Are oil filters created equal.
Ben Hogland
in both my motor home and generator.. Went to NAPA to get a filter after
seeing that the Shucks FRAM filter was less the half the size (same base,
just shorter).. Got me thinking about which brand is better.. What's the
your opinion or what are the facts? Got any links?
Ben
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Ben Hogland
"Stan Birch" <birc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ec9dc92...@news.netrover.com...
> 'Suppose a brief mention of the generator make and model; and
> filter-part-number, might . . . at least in some circles . . . be
regarded as a
> significant preface to your question.
Hi Stan,
My RV is a 7.4 liter Chevy MH does.. I don't know the part number of the
filter but it's a standard chev 454 filter, I suppose.. The Fram filter was
less than half size of the Napa filter.. All I did was ask for the correct
filter for the vehicle at the auto-parts store thus I didn't look at the
part number.. When I saw the size of the Fram, I made them verify it was the
correct one.. They said, after re-verifying, that it was.. I took it home
then compared to the original (before taking the original off). I realized
it wasn't as long so took it back and told them it couldn't be the correct
filter simply because it was much shorter (to hell that the threads and
diameter might be the same).. They took it back and refunded my money after
I told them I didn't believe it was the same and after they continued to
tell me it was the correct filter.. It very well might have fit and might
have been the correct filter, I just couldn't see how it could be half the
length of the old filter already on the rig.....
My Onan generator (is an MicroQuiet 4K) and it does not have a filter.. I
was surprised when I first went to change the oil the first time that is
does not have a replaceable filter too. I was just referring to oil filters
in general in my post....
ww...@cwnet.com
<benho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Just curious what the opinion is regarding this.. Today I changed the oil
>in both my motor home and generator.. Went to NAPA to get a filter after
>seeing that the Shucks FRAM filter was less the half the size (same base,
>just shorter).. Got me thinking about which brand is better.. What's the
>your opinion or what are the facts? Got any links?
>
>Ben
>
>
Ben,
Some years ago, when I was in the lubrication business, Fram was
considered the worst filter on the market. Wix was among the top
brand and the Napa is a Wix filter. The number is the same except that
Napa adds a digit in front of the Wix number. There is a site on the
web that reports on a comparison of the various brands. I have lost
the location now. It gave the specs as to the size particle that they
would filter or pass, and how some would fail etc. Might try a google
search for such a site... For me, I stick with the Wix/Napa, Baldwin,
or Donaldson brands. I won't have a fram on the place..
George
Ben Hogland
box.. The one they gave me was a NAPA Gold 1060. Interestingly enough, the
Napa filter was about $1.50 less than the Fram (at Shucks)..
I don't change my rigs oil myself very often.. I normaly go to a Grease
Monkey or Jiffy Lube most of the time.. I've changed the oil in my RV
myself all of two times in the past 3 years (today being the second time)..
I'll remember to go to Napa in the future for filters.. The last time I
changed the RV oil, I went to another local hole-in-the-wall auto-parts
store (not Shucks or any well known chain store) which was close to where I
live but has since went out of biz (however, they didn't have a problem
giving me the correct size filter including the length on the first try)..
Ben
<ww...@cwnet.com> wrote in message
news:2fsrbv487p1kiuhmd...@4ax.com...
> Some years ago, when I was in the lubrication business, Fram was
> considered the worst filter on the market. Wix was among the top
> brand and the Napa is a Wix filter. The number is the same except that
> Napa adds a digit in front of the Wix number. There is a site on the
> web that reports on a comparison of the various brands. I have lost
> the location now. It gave the specs as to the size particle that they
> would filter or pass, and how some would fail etc. Might try a google
> search for such a site... For me, I stick with the Wix/Napa, Baldwin,
> or Donaldson brands. I won't have a fram on the place..
>
> George
D.J. Osborn
> Just curious what the opinion is regarding this.. Today I changed the oil
> in both my motor home and generator.. Went to NAPA to get a filter after
> seeing that the Shucks FRAM filter was less the half the size (same base,
> just shorter).. Got me thinking about which brand is better.. What's the
> your opinion or what are the facts? Got any links?
Check out http://minimopar.net/oilfilterstudy.html and
http://home.planet.nl/~Jennit/Technical/MotorOilFilters.htm or go to
http://www.google.com/advanced_search
and search for something like "oil filter test" in the box marked "with the
exact phrase."
--
D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762
davidjosborn at sbcglobal dot net
midwesterner
started using Mobil 1 oil filters on my cars a few years ago. When I
bought the motorhome, I went with the Mobil 1 filter for the V10. They
are about double the cost of the el-cheapo filters, but their cost is
in the noise level when you compare to the cost of your vehicle.
"D.J. Osborn" <davidj...@sbcglobally.net> wrote in message news:<_Prva.12040$%_3.64...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>...
