killer app idea
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mdipierro
Jul 18, 2009, 7:49:20 PM7/18/09
to web2py-users
Another killer app I would like to see it this:
A p2p news app.
Imagine installing web2py and an app that allows you to select
keywords of interest. the app connect to other apps of the same tipe
via xmlrpc fetches recent news items that match your interests and
serves them locally. You can block individual news and/or post more
news. Visitors can comment and vote. Comments stay local but upvotes/
downvotes affect propagation of the news. The layout could be
customizable.
I am very concerned about governments censoring information. This
system would create a worldwide news network without a central point
of failure. A particular item propagates as long as the readers find
it interesting.
Technically it is not so difficult to implement.
Any taker?
Massimo
A p2p news app.
Imagine installing web2py and an app that allows you to select
keywords of interest. the app connect to other apps of the same tipe
via xmlrpc fetches recent news items that match your interests and
serves them locally. You can block individual news and/or post more
news. Visitors can comment and vote. Comments stay local but upvotes/
downvotes affect propagation of the news. The layout could be
customizable.
I am very concerned about governments censoring information. This
system would create a worldwide news network without a central point
of failure. A particular item propagates as long as the readers find
it interesting.
Technically it is not so difficult to implement.
Any taker?
Massimo
Fran
Jul 19, 2009, 5:27:49 AM7/19/09
to web2py-users
I see this very clearly with the current news on the Iranian post-
election fallout:
* News items pop up in all sorts of places (Traditional Broadcasters/
Blogs/Facebook/Twitter)
* These get forwarded through all these diverse media again
(including being shared in Google Reader)
I rather like this heterogeneous system as it provides for diverse
routing.
The main issue with censorship here is the Nokia-Siemens DPI which
needs to be avoided using tools like ToR or Haystack.
To get the p2p app to work effectively, many people would need to take
it up.
Again, the diverse interlinked routes we have already seem like less
of an uphill struggle...
F
mdipierro
Jul 19, 2009, 5:39:14 AM7/19/09
to web2py-users
On Jul 19, 4:27 am, Fran <francisb...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 19, 12:49 am, mdipierro <mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> > Another killer app I would like to see it this:
> > A p2p news app.
> > Imagine installing web2py and an app that allows you to select
> > keywords of interest. the app connect to other apps of the same tipe
> > via xmlrpc fetches recent news items that match your interests and
> > serves them locally. You can block individual news and/or post more
> > news. Visitors can comment and vote. Comments stay local but upvotes/
> > downvotes affect propagation of the news. The layout could be
> > customizable.
> > I am very concerned about governments censoring information. This
> > system would create a worldwide news network without a central point
> > of failure. A particular item propagates as long as the readers find
> > it interesting.
>
> Isn't this basically what social networks do already?
handles the twits. It is centralized. It worked in the case of Iranian
elections because it happens that that server is not in Iran.
I am talking a real p2p network for news. To my knwoledge there is no
such a thing.
Massimo
Yarko Tymciurak
Jul 19, 2009, 6:31:42 AM7/19/09
to web...@googlegroups.com
On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 4:39 AM, mdipierro <mdip...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
No. Think of twitter. There is a server somewhere at twitter.com that
On Jul 19, 4:27 am, Fran <francisb...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 19, 12:49 am, mdipierro <mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> > Another killer app I would like to see it this:
> > A p2p news app.
> > Imagine installing web2py and an app that allows you to select
> > keywords of interest. the app connect to other apps of the same tipe
> > via xmlrpc fetches recent news items that match your interests and
> > serves them locally. You can block individual news and/or post more
> > news. Visitors can comment and vote. Comments stay local but upvotes/
> > downvotes affect propagation of the news. The layout could be
> > customizable.
> > I am very concerned about governments censoring information. This
> > system would create a worldwide news network without a central point
> > of failure. A particular item propagates as long as the readers find
> > it interesting.
>
> Isn't this basically what social networks do already?
handles the twits. It is centralized. It worked in the case of Iranian
elections because it happens that that server is not in Iran.
I am talking a real p2p network for news. To my knwoledge there is no
such a thing.
...more to the point - to forward commits / changes in the LACK of a network...
Think about cell phones only passing a baton, where that cloud provides persistence...
This is consistent w/ some WHO efforts also for forwarding blood tests thru SMS and results back "in the bush"....
In general, this is insteresting beyond the application Massimo set out.
Fran
Jul 19, 2009, 9:21:29 AM7/19/09
to web2py-users
On Jul 19, 11:31 am, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...more to the point - to forward commits / changes in the LACK of a
> network...
> Think about cell phones only passing a baton, where that cloud provides
> persistence...
