British Eq?
david gourley
eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere ?
tia,
david
David Jahnsen
gourley) wrote:
British Eq is a marketing term -- nothing more.
--
Build an LA2a - this book shows you how.
http://home.earthlink.net/~djahnsen
swa...@my-deja.com
dav...@nospam.duke.edu (david gourley) wrote:
> I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to
what these
> eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere ?
>
> tia,
>
> david
>
a "buzz " word to get you to buy stuff. Check out ams-neve website
to see the eq freq. for a neve eq (i think it's a 1081)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Steven Sena
cooking, there ain't no such thing!
david gourley <dav...@nospam.duke.edu> wrote in message
news:7unh09$a3q$2...@news.duke.edu...
Scott Dorsey
david gourley <dav...@nospam.duke.edu> wrote:
>I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to what these
>eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere ?
British EQ, it's special, because, well, it's British. It's like, well,
you know that, I don't know, that sort of "je ne sais pas" which British
cars have? It's well, it's like that. But not exactly. Sort of, though.
It's very important to make sure your console has British EQ because all
the magazines say that it's very important. Also John Oram invented it,
so clearly it's critical.
I hope this is helpful.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Bob Smith
>
> I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to what these
> eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere ?
This is a marketing term designed to create an artificial feeling of
deficiency if you aren't using devices possessing this quality and
separate cash from your wallet in preference of John Oram's wallet.
Bob Smith
Amateur Recordist
--
Bob Smith - BS Studios
rsm...@bsstudios.com
http://www.bsstudios.com
david gourley
something about 'truth by repetition' comes to mind.
i used to hear stories in the late 60s about 'british watts' vs. 'american
watts' with regard to marshall amps. the 'british eq' phrase seemed to
recall that myth as well.
regards,
david
Will Gallant
I agree that they do have something "je ne sais quoi" about them, though.
:)
Willg...
Scott Dorsey wrote in message
Lorin David Schultz
>
> I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to what
> these eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies
> elsewhere ?
Think "Corinthian leather..."
Lorin
Mike Rivers
> British Eq is a marketing term -- nothing more.
So are "fat", "phat", "warm", and "tube". So what's new?
Actually when dealing with fixed-bandwidth EQ, the British consoles of
the '80's (when there started to be "American EQ" consoles which
sounded different when you set the knobs to the same numbers) had a
wider bandwidth than the American consoles. Some people liked one
sound, some liked the other. The marketeers thought "British" was
easeier to market, hence the name where none was really needed.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Patrick D. Olguin
>
> Is there an equivalent USA sound? :-)
Pultec, API and Lang come to mind. But tonally, none of these even come
close to the new American standard....Mackie. Start to stock up on those
Mackie modules before the price skyrockets!
Patrick D. Olguin
>
> --
> Geoff Tanner
> phoeni...@earthlink.net
> http://www.phoenixaudio.com
> phone: 323 462 4373
John La Grou
>In article <7unh09$a3q$2...@news.duke.edu>,
>david gourley <dav...@nospam.duke.edu> wrote:
>>I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to what these
>>eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere ?
>
>British EQ, it's special, because, well, it's British. It's like, well,
>you know that, I don't know, that sort of "je ne sais pas" which British
>cars have? It's well, it's like that. But not exactly. Sort of, though.
>
>It's very important to make sure your console has British EQ because all
>the magazines say that it's very important. Also John Oram invented it,
>so clearly it's critical.
>
>I hope this is helpful.
>--scott
C'mon Scott... everyone knows British EQ was invented by the French.
JL
Geoff Tanner
> > I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to
> what these
> > eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere
?
> >
> >
> > david
> >
> I imagine british refers to Rupert Neve's eq but it's basically
> a "buzz " word to get you to buy stuff. Check out ams-neve website
> to see the eq freq. for a neve eq (i think it's a 1081)
Hi
I think you are dead right and it is used as a buzz word, milked for all
it's worth! I think you'll find the Oram are pushing it as well but I
really don't think there's a lowest common denominator. . .
If there were, then Amek, AMS-Neve, Meek, Midas, Oram, Prism,
Soundcraft, TLA, etc., (forgive me if I have ommitted any names) but in
theory all these British products would sound similar and have that
"British Eq" sound.
Is there an equivalent USA sound? :-)
--
Dennis4JC
>If there were, [British eq] then Amek, AMS-Neve, Meek, Midas, Oram, Prism,
>Soundcraft, TLA, etc., (forgive me if I have ommitted any names) but in
>theory all these British products would sound similar and have that
>"British Eq" sound.
>
>Is there an equivalent USA sound? :-)
I think this sound is epitomized in the GTQ2!
Maybe should be called the U-ass-Hey Q-52....Stars and Stripes forever!
Geoff Tanner....Father of the USA-Q! :-)
( These are made in the states, aren't they Geoff? If not, please disregard
the above manic moment.......) ;^)
Dennis Garapic
The Lions Den
Firehouse
Cleveland
216-265-8254ph
216-267-8660fax
ScotFraser
<<I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to what these
eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere ?
,>>
It's not about choice of frequencies. At one time, like in the '70s, British
circuit designers tended to use a very different topology from their American
counterparts. As such, they sounded rather different. Now, "British EQ" is an
advertising term which means "I will say anything to get you to buy this
equipment."
Scott Fraser
Fletcher
>
>
> I think this sound is epitomized in the GTQ2!
> Maybe should be called the U-ass-Hey Q-52....Stars and Stripes forever!
> Geoff Tanner....Father of the USA-Q! :-)
> ( These are made in the states, aren't they Geoff? If not, please disregard
> the above manic moment.......) ;^)
>
> Dennis Garapic
> The Lions Den
Dennis...I don't know how to break this to you...but Geoff is a "Fog
Nigger", and the GTQ2 is made in England. Other than that, excellent
post!!!
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: 508-543-0069
FAX: 508-543-9670
http://www.mercenary.com
Fletcher
>
> I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to what these
> eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere ?
>
>
> david
David...nice of you to ask a question with a 'no-spam' return
address...with out the secret decoder ring or at least a
warning...really, thanks, I enjoy the hell out of wasting my
time...sorry, it's my pet peeve of the day.
OK, we got through that...British EQ is a form of snake oil from a small
island in the North Atlantic. There is a tad of merit to the term as it
seems that many British manufacturers of equalizers used many of the
same frequency selections and principles, sometimes giving them
quasi-similar characteristics, but not tone. This has more to do with
the inherent cheapness of your standard Brit...these frequencies were
not necessarily chosen for musical enhancement, but because they could
use standard/off the shelf parts.
As time rolled along...and consoles got shittier and shittier
sounding...the concept of outboard Neve modules began to proliferate our
industry. Now you could have an SSL desk, with it's tre powerful
automation and ultra-crappy mic-pre's...but work around the bad bits of
it whilst making decent sounding recordings by using outboard
stuff...preferably, Neve stuff. Lovely, brilliant.
Time continues to march along...those Neve modules begin going up in
price [supply & demand]...the supply was limited to what was made
between like 1971 and 1978 [-Geoff will be around any second now with
exact dates-] the demand began to increase at an exponential
rate...especially as everyone who played keyboards in a high school band
decided they would open a studio in their bedroom/garage/basement/etc.
immediately following their [fill in name of recording school here]
graduation excercizes.
"10 series" Neve modules are getting harder to find than a cab in
Brixton...so the Neve broadcast modules become vogue...hell, we could
find 'um...they sounded close enough [sometimes even better], and had
the lightningbolt "N" in the circle. What the hell...the demand is
still rising and we've got families to feed.
As the supply on those started to dry up as well...hey, there were other
British console manufacturers...there was Calrec, there was Helios,
Raindirk, Trident, there were some pretty cool designs that came off
that island...let's market the hell out of it and say that some Beatle
stood next to it...they were all pretty good sounding modules once you
rebuilt them...but they all had radically different characters...much
like API stuff had a different character [yet shared many of the same
frequencies], but that was made in the states so much like Aerosmith
could never displace the Rolling Stones...
So the used equipment dealers are breaking up every desk they can get
their hands on [hell, we own two sawzall's!!] and selling anything that
wasn't nailed down that was made in England in during the 70's...around
this time, Trident was still making a pretty damn good console called
the '80 series' [not to be confused with 80 series Neves]...but before
that they had made these bitchin' all discrete desks called
'A-Range's...some of their modules were floating around too...and boy,
we were sellin' the hell out of them!! They even sounded remarkably
good, which was just a bit of a bonus to their being British.
The used dealers are driving the prices through the roof because
everytime we went to buy a console the seller thought it shit ice cream
and was worth a bazillion dollars...of course none had seen maintenance
since Nixon was in office...but it was grey with an "N" in the near
shape of a lightning bolt surrounded by a circle on it. As the buy
costs for the modules increased, and their supply diminished [the last
one's we were able to find were in Communist, and former Communist
countries...shipping/crating hell]...the price went through the
roof...as did the 'snot' factor of owning them...which made them yet
still more appealing.
During this period in the '80's, the guy who's name used to end with the
"N" word started Focusrite [his non-compete with the company defiling
his name finally ran out]...and was building...you guessed it...mic-pre
equalizer modules. He was also reinforcing the name he had built for
himself while he was doing it as well...his name was already pretty much
an audio household word to begin with, but it was approaching that
legendary status at this point.
Well there were other English designers as well...and they weren't
getting their 15 minutes of fame...so this 4' 9" little monkey decided
to make himself a famous British designer with a few full page
advertisements that told you he was...and that was how the term 'British
EQ' was born. On the whole, I know I personally couldn't give a flying
fuck where something was made, as long as it helps the record I'm
working on...
I wonder what Digitalman thinks about this...
Geoff Tanner
Fletcher <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote:
> Dennis4JC wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think this sound is epitomized in the GTQ2!
> > Maybe should be called the U-ass-Hey Q-52....Stars and Stripes
forever!
> > Geoff Tanner....Father of the USA-Q! :-)
> > ( These are made in the states, aren't they Geoff? If not, please
disregard
> > the above manic moment.......) ;^)
> >
> > Dennis Garapic
> > The Lions Den
>
> Dennis...I don't know how to break this to you...but Geoff is a "Fog
> Nigger", and the GTQ2 is made in England. Other than that, excellent
> post!!!
> --
> Fletcher
Hi Fletcher
I'll have you know that I drove through a fog to work the other day,
here in LA!
And, other than the fact I have to use many UK sourced components
(transistors, transformers, etc.), the GTQ2 is manufactured in Hollywood
and has my phone number printed on the back!
david gourley
>
>David...nice of you to ask a question with a 'no-spam' return
>address...with out the secret decoder ring or at least a
>warning...really, thanks, I enjoy the hell out of wasting my
>time...sorry, it's my pet peeve of the day.
my apologies for that, but i'd been getting way too much email garbage. i'm
open to any helpful alternative... i don't like doing that, either, to be
honest with you.
>great informative stuff snipped
>> On the whole, I know I personally couldn't give a flying
>fuck where something was made, as long as it helps the record I'm
>working on...
yes, i'd agree that's the bottom line with any equipment.
thanks for the background info,
david
Scott Dorsey
>On 21 Oct 1999 19:06:47 GMT, klu...@netcom.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>In article <7unh09$a3q$2...@news.duke.edu>,
>>>I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to what these
>>>eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere ?
>>
>>you know that, I don't know, that sort of "je ne sais pas" which British
>>cars have? It's well, it's like that. But not exactly. Sort of, though.
>>
>>It's very important to make sure your console has British EQ because all
>>the magazines say that it's very important. Also John Oram invented it,
>>so clearly it's critical.
>>
>>I hope this is helpful.
>
No, he makes tape heads, not equalizers.
Chris Notton
says...
> In article <7uo7pc$rcc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to
> > what these
> > > eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere
> ?
> > >
When we first encountered American products on the seventies we studio
technical types found the e.q. to be rather, how can I put it, extreme.
It was actually possible to put so much e.q. on that you could ACTUALLY
CAUSE DISTORTION. Generally speaking it was a lot harder to get into that
sort of situation with the U.K. (primarily Neve) & Decca consoles we had
been putting up until then.
