Treblinka - victims in a mass grave - but why thay are not naked ?
us...@domain.invalid
undress, then they were forced to the gas chambers (18-20 jews on 1
square meter, it means 1 jew on 20cm x 25cm), gassed and they poor
bodies were dragged into the ditches.
hmm:
http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_treblinka/mass_grave.htm
but why they are then dressed again ?
NEFUATS NEHOH
<us...@domain.invalid> a écrit dans le message news:
3f06c4e9$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
Morghus
Sharp eye, User. The caption of that photograph is a typical
Holocaust hoax. It's pretty obvious the condition of the bodies do
not match the stories of Treblinka. We can't tell how they died, but
we can be pretty sure they weren't gassed. Moreover, the hole was dug
with heavy earth moving equipment, probably a crane and bucket.
Notice how the dirt is piled up in one large pile in the background;
that could only have been done with heavy machinery.
What's more, we know the picture was not taken at Treblinka. Ground
penetrating radar studies by an Australian team confirmed that there
are no graves at Treblinka. The Australians covered the entire camp
and surrounding area with a special radar machine that can detect soil
disturbances down to about 30 feet. The result: nothing--no bodies, no
graves, no soil disturbances for hundreds of years. The hole shown in
that photograph created such soil disturbance that it would be
detectable to the naked eye even after sixty years and most assuredly
would have shown up on the radar screen.
The whole thing is just another fraudulent claim by the Caustians.
They are forced to resort to such shenanigans--there is no real
evidence to support any of the preposterous Holocaust tales.
us...@domain.invalid
Did the australian team post something about their research on the
Internet ?
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be us...@domain.invalid wrote
in message <3f071fef$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>:
>Morghus wrote:
>> us...@domain.invalid wrote in message news:<3f06c4e9$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>...
>>
>>>According to "holocaust" history the victims in Treblinka were forced to
>>>undress, then they were forced to the gas chambers (18-20 jews on 1
>>>square meter, it means 1 jew on 20cm x 25cm), gassed and they poor
>>>bodies were dragged into the ditches.
>>>
>>>hmm:
>>>
>>>http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_treblinka/mass_grave.htm
>>>
>>>but why they are then dressed again ?
I see nothing in that photograph which is recognizably clothing.
>> Sharp eye, User. The caption of that photograph is a typical
>> Holocaust hoax. It's pretty obvious the condition of the bodies do
>> not match the stories of Treblinka. We can't tell how they died, but
>> we can be pretty sure they weren't gassed.
Typical "revisionist scholarship:" We don't know, but it can't be how
historical fact says it was...
>> Moreover, the hole was dug
>> with heavy earth moving equipment, probably a crane and bucket.
>> Notice how the dirt is piled up in one large pile in the background;
>> that could only have been done with heavy machinery.
Which means what, even if true?
>> What's more, we know the picture was not taken at Treblinka.
We know no such thing.
>> Ground
>> penetrating radar studies by an Australian team confirmed that there
>> are no graves at Treblinka.
morghus has been invited for years to produce this study, and has run
from doing so every single time.
Because even according to the snippet zie likes to quote, this team
found no indication of any camp whatsoever.
>> The Australians covered the entire camp
>> and surrounding area with a special radar machine that can detect soil
>> disturbances down to about 30 feet. The result: nothing--no bodies, no
>> graves, no soil disturbances for hundreds of years. The hole shown in
>> that photograph created such soil disturbance that it would be
>> detectable to the naked eye even after sixty years and most assuredly
>> would have shown up on the radar screen.
Assuming that the study was done, and done correctly, neither of which
morghus can prove.
>> The whole thing is just another fraudulent claim by the Caustians.
>> They are forced to resort to such shenanigans--there is no real
>> evidence to support any of the preposterous Holocaust tales.
>Did the australian team post something about their research on the
>Internet ?
Nope -- nothing at all. Just a summary, which it taken a face value,
indicates that there was never a camp of any description on that site.
That's why morghus will never provide more documentation on it that
zie already has.
Morghus
They sure did. If you can read German, go to the website at
http://www.vho.org/VffG/2000/1/Krege62-64.html
If you can't read German, just run a Google search and write
"Krege" and "Treblinka" in the box. Google will find the site and
translate it for you. Richard Krege was the leader of the Australian
team that performed the radar study.
Juergen Graf also wrote about it. You'll find his version in
English at
http://www.ety.com/tell/books/jglife/09.htm
I'm sure there are many other places discussing it. It's pretty
powerful stuff. The results totally refute all those wild and hairy
tales of mass murder at Treblinka. Treblinka was nothing but a small
transit camp--a short stopover for Jews being transferred to the East.
John Morris
Hash: SHA1
In <3f06c4e9$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on
I guess they didn't all get undressed. But perhaps you think the
fact theat they are wearing clothes means they are only pretending to
be dead.
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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NEFUATS NEHOH
"Roger" <roger@.> a écrit dans le message news:
d0eb8f111b05b38e...@free.teranews.com...
> In one age, called the Second Age by some,
> (an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
> someone claiming to be us...@domain.invalid wrote
> in message <3f071fef$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>:
>
> >Morghus wrote:
>
> >> us...@domain.invalid wrote in message
news:<3f06c4e9$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>...
> >>
> >>>According to "holocaust" history the victims in Treblinka were forced
to
> >>>undress, then they were forced to the gas chambers (18-20 jews on 1
> >>>square meter, it means 1 jew on 20cm x 25cm), gassed and they poor
> >>>bodies were dragged into the ditches.
> >>>
> >>>hmm:
> >>>
> >>>http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_treblinka/mass_grave.htm
> >>>
> >>>but why they are then dressed again ?
>
> I see nothing in that photograph which is recognizably clothing.
>
> >> Sharp eye, User. The caption of that photograph is a typical
> >> Holocaust hoax. It's pretty obvious the condition of the bodies do
> >> not match the stories of Treblinka. We can't tell how they died, but
> >> we can be pretty sure they weren't gassed.
>
> Typical "revisionist scholarship:" We don't know, but it can't be how
> historical fact says it was...
"Faith in USSR political police"
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
in message <3f075624$0$5415$626a...@news.free.fr>:
>> >Morghus wrote:
No, in historical fact, as documented by generations of historians of
various nationalities and faiths.
<snip what our latest denier can't deal with anyway>
John Morris
Hash: SHA1
In <3f071fef$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on
Sun, 06 Jul 2003 02:59:12 +0800, us...@domain.invalid wrote:
> Morghus wrote:
> > us...@domain.invalid wrote in message
> > news:<3f06c4e9$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>...
> >>According to "holocaust" history the victims in Treblinka were
> >>forced to undress, then they were forced to the gas chambers
> >>(18-20 jews on 1 square meter, it means 1 jew on 20cm x 25cm),
> >>gassed and they poor bodies were dragged into the ditches.
> >>hmm:
> >>http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_treblinka/mass_grave.htm
> >>but why they are then dressed again ?
> > Sharp eye, User. The caption of that photograph is a typical
> > Holocaust hoax. It's pretty obvious the condition of the bodies
> > do not match the stories of Treblinka. We can't tell how they
> > died, but we can be pretty sure they weren't gassed. Moreover,
> > the hole was dug with heavy earth moving equipment, probably a
> > crane and bucket. Notice how the dirt is piled up in one large
> > pile in the background; that could only have been done with heavy
> > machinery.