> This is consistent w/ some WHO efforts also for forwarding blood tests thru
> SMS and results back "in the bush"....
> In general, this is insteresting beyond the application Massimo set out.
Ah, now *this* is stuff that I'm very interested in.
> ...more to the point - to forward commits / changes in the LACK of a
> network...
> Think about cell phones only passing a baton, where that cloud provides
> persistence...
> This is consistent w/ some WHO efforts also for forwarding blood tests thru
> SMS and results back "in the bush"....
> In general, this is insteresting beyond the application Massimo set out.
In fact I'm currently mentoring 2 GSoC projects in this area which are
based on Web2Py:
* P2P sync using ZeroConf: http://socghop.appspot.com/student_project/show/google/gsoc2009/sahana/t124024756832
* SMS Transport: http://socghop.appspot.com/student_project/show/google/gsoc2009/sahana/t124024755829
F
weheh
Jul 19, 2009, 4:13:54 PM7/19/09
to web2py-users
I know nothing of P2P apps. But I very much like the subversive nature
of this thread :) especially as it applies to negating efforts by
governments to block the dissemination of information. As W. Gibson
says, "All technology can be put to both positive and negative uses,"
or some such. So subversives of free societies could also use this app
to attack free societies and seed disinformation (a kind of denial-of-
service attack). Nevertheless, it sounds like a worthy idea to me.
Given recent well-publicised efforts to block certain websites, such
as Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc., it seems to me like a responsible
way to counterattack such efforts at repression.
of this thread :) especially as it applies to negating efforts by
governments to block the dissemination of information. As W. Gibson
says, "All technology can be put to both positive and negative uses,"
or some such. So subversives of free societies could also use this app
to attack free societies and seed disinformation (a kind of denial-of-
service attack). Nevertheless, it sounds like a worthy idea to me.
Given recent well-publicised efforts to block certain websites, such
as Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc., it seems to me like a responsible
way to counterattack such efforts at repression.
Peterle
Jul 19, 2009, 5:06:27 PM7/19/09
to web2py-users
The thing you are speaking about, is on the same direction of
RoseBox, a project that has been developed for many years, as an
hardware p2p solution based on opendsd + tor etc..., and today is
developed by "Agorà digitale", a community of activists of the italian
radical party. See here:
http://www.radioradicale.it/scheda/282333/assemblea-costitutiva-del-comitato-promotore-dellassociazione-radicale-per-la-democrazia-e-le-liberta-digi#int2363000
(giacomo cariello ed emmanuele somma in particular). Imagine Maybe
web2py embedded in RoseBox...
------------------------------------
RoseBox, a project that has been developed for many years, as an
hardware p2p solution based on opendsd + tor etc..., and today is
developed by "Agorà digitale", a community of activists of the italian
radical party. See here:
http://www.radioradicale.it/scheda/282333/assemblea-costitutiva-del-comitato-promotore-dellassociazione-radicale-per-la-democrazia-e-le-liberta-digi#int2363000
(giacomo cariello ed emmanuele somma in particular). Imagine Maybe
web2py embedded in RoseBox...
------------------------------------
Francisco Gama
Jul 19, 2009, 5:10:41 PM7/19/09
to web2py-users
Talking about this subject it's useful to make clear what are we
trying to protect.
There are 3 different layers that can be distributed/centralized:
1) layer of contents -> what and where is/are the source(s) of
information? Is it restricted to a company? is it public so that
people can colaborate with each other?
2) layer of infrastructure -> what and where is the engine that
supports the layer of contents? is it in one place? Is it in multiple
places? Is it based on cloud computing?
3) layer of domain -> who is in charge? What organization has
ownership and control of the layer of infrastructure? What rules and
restrictions does that organization to comply (e.g.: national)?
There are indeed many projects that work layer 1). The marketing guys
(and not only) like to talk these apps web 2.0.
When it comes to the layer 2) we are seeing a big movement towards
technologies that support web applications (and not only) in a
distributed way by many of the main players such as Facebook (with
cloud computing).
Still, even Facebook has been blocked intermittently in several
countries including Syria, China and Iran, although Iran later
unblocked Facebook in 2009. (quoted from Wikipedia)
That is the limit that, I believe, Massimo is referring to. We can't
write a software that changes governments that try to control the news
but you can write a software that makes "impossible" for any
government to control the news by not being based on the traditional
controlling mechanisms (such as IP routes).
There is a project called Netsukuku from an italian hacker in Python
btw, that probably goes even beyond your idea.
References:
http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/
http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/2html/documentation/main_documentation/qspn.pdf
http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/2html/documentation/main_documentation/topology.pdf
http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/2html/documentation/main_documentation/ntk_rfc/Ntk_p2p_over_ntk.pdf
Best Regards
trying to protect.
