is cheap plywood suitable?
William R. Watt
the newsgroup from time to time. This is one of them. :)
I get some criticism for using cheap plywood. My philosophy is
that whatever meets the owner's requirements is fine. The standard
I use is the birchbark canoe which was common in this area.
Birchbark canoes are still being made. People pay a lot of money
for them as traditional craft. They are made of birchbark, split
spruce root, balsam gum, and split white cedar, all of which,
except for the cedar, are terrible boat building materials.
I don't know how long it took to make a birchbark canoe with stone
and bone tools, but with iron age hand tools it takes two skilled
people two weeks full time to make one, as near as I can figure
from what I've read and from the one video I've seen. The method
was worked out centuries ago to minimize effort and duration.
I don't know how long the small hunting and fishing canoes last
but the canoes used in the fur trade, according to Eric Morse who
researched the fur trade and fur trade routes from original
journals, lasted one season. When used as work boats birchbark
canoes required frequent repair.
Birchbark canoes were used to transport native families and all
their possesssions hundreds of miles between summer and winter
hunting grounds. They were used on large bodies of water such as
the Great Lakes and along the east coast. When Europeans set up
trading posts on Hudson's Bay natives spent all summer travelling
from the foothills of the Rockies to the shores of the Bay to
acquire kettles, knives, and axes, and to avoid paying native
middle men. They had to travel fast to get back home before the
rivers froze, and sometimes they didn't. Imagine travelling half a
year in a canoe to get a few iron blades and copper cooking vessels.
Birchbark canoes were, and continue to be, as safe as the people
using them.
The cheap underlayment plywood I use is better than birchbark. My
boats are faster and cheaper to build, require less maintenance,
and last longer. Like any modern canoe tripper I carry duct tape,
another terrible boat building material. Safety depends entirely
on how the boat is used. Birchbark boats, plywood boats, and just
about any wooden boat I can think of gradually wears out, becomes
watterlogged, leaks, requires more and more bailing, and is
eventually abandoned. They don't suddenly brake up and sink during
a Sunday outing unless they are run into something solid by an
ignorant, foolish, careless, or drunken, operator.
A boat should be made out of whatever materials are suited to its
intended use. I find cheap plywood is suitable material for my boats.
--
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P.C.
"William R. Watt" <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> skrev i en meddelelse
news:b7pgkq$v0$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
Exactly , ---- and that's not my point my point ,is that you get what you pay.
True the joy is there just putting things together and se the plans realy
reflect somthing 3D but then emagine you pay a bit more or even a bit less m and
get somthing 10 times as nice to know, even not even finished.
That the exact right panels, ----- if cromeplated gold to expensive, then rush
small cubed honeycomb cells in material made from pressed paper , or as I
suggest with this sort of amature boatbuilding, that the result as easy build,
just aswell could yield somthing with a charecter and solid quality by getting
what you pay.
True that if you get low quality it's not worth paying for, but isn't this the
bargain ; that you make the right investments and get the suspected gain
; -------- another reson not to invest in Pyramides ;))
The fibers that proberly produce the sheets could be banana fibers or
gen-manipulated fibers these day's they can make sheet from anything , still
when woods can compleatly rot away like some species can in a year, there is no
reson advising them for handrailes. Investing is from my point of view better,
if done with future and modern technologies and the Ply industrie have a lot to
learn about Digital but so di steel sheet industrie and a lot of other
industries , -------- They _know_ how bad some of the products is, maby somone
shuld ask some garentie from the manufactores ;))
Anyway to prove my idear about quality please check this link ;
http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2498.html
P.C.
Backyard Renegade
> What's suitable for boatbuilding material comes up as a topic in
> the newsgroup from time to time. This is one of them. :)
>
>
> A boat should be made out of whatever materials are suited to its
> intended use. I find cheap plywood is suitable material for my boats.
Amen...
Jim Conlin
user and the nature of the waters where the boat is to be used.
If the user can walk ON or the water, or the water is shallow enough to walk IN, and he's willing to swear
same to the builder, then standards can be relaxed. If not, then lauan doorskins should stay in the shop.