Needless to say the engineers loved it and this approval fed back into
the design loop and U.K. e.q.'s gradually got more radical.
The term British e.q. is fairly meaningless unless applied it to u.k.
products of pre circa 1975 (which it isn't) or to products which
reproduce the characteristics of that era (which they don't)
Mr. Oram caused great hilarity in the biz. over here as no-one had ever
heard of him until he styled himself as Rupert Neve's Dad.
BTR2 anyone
--
Chris Notton
}<////(*>
R Krizman
>Is there an equivalent USA sound? :-)
Yeah, . . . LOUD !
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music,
Venice, CA
Kevin Smith
specified by the BBC. There was a Calrec board with the same frequencies,
which were also done for the beeb.
The John Oram "father of British eq" thing is absurd. I mean it's great
that he's making money off it and everything, but claiming to have fathered
something that only exists in the minds of impressionable young record
school graduates is pretty nutty.
Fletcher <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote in message
news:380FDA...@mercenary.com...
> david gourley wrote:
> >
> > I see this phrase a lot. Would someone please enlighten me as to what
these
> > eq frequencies are, or as opposed to other eq frequencies elsewhere ?
> >
> > tia,
> >
> > david
> David...nice of you to ask a question with a 'no-spam' return
> address...with out the secret decoder ring or at least a
> warning...really, thanks, I enjoy the hell out of wasting my
> time...sorry, it's my pet peeve of the day.
>
Geoff Tanner
denn...@aol.com (Dennis4JC) wrote:
> Geoff Tanner writes:
>
> >If there were, [British eq] then Amek, AMS-Neve, Meek, Midas, Oram,
Prism,
> >Soundcraft, TLA, etc., (forgive me if I have ommitted any names) but
in
> >theory all these British products would sound similar and have that
> >"British Eq" sound.
> >
>
>
> Maybe should be called the U-ass-Hey Q-52....Stars and Stripes
forever!
> Geoff Tanner....Father of the USA-Q! :-)
> ( These are made in the states, aren't they Geoff? If not, please
disregard
> the above manic moment.......) ;^)
>
> Dennis Garapic
> The Lions Den
> Cleveland
> 216-265-8254ph
> 216-267-8660fax
Hi Dennis
Yes, they are made in Hollywood, CA, which I think is in the USA!
However, the two ex Neve designers are as British as Sausage an' Mash
and other British cooking delicacies!
Hell will freeze over before we called the sound "British" so I'm happy
to call it "USA" sound (or anything else you fancy)!
LLLindblad
Scott, he didn't invent it, he FATHERED it! oh to be a fly on the wall(with a
camera) lol......
tuna
dgkenney
the sound while a "British EQ" added a certain colour to the sound.
Dan
Irwin Shur
mash..."
Irwin Shur
hank alrich
> Ah ha, Geoff, are you a Yank yourself? Most Brits would say "bangers 'n
> mash..."
If'n youse hear Geoff speak in person you'll know he ain't no yank! <g>
--
hank - secret mountain
Note: the rec.audio.pro FAQ is at http://recordist.com/rap-faq/current
Read it and reap!
Geoff Tanner
Irwin Shur <is...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Ah ha, Geoff, are you a Yank yourself? Most Brits would say "bangers
'n
> mash..."
>
>
Hi Irwin
No, not really! The problem is that I was born in Watford, 26 miles
North of London, of parents from Gloucester in the west of England.
That was near enough to London for my parent's house to get partly
destroyed by a V1 in WW2, but far enough for me not to get a cockney
accent! Then the west country aspect muddled my accent a little more so
that folk I meet in stores over here, for instance, think I'm
Australian!
Yes, definitely Saus' 'n mash with me! All very confusing!
Ngezi
to do with the different frequency settings. Like the ISO standart for
graphic EQ's.
But then British, soa boit different and it should sound different as well.
Hope I'm right and not confusing it all :)
Niels
david gourley <dav...@nospam.duke.edu> wrote in message
news:7unh09$a3q$2...@news.duke.edu...
Fletcher
>
> I'm not an expert on this, but I once read that the British EQ has something
> to do with the different frequency settings. Like the ISO standart for
> graphic EQ's.
> But then British, soa boit different and it should sound different as well.
>
> Hope I'm right and not confusing it all :)
>
> Niels
Let me confirm it for you...you are confusing it all. The 'father' of
British EQ's [is a father really a father without guidance and
parenting?...or just another motherfucker that let's it's offspring
lose?] "magic patented equalizer" with "the revolutionary use of
combinable sweep and shelf equalizers" [what's so revolutionary about
that is beyond me...but then again, I'm not the motherfucker of british
EQ either]...the user has available up to 8 bands of control...and get
this "revolutionary" idea...it has *separate* filter and EQ bypass!!!
So if it's sweepable, with variable 'Q'...it's just another parametric
equalizer...meaning that the user has the options to decide the slopes,
the frequencies, etc...sorta like every other parametric equalizer
patterened after the one originally invented by George and
Burgess...which I suppose would make them the fathers of excellent
EQ's...but they don't seem to be bragging about it to the same extent.
Daddy's little products are built with 'surface mount
technology'...which translated to everyday language means...damn near
impossible to repair without an entirely different set of tools and
training...meaning the guy that does the rest of your maintenance will
have a damn difficult time at best, and more than likely an impossible
task of repairing the damn things when they break...and sooner or later,
everything breaks.
But really...most importantly...the little monkey's consoles are
available in over 2000 colors. I know that's the major selling point
for me...I'm gonna get me two today!! Now if I could just decide on the
color...
You know...the guy actually has some interesting ideas...and I have a
feeling that if he weren't such a pompous ass he might even be worthy of
respect...father of british EQ...me thinks the brother needs some
serious couch time.
Will Gallant
are giving a new meaning to the word "coloration" in audio...
Willg...
Fletcher wrote in message
Scott Dorsey
>Daddy's little products are built with 'surface mount
>technology'...which translated to everyday language means...damn near
>impossible to repair without an entirely different set of tools and
>training...meaning the guy that does the rest of your maintenance will
>have a damn difficult time at best, and more than likely an impossible
>task of repairing the damn things when they break...and sooner or later,
>everything breaks.
SMT stuff is a pain in the ass to work on. But it's everywhere, and as
a result, the tools and training are getting to be pretty common. My
local TV repair has a Hakko SMT rework station, and when I asked them
about it, they said they've had it for a couple years now, and that
they wound up having to buy one because they just coudln't work on
modern TVs and VCRs without it.
In a few years the whole world is gonna be SMT and multilayer boards
and it's not going to be fun for the repair techs, but it's an
inexorable shift.
>You know...the guy actually has some interesting ideas...and I have a
>feeling that if he weren't such a pompous ass he might even be worthy of
>respect...father of british EQ...me thinks the brother needs some
>serious couch time.
Hey, outrageous claims sell products in the consumer world. Look at
Bose. And sadly, the consumer electronics attitudes are taking over
in the pro world.
Irwin Shur
You don't hear much of the full cockney accent in London anymore, except
for a few cabbies. Or maybe I just don't frequent the right places in
London <g>.
Irwin
Kevin Smith
dgkenney <dgke...@dgkenney.com> wrote in message
news:01bf1d51$f4a0d240$3e8c15cf@default...
James Perrett
Fletcher wrote:
> You know...the guy actually has some interesting ideas...and I have a
> feeling that if he weren't such a pompous ass he might even be worthy of
> respect...father of british EQ...me thinks the brother needs some
> serious couch time.
Wasn't it actually Samson who coined that term in their ads for one of
the consoles he designed for them? Admittedly he picked up on it and
used it. He always seems to be a bit of a character at the shows but the
recording world seems to attract these odd characters.
James.
oram...@my-deja.com
James....@soc.soton.ac.uk wrote: > > > Fletcher wrote: > > > You
was actually created by an American at a seminar session and exploited by the
marketing team of a company selling several of my products. That's what I've
done for the past 35 years, design for companies Great British EQ and Audio
and it's just how I like it to sound. Many of your countrymen have liked and
still like what I do. Companies like VOX [hope you're old enough to remember
the real VOX's] and TRIDENT, Series 80, TSM and 5 OR 6 boards, more and
more, et al et al, and loads of M.I. products that I'm too modest to
mention. Not just products, but op amps too. As for the need to get as
abusive as Mr Fletcher, well maybe someone out there will explain that one to
me. We've met twice at Tec Awards fancy parties [I was only kiddin' when I
thought you were the door-man] and that would have been the time to express
your feelings, not hiding here. Good luck to you all in this great business
we work in. The ORAM thing is going great and you'll be hearing about the
TRIDENT thing again very soon. Keep watching those full page, full colour
ads., British EQ lives on and of course it's different, it must be: you
told us so ! Be pleased to talk more with anyone, abusive or not. Call toll
free [we can afford it] on 1-888 ORAM PRO or spend the buck on 011 44 1474
815300 Watch out for the new name. THE LITTLE MONKEY
Sam Trenholme
>open to any helpful alternative... i don't like doing that, either, to be
>honest with you.
Well, to be off-topic, you can check out my solution to this particular
annoying problem is the program 'kiwi', available in the directory 'email'
on www.cryptography.org.
- Sam
--
"Reality is the most perfect vision of God's will" -- Orson Scott Card
The email address used to post this will time out in two weeks
Fletcher
it's taken a couple days to do some interviews, do a little homework.
Following is my response to that post.
During those interviews, it became apparent that Mr. Oram has a bit of a
temper. Tape recorded copies of several of these interviews are being
held by my attorneys. If I so much as break a fingernail in a
suspicious way...you better be ready for *everything* I uncovered to
become public knowledge.
Not that you would take my advice on anything...but if I were you, I'd
drop the whole thing right here.
There are alot of people that don't like you Mr. Oram, and boy oh boy do
they like to talk about it... Let the games begin.
oram...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
>
> The "British EQ" title [as used by us here]
> was actually created by an American at a seminar session and exploited by the
> marketing team of a company selling several of my products.
That American would be who? I know one American that said "Braves in
6"...and he's a fucking moron too. On what authority would someone make
such a bullshit claim? The marketing team selling several of your
products...we'll assume that would be *your* company...seeing as the
phrase is in all of *your* firm's advertisments. I called you "a
pompous little ass"...I'm an American...why don't you try using that one
in an advert?
> That's what I've
> done for the past 35 years, design for companies Great British EQ and Audio
> and it's just how I like it to sound. Many of your countrymen have liked and
> still like what I do.
And you may certainly count me among them...it just doesn't mean I have
to have any respect for you as a man...or that you really designed it.
> Companies like VOX [hope you're old enough to remember
> the real VOX's] and TRIDENT, Series 80, TSM and 5 OR 6 boards, more and
> more, et al et al, and loads of M.I. products that I'm too modest to
> mention. Not just products, but op amps too.
Yeah, I really like old VOX amps, and yeah, I'm old enough to know the
difference, not old enough to have purshased one new, but still old
enough to know the diffference. Then again, there are some 20 something
year old kids that have been schooled to the difference as well...how
'bout that shit?
One thing gets me...it's the 'VOX time line' I found via
Deja-news...it's a little ditty that goes something like this:
Tom Jennings- Jennings Organ Company
Dick Denny- design
1957 - Jennings Musical Inst. [JMI] VOX 1957 - AC15
1960 - AC30
1963 - AC50
1964 - AC100
1964 - JMI became a division of Royston
Now...from my humble and limited experience with VOX amps...VOX made
CRAP after Jennings and Denny lost control of product and design...BTW,
Jennings died in 1979
So, just where was it that you came into the picture? You say
1964...which would be around the time when the VOX amps we know the
difference about --- ceased to be the VOX amps we know the difference
about...and were the crap amps you referred to earlier. Did I get the
timing wrong perhaps? If so, sorry, I was 5 when the Beatles played
Shea Stadium.
If you were involved with the real development of the Vox amps,
and were the same age, as well, let's say Malcolm Toft...that would make
you 11 years old in 1957, and about 18 in 1964. Somehow I don't see an
18 year old kid running a design department, maybe an assistant
draftsperson or something...I could be wrong, but I know it wouldn't
happen in my shop.
