Affordable gliders
Richard Larsen
The reason the so called loosers of the
world class are so popular in the US is
they have been available for 3 years and
the PW-5 is just starting to become
available.
When I said the SZD48 at $29,000 US was
an affordable high performance glider
I was comparing it to the $50,000 to
$100,000 US gliders like the Discus,
Ventus, LS-6, LS-7, ASW-24, ASW27, etc.
The only disadvantage I know of for the
SZD48 is weight. I think it is around
600 pounds.
Personally I bought an L-33 (Blanik) because
it weighs 475 pounds, is made of aluminum
so can be parked outside without disassembling,
re assembling for every flight. The price was
around $23,000, it was available, and is
probably a good transition glider. In a few
years I may be ready for a higher performance
glider. At that time the SZD48 may be a good
choice if the price doesn't go up to much.
The L-33 had been around for two years
when I bought one. So it had a good track
record. New designs may have flaws so I
prefer to wait a few years for the
manufactured to shake out the bugs.
If you really want an AFFORDABLE glider
try the PW-2 Gapa for around $10,000 US.
Open cockpit, wind in your face, LD =
18:1 takes a real pilot to fly cross
country.
Bert Willing
rla...@bnr.ca (Richard Larsen) wrote:
>
>If you really want an AFFORDABLE glider
>try the PW-2 Gapa for around $10,000 US.
>Open cockpit, wind in your face, LD =
>18:1 takes a real pilot to fly cross
>country.
>
I had the chance to fly a GAPA just an hour after I had landed with a 29
meter ship. Great fun! Very affordable ... but nothing to do with
soaring.
I Johnston
Richard Larsen (rla...@bnr.ca) wrote:
: If you really want an AFFORDABLE glider
: try the PW-2 Gapa for around $10,000 US.
: Open cockpit, wind in your face, LD =
: 18:1 takes a real pilot to fly cross
: country.
Can you give any more details of this? I've heard of a Lak-<some low
number> which is essentially a modern primary. Is it any relation?
Ian
B Lacovara
If you really want an AFFORDABLE glider
: try the PW-2 Gapa for around $10,000 US.
: Open cockpit, wind in your face, LD =
: 18:1 takes a real pilot to fly cross
: country.
We have a PW-2 Gapa at Philadelphia Glider Council. It is fun to fly, in
fact a real hoot off the winch, but it is not a serious sailplane. At 18:1
and with a very low wing loading it is very difficult to get away from the
field. The Gapa is fun, but dollar for dollar an SGS 1-26 is a real glider
with x-country capability @ $6,000 -$10,000.
Bob Lacovara "2BT"
John G Wright
In article <4nct2d$5...@info.epfl.ch>,
Bert Willing <Bert.W...@lc.dmx.epfl.ch> wrote:
>rla...@bnr.ca (Richard Larsen) wrote:
>>
>>If you really want an AFFORDABLE glider
>>try the PW-2 Gapa for around $10,000 US.
>>Open cockpit, wind in your face, LD =
>>18:1 takes a real pilot to fly cross
>>country.
>>
>
>I had the chance to fly a GAPA just an hour after I had landed with a 29
>meter ship. Great fun! Very affordable ... but nothing to do with
>soaring.
>
>
If you are willing to spend $10,000 to own 100% of a glider that flies at
18:1, why not own 50% of a $20,000 glider that flies at or about 36:1? You'll
get a hell of a lot further and stay up a hell of a lot longer, for the same
investment. Why buy a whole glider? Do you intend to fly it every day? If
not, why not share a much better glider with a partner???
The same idea goes for those who say the PW5 World Class is the way to make
gliding affordable. If you can afford to buy a whole one of these, you would
be better off investing the money in a share in a better glider.
Admittedly you will have trouble finding one at twice the price with twice
the performance ;-), but you can find many with 125 - 140% of the performance
in that 2 x price range. Why do so many American posters seem to talk of
buying a whole glider rather than a part share in one?? Don't you trust each
other?
John G Wright
Christophe Blanchi
I Johnston wrote:
>
> Richard Larsen (rla...@bnr.ca) wrote:
>
> : If you really want an AFFORDABLE glider
> : try the PW-2 Gapa for around $10,000 US.
> : Open cockpit, wind in your face, LD =
> : 18:1 takes a real pilot to fly cross
> : country.
