs in and pulling out parts with NO dirt left on them.
Before I was married, I used to toss greasy and oily components into the
dishwasher. Got the same effect. If I do that today, I'd be permanently
residing in the Chateau Bow Wow.
Tho
Doug Huffman
spent my career in nuclear power and frequently used US cleaning. No cautions
re: Al, but parts were only USd with engineering approval. Al was USd but it
had significant section depth (foil does not) and is will be discolored and
pitted, even w/o US with inappropriate solvents.
US cleaning of Al foil is an interesting caution but a red herring relative to
thicker parts.
In article <371E0E...@prodigy.net>,
"Tho X. Bui" <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> Larry Leveen wrote:
> >
> > I would like to decrease my exposure to harmful solvents, and am curious
> > about ultrasonic cleaning.
> >
> > What application is ultrasonic cleaning appropriate for and what does it
> > entail (how does it work and what does the equipment cost?)?
> >
> > Thanks much.
>
> Do not use ultrasonic cleaning with aluminum component and aqueous
> solution. That is the standard procedure for introducing hydrogen into
> the aluminum for researchers of hydrogen embrittlement of aluminum (the
> other techniques are plasma charging and NaOH submersion).
>
> A quick experiment would be tossing a piece of kitchen foil into the
> ultrasonic cleaner with water. The foil will disintergrate within the
> half hour.
>
> Tho
>
--
Grasping another opportunity to be wrong!
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Matt O'Toole
Tho X. Bui <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:37218B...@prodigy.net...
> Before I was married, I used to toss greasy and oily components into the
> dishwasher. Got the same effect. If I do that today, I'd be permanently
> residing in the Chateau Bow Wow.
While we're on a kitchen thread, I'll mention that 409 is a fine degreaser,
even for bicycle chains.
Matt O.
Tho X. Bui
> "Tho X. Bui" <bl...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> > Larry Leveen wrote:
> > >
> > > I would like to decrease my exposure to harmful solvents, and am curious
> > > about ultrasonic cleaning.
> > Do not use ultrasonic cleaning with aluminum component and aqueous
> > solution. That is the standard procedure for introducing hydrogen into
> > the aluminum for researchers of hydrogen embrittlement of aluminum...
> > A quick experiment would be tossing a piece of kitchen foil into the
> > ultrasonic cleaner with water. The foil will disintergrate within the
> > half hour.
> A later comment about discoloration and pitting of Al parts is of note. I
> spent my career in nuclear power and frequently used US cleaning. No cautions
> re: Al, but parts were only USd with engineering approval. Al was USd but it
> had significant section depth (foil does not) and is will be discolored and
> pitted, even w/o US with inappropriate solvents.
>
> US cleaning of Al foil is an interesting caution but a red herring relative to
> thicker parts.
Red Herring? I prefer Orange Roughy. It freezes better, and us
Midwesterners don't get a lot of access to fresh sea food...What are we
talking about?... Oh, ultrasonic cleaning.
Our work, first done in the mid 80's, showed that we can inject beyond
1000 ppm of hydrogen in thicker sections of aluminum. This is a huge
amount, and can greatly affect mechanical properties. Also, the effects
can be accumulative: the cavitation cracks the oxide, the water
disassociates and introduce the hydrogen, and when you remove the metal,
the oxide reforms and seals in the hydrogen. Everytime you do this, you
introduce more hydrogen. This is the technique I used to study the
effects of hydrogen in aluminum under radiation for a DOE fusion grant.
The entrapment of hydrogen makes it convenient to make the samples...But
I digressed:
For bike components, I'd worry about threads, thin wall areas. The use
of large US tank for frames and such are especially worse, because they
tend to be thin.
I suspect that there will be people who can do this on a regular basis
without running into trouble, after all, there are plenty of people
happily riding along on hard anodized rims even though the process
reduces the fatigue strength by half...
For myself, I don't see the point in putting your hard earned bike parts
through this since there are plenty of other better cleaning options
available.
Tho
Brian Nystrom
Jim Holly wrote:
> I use SimpleGreen as a solvent and can get a BB
> spotlessly clean in about 45 minutes.
Forty five minutes to clean a bottom bracket? You've got to be kidding! It
takes less than five minutes with a rag and solvent.
--
Regards
Brian
Jim Holly
favorite solvent? Mine's SimpleGreen and all grease and gunk is throughly
emulsified by the cleaning so I don't feel bad pouring it down the drain.
Cheers-
Jim
--