Max lift weight or RATTworks K240
PJAlchemist
as above what is the max lift off weight of a RATTworks K240. I think im going
to change my project upscale size so it's even bigger pending on the weight
this motor can handle. Oh how big is 6''? I know but is it like big like when
you see 4'' or 3'' for the 1st time from an estes kit? Also should i go for 6''
or 7.5?
Jerry Irvine
pjalc...@aol.com (PJAlchemist) wrote:
This is a "soft" motor and yo should run a little lighter than you might
with a SU K240 solid.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01ro...@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish. http://www.usrockets.com
Graham
Go to B&Q, and into the paint aisle. Pick up a tall 5 litre tub of Crown
emulsion. That's 7" diameter. If you want an idea of how big your
rocket's going to be, pick up a tapemeasure, measure the height of the
can, then stack as many cans as you need on top of each other to gauge
the size.
If nothing else, it'll be a test of how tolerant the staff at your local
B&Q are :-)
G.
UKRA #1264 L2
PJAlchemist
>
>Go to B&Q, and into the paint aisle. Pick up a tall 5 litre tub of Crown
>emulsion. That's 7" diameter. If you want an idea of how big your
>rocket's going to be, pick up a tapemeasure, measure the height of the
>can, then stack as many cans as you need on top of each other to gauge
>the size.
>
>If nothing else, it'll be a test of how tolerant the staff at your local
>B&Q are :-)
LOl my mate wroks at one so i'll do it 1st thing tomorw. Rocket would be i
dunop say if i did a 7.5x then 7.5 dai and 17 ft
Bill Rossi
>
>as above what is the max lift off weight of a RATTworks K240. I think im
>going
>to change my project upscale size so it's even bigger pending on the weight
>this motor can handle.
The Ratt K240 can lift about 10 pounds. (That means losded!) safely with a
long rail. 4" rockets work best but Loc 5.38 (like a Loc Magnum) would be ok. A
6" rocket is way too heavy.
\\\///
(O)(O)
--oOO----(__)--------------
: I WILL WORK FOR :
: ROCKET MOTORS :
:-------------------oOO-----:
|__| |__|
|~| |~|
ooO Ooo http://members.aol.com/BULLPUPP/index.html
MONTMACH
Wayne at Now Hybrids has flown R.A.T.T. K-240 with a 6" dia. 25 lb. total
weight rocket to about 2,500ft., he has been doing this for about 3 years. He
uses a 12 ft. rail and zero wind. A 4" 15 lb. rocket will get you about 5,000
to 6,000 ft.
Dave
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Griffith
NAR 14156
The R.A.T.T.-works
Monterey Machine Products
1504-A Industrial Park Street
Covina, CA 91722 U.S.A.
http://www.rattworks.com
Jerry Irvine
mont...@aol.com (MONTMACH) wrote:
> >as above what is the max lift off weight of a RATTworks K240. I think im
> >going
> >to change my project upscale size so it's even bigger pending on the weight
> >this motor can handle. Oh how big is 6''? I know but is it like big like
> >when
> >you see 4'' or 3'' for the 1st time from an estes kit? Also should i go for
> >6''
> >or 7.5?
>
> Wayne at Now Hybrids has flown R.A.T.T. K-240 with a 6" dia. 25 lb.
> total
> weight rocket to about 2,500ft., he has been doing this for about 3 years.
> He
> uses a 12 ft. rail and zero wind. A 4" 15 lb. rocket will get you about
> 5,000
> to 6,000 ft.
Welcome back Dave. Your hybrids rule.
Jerry
>
> Dave
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Dave Griffith
> NAR 14156
> The R.A.T.T.-works
> Monterey Machine Products
> 1504-A Industrial Park Street
> Covina, CA 91722 U.S.A.
> http://www.rattworks.com
--
Todd Moore
> weight rocket to about 2,500ft., he has been doing this for about 3 years. He
> uses a 12 ft. rail and zero wind. A 4" 15 lb. rocket will get you about 5,000
> to 6,000 ft.
I have a almost 20Lb loaded (N20 and all) 5.5" Rocket that I flew off
a 10ft rail to 3000 feet. Zero wind is a must, and I would have
wished for a longer rail, as I did get some weathercock. There is a
launch pic of it in the gallery section of Doug Pratt's site
www.flyhybrids.org. Excuse the paint job. Or lack thereof. ;)
Todd Moore
John DeMar
> I have a almost 20Lb loaded (N20 and all) 5.5" Rocket that I flew off
> a 10ft rail to 3000 feet. Zero wind is a must, and I would have
> wished for a longer rail, as I did get some weathercock. There is a
> launch pic of it in the gallery section of Doug Pratt's site
> www.flyhybrids.org. Excuse the paint job. Or lack thereof. ;)
How about a 4" diameter rocket on a RW I90, unloaded weight of 5lbs?
I've sim'd this to about 2000 ft. Planning on using an 8ft rail, unless
someone has something longer at NSL.
-John
Marcus Leech
I've flown a 4", 5lb rocket with my own I80 motor--there's a substantial
peak near the begining of the burn of around 160N or so. I wouldn't
want to do it in anything stronger than a light breeze, but launches
in this configuration produced quite nice flights to about 2300ft.
I haven't look at the details of the RATT K240 thrust curve, but it likely
has a substantial peak near the beginning, making the average thrust
a little misleading for doing max liftoff weight calculations.
PJAlchemist
fitting it in the car. I'll just make sure i build it up very well. Cheers
Todd Moore
> I haven't look at the details of the RATT K240 thrust curve, but it likely
> has a substantial peak near the beginning, making the average thrust
> a little misleading for doing max liftoff weight calculations.
The RATT K240 produces 91~94 Lbs at the beginning of the burn, IIRC.
I made the mistake of building my 5.5" Rocket with a dedicated 2.6"
MMT, and the K240 is just too lazy at the end of the burn, and the
rocket goes into cruise missle mode for the last 3 seconds of motor
burn. I need to get Dave's Xform injector kit for that motor.. The
added kick should help keep that rocket going straight. Any Idea when
a guy could get that new injector, Mr. Dave? ;)
Todd Moore
Jerry Irvine
tam...@gtlakes.com (Todd Moore) wrote:
They are made but not yet tested for cert and they indeed work about 20%
better. They rock.