I just spent several weeks working on an A-Range, I own an 80 Series...a
big one, a 48 input one...I love the tone of the damn thing, when we had
a technical staff, they kept trying to "improve it"...everytime they
did, I heard it, and made them remove the improvement, it's a great
piece of equipment...however, you had nothing to do with their design
[according to the people I've spoken to that also claim to have designed
it, people that like started Trident]...not in the look, not in the
sound, not in the function. I guess everyone that ever worked at
Trident, other than you that is, has a faulty memory...that's plausable.
Now you claim in your full color/full page ad, the October 1999 issue,
that you joined Trident Audio Developments in 1972.
Trident Audio Developments was not founded until August of 1972,
Centredisc LTD. was the holding company of Trident Studios. The
original design staff were Malcolm Toft and Barry E. Porter. Just
exactly which part of 1972 did you sign up during? This is all a matter
of public record.
I have heard tell that you have called yourself the 'copyright officer'
of Trident...that position never existed. Your "op-amp" designs were
taken directly from the "IC op amp cookbook" written by Walter G.Jung,
published by Howard W. Sams & Co. in the early 70's [first edition 1974,
which postdates the rest of your claims now doesn't it]. Though I've
also heard that it might have been the "Maplin catalog", or possibly the
'Radio Spares' data sheets...should I do some more research on it?
The current work sounds OK [though the current surface mount approach is
annoying if you need maintenance in a hurry...but other firms are
turning to it as well, so perhaps the requisite tools will become more
common for the average tech on the street], why not promote it as good
work. Why not promote it without the attempted trashing of another
fellow's achievements, or trying to make yourself a false diety.
No, you have to call yourself the 'Father of British EQ". So if you're
the father, where would Barry Porter, Dick Swettenham, Malcolm Toft or
Rupert Neve fit in? Or what about Peter Watts, Dave Howell, SS
Sandhu?...you know them doncha, the guys that got those little scraps of
paper you called circuits to actually work.
Are they like Uncles of British EQ, God-Parents of British EQ, Masters
of British EQ, Lords of British EQ, Saints of British EQ, Biological
Fathers of British EQ? What makes you feel that you are more deserving
of that horseshit title than any of these other of your countrymen?
That's what gets me you pompous little ass. Gee, maybe he's
right...perhaps I am abusive...but at least I'm not dillusional.
>
> As for the need to get as
> abusive as Mr Fletcher, well maybe someone out there will explain that one to
> me. We've met twice at Tec Awards fancy parties [I was only kiddin' when I
> thought you were the door-man] and that would have been the time to express
> your feelings, not hiding here.
Hide? Are you talkin' to me when you say hide? I have *never* said
anything on this forum I wouldn't say to someone's face. Never. You
want to accuse me of 'hiding' behind "cyber-distance" you're fucking
with the wrong man. When and where, you want I should come to your
booth at the next AES and call you a little monkey to your face...say
the word, I'm there.
No sporto...much like many of your other recollections, it's just a tad
off base. The first time we were introduced was by Chris Pelonis at a
reception held after the TEC awards in San Francisco [by the way, you
rooked mahvelous]. The first -*first*- words out of your mouth upon
meeting me maligned Malcolm...before 'hello'.
Before fuckin' "hello", at a 'social' event. Like I was supposed to be
impressed or something, and hang on your every word. I've met people
who's work has impressed me, but have not necessarily impressed me as
people. You sir, are at the top of that list [the 'not impressed me as
people list', not really the 'work has impressed me list'].
I consider Malcolm a friend, still do, though we don't talk as often as
we had in the past [I must admit I quite enjoyed our little conversation
the other morning...guess what the main topic was], I had never met
you. I don't fancy people I don't know very well speaking poorly of my
friends. Out of respect to Chris [a man also worthy of my utmost
respect] I asked that you change the subject.
You kept on with it...and I don't recall my exact words...but I believe
it was something along the lines of "Chris-tell this arrogant little
piece of shit to shut the fuck up, or out the fuckin' window he goes".
Fortunately, Chris was enough of a friend to you that he prevented that
occurance. I was kinda looking forward to watching you drop a couple
stories...woulda been worth it, even with witnesses...you know about
witnesses don't you...uh-huh.
I have also had the pleasure and privledge to meet several of the world
great designers who were fully cognisent of their accomplishments, but
carry themselves in a manner befitting their stature. From over 20
years of dealing with 'Rockstars', there's one thing I've learned...if
you have to tell me who you are, or tell me that you're better than
someone else...you ain't shit. Before you dig out your resume...name
dropping doesn't work either...let's just not go there, I'll go you name
for name...and it doesn't impress me [nor anyone else that's been around
more than two weeks] a damn bit.
Our last meeting was courtesy of George Peterson, in the lobby prior to
this years dreck awards...I was quite pleased that we were able to shake
hands, and say nothing more than a cursory "hello". It was the first
time I had heard you speak without badmouthing Malcolm, nor inflating
your accomplishments.
Now Ace, I don't really care what you did, didn't do, think you did,
what Malcolm did, who built Trident, who broke Trident, who carries a
Trident or if you chew Trident. I see no reason for you to speak ill of
a man, on a professional level, who never caused you any professional
harm. Much like you have never caused me any professional harm...but I
seem to want to speak ill of you...but at least my motives are to defend
my friends, whereas yours seem to be to spread marketing fertilizer
throughout the audio community.
This is personal, you fucked with a friend of mine. Honor may be a
difficult concept for you to grasp, but it isn't for me. The enemies of
my friends are my enemies as well. You speak maliciously of a man who
has too much class to refute your statements, challenge your silliness
publicly...well, he got lucky...I don't have that kind of class.
I've seen copies of some of the faxes you have sent to some of my other
friends that have basicaly called Malcolm a 'spectator' at Trident...out
of bounds, and not fucking true. You did this, you did that, he has no
right to say this, to say that. Yeah, I get sent copies of these
things...how about that shit. Lemme tell ya, you can talk some trash
girlfriend...somehow, I don't see you making these statements to
Malcolm's face...what was that talk about hiding before?
The Trident story goes closer to this...you were assigned tasks, you
were given specifications and parameters [like a minimum of +24 w/<.05%
distortion]. The beauty of Trident was that everyone there was a
recording engineer [remember, the desk company grew out of a recording
studio]...like Malcolm did a couple T.Rex albums, has his name on the
back of Space Oddity, mixed 'Hey Jude'...so like, hey dude...just what
did you record?
There are other designers I know that have legitimate problems with
theft of their intellectual property. Whole companies have emerged from
the 'borrowed' fruits of some pretty clever people's ideas...much to the
detriment of the original designer. While they're up for telling the
story on a one on one basis, while they're definitely bitter [and with
perfect right to be], they don't go sending faxes that unjustly malign
the character of the person(s) that nicked their ideas...and in a social
situation, it's not the first words out of their mouth. Your need to
try to degrade Malcolm's accomplishments is still a bit odd to me, but I
suppose it's your business. Just don't do it in front of me. Unlike
you, I consider the man a friend, unlike you, I stick up for my friends.
You want to be small and petty [OK, you have the small part down...but
can't you at least try to knock off the petty], I have less than no use
for you. Your advertising claims of being the 'Father of British EQ',
no matter what misguided moron first coined the phrase, I find
offensive. Find a new angle...perhaps one based somewhere in reality?
>
> Good luck to you all in this great business
> we work in. The ORAM thing is going great and you'll be hearing about the
> TRIDENT thing again very soon. Keep watching those full page, full colour
> ads., British EQ lives on and of course it's different, it must be: you
> told us so !
Ah yes...lets talk about the new ORAM company a little bit shall we?
So, exactly what are your plans for a digital design engineer for the
Series 48 light show? So, ah, after you [allegedly] hit Tony Cooper,
and he left the company [though he didn't file assault charges,
yet]...and he took you to a tribunal [for non-payment of wages owed],
and you lost, what did you do for design after that? Maybe a promise to
Bill Curtis...or a maybe not. And Trident...last I heard, the name
"Trident Audio Develpments" was owned by a Mexican concern, funny, you
don't look Mexican...maybe I heard wrong.
At the old Trident, while you designed some bits here and there, you
*never* designed a full system. I guess you have taken a stab at
it...here are some notes from John Klett as he tried to get one of your
desks up and running in NYC.
Ladies and Gentlemen...John Klett:
"When Plantain got the console we found that... when mixing the only
way to get a channel to mute all the way was by deselecting the line
input at the top of the channel strip. James had to mix a whole record
muting the channels at the line inputs. If there was a channel panned
to center and simply muted the midband attenuation was about -80 on the
left side and -70 on the right. This is pretty audible when you factor
in the high end was attentuated a lot less.... ...and when the fader
was faded all the way down it only attenuated about -56dB in the midband
- more of a dimmer really.
None of this had anything to do with studio wiring - we measured
all this with the console totally disconnected. Reconnecting the
console really made no difference as the crosstalk in the console itself
swamped out anything that may have been present in the wiring. It
turned out that the wiring from the channel strip to the fader was one
big problem.
We rewired all the faders with new wire - and made a few changes on the
circuit boards in the channels - where and how the various "ground"
connections were made - and got a 30dB improvement in fader cut. The
imbalance in bleed to the right bus was not solved - we got it good
enough to use and had to leave it for later.
As I said we finally got schematics (though not from Oram). The console
we have at Exile is slowly being rebuilt with all the mods to make it
work like it should.
The Plantain console is slated for a new master section. I have
suggested to them that we should get rid of it but we have the inputs
and faders working pretty well now. The remaining problem is the center
section. Here is one crazy thing we found. We had a problem with the
solo. You would solo something and when you lifted the solo button the
console monitor section would remain locked in solo mode. It was
intermittent and we were having a difficult time figuring it out...
them I did. So I called James Murphy (THE engineer at Plantain) in and
showed him...
[The following dialog is exerpted from Klett's new film..."The Johnny
Horror Picture Show"...our first scene has Brad & Janet in the
rain...uh, I mean John and James in the control room....]-F.
John: "Hey James - check this out" [I solo something - unsolo - master
stuck in solo.]
James: "Yeah - so - it's been doing that since we got it."
John: "Okay", "dim the lights"
James: "NOOOOO!"
John: "Do It"
James: "No - you're shitting me"
John: "Dim the fucking lights!" [he dims the lights] "Okay now..." [I
solo something - unsolo - master unsolos]
James: "no shit"
John: "yeah shit... Now turn up the lights" [problem is back]
James: "oh shit"
John: "Now - see this tape? - [putting it across this line of solo
indicator LED's]
James: "yeah"
John: "Okay" [I solo something - unsolo - master unsolos "Tape off"
rip! - problem returns]
James: "How did you figure that out?"
John: "Well - remember when we though it was that crappy little relay
blob he has hanging under this panel and we were tapping - here?... "
[tap tap]
James: "yeah"
John: "see where the shadow of my arm is now?..."
James: "oh yeah"
John: "that is why tapping there seemed to work... but when I was in
here earlier trying to figure this out the lights were down and I
couldn't get it to happen so I turned up the lights so I could read
these drawings and then it started again... ...and I threw the drawings
here"... [flop] ..."and it stopped... ...see where the drawings are"
James: "this is just a big pile of shit isn't it"
John: "yep"
James: "and he has all our money"
John: "yep"
James: "...that fat little fuck"
John: "yep"
........
Anyway ... that was long ago - we have passed all of that and the
console inputs to tape sound good. The Master Section has some major
limitations.
James is having us build up a new master section sometime next year I
guess. He keeps asking for it so I don't think it is going to go away.
In the mean time we got the worst of this stuff fixed - at some
considerable expense to Plantain and with ZERO help from John Oram.
I have not bothered communicating with him since we got the drawings
since it was very obvious to all concerned that he has no clue about
systems. There were some really funny attempts at grounding fixes on
the stereo bus summing amps. Big fat green wires right off the IC pins
to the console chassis ground. I have pictures - it was so sad.
The console at Plantain is slowing going to turn Purple and we will send
pictures to Oram. We are duplicating all this on the one we have at
Exile so it can be sold as a working console - instead of the stock
version which doesn't.