Tom
> <benho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Just curious what the opinion is regarding this.. Today I changed the oil
> >in both my motor home and generator.. Went to NAPA to get a filter after
> >seeing that the Shucks FRAM filter was less the half the size (same base,
> >just shorter).. Got me thinking about which brand is better.. What's the
> >your opinion or what are the facts? Got any links?
> >
> >Ben
> >
> >
> Ben,
>
> Some years ago, when I was in the lubrication business, Fram was
> considered the worst filter on the market.
I have used fram for years, about 35 years. I have never had a
problem. I have read every post I could find on the internet. It seems
as though anyone with a hack saw is a filter expert. When I cut a Fram
open, I find a well made filter. Everytime someone tests them by
actually pushing oil through them, they look good.
Tom
Ben Hogland
"Tom" <kct...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:50ff4fd6.0305...@posting.google.com...
> I have used fram for years, about 35 years. I have never had a
> problem. I have read every post I could find on the internet. It seems
> as though anyone with a hack saw is a filter expert. When I cut a Fram
> open, I find a well made filter. Everytime someone tests them by
> actually pushing oil through them, they look good.
I question the size.. Seems pretty obvious to me that something half the
size wouldn't filter as well. I had they re-verify I had the correct filter
several times as you can see from my other posts.. I'm, simply put,
doubtful it can have the same filtering capacity at half the size in the
case of the filter for my rig... No thanks, I'll stick with the less
expensive brand of NAPA which is also twice as long..
FLiP
A while back for some reason GM specified a short filter for their
Vehicles. These were half the length of the full sized filters I do not know
when they stopped that foolish practice. Not sure but this might account for
the difference in size. The NAPA filter being the full size while the FRAM
from Shuck's was the "original" stubby version.
Just more fuel for the fire.
Frank
Mark
On some appliications, the exhaust system and chassis sub-frames got in the
way. To "remedy" this, they specified a shorter filter housing to allow
clearance.
Mark
J. T. Kirby
that most brands of filters for the 454 are available in both the quart and
half quart (short) size, though the part number may be different. Note,
however, that there is a half quart difference in oil capacity when
refilling the crankcase. My unit came from the factory with the short
filter and held six quarts with filter change but I use the larger filter
and need 6.5 quarts for a fill.
JT
--
Messages sent to this address are automatically deleted without being
opened. Legitimate email may be sent to the following address after
removing the spaces, the "m" and fixing the obvious: jtkehk at grum dot net
"Ben Hogland" <benho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b9km0r$keltf$1...@ID-62937.news.dfncis.de...
Lucifer
Ben, try posting your question on a site related to auto racing. You
will find that these people have a very low opinion of Fram oil filters.
The filter material tends to collapse, thus restricting oil flow. As a
result of this problem, most racers don't use them
Lucifer
They may look good to you. They don't perform at the track. Most
racers will not use them.
Lucifer
"D.J. Osborn" <davidj...@sbcglobally.net> wrote in message
news:_Prva.12040$%_3.64...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Thank you for the links. They just confirmed my belief and that of many
others than Fram filters are junk.
Ken Shelton
the end caps were glued off-center and there was a clear passage for the oil
to move through the filter without passing throught the filter media. I've
also seen Fram filters where the internal bypass valve does not seal tightly
and where the antidrainback valve leaks.
I like OEM (ACDelco in this case), WIX & NAPA/Gold, Baldwin & Hastings (same
filter, different paint), better lines from Champion Labs...Bosch Premium,
Mobil 1, Luberfiner, and for diesels, include Donaldson and Fleetguard,
especially the Stratapore.
IffyLube is owned by Pennzoil/Quaker St. Corp. (now bought out by Royal
Dutch/Shell), and their Pennzoil brand filters are relabeled Frams--don't
know about their Quaker St. brand filters.
Ken
"Tom" <kct...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:50ff4fd6.0305...@posting.google.com...
Ben Hogland
"J. T. Kirby" <afn1...@afn.org> wrote in message
news:b9n49j$ksuiv$1...@ID-160876.news.dfncis.de...
> I, too, have the Chevy 454 in my MH. I do my own oil changes and have
found
> that most brands of filters for the 454 are available in both the quart
and
> half quart (short) size, though the part number may be different. Note,
> however, that there is a half quart difference in oil capacity when
> refilling the crankcase. My unit came from the factory with the short
> filter and held six quarts with filter change but I use the larger filter
> and need 6.5 quarts for a fill.
>
> JT
That explains it then because my manual calls for 6 quarts yet I needed to
but 6.5 quarts in to bring it up to the full line (and my last receipts from
Jiffy Lube said 6.5 quarts).
Thanks,
Ben
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Tom
> Fram used to make a good filter. I've seen photos of current Frams where
> the end caps were glued off-center and there was a clear passage for the oil
> to move through the filter without passing throught the filter media. I've
> also seen Fram filters where the internal bypass valve does not seal tightly
> and where the antidrainback valve leaks.
>
internet. I cannot find any fotos of end cap glued off-center. I have
found one person who claims to have found a Fram constructed this way.