>
> Todd Moore
Marcus Leech
>
> They are made but not yet tested for cert and they indeed work about 20%
> better. They rock.
>
> >
what those of us who work on liquids and hybrids know intuitively:
many small flows are better than a single, larger flow. The really
innovative thing they've done here is make a multi-port injector
in a way that's backwards-compatible with the single-port U/C
injector that they're using currently. Well done!
I saw this dramatically a couple of years ago, when I was fooling around
with single-injector U/C-valved hybrids. I actually saw a performance
(as in average thrust) *improvement* when I went from a 5/16" fill line
to a 1/4" fill line. The single 5/16" line wasted a lot of the N2O
flow--a significant fraction was getting pissed out the nozzle
unreacted. Last spring, I went to a Pentad injector arrangement,
and saw a very large improvement in Isp. Those of you at the NSL
this weekend should be able to see an example at the Pratt Hobbies
booth.
John DeMar
> I saw this dramatically a couple of years ago, when I was fooling around
> with single-injector U/C-valved hybrids. I actually saw a performance
> (as in average thrust) *improvement* when I went from a 5/16" fill line
> to a 1/4" fill line. The single 5/16" line wasted a lot of the N2O
> flow--a significant fraction was getting pissed out the nozzle
> unreacted. Last spring, I went to a Pentad injector arrangement,
> and saw a very large improvement in Isp. Those of you at the NSL
> this weekend should be able to see an example at the Pratt Hobbies
> booth.
Doug could not make it to NSL and there isn't much support there for
hybrids. LOC bailed out after the rain on Saturday and did not return today.
Some minimal support was there for experienced hybrid flyers but I did not
give my new RattWorks I90 a try. The wind wasn't too bad but I didn't want
to risk a partial fill with a 5-lb rocket. It'll have to wait until NYPOWER.
-John
PJAlchemist
gonna be the 1st in the ukwith this motor as no other bugger has said they have
one!
P.
Doug Pratt
(four fins) with the K240 and it makes for slow, crowd pleasing
flights. Nothing screams like a burning RATT.
Doug Pratt
video of said beast at www.flyhybrids.org
PJAlchemist
>Wayne's a brave man. I've been flying a 12.5 pound modified LOC Magnum
>(four fins) with the K240 and it makes for slow, crowd pleasing
>flights. Nothing screams like a burning RATT
At that he is. I have sean that amazing vid of the beast as you put it Doug.
I've gone with the 4''x upscale of the Estes kit and will still use the socks
of kevialr and galss but maybe some differnt fin material and more cr ring and
mmt. I know im gonna have a pine turned NC as i cant get one thats at all
close. So that will help shift the CG and CP. I think that the right words
never used em b4.
Andrew MacMillen
almost 5K', plenty of power. I also flew the same airframe with the K500
tribrid, and just uploaded the pix & flight data.
http://www.hawkfeather.com/rockets/k500/
Original airframe and K240 flights are at
http://www.hawkfeather.com/rockets/k240/
--
Andrew MacMillen
NAR/TRA L2
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Remove "_REMOVE_THIS_" to reply
PJAlchemist
>almost 5K', plenty of power. I also flew the same airframe with the K500
>tribrid, and just uploaded the pix & flight data.
>
>http://www.hawkfeather.com/rockets/k500/
>
>Original airframe and K240 flights are at
>
>http://www.hawkfeather.com/rockets/k240/
>
Hey Andrew,
Thanks for the info. Im now very very tempted to get the K500 insted of the 240
theo i might get the 240 along with the new x-flow bits. I like the look of
that big falme on the 500. What alchole doi nneed to use if i was to run one?
My rocket will be 4'' dai and 113'' long. Im gonna make it heavey i think.
Will have dual deployment i think now as well.
Andrew MacMillen
I'd recommend the K240 over the K500. The tribrid under-performs the
hybrid, doesn't sound quite as cool, isn't a certified motor, and is a
bit harder to assemble. However, you can't beat a <$10 K flight! A 6"
piece of ABS sewer pipe, $2 of nitrous, $.50 of alcohol (I use
denatured, one gallon at Home Depot is cheap), a free EX composite
starter grain from friend's leftovers, and an igniter. Even amortizing
in the 10 use phenolic liner & nozzle, plus a new compression nut,
alcohol plug, and fill tube makes it <$15! And it's got a lot of 'cool'
factor, but then so does the loud scream of the K240. The new injectors
for the K240 (probably will get a new name/class) make it perform even
better, but I think the increased efficiency has made it not scream as
much though.
Jerry Irvine
Andrew MacMillen <andrewm@REMOVE_THIS_hawkfeather.com> wrote:
Buy motors from Dave Griffith.
James L. Marino
Have you tried the new x-flow injector? Is it much of an
improvement? Does the fill tube still attach the same way, or is there some
kind of change that has to be made? Different compression fitting? Wondering
if I should bother with it...
James
"Andrew MacMillen" <andrewm@REMOVE_THIS_hawkfeather.com> wrote in message
news:3EE01E2D.914B561E@REMOVE_THIS_hawkfeather.com...
PJAlchemist
Whos that? i think i will be getting my K240 and loads and any upgrade off
wayen at Now Hybrid. Motor is at $238. Cheapest i've sean around and what with
the current exchange of the english pound to the usa $. Im both £ and $ in.
Jerry Irvine
pjalc...@aol.com (PJAlchemist) wrote:
cool.
"Wayen" (sp?) is Dave's dealer.
Marcus Leech
Dave Griffith is the proprietor and chief rocket scientist at RATTWorks.
Now you know.
PJAlchemist
yeah wayen of now hybrids. PP have you thought of doing a motor like the K240?
But to keep it like you are now do it in 3'' as you have a 22 and 38 and ratts
have 29 and 2.5.
Jerry Irvine
sa...@propulsionpolymers.com (Marcus Leech) wrote:
He actually FLYS rockets too. Buy rockets from him and his dealers.
They need the support.
Jerry
PJAlchemist
more than the 38 as i can see a lot esets kits getting a kick in at last.