Except that the photograph comes from Kurt Franz's photo album. But
the only way we know that is because the crafty Jews took over the
entire German court system after the war and made him say it.
That is, if you believe an idiot like Morghus.
> > What's more, we know the picture was not taken at Treblinka.
> > Ground penetrating radar studies by an Australian team confirmed
> > that there are no graves at Treblinka. The Australians covered
> > the entire camp and surrounding area with a special radar machine
> > that can detect soil disturbances down to about 30 feet. The
> > result: nothing--no bodies, no graves, no soil disturbances for
> > hundreds of years.
Oh, don't stop there. They found no single graves, no construction
rubble, no evidence of any buildings of any kind, no burried rubbish,
no hint that human beings had ever set foot on the ground at any time
in history. In short, the Magic Radar Machine couldn't find a camp
at Treblinka.
> > The hole shown in
> > that photograph created such soil disturbance that it would be
> > detectable to the naked eye even after sixty years and most
> > assuredly would have shown up on the radar screen.
> > The whole thing is just another fraudulent claim by the
> > Caustians. They are forced to resort to such shenanigans--there
> > is no real evidence to support any of the preposterous Holocaust
> > tales.
> Did the australian team post something about their research on the
> Internet ?
Yes, and it was incredibly funny since the so-called electrical
engineer Richard Krege found no trace of any camp whatsoever at
Treblinka and sort of forgot that he was investigating a camp whose
existence wasn't in dispute.
Morghus doesn't quite get it, though, because he's rather thick.
The fun starts at:
http://vho.org/VffG/2000/1/Krege62-64.html
Leuchtered even before he got off the starting blocks.
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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Ludwig
On August 22 and 23, 1945 a Polish investigating commission went to
Treblinka I to do some excavations and look for the mass graves. They
discovered three mass graves and 13 individual graves. The excavations
gave the following results:
One grave of 10m x 5m x 2m with 105 corpses, buried in layers with 5
to 7 corpses, with 50cm earth between layers.
Another grave 10m x 5m x 1.9m with 97 corpses, also with earth between
layers.
The third grave 10m x 5m x 2.5m and 103 bodies, again earth between
layers.
Polish Judge Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz with a group of Polish workers
started excavating in Treblinka II in the area of the alleged mass
graves as indicated by numrous eye witnesses between November 9 and
November 13, 1945 with the following results:
Nov. 9, 1945 they dug up to a depth of 6m. Besides a couple of coins
they found no human remains.
Nov. 10, 1945 they continued below 6 m depth and found pieces of
clothes, some documents and houshold gear. But no human remains.
Nov. 11, 1945 they did some test excavations in the area of the
alleged gas chamber. Below 1.5m they hit virgin soil. In the largest
6m deep and 25m wide crater caused by the explosion of a bomb they
discovered in the walls a large amount of ashes as well as human
remains. Further excavations resulted in numerous human remains,
partially decomposed. At a depth of 7.5m they hit bottom.
Nov. 13 they excavated another pit, a garbage dump in the
north-eastern part of the camp. They found a large number of rags,
more coins, documents and parts of a soviet passport. At a depth of 5m
they stopped excavating.
Concluded Judge Lukaszkiewicz in his report: No mass graves were found
within the area of the camp Treblinka II.
On August 9 and 10, 1946 Judge Lukaszkiewicz together with a surveyor
and medical doctor checked outside of the camp Treblinka I and found
in an area 500m south of the camp the remains of 41 mass graves in an
area of about 1.607m². One mass grave contained 6 corpses.
Lukaszkiewicz assumed that the area could have been the burial site of
up to 6,500 corpses.
Source: Wojtczak, Stanislaw, "Karny oboz pracy Treblinka I i osrodek
zaglady Treblinka II".
Ludwig
Morghus
All constructions at Treblinka were only temporary surface
buildings. They were dismantled and removed when the camp was closed.
No one has ever found any remnants of buildings at Treblinka. Krege's
team searched beneath the surface--there was nothing there either.
But Krege was not the first to search and find nothing at
Treblinka. There had been another search conducted in 1945 by the
Polish authorities. It was described in an Amicus Curiae Brief filed
by the Polish Historical Society at the show trial of John Demjanjuk
in Israel. Here is a quote from the brief:
"During November of 1945, in preparation for the Nuremberg trial, the
Polish magistrate of the district court in Siedlce ordered an
exploration of the former Treblinka II camp based on eyewitness
testimony of the atrocities allegedly committed there....
"The location of the Lazaret pit was quickly found. Survivors alleged
that 50,000 people were executed by shooting in this pit. However,
while the thorough forensic exploration revealed a number of small
personal articles belonging to the deported Jews and semi-burned camp
refuse admixed with a few dozen small foreign coins, it failed to
discover any residue of human bones...
"The location of the Treblinka II gas chambers, the two largest
masonry buildings in the district (one purportedly measuring about 30
в 15 meters), could not be recalled and agreed upon by the survivors.
Since these buildings had to be located in the two-hectare-small
'Upper Camp', the commission cut a number of long and deep exploratory
trenches running in a north-south direction. Not a single shard of
red, nor any other color, terra cotta tile, was found during the
thorough excavations. Exhibit 93. Neither was there a trace of a thick
concrete slab which had to serve as a base for the ceramic tiled walls
and floors of the gas chambers, nor any trace of concrete or masonry
foundations capable of supporting such heavy structures in Treblinka's
sandy soil (which was subject to deep frosts) was discovered."
Krege and his team knew of the previous diggings and did not
include that area in their search. But they included all other
sections of the former Treblinka, and even searched the surrounding
areas outside of the known boundaries. The results? Nothing. Not a
single sign of mass graves anywhere.
You Caustians are just going to have to get used to it--all the
horror stories about the infamous Treblinka death camp are nothing but
lies. Treblinka was just a small transit camp for Jews being
transported to the East.
Morghus
>On August 22 and 23, 1945 a Polish investigating commission went to
>Treblinka I to do some excavations and look for the mass graves. They
>discovered three mass graves and 13 individual graves. The
excavations
>gave the following results:
>One grave of 10m x 5m x 2m with 105 corpses, buried in layers with 5
>to 7 corpses, with 50cm earth between layers.
>Another grave 10m x 5m x 1.9m with 97 corpses, also with earth
between
>layers.
>The third grave 10m x 5m x 2.5m and 103 bodies, again earth between
>layers.
Are you referring to the Soviet-Jewish commission report? Those are
the same people who prepared the report on the Katyn massacre blaming
the Germans for Bolshevik atrocities. While they claimed they located
graves capable of holding only 10,000 bodies at Treblinka, I don't
really believe that either. I tend to doubt they even went to
Treblinka. The Polish commission found no graves, and Krege's radar
study over fifty years later confirmed that. Any report by a group
commissioned by the Soviets in 1945 should be taken with a grain of
salt--maybe with a few hundred tons of salt.
William Daffer
Nope.
whd
--
On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:18:49 +0100, in message
<3b9e...@news-uk.onetel.net.uk>, David E. Michael expressed support
for the craven cowards who hijacked four airliners, flying two into
the Twin Towers, one into the Pentagon and simply crashing the fourth,
with an attendant loss of life estimated in the thousands, with the
words:
"This afternoon a truly wonderful thing has happened . . . Today was
a glorious day. May there be many others like it."