This is all way too bad really because up until this happened I was
digging the Oram outboard gear. John Oram is his own worst enemy. Now
I think he is taking deposits on that light show he calls the 48
Series.
I can't imagine he will ever get that thing working. Before I met him I
spoke with him briefly on the phone about it - maybe two years ago or a
year and a half. It was in it "final stages - almost ready to ship". I
asked him about how he was doing things. He was very vague... ...and in
retrospect I have to imagine he had not one clue.
The ORAM topic is bottomless - we are done with him - we have these two
consoles and that is it.
The saddest part of all this is that people believe him. They buy his
crap and use it and I guess most people really don't realize that it
could be so much better."
Thanks John...wasn't he great...he'll be here all week...
During the time I was waiting for the replies, I went down the street to
a buddy's house...in his basement is his new 'studio of the future'
[Great name too: "The Pork Shoulder Research Kitchen"] He's got the new
Mackie dig desk, MOTU-2408 [I think that's the number], and is about to
sell his adats...a coupla TLM-103's and a one headed kick drum in his
studio drum kit.
British EQ lives on...as a feature on his fuckin' Mackie Digital Desk.
If you're the father of that crap, I'd hate to meet the mother (If
reckon I met the father already, or so I'm told)...after playing with
it, I can guarantee the mother is one stone cold ugly bitch. Perhaps,
being the 'Father of British EQ' is beneath your actual competence...at
least from the tone of that particular 'plug-in' [or whatever the fuck
it's called]. Your work {or at least what you claim is your work, I
dunno for sure] is way better than that...you may be a needle dicked
pompous ass...but your work is better than that shit. Having heard that
feature, perhaps calling you the father of British EQ is such an insult,
it's worthy of your impecable wardrobe.
I'm happy you have an advertising budget...congratulations. Advertise
all you want, work off the Atomic clock, get a fuckin' toupe if it makes
you happy...but you are *not* the father of British EQ, no more than you
are Mary Queen of Scots, nor modest about your accomplishments...if you
are taking credit for the "British EQ" in the new Mackie digital desks
as well...all I can say is, wow...you got what you asked for. Father of
that shit...I'd rather be the father of John Wayne Gasey.
>
> Be pleased to talk more with anyone, abusive or not. Call toll
> free [we can afford it] on 1-888 ORAM PRO or spend the buck on 011 44 1474
> 815300
>
> Watch out for the new name.
>
> THE LITTLE MONKEY
>
Ya know...that has a ring to it..."The Little Monkey of British EQ"...I
could buy that one. You seem to have budget these days, why don't you
test market it and see if it draws flys...it certainly seems to fit
better.
If anyone has the pedigree [at least in terms of market perception] to
call themselves the "father of British EQ"...he lives in Texas. Last I
checked...you may be whacko, but don't live anywhere near Waco [nor
Austin for that matter]. Funny, the same guy that has the pedigree, at
least in terms of market perception, seems to shun the title. If you
want to be some kind of cult leader...move to Texas too...there's an
opening for a cult leader in Waco...which is closer to Austin, and the
guy I would call the Father of British EQ.
I will leave you with a couple of Barry Porter quotes I also found on
Deja News...
> As one of the original designers of the British EQ (Trident A Range,
> Cadac, Raindirk etc) I would categorically state that all the crap about
> British EQ is a pile of horseshit, largely put around by one or two
> people with I.Q's about 25 percent smaller than their shoe size
> --
> Barry E Porter
> Professional Audio Creativity
>
> (end of original message)
>
> ----
Our thread starts with a small funny I put up about 'British
EQ'...followed by a snip of response by Rick Novak...followed by Barry
Porter's final comments...I couldn't make this shit up if I tried!!!-F.
> Subject: Re: and.....Who can describe "british EQ" ??
> From: Barry E Porter <Ba...@porterdesign.demon.co.uk>
> Date: 1998/07/07
> Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
> In article <6mq8ne$j...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, Rick Novak
> <rick...@worldnet.att.net> writes
> >Fletcher wrote:
> >...there's as much a "british eq" as
> >> their is a NY eq: (I'm not telling you again...get that fuckin' vocal out
> >> front, I ain't fuckin' around here), German eq (you vill separate from
> >> zee guitars, unt you vill do it now!!!).
> >>
> >Fletcher's back! And in top form. I'm still laughing. R.N.
>
> As the designer of several British EQ's, and consoles (Trident A range,
> Cadac etc) I can happily confirm Fletchers opinions.
> The EQ of 70's stuff was invariably based on standard tone control
> techniques for the HF and LF, and coils for the MF, all wrapped around a
> two or three transistor amplifier. Distortion was high, but as there was
> plenty of 2nd harmonic, it sounded pretty good. In the late 70's, when
> people were moving to single transistor gyrators, I developed a system
> based on a dual inverter main signal path with state variable filters
> for the peaking sections and single pole high and low pass for the HF
> and LF shelving sections. This design, which I initially used in a rack
> mounting EQ sold by Audio+Design, was first used in a Cadac console. It
> was then "borrowed" (or stolen - take your pick) by several UK console
> manufacturers, leading to a rather nasty argument between myself and
> Soundcraft. I resolved this by publishing the circuit in Wireless World
> magazine for all to use. Most applications of it have been awful, caused
> mainly by the use of TL072 op-amps and the like, and the refusal of
> others to bother to find a source of centre-tapped pots, which are
> essential to stop interaction between the sections and to maintain a
> constant Q characteristic.
> I would be the last to claim that this EQ had the British sound - by all
> accounts, if it is implemented properly, it has an extremely neutral
> sound. As for John Oram's claim to be the father of the British EQ, I
> fall about laughing. He has obviously never heard of Rupert Neve or
> Richard Swettenham, who were putting EQ's into consoles years before his
> hair started falling out (I can laugh - I've still got all mine)
> According to one magazine review of his EQ's, he gets his unique sound
> by having several dB of mid-range lift permanently in place, even when
> everything is set flat or is in bypass. Maybe the father of the British
> hype would be more appropriate...
> --
> Barry E Porter
>
> (end of original message)
>
>
> Just to put things straight, John Oram was not involved in the A range.
> Malcolm Toft and I were totally responsible. Malcolm did the systems and
> I did the circuitry and laid out the PCB's.
> --
> Barry E Porter
Have a wonderful weekend.
mindseye
Bill Pearson
Mindseye Productions
MARK E LIERLY
I am that American who first called Mr. Oram the "Father of British EQ".
The moniker was subsequently used by SoundTech in an advertising campaign to
promote a line of mixers Mr. Oram designed.
Mark Lierly
Fletcher <Flet...@mercenary.com> wrote in message
news:3819AC...@mercenary.com...
> > The "British EQ" title [as used by us here]
> > was actually created by an American at a seminar session and exploited
by the
> > marketing team of a company selling several of my products.
>
>
> That American would be who? I know one American that said "Braves in
> 6"...and he's a fucking moron too. On what authority would someone make
> such a bullshit claim? The marketing team selling several of your
> products...we'll assume that would be *your* company...seeing as the
> phrase is in all of *your* firm's advertisments. I called you "a
> pompous little ass"...I'm an American...why don't you try using that one
> in an advert?
>
Steve Jackson
meeting John Bardeen a couple of years before he died. (In case you don't know,
he was the co-inventor of the transistor and the only person to ever win two Nobel
prizes in the same field). Without his contributions to the field of electronics,
we might still be doing all of our audio recording using tube amplifiers. The
event was a ceremony at the University of Illinois for the presentation of an
endowed chair in Bardeen's name by Sony Corporation.
Nick Holonyak, Jr. (inventor of the SCR, L.E.D., and semiconductor laser diode
and Bardeen's first Ph.D. student) was showing a bunch of the attendees some of
Bardeen's awards (Presidential Medal of Science, both Nobel Prize medallions,
Soviet Medal of Science, etc.), which were on display in a glass case. Bardeen
was just standing off to the side by himslf, seemingly not understanding why
everyone was making such a big deal. I later learned that this was typical of
him.
It seems that some of the individuals who have made the greatest contributions
to their fields are frequently the least vocal about their accomplishments and
unfortunately the ones who wish they had made great contributions (legends in
their own minds) are the most vocal. Live and learn!!!
Steve
Mixerman
>we might still be doing all of our audio recording using tube amplifiers.
Hmmm...
>still be doing all of our audio recording using tube amplifiers
Double hmm....
>recording using tube amplifiers
Hmm, hmm, hmmm...
...well I won't go into it.
Mixerman
M
Mixerman wrote in message <7vd4cn$rq3$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
I thought the twilight zone thing was about to start raising the hair on my
neck... hehe..
I swear, I could see your face getting bigger...
PS: I don't know where this all started, but I've really never heard an Oram
anything that I thought I could use..
=|
M
(warp to spring to mail)
M
M wrote in message <7vd6cd$7ru$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>...
>PS: I don't know where this all started, but I've really never heard an
Oram
>anything that I thought I could use..
sorry, that sounds harsher than a 414 thru a Radio Shack line mixer..
I really meant, "...that couldn't be replaced by something I liked much
better"..
;-)
M
Mark McQuilken
>
> Fletcher,
> I am that American who first called Mr. Oram the "Father of British EQ".
> The moniker was subsequently used by SoundTech in an advertising campaign to
> promote a line of mixers Mr. Oram designed.
> Mark Lierly
>
I hope that you were saying it as a joke, Mark! I'm sure you were,
'cause nobody could be sincerely THAT stupid...
The Father of Austin EQ,
McQ
__
Mark McQuilken
FMR Audio
www.fmraudio.com
(800)343-9976 - US Only
(512)280-6557 Voice
(512)280-8627 Fax
Mark McQuilken
>
(snippage)
>
> The Father of Austin EQ,
> McQ
>
Okay, okay...I lost my head a little bit--I'm not the FATHER of Austin
EQ! But the voices in my head told me so...
The Godfather of a friend of a friend that /knew/ the Father of Austin
EQ (in Austin),
jim andrews
>
> Mark McQuilken wrote:
> >
> (snippage)
> >
> > The Father of Austin EQ,
> > McQ
> >
>
> Okay, okay...I lost my head a little bit--I'm not the FATHER of Austin
> EQ! But the voices in my head told me so...
>
> The Godfather of a friend of a friend that /knew/ the Father of Austin
> EQ (in Austin),
There was this time I met this gal in a bar, she
claimed her dad was a chop-jock in 'nam with the
next-door-neighbor of the Father Of Austin EQ. I
told her she was full of shit, because everybody
knows that David Grissom moved here from Indiana.
jim andrews (not sure what that meant)
basset sound
austin, tejas
MARK E LIERLY
I do not appreciate your "stupid" comment. My post was not intended as a
joke.
Prior to SoundTech launching a $500,000 advertising campaign, I did take the
time to personally investigate and review all the documentation and
photographs that detailed Mr. Orams electronic design history.
Additionally, I reviewed letters of reference from Mr. Orams previous
consulting clients, including Malcolm Toft, formerly of Trident, that spoke
highly of his design expertise.
Obviously, some may feel that my giving Mr. Oram the moniker "Father of
British EQ" was not deserved.
However, after reviewing his body of work, I feel there are few individuals
in history who have done as much to bring the "British Sound" to more end
users, at affordable prices, than John Oram and the companies he has worked
for and on behalf of.
No doubt, Mr. Oram is a flamboyant and colorful individual, as many in our
industry are.
This is apparently a real problem for some people. I have read repeated
offensive and very personal attacks on Mr. Oram in this newsgroup, I think
it needs to stop.
I would suggest to the attackers that before they attempt to deride or sully
Mr. Orams work and personal reputation, they VERIFY the facts and history
involved, FIRST HAND, as I have, and not just depend on allegations, hearsay
and conjecture.
There are two sides to every story.....especially those that come from
disgruntled
ex-employees and competitors.
Sincerely,
Mark Lierly
Mark McQuilken <ma...@fmraudio.com> wrote in message
news:381A29...@fmraudio.com...
> MARK E LIERLY wrote:
> I hope that you were saying it as a joke, Mark! I'm sure you were,
> 'cause nobody could be sincerely THAT stupid...