Jerry Irvine
pjalc...@aol.com (PJAlchemist) wrote:
> jerry i will be getting my 22 and 38 from him. Very nice motors i like the 22
> more than the 38 as i can see a lot esets kits getting a kick in at last.
Pyro igniters will soon be legal in UK for those too.
Marcus Leech
Not certified yet.
Andrew MacMillen
future; I may wait until they're certed. Not sure of the mechanical
details either, but knowing Dave, it'll be a simple & elegant solution.
--
Andrew MacMillen
NAR/TRA L2
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Remove "_REMOVE_THIS_" to reply
PJAlchemist
it melt/burns it all awya and there the injectors are exposped. When is a sorta
eta on them?
PJAlchemist
> Not certified yet.
Well im in the uk and hybrids are expet for it. Thats what it looks like now.
Could you send me some more info and oic or vids of them in test or flight as i
would be intrested.
pete
PJAlchemist
>
What one that will light a hybrid qithout a preeheater grian? Are they yours
Jerry mate? If so then your a god send. Sod what Richard and co might think
back across the pond. Will they fit me micro hybird? I need some for that too
Jerry Irvine
pjalc...@aol.com (PJAlchemist) wrote:
It is the preheater grains that will become general access. 3/4 x 3/8"
IIRC. Then suppliers like RATTworks can sell all the non-pyro stuff and
you can buy the grains from our dealers.
Jerry
Marcus Leech
>
> Well im in the uk and hybrids are expet for it. Thats what it looks like now.
> Could you send me some more info and oic or vids of them in test or flight as i
> would be intrested.
>
> pete
entire thread.
I gather that you'd be interested in seeing video of static tests or
flights with these motors? I have a video somewhere, if I find it, I'll
put it up on flyhybrids.
I wonder what "hybrids are expet for it" means? It can't be just that you're
from "across the pond", since I was born "across the pond", and all my
relatives speak "across the pond"ish, and I still can't understand you...
Doug Pratt
sufficient interest, we'll get these babies certified and in
production. The K350 looks like a fantastic motor.
Doug Pratt
proud Propulsion Polymers dealer
(not to mention some other great stuff from the North)
www.pratthobbies.com
sa...@propulsionpolymers.com (Marcus Leech) wrote in message news:<e1fbb9db.03060...@posting.google.com>...
Bob
[snipped...]
> I wonder what "hybrids are expet for it" means? It can't be just that you're
> from "across the pond", since I was born "across the pond", and all my
> relatives speak "across the pond"ish, and I still can't understand you...
Don't worry Marcus, none of us can understand what he means half the time
either, he has a pathological fear of finding the AOL spell checker (he's
dyslexic and doesn't use a spell checker)...
Anyway, he's trying to say that since we in the UK fly under our own
insurance provided for us by UKRA we don't have to wait for you to have
TRA, NAR or CAR motor testing don e before we can fly your motors. Just
make sure any paper work is okay and you can sell us your motors today. :-)
Cheers,
--
bob [at] bobarnott [dot] com http://www.bobarnott.com/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Crash programs fail because they are based on theory that,
with nine women pregnant, you can get a baby in a month."
-- Wernher von Braun
David Weinshenker
> Don't worry Marcus, none of us can understand what he means half the time
> either, he has a pathological fear of finding the AOL spell checker (he's
> dyslexic and doesn't use a spell checker)...
If I were dyslexic I wouldn't trust spell checker software either:
I'd be afraid that it would "correct" the right word, misspelled,
into a completely different word, and I wouldn't be able to tell.
I'd rather type the right word spelled wrong
than the wrong word spelled right.
-dave w
Jerry Irvine
Bob <K11...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Marcus Leech wrote:
>
> [snipped...]
>
> > I wonder what "hybrids are expet for it" means? It can't be just that
> > you're
> > from "across the pond", since I was born "across the pond", and all my
> > relatives speak "across the pond"ish, and I still can't understand you...
>
> Don't worry Marcus, none of us can understand what he means half the time
> either, he has a pathological fear of finding the AOL spell checker (he's
> dyslexic and doesn't use a spell checker)...
>
> Anyway, he's trying to say that since we in the UK fly under our own
> insurance provided for us by UKRA we don't have to wait for you to have
> TRA, NAR or CAR motor testing don e before we can fly your motors. Just
> make sure any paper work is okay and you can sell us your motors today. :-)
>
> Cheers,
To the extent that system uses starter grains what size are they or can
they use 3/4 x 3/8"?
Doug Pratt
steel wool. Scott at West Coast Hybrids has been doing some very
interesting work in this direction too. Scott also steered me to a
potential source of GOX handling components that are manufactured in
my home town of Medina, New York; I'll be visiting them the next time
I head home. Upshot: it will get easier to use GOX based ignition
soon.
As for the Micro Hybrid, I got two of the Caveman versions. Very nice
machine work, and he modified the injector so that it doesn't take a
preheater grain. Instead you're supposed to use a hot igniter. I have
made one attempt that failed to light because I didn't have the NOX
sparklet installed properly and it never got pierced. I couldn't tell
if the Igniterman igniter I used would have penetrated the burst disk
or not. I will try again soon.
Doug Pratt
www.pratthobbies.com
www.flyhybrids.org
Rocky Firth
on would be greatly appreciated.
Rocky Firth
Marcus Leech
> Marcus Leech wrote:
>
> [snipped...]
>
> Don't worry Marcus, none of us can understand what he means half the time
> either, he has a pathological fear of finding the AOL spell checker (he's
> dyslexic and doesn't use a spell checker)...
>
> Anyway, he's trying to say that since we in the UK fly under our own
> insurance provided for us by UKRA we don't have to wait for you to have
> TRA, NAR or CAR motor testing don e before we can fly your motors. Just
> make sure any paper work is okay and you can sell us your motors today. :-)
>
> Cheers,
"paperwork" would need to be OK for me to sell to my British brethren?
That's a serious question. My motors are non-pyrotechnic hybrids--no
starter grains or pyrotechnics of any kind. I still don't know whether
I'd need CE approval or not.
Jerry Irvine
sa...@propulsionpolymers.com (Marcus Leech) wrote:
I don't think you need any paperwork for hybrids at all.