Bill Martin
So the question is how long do you want your boats to last? If one season is
enough then use birch bark by all means. If you want many years service,
then get marine plywood or some such. The cheap underlayment plywood will
provide some service life in between.
> ...just about any wooden boat I can think of gradually wears out...
Yes and no. I fell through the lazarette cover of a sail boat I had because
the plywood beneath the teak decking was not marine and it rotted internally.
It looked fine until it suddenly failed when I stepped on it. I was also
amazed at how the stainless steel screws into that plywood were also corroded
away to nothing since they were sitting immersed in wet plywood for years. I
could snap them off with my finger. If they were holding a hull together
they would have failed under stress like a zipper - the first one goes and
puts extra stress on the second which fails and so forth.
> A boat should be made out of whatever materials are suited to its
> intended use. I find cheap plywood is suitable material for my boats.
Amen. Be happy!
Bill
Scott Downey
building boats.
"William R. Watt" <ag...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:b7pgkq$v0$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
Rav
superior in resisting rot than that of equivalent Exterior ply. Wouldn't
sodden fir Marine ply rot just as readily as fir exterior? Sounds like more
of a problem with ventilation or waterproofing than choice of ply, but I
don't know all the details.
Anyway, cheap ply has his place--in my experience on the cheap boats, in the
cheap barn, behind the cheap housetrailer, of a cheapskate--that's me and
I'm plenty happy with that.
Rav
"Bill Martin" <wy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.190a475c5...@news.earthlink.net...
William R. Watt
> I didn't know that there was anything in Marine Plywood which made it more
> superior in resisting rot than that of equivalent Exterior ply. Wouldn't
> sodden fir Marine ply rot just as readily as fir exterior? Sounds like more
> of a problem with ventilation or waterproofing than choice of ply, but I
> don't know all the details.
yes, but the rot usually starts in the voids, or so I've read.
marine ply is supposed to be free of voids.
DonB
Yes, cheap ply is suitable, just encapsulate it in expensive epoxy and
glass.
Better still, buy marine ply and paint it.
DonB
Lew Hodgett
Just curious. What do you define as expensive?
--
Lew
S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures
Backyard Renegade
> Perhaps using materials which are not the best lets boatbuilders keep on
> building boats.
>
May be for Bayliner and many of the other mass produced boats... but
to us backyard renegades, cheap plywood only serves to allow those who
can't afford floating clorox bottles to enjoy boats. Most amateurs
like myself have never made any money building boats we just want to
do it and we want out boats to last just as much as anyone else. You
may not understand until someday when you have wet a hull of your own
hand...
Because of the photos on my website most folks think of me as a rather
ill manered artist and think I only deal with high end boats made of
superior materials... but if you dig deep (and not to far) you will
see that I embrace the idea of using cheap plywood if that is the only
way you can have a boat. I should note however that I am getting away
from that mostly because it is much easier to build with the better
materials from many points of view...
Scotty from SmallBoats.com
William R. Watt
you can paint marine ply to make it look just like the cheap stuff?
Bill Martin
> superior in resisting rot than that of equivalent Exterior ply. Wouldn't
> sodden fir Marine ply rot just as readily as fir exterior? Sounds like more
> of a problem with ventilation or waterproofing than choice of ply, but I
> don't know all the details.
>
> Anyway, cheap ply has his place--in my experience on the cheap boats, in the
> cheap barn, behind the cheap housetrailer, of a cheapskate--that's me and
> I'm plenty happy with that.
My understanding is that marine plywood is better because:
1) It's stronger. No internal voids. Better quality wood used. The way
it's pieced together has more care taken in how the layers overlap.
2) It lasts longer. The adhesive used is better optimized for the wet
environment and seems to fill the gaps better, preventing moisture from
entering the wood from the face although it can still wick up from the end
cuts.
Here's a web link about it which I found quickly. Books are written about
the properties of various woods though so there are probably better
references out there somewhere:
http://www.buckwoodcraft.com/details_and_advice.htm#BS%201088
Bill
DonB
Better is not the same.