For the complete post of this terrorist sympathizer, see:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3b9e5465%40news-uk.onetel.net.uk
us...@domain.invalid
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> In <3f06c4e9$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on
> Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:30:51 +0800, us...@domain.invalid wrote:
>
>
>>According to "holocaust" history the victims in Treblinka were
>>forced to undress, then they were forced to the gas chambers
>>(18-20 jews on 1 square meter, it means 1 jew on 20cm x 25cm),
>>gassed and they poor bodies were dragged into the ditches.
>
>
>
>>hmm:
>
>
>
>>http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_treblinka/mass_grave.htm
>
>
>
>>but why they are then dressed again ?
>
>
> I guess they didn't all get undressed.
well - you guess... "holocaust" eyewitnesses claim something different
(and exactly those who did not undress are in the picture)
> But perhaps you think the
think AND guess (or imagine) are different things...
> fact theat they are wearing clothes means they are only pretending to
> be dead.
>
who said that ? John Morris.
I m more interested in evidence about *800 000* "holocausted" jews in
Treblinka.
us...@domain.invalid
Thanks a lot - good one. (I can read German.)
John Morris
Hash: SHA1
In <73fedc95.03070...@posting.google.com> in
alt.revisionism, on 5 Jul 2003 20:24:58 -0700,
mor...@MailAndNews.com (Morghus) wrote:
> John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA> wrote in message
> news:<60legvgbgs95cs65q...@4ax.com>...
> > In <3f071fef$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on
> > Sun, 06 Jul 2003 02:59:12 +0800, us...@domain.invalid wrote:
> > > Morghus wrote:
> > > > What's more, we know the picture was not taken at Treblinka.
> > > > Ground penetrating radar studies by an Australian team
> > > > confirmed that there are no graves at Treblinka. The
> > > > Australians covered the entire camp and surrounding area with
> > > > a special radar machine that can detect soil disturbances
> > > > down to about 30 feet. The result: nothing--no bodies, no
> > > > graves, no soil disturbances for hundreds of years.
> > Oh, don't stop there. They found no single graves, no
> > construction rubble, no evidence of any buildings of any kind, no
> > buried rubbish, no hint that human beings had ever set foot on
> > the ground at any time in history. In short, the Magic Radar
> > Machine couldn't find a camp at Treblinka.
> > > > The hole shown in
> > > > that photograph created such soil disturbance that it would
> > > > be detectable to the naked eye even after sixty years and
> > > > most assuredly would have shown up on the radar screen.
> > > > The whole thing is just another fraudulent claim by the
> > > > Caustians. They are forced to resort to such
> > > > shenanigans--there is no real evidence to support any of the
> > > > preposterous Holocaust tales.
> > > Did the australian team post something about their research on
> > > the Internet ?
> > Yes, and it was incredibly funny since the so-called electrical
> > engineer Richard Krege found no trace of any camp whatsoever at
> > Treblinka and sort of forgot that he was investigating a camp
> > whose existence wasn't in dispute.
> > Morghus doesn't quite get it, though, because he's rather thick.
> All constructions at Treblinka were only temporary surface
> buildings. They were dismantled and removed when the camp was
> closed.
So you say there was a camp there. Did you know that Krege claimed
to no less than two Australian newspapers that there never was a camp
Treblinka? I don't know if the newspaper articles are still on the
so-called Adelaide Institute's website. They may have taken them
down out of sheer embarrassment.
> No one has ever found any remnants of buildings at Treblinka.
> Krege's team searched beneath the surface--there was nothing there
> either.
And since you already know that the went in the wet season, and since
you already that the effectiveness of radar is reduced by water, one
assumes that you still clinging to a delusion.
> But Krege was not the first to search and find nothing at
> Treblinka. There had been another search conducted in 1945 by the
> Polish authorities. It was described in an Amicus Curiae Brief
> filed by the Polish Historical Society
The Polish Historical Society? Are you trying to kill me? I'm going
to die laughing.
The Polish Historical Society is usenet joke. It used to post in its
entirety to soc.culture.polish pretending to be a variety of Polish
men and women lying about its identity, its location, its sex, and
its physical diabilities. In fact it was single Ukrainian emigre
named Myroslav Dragan who lives in upstate New York and who appears
to be operating on the intellectual level of 12-year-old boy.
It never ceases to amaze me the patent nonsense your delusions allow
to accept.
A likely story. Especially considering Krege's own
self-contradictory claim that there was no camp at Treblinka for him
to find traces of.
> But they included all other
> sections of the former Treblinka, and even searched the surrounding
> areas outside of the known boundaries. The results? Nothing. Not a
> single sign of mass graves anywhere.
Nor any sign of a camp. The very camp you claim was there.
> You Caustians are just going to have to get used to it--all
> the horror stories about the infamous Treblinka death camp are
> nothing but lies. Treblinka was just a small transit camp for Jews
> being
> transported to the East.
Because you say so? And where precisely are the records of these
movements further East? And where "further East" did they go?
And why do I get the distinct impression you're not going to answer?
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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John Morris
Hash: SHA1
In <3f07d0e6$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on
Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:34:16 +0800, us...@domain.invalid wrote:
> John Morris wrote:
> > In <3f06c4e9$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on
> > Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:30:51 +0800, us...@domain.invalid wrote:
> >>According to "holocaust" history the victims in Treblinka were
> >>forced to undress, then they were forced to the gas chambers
> >>(18-20 jews on 1 square meter, it means 1 jew on 20cm x 25cm),
> >>gassed and they poor bodies were dragged into the ditches.
> >>hmm:
> >>http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_treblinka/mass_grave.htm
> >>but why they are then dressed again ?
> > I guess they didn't all get undressed.
> well - you guess... "holocaust" eyewitnesses claim something
> different (and exactly those who did not undress are in the
> picture)
Oh, you're another one of those idiots who believes that Holocaust
witnesses, unlike other witnesses, must be all-seeing and have seen
all events all the time and that if things were done one way that had
to be done exactly the same way forever after.
It's isn't fun finding out that you are merely true to type?
> > But perhaps you think the
>
> think AND guess (or imagine) are different things...
>
> > fact theat they are wearing clothes means they are only
> > pretending to be dead.
>
> who said that ? John Morris.
> I m more interested in evidence about *800 000* "holocausted" jews
> in Treblinka.
No you're not. If you were, you'd read a book instead of trotting
out the same tiresome round of denier excuses for not believeing
history.
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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us...@domain.invalid
well , the difference between "holocaust" religion and real science is
that a scientific investigation could be repeated at any time - even
during a "dry period".
us...@domain.invalid
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> In <3f07d0e6$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on
> Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:34:16 +0800, us...@domain.invalid wrote:
>
>
>>John Morris wrote:
>
>
>>>In <3f06c4e9$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on
>>>Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:30:51 +0800, us...@domain.invalid wrote:
>
>
>>>>According to "holocaust" history the victims in Treblinka were
>>>>forced to undress, then they were forced to the gas chambers
>>>>(18-20 jews on 1 square meter, it means 1 jew on 20cm x 25cm),
>>>>gassed and they poor bodies were dragged into the ditches.