I am also not sure about CE.
Marcus Leech
> Indeed you do, and I will be showing them at NYPOWER. With luck and
> sufficient interest, we'll get these babies certified and in
> production. The K350 looks like a fantastic motor.
>
> Doug Pratt
> proud Propulsion Polymers dealer
Actually, I had a brain fart in the original post--it's K210/K350 J220/J360.
Hope NYPOWER goes well for you, Doug. I'll be away for Roc Lake VI, arriving
back just as NYPOWER is getting rolling. I'm going to be doing a
manufacturers demo of a new 100mm 'M' motor. Dave Ross has volunteered his
6" Delta Clipper upscale as a guinea pig. Ok, ok, to be precise he's
volunteered the *sustainer* of his 6" Delta Clipper upscale.
Darren J Longhorn
Leech) wrote:
>Well, given that you don't need TRA/NAR/CAR "paperwork"--exactly what
> "paperwork" would need to be OK for me to sell to my British brethren?
>
>That's a serious question. My motors are non-pyrotechnic hybrids--no
> starter grains or pyrotechnics of any kind. I still don't know whether
> I'd need CE approval or not.
What's the ignition method? On the propulsion polymers web site it
looks as though there is an "ignitor grain"?
--
Darren J Longhorn http://www.geocities.com/darrenlonghorn/
NSRG #005 http://www.northstarrocketry.org.uk/
UKRA #1094 L2 RSO http://www.ukra.org.uk/
D&JWatkins
than anything. Spell checkers help alot but taking your time and rereading
what you have typed is more inportant.
Dennis
"David Weinshenker" <daz...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3EE5F8E4...@earthlink.net...
Marcus Leech
> On 10 Jun 2003 11:24:53 -0700, sa...@propulsionpolymers.com (Marcus
> Leech) wrote:
>
> >Well, given that you don't need TRA/NAR/CAR "paperwork"--exactly what
> > "paperwork" would need to be OK for me to sell to my British brethren?
> >
> >That's a serious question. My motors are non-pyrotechnic hybrids--no
> > starter grains or pyrotechnics of any kind. I still don't know whether
> > I'd need CE approval or not.
>
> What's the ignition method? On the propulsion polymers web site it
> looks as though there is an "ignitor grain"?
my instruction manual (www.propulsionpolymers.com/38mminstruct.doc) shows
the use of a non-pyrotechnic start sequence. To be honest, the non-pyro
sequence is more reliable than using a chunk of propellant.
That having been said, my US distributors often package the reloads with
a chunk of APCP as a "starter grain". That makes the GSE somewhat cheaper,
but means that the reloads are "items pyrotechnic".
The non-pyro start sequence for monotube hybrids is so reliable that it should
just be standardized across all of the monotube+U/C hybrid vendors.
Scott Harrison of West Coast Hybrids has come up with a technique that
eliminates the HV supply, reducing the cost of the necessary GSE by about
$75-$90. He's using a technique that I dabbled with a few years ago, but
never "stuck" with to perfect. All we gotta do is get Dave Griffith on
board, and ALL the hybrids in common use will be entirely non-pyrotechnic
ignition.
Doug Pratt
I might be tempted to fly the J360 in a 4 inch fiberglass rocket I've
had around here for ages, made of Dangerous Dave components (yes, I am
one of the few people who actually got something that he paid Dave
for. Nowhere near ALL of what I paid Dave for, but something. And only
thanks to Mike Platt.)
I'll be showing the 22mm D, E, F and G casings too. If people are
interested, the money will be found to get these babies into
production...somehow!
sa...@propulsionpolymers.com (Marcus Leech) wrote in message news:<e1fbb9db.03061...@posting.google.com>...
Darren J Longhorn
Leech) wrote:
>Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<7r9cevckc8fibd305...@4ax.com>...
>> On 10 Jun 2003 11:24:53 -0700, sa...@propulsionpolymers.com (Marcus
>> Leech) wrote:
>>
>> >Well, given that you don't need TRA/NAR/CAR "paperwork"--exactly what
>> > "paperwork" would need to be OK for me to sell to my British brethren?
>> >
>> >That's a serious question. My motors are non-pyrotechnic hybrids--no
>> > starter grains or pyrotechnics of any kind. I still don't know whether
>> > I'd need CE approval or not.
>>
>> What's the ignition method? On the propulsion polymers web site it
>> looks as though there is an "ignitor grain"?
>The ignition method used in the CAR certification was non-pyrotechnic, and
> my instruction manual (www.propulsionpolymers.com/38mminstruct.doc) shows
> the use of a non-pyrotechnic start sequence. To be honest, the non-pyro
> sequence is more reliable than using a chunk of propellant.
Thanks, I'll download that and have a look.
>That having been said, my US distributors often package the reloads with
> a chunk of APCP as a "starter grain". That makes the GSE somewhat cheaper,
> but means that the reloads are "items pyrotechnic".
The problem in the UK is that an item that has been "classified and
authorised" by the HSE for one purpose cannot be used for another
purpose unless it has a separate "classification and authorisation".
To give you an example until recently we used Aerotech grains as pre
heaters for RATTworks hybrid motors. The HSE determined that this was
not legal because the Aerotech reload was classified and authorised
only as a rocket motor reload. (A group are trying to get the grain
classified as a pre heater too, but the going has been slow.) So, if
you wanted to package your reload with a start grain it would need to
be classified and authorised, which can take time and money. I see
from your documentation that the alternative ignition method is
similar to 'the Hypertek system' (Could Hypertek GSE be used?), in
which case you should not need your motors certified or approved by
anyone.
Sounds like you need a dealer/distributor in the UK? ;-)
>The non-pyro start sequence for monotube hybrids is so reliable that it should
> just be standardized across all of the monotube+U/C hybrid vendors.
> Scott Harrison of West Coast Hybrids has come up with a technique that
> eliminates the HV supply, reducing the cost of the necessary GSE by about
> $75-$90. He's using a technique that I dabbled with a few years ago, but
> never "stuck" with to perfect. All we gotta do is get Dave Griffith on
> board, and ALL the hybrids in common use will be entirely non-pyrotechnic
> ignition.