But you can spend heaps of money and time applying health-threatening
materials, to make cheap ply last.
You can also buy good marine ply, apply paint only (apart from taped
chines), and have a longlasting, lightweight product.
DonB
Backyard Renegade
> :)
> Better is not the same.
> But you can spend heaps of money and time applying health-threatening
> materials, to make cheap ply last.
> You can also buy good marine ply, apply paint only (apart from taped
> chines), and have a longlasting, lightweight product.
> DonB
>
>
fiberglass and epoxy, but then you use it when it suits your needs?
Seems a little funny to me. BTW, there is a third option you have
failed to note, you can use good exterior ply, paint it right, no
encapsulation with "health threatening materials" and have a
longlasting, lightweight product too...
Scotty from SmallBoats.com
P.C.
"Backyard Renegade" <skcus...@eudoramail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:144b721f.03042...@posting.google.com...
> oi...@paradise.net.nz (DonB) wrote in message
news:<3eacee62...@news.paradise.net.nz>...
> BTW, there is a third option you have
> failed to note, you can use good exterior ply, paint it right, no
> encapsulation with "health threatening materials" and have a
> longlasting, lightweight product too...
> Scotty from SmallBoats.com
Now many years ago I knew a guy who proberly was the most skilled craftman
working with polyester, epoxies , and these sorts of laminate. Now this guy
could produce the most increadible and worked with laminate in many different
applications, he had a huge workshop even he most often had just one hired hand
, he simply was high-speed and didn't miss a day without a sniff of styrene. Now
this guy had a sad end, as his wive complained he acturly was sweating acetone
but one night he suffered a serious brain dameage while the styrene and acetone
made his brain short circut while this stuff acturly wash out the isolating fat
between the nerve cells ; no he never cared about fresh air in the workshop and
allway's worked right above the polyester.
Anyway I once asked him about a glasfiber boat I had, where I was about to place
tree ply walls around and in front the small engine ----------- now I don't
remember the intire lesson, but he started asking why the hell I used Plywood
that I know would start taking up moisture nomatter what , and then this top
profesional ( except towerds his own health ) showed me bits and pieces, forms
and ready made high preasure ballones and advanced sub parts ,pointing to each
place where I would have placed a piece of ply but where he placed a piece of
ready made glasfiber sheet , that _never_ would caurse any trouble , --------
that would be in same material as the resin and laminate, that would never
de-laminate or caurse the trouble he could prove, would be in the end using a
ply where a profesional would prefere a not-ply piece as filler.
Now I know everyone do this, but it is wrong and doing it better, mean replacing
the ply with somthing better , somthing compleatly water proven and somthing
that go in one with the laminate you add.
Well this guy was a profesional, and justifying using cheap ply just becaurse
it's covered with resin and glasfiber is just a bad exchouse for chosing the
wrong combination as if a better sheet was chosen the thing will never de
composite.
Yes I know, ------- I did the same, but after listening to a master I knew that
this was not the best option.
P.C.
DonB
I use epoxy when it suits my needs of course! As I say, for chines. I
once built a multichine lightweight racing yacht, which leaked, until
I glass taped the chines. That just seems plain sensible to me. But it
does not mean that I would use epoxy and glass to cover the hull when
I don't need to, for health and cost reasons.
It still seems silly to me to turn cheap ply into expensive ply, by
coating it with epoxy.
Use the best ply in the first place.
You have a different view.
DonB
On 28 Apr 2003 06:33:04 -0700, skcus...@eudoramail.com (Backyard
DonB
properly painted as you suggest. It will rot eventually. Rain water
will penetrate paint over time, and you need best quality timber
underneath.
Lew Hodgett
> > Yes, cheap ply is suitable, just encapsulate it in expensive epoxy and
> > glass.
> > Better still, buy marine ply and paint it.
I asked:
> Just curious. What do you define as expensive?
Interesting how my question has been avoided.
William Fausold
:
Enjoy Finger Lakes Wine. The Fausolds
href="http://community.webtv.net/Senlake/doc
Think Spring
William R. Watt
> "DonB" wrote:
>
>> > Yes, cheap ply is suitable, just encapsulate it in expensive epoxy and
>> > glass.