>
> number> which is essentially a modern primary. Is it any relation?
>
> Ian
No, there is no relation between the Lak 12 and the PW-2 Gapa other
that the fact that they are both a blast to fly.
The Gapa is made in Poland while the Lak is made in Lithuania.
The Lak 12 is not a primary but a 48-50:1 open class ship.
The Lak 12 is more expensive than the Gapa but at $30000 new it
is by far the cheapest high performance glider one can buy.
Christophe
Lak-12 "A2", Std Cirrus "AI"
Rich Carr
John G Wright (john....@midkent.ac.uk) wrote:
: If you are willing to spend $10,000 to own 100% of a glider that flies at
: 18:1, why not own 50% of a $20,000 glider that flies at or about 36:1? You'll
: get a hell of a lot further and stay up a hell of a lot longer, for the same
: investment. Why buy a whole glider? Do you intend to fly it every day? If
: not, why not share a much better glider with a partner???
Performance doesn't scale well with cost, and anyway enjoyment isn't
strictly a function of L/D. Actually, if the PW-2 is not too useful
for soaring, I'd go with the $20,000 36:1 glider myself (and I have!).
But the Carbon Dragon, for example, is probably pretty close to the
$10,000 18:1 glider, and I'd love to have as much fun as Gary Osoba's
been having in one.
As far as owning a whole glider is concerned, you're right, it doesn't
make sense. But if soaring is supposed to make sense, I'm missing
something. There are a lot of intangibles associated with doing what
you like with your own glider.
: The same idea goes for those who say the PW5 World Class is the way to make
: gliding affordable. If you can afford to buy a whole one of these, you would
: be better off investing the money in a share in a better glider.
: Admittedly you will have trouble finding one at twice the price with twice
: the performance ;-), but you can find many with 125 - 140% of the performance
: in that 2 x price range. Why do so many American posters seem to talk of
: buying a whole glider rather than a part share in one?? Don't you trust each
: other?
As long as we're pigeonholing entire groups of people, why is it that so
much criticism of the PW-5 comes from people who have nothing to lose
if the PW-5 succeeds?
- Rich Carr
... with regrets for engaging in net-style debate.
Bill King
John G Wright wrote:
<snip>
> >
> >
>
> If you are willing to spend $10,000 to own 100% of a glider that flies at
> 18:1, why not own 50% of a $20,000 glider that flies at or about 36:1? You'll
> get a hell of a lot further and stay up a hell of a lot longer, for the same
> investment. Why buy a whole glider? Do you intend to fly it every day? If
> not, why not share a much better glider with a partner???
>
> gliding affordable. If you can afford to buy a whole one of these, you would
> be better off investing the money in a share in a better glider.
> Admittedly you will have trouble finding one at twice the price with twice
> the performance ;-), but you can find many with 125 - 140% of the performance
> in that 2 x price range. Why do so many American posters seem to talk of
> buying a whole glider rather than a part share in one?? Don't you trust each
> other?
>
You might as well share your car and your wife with the way you think. I own my
glider in whole not part. I can fly it when I want to and not have to worry about it
when it is someone elses weekend.
A story of sorts:
One pilot said to another pilot one day after seeing that the first pilot had just
received his new glider. "Can I take you ship up"? The owner said " You might
as well ask to have sex with my wife, you stand a better chance".
Bill King
N201J (L33 Solo "WF")
F L Whiteley
In article <4nq6u9$4...@fort.midkent.ac.uk>, John G Wright (john....@midkent.ac.uk) writes:
>In article <4nct2d$5...@info.epfl.ch>,
> Bert Willing <Bert.W...@lc.dmx.epfl.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>If you really want an AFFORDABLE glider
>>>try the PW-2 Gapa for around $10,000 US.
>>>Open cockpit, wind in your face, LD =
>>>18:1 takes a real pilot to fly cross
>>>country.
>>>
>>
>>I had the chance to fly a GAPA just an hour after I had landed with a 29
>>meter ship. Great fun! Very affordable ... but nothing to do with
>>soaring.
>>
>>
>
>18:1, why not own 50% of a $20,000 glider that flies at or about 36:1? You'll
>get a hell of a lot further and stay up a hell of a lot longer, for the same
>investment. Why buy a whole glider? Do you intend to fly it every day? If
>not, why not share a much better glider with a partner???