>
oram...@my-deja.com
Too late unfortunately to grab our Attorney. I hope your cash and assets are
as big as your mouth and can stand the strain Fletch.,
For the sake of truth and avoiding the risk of counter-defamation, we'll be
publishing a "for your eyes only" document. Available to whoever calls our
phone lines, or requests e-mail.
I trust also you have the authority of all those you quoted who by
implication are now involved. For those not aware of the true facts, you will
notice his confirmation of his first meeting with me. Check out the date of
that show and then look at postings and attitude / remarks he made well
before that time. You'll then understand my reaction at that first meet.
Sad it all comes to this.
JOHN ORAM
DStern
Could you please define "the British Sound" and "British EQ"?
Rick Knepper
I'm not really interested in the British EQ thing.
However, I am curious as to which jurisdiction you think your lawyers will be
suing in.
And as for cash and assets - two words - Chapter Seven.
--
Rick Knepper
Wasted Potential Productions
MicroComputer Support Services
Po Box 1461
Ft. Worth, TX 76101
817-737-4002 or 817-239-9632
Project Studio
CD Duplication - Budget Short Runs
PC Tech Support & Equipment Sales
http://www.wastedpotential.com
david gourley
<7vd6so$f58$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>:
>
>M wrote in message <7vd6cd$7ru$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>...
>sorry, that sounds harsher than a 414 thru a Radio Shack line mixer..
yow!!
thanks for THAT word-image <g>.
david
pro...@sympatico.ca
a public matter anymore?
Thanks.
Martin
M
oram...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Sad it all comes to this.
>
>JOHN ORAM
Fletcher wrote:
>something I missed!
I hope this isn't over the Father of British eq thing, everyone knows it was
really a French immigrant.
M
(I'll be on your side, if you send me alot of free stuff... either one of
you.)
order of *want*:
1. Esoteric mic pairs
2. Esoteric mic pres. (pairs)
3. Esoterica. (family sized...couple should do)
Mike Rivers
> Prior to SoundTech launching a $500,000 advertising campaign, I did take the
> time to personally investigate and review all the documentation and
> photographs that detailed Mr. Orams electronic design history.
> I would suggest to the attackers that before they attempt to deride or sully
> Mr. Orams work and personal reputation, they VERIFY the facts and history
> involved, FIRST HAND, as I have, and not just depend on allegations, hearsay
> and conjecture.
Sounds to me like you and Fletcher did about the same thing and came
to very different conclusions. It happens now and then even in real
scientific research, and I'm certain that this sort of difference in
interpretation of data is even more common in the world of marketing.
Who cares who the "Father of British EQ" is when we can't even
accurately characterize "British EQ" to differentiate it from any
other EQ that someone chooses to name (or not). I'm willing to accept
it as an advertising slogan and move on. But if, as John Klett's
input implies, Mr. Oram is the primary person responsible for the
design of a console which needed a lot rework (not redesign, but just
implementing the design in the proper way way), that's a problem. I
hope he's got some help to smooth over his bumps now.
--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mri...@d-and-d.com)
Bob Smith
>
> Got young Fletcher's item last night late. Thought it would never stop !
>
> Too late unfortunately to grab our Attorney. I hope your cash and assets are
> as big as your mouth and can stand the strain Fletch.,
>
> For the sake of truth and avoiding the risk of counter-defamation, we'll be
> publishing a "for your eyes only" document. Available to whoever calls our
> phone lines, or requests e-mail.
>
It has been my experience that when a single individual claims
responsibility for some large influence in the development of a
particular field of interest, that there are a lot of other individuals
whose work enabled or allowed for the influence whose work never gets
credited. I've seen examples of a few professors whose grad students did
the research, the work, the sweat but the prof took the credit. When the
prof gets employed as a consultant, it becomes apparent over time that
the individual is pretty much clueless as to the fundamentals underlying
the body of work he or she claimed credit for. I've had mfg industry
'pros' try to smoke potential customers on how great they are, only to
get burned when it becomes obvious said 'pros' don't really hold the
body of knowledge but rather some other individuals who no longer are
available for whatever reasons. I get gut-feel red flags every time I
see someone promoting themselves as having been responsible for some
earthshaking development. I don't know the facts in this particular
case, but my past experiences give me reason to pause before accepting
what I believe to be marketing hype regarding this particular topic.
As to the lawyers - what a waste. The only possible good to come from
that route of conflict resolution will be the possible education of said
attorneys' offspring from the funds wasted on such a pissing match. The
taxpayers will get to foot the bill of providing for the legal system in
which the drama unfolds. This really ticks me off, being one of the many
taxpayers whose taxes are squandered in such cases. I feel the courts
have better things to do with their time than be utilized to resolve
such pissing matches. And before lecturing me about such matters, I have
spent personal time and more money than I'd care to think about on both
civil and criminal issues in our judicial system. I've seen first hand
what goes on. Most of the time it is just pathetic. My own cases were
favorable to me, but the other cases I had to sit through before my time
in court really were enlightening.
bobs
Amateur Recordist
--
Bob Smith - BS Studios
http://www.bsstudios.com/
rsm...@oz.net
hank alrich
<snipitty doo dah>
> For the sake of truth
<snipitty yay>
Yes, for that alone, you might step forward into this forum and address
the issues of console manufacturing quality brought up in stringent
detail by Mr. Klett, for in the long run, it is information such as that
which will affect a prospective customer's view of the quality of your
products and the credibility of your claims.
--
hank - secret mountain
Note: the rec.audio.pro FAQ is at http://recordist.com/rap-faq/current
Read it and reap!
Mark McQuilken
>
> Mr. McQuilken,
>
> I do not appreciate your "stupid" comment. My post was not intended as a
> joke.
Mr. Lierly,
I did not mean to be offensive, as I *really* thought your post was an
intentional effort at humor! Please accept my apologies...
>
> Prior to SoundTech launching a $500,000 advertising campaign, I did take the
> time to personally investigate and review all the documentation and
> photographs that detailed Mr. Orams electronic design history.
> Additionally, I reviewed letters of reference from Mr. Orams previous
> consulting clients, including Malcolm Toft, formerly of Trident, that spoke
> highly of his design expertise.
>
> Obviously, some may feel that my giving Mr. Oram the moniker "Father of
> British EQ" was not deserved.
Deserved or not, if it’s independently verifiable or not, he should be
properly credited or discredited accordingly.
>
> However, after reviewing his body of work, I feel there are few individuals
> in history who have done as much to bring the "British Sound" to more end
> users, at affordable prices, than John Oram and the companies he has worked
> for and on behalf of.
It’s good for Mr. Oram that YOU have reached this conclusion. It’s OK
for YOU to reach that conclusion, but pardon me if the rest of us don’t!
I don’t even think that the claim passes the “common sense” test (for
example, given Mr. Oram’s age, there are other significant designers who
were designing before Mr. Oram was alive. This is not to say that Mr.
Oram didn’t innovate and doesn’t deserve the moniker, there’s just
enough factual doubt that begs to be investigated)! Before I accept
anything that anyone (including myself) claims as FACT, I’ve got to see
some independently verifiable and corroborative evidence. Otherwise,
it’s just OPINION and SHOULD BE REPRESENTED AS SUCH (is the FOBE
appropriately represented as Mr. Lierly’s opinion or portrayed as
fact?).
>
> No doubt, Mr. Oram is a flamboyant and colorful individual, as many in our
> industry are.
> This is apparently a real problem for some people. I have read repeated
> offensive and very personal attacks on Mr. Oram in this newsgroup, I think
> it needs to stop.
I don’t think flamboyance and color is an issue AT ALL. I don’t know Mr.
Oram, never met him and never used his gear. His flamboyance and
personal character (good or bad) have nothing to do with the outright
silliness of this FOBE thing! I don’t know enough about Mr. Oram to HAVE
a problem with his alleged flamboyance/color. With respect to offensive
and personal attacks: I don’t think it’s ever a good idea to attack in
such a manner (but that’s my opinion). However, as with many companies
these days, much of the grief that people have with some companies is
exacerbated by the company’s own promotions (look at Motorola: Their
exhortation of “Total Customer Satisfaction” is just plain bullshit.
What they really mean to say--and do through their actions--is: “if
you’re a top 20 customer, we want to keep you happy...all the rest of
you, we’ll give what we can, after that, you’re on your own. Being a
customer of Motorola’s for about 19 years, their actions speak louder
than their attempt to placate the uninitiated and their board of
directors). This is the case here, in my opinion. Whenever grandiose
claims are made, the burden of proof is upon the claimant. BTW, did you
(or Mr. Oram) ever consider that the FOBE moniker just may be offensive
to others?
>
> I would suggest to the attackers that before they attempt to deride or sully
> Mr. Orams work and personal reputation, they VERIFY the facts and history
> involved, FIRST HAND, as I have, and not just depend on allegations, hearsay
> and conjecture.
And *I* would suggest to you and Mr. Oram that if you/he wish to avoid
these types of “attacks” that you/he stop playing the “marketing” game
and make only substantiated claims. You know, it might even be wise to
realize that if a claim is more controversial--whether or not it’s
true--that maybe it’s best NOT to use it!
>
> There are two sides to every story.....especially those that come from
> disgruntled
> ex-employees and competitors.
My response has nothing to do with input from disgruntled ex-employees
or competitors.
That being said, I want articulate a little more on my personal
objections to this Oram/FOBE stuff:
* We are entitled, by right, to say whatever we want to...within limits
— Whether or not someone, somewhere said that John Oram is the FOBE
really doesn’t matter to me...in and of itself. Let’s face it, we can
all say whatever we WANT to, but saying something doesn’t make it so.
So, if you’ve decided for yourself that John Oram is the FOBE, that’s
fine. It’s even fine if you had the budget from SoundTech to propagate
your opinion to the masses. Whether or not I agree with your opinion is
up to me...BTW, I don’t. Although subject to interpretation, what is
being used as a marketing “sound-bite”, based upon “research” (of
unknown quality/quantity/methodology) of historical evidence, is seeping
into the common-consciousness as “fact” (“historical revisionism”
springs to mind). This should be as much concern to Mr. Oram as it is to
the public. If reasonably-executed historical research proves out that
you/Mr. Oram’s claim is the *truth*, we all win! But, BEWARE! We
consumers are starting to hold firms accountable (witness: The
Publisher’s Clearing House class-action suit) for publically-made
statements, to demand REAL truth in advertising. Making unqualified
claims, such as Mr. Oram’s firm does, is an intent to lead the public
into spending money based upon an unsubstantiated pedigree. Until such a
claim (as FOBE) can be reasonably, independently and objectively
validated, the firm using such claim stands to be confronted with the
type of response seen here. Maybe until this evidence is historically
corroborated, the claim should be presented with qualification (like a
little asterisk next to FOBE, saying “according to Mark Lierly”)... If
Mr. Oram’s substance as a designer is truly THAT GREAT, than why not
base product promotions upon his glorious (and irrefutable) experience
instead of a questionable and (apparently) aggravating claim? Obviously
Mr. Oram’s entitled to do whatever he wants...whether it’s popular or
not, BUT these types of claims are likely to be continually met with
skeptism and controversy until substantiated. Since we (royal) also
believe that truly GREAT men are most humble, such pontifications leave
us wondering...
* Until FOBE is defined, it’s SPIN -- (Okay, here’s my bias:
Clarification and illumination are GOOD...vagueness and hyperbole are
BAD.) We’re increasingly becoming a society of spin and, if standardized
testing of our youth is any indication (along with many other factors),
a society with the ever-decreasing ability to separate fact from
fiction, substance from style. Personally, I see *GRAVE* ramifications
of this (that’s another story). Unwittingly (or not), you and Mr. Oram’s
firm are contributing to what many perceive as a problem by generating
nonsensical “information” in the form unsubstantiated hyperbole. Until
the phrases “British EQ” and “The British Sound” have been defined, by
(at least) a recognized source, they remain only to lead and confuse.
After all, if you remain vague about the meaning of such terms, how can
you (royal) be taken to task for them?
I wish all the best to you and Mr. Oram. If he’s as great as you say, I
(and other consumers) shall ultimately benefit from his expertise in
great products that we can afford and use! If, however, the FOBE moniker
is a marketing straw-man (or, if factual, just in poor taste), we
consumers will also win by exposing it for what it is...