--
Marcus Leech
> The problem in the UK is that an item that has been "classified and
> authorised" by the HSE for one purpose cannot be used for another
> purpose unless it has a separate "classification and authorisation".
> To give you an example until recently we used Aerotech grains as pre
> heaters for RATTworks hybrid motors. The HSE determined that this was
> not legal because the Aerotech reload was classified and authorised
> only as a rocket motor reload. (A group are trying to get the grain
> classified as a pre heater too, but the going has been slow.) So, if
> you wanted to package your reload with a start grain it would need to
> be classified and authorised, which can take time and money. I see
> from your documentation that the alternative ignition method is
> similar to 'the Hypertek system' (Could Hypertek GSE be used?), in
> which case you should not need your motors certified or approved by
> anyone.
>
fill stinger, but everything else from a Hypertek GSE can be re-used.
You can fire RATTworks motors using the same scheme that I use, but
they weren't certified that way. With Scott Harrisons new HV-free
scheme, you eliminate the HV supply, so if you don't already have
GSE, you can save a bit of money. In a couple of weeks, I'll be
giving Scott Harrisons (West Coast Hybrids) method a try, and if I like
it, I'll officially endorse it as a starter technique for my motors.
> Sounds like you need a dealer/distributor in the UK? ;-)
Darren J Longhorn
Leech) wrote:
>Hypertek GSE can be used with only minor mods. You need to adapt to my
> fill stinger, but everything else from a Hypertek GSE can be re-used.
> You can fire RATTworks motors using the same scheme that I use, but
> they weren't certified that way. With Scott Harrisons new HV-free
> scheme, you eliminate the HV supply, so if you don't already have
> GSE, you can save a bit of money. In a couple of weeks, I'll be
> giving Scott Harrisons (West Coast Hybrids) method a try, and if I like
> it, I'll officially endorse it as a starter technique for my motors.
>
That's interesting, because the certification isn't an issue in the
UK. I currently have Hypertek motors, but don't have my own GSE.
>> Sounds like you need a dealer/distributor in the UK? ;-)
>Yup. Shall we say 1000 units to start? :-) :-) :-)
What's the dealer discount like? ;-)
Jerry Irvine
Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> classified as a pre heater too, but the going has been slow.) So, if
> you wanted to package your reload with a start grain it would need to
> be classified and authorised, which can take time and money. I see
> from your documentation that the alternative ignition method is
> similar to 'the Hypertek system' (Could Hypertek GSE be used?), in
> which case you should not need your motors certified or approved by
> anyone.
Our grain, the original one Ratt used before TRA banned us, is HSE
classified and authorized but we are awaiting the paperwork to send some
to UK.
The AT grain forced on Ratt by TRA is not quite as suitable for hybrid
ignition so UK users should see a satisfactory experience. As soon as
the supply of starters is there then Dave and his dealers can supply UK
freely with no permits whatsoever.
Darren J Longhorn
wrote:
>In article <m3mdev0gtm8fuefuo...@4ax.com>,
> Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> classified as a pre heater too, but the going has been slow.) So, if
>> you wanted to package your reload with a start grain it would need to
>> be classified and authorised, which can take time and money. I see
>> from your documentation that the alternative ignition method is
>> similar to 'the Hypertek system' (Could Hypertek GSE be used?), in
>> which case you should not need your motors certified or approved by
>> anyone.
>
>Our grain, the original one Ratt used before TRA banned us, is HSE
>classified and authorized but we are awaiting the paperwork to send some
>to UK.
>
Classified and authorised as what?
>The AT grain forced on Ratt by TRA is not quite as suitable for hybrid
>ignition so UK users should see a satisfactory experience. As soon as
>the supply of starters is there then Dave and his dealers can supply UK
>freely with no permits whatsoever.
--
Jerry Irvine
Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:38:46 GMT, Jerry Irvine <01ro...@gte.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <m3mdev0gtm8fuefuo...@4ax.com>,
> > Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> classified as a pre heater too, but the going has been slow.) So, if
> >> you wanted to package your reload with a start grain it would need to
> >> be classified and authorised, which can take time and money. I see
> >> from your documentation that the alternative ignition method is
> >> similar to 'the Hypertek system' (Could Hypertek GSE be used?), in
> >> which case you should not need your motors certified or approved by
> >> anyone.
> >
> >Our grain, the original one Ratt used before TRA banned us, is HSE
> >classified and authorized but we are awaiting the paperwork to send some
> >to UK.
> >
> Classified and authorised as what?
UN-0275 Power cartridge: general access IIRC.
Looks like the hazard class might drop on those as well hopefully to a
CE free classification as well.
>
> >The AT grain forced on Ratt by TRA is not quite as suitable for hybrid
> >ignition so UK users should see a satisfactory experience. As soon as
> >the supply of starters is there then Dave and his dealers can supply UK
> >freely with no permits whatsoever.
--
Darren J Longhorn
wrote:
>In article <pb5fevovd1e7tt1st...@4ax.com>,
> Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:38:46 GMT, Jerry Irvine <01ro...@gte.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <m3mdev0gtm8fuefuo...@4ax.com>,
>> > Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> classified as a pre heater too, but the going has been slow.) So, if
>> >> you wanted to package your reload with a start grain it would need to
>> >> be classified and authorised, which can take time and money. I see
>> >> from your documentation that the alternative ignition method is
>> >> similar to 'the Hypertek system' (Could Hypertek GSE be used?), in
>> >> which case you should not need your motors certified or approved by
>> >> anyone.
>> >
>> >Our grain, the original one Ratt used before TRA banned us, is HSE
>> >classified and authorized but we are awaiting the paperwork to send some
>> >to UK.
>> >
>> Classified and authorised as what?
>
>UN-0275 Power cartridge: general access IIRC.
>Looks like the hazard class might drop on those as well hopefully to a
>CE free classification as well.
>
So it has the same problem as an aerotech grain. It's not classified
for use as an igniter grain.
Marcus Leech
>
> What's the dealer discount like? ;-)
>
Let's just say that my number 1 U.S. dealer, Pratt Hobbies,
is happy with the deal he gets.
Darren J Longhorn
Leech) wrote:
>Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<9eneevgmvp2lm5vbp...@4ax.com>...