I find the claim difficult to believe. The center tube must fit over
the conical end support in order for the filter to go together. Also
the rubber gasket must fit into the center tube on the other end.
These things won't happen unless the endcaps are centered.
I have seen this minimopar garbage. There is no truth in his findings.
If you need convincing, call Fram on their 800 number.
Tom
Thank You for that info. If I ever drive a race car on a track I will
remember that. It will be good to know what other people are not
doing?
Tom
Mark Jones
> If you need convincing, call Fram on their 800 number.
a few bucks and place a very expensive motor at
risk.
Will Sill
filters:
>You go right ahead using them if you want to save
>a few bucks and place a very expensive motor at
>risk.
I don't have a dog in this fight and could not possibly care less who
some racers think make lousy filters - but I'm curious: is there ANY
credible evidence that Fram regularly sells defective or inferior oil
filters that cause engines to croak? How many sucessful lawsuits
have been settled against them? If any, how does that compare with Wix
or whoever? Or is this another rumor based on 4th hand opinions by
the same dimbulbs that "know" that all Firestones are no good, all
mall pet shops are evil, and all hardware store nuts are plated?
Inquiring minds are curious.
Will Sill
cpark...@houston.rr.com
> "Mark Jones" wrote >
> >You go right ahead using them if you want to save
> >a few bucks and place a very expensive motor at
> >risk.
>
> I don't have a dog in this fight and could not possibly care less who
> some racers think make lousy filters - but I'm curious: is there ANY
> credible evidence that Fram regularly sells defective or inferior oil
> filters that cause engines to croak? How many sucessful lawsuits
> have been settled against them? If any, how does that compare with Wix
> or whoever? Or is this another rumor based on 4th hand opinions by
> the same dimbulbs that "know" that all Firestones are no good, all
> mall pet shops are evil, and all hardware store nuts are plated?
>
> Inquiring minds are curious.
Some old hearsay - Many years ago, my friend owned a new Chrysler which blew
an engine after a few thousand miles. The dealer originally told him that
they would not honor the warranty, because he had put in a Fram filter on
his oil change, unless he could prove that the Fram was meeting the <mopar>
specs. Nuther words they were trying to shift the burden of proof to him.
He told them to pee up a rope, and said they could just keep the car, since
it was no good to him. Whereupon, they put in the new engine under
warranty.
--
Charlie Parker
Tom
> Because of the http://minimopar.net/oilfilterstudy.html page, I
> started using Mobil 1 oil filters on my cars a few years ago. When I
> bought the motorhome, I went with the Mobil 1 filter for the V10. They
> are about double the cost of the el-cheapo filters, but their cost is
> in the noise level when you compare to the cost of your vehicle.
>
>
>
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000211#000000
In this test, the Fram with Dino oil out performed the M1 with a
synthetic blend.
Tom
Mark Jones
news:7pmvbvohj3atapfoa...@4ax.com...
> I don't have a dog in this fight and could not possibly care less who
> some racers think make lousy filters - but I'm curious: is there ANY
> credible evidence that Fram regularly sells defective or inferior oil
> filters that cause engines to croak? How many sucessful lawsuits
> have been settled against them? If any, how does that compare with Wix
> or whoever? Or is this another rumor based on 4th hand opinions by
> the same dimbulbs that "know" that all Firestones are no good, all
> mall pet shops are evil, and all hardware store nuts are plated?
and the Fram is an example of getting what you pay for.
Don't expect them to give you a premium filter for a low
price. I want a filter that is built to a higher standard.
It is my opinion that it is worth spending the extra money
when I compare this against the cost of having to have
an overhaul done too soon because of excessive parts wear.
I use filters designed to filter out smaller particles and
that have a stronger outer case.
Will Sill
Would I be unfair to translate that to "I have no evidence
whatsoever."?
I thought so.
Will Sill
Mark Jones
> Would I be unfair to translate that to "I have no evidence
> whatsoever."?
>
> I thought so.
you, what you should use?
I thought so.
Tom
> started using Mobil 1 oil filters on my cars a few years ago. When I
> bought the motorhome, I went with the Mobil 1 filter for the V10. They
> are about double the cost of the el-cheapo filters, but their cost is
> in the noise level when you compare to the cost of your vehicle.
Before you screw on that next M1 filter, read
this:http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=476871
So much for judging filters by cutting then open.
Tom
midwesterner
the internet, that they never change their oil and never change their
oil filter and have never had a problem. Heresay. Could be true. Could
be BS. You have to make your own decision. The answer is probably
somewhere between not giving a crap and doing what you think is the
best solution.
<cpark...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:<b6Rva.8004$7x.8...@twister.austin.rr.com>...
>
> Same old hearsay - Many years ago, my friend owned a new Chrysler which blew
Will Sill
inferior and would ruin your engine. When I challenged him to provide
credible evidence, he back-pedaled furiously with non-specific beliefs
and opinions, and I asked:
>> Would I be unfair to translate that to "I have no evidence
>> whatsoever."?