>
>The same idea goes for those who say the PW5 World Class is the way to make
>gliding affordable. If you can afford to buy a whole one of these, you would
>be better off investing the money in a share in a better glider.
>Admittedly you will have trouble finding one at twice the price with twice
>the performance ;-), but you can find many with 125 - 140% of the performance
>in that 2 x price range. Why do so many American posters seem to talk of
>buying a whole glider rather than a part share in one?? Don't you trust each
>other?
>
>John G Wright
>
US Yanks trust each other, but our culture still retains some
'rugged individualism'. We are also quite transient with frequent
job relocations which put a strain on partnerships or the
perceived risk of being stuck with an unuseable share. At one time,
it was reckoned that 20% of US citizens made work related
relocations every five years. That's quite a lot.
In the UK, one could be in a syndicate, be transferred across the
country, and still be a member. Here, that's nearly impossible.
We do have one club member(airline pilot), that lives in Dallas,
but soars in Colorado. I don't believe he has a partner in his
ship.
I've had a most satisfactory US partnership, and there are a few at
our club. The benefits of having glider partners are obvious to
anyone who's been in the UK, but aren't so well defined here. I'd
like a couple of partners in my glider, but I'm still getting to
know the club members. If I someday gain these members, then I'll
go shopping for another ship. It's always nice to have a spare.
Heard spring's on holiday in the UK, perhaps summer's just around
the corner. Get back to work on the exam.
Francis
--
7 days to SSA Region 9 Contest, Owl Canyon, CO Contest details
'http://www.csn.net/~rjc/region9.html'
J. Peter Aarnaes
John Wright asks why so many Americans insist on buying a whole glider rather than
sharing...
I recently single handedly purchased a Standard Cirrus after discovering the
following about partners. They:
1) Often go off on their own in their glider purchases after a bit of research.
2) Often have similar flying requirements... Necesitating careful *sharing* of an
inherently non-sharable resource.
I simply came to the conclusion that with the limited time and patience I have, I am
far better off purchasing and maintaining and flying my own glider.
Perhaps this is a uniquely *American* trait - The frontier/pioneer spirit and all
that :)
Doug Haluza
On May 20, 1996 14:25:45 in article <Re: Affordable gliders>, 'Bill King
>> not, why not share a much better glider with a partner???
>> buying a whole glider rather than a part share in one?? Don't you trust
>> each other?
>>
>> John G Wright
>
own
>my
>glider in whole not part. I can fly it when I want to and not have to
worry
>about it when it is someone elses weekend.
>Bill King
>N201J (L33 Solo "WF")
I just bought a Janus C with a partner. For what it would have cost me for
a PIK-20, I got half of a better ship. Now I can run with the more
expensive single place ships, and have twice as much fun! No worries about
who's weekend it is--if we both want to fly we can!
I wanted a partnership because I can't fly every day. I have 4 weeks
vacation to do serious flying and family stuff too. That leaves a lot of
time for the glider to sit on the ground, or be flown by a partner. It also
means you only have to do half as much work, and owning a glider is a lot
of work. Oh yes, and the annual expenses are half too....
We have considered adding a third partner, but this is a difficult choice.
It means twice as many problems with the "other partners" and only 1/3 less
expenses. So the math doesn't really work out.
The main thing to remember is that a partnership is a business. You have to
be willing to dissolve it if things don't work out. This means you can't
get as emotionally attached to the ship. This is where many partnerships
get into trouble, I think.
Doug Haluza
1/2 Janus C "8G"
Jeffry Stetson
In article <7...@greeley.win.net>, whit...@greeley.win.net says...
>
>US Yanks trust each other, but our culture still retains some
>'rugged individualism'. We are also quite transient with frequent
>job relocations which put a strain on partnerships or the
>perceived risk of being stuck with an unuseable share. At one time,
>it was reckoned that 20% of US citizens made work related
>relocations every five years. That's quite a lot.
Agreed. I've taken quite a loss by having to sell out due to a
move.
There's also the famous "sue everybody" legal system. In a
partnership arrangement, the partners are all personally
liable for any suits rising from an incident with the jointly
owned property. One can incorporate, but that is often expensive
and entails a paperwork burden.
>
>In the UK, one could be in a syndicate, be transferred across the
>country, and still be a member. Here, that's nearly impossible.
>We do have one club member(airline pilot), that lives in Dallas,
>but soars in Colorado. I don't believe he has a partner in his
>ship.