>>
>> What's the dealer discount like? ;-)
>>
>Right. Like I'm going to tell you in a public forum :-)
>
Fair enough!
I've got to admit, I'm kind of tempted to ask you via email.
>Let's just say that my number 1 U.S. dealer, Pratt Hobbies,
> is happy with the deal he gets.
Marcus Leech
> In article <bc4rih$fl3bn$1...@ID-117101.news.dfncis.de>,
> Bob <K11...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> To the extent that system uses starter grains what size are they or can
> they use 3/4 x 3/8"?
>
> Jerry
well. The core hole needs to be large enough so that the initial flow
of N2O doesn't cause the starter grain to piston down to the end of the
hybrid grain--causing an unpleasant "double puncture" in the fill tube.
A core hole of 0.3125" is adequately large.
There you go, Jerry. A nearly-complete specification for starter grains for
my 38mm motor system. But as I noted earlier, they work quite well without
any pyro at all, and that's how they were CAR certified. Starter grains
for the 54mm system would need to be about 1.440" OD, and probably 3/8" to
7/16" thick, again with a 0.3125" core hole. I've never started the
54mm with anything other than a non-pyro sequence--the 54mm development
work came after I'd already moved to non-pyro for the 38mm stuff.
To be honest, and this is a PERSONAL OPINION, pyro-based start sequences now
seem, well, rather ham-fisted to me. The non-pyro sequence that I've been
using is reliable, and has the added moderate benefit for my customers of
deferring the inevitable butt-reaming from well-meaning federal agents.
Ignoring the SRBS for a moment, NASA starts its liquids using a spark plug
and an ignition chamber. While I certainly can't claim the level of
elegance and sophistication of NASA here, the non-pyro sequence is at least
in the same philosophical ballpark.
Jerry Irvine
No, this grain's specific intended use *IS* a hybrid starter grain.
Repurposing it to a rocket motor might be problematic!
Jerry
Jerry Irvine
sa...@propulsionpolymers.com (Marcus Leech) wrote:
snip tech specs.
> deferring the inevitable butt-reaming from well-meaning federal agents.
I see you catch the magic of freedom loving Americans and their
government.
PJAlchemist
i've gotten osdme hTPB grians to use in them too. So that be 100 N/s. yes
please lets us knowq on the igniter
PJAlchemist
concentration i have etc etc.
Yes i would be. i wa svery intrested in seing the 22 E test. i would like to
get the full range of these motors. That be great if you can post a vid up. let
me know when shes up there will ya dude?
LOL thats me Disylexia coming in. Think it was ment to be expement, no that
wrong, LOL>
Im half oz and half english so i guess thats why for one reason. .
Can you e-mail marcus about the big motors and the 22 stuff a si would really
really really X infintey liek to get hold of a full set.
Spoke to a hybrid deler herein the uk and we can have any hybrid we want here
as lon as it lights using a legal system. So a gSE sorta stytle is fine and
when they grian are done that too.
P.
Darren J Longhorn
wrote:
Do you have HSE paperwork showing that? I'm serious not just yanking
your chain.
Doug Pratt
start getting some use in the UK I predict that they will be very
popular indeed.
Like most of us little guys Marcus has a day job that sometimes
interferes with the fun stuff, and the occasional attacks of
broke-ness that economists call "cashflow restriction." (Calling my
present condition "cashflow restriction" reminds me of a report on an
early Whittle jet engine, which was described as "subjected to
catastrophic self-disassembly.") But within those limits, and with a
little patience, we small businesses can produce some truly wonderful
stuff that you would never get from a mega-corporation.
Doug Pratt
www.pratthobbies.com
Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<l6bfevkc0qub3gbgu...@4ax.com>...
Darren J Longhorn
Pratt) wrote:
>Go for it. Marcus is a pleasure to work with, and once his motors
>start getting some use in the UK I predict that they will be very
>popular indeed.
I'm not sure I have the time to run a dealership!
>Like most of us little guys Marcus has a day job that sometimes
>interferes with the fun stuff, and the occasional attacks of
>broke-ness that economists call "cashflow restriction." (Calling my
>present condition "cashflow restriction" reminds me of a report on an
>early Whittle jet engine, which was described as "subjected to
>catastrophic self-disassembly.") But within those limits, and with a
>little patience, we small businesses can produce some truly wonderful
>stuff that you would never get from a mega-corporation.
Yep. There's lots of them in this hobby. Sometimes we forget that we
should be grateful that these businesses exist at ll.
Jerry Irvine
Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >UN-0275 Power cartridge: general access IIRC.
> >> >Looks like the hazard class might drop on those as well hopefully to a
> >> >CE free classification as well.
> >> >
> >> So it has the same problem as an aerotech grain. It's not classified
> >> for use as an igniter grain.
> >
> >No, this grain's specific intended use *IS* a hybrid starter grain.
> >Repurposing it to a rocket motor might be problematic!
>
> Do you have HSE paperwork showing that? I'm serious not just yanking
> your chain.
email.
Darren J Longhorn
Pratt) wrote:
>Go for it. Marcus is a pleasure to work with, and once his motors
>start getting some use in the UK I predict that they will be very
>popular indeed.
I'm not sure I have the time to run a dealership!
>Like most of us little guys Marcus has a day job that sometimes
>interferes with the fun stuff, and the occasional attacks of
>broke-ness that economists call "cashflow restriction." (Calling my
>present condition "cashflow restriction" reminds me of a report on an
>early Whittle jet engine, which was described as "subjected to
>catastrophic self-disassembly.") But within those limits, and with a
>little patience, we small businesses can produce some truly wonderful
>stuff that you would never get from a mega-corporation.
Yep. There's lots of them in this hobby. Sometimes we forget that we
should be grateful that these businesses exist at ll.
--
Bob
[snipped...]
> No, this grain's specific intended use *IS* a hybrid starter grain.
> Repurposing it to a rocket motor might be problematic!
Jerry, if this is true, then start selling the damm things! I've got RATT
Works hybrids gathering dust that I'd like to see fly...
--
bob [at] bobarnott [dot] com http://www.bobarnott.com/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Crash programs fail because they are based on theory that,
with nine women pregnant, you can get a baby in a month."