>>
>> I thought so.
To which he replies:
>Would it be unfair to translate that to "I know better than
>you, what you should use?
No, it would not. You're the one who expressed a belief, and I asked
for evidence that your belief was supportable. I actually do not KNOW
that filters made by company A are inferior to those made by company B
- and my point was and is that in the absence of DATA you don't
either. You are just blowing smoke.
As usual.
Will Sill
I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter.
Mark Jones
> No, it would not. You're the one who expressed a belief, and I asked
> for evidence that your belief was supportable. I actually do not KNOW
> that filters made by company A are inferior to those made by company B
> - and my point was and is that in the absence of DATA you don't
> either. You are just blowing smoke.
> As usual.
and the material is of lower quality than what is used in
the more expensive filters. This is true even when comparing
filters from the same company. The cheapest filter also use
some cardboard inside, while the more expensive filters use
either rubber or metal depending upon the location. The
better filter also do a better job of ensuring that oil can't
bypass the filter element.
There are other subtle, and not so subtle differences that
account for the differences in price. I am willing to pay a little
more to get a high-end filter instead of a filter that has a low
price because of cheap construction.
If you want to know more, do a little research for sites on the
web that show the interior construction and then tell me that
the cheap filters are just as good as the expensive ones.
Dusty
http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/oil_filter_study/
Have fun!
Dusty
"Mark Jones" <sp...@block.com> wrote in message
news:b9pg3n$clr$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
Will Sill
with:
>The cheap filters have fewer square inches of filter material
>and the material is of lower quality than what is used in
>the more expensive filters. This is true even when comparing
>filters from the same company. The cheapest filter also use
>some cardboard inside, while the more expensive filters use
>either rubber or metal depending upon the location. The
>better filter also do a better job of ensuring that oil can't
>bypass the filter element.
>
>There are other subtle, and not so subtle differences that
>account for the differences in price. I am willing to pay a little
>more to get a high-end filter instead of a filter that has a low
>price because of cheap construction.
>
>If you want to know more, do a little research for sites on the
>web that show the interior construction and then tell me that
>the cheap filters are just as good as the expensive ones.
If bafflegab sold for $1/lb., you'd be rich. I challenged your strong
implication that Fram filters were NFG and would ruin your engine. Now
you lather on some more meaningless words ("high end", "expensive",
"interior construction", "cheap") that provide absolutely NO trace of
credible evidence to support your claim.
I never doubted for a second that there were differences between
makes, models and sizes of filters. Fact is, I know quite a bit about
filtration technology, so don't try to bafle me with more BS. Either
support your claims or admit you can't. And don't waste your time
trying to talk me into cyberspace research - I already know that if
you look long enough you can find an autghentic-sounding "source" that
will claim that Wix filter are no good and brake fluid sucks moisture
right through brake hoses.
Will Sill
Mark Jones
> If bafflegab sold for $1/lb., you'd be rich.
Yofuri
one filter.
See:
http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2001/09-004-01.htm
http://cpgparts.alliedsignal.com/cpg/catalog/fram/legal/CumminsBulletin.pdf
Does anyone have any idea how to tell the neoprene-containing version from
the non-neoprene?
Rick
--
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"Will Sill" <wi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:tc83cv4l0rbkvgpcl...@4ax.com...
Lucifer
Maybe this will help.
http://minimopar.net/oilfilterstudy.html#fram-ph8a
Tim KD5CXO
have a built-in bypass valve.
If you forget to change oil and filters - and the filter cloggs up - the
valve will open so you can still use your dirty oil.
A safety feature most of us don't need.
Tim
Alan Balmer
wrote:
>Cummins Diesel and Dodge seem to have had a different opinion, at least on
>one filter.
>
>See:
>
>http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2001/09-004-01.htm
>
>http://cpgparts.alliedsignal.com/cpg/catalog/fram/legal/CumminsBulletin.pdf
>
>Does anyone have any idea how to tell the neoprene-containing version from
>the non-neoprene?
>
>Rick
If you read your own (second) citation, you'll see that the
no-neoprene Fram has a different part number. Better yet, use only a
filter on the manufacturer's recommended list.
--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerc...@att.net
Yofuri
Rick
--
My real e-mail address is: yof...@oakharbor.net
"Alan Balmer" <alba...@att.net> wrote in message
news:pgr4cvoiqjrgqiv2s...@4ax.com...
Will Sill
>Better yet, use only a filter on the manufacturer's recommended list.
Not long ago, I challenged a bozo who strongly implied that Fram
filters were junk and that you risked ruining your engine if you used
one.
Yet virtually every after-market filter supplier from Autozone to NAPA
and even Wal*Mart will have a cross-reference chart that presumably
provides acceptable alternatives if your favorite Purolator or Pep
Boys filter is outa stock.
The question is this: Knowing full well that there ARE differences in
design, flow rate, features, build quality, can size, etc, ad nauseum,
is there any CREDIBLE evidence that Fram (or any other brand) makes a
lot of junk filters that ruin engines??
