November 9, 2003
Turning Stalls and Insipient Spins
As promised, apropos to this discussion on spin entry from coordinated
turning stalls, I took a tow this morning to 5000 feet agl and
performed a series of coordinated and cross control turning stalls.
The aircraft used was a Ventus 2bx, delivered this year. I have
approximately 75 hours in this aircraft and about 525 hours total in
the model. I flew the glider at approximately 70% of the aft cg limit.
Wing loading was 7.8 lbs per square foot. All stalls were entered in
the first positive flap position.
My intention was as follows: to perform a series of turning stalls,
both coordinated and cross controlled, to determine the departure and
post departure characteristics of a modern fiberglass sailplane.
Stalls were entered gently and in a shallow bank (lower wingtip on
horizon). Whether coordinated or cross controlled, I fixed the
controls in the pre-departure position for three full seconds after
departure (that is, no attempt was made to recover immediately after
the stall break).
Once off tow I completed two clearing turns, then stalled the glider
wings level twice to establish attitude. I then entered a coordinated
shallow left turn and gently eased back on the stick. The stall broke
cleanly. The glider initially yawed about 30 degrees to the left,
dropped its nose through the horizon, then began to increase its bank
angle and gain speed. G forces accumulated and I recovered from the
spiral dive at about 80 knots and roughly 70 degrees of bank. (As
noted above, the elevator was held firmly aft and aileron and rudder
neutral until recovery was initiated.
I repeated the same maneuver to the right. The stall break was less
clean (more mushy). Development of the ensuing spiral dive was slower,
but airspeed and bank angle both accumulated until I released the
controls and initiated a recovery.
I repeated this sequence with like results.
I then entered a shallow bank turning stall (left) while skidding
slightly. As the low wing began to drop, I applied about ½ stick
travel to the right, ostensibly to raise the dropping wing. Entry into
the spin was immediate and dramatic. The glider yawed approximately
ninety degrees while dropping it nose to about 60 degrees below the
horizon. I left the controls in this position for a count of three
(one one thousand, two one thousand…) The glider completed
approximately 1.25 rotations before I initiated a recovery (stick
forward, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder, pull up from dive).
I repeated this process to the right. However, this time, I gently
accelerated the stall (achieving a slightly higher nose attitude
before departure). Once again, I skidded the turn (10 to 20 degrees),
and tried to pick up the low wing as it stalled, this time with full
deflection of the aileron. The ensuing spin entry was even more
dramatic. I was unable to measure rotation rate (even roughly) because
the glider's nose went immediately past vertical. As I lost the
horizon I became disoriented, until I looked out at the wingtip and
found the horizon again. I nonetheless fixed the controls for a count
of three. There was no noticeable g build up until I initiated a spin
recovery. Max speed during the dive was just above 120 knots, about 20
knots more than I typically see for a recovery from a fully developed
spin.
It should be noted that my glider has a flap redline of 80 knots. In
all cases, if airspeed exceeded 80 knots, I moved the flap handle to
the first negative position.
My interpretation: while the glider exhibited a yawing motion during
the coordinated turning stall, it did not auto rotate, nor did it show
any such propensity. Some pilots may find the dropping wing, yaw
motion, and reduced g force of a coordinated turning stall
disquieting, but when compared in sequence to an actual autorotation
leading to a fully developed spin, the prior is patently docile.
Height loss after an immediate recovery from a coordinated turning
stall using a release of back pressure and coordinated ailerons and
rudder could be measured in 10s of feet. The spin, however, from entry
to the bottom of the dive recovery was measured in hundreds. Loss of
height for the first spin, from entry, through development, to the
bottom of the recovery dive was 475 feet. The second: 750 feet.
Conclusions: draw your own.
Thanks for the great info.
9B
You quote figures of 475ft and 750ft for the fully
developed spiins. Do you have any figures for the spiral
dives off the co-ordinated turns? (I do note that you
delayed recovery for 3 seconds) It seems to me that
any stall in the final turn will result in hitting
the ground before recovery can be completed which bears
out what I have always said, teaching people to recognise
the approach of a stall and/or spin, and take appropriate
preventive action, is more important than teaching
spin recovery.
One final question, if a spin is entered at 300 feet
should recovery even be attempted? Are the chances
of survival greater if the glider hits the ground spinning
than if it is part recovered and 'tent pegged'? Interesting
what?