>
Hmmm, I think this airline pilot is also a member of Wabash Valley
Soaring in southern Illinois! I helps to have free transportation!
--
Jeffry Stetson ... Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane
EAA, SSA, AOPA, IAC, MAPA
incorporated: Mooney M20E "Superduper 21"
solo: Salto H-101 "Shiva - The Cosmic Dancer"
Michael C. Steckner
>If you are willing to spend $10,000 to own 100% of a glider that flies at
>18:1, why not own 50% of a $20,000 glider that flies at or about 36:1? You'll
>get a hell of a lot further and stay up a hell of a lot longer, for the same
Perhaps it is different in Europe, but over here in the USA, the
job market is highly fluid and people change careers/jobs rather
frequently. Often these changes require relocation to a new city.
Consequently it is easier to move your "own" glider rather than
try and negotiate with a partner for a buyout, or sell to a new
part owner that is acceptable to the other partner.
Syndicate ownership certainly has the benefits you mention. (How
about four people owning an ASH25 or other super two seater?)
Unfortunately (fortunately?) the socio-economic climate on this
side of the pond are a little different.
M
I Johnston
Christophe Blanchi (cbla...@cnri.reston.va.us) wrote:
: I Johnston wrote:
: > Can you give any more details of this? I've heard of a Lak-<some low
: > number> which is essentially a modern primary. Is it any relation?
: No, there is no relation between the Lak 12 and the PW-2 Gapa other
: that the fact that they are both a blast to fly.
: The Gapa is made in Poland while the Lak is made in Lithuania.
: The Lak 12 is not a primary but a 48-50:1 open class ship.
I know, I know. Perhaps I should have said Lak-<some number lower than
12>. Lak-6, perhaps? As I got the information, it's available only as a
kit.
Ian
JNBearden
Regarding our American "rugged individualism" and "frontier spirit" which
inhibits us from sharing an "inherently unsharable resource [i.e., a
sailplane]," I must disagree. Ego, maybe (we don't like to admit to our
friends that the beauty on the flight line is only half ours). Laziness,
certainly (100% access is convenient). But frontier spirit hardly prevents
us from eagerly joining all sorts of clubs (with non-refundable initiation
fees) and making much larger investments (i.e., houses) even when we know
we may be moving within a few years, and not always for good financial
reasons (do a rent vs. buy analysis based on today's housing market and
near-term projections). And most of us don't relocate all that often (at
least not out of the area).
The current anti-partnership sentiment in this country is a product of the
rugged me-first attitudes of the past decade, I believe, aggravated by
waning knowledge of how to put a multi-owner glider group together
properly. When I was growing up in soaring (mid 60s), most gliders were
owned by more than one person, at least in our club, even the competition
ships. Now people seem much less willing to share. They would prefer to
own 100rforming ship rather than 50% or 33% of a much better performing
glider, even though their annual time in cockpit is 20 to 50 hours or so.
We can try to justify it with talk about frequent relocations, vast
distances, etc., but I think it's more a matter of attitudes. Sharing is a
little harder (e.g., scheduling), but the payback is enormous if you're on
a budget. And most of us are.
Regarding the ownership structure, forming a corporation to buy the glider
shields the "partners" (actually shareholders) to a great extent from
legal liability owing to the actions of one of their group. Yes, it's
possible to "pierce the corporate veil" but it's difficult. And contrary
to popular belief, it's neither difficult nor expensive to form your own
corporation. Most states have offices set up to help do-it-yourself
filers, at least for for-profit corporations. Non-profits are a little
different but as long as you're not trying to operate a business as a
tax-exempt entity it's not complicated. Most clubs have a lawyer as a
member. Or contact someone at Caesar Creek Soaring Club where I started
flying; some of the syndicate-owned 1-26s there are owned by corporations.
Selling a 1/4 share of a well-maintained sailplane can actually be easier
(being affordable to vastly more pilots) than selling the whole thing if
you're flying in a club where members are constantly moving up the ladder
and multi-owner gliders are an accepted part of soaring.