I have seen various "studies" that purport to shown DIFFERENCES in
performance, and some are both interesting and informative. But I
cannot recall seeing a single substantiated instance justifying the
kind of claims we see here. No doubt somebody somewhere has suffered
an engine failure and successfully sued the filter maker - but if so I
have not seen it. I did find some unrelated interesting stuff,
including an irate post from a guy who said: "Further examination
revealed the Fram rubber seal burst spilling most of the oil out of my
engine. I told myself then, I will never ever use a non-factory filter
my NSX again."
Frankly, these anecdotal reports have been around for a generation,
and I am pretty sure some are authentic and most pure hokum. But what
is the TRUTH? Really?
IMO, no reputable filter manufacturer is going to deliberately produce
filters that fail to meet OEM specs for the vehicles they are designed
to fit. What POSSIBLE benefit could accrue for doing so?
Will Sill
Alan Balmer
>Alan Balmer <alba...@att.net> wrote this priceless prose:
>
>>Better yet, use only a filter on the manufacturer's recommended list.
>
>Not long ago, I challenged a bozo who strongly implied that Fram
>filters were junk and that you risked ruining your engine if you used
>one.
>
>Yet virtually every after-market filter supplier from Autozone to NAPA
>and even Wal*Mart will have a cross-reference chart that presumably
>provides acceptable alternatives if your favorite Purolator or Pep
>Boys filter is outa stock.
>
>The question is this: Knowing full well that there ARE differences in
>design, flow rate, features, build quality, can size, etc, ad nauseum,
>is there any CREDIBLE evidence that Fram (or any other brand) makes a
>lot of junk filters that ruin engines??
That's *a* question, not *the* question. Another is "Will the
dealer/manufacturer use the non-recommended filter as an excuse to
deny a warranty claim?" Yofuri's first reference says that they will.
Will Sill
to my question:
>>The question is this: Knowing full well that there ARE differences in
>>design, flow rate, features, build quality, can size, etc, ad nauseum,
>>is there any CREDIBLE evidence that Fram (or any other brand) makes a
>>lot of junk filters that ruin engines??
Alan:
>That's *a* question, not *the* question. Another is "Will the
>dealer/manufacturer use the non-recommended filter as an excuse to
>deny a warranty claim?" Yofuri's first reference says that they will.
No, MY question appears above, and remains unanswered. It certainly
is not the only question, but it's mine.
Your question is different, and appears to presume that a certain
_brand_ of filter could be the true cause of a failure. But I'll play
yer game: Is use of a Fram filter sufficient to void a waranty?
Whose?
If so, what is the evidence.
Will Sill
Alan Balmer
>Alan Balmer <alba...@att.net> wrote this priceless prose in response
>to my question:
>
>
>>>The question is this: Knowing full well that there ARE differences in
>>>design, flow rate, features, build quality, can size, etc, ad nauseum,
>>>is there any CREDIBLE evidence that Fram (or any other brand) makes a
>>>lot of junk filters that ruin engines??
>
>Alan:
>>That's *a* question, not *the* question. Another is "Will the
>>dealer/manufacturer use the non-recommended filter as an excuse to
>>deny a warranty claim?" Yofuri's first reference says that they will.
>
>No, MY question appears above, and remains unanswered. It certainly
>is not the only question, but it's mine.
OK. *your* question, not *the* question, and not a question which had
a very strong relationship to the quote you were replying to.
>
>Your question is different, and appears to presume that a certain
>_brand_ of filter could be the true cause of a failure.
Either your understanding of plain English, or my writing skills, have
some deficiency. The question above presumes nothing. It simply asks
if the manufacturer would refuse warranty service using non-approved
parts as an excuse.
> But I'll play
>yer game: Is use of a Fram filter sufficient to void a waranty?
>Whose?
>
>If so, what is the evidence.
>
See the last part of the quotation above. If you've mislaid Yofuri's
original references, it's
http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2001/09-004-01.htm
As I also said, the reference says that, I don't. It's possible that
the entire dodgeram site is a hoax, and that they made up all those
TSB's.
Alan Balmer
wrote:
>> But I'll play
>>yer game: Is use of a Fram filter sufficient to void a waranty?
>>Whose?
>>
>>If so, what is the evidence.
>>
>See the last part of the quotation above. If you've mislaid Yofuri's
>original references, it's
>
>http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2001/09-004-01.htm
>
>As I also said, the reference says that, I don't. It's possible that
>the entire dodgeram site is a hoax, and that they made up all those
>TSB's.
BTW, Yofuri's second reference is to an announcement by Fram, saying
that the problem didn't exist, but they fixed it anyway ;-)
Fram (Honeywell) also says that their own warranty policy would cover
an engine damaged by one of their filters.
Will Sill
>>> But I'll play
>>>yer game: Is use of a Fram filter sufficient to void a warranty?
>>>Whose?