At 00:00 12 November 2003, Chris Ocallaghan wrote:
>I then entered a shallow bank turning stall (left) while skidding
> slightly. As the low wing began to drop, I applied about ½ stick
> travel to the right, ostensibly to raise the dropping wing. Entry into
> the spin was immediate and dramatic. The glider yawed approximately
> ninety degrees while dropping it nose to about 60 degrees below the
> horizon. I left the controls in this position for a count of three
> (one one thousand, two one thousand?) The glider completed
> approximately 1.25 rotations before I initiated a recovery (stick
> forward, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder, pull up from dive).
Chris,
Thanks for taking the time to post this report.
It seems that the test aircraft is very unforgiving of poor recovery
technique. Is this typical of modern 15m ships? How would it have
behaved in the same situation with a full ballast load?
When I transitioned from the ASW-19 to the ASW-28 I explored its
characteristics in turning stalls at the aft cg limit and found, just
like the 19, it was benign even with abused control inputs.
Andy (GY)
Mike
ASW 20 WA
"Chris OCallaghan" <fiveni...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:236582a0.03111...@posting.google.com...
> (one one thousand, two one thousand.) The glider completed
Don Johnstone <REMOVE_TO...@bittering.gioserve.com> wrote in message news:<bot38m$1gsfe2$1...@ID-49798.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> Excellent post, I do have a couple of questions.
> Did the glider start to recover from the spin with
> positive flap selected? My understanding is that in
> a flapped glider the first action is to zero the flaps.
> Do you think that by selecting a negative flap setting
> this accelerated the glider to a greater velocity than
> selecting zero flap would have done? (I do not know
> offhand the limiting speed for a Ventus in zero flap)
Correct, I should have added that as part of spin recovery I moved the
flap to the first negative position. Though this is not expressly
dictated in the flight manual, the ensuing dive will certainly exceed
the flap redline (including 0 degrees). And, of course, dumping the
flap will immediately decrease AOA.
>
> You quote figures of 475ft and 750ft for the fully
> developed spiins. Do you have any figures for the spiral
> dives off the co-ordinated turns? (I do note that you
> delayed recovery for 3 seconds) It seems to me that
> any stall in the final turn will result in hitting
> the ground before recovery can be completed which bears
> out what I have always said, teaching people to recognise
> the approach of a stall and/or spin, and take appropriate
> preventive action, is more important than teaching
> spin recovery.
>
Approximately 200 to 250 feet, including the 3 second delay prior to
recovery. Unfortunately, my trace from the flight is not particularly
instructive. My FR was set at 4s intervals, so it doesn't show much
detail. Height loss is interpolated from the pressure altitude trace
as rendered in SeeYou.
> One final question, if a spin is entered at 300 feet
> should recovery even be attempted? Are the chances
> of survival greater if the glider hits the ground spinning
> than if it is part recovered and 'tent pegged'? Interesting
> what?
>
That's a tough one to answer. I see your point: better to hit the
ground at 70 knots than 100 knots. In either case I suspect the
results will be the same. I suppose it a matter of whether you expire
at the scene or several hours later in an ICU. To that end, I'd always
try to recover -- your chances of survival going from miniscule to
maybe.
> >(one one thousand, two one thousand?) The glider completed
At 17:06 12 November 2003, Chris Ocallaghan wrote:
Snip
>> One final question, if a spin is entered at 300 feet
>> should recovery even be attempted? Are the chances
>> of survival greater if the glider hits the ground
>>spinning
>> than if it is part recovered and 'tent pegged'? Interesting
>> what?
>>
>
>That's a tough one to answer. I see your point: better
>to hit the
>ground at 70 knots than 100 knots. In either case I
>suspect the
>results will be the same. I suppose it a matter of
>whether you expire
>at the scene or several hours later in an ICU. To that
>end, I'd always
>try to recover -- your chances of survival going from
>miniscule to
>maybe.
>
>
>>
>> At 00:00 12 November 2003, Chris Ocallaghan wrote:
>> >(one one thousand, two one thousand?) The glider completed
Duane
I underestand completely your concerns. It's a subject that's troubled
me for a long time, and I seem prone to flip flopping. The problem
isn't so much a question of energy... you'll have less in the spin
than in the ensuing dive after recovery (both of which are nose down),
but having a "procedure" that you can apply without thinking. When
close to the ground, you simply don't have time to observe and react
to more than a few inputs. For example, if I were to cross-control the
aircraft into a stall below 300 feet, if I were over trees, I might
just lock up the controls, close my eyes, and get ready for the hurt.
But to do this I would have to overcome my rote training... that is,
if I sense a departure, I recover immediately. I'm not sure that type
of switch would be valuable. The lesson I've taken away from this
discussion is that in the pattern, the yaw string stays bolt straight.