>
>
>>>>hmm:
>
>
>>>>http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_treblinka/mass_grave.htm
>
>
>>>>but why they are then dressed again ?
>
>
>>>I guess they didn't all get undressed.
>
>
>>well - you guess... "holocaust" eyewitnesses claim something
>>different (and exactly those who did not undress are in the
>>picture)
>
>
> Oh, you're another one of those idiots who believes that Holocaust
> witnesses, unlike other witnesses, must be all-seeing and have seen
> all events all the time and that if things were done one way that had
> to be done exactly the same way forever after.
No. I did not say that.
"eye-witness" Yankel Wiernik claims that he spent ONE YEAR in Treblinka.
Among other things he claims that he was pulling dead bodies from the
gasschambers into the ditches.
>
> It's isn't fun finding out that you are merely true to type?
>
Yes. Yankel Wiernik is really "merely true to type" :)
>
>>>But perhaps you think the
>>
>>think AND guess (or imagine) are different things...
>>
>>
>>>fact theat they are wearing clothes means they are only
>>>pretending to be dead.
>>
>>who said that ? John Morris.
>>I m more interested in evidence about *800 000* "holocausted" jews
>>in Treblinka.
>
>
> No you're not. If you were, you'd read a book instead of trotting
> out the same tiresome round of denier excuses for not believeing
> history.
>
Yes I read books and articles on Treblinka, however I m not that much
interested in "jewish poetry" and "holocaust tales", but more in facts
and evidence. That's the difference between us - you do have your
"faith" and you do "believe" - I m just a bit more rational.
William Daffer
The difference between the science as practiced by real scientists
and 'holocaust revisionists' is that the former would have known
about the reduction in efficacy in wet weather while the latter
would either be ignorant of it or would *depend* on it.
The former scenario describes Leuchter. I'm of the opinion that the
latter describes Krege.
whd
--
Pat Blakely on the definition of terrorism
A terrorist act is an act by a group of people whom you oppose.
If you are a militant Moslem, the blowing up of the WTC was an act of
war, just as what the US is doing to the Taliban.
From <9rf4ur$4fn$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com>
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be us...@domain.invalid wrote
>Morghus wrote:
>>>Morghus wrote:
And can you read that they found no evidence of a camp of any sort on
that site?
Or are you now going to embrace the idea that the Treblinka camp never
existed?
John Morris
Hash: SHA1
In <3f08c27f$0$3...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on Mon,
07 Jul 2003 08:45:46 +0800, us...@domain.invalid wrote:
[snip]
> Yes I read books and articles on Treblinka, however I m not that
> much interested in "jewish poetry" and "holocaust tales", but more
> in facts and evidence. That's the difference between us - you do
> have your "faith" and you do "believe" - I m just a bit more
> rational.
Your posts aren't exactly littered with facts, now are they? Just
the usual flat denials and a sneering attitude. Again, true to type.
But since you're so well-read and so interested, who presented
evidence on the death toll at Treblinka in the Treblinka trials at
Duesseldorf? How did he reach his conclusion?
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
in message <j1qhgvktk9c7ete3r...@4ax.com>:
>In <3f08c27f$0$3...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on Mon,
>07 Jul 2003 08:45:46 +0800, us...@domain.invalid wrote:
[snip]
>> Yes I read books and articles on Treblinka, however I m not that
>> much interested in "jewish poetry" and "holocaust tales", but more
>> in facts and evidence. That's the difference between us - you do
>> have your "faith" and you do "believe" - I m just a bit more
>> rational.
>Your posts aren't exactly littered with facts, now are they? Just
>the usual flat denials and a sneering attitude. Again, true to type.
>
>But since you're so well-read and so interested, who presented
>evidence on the death toll at Treblinka in the Treblinka trials at
>Duesseldorf? How did he reach his conclusion?
Now, now, John -- you should know better than to ask a denier to
actually *know* anything about the history they are "revisionizing."
us...@domain.invalid
"camp of any sort" is your creation.
There are "eyewitnesses claims" about the Treblinka "extermination" camp
with concrete gass chambers, mass graves for 800 000 victims, etc.
And there is the "evil" "antisemitic" reality "full of hate", that is
not supporting any of those claims.
You are one of those who is actually saying - that those "eyewitnesses"
often made claims that are not true or correct.
What evidence actually does exist about Treblinka "extermination camp",
Treblinka's gas chambers and 800 000 victims ?
I m aware of the "Stroop report" saying that "6,929 Jews were destroyed
by transport to T. II" - well if T. II is Treblinka II, fine but what
about "the rest" 730 000 "victims" ?
In fact there is a piece of text that directly contradicts the
"eyewitness testimonies" and "holocaust" estimations about
1000s of gassed and burned jews every day:
Rudolf Hoess on Treblinka:
"I visited Treblinka to find out how they carried out their
extermination. The camp commandant at Treblinka told me that he had
liquidated 80,000 in the course of half a year."
(it means 437 victims/day )
taken from:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/aktion-reinhard/treblinka/hoess-at-treblinka.html
However there is NO EVIDENCE at the place of former Treblinka camp to
support any of those claims.
>
> Or are you now going to embrace the idea that the Treblinka camp never
> existed?
Where are the remains of the concrete gass chambers ?
Where are the remains of those HUGE MASS GRAVES ?
Are you going to "embrace the idea that" the Nazis destroyed 100% of
evidence ?
Ludwig
My information is from the new book "Treblinka" by Mattogno/Graf. And
they got their's from the Federal Russian Archives in Moscow.
Ludwig
Ludwig
[...]
> "camp of any sort" is your creation.
> There are "eyewitnesses claims" about the Treblinka "extermination" camp
> with concrete gass chambers, mass graves for 800 000 victims, etc.
>
> And there is the "evil" "antisemitic" reality "full of hate", that is
> not supporting any of those claims.
> You are one of those who is actually saying - that those "eyewitnesses"
> often made claims that are not true or correct.
>
> What evidence actually does exist about Treblinka "extermination camp",
> Treblinka's gas chambers and 800 000 victims ?
>
> I m aware of the "Stroop report" saying that "6,929 Jews were destroyed
> by transport to T. II" - well if T. II is Treblinka II, fine but what
> about "the rest" 730 000 "victims" ?
>
The Treblinka camp served as a transfer camp mostly for Jews from the
Warsaw district. According to the Judenrat of Warsaw who kept record
of the Jews that were evacuated from the Warsaw ghetto, about 251,000
were deported to Treblinka.
Railroad documentations for the transports of Jews to Treblinka seem
to be quite scarce. According to information a daily special transport
with Jews for resettlement commuted between Warsaw and Treblinka from
August 6, 1942.
Albert Ganzenmüller, Staatssekretär in the Reichsverkehrsministerium
reported to SS-Gruppenführer Wolff on July 29, 1942: "Since August 22
a daily train transport with 5000 Jews departs from Warsaw to
Treblinka, also twice weekly a train with 5000 Jews leaves Warsaw for
Belzec." Wolff confirmed this.
During the Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt, Germany on April 11, 1962
Wolff explained: "I did not at that time connect Treblinka with the
idea of a mass extermination camp. I assumed that it was a reservation
for Jews, as it was explained by Himmler to me."