>>>
>>>If so, what is the evidence.
>>>
>>See the last part of the quotation above. If you've mislaid Yofuri's
>>original references, it's
>>
>>http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2001/09-004-01.htm
The site is sponsored by "Geno's Garage", an organization that may or
may not be flawlessly credible with no commercial bias. I admit I had
not bothered to study it before, and assume you refer to the
following:
=================
RECOMMENDED OIL FILTERS FOR USE WITH CUMMINS 5.9L DIESEL ENGINE:
Part Number Manufacturer
05016547AC Mopar
LF3894 Fleetguard Stratopore
LF3552 Fleetguard Microglass
LF3949 Fleetguard Cellulose
3937695 Cummins Cellulose
FL896 MotorCraft Cellulose
L45335 Purolator Cellulose
PF1070 AC Delco Cellulose
Policy: Information Only
Notes:
The LF3349 Cellulose filter does not appear on this list. It was
approved in the past for 12Valve engines, but it has been superseded
by the LF3949, which has a stronger metal case for the 24 Valve
engines. You can use your existing LF3349's for 12 valve engines
without concern about warranty coverage.
What does this TSB mean?
If you use one of the filters in this list, you will not have to worry
about warranty coverage of an oil related engine failure. If you
choose to use another filter that is not on the list, DC will
(justifiably) make you pay for repairs if a piston cooling nozzle
becomes clogged by a piece of filter material. Some filters have
disintegrated resulting in severe engine damage. When this happens,
you must seek compensation from the manufacturer of the filter
(numerous reports of Fram failures have surfaced recently, and Wix
filters damaged some 1st Gen engines back in the 90's). If the
manufacturer is standing behind their product, they will pay for the
repairs. GOOD LUCK! Is saving a few bucks on an oil filter really
worth the risk of a $4000 repair bill? Your decision...
====================
The closest thing to an "answer" to my query is the part that says:
"(numerous reports of Fram failures have surfaced recently, and Wix
filters damaged some 1st Gen engines back in the 90's)". That
certainly is "evidence" (however dubious) that both Fram & Wix filters
are _claimed_ to have been involved in engine failures.
Assuming good faith on your part, does that satisfy YOU that Fram
makes junk filters? Or it is unsubstantiated allegation?
Since no Fram model is on the approved list for that specific
application, my assumption would be that failures - if they actually
occurred - would be related to use of a _non-approved filter_,
regardless of brand. Which does not particularly reflect on Fram or
Wix, both of whom make huge numbers of filters, including private
label brands like NAPA. (Does Briggs & Stratton really make their own
filters?)
The issue here is whether a blanket condemnation of a particular brand
is justified by facts, or whether it's just another "FIrestone tires
are crap" gossip job. My money is on the latter.
Will Sill
Mark Jones
> The issue here is whether a blanket condemnation of a particular brand
> is justified by facts, or whether it's just another "FIrestone tires
> are crap" gossip job. My money is on the latter.
with a particular company's filters except for the very
cheapest filters from any given company. I prefer a filter
that uses better parts than a company can afford to
use in a filter that only sells for 2 to 3 dollars.
I do not feel that Fram or any company should be singled
out as having defective filters. I just prefer a little more
safety margin. Kind of like the 75% guideline for towing
capacity. I am willing to spend a few more dollars just
to minimize the possibility of an oil filter problem.
It might be a waste of money, or maybe it isn't. It is
hard to say for certain.
Alan Balmer
>Assuming good faith on your part, does that satisfy YOU that Fram
>makes junk filters?
<sigh>
No, nor did I ever say that they did. One more time - the TSB
referenced says that the manufacturer may refuse to honor a warranty
claim if non-recommended filters are used. No more, no less. It says
nothing, and I say nothing, about the merits of Fram filters. However,
since Fram filters are *not* on the list, one may reasonably conclude
that IF the manufacturer determines that the engine was damaged as a
result of the filter, they may refuse to honor the warranty. On the
other hand, if you use a recommended filter, and the manufacturer
determines that the filter damaged the engine, they *will* honor the
warranty. That's what it means. No more and no less.
If you read the referenced site carefully, you will see that the
reference to Fram is *not* part of the TSB, but is commentary added by
the garage.
Now, if you still feel the need to put words in my mouth, please
re-read this a few times first.
Will Sill
>> The issue here is whether a blanket condemnation of a particular brand
>> is justified by facts, or whether it's just another "FIrestone tires
>> are crap" gossip job. My money is on the latter.
Backpedaling furiously, he now writes:
>Let me put it to you real simple. I don't have a problem
>with a particular company's filters except for the very
>cheapest filters from any given company. I prefer a filter
>that uses better parts than a company can afford to
>use in a filter that only sells for 2 to 3 dollars.
>
>I do not feel that Fram or any company should be singled
>out as having defective filters. I just prefer a little more
>safety margin. Kind of like the 75% guideline for towing
>capacity. I am willing to spend a few more dollars just
>to minimize the possibility of an oil filter problem.