An unexpected stall can be handled if the aircraft is coordinated. If
not, the bottom falls out quickly.
If you accept as axiomatic that a stall can happen at any speed and at
any attitude, then I have to place priority on coordination fist,
airspeed second, though both are clearly primary concerns in the
pattern.
It is a virtue, or perhaps a nuissance, of our sport, that when near
the ground, the envelope narrows significantly. Between 1000 agl and
10 agl is like climbing solo. Falling is not an option, and we need to
attune ourselves to that.
> Chris,
>
> Thanks for taking the time to post this report.
>
> It seems that the test aircraft is very unforgiving of poor recovery
> technique. Is this typical of modern 15m ships?
Of those I've flown, yes and no. Most are very resistant to stalling
if the yaw string is straight back. They will mush rathar than
departing. However, they are all intolerant of improper recovery. Note
that in my coordinated turning stalls I initiated no recovery. I
simply let the glider seeks its own path. By keeping the ailerons and
rudder neutral, I was letting the tail do its job -- that is,
providing stability. (It was my original contention that if you didn't
stick an aileron into the airstream, the stalled wing couldn't produce
enough drag to overpower the tail.)
I have always entered spins through a misapplication of the controls.
Various models differ in the amount of misuse they'll tolerate. For
example, a Lark IS-28 will spin if you stick your hand out the clear
view in a left turning stall (only a slight exageration). The Grob 103
has only a very small spin entry window -- to the point that most
pilots don't have the patience to find it and thus pronounce it
unspinnable. And yet, once in the spin, the 103 is perhaps the most
interesting. (The SGS 1-26E is, in my opinion, the ultimate spin
training platform. Easy entry (big ailerons), easy recovery (just let
go), and a very stable spinning motion that lets you get used to
attitude and rotation rate. Only disadvantage is that you'll be
teaching yourself. Start high.)
How would it have
> behaved in the same situation with a full ballast load?
So long as the CG remains the same, yes, I think so. But recovery
would, in all cases, require more altitude. Frankly, I don't do much
experimenting with water on board. I am too heavy to fly at or below
gross with full tanks, and I don't like the idea of flinging 2/3 of a
tank of water out to the tip during a spin. That assymetry would only
add to the altitude I'd eat up during recovery.
>
> When I transitioned from the ASW-19 to the ASW-28 I explored its
> characteristics in turning stalls at the aft cg limit and found, just
> like the 19, it was benign even with abused control inputs.
The 19 is a pussycat. And though I haven't flown the 28 yet, I bet
it's even sweeter.
>
> Andy (GY)
> I have always entered spins through a misapplication of the controls.
> Various models differ in the amount of misuse they'll tolerate. For
> example, a Lark IS-28 will spin if you stick your hand out the clear
> view in a left turning stall (only a slight exageration).
I must mildly object to this general characterization of the Lark, although
it's possible that they vary considerably from one IS28 to another. I have
never flown one that behaves as you describe.
The IS28B2 that I just sold (SN 102) behaved more or less as you described
the behavior of the Ventus 2bx. As such, I think of the Lark as a wonderful
advanced trainer for pilots making the transition to glass. My time in the
Lark made my first Nimbus flights very comfortable.
Bill Daniels
During my recent instructor course (last September) I had some spin
training in a PW6 (no other glider allowed to spin was available).
I found it very easy to enter as well as to recover the spin. After
that the (meta) instructor said "I guess that even if you release
all controls, it will recover", so we tried it and it recovered, then
I said "But we had the trim set for flight at max L/D, I guess that
with full aft trim it does not self recover", we tried it and it
did not self recover.
I completely agree on the point that training should more
focus on early detection and correction of incipient stall/spin
than on recovery of fully developed ones. As my previous favorite
sport was windsurfing, I developed a feeling for recognizing this
situation, because in this case, if you don't react immediately,
you can't avoid falling in water on the upwind side. I had a discussion
with a German pilot who did the same and feels the same thing.
Anyway, each time before I turn to final, I recite in my mind: "Watch your
speed and symmetry, here is the place where people kill themselves",
and I think I am going to say the same thing to my students.
There are three dangers from a stall/spin:
1. You hit something before recovery to normal flight.
2. You overstress the glider before recovery to normal flight.
3. After recovery you are not able to make a normal landing, because of
the height you have lost, or the direction you are now pointing.
It is essential to judge all these circumstances to know when a stall/spin
must not be risked.