>> > Better still, buy marine ply and paint it.
>
> I asked:
>
>> Just curious. What do you define as expensive?
>
> Interesting how my question has been avoided.
there's a few ways of computing cost, from life cycle costs to cost per
mile or hour of use or hour of use per person, and so on. I like hour of
use per person which I why I can't justify more than 3 small boats at a
time. Anything which raises the cost above the minimum would be "expensive"
which is probably abusing the word.
BTW it might not be cost effective to buy cheap plywood and spend money
coating it with epoxy and fibreglass if you can find marine plywood at the
same cost. The coated plywood would not likely be as long lasting as good
marine plywood. The marine plywood is made from tropical hardwoods which
are tough and dimensionally stable. Fir plywood exapands and contracts a
lot with changes in temperature and humidity, especially direct sunlight,
and gets a lot of hairline cracks in the plywood and whaterver paint is
on it. Its called "checking". I've heard fir is okay for small boats
stored in a garage when not in use. Cheap underlayment is okay for small
boats kept in a garage too. TF Jones wrote that he had one for 9 years and
finally cut it up because he was tired of it and wanted to try something
else.
there's a whole range of cost/benefit ratios, or return on investment
rates, for boats depending on the mix of materials and uses. there's not a
lot of objective data for comparison. whatever meets the requirement at
least cost, depending on how you define cost, would be the most suitable
mix of materials.
a lot of boat owning is emotional so its difficult to define some people's
requirements. some don't know until they see the boat and figure it looks
good on them or gives them some kind of edge. but once they decide on the
requirement it can be met at least cost.
Ron Magen
'flow out' of oil based paints. Works quite well, too. [FloTrol for
water-based paints] Supposed it can also be used to 'improve' sun-damaged
gel-coat. {something like ArmorAll on vinyl} or rubber.
I used 'striping tape' to do my boot top; might be worth a try . . .
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
"William Fausold" <Sen...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1535-3EA...@storefull-2116.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Has anybody had any experience with Penetrol to finish a fiberglass boot
> stripe? my Penn Yan is starting its 37th summer and the boot stripe is
> faded. Thanks.
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Lew Hodgett
> there's a few ways of computing cost, from life cycle costs to cost per
> mile or hour of use or hour of use per person, and so on. I like hour of
> use per person which I why I can't justify more than 3 small boats at a
> time.
<snip>
What a bunch of IBS, AKA: Intellectual Bull Shit.
It was a pretty straight forward question.
A straight forward answer will suffice.
Forget the IBS.
I've had masters unsuccessfully try to snow me with IBS, you definitely
don't qualify.
JT
> "William Fausold"
> > Has anybody had any experience with Penetrol to finish a fiberglass boot
> > stripe? my Penn Yan is starting its 37th summer and the boot stripe is
> > faded. Thanks.
Penetrol can be applied to faded gelcoat and it will provide immediate, if
shortlived satisfaction!
If you are not up to repainting the boot stripe, it may be worthwhile - Just
wipe on the Penetrol, allow it to soak in. Maybe do it again, then dry -
Mask when doing it unless you plan on doing the whole hull! Once it is dry,
the finish should look a lot better. Remove the masking tape and paste wax
over the Penetrol when you do the hull. This usually lasts for about 1/2 a
season. People have been known to do this when selling their boats :)
If water line is near the water (almost submerged), be careful about
painting - most finishes will blister even if only periodically submerged.
Good Luck
PS: Be careful about using strong detergents when cleaning the deck - they
remove the Penetrol, which is essentially just an oil
Backyard Renegade
> I forgot to add.....I would never trust poorer grade exterior ply
> properly painted as you suggest. It will rot eventually. Rain water
> will penetrate paint over time, and you need best quality timber
> underneath.
> DonB
> On 28 Apr 2003 06:33:04 -0700, skcus...@eudoramail.com (Backyard
> Renegade) wrote:
>
> >oi...@paradise.net.nz (DonB) wrote in message news:<3eacee62...@news.paradise.net.nz>...