The Stroop-report (PS-1061, IMG Vol. XXVI) says: "The first large
evacuation was in the period from July 22 to October 3, 1942 with
310,322 Jews evacuated."
Adalbert Rückerl in "NS-Vernichtungslager" about the Treblinka trials
in Düsseldorf, Germany, lists at least 700,000 persons, scientifically
proven, mostly Jews, some Gypsies, being killed. This number is based
on an expert report by Dr. Helmut Krausnick (who is also an expert on
the Einsatzgruppen). His number is based on information from Poland.
This number was accepted by the
German courts. The German expert witness Dr. Scheffler even went
higher: He estimated 900,000 mostly Jews being killed in Treblinka.
And then of course we have the Soviet estimate of 3 million people
killed in Treblinka.
The Treblinka numbers seem to vary quite a bit, very confusing.
How these various "experts" arrived at their numbers, I don't have the
foggiest. Adding to it the various alleged killing methods (steam,
electrocution, diesel exhaust) and the difficulties in locating the
mass graves of so many people, and the unwillingness of the German
courts to check it out, and the criminalization of discussing the
Holocaust in Germany, I find very disturbing.
Ludwig
Kurt Knoll
"John Morris" <John....@UAlberta.CA> wrote in message
It must have been a one sided kangaroo court where only one site talks
and the other only listens.
Kurt Knoll.
========
John Morris
Hash: SHA1
In <14eaa81f.03070...@posting.google.com> in
alt.revisionism, on 7 Jul 2003 08:30:51 -0700, kolch...@yahoo.com
(Ludwig) wrote:
> us...@domain.invalid wrote in message
> news:<3f090604$0$4...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>... [...]
> > "camp of any sort" is your creation.
> > There are "eyewitnesses claims" about the Treblinka
> > "extermination" camp with concrete gass chambers, mass graves for
> > 800 000 victims, etc.
> > And there is the "evil" "antisemitic" reality "full of hate",
> > that is not supporting any of those claims.
> > You are one of those who is actually saying - that those
> > "eyewitnesses" often made claims that are not true or correct.
> > What evidence actually does exist about Treblinka "extermination
> > camp", Treblinka's gas chambers and 800 000 victims ?
> > I m aware of the "Stroop report" saying that "6,929 Jews were
> > destroyed by transport to T. II" - well if T. II is Treblinka
> > II, fine but what about "the rest" 730 000 "victims" ?
> The Treblinka camp served as a transfer camp mostly for Jews from
> the Warsaw district.
Where were they transferred to. Be precise and document your claim.
> According to the Judenrat of Warsaw who kept record
> of the Jews that were evacuated from the Warsaw ghetto, about
> 251,000 were deported to Treblinka.
> Railroad documentations for the transports of Jews to Treblinka
> seem to be quite scarce.
Not so scarece as you would have us believe.
> According to information a daily special transport
> with Jews for resettlement commuted between Warsaw and Treblinka
> from August 6, 1942.
> Albert Ganzenmüller, Staatssekretär in the
> Reichsverkehrsministerium reported to SS-Gruppenführer Wolff on
> July 29, 1942: "Since August 22 a daily train transport with 5000
> Jews departs from Warsaw to
> Treblinka, also twice weekly a train with 5000 Jews leaves Warsaw
> for Belzec." Wolff confirmed this.
> During the Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt, Germany on April 11, 1962
> Wolff explained: "I did not at that time connect Treblinka with the
> idea of a mass extermination camp. I assumed that it was a
> reservation for Jews, as it was explained by Himmler to me."
> The Stroop-report (PS-1061, IMG Vol. XXVI) says: "The first large
> evacuation was in the period from July 22 to October 3, 1942 with
> 310,322 Jews evacuated."
> Adalbert Rückerl in "NS-Vernichtungslager" about the Treblinka
> trials in Düsseldorf, Germany, lists at least 700,000 persons,
> scientifically proven, mostly Jews, some Gypsies, being killed.
> This number is based on an expert report by Dr. Helmut Krausnick
> (who is also an expert on the Einsatzgruppen). His number is based
> on information from Poland. This number was accepted by the German
> courts.
Krausnick's information is based German upon railway records, which
are not so scarce as you would have us believe.
For all the efforts the Nazis made to conceal the extermination of
the Jews, they overlooked the trains they hired.
> The German expert witness Dr. Scheffler even went
> higher: He estimated 900,000 mostly Jews being killed in Treblinka.
> And then of course we have the Soviet estimate of 3 million people
> killed in Treblinka.
For Auschwitz, the Soviets used a methodology identical to the one
used by the so-called Revisionists: they estimated crematory
capacity, though with different assumptions about maximum capacity.
Since the methodology produces produces very large numbers and
comparatively very small numbers, it does not seem to be a useful way
of estimating a death toll.
If the Soviets used a similar method for Treblinka, it should be
discounted just as their figure for Auschwitz was discounted (in the
West, as early as the International Military Tribunal).
> The Treblinka numbers seem to vary quite a bit, very confusing.
It is not at all confusing unless you choose to be confused. There
is necessarily some uncertainty about the total deaths at anyone
location since there are gaps in the records. But we are dealing
with a net loss in the population of Polish Jews, and as Franciszek
Piper points out in his study of the losses at Auschwitz, if you
reduce the death toll at one location, you must increase it at
another and vice versa.
> How these various "experts" arrived at their numbers, I don't have
> the foggiest.
That's right: you don't.
> Adding to it the various alleged killing methods (steam,
> electrocution, diesel exhaust)
Alleged by whom, though? The _Black Book of Polish Jewry_, where a
lot of these claims come from, was published during the war and never
revised in a nay resissue. No one considers it an authoritative
source, though Holocaust deniers *always* act as if it were
authoritative. It is part and parcel of the fundamental dishonesty
of the project that so cynically calls itself "Revisionism."
> and the difficulties in locating the
> mass graves of so many people,
There seems to have been no trouble at Belzec once the archaeolgists
began their work. Perhaps your doubts will be allayed when a similar
project is undertaken at Treblinka.
> and the unwillingness of the German
> courts to check it out, and the criminalization of discussing the
> Holocaust in Germany, I find very disturbing.
Discussion of Holocaust has been criminalized in Germany. That is a
false statement routinely used by Holocaust deniers to excuse their
own inability to locate any evidence that would revise the general
picture of the NS-Genocide. I do hope you have not been fooled by
that sort of nonsense.
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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In <14eaa81f.03070...@posting.google.com> in
alt.revisionism, on 7 Jul 2003 07:29:25 -0700, kolch...@yahoo.com
(Ludwig) wrote:
[snip]
> My information is from the new book "Treblinka" by Mattogno/Graf.
> And they got their's from the Federal Russian Archives in Moscow.
Oh well, there's your problem right there: you believe liars.
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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Kurt Knoll
"John Morris" <John....@UAlberta.CA> wrote in message
Morris I would like to see more about the Russian version of the
Holocaust. Definitely some Jews ended up in Russia instead going to the
west. Whataja you say is there something wrong in comparing and
verification what are you afraid of ?.
Kurt Knoll.
=======
Kurt Knoll
"John Morris" <John....@UAlberta.CA> wrote in message
The discussion of the Holocaust in Germany has certainly been
Criminalized why the do they go to jail for it if they don't agree with
the version you people present.