Kindest regards,
McQ
Bill Roberts
oram...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Got young Fletcher's item last night late. Thought it would never stop !
>
> Too late unfortunately to grab our Attorney. I hope your cash and assets are
> as big as your mouth and can stand the strain Fletch.,
>
> For the sake of truth and avoiding the risk of counter-defamation, we'll be
> publishing a "for your eyes only" document. Available to whoever calls our
> phone lines, or requests e-mail.
>
> I trust also you have the authority of all those you quoted who by
> implication are now involved. For those not aware of the true facts, you will
> notice his confirmation of his first meeting with me. Check out the date of
> that show and then look at postings and attitude / remarks he made well
> before that time. You'll then understand my reaction at that first meet.
>
> Sad it all comes to this.
>
> JOHN ORAM
Well, Mr Oram, you have certainly guaranteed that I will never buy
any of your products. I think you have guaranteed the same thing with
a lot of readers of this group. Which happens to comprise a fairly
good percentage of the pro audio market. Good work!
-- Bill
Rick Novak
> I feel there are few individuals
> in history who have done as much to bring the "British Sound" to more end
> users, at affordable prices, than John Oram
Ah, so what you really mean is to call Oram "The Father Of *BUDGET* British
EQ"!
Like Greg Mackie would be the "Father Of Budget American EQ". No one would
argue with that. The big difference is that Mackie gives the immediate
impression of being a nice guy.
Rick Novak.
hank alrich
> MARK E LIERLY wrote:
>
> > I feel there are few individuals
> > in history who have done as much to bring the "British Sound" to more end
> > users, at affordable prices, than John Oram
>
> Ah, so what you really mean is to call Oram "The Father Of *BUDGET* British
> EQ"!
"The First Cousin of Mediocrity"
Scott Dorsey
>
> Nick Holonyak, Jr. (inventor of the SCR, L.E.D., and semiconductor laser diode
>and Bardeen's first Ph.D. student) was showing a bunch of the attendees some of
>Bardeen's awards (Presidential Medal of Science, both Nobel Prize medallions,
>Soviet Medal of Science, etc.), which were on display in a glass case. Bardeen
>was just standing off to the side by himslf, seemingly not understanding why
>everyone was making such a big deal. I later learned that this was typical of
>him.
Now, compare this with the behaviour of Dr. Shockley, who was on the
same team.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Eleven Shadows
hank alrich wrote:
> Rick Novak <rick...@att.net> wrote:
>
> > MARK E LIERLY wrote:
> >
> > > I feel there are few individuals
> > > in history who have done as much to bring the "British Sound" to more end
> > > users, at affordable prices, than John Oram
> >
> > Ah, so what you really mean is to call Oram "The Father Of *BUDGET* British
> > EQ"!
Hey, be careful! You may get
suuuuuuuuuuued!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
--
Ken/Eleven Shadows/d i t h er
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Irian Jaya" and "Sangsara" CDs now available! * Real Audio!
Morocco*Spain*Peru*Himalayas*Kashmir*Ladakh*India Photos!
http://www.theeleventhhour.com/elevenshadows
d i t h er CD!! http://www.mp3.com/d__i__t__h__er.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mixerman
Mixerman
Rick Knepper wrote in message <381BCE1C...@home.com>...
>Geoff Tanner wrote:
>
>> Hi Dennis
>>
>> Yes, they are made in Hollywood, CA, which I think is in the USA!
>
>As a matter of geography, you are correct.
Geoff Tanner
>
>
> Yes, for that alone, you might step forward into this forum and
address
> the issues of console manufacturing quality brought up in stringent
> detail by Mr. Klett, for in the long run, it is information such as
that
> which will affect a prospective customer's view of the quality of your
> products and the credibility of your claims.
>
> hank - secret mountain
Hi Hank
Indeed, that aspect of the original post made me sit up and take note as
I have the greatest of respect for John Klett and include him on the
links from our web site.
I have a client with similar problems to those discussed by John and he
is currently having the entire center section of the console rebuilt by
his engineers. My only contribution to this upgrade is to supply him our
class A output stages, as per their request.
--
Geoff Tanner
phoeni...@earthlink.net
http://www.phoenixaudio.com
phone: 323 462 4373
Rick Knepper
EdGerhard
Cheers,
Ed
Geoff Tanner
"MARK E LIERLY" <BENSONA...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> Obviously, some may feel that my giving Mr. Oram the moniker "Father
> of British EQ" was not deserved.
Hi
For my 2c' worth, I believe that your donating this moniker was
flattering to John but somewhat naive.
I believe that you will find that Arthur Rupert Neve has had far more
influence on the music industry, since his first console in 1961.
This contribution has been recognised by the fact that his equalisers
and consoles are still much sought after across the world.
Neither he nor any of the Neve designers had any desire to be addressed
as Father of British EQ or we would have seen the title displayed
sooner.
I don't even believe there is such a thing as a "British" EQ sound!
(Amek = Ams = Audio Design = Cadac = Calrec = etc., ?)
But apparently you do!
Roger W. Norman
There's no defamation of character or slanderous intent in Fletcher's
message, nor does inclusion of one's conversations with others implicate
them as accessories after the fact (now they may have some legal standing on
the issue). I'm sure that once you do talk to your attorney he'll be most
inclined to tell you to forget about it and just go on doing whatever you're
doing. It's obvious that you guys don't get along for whatever reason, but
just as it would be better to cross the street rather than come in contact
with each other, it would be best if the whole thing were dropped here with
both sides being neither 100% correct or 100% incorrect. You obviously have
your defenders as well as your detractors. That's a natural conclusion to
any type of public persona, and it cuts both ways with each of you. I doubt
seriously that anything said on this newsgroup is going to adversely effect
your company's products, and if you indeed do have product that needs work
after receipt then it would appear you have some tightening up of your ship
to contend with. It's doable, it's responsible and it's not defamitory to
suggest so. If it's not true, then you'd need to pursue the reasons behind
what you appear to consider an assault. If the one case that Fletcher
presented to the newsgroup is true, then you really don't have a leg to
stand on in court on this or that side of the pond. The only way you'd have
a chance is if it never happened, ever. One fuck up in business is all it
takes to alleviate any responsibility on the part of the injured. If it did
happen as indicated you need to find out who was responsible for dropping
the ball and attack the problem there (even if it were you who indeed
dropped the ball - hell man, it happens to everybody once in a while). I'm
certain you could probably find plenty of users of your products to support
your contentions and your business' responsibility in supporting your
products. If your contentions and credibility are strained by this
exchange, then perhaps it's because they could be strained. If not, then
why extend yourself?
Anyway, just some thoughts. This exchange is a hell of alot different than
what the original post asked, which was "is there such a thing as British
EQ".
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
301-585-4681
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and annoys the
pig."
Robert Heinlein
<oram...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7ves3r$hlb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Got young Fletcher's item last night late. Thought it would never stop !
>
> Too late unfortunately to grab our Attorney. I hope your cash and assets
are
> as big as your mouth and can stand the strain Fletch.,
>
> For the sake of truth and avoiding the risk of counter-defamation, we'll
be
> publishing a "for your eyes only" document. Available to whoever calls
our
> phone lines, or requests e-mail.
>
> I trust also you have the authority of all those you quoted who by
> implication are now involved. For those not aware of the true facts, you
will
> notice his confirmation of his first meeting with me. Check out the date
of
> that show and then look at postings and attitude / remarks he made well
> before that time. You'll then understand my reaction at that first meet.
>
> Sad it all comes to this.
>
> JOHN ORAM
>
>
hank alrich
> Geoff Tanner wrote:
>
> > Hi Dennis
> >
> > Yes, they are made in Hollywood, CA, which I think is in the USA!
>
> As a matter of geography, you are correct.
So, Geoff is "The Father of Hollywood EQ"? Does he get one of those
star-in-the-sidewalk deals?
--
hank - secret mountain
hank alrich
> So, who's the unwed mother of British EQ? ;-)
> Cheers,
Hmmmm...a pregnant question; now who's gonna step forward...
Mike Rivers
> If reasonably-executed historical research proves out that
> you/Mr. Oram’s claim is the *truth*, we all win! But, BEWARE! We
> consumers are starting to hold firms accountable (witness: The
> Publisher’s Clearing House class-action suit) for publically-made
> statements, to demand REAL truth in advertising. Making unqualified
> claims, such as Mr. Oram’s firm does, is an intent to lead the public
> into spending money based upon an unsubstantiated pedigree.
This is the real point of these discussions. There are few places in
marketing where "follow the leader" is the norm than in the audio
industry. We CAN be fooled, and manufacturers and marketeers have
learned this and used it to their advantage.
Back in the days when British EQ was "fathered" (if indeed it was at
all), the customers for equalization - outboard or inboard - were
relatively few, and they could all listen and decide on their own what
they liked and what they wanted to work with. This is not the case
today. With hundreds of thousands of consoles sold today, clearly a
majority of the buyers don't have the skills to understand what
they're hearing (many even buy without hearing, but simply by
reputation or recommendation).
Without any other frame of reference for the sound and effectiveness
of an equalizer, one carrying the name of the originator of a mystical
(or is that "mythical"?) design sounds like a pretty good bet, doesn't
it? So, the FOBE title is a valuable marketing tool, worth plenty of
sales (which may well pay for plenty of lawyer time to keep the right
to use that tool).
If "Father of British EQ" was represented as a service mark rather
than as a skilled and perceptive designer, we would understand. But
apparently there's a real claim here. Is Earl Scheib a skilled auto
painter? Is Betty Crocker a great cook? Those are service marks. Is
John Oram a real audio designer? Probably so. Is he a good one?
There's some controversy, as there will always be in this field. No
big deal. Will his name help to sell equipment? Sure, if enough
people believe that he's the big kuhuna, and this is what the
marketeers are going to promote to the customers who don't know enough
to recognize anything else but a name.
** Tommy Hilfinger T-shirtless in Falls Church
john/blackcabin
> Back in the days when British EQ was "fathered" (if indeed it was at
> all), the customers for equalization - outboard or inboard - were
> relatively few, and they could all listen and decide on their own what
> they liked and what they wanted to work with. This is not the case
> today. With hundreds of thousands of consoles sold today, clearly a
> majority of the buyers don't have the skills to understand what
> they're hearing (many even buy without hearing, but simply by
> reputation or recommendation).
Good post Mike.
This paragraph alone speaks volumes on the current state of affairs in
both the so called "pro-audio industry" and "pro-sumer markets".
Sad, very sad indeed.
John
--
the little house that rocks
www.blackcabin.com
931-358-0114
"The purpose of the soundcheck is to arrive at a convergence between band
and soundman, to determine who is deaf, where and by how much, and make
each other a little deafer."
- Tommy Womack from the "Cheese Chronicles" -
Mark McQuilken
>
> In article <7vdo67$1otc$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> "MARK E LIERLY" <BENSONA...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> > Obviously, some may feel that my giving Mr. Oram the moniker "Father
> > of British EQ" was not deserved.
>
> Hi
>
> For my 2c' worth, I believe that your donating this moniker was
> flattering to John but somewhat naive.
>
> I believe that you will find that Arthur Rupert Neve has had far more
> influence on the music industry, since his first console in 1961.
>
> This contribution has been recognised by the fact that his equalisers
> and consoles are still much sought after across the world.
>
> Neither he nor any of the Neve designers had any desire to be addressed
> as Father of British EQ or we would have seen the title displayed
> sooner.
(snippage)
> --
> Geoff Tanner
It's always the GREAT ONES (Mr. Neve *AND* his old crew) that prefer
their work to speak for itself! Well put, Geoff!
Cheers,
McQ
__
Mark McQuilken
FMR Audio
www.fmraudio.com
(800)343-9976 - US Only
(512)280-6557 Voice
(512)280-8627 Fax
Rick Knepper
>
> Neither he nor any of the Neve designers had any desire to be addressed
> as Father of British EQ or we would have seen the title displayed sooner.
>
>
Neve lives in Austin. He prefers the "Father of British BBQ" nowadays.
Mark McQuilken
>
> >
>
> Neve lives in Austin. He prefers the "Father of British BBQ" nowadays.