>It might be a waste of money, or maybe it isn't. It is
>hard to say for certain.
Very nice and reasonable sensible admission - but an example of why I
sometimes get a little testy. A few days back, you personally wrote
this priceless prose about Fram filters:
>You go right ahead using them if you want to save
>a few bucks and place a very expensive motor at
>risk.
To which I retorted:
:I don't have a dog in this fight and could not possibly care
:less who some racers think make lousy filters - but I'm curious:
:is there ANY credible evidence that Fram regularly sells
:defective or inferior oil filters that cause engines to croak?
:How many sucessful lawsuits have been settled against them?
:If any, how does that compare with Wix or whoever? Or is this
:another rumor based on 4th hand opinions by the same dimbulbs
:that "know" that all Firestones are no good, all mall pet shops
:are evil, and all hardware store nuts are plated?
:
:Inquiring minds are curious.
After all the intervening dog poo from you and others, I am comning
around to the conclusion that I was right to begin with: there is NO
CREDIBLE evidence that Fram regularly sells defective or inferior oil
filters that cause engines to croak.
I rest my case, secure in thee knowledge that you probably don't even
realize your bluff has been called.
Will ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Before flaming, pause. I post to help rv'ers and annoy the snot
out of morons, idjits, fools and bozos - - and to irk their ilk.
Often, I do both at once.
Mark Jones
> "Mark Jones" <sp...@block.com> noticed that I wrote:
>
> >> The issue here is whether a blanket condemnation of a particular brand
> >> is justified by facts, or whether it's just another "FIrestone tires
> >> are crap" gossip job. My money is on the latter.
>
> Backpedaling furiously, he now writes:
Firestone tires were indeed defective. They are still
having tire problems on additional vehicle makes that
are using tires that were not part of the original Ford
recalls. Given that, I would have no problem putting
a set of four Firestone Firehawk tires on my Corvette.
Your only purpose on here is to be sarcastic towards others.
I wrote in several messages that I do not trust the cheap
filters. I pay more to get the extra margin of safety.
Just as many people buy a bigger truck than they really
need. They do it for the extra safety margin.
>
> >Let me put it to you real simple. I don't have a problem
> >with a particular company's filters except for the very
> >cheapest filters from any given company. I prefer a filter
> >that uses better parts than a company can afford to
> >use in a filter that only sells for 2 to 3 dollars.
> >
> >I do not feel that Fram or any company should be singled
> >out as having defective filters. I just prefer a little more
> >safety margin. Kind of like the 75% guideline for towing
> >capacity. I am willing to spend a few more dollars just
> >to minimize the possibility of an oil filter problem.
> >It might be a waste of money, or maybe it isn't. It is
> >hard to say for certain.
>
> Very nice and reasonable sensible admission - but an example of why I
> sometimes get a little testy. A few days back, you personally wrote
> this priceless prose about Fram filters:
>
> >You go right ahead using them if you want to save
> >a few bucks and place a very expensive motor at
> >risk.
>
> To which I retorted:
I stand behind that comment. I will not buy one of the
least expensive Fram filters as I want a better constructed
filter. If you don't want the extra margin of safety for
your vehicle, go right ahead buying cheap filters. I won't.
I do consider them an unnecessary risk.
>
> :I don't have a dog in this fight and could not possibly care
> :less who some racers think make lousy filters - but I'm curious:
> :is there ANY credible evidence that Fram regularly sells
> :defective or inferior oil filters that cause engines to croak?
> :How many sucessful lawsuits have been settled against them?
> :If any, how does that compare with Wix or whoever? Or is this
> :another rumor based on 4th hand opinions by the same dimbulbs
> :that "know" that all Firestones are no good, all mall pet shops
> :are evil, and all hardware store nuts are plated?
> :
> :Inquiring minds are curious.
>
> After all the intervening dog poo from you and others, I am comning
> around to the conclusion that I was right to begin with: there is NO
> CREDIBLE evidence that Fram regularly sells defective or inferior oil
> filters that cause engines to croak.
>
> I rest my case, secure in thee knowledge that you probably don't even
> realize your bluff has been called.
I do not believe that the cheapest Fram filters are
good filters, even if they may meet minimal requirements.
I do not choose to use the cheapest possible filter on
a very expensive motor as this is one risk that I do
not consider reasonable to take.
You can bitch and moan all you want and I will keep right
on _not_ buying these cheap filters. If you want to trust
that the cheap filters are good enough, then go right
ahead using them.
Jon Porter
>
> I do not feel that Fram or any company should be singled
> out as having defective filters. I just prefer a little more
> safety margin. Kind of like the 75% guideline for towing
> capacity. I am willing to spend a few more dollars just
> to minimize the possibility of an oil filter problem.
> It might be a waste of money, or maybe it isn't. It is
> hard to say for certain.
How do you know that the "high priced spread" is better than the cheaper
stuff? It's been proven in the world of beer that price does not accurately
reflect the quality of the brew. The same is true for many other products as
well.