There are 3 different layers that can be distributed/centralized:
1) layer of contents -> what and where is/are the source(s) of
information? Is it restricted to a company? is it public so that
people can colaborate with each other?
2) layer of infrastructure -> what and where is the engine that
supports the layer of contents? is it in one place? Is it in multiple
places? Is it based on cloud computing?
3) layer of domain -> who is in charge? What organization has
ownership and control of the layer of infrastructure? What rules and
restrictions does that organization to comply (e.g.: national)?
There are indeed many projects that work layer 1). The marketing guys
(and not only) like to talk these apps web 2.0.
When it comes to the layer 2) we are seeing a big movement towards
technologies that support web applications (and not only) in a
distributed way by many of the main players such as Facebook (with
cloud computing).
Still, even Facebook has been blocked intermittently in several
countries including Syria, China and Iran, although Iran later
unblocked Facebook in 2009. (quoted from Wikipedia)
That is the limit that, I believe, Massimo is referring to. We can't
write a software that changes governments that try to control the news
but you can write a software that makes "impossible" for any
government to control the news by not being based on the traditional
controlling mechanisms (such as IP routes).
There is a project called Netsukuku from an italian hacker in Python
btw, that probably goes even beyond your idea.
References:
http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/
http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/2html/documentation/main_documentation/qspn.pdf
http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/2html/documentation/main_documentation/topology.pdf
http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/2html/documentation/main_documentation/ntk_rfc/Ntk_p2p_over_ntk.pdf
Best Regards
weheh
Jul 19, 2009, 10:55:42 PM7/19/09
to web2py-users
I would think that anonymity is key so that it's impossible to tell
who uploaded a packet of information. Consequently, an IP addr
associated with a packet of info should be irrelevant as the same info
would be widely replicated across the net.
who uploaded a packet of information. Consequently, an IP addr
associated with a packet of info should be irrelevant as the same info
would be widely replicated across the net.
Bottiger
Jul 19, 2009, 10:58:21 PM7/19/09
to web2py-users
This sounds very similar to RSS feeds and aggregators. It uses http/
rpc to fetch news items and you can optionally mirror them on your
server. You can then filter them with keywords.
There are problems with this with regards to censorship.
1. XML is unencrypted. And easy to use deep packet inspection on
(which I have learned participating in the Iran proxies).
2. HTTP is easily blocked on a port.
3. It is easy for an organization to block access to the servers you
are accessing. There is no distributed connection feature.
Basically you would be reimplementing Freenet with RSS feeds.
rpc to fetch news items and you can optionally mirror them on your
server. You can then filter them with keywords.
There are problems with this with regards to censorship.
1. XML is unencrypted. And easy to use deep packet inspection on
(which I have learned participating in the Iran proxies).
2. HTTP is easily blocked on a port.
3. It is easy for an organization to block access to the servers you
are accessing. There is no distributed connection feature.
Basically you would be reimplementing Freenet with RSS feeds.
Hasanat Kazmi
Jul 20, 2009, 1:56:04 AM7/20/09
to web2py-users
On Jul 19, 6:21 pm, Fran <francisb...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 19, 11:31 am, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ...more to the point - to forward commits / changes in the LACK of a
> > network...
> > Think about cell phones only passing a baton, where that cloud provides
> > persistence...
> > This is consistent w/ some WHO efforts also for forwarding blood tests thru
> > SMS and results back "in the bush"....
> > In general, this is insteresting beyond the application Massimo set out.
>
> Ah, now *this* is stuff that I'm very interested in.
> In fact I'm currently mentoring 2 GSoC projects in this area which are
> based on Web2Py:
> * SMS Transport:http://socghop.appspot.com/student_project/show/google/gsoc2009/sahan...
>
> F
Don't you think using Tor solves these problems?
Yarko Tymciurak
Jul 20, 2009, 2:38:23 AM7/20/09
to web...@googlegroups.com
Don't you think using Tor solves these problems?
Interesting - thanks for bringing this up; I (personally) had not been aware of the Tor project before...
JohnMc
Jul 20, 2009, 4:03:17 PM7/20/09
to web2py-users
Massimo,
Hmm. Latest version of Google Reader does what you suggest. I also
think I seen a subset as a Yahoo Pipes filter.
But the creation side as a news syndicate as a P2P is an intriguing
idea. I would even suggest getting money grubby with such an idea for
the simple fact that there are unaffiliated news stringers all over
the planet that would love to find a outlet for their video/articles.
Novel idea and commendable. Considering that US news is cratering we
are headed this way regardless.