Kurt Knoll.
======
Patrick Keenan
news:10576219...@critter.monarch.net...
>
> "John Morris" <John....@UAlberta.CA> wrote in message
> news:f6tjgvgtcv62j9oj1...@4ax.com...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > In <14eaa81f.03070...@posting.google.com> in
> > alt.revisionism, on 7 Jul 2003 07:29:25 -0700, kolch...@yahoo.com
> > (Ludwig) wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > My information is from the new book "Treblinka" by Mattogno/Graf.
> > > And they got their's from the Federal Russian Archives in Moscow.
> >
> > Oh well, there's your problem right there: you believe liars.
> >
> > - --
> > John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
> > at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
> >
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> >
>
> Morris I would like to see more about the Russian version of the
> Holocaust.
Then by all means, go do the research. You are your only obstacle.
> Definitely some Jews ended up in Russia instead going to the
> west.
Out of curiosity, what do you think Stalin's position was towards people who
had been in the West? What do you think happened to them after the war -
or during it?
> Whataja you say is there something wrong in comparing and
> verification what are you afraid of ?.
Personally, I look forward to reading your research.
You *are* going to carry through, aren't you?
-pk
>
> Kurt Knoll.
> =======
>
Sara Salzman
"Kurt Knoll" <kur...@uniserve.com> wrote:
My family didn't "end up" in Russia, Mr. Knoll, they LIVED there. That
is, until the Einsatzgruppen murdered them.
Sara
PS. And don't bother to demand evidence, I already supplied it to you,
from the niece of Alfred Ebner, who led the EG in that area, a GERMAN
non-Jewish Professor of Theology at St. Mary's College, in Maryland.
--
First in war, first in peace, first to holler "I QUIT!"
Jubilation T. Cornpone, Scott Bradbury's obvious mentor.
Kurt Knoll
"Sara Salzman" <cata...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:catamont-1870F4...@spectator.sj.sys.us.xo.net...
Some of my friends Families ended up in Siberia as slave labour most of
them did die of starvation or were worked to death.
Kurt Knoll.
=======
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be us...@domain.invalid wrote
>Roger wrote:
>> In one age, called the Second Age by some,
>> (an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
>> someone claiming to be us...@domain.invalid wrote
>> in message <3f07dda2$0$22...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>:
>>>>>>>According to "holocaust" history the victims in Treblinka were forced to
No, the Germans built Treblinka -- the camp that Krege was unable to
find any evidence of having been there at all.
<snip various non-normative claims re: Treblinka>
Let me know when you have read a *history* book by an *historian* and
have problems with the normative view of history.
Morghus
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> In <14eaa81f.03070...@posting.google.com> in
> alt.revisionism, on 7 Jul 2003 08:30:51 -0700, kolch...@yahoo.com
> (Ludwig) wrote:
>
> > us...@domain.invalid wrote in message
> > news:<3f090604$0$4...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>... [...]
>
> > > "camp of any sort" is your creation.
> > > There are "eyewitnesses claims" about the Treblinka
> > > "extermination" camp with concrete gass chambers, mass graves for
> > > 800 000 victims, etc.
>
> > > And there is the "evil" "antisemitic" reality "full of hate",
> > > that is not supporting any of those claims.
> > > You are one of those who is actually saying - that those
> > > "eyewitnesses" often made claims that are not true or correct.
>
> > > What evidence actually does exist about Treblinka "extermination
> > > camp", Treblinka's gas chambers and 800 000 victims ?
>
> > > I m aware of the "Stroop report" saying that "6,929 Jews were
> > > destroyed by transport to T. II" - well if T. II is Treblinka
> > > II, fine but what about "the rest" 730 000 "victims" ?
>
> > The Treblinka camp served as a transfer camp mostly for Jews from
> > the Warsaw district.
>
> Where were they transferred to. Be precise and document your claim.
OK. Here is an excerpt from an official report prepared Richard
Korherr, head of the Statistics Department in Himmler's office. It
covers all of the evacuations through March,1943.
(begin quote)
V. Evacuation of the Jews
...
According to the figures of the Reich Security Main Office
(Reichssicherheitshaptamp) up to January 1, 1943, the following moves
took
place:
From the Altreich** and Sudetenland 100,516 Jews
From the Ostmark [Austria] 47,555 Jews
From the Protectorate 69,677 Jews
Total 217,748 Jews
These figures include Jews evacuated to the Old-Age Ghetto in
Theresienstadt.
The total of these evacuations from the area of the Reich, including
the
eastern territories, and beyond them in the area of German control and
influence in Europe, from October 1939 or later, and up to December
31,
1942, were as follows:
1. Evacuation of Jews from Baden and the Palatinate (Pfalz) to
France
6,504 Jews
2. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich, including the Protectorate and
the
District of Bialystok to the East 170,642.
3. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich and the Protectorate to
Theresienstadt 87,193
4. Transportation of Jews from the eastern provinces to eastern
Russia
1,449,692 Jews
[Numbers] who passed through the camps in the Government-General
1,274,166
Through the camps in the Warthegau 145,301
(end quote)
Incidentally, this report is posted by Yad Vashem at
http://www.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/documents/part2/doc158.html
There. Now that we have provided precise documentation of
evacuations(including 1,274,166 Jews who passed through the Camps in
the General Government--which includes Treblinka), it is your turn to
produce evidence of the terrible mass murders at Treblinka.
Remember: "Be precise and document your claim."
But...you can't, can you? There is no documentation of anyone
being gassed at Treblinka. In fact, there is no documentation of
anyone being gassed at any camp anywhere. What's more, there are no
remains of any bodies that would help you establish any claim that
people were killed at Treblinka. Two studies, more than thirty years
apart, failed to locate any bodies. Furthermore, you can't even point
to the remnants of any gas chambers, or shower rooms, or steam
chambers, or vacuum chambers, or any substantial buildings--or even
the concrete foundations of those mythical chambers--at the site that
was once Treblinka. There is nothing there. There is not a scintilla
of hard evidence that anyone was murdered at Treblinka.
The horror stories about Treblinka are based on preposterous tales
from survivors who claimed they miraculously escaped, and wild guesses
by "Holocaust experts" who simply added up the numbers shown on rail
transport records and "estimated" that all the people on the trains
must have been murdered. It's all just more German-hating Holocaust
hokum.
Kurt Knoll
"Roger" <roger@.> wrote in message
news:e871d1130a778a8e...@free.teranews.com...
Give Krege's Ground Radar to a Jew and he will find bodies that have
never been there ever.
Kurt Knoll.
======
us...@domain.invalid
so where are the mass graves with volume for 800 000 "victims" ? or at
least their remains ?
what technology was used to perfectly remove all the evidence of that
alleged killing machinery at Treblinka ?
how it is possible that there are NO REPORTS about 5 months of OPEN AIR
CREMATIONS ?
what about the "extermination area" - with no wall ? just a fence and a
field with farmers on the other side ? hmm...
Ludwig
> Hash: SHA1
>
> In <14eaa81f.03070...@posting.google.com> in
> alt.revisionism, on 7 Jul 2003 08:30:51 -0700, kolch...@yahoo.com
> (Ludwig) wrote:
>
> > us...@domain.invalid wrote in message
> > news:<3f090604$0$4...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>... [...]