There are four stages of an inadvertent stall/spin.
1. Avoid altogether.
2. Recognise that a stall/spin is close.
3. Recognise that the glider has stalled / is starting to spin.
4. Recover.
Too many people think that to avoid a stall/spin altogether what you need is
to be expert and quick at recognising that you are nearly stalled. The
real problem is that the glider can depart into a steep stall/spin without
any prior warning so far as the pilot is concerned; this is not because the
pilot failed to notice symptoms that the stall was close, but because there
weren't any. This is more likely to happen to a type known to readily spin
(Puchacz, IS28) but it can happen to any type (K21, Discus).
What matters is the angle of attack:
a. Angle of attack higher than the critical angle, you are stalled and
likely to have lateral instability (spin entry).
b. Angle of attack at the critical angle, you are stalling.
c. Angle of attack below the critical angle but close, you are at risk
from stalling in any gust wind gradient or shear, or due to inaccurate
flying.
If speed is low you are more likely to stall other things being equal, but
it is possible to stall at high speed, and possible to be at a very low
speed and not be stalled; what is critical is the angle of attack and not
the speed.
Inaccurate flying of itself will only stall you if you are already at a high
angle of attack, nearly stalled; the inaccuracy may tip you into the stall,
and the actual departure may be more violent and more complete. At a low
angle of attack whatever you do with ailerons and rudder will not stall you
(but it may cause a lot of extra drag, which may lead to a higher angle of
attack).
Inaccurate flying makes it more difficult to hold the desired angle of
attack, and to know if the angle of attack is increasing because it
disguises symptoms of high angle of attack. It will also increase drag
perhaps when you do not want any unnecessary loss of energy.
To avoid stalling keep the angle of attack well below the stalling angle.
How?
If you want to increase the angle of attack, you move the stick back (and
the elevator up).
If you want to reduce the angle of attack, you move the stick forward (and
the elevator down), this is why the recovery from a stall or from nearly
stalled always includes moving the stick forward.
If you are moving the stick back you are calling for a higher angle of
attack, whatever you reason for moving it back.
If you are moving the stick forward you are calling for a lower angle of
attack, again whatever your reason for moving it forward.
Therefore to be sure of avoiding an inadvertent stall/spin, part of our
flying must include monitoring stick movement and position. This is more
important than monitoring speed and change of speed (which is also
essential).
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> "Don Johnstone" <REMOVE_TO...@bittering.gioserve.com> wrote in
> message > news:bp0neh$1j6s5h$1...@ID-49798.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> <snip>
>
> We spend an awful lot of time teaching spin recovery, and rightly so. We
> seem to me, to spend less time emphasising the signs and symptoms of
> approaching stalls/spins and this I feel needs to be put right. The
> concentration on keeping balanced flight when near the ground indicates
> that the problem has been thought about and recognised. How many glider
> pilots have thought that deeply and really understand that lighting fast
> recovery techniques will not help when close to the ground? How many are
> able to recognise the onset of disaster and take recovery action before it
> happens? The people who have been posting on this thread almost
> certainly have but what of the silent ones?
>
> The final turn stall/spin claims many every year. Are we really
> approaching the problem in the right way?
>
> <snip>
>
At least we don't get that in gliders, thank goodness.
--
Mike Lindsay
BGA Website, Info for Clubs & Members, Safety, Links -
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/links.htm .
Air Accidents Investigation branch (AAIB) - http://www.aaib.gov.uk/ ,
Formal reports, Full reports, a.. No:4/73 - Trident I, G-ARPI, near Staines
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_control/documents/contentservertemplate/dft_index.hcst?n=5250&l=4 .
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.
>
> "Mike Lindsay" <mi...@sailplane.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Tey7obAoXpt$Ew...@sailplane.demon.co.uk...
> Mike Lindsay
>
"Mike Lindsay" <mi...@sailplane.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Tey7obAoXpt$Ew...@sailplane.demon.co.uk...
Most of us glider pilots have a gut reaction in bad situations to unload the
wings first. Many professional pilots apparently don't.
That said, I don't mean to congratulate us all into any reduction in stall
avoidance and recovery training.
Maybe putting the droops down again would have saved them, and/or flaps
and/or undercarriage.
As in so many accidents (eg the DC-10 at O'Hare), the pilots didn't actually
know what the problem was and didn't have the time or height to find out.
"Robert John" <REMOVE_TO_R...@robertjohnassociates.com> wrote in
message news:bpcqpf$1l5li2$1...@ID-49798.news.uni-berlin.de...