-- Wernher von Braun
PJAlchemist
now? I know they had an e-mail on aol.
Bob
> Bob, it would have to be from congrev rockets i think.
Not necessarily, if Jerry had the right paper work, then you could import
them direct from him.
> Have they got a web site now? I know they had an e-mail on aol.
Why don't you email them and find out...?
Jerry Irvine
Bob <K11...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> PJAlchemist wrote:
> > Bob, it would have to be from congrev rockets i think.
>
> Not necessarily, if Jerry had the right paper work, then you could import
> them direct from him.
>
> > Have they got a web site now? I know they had an e-mail on aol.
>
> Why don't you email them and find out...?
"The right paperwork" for UK is a different mix than in the US.
It requires the Competent Authority approval of cource but depending on
the hazard class it either does or does not require CE marking and that
is very expensive (no wonder aerotech does not have it) and is confusing
and difficult to find the requirements even WITH money (hence CTI's
delays).
The whole CE thing is a bind.
Jerry
Bob
[snipped...]
> "The right paperwork" for UK is a different mix than in the US.
>
> It requires the Competent Authority approval of cource but depending on
> the hazard class it either does or does not require CE marking and that
> is very expensive (no wonder aerotech does not have it) and is confusing
> and difficult to find the requirements even WITH money (hence CTI's
> delays).
>
> The whole CE thing is a bind.
CE markings are only for things to be sold in the UK, as far as I know, I
can still import stuff personally from anywhere without it being CE marked.
I'm sure someone will correct me if that's wrong though...?
Darren J Longhorn
>Jerry Irvine wrote:
>
>[snipped...]
>
>> "The right paperwork" for UK is a different mix than in the US.
>>
>> It requires the Competent Authority approval of cource but depending on
>> the hazard class it either does or does not require CE marking and that
>> is very expensive (no wonder aerotech does not have it) and is confusing
>> and difficult to find the requirements even WITH money (hence CTI's
>> delays).
>>
>> The whole CE thing is a bind.
>
>CE markings are only for things to be sold in the UK, as far as I know, I
>can still import stuff personally from anywhere without it being CE marked.
>I'm sure someone will correct me if that's wrong though...?
That's my understanding. It's because you can't expect a manufacturer
/ distributor to invest in CE marking for a product they don't intend
to market in the EU*.
If however if the manufacturer / distributor _does_ intend to market
in the EU, then you _should_ expect them to invest in CE marking.
Otherwise we end up in the situation we're now in with no motors
legally** sold since January 1st this year.
* and Switzerland.
** IANAL this is just my understanding of what I've been told.
Jerry Irvine
Bob <K11...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jerry Irvine wrote:
>
> [snipped...]
>
> > "The right paperwork" for UK is a different mix than in the US.
> >
> > It requires the Competent Authority approval of cource but depending on
> > the hazard class it either does or does not require CE marking and that
> > is very expensive (no wonder aerotech does not have it) and is confusing
> > and difficult to find the requirements even WITH money (hence CTI's
> > delays).
> >
> > The whole CE thing is a bind.
>
> CE markings are only for things to be sold in the UK, as far as I know, I
> can still import stuff personally from anywhere without it being CE marked.
> I'm sure someone will correct me if that's wrong though...?
I would simply like so see an authoritive source for the rules and how
they apply. I am told they definitely apply to "explosives" (1.4, 1.3,
1.2, etc) and NOT to Flammable Solids 4.1, but probably DO apply to an
unregulated plastic for those lucky enough, and smart enough, and
persistent enough, and rich enough, to achieve that.
Jerry Irvine
Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:08:20 +0100, Bob <K11...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Jerry Irvine wrote:
> >
> >[snipped...]
> >
> >> "The right paperwork" for UK is a different mix than in the US.
> >>
> >> It requires the Competent Authority approval of cource but depending on
> >> the hazard class it either does or does not require CE marking and that
> >> is very expensive (no wonder aerotech does not have it) and is confusing
> >> and difficult to find the requirements even WITH money (hence CTI's
> >> delays).
> >>
> >> The whole CE thing is a bind.
> >
> >CE markings are only for things to be sold in the UK, as far as I know, I
> >can still import stuff personally from anywhere without it being CE marked.
> >I'm sure someone will correct me if that's wrong though...?
>
> That's my understanding. It's because you can't expect a manufacturer
> / distributor to invest in CE marking for a product they don't intend
> to market in the EU*.
>
> If however if the manufacturer / distributor _does_ intend to market
> in the EU, then you _should_ expect them to invest in CE marking.
>
> Otherwise we end up in the situation we're now in with no motors
> legally** sold since January 1st this year.
>
> * and Switzerland.
> ** IANAL this is just my understanding of what I've been told.
I thought so too but as I understand it CE is one of the small areas UK
has voluntarily aligned with EU. I have been told this by authoritive
sources, so until I hear from another authoritive source otherwise, I am
proceeding on that basis.
Substantial compliance and all :)
Darren J Longhorn
wrote:
>In article <mqtjevkkjvqs31kai...@4ax.com>,
> Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> That's my understanding. It's because you can't expect a manufacturer
>> / distributor to invest in CE marking for a product they don't intend
>> to market in the EU*.
>>
>> If however if the manufacturer / distributor _does_ intend to market
>> in the EU, then you _should_ expect them to invest in CE marking.
>>
>> Otherwise we end up in the situation we're now in with no motors
>> legally** sold since January 1st this year.
>>
>> * and Switzerland.
>> ** IANAL this is just my understanding of what I've been told.
>
>I thought so too but as I understand it CE is one of the small areas UK
>has voluntarily aligned with EU. I have been told this by authoritive
>sources, so until I hear from another authoritive source otherwise, I am
>proceeding on that basis.
>
>Substantial compliance and all :)
I'm confused, maybe you are too? The UK _is_ in the EU.
Jerry Irvine
Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:36:36 GMT, Jerry Irvine <01ro...@gte.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <mqtjevkkjvqs31kai...@4ax.com>,
> > Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> That's my understanding. It's because you can't expect a manufacturer
> >> / distributor to invest in CE marking for a product they don't intend
> >> to market in the EU*.