> >> :)
> >> Better is not the same.
> >> But you can spend heaps of money and time applying health-threatening
> >> materials, to make cheap ply last.
> >> You can also buy good marine ply, apply paint only (apart from taped
> >> chines), and have a longlasting, lightweight product.
> >> DonB
> >>
> >>
Of course you are right, and I almost exclusivly use the good material
now... But I still do have a sweet spot for my first few boats, made
of the cheap stuff, most of which are still in use... I will note that
the good material is easier to use, cheaper in the long run, lasts
longer, and did I mention... easier to build with .... But I still
can't knock down the guy who just wants to build a 50 dollar boat for
his pond... He just has to know that there will come a time, sooner
rather than later that he will have to burn it...
Scotty
DonB
Expensive? I suppose I must mean that cheap ply plus the cost of glass
and epoxy, plus the cost of more filler, sanding and time, is not far
short of the cost of Marine Ply.
DonB
Gordon Couger
If your building a plywood boat marine plywood is a better material. But
many boats have been built with cheap ply that last well if they are
maintained well and not build so moisture is trapped in the plywood.
If you are building a fiberglass boat and using plywood for the core I doubt
it makes much difference. Both are equaly good or bad in regard that they
will both rot when water is trapped in them.
Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger
Don Dando
plywood to use. I've built several boats using underlayment, but they are
the rarely used, put 'em in play with them' take them home and store them
type. I won't use underlayment on a 70-80 mph race boat nor on a boat to be
used in rough water.
On boats I built or restored that will remain in the water all summer, I use
the best grade of marine plywood I can find. (Especially if it is a
customers boat. A customer may flinch about cost but they can never
complain about poor quality materials being used).
Don Dando
"Gordon Couger" <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
news:3eaf3215$1_1@newsfeed...
Richard Mundy
If you are really into cheap materials how about Cardboard.
A girl I knew one made the most beautifull galleon out of cardboard
boxes and brown paper tape. She painted it very thoroughly and entered
it in the college home made boat race and won.
The boat cost nothing, took her a couple of mornings work and survived
for several susequent outings.
Mind you when it did fail it was quick and dramatic and she ended up
swimming .
Dick
PS on the original subject, you get what you pay for,and if you are
going to spend many hours building a good boat, use good materials. If
you just want to get afloat fast then use ---- well, cardboard ! :-)
The message <Zahra.46159$4P1.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
from "Lew Hodgett" <lewho...@earthlink.net> contains these words:
Lloyd Sumpter
> What's suitable for boatbuilding material comes up as a topic in
> the newsgroup from time to time. This is one of them. :)
>
> I get some criticism for using cheap plywood. My philosophy is
> that whatever meets the owner's requirements is fine.
The Gov't has taken away one of my Joys: building "disposable" boats.
(The Can. Gov't now requires all sorts of stickes, approvals, etc. on ANY
boat.)
Get a couple of sheets of cheap plywood and some scrap 1x2. Slap
together a boat in an afternoon. Go sailing/rowing/fishing/messing around
(wearing a lifejacket!). Chop up boat and put in fireplace.
Great fun, and you learn a LOT about how to (and how NOT to) build
boats.
dickmundy
The government has had no impact on the UK home builder providing he
does not want to sell the boat.
Even the then there are all sorts of exclusions, so get out the glue gun
and the cardboard and have fun!
PS Be careful where you use it as having Air Sea rescue out to boats
that fall apart or dissolve is not only embaaarrasing but bloody
dangerous!
Dick
The message <vbctcbt...@corp.supernews.com>
from "Lloyd Sumpter" <lsum...@dccnet.com> contains these words:
Old Nick
wrote something
......and in reply I say!:
>PS Be careful where you use it as having Air Sea rescue out to boats
>that fall apart or dissolve is not only embaaarrasing but bloody
>dangerous!
....man beaten to death by Air Sea rescue op in a fit of rage!...
Fundamental rule.The means ALWAYS becomes the end.
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email
!!
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