>
> > > "camp of any sort" is your creation.
> > > There are "eyewitnesses claims" about the Treblinka
> > > "extermination" camp with concrete gass chambers, mass graves for
> > > 800 000 victims, etc.
>
> > > And there is the "evil" "antisemitic" reality "full of hate",
> > > that is not supporting any of those claims.
> > > You are one of those who is actually saying - that those
> > > "eyewitnesses" often made claims that are not true or correct.
>
> > > What evidence actually does exist about Treblinka "extermination
> > > camp", Treblinka's gas chambers and 800 000 victims ?
>
> > > I m aware of the "Stroop report" saying that "6,929 Jews were
> > > destroyed by transport to T. II" - well if T. II is Treblinka
> > > II, fine but what about "the rest" 730 000 "victims" ?
>
> > The Treblinka camp served as a transfer camp mostly for Jews from
> > the Warsaw district.
>
> Where were they transferred to. Be precise and document your claim.
>
No problem. Ask Prof. Finkelstein. Document: His book The Holocaust
Industry. His dad was evacuated out of the Warsaw ghetto, then sent to
the Treblinka camp. After being exterminated there he was transferred
to Auschwitz for work.
Finkelstein's dad survived the war, and immigrated to the US. From
there he collected from the German government about $250,000 and lived
happily ever after.
Finkelstein's mother was not so successful. She only received a small
amount of the dough, the rest was taken by the Jewish-Zionist mafia.
Boy, is Finkelstein mad!
Said Dr. Finkelstein: "The worst thing that ever happened to the Nazi
Holocaust was that American Jewry discovered it."
And because there were so many Jewish survivors standing in line for
the monetary handouts, Finckelstein's mother asked: Which Jews did
Hitler actually kill when so many survived?
[..]
Ludwig
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be us...@domain.invalid wrote
>Roger wrote:
>> Let me know when you have read a *history* book by an *historian* and
>> have problems with the normative view of history.
>
>so where are the mass graves with volume for 800 000 "victims" ? or at
>least their remains ?
>
>what technology was used to perfectly remove all the evidence of that
>alleged killing machinery at Treblinka ?
>
>how it is possible that there are NO REPORTS about 5 months of OPEN AIR
>CREMATIONS ?
>
>what about the "extermination area" - with no wall ? just a fence and a
>field with farmers on the other side ? hmm...
As I said: quote from a *history* book by an *historian* and we will
discuss any problems you see with the normative view of history.
us...@domain.invalid
well - at first you have to point to a book where are facts about the
Treblinka camp. Once again I m not interested in "tales", "poetry" or
"normative history assumptions", I m interested in EVIDENCE AND FACTS.
photos, archeological research, elementary school math + at least
average IQ (so I do not have to waste my time with turnips who say that
18-20 people were crowded on 1 square meter).
Kurt Knoll
<us...@domain.invalid> wrote in message
news:3f0aec18$0$4...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
Or the Jews that say the Germans killed 2000 Jews including cremation in
only 4 hours.
Kurt Knoll.
=====
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be us...@domain.invalid wrote
>Roger wrote:
>>>>Let me know when you have read a *history* book by an *historian* and
>>>>have problems with the normative view of history.
>>>so where are the mass graves with volume for 800 000 "victims" ? or at
>>>least their remains ?
>>>
>>>what technology was used to perfectly remove all the evidence of that
>>>alleged killing machinery at Treblinka ?
>>>
>>>how it is possible that there are NO REPORTS about 5 months of OPEN AIR
>>>CREMATIONS ?
>>>
>>>what about the "extermination area" - with no wall ? just a fence and a
>>>field with farmers on the other side ? hmm...
>> As I said: quote from a *history* book by an *historian* and we will
>> discuss any problems you see with the normative view of history.
>well - at first you have to point to a book where are facts about the
>Treblinka camp. Once again I m not interested in "tales", "poetry" or
>"normative history assumptions", I m interested in EVIDENCE AND FACTS.
Were you frightened by a library as a baby, and that's why you are so
reluctant to go talk to a librarian?
>photos, archeological research, elementary school math + at least
>average IQ (so I do not have to waste my time with turnips who say that
>18-20 people were crowded on 1 square meter).
*Still* displaying your ignorance, huh? I thought you said you were
going to research Provan? You know -- find out those *FACTS* you were
just kvetching about, and no more of *your* assumptions.
Or is it that your assumptions are fine, and only those made by
historians based on the evidence are suspect?
John Morris
Hash: SHA1
In <14eaa81f.03070...@posting.google.com> in
alt.revisionism, on 8 Jul 2003 06:35:08 -0700, kolch...@yahoo.com
(Ludwig) wrote:
> John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA> wrote in message
> news:<dcrjgvsujb12f87op...@4ax.com>...
> > In <14eaa81f.03070...@posting.google.com> in
In other words, you cannot document the ultimate whereabouts of Jews
you say were merely in transit at Treblinka, Belzec, or Sobibor.
I guess the standard Revisionist move is to claim they were transit
camps and then hope no one asks.
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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John Morris
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In <73fedc95.03070...@posting.google.com> in
alt.revisionism, on 7 Jul 2003 21:21:21 -0700,
mor...@MailAndNews.com (Morghus) wrote:
> John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA> wrote in message
> news:<dcrjgvsujb12f87op...@4ax.com>...
> > In <14eaa81f.03070...@posting.google.com> in
> > alt.revisionism, on 7 Jul 2003 08:30:51 -0700,
> > kolch...@yahoo.com (Ludwig) wrote:
> > > us...@domain.invalid wrote in message
> > > news:<3f090604$0$4...@echo-01.iinet.net.au>... [...]
> > > > "camp of any sort" is your creation.
> > > > There are "eyewitnesses claims" about the Treblinka
> > > > "extermination" camp with concrete gass chambers, mass graves
> > > > for 800 000 victims, etc.
> > > > And there is the "evil" "antisemitic" reality "full of hate",
> > > > that is not supporting any of those claims.
> > > > You are one of those who is actually saying - that those
> > > > "eyewitnesses" often made claims that are not true or
> > > > correct.
> > > > What evidence actually does exist about Treblinka
> > > > "extermination camp", Treblinka's gas chambers and 800 000
> > > > victims ?
> > > > I m aware of the "Stroop report" saying that "6,929 Jews were
> > > > destroyed by transport to T. II" - well if T. II is
> > > > Treblinka II, fine but what about "the rest" 730 000
> > > > "victims" ?
> > > The Treblinka camp served as a transfer camp mostly for Jews
> > > from the Warsaw district.
> > Where were they transferred to? Be precise and document your
> > claim.
> OK. Here is an excerpt from an official report prepared
> Richard Korherr, head of the Statistics Department in Himmler's
> office. It covers all of the evacuations through March,1943.
>
> (begin quote)
> V. Evacuation of the Jews
> ...
> According to the figures of the Reich Security Main Office
> (Reichssicherheitshaptamp) up to January 1, 1943, the following
> moves took place:
"Up to December 31, 1942," O careless reader.