> >>
> >> If however if the manufacturer / distributor _does_ intend to market
> >> in the EU, then you _should_ expect them to invest in CE marking.
> >>
> >> Otherwise we end up in the situation we're now in with no motors
> >> legally** sold since January 1st this year.
> >>
> >> * and Switzerland.
> >> ** IANAL this is just my understanding of what I've been told.
> >
> >I thought so too but as I understand it CE is one of the small areas UK
> >has voluntarily aligned with EU. I have been told this by authoritive
> >sources, so until I hear from another authoritive source otherwise, I am
> >proceeding on that basis.
> >
> >Substantial compliance and all :)
>
> I'm confused, maybe you are too? The UK _is_ in the EU.
They seem to use pounds still. They are in for some purposes and out
for others.
Darren J Longhorn
wrote:
>In article <irnkev0vo43gps2uo...@4ax.com>,
> Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
<snip>
>>
>> I'm confused, maybe you are too? The UK _is_ in the EU.
>
>They seem to use pounds still. They are in for some purposes and out
>for others.
We don't use the Euro. Neither do Denmark. We're still in the EU.
PJAlchemist
they.
If we go to the eurro then im gonna go live with jerry.
Doug Pratt
motor weighs less than an ounce. The preheater grain for a K240 weighs
much less than 62.5 g. I can supply you with either one and ship them
to you legally.
Doug Pratt
www.pratthobbies.com
Bob <K11...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bca86q$h4stt$1...@ID-117101.news.dfncis.de>...
PJAlchemist
>to you legally.
Can you? Scince when? If so how come Pete or Andy don't have them? i dont mena
to sound harsh or brash. I know it's now ilegal fr us to cut up an ATv grian as
we did for them. In that case then i'll be getting my K240 loads from Doug
Bob
> And why are they gathering dust? The preheater grain for a RATT 29mm
> motor weighs less than an ounce. The preheater grain for a K240 weighs
> much less than 62.5 g. I can supply you with either one and ship them
> to you legally.
You might be able to shop them here legally, but they wont be classified &
authorised for use by the HSE... Either you can import thgem but not fly
them, or you can fly them but not import them, swings & roundabouts...
Cheers,
Doug Pratt
the earlier messages in the thread, I see what the problem is.
Sorry for the confusion on my part.
Scott at West Coast Hybrids has been doing some very interesting work
on GOX-based ignition, and he's pointed me at some things that have me
thinking, too. You might see GOX/steel wool getting easier and more
convenient soon. Keep your hopes up.
Doug Pratt
www.pratthobbies.com
pjalc...@aol.com (PJAlchemist) wrote in message news:<20030616035619...@mb-m14.aol.com>...
Jerry Irvine
Bob <K11...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Doug Pratt wrote:
> > And why are they gathering dust? The preheater grain for a RATT 29mm
> > motor weighs less than an ounce. The preheater grain for a K240 weighs
> > much less than 62.5 g. I can supply you with either one and ship them
> > to you legally.
>
> You might be able to shop them here legally, but they wont be classified &
> authorised for use by the HSE... Either you can import thgem but not fly
> them, or you can fly them but not import them, swings & roundabouts...
>
> Cheers,
Unfortunately Bob is right. That needs to be changed or worked through.
I choose B.
PJAlchemist
If west coast, pp and rattworks got togther that be great. Then all be able to
run togther. It would help us and maybe the us as your laws are getting tougher
and tighter.
Scott Harrison
"Marcus Leech" <sa...@propulsionpolymers.com> wrote in message
news:e1fbb9db.03061...@posting.google.com...
> Darren J Longhorn <darrenl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<7r9cevckc8fibd305...@4ax.com>...
> > On 10 Jun 2003 11:24:53 -0700, sa...@propulsionpolymers.com (Marcus
> > Leech) wrote:
> >
> > >Well, given that you don't need TRA/NAR/CAR "paperwork"--exactly what
> > > "paperwork" would need to be OK for me to sell to my British
brethren?
> > >
> > >That's a serious question. My motors are non-pyrotechnic hybrids--no
> > > starter grains or pyrotechnics of any kind. I still don't know
whether
> > > I'd need CE approval or not.
> >
> > What's the ignition method? On the propulsion polymers web site it
> > looks as though there is an "ignitor grain"?
> The ignition method used in the CAR certification was non-pyrotechnic, and
> my instruction manual (www.propulsionpolymers.com/38mminstruct.doc)
shows
> the use of a non-pyrotechnic start sequence. To be honest, the non-pyro
> sequence is more reliable than using a chunk of propellant.
>
> That having been said, my US distributors often package the reloads with
> a chunk of APCP as a "starter grain". That makes the GSE somewhat
cheaper,
> but means that the reloads are "items pyrotechnic".
>
> The non-pyro start sequence for monotube hybrids is so reliable that it
should
> just be standardized across all of the monotube+U/C hybrid vendors.
> Scott Harrison of West Coast Hybrids has come up with a technique that
> eliminates the HV supply, reducing the cost of the necessary GSE by
about
> $75-$90. He's using a technique that I dabbled with a few years ago,
but
> never "stuck" with to perfect. All we gotta do is get Dave Griffith on
> board, and ALL the hybrids in common use will be entirely
non-pyrotechnic
> ignition.
Ya, come on Dave! 8-)
I can't say it enough how good the NON high voltage ignition sequence works!
With this ignition sequence these motors light as fast as solid motors. I
believe the new Pyro free ignition sequence greatly increase the safety
factor of mono tube hybrids. Not only for allowing for greatly increased
reliability, but quicker starts greatly reducing the possibility of slow
lift off's & completely eliminating the possibility of a small portion of
composite propellant plugging the nozzle. All of these could cause for a
lousy launch day, if not a possible catastrophic failure. Thats why I offer
FREE PLANS to anyone who would like them!! The plans are very simple to
follow, and are designed so that anyone can build there own Pyro-free GSE .
Email me for a free set!
Scott Harrison
test at the next launch. It not hard to convince once you have seen it in
action. Scott, West Coast Hybrids...
"PJAlchemist" <pjalc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030617035222...@mb-m02.aol.com...