> --
> Rick Knepper
"The Father of Austin BBQ cooked by a (expat) Brit"?
His cabrito is really good too...if you like that sort of thing! But the
best thing is that he's always making sure that I've got a beer in my
hand!
BBQing and DRINKing in Austin,
McQ <hick!>
hank alrich
> It's always the GREAT ONES (Mr. Neve *AND* his old crew) that prefer
> their work to speak for itself! Well put, Geoff!
And right now the work of Mr. Tanner and crew is speaking to me. I'll
bet a Phoenix GTQ2 smokes anything from Oram whether we're talking off
the line or a damn endurance race. "She can dance a Cajun rhythm, jus'
like a Willys in fourwheel drive". The Phoenix leaves big streaks where
the rubber meets the road. I wonder, with the Oram, are there just
rubbers all over the road?
hank alrich
> Geoff Tanner wrote:
>
> >
> > Neither he nor any of the Neve designers had any desire to be addressed
> > as Father of British EQ or we would have seen the title displayed sooner.
> >
> >
>
> Neve lives in Austin. He prefers the "Father of British BBQ" nowadays.
Uh oh...Rick, you're gonna hear from Lyle about this...
Lyle Caldwell
What we have here is... failure to communicate...
Barbecue is pork. Not cow, but pork. If you like your pork rare, you're a
brave man.
BBQ is not seared, either. Slow cooked.
Sauce is for the table. BBQ is dry rubs and basting liquid.
Everything you're describing is grilling. And it sounds like you know how
to grill a mean steak. But don't get delusions of grandeur...
--
Lyle Caldwell
Psionic Music
Composer, Producer, Arranger
cald...@bellsouth.net
"Gimme some money" - David St. Hubbins
Rick Knepper <rickr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:381D0FFF...@home.com...
> Mark McQuilken wrote:
> hank wrote:
>
> > Uh oh...Rick, you're gonna hear from Lyle about this...
> >
>
> I think I remember that thread. I guess he's still wrong. <g>
>
> Besides, it ain't about sauces - it's about how to eat meat. Anybody who
> knows anything about eating meat will tell ya that all it takes is passing
> the carcass across the flame a couple of times to sear the outside. If
> there's any pink on the inside, it's overdone. The only real condiment for
> meat is a spoon of salt.
>
> Bon appetit (French for heart attack)
> --
> Rick Knepper
Mixerman
>And right now the work of Mr. Tanner and crew is speaking to me. I'll
>bet a Phoenix GTQ2 smokes anything from Oram whether we're talking off
>the line or a damn endurance race. "She can dance a Cajun rhythm, jus'
>like a Willys in fourwheel drive". The Phoenix leaves big streaks where
>the rubber meets the road. I wonder, with the Oram, are there just
>rubbers all over the road?
>
Watch out! You could get thued for that comment!
The following methage wath brought to you with the uth of an Oram De-ether.
You know...the blue onths (that eth broke through because there'th no
frecuenthy adjuthtment!)
Mitherman
No thpell check wath uthed in thith methage!
Jay - Atlanta Digital
eleven...@theeleventhhour.com wrote:
> hank alrich wrote:
>
> > Rick Novak <rick...@att.net> wrote:
> >
> > > MARK E LIERLY wrote:
> > >
> > > > I feel there are few individuals
> > > > in history who have done as much to bring the "British Sound" to
more end
> > > > users, at affordable prices, than John Oram
> > >
> > > Ah, so what you really mean is to call Oram "The Father Of *BUDGET*
British
> > > EQ"!
>
> Hey, be careful! You may get
> suuuuuuuuuuued!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
>
That seems to be how certain people respond to criticism. I agree with
many that the title "FOBEQ" is used in poor taste, but that it also makes
good marketing sense. He can get the market segment he's after with that
slogan, while alienating another one that he might not be as interested
in. This is his right, and it's making him a good living. What I would
like to see is a bit of a thicker skin and a willingness to state his case
in more specific and respectful manner in this forum. Again, It's his
right to remain silent and pursue other avenues. It seems strange that he
would threaten those who disagree with him with lawsuits. You don't see
Alesis or Mackie hanging around here threatening people every time one of
their products or advertising claims gets insulted on the newsgroups. The
posts here just aren't *that* important. I would like these groups to
stay open to even the annoying posts. I think we can wade through both
sides of a story and draw our own conclusions without censoring those who
have differing opinions or express them in ways that aren't status quo.
We all seem to agree that Mr. Oram has made contributions to the
industry. Some disagree with the extent or value of the contributions.
This happens all the time. It's hard not to take it personally when you
care about your work and are trying to do the best you can as I imagine
Oram is. But when you open yourself to the public like he has, some
people are going to throw stones. If the business is doing well, state
your case and rebuttal but don't worry too much about colorful posts on
rec.audio.pro. There are better and more fruitful places to expend one's
energy.
Rick Knepper
Rick Knepper wrote:
>
> >
>
> Neve lives in Austin. He prefers the "Father of British BBQ" nowadays.
> --
> Rick Knepper"The Father of Austin BBQ cooked by a (expat) Brit"?
His cabrito is really good too...if you like that sort of thing! But the
best thing is that he's always making sure that I've got a beer in my
hand!
BTW, I'm still amazed that humans eat cabrito. <g>
hank wrote:
Uh oh...Rick, you're gonna hear from Lyle about this...
I think I remember that thread. I guess he's still wrong. <g>
Besides, it ain't about sauces - it's about how to eat meat. Anybody who knows anything about eating meat will tell ya that all it takes is passing the carcass across the flame a couple of times to sear the outside. If there's any pink on the inside, it's overdone. The only real condiment for meat is a spoon of salt.
Bon appetit (French for heart attack)
--
Rick Knepper
SteveHigdn
>BBQ is not seared, either. Slow cooked.
Yea verily. Smoked, even.
>Sauce is for the table. BBQ is dry rubs and basting liquid.
>Everything you're describing is grilling. And it sounds like you know how
>to grill a mean steak. But don't get delusions of grandeur...
Rick, I'm down with you on the steak concept. If the quality of the meat will
allow it, seared rare is a fine way to go.
Now i'm hungry.
Steve Higdon
SteveHigdn
Mixerman, I'm glad you're here.
Steve Higdon
mt...@my-deja.com
confer what is by any stretch of the imagination
a somewhat pretentious and controversial title on
anyone in the businesss, you did not contact me
directly as the person who employed Mr. Oram for
some 17 years. It is a matter of public record
that I founded Trident Audio Developments Ltd in
1972 and prior to that had been a recording
engineer at Trident Studios having recorded David
Bowie's first album A Space Oddity, three albums
with T-Rex, James Taylors first Album and was the
mixing engineer on the Beatles Hey Jude. It was
with this knowledge and background that Trident
Audio was founded. Mr. Oram was not employed by
the company until 1974, long after the A and B
ranges were designed and at no time did Mr. Oram
act as an officer of the company. He was only
ever employed as a consultant and as such had
absolutely no input whatsoever in terms of
product concept, systems design, or production.
The way we would work was that I would specify a
particular circuit that we needed designed and he
would come up with a design to my
specifications. It was me that chose the
frequencies, bandwidths, headroom etc. that gave
Trident it's particular 'British Eq.' sound, not
Mr. Oram. At no time did he ever put together a
complete system and on many occasions his designs
needed modifications in order to make them work
in a satisfactory method. This is not heresay,
speak for example to Peter Watts who now heads
the Mackie digital design team for confirmation
of this. Frankly I am getting sick and tired of
Mr. Oram's market posturing and misinformed
people such as yourself disseminating incorrect
information. I am proud of my achievements with
Trident from 1972 to 1988 and the products we
produced at that time. My company Malcolm Toft
Associates Limited (MTA) does it's best to
continue the Trident legacy and produce products
in the same traditition. We do not need to do
this by making extravagant claims for ourselves
or our products. Feel free to contact me if you
would like further information on the TRUE
history of Trident Audio.
Malcolm Toft
In article <7vdo67$1otc$1@newssvr04-
int.news.prodigy.com>,
"MARK E LIERLY" <BENSONA...@prodigy.net>
wrote:
> Mr. McQuilken,
>
> I do not appreciate your "stupid" comment. My
post was not intended as a
> joke.
>
> Prior to SoundTech launching a $500,000
advertising campaign, I did take the
> time to personally investigate and review all
the documentation and
> photographs that detailed Mr. Orams electronic
design history.
> Additionally, I reviewed letters of reference
from Mr. Orams previous
> consulting clients, including Malcolm Toft,
formerly of Trident, that spoke
> highly of his design expertise.
>
> Obviously, some may feel that my giving Mr.
Oram the moniker "Father of
> British EQ" was not deserved.
>
> However, after reviewing his body of work, I
feel there are few individuals
> in history who have done as much to bring the
"British Sound" to more end
> users, at affordable prices, than John Oram and
the companies he has worked
> for and on behalf of.
>
> No doubt, Mr. Oram is a flamboyant and colorful
individual, as many in our
> industry are.
> This is apparently a real problem for some
people. I have read repeated
> offensive and very personal attacks on Mr. Oram
in this newsgroup, I think
> it needs to stop.
>
> I would suggest to the attackers that before
they attempt to deride or sully
> Mr. Orams work and personal reputation, they
VERIFY the facts and history
> involved, FIRST HAND, as I have, and not just
depend on allegations, hearsay
> and conjecture.
>
> There are two sides to every
story.....especially those that come from
> disgruntled
> ex-employees and competitors.
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Lierly
>
> Mark McQuilken <ma...@fmraudio.com> wrote in
message
> news:381A29...@fmraudio.com...
> > MARK E LIERLY wrote:
>
> > I hope that you were saying it as a joke,
Mark! I'm sure you were,
> > 'cause nobody could be sincerely THAT
stupid...
> >
> > The Father of Austin EQ,
> > McQ
mt...@my-deja.com
Irwin Shur
Maybe now someone can address the question that's been burning in my
mind (well, not burning really, maybe just wonderment)--why would anyone
try to sell $50,000+ consoles through Sweetwater Sound???
Irwin Shur
mt...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> It's a pity that in taking such due diligence to
> confer what is by any stretch of the imagination
> a somewhat pretentious and controversial title on
> anyone in the businesss, you did not contact me
> directly as the person who employed Mr. Oram for
> some 17 years. It is a matter of public record
> that I founded Trident Audio Developments Ltd in
> 1972 and prior to that had been a recording
> engineer at Trident Studios having recorded David
> Bowie's first album A Space Oddity, three albums
> with T-Rex, James Taylors first Album and was the
Steve Jackson
That is exactly what I mean!!! Dr. Shockley is credited by many with the
"invention of the transistor." However, if you take a look at the patent, I believe
you will find his name absent. Only John Bardeen and Walter Brattain are listed, as
I remember. However, I believe he is listed as a corecipient for the Nobel prize
(he was their manager at Bell Labs). He was also very full of himself (and some
pretty racist philosophy) and loved to tell the world about it. It makes Bardeen's
modesty even more admirable, from my perspective.
Steve
Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Steve Jackson <s...@hpessj.fc.hp.com> wrote:
> >
> > Nick Holonyak, Jr. (inventor of the SCR, L.E.D., and semiconductor laser diode
> >and Bardeen's first Ph.D. student) was showing a bunch of the attendees some of
> >Bardeen's awards (Presidential Medal of Science, both Nobel Prize medallions,
> >Soviet Medal of Science, etc.), which were on display in a glass case. Bardeen
> >was just standing off to the side by himslf, seemingly not understanding why
> >everyone was making such a big deal. I later learned that this was typical of
> >him.
>
> Now, compare this with the behaviour of Dr. Shockley, who was on the
> same team.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Mixerman
anything. Imagine that!
Mixerman
Mixerman wrote in message <7vjfeo$ae7$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>
>>And right now the work of Mr. Tanner and crew is speaking to me. I'll
>>bet a Phoenix GTQ2 smokes anything from Oram whether we're talking off
>>the line or a damn endurance race. "She can dance a Cajun rhythm, jus'
>>like a Willys in fourwheel drive". The Phoenix leaves big streaks where
>>the rubber meets the road. I wonder, with the Oram, are there just
>>rubbers all over the road?