When I sold my LS-3 a few years ago, I received approximately 75 calls,
most from aspiring first-time owners. Most wanted an LS-4 or an ASW-20 for
the high $20,000 range. I usually ended up chatting for 30 to 45 minutes
about the pros and cons of various used sailplanes and in the process
queried these people about getting a partner so they could buy a more
expensive ship. With a few exceptions, the reaction was--as one writer
spoke of--comparable to that of a husband asked by a stranger for his
wife's sexual favors. The analogy is ludicrous to me (I've been married
for 10 years but a rabid soaring pilot for over 30) but there is a grain
of truth to it: partnership is in some ways like a marriage. Finding the
right partner can be difficult and maintaining the relationship takes some
work, but the rewards can be significant. My father's long-time partner
flew only on Sundays and had no interest in competition; we were usually
at church on Sundays and otherwise flew Saturdays and all the contests we
wanted. Like marriage, selecting a pilot who's very much like you can be a
mistake: competition nuts need a more casual flyer who wants access to a
hot ship but not all the responsibilities, and vice versa.
Soaring is expensive, but there are ways to make it far more affordable if
we put a little more effort into it. Speaking with my SSA Director's hat
on, it hardly serves our purpose to denigrate or belittle the concept of
multi-owner gliders. We should be encouraging it so as to open up access
to soaring for more people and increase the size of our sport. This will
make it more economical and fun for all of us and make us a more
formidable power in the continuing dealings with mis-guided or unfriendly
legislation and bureaucracy.
Chip Bearden
ASW-24 "JB"
7122...@compuserve.com
Paul Tyler
.
>You might as well share your car and your wife with the way you think. I own my
>glider in whole not part. I can fly it when I want to and not have to worry about it
>when it is someone elses weekend.
Top plan. I already have a one third share in a glider and it works very
well. I don't care for the car thing but the other bit sounds interesting.
Anyhow, if you own your glider outright I don't see how you have time for a
car and a woman as well.
Paul Tyler
Australia
Phone +61 8 259 6294
_______
_______________ | _______________
( )
David S Habercom
John G Wright wrote:
>...
> The same idea goes for those who say the PW5 World Class is the way to make
> gliding affordable. If you can afford to buy a whole one of these, you would
> be better off investing the money in a share in a better glider.
In fact, I have a partner in my PW-5. Partly to save money but mostly to share the
fun. Even with two of us, it will stay in the box more than half the time.
David Habercom
President
World Class Soaring Association
Michael Steckner
john....@midkent.ac.uk (John G Wright) wrote:
>In article <4nct2d$5...@info.epfl.ch>,
> Bert Willing <Bert.W...@lc.dmx.epfl.ch> wrote:
>>rla...@bnr.ca (Richard Larsen) wrote:
>>>
>>>If you really want an AFFORDABLE glider
>>>try the PW-2 Gapa for around $10,000 US.
>>>Open cockpit, wind in your face, LD =
>>>18:1 takes a real pilot to fly cross
>>>country.
>>>
>>Yeah,
>>
>>I had the chance to fly a GAPA just an hour after I had landed with a 29
>>meter ship. Great fun! Very affordable ... but nothing to do with
>>soaring.
>>
>>
>If you are willing to spend $10,000 to own 100% of a glider that flies at
>18:1, why not own 50% of a $20,000 glider that flies at or about 36:1? You'll
>get a hell of a lot further and stay up a hell of a lot longer, for the same
>investment. Why buy a whole glider? Do you intend to fly it every day? If
>not, why not share a much better glider with a partner???
>The same idea goes for those who say the PW5 World Class is the way to make
>gliding affordable. If you can afford to buy a whole one of these, you would
>be better off investing the money in a share in a better glider.
>Admittedly you will have trouble finding one at twice the price with twice
>the performance ;-), but you can find many with 125 - 140% of the performance
>in that 2 x price range. Why do so many American posters seem to talk of
>buying a whole glider rather than a part share in one?? Don't you trust each
>other?
>John G Wright
Perhaps it is different in Europe, but over here in the USA, the
Rory Stenerson
I would like to thank Mr. Beardon for his encouraging comments.
I am a student glider pilot at the SSA B badge level who has the
priveledge to fly out of a very hot site, Keystone Gliderport in
Central PA. I'm spoiled by being able to do all of my trining in
Grob 103s, but I am contantly surrounded with excellent ships
from all over the world. My wife is a little leary of flying so
it's hard to justify a large expense for just "one of my many
hobbies." Thank you for putting hope back into the sport for us
non-doctors, lawyers, or investment bankers.
Rory Stenerson
--
Rory Stenerson,
SSA Member