> From the Altreich** and Sudetenland 100,516 Jews
The question was not from where the Jews were evacuated, the question
where they were in transit *to* when they arrived at Treblinka. Here
is the question again:
Where were they transferred to?
Is the question too wordy? Is there something about "to" that you
don't understand?
> From the Ostmark [Austria] 47,555 Jews
> From the Protectorate 69,677 Jews
> Total 217,748 Jews
> These figures include Jews evacuated to the Old-Age Ghetto in
> Theresienstadt.
Ah. A "to" at last. The model camp at Theresienstadt was evacuated
three times to Auschwitz where its former inamtes were murdered.
> The total of these evacuations from the area of the Reich,
> including the eastern territories, and beyond them in the area of
> German control and influence in Europe, from October 1939 or later,
> and up to December 31, 1942, were as follows:
> 1. Evacuation of Jews from Baden and the Palatinate (Pfalz) to
> France 6,504 Jews
> 2. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich, including the Protectorate
> and the District of Bialystok to the East 170,642.
The "East"? Where in the East? The records of Bialystok deportations
shows the Jews were taken from Bialystok to Treblinka and Auschwitz
which are southwest of Bialystok.
Like Auschwitz, and unlike Treblinka, Bialystok is on a major rail
link to the East.
> 3. Evacuation of Jews from the Reich and the Protectorate to
> Theresienstadt 87,193
And three times cleared to Auschwitz where they were murdered.
> 4. Transportation of Jews from the eastern provinces to eastern
> Russia 1,449,692 Jews
Unlikely. The transportation of Jews to *eastern* Russia would have
involved moving them across an active front between two countries at
war. At the very least, one would expect some record of the
negotiations--most likely involving neutral third parties--of this
transfer.
Moreover, Revisionist often claim that Jews were Bolsheviks and that
the Nazis were right to regard then as enemies of the Reich. Please
explain why the Reich would send 1.4 million people to join the Red
Army.
What is well-documented, hoever, is the deportation of German Jews
"to the East" to Riga where they were shot and buried packed like
sardines, according to Jeckeln.
> [Numbers] who passed through the camps in the Government-General
> 1,274,166
>
> Through the camps in the Warthegau 145,301
>
> (end quote)
You missed this:
<quote>
Total evacuations (including Theresienstadt and
Special Treatment Sonderbehandlung) 1,873,549 "
</quote>
By the end of 1942, the Nazis had murdered 1.8 million Jews according
to the SS's own chief statistician.
You could read Hilberg's discussion of the correspondence between
between Himler and Korherr wher Himmler asks for the report to be
rewritten so as to better disguise the actual fate of the Jews. But
you won't.
> Incidentally, this report is posted by Yad Vashem at
>
> http://www.yadvashem.org/about_holocaust/documents/part2/doc158.html
> There. Now that we have provided precise documentation of
> evacuations(including 1,274,166 Jews who passed through the Camps
> in the General Government--which includes Treblinka), it is your
> turn to produce evidence of the terrible mass murders at Treblinka.
You did not provide the documentation requested as you did not tell
us where the Jews ended up.
> Remember: "Be precise and document your claim."
> But...you can't, can you? There is no documentation of anyone
> being gassed at Treblinka.
Sure there is. You simply don't accept depositions as documentation.
It's a common failing among Revisionists.
Nevertheless, the Federal Republic of Germany held two trials
concerning mass murder at Treblinka and convicted many of the
principals.
So far your only asnwer is some German-hating nonsense about how an
evil Jewish conspiracy is able to control the weak and ineffectual
Germans.
> In fact, there is no documentation of
> anyone being gassed at any camp anywhere. What's more, there are no
> remains of any bodies that would help you establish any claim that
> people were killed at Treblinka. Two studies, more than thirty
> years apart, failed to locate any bodies.
The second of which failed to find a camp at all.
> Furthermore, you can't even point
> to the remnants of any gas chambers, or shower rooms, or steam
> chambers, or vacuum chambers, or any substantial buildings--or even
> the concrete foundations of those mythical chambers--at the site
> that was once Treblinka. There is nothing there. There is not a
> scintilla of hard evidence that anyone was murdered at Treblinka.
According to your second study by Richard "I knew we should have
turned right at Malkinia" Krege, there wasn't even a camp there.
> The horror stories about Treblinka are based on preposterous
> tales from survivors who claimed they miraculously escaped, and
> wild guesses by "Holocaust experts" who simply added up the numbers
> shown on rail transport records and "estimated" that all the people
> on the trains must have been murdered. It's all just more
> German-hating Holocaust hokum.
Now, would be so kind as to document the claim that Treblinka was a
transit camp?
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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John Morris
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In <3f0aaedd$0$4...@echo-01.iinet.net.au> in alt.revisionism, on Tue,
08 Jul 2003 19:46:30 +0800, us...@domain.invalid wrote:
[snip]
> how it is possible that there are NO REPORTS about 5 months of OPEN
> AIR CREMATIONS ?
War Diary No. 1, daily report from Military Commander in the
Generalgouvernement (Nazi-occupied Poland). Report from October 24,
1942, contains the following text:
Supreme Command Ostrow informs that the Jews in Treblinka are not
adequately buried and that, as a result, an unbearable body stench
befouls the air.
How is it that know-nothings like you believe your empty-headed
opinions should be taken seriously?
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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Kurt Knoll
"John Morris" <John....@UAlberta.CA> wrote in message
Definitely there were people Transferred between various camps or do you
believe there was no such thing.
Kurt Knoll.
=======
John Morris
Hash: SHA1
In <10577234...@critter.monarch.net> in alt.revisionism, on
Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:04:16 -0700, "Kurt Knoll" <kur...@uniserve.com>
wrote:
> "John Morris" <John....@UAlberta.CA> wrote in message
> news:k3hmgv8secta21hmk...@4ax.com...
[snip]
> > In other words, you cannot document the ultimate whereabouts of
> > Jews you say were merely in transit at Treblinka, Belzec, or
> > Sobibor.
> > I guess the standard Revisionist move is to claim they were
> > transit camps and then hope no one asks.
> Definitely there were people Transferred between various camps or
> do you believe there was no such thing.
It is perfectly clear that people were being transferred between
camps. One of the factors in Franciszek Piper's conclusion that
1.1-1.3 million people were killed at Auschwitz was the transfers of
about 200,000 people from Auschwitz to other camps.
The Revisionist claim here, however, was that camps in Poland near
the old Soviet frontier served as way stations as Jews were deported
further East. Revisionists seem to be at a total loss to explain
where they went after Treblinka. Some Revisionists say that
Treblinka was built at the old border so that Jews could be assembled
before being sent over the border. But given the war, the Germany
had already penetrated almost a thousand miles into the Soviet Union
while Treblinka was still a glimmer Heydrich's eye. Another "theory"
has it that the railway guage changed at the Polish-Ukrainian
frontier, and Jews were assembled in camps before being transferred
to the different trains. Unfortunately, there are no records of
trains being hired or comandeered for that purpose, no records of
orders being given to obtain trains, and no orders for assembling
train crews.
What we do have is numerous members of camp staff, including guards,
auxiliaries, and two commandants, testifying in two cases before the
Federal Court at Duesseldorf that they killed all the Jews who
arrived at Treblinka.
- --
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Multi pertransibunt & augebitur scientia>
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