>>
>
>
>Watch out! You could get thued for that comment!
>
>The following methage wath brought to you with the uth of an Oram De-ether.
carpedonut
Bill Roberts wrote:
Well, Mr Oram, you have certainly guaranteed that I will never buy
> any of your products. I think you have guaranteed the same thing with
> a lot of readers of this group. Which happens to comprise a fairly
> good percentage of the pro audio market. Good work!
>
> -- Bill
Thank you for the proper use of the word "comprise". One of my pet peeves is the
misuse of comprise and consist, and I tend to be shocked when either is used
correctly.
In addition, I second your sentiments.
Sean Carberry
--
How's it going, Mr. Peterson?
"It's a dog eat dog world, Woody, and I'm wearing Milk Bone underwear."
Jay - Atlanta Digital
<BENSONA...@prodigy.net>, mt...@my-deja.com wrote:
<SNIPPED for brevity)
> Frankly I am getting sick and tired of Mr.
> Oram's market posturing and misinformed people such as yourself
> disseminating incorrect information. I am proud of my achievements
> with Trident from 1972 to 1988 and the products we produced at that
> time. My company Malcolm Toft Associates Limited (MTA) does it's best
> to continue the Trident legacy and produce products in the same
> traditition. We do not need to do this by making extravagant claims
> for ourselves or our products. Feel free to contact me if you would
> like further information on the TRUE history of Trident Audio.
>
> Malcolm Toft
Malcolm,
It's a pleasure to see you on the newsgroup. You are a gentleman and must
have the patience of a saint. We spoke on the phone many months ago about
some related subjects, and I wish to thank you again for taking the time.
It was a thouroughly enjoyable and informative conversation. Best wishes
on your current and future endeavours.
To be fair, I also had a conversation with John Oram at that time. It
seems that after one gets over the arrogant posture, he actually is a
rather interesting person to talk to. I still don't agree with everything
he says or does, but I appreciated the opportunity to hear his point of
view directly from the source, and to learn some audio history that I was
not aware of.
And while I'm at it, I guess I should mention that I had some email
correspondence ewith Barry Porter and spoke with some other people who
were close to Trident in the heyday during the same period several months
ago. I've been a big fan of Trident since I first became interested in
audio - even just the studio itself (Rush was a favorite band in my youth
and they did some work there, not to mention the fine projects Malcolm
mentioned in his post) and it has been wonderful to speak with all of the
people involved. There are a lot of claims that fly around from all sorts
of people on all sorts of subjects, and it's been nice to finally have
them sorted out (at least I think!). Thanks to all involved.
-Jay
Atlanta Digital
www.promastering.com
Rick Krizman
MARK E LIERLY wrote:
>
> However, after reviewing his body of work, I feel there are few individuals
> in history who have done as much to bring the "British Sound" to more end
> users, at affordable prices, than John Oram and the companies he has worked
> for and on behalf of.
>
Well then I guess you'd be the guy to ask. Perhaps you could tell us exactly
what the "British Sound" is and correct a possible misconception that it's just
meaningless marketing bullshit.
Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Mark Plancke
>And while I'm at it, I guess I should mention that I had some email
>correspondence ewith Barry Porter and spoke with some other people who
>were close to Trident in the heyday during the same period several months
>ago.
With all this talk about EQ's recently I'm curious whether anyone
built Barry's NET EQ from the design on his website? If so, how
does it sound? Did you run into any problems finding parts?
Waiting in Windsor... with a mental picture of the
grandfather of BEQ in my mind. <G>
Mark Plancke
Right now the recording game is crawling with wannabees. Lots of
profiteering can be done at their expense, by making flimsy crap and
pitching it as "just as good as, or a suitable alternative to" something
that's really good and has stood the test of time. - Steve Albini
SOUNDTECH RECORDING STUDIOS
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
http://SoundTechRecording.com
Peter Bruce Wilder
in glorious color, it's 17" x 22" produced on a big HP plotter normally used
for mapping! Looks grand.
warm regards,
- Peter
Peter Bruce Wilder
dba Ergo Communications
pbwi...@together.net
MARK E LIERLY
Thank you very much for your post to this newsgroup.
I do sincerely appreciate the opportunity to respond to you, a person
directly involved in this apparently very controversial topic, point by
point.
> It's a pity that in taking such due diligence to confer what is by any
> stretch of the imagination a somewhat pretentious and controversial title
on
> anyone in the businesss,
I knew that the marketing campaign would create controversy, because there
will always be individuals who feel they made greater, or at least equally
important, contributions to the art. As far as being pretentious, I have
never heard of, nor been shown, any convincing evidence, that Mr. Oram's
claimed design history is false or mis-leading.
>you did not contact me directly as the person who
> employed Mr. Oram for some 17 years.
I didn't feel I needed to. I read a document entitled "Recording Console
Project" which was Copyrighted on 4/12/91 by you, Malcolm Toft, which said
in
spirit that,
John Oram teamed up with you at Trident and was responsible for the
innovative design techniques and unique sound quality that made Trident
mixers famous world-wide. They were designed by listening as well as using
test and measurement gear and Mr. Oram fit well into this process since he
has a strong musical
background.
>It is a matter of public record that
> I founded Trident Audio Developments Ltd in 1972 and prior to that had
been
> a recording engineer at Trident Studios having recorded David Bowie's
first
> album A Space Oddity, three albums with T-Rex, James Taylors first Album
and
> was the mixing engineer on the Beatles Hey Jude. It was with this
> knowledge and background that Trident Audio was founded.
Very nice indeed, I don't believe anyone here on the newsgroup has ever
questioned your historical involvement with Trident.
Some non-Oram related questions please, Mr. Toft:
You mentioned being the mixing engineer on Hey Jude. I have always been
under the impression that this was recorded at Olympic Studios in London
over a 4 day period from July 29 through August 1st. Did you work there
too?
Also were you the mixing engineer on the David Bowie, T-Rex and James Taylor
albums you mentioned in the above paragraph?
>Mr. Oram was not
> employed by the company until 1974, long after the A and B ranges were
> designed
Employed? I'm sure you meant to say "Mr. Orams SERVICES were not employed by
the company..."
I am not aware that Mr. Oram has ever claimed to have designed the A and B
range products, in person or in print.
Further, as printed in a past interview published in PRO SOUND NEWS, Mr.
Oram was, and always has been, very quick to credit your design contribution
to the final product.
Mr. Oram claims to have done original electronic design work on the CB9066
Parametric EQ, Fleximix, TSM, Series 80 , etc...
I have reviewed Mr. Orams contemporaneous engineering/laboratory notes for
these products, copies of which I am sure you have seen. Are these claims
not accurate?
>and at no time did Mr. Oram act as an officer of the company.
Mr. Toft, although Mr. Oram was not an official employee of Trident, did you
not personally refer to him, and introduce him to others outside the company
as your "Chief of Design"?
>He
> was only ever employed as a consultant and as such had absolutely no input
> whatsoever in terms of product concept, systems design, or production.
The
> way we would work was that I would specify a particular circuit that we
> needed designed and he would come up with a design to my specifications.
Mr. Oram never claimed to have been an employee of Trident, and in fact
proudly speaks of his independent consultant status. During all my Trident
related conversations, he always credited you, Mr. Toft, with specifying the
systems design and feature set that was the Trident mixer.
> It was me that chose the frequencies, bandwidths, headroom etc. that gave
> Trident it's particular 'British Eq.' sound, not Mr. Oram.
With due respect Mr. Toft, I must disagree with you on this point .
What most determines the sound character of an audio mixer?
I feel the design of the internal circuit topology has much more to do with
the sound of a mixer than the overall systems design specification. Two
different brands of mixers
that feature similar frequency selection criteria on the front panel,
bandwidth and headroom specifications can sound VERY different depending on
the circuit design methods and components used.
>At no time did
> he ever put together a complete system
I don't recall Mr. Oram ever claiming to have designed the whole system.
In fact, that is the reason SoundTech chose the British EQ moniker, because
that is what he was most noted for, his EQ circuit designs.
>and on many occasions his designs
> needed modifications in order to make them work in a satisfactory method.
Mr. Toft, if the designs were not satisfactory, why did you keep Mr. Oram on
as a consultant for 17 years???
I know many engineer's circuit designs have to be modified to work within a
particular system, especially if the engineer was not responsible for
designing the entire system, as you have described above. And to be fair Mr.
Toft, very few electronic design
engineers get it perfect the first time around.
> This is not heresay, speak for example to Peter Watts who now heads the
> Mackie digital design team for confirmation of this. Frankly I am
getting
> sick and tired of Mr. Oram's market posturing and misinformed people such
as
> yourself disseminating incorrect information.
I am very sorry to hear that Mr. Orams marketing campaign is making you ill
and weary, but please Mr. Toft, explain to me how I have been misinformed.
I took the thoughtful statements written in your copyrighted "Recording
Console Project" document to be absolutly truthful and accurate.
Have I been the victim of an elaborate fraud?
If so, I wish to immediately correct and apologize for any erroneous
information I have posted, printed or spoken of. Please advise immediately!
>I am proud of my
> achievements with Trident from 1972 to 1988 and the products we produced
at
> that time. My company Malcolm Toft Associates Limited (MTA) does it's
best
> to continue the Trident legacy and produce products in the same
traditition.
You should be VERY proud, Trident made some great sounding product that
helped define the "British Sound" which many audio professionals (including
myself) still love to this day!
I don't know much about your current MTA product, except that apparently in
keeping with the above mentioned Trident "legacy" and "tradition", John Oram
was involved in MTA with you, again according to what I read in your
"Recording Console Project" document.
> We do not need to do this by making extravagant claims for ourselves or
our
> products.
Well, I don't see anything extravagant about Mr. Orams claims of design
pedigree, just a somewhat contentious marketing campaign that has ruffled
some competitors feathers.
>Feel free to contact me if you would like further information on
> the TRUE history of Trident Audio.
> Malcolm Toft
Mr. Toft, in keeping with your desire to convey the TRUE history of Trident
Audio, would you grant me permission to post the word-for-word portions of
your copyrighted document entitled "Recording Console Project" that pertain
to Mr. John Orams past involvement with Trident Audio on the rec.audio.pro
newsgroup?
I am not sure I really need your permission to post the document under these
circumstances, but I am being a gentleman and asking anyway.
I look forward very much to your reply.
Sincerely,
Mark Lierly
hank alrich
> Well, that seems pretty clear...
>
> Maybe now someone can address the question that's been burning in my
> mind (well, not burning really, maybe just wonderment)--why would anyone
> try to sell $50,000+ consoles through Sweetwater Sound???
To move 'em at an appropriately steep discount?
Bill Roberts
Irwin Shur wrote:
>
> Well, that seems pretty clear...
>
> Maybe now someone can address the question that's been burning in my
> mind (well, not burning really, maybe just wonderment)--why would anyone
> try to sell $50,000+ consoles through Sweetwater Sound???
Is Sweetwater even still carrying Oram? Thought
they dumped that line, or vice versa.
?
Not that anyone in his right mind would buy from
Sweetwater unless it was a KILLER deal and the
item was personally inspected and picked up in
person...
-- Bill
Jim @Analog Bros.
Hey Peter,
Any chance you can make copies of the large plot available? I am
planning on building the eq circuit this winter.
Regards, Jim
www.analogbros.com
>warm regards,
>- Peter
>Mark Plancke wrote:
--Jim @Analog Bros.
Custom Amplification
New Hope, PA
freak...@my-deja.com
model of a "Really Nice EQ" and hence can make the claim "Father of
Austin EQ"?
> > The moniker was subsequently used by SoundTech in an advertising
campaign to
> > promote a line of mixers Mr. Oram designed.
> > Mark Lierly
> >
>
> I hope that you were saying it as a joke, Mark! I'm sure you were,
> 'cause nobody could be sincerely THAT stupid...
>
> The Father of Austin EQ,
> McQ
>
> __
> Mark McQuilken
> FMR Audio
> www.fmraudio.com
> (800)343-9976 - US Only
> (512)280-6557 Voice
> (512)280-8627 Fax
>