It stirkes me as a poor way to judge quality; by how expensive the product
is.
bill horne
Me too, but we are frequently reminded in here that "you get what you
pay for". I don't hold to that flossify, but I envy the folk who do. All
of their buying decisions are easy - all they have to do is buy the most
expensive thing they can find, and they're done. They don't have to
screw around doing research, cost/benefit analyses, or looking for
sales.
Those same folk have got another edge on me, too - they don't ever just
"buy" stuff. They make "investments".
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
Will Sill
<sp...@block.com> inspiring prose:
>> I do not feel that Fram or any company should be singled
>> out as having defective filters. I just prefer a little more
>> safety margin. Kind of like the 75% guideline for towing
>> capacity. I am willing to spend a few more dollars just
>> to minimize the possibility of an oil filter problem.
>> It might be a waste of money, or maybe it isn't. It is
>> hard to say for certain.
And further punctures his paper-thin argument with:
>How do you know that the "high priced spread" is better than the cheaper
>stuff? It's been proven in the world of beer that price does not accurately
>reflect the quality of the brew. The same is true for many other products as
>well.
>
>It stirkes me as a poor way to judge quality; by how expensive the product
>is.
To show that education is not entirely lost on him, Mark is changing
his POV daily. A couple of days ago, Fram filters were junk. When
asked for credible evidence, he dodged and backpedaled to "Higher
Price = Better Product". Next thing you know, he might look for
evidence before drawing sweeping conclusion based on myths. Stand by
for a position change. Maybe even an oil filter change.
Will Sill
Mark Jones
> To show that education is not entirely lost on him, Mark is changing
> his POV daily. A couple of days ago, Fram filters were junk. When
> asked for credible evidence, he dodged and backpedaled to "Higher
> Price = Better Product". Next thing you know, he might look for
> evidence before drawing sweeping conclusion based on myths. Stand by
> for a position change. Maybe even an oil filter change.
PLONK
Marc
doubt that FRAN would still be in business if they sold crappy defective
filters. Personally - I have had more trouble with STP oil filters ( missing
gaskets, pourous cans).
The most important thing is to have the oil changed regularly, along with
not abusing the engine, allowing the oil to reach proper operating temperature.
And as far as Firestone tires - have a set HT's on my pickup - over 55,000
miles & still counting without a single problem or flat :) THe longest lasting
set of tires I ever had.
Lon VanOstran
<sp...@block.com> writes:
Sometimes, the truth is painful. Keep seeking it anyway.
Lon
RAM^3
news:50ff4fd6.0305...@posting.google.com:
> If you need convincing, call Fram on their 800 number.
>
You would _actually_ believe a _vendor_ to tell you that one (or more) of
their aftermarket products didn't meet OEM specifications?
I am _truly_ amazed!
Tom
> On Wed, 14 May 2003 22:03:59 GMT, Will Sill <wi...@epix.net> wrote:
>
> >Assuming good faith on your part, does that satisfy YOU that Fram
> >makes junk filters?
>
> <sigh>
>
> No, nor did I ever say that they did. One more time - the TSB
> referenced says that the manufacturer may refuse to honor a warranty
> claim if non-recommended filters are used. No more, no less. It says
> nothing, and I say nothing, about the merits of Fram filters. However,
> since Fram filters are *not* on the list, one may reasonably conclude
> that IF the manufacturer determines that the engine was damaged as a
> result of the filter, they may refuse to honor the warranty. On the
> other hand, if you use a recommended filter, and the manufacturer
> determines that the filter damaged the engine, they *will* honor the
> warranty. That's what it means. No more and no less.
A manufacturer cannot refuse a warranty claim simply because you did
not use a filter on their list. They can refuse the claim if, and only
if, the filter used does not meet their spec. The "A" version of the
Fram filter does meet their spec and the manufacturer would have to
honor a warranty claim. The only exception is if the filter itself was
defective. In this case the filter manufacturer should pay to repair
the damaged caused by their defective filter. I believe that this is
the law.
Alan Balmer
Did you read the TSB?
Tom
I never said that. I said that if you care, you could call Fram about
the specific allegations of flawed construction, made by the hacksaw
people. You could then decide for your self.
What amazes me, are the number of people that believe that the
ownership of a hacksaw makes someone an oil filter expert.
Tom
Tom
Have you read the the law?
Alan Balmer
>> >A manufacturer cannot refuse a warranty claim simply because you did
>> >not use a filter on their list. They can refuse the claim if, and only
>> >if, the filter used does not meet their spec. The "A" version of the
>> >Fram filter does meet their spec and the manufacturer would have to
>> >honor a warranty claim. The only exception is if the filter itself was
>> >defective. In this case the filter manufacturer should pay to repair
>> >the damaged caused by their defective filter. I believe that this is
>> >the law.
>> Did you read the TSB?
>
>Have you read the the law?
I gave a reference to the TSB. Do you have a reference to the law?