JohnMc
Hmm. Latest version of Google Reader does what you suggest. I also
think I seen a subset as a Yahoo Pipes filter.
But the creation side as a news syndicate as a P2P is an intriguing
idea. I would even suggest getting money grubby with such an idea for
the simple fact that there are unaffiliated news stringers all over
the planet that would love to find a outlet for their video/articles.
Novel idea and commendable. Considering that US news is cratering we
are headed this way regardless.
JohnMc
Yarko Tymciurak
Jul 20, 2009, 4:18:33 PM7/20/09
to web...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 3:03 PM, JohnMc <maruadv...@gmail.com> wrote:
Massimo,
Hmm. Latest version of Google Reader does what you suggest. I also
think I seen a subset as a Yahoo Pipes filter.
I don't think either of those masks IP paths, prevents government censorship / tracking;
For some interesting background, have a look at http://www.torproject.org/overview.html.en
JohnMc
Jul 20, 2009, 6:26:41 PM7/20/09
to web2py-users
Yarko,
Definitely not. Neither service has security features. I was
commenting more the P2P nature of the vehicle itself.
I would point out any nation willing to massacre its citizens would
think nothing of turning off top level router links serving their
country as well if the situation required it.
On Jul 20, 3:18 pm, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
Definitely not. Neither service has security features. I was
commenting more the P2P nature of the vehicle itself.
I would point out any nation willing to massacre its citizens would
think nothing of turning off top level router links serving their
country as well if the situation required it.
On Jul 20, 3:18 pm, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 3:03 PM, JohnMc <maruadventu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Massimo,
>
> > Hmm. Latest version of Google Reader does what you suggest. I also
> > think I seen a subset as a Yahoo Pipes filter.
>
> I don't think either of those masks IP paths, prevents government censorship
> / tracking;
>
> For some interesting background, have a look athttp://www.torproject.org/overview.html.en
>
> > Massimo,
>
> > Hmm. Latest version of Google Reader does what you suggest. I also
> > think I seen a subset as a Yahoo Pipes filter.
>
> I don't think either of those masks IP paths, prevents government censorship
> / tracking;
>
Yarko Tymciurak
Jul 20, 2009, 11:26:37 PM7/20/09
to web...@googlegroups.com
On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 5:26 PM, JohnMc <maruadv...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yarko,
Definitely not. Neither service has security features. I was
commenting more the P2P nature of the vehicle itself.
I would point out any nation willing to massacre its citizens would
think nothing of turning off top level router links serving their
country as well if the situation required it.
Interesting explorative discussion, but let's get back to Massimo's request / idea:
Trollkarlen
Jul 21, 2009, 2:35:59 AM7/21/09
to web2py-users
I think something like this would be fairly simple to modify for this
purpose:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kademlia
But i think that making a db back end where the db for the news site
is a distributed hash table is the best approach.
And then just front ends that uses this db in web2py the front ends
can connect to what ever back end they want and get the same data.
The back end can be incorporated in the webapp but started as its own
process/thread and then a db connection to that.
It would be posible to make the kademlia use xmlrpc directly but i
think thats harder and makes the hold network syncronous.
/R
On Jul 21, 5:26 am, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
purpose:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kademlia
But i think that making a db back end where the db for the news site
is a distributed hash table is the best approach.
And then just front ends that uses this db in web2py the front ends
can connect to what ever back end they want and get the same data.
The back end can be incorporated in the webapp but started as its own
process/thread and then a db connection to that.
It would be posible to make the kademlia use xmlrpc directly but i
think thats harder and makes the hold network syncronous.
/R
On Jul 21, 5:26 am, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
JohnMc
Jul 21, 2009, 2:49:26 AM7/21/09
to web2py-users
Presumably to have this survivable you would want multiple replicated
hosts sitting out in the cloud with no content on them other than
pointers to content. All the content is out on the cloud as disparate
objects. That provides an attacker a two pronged problem. It is not
sufficient just to bring down the hosts or a DoS attack. That only
removes the pointers to the content but not the content itself. If
they do bring down the hosts the attackers ability to remove the
content is much harder. The attacker must take over the hosts to
systematically remove the content. A different kettle of fish.
yes, no?
On Jul 20, 10:26 pm, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
hosts sitting out in the cloud with no content on them other than
pointers to content. All the content is out on the cloud as disparate
objects. That provides an attacker a two pronged problem. It is not
sufficient just to bring down the hosts or a DoS attack. That only
removes the pointers to the content but not the content itself. If
they do bring down the hosts the attackers ability to remove the
content is much harder. The attacker must take over the hosts to
systematically remove the content. A different kettle of fish.
yes, no?
On Jul 20, 10:26 pm, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
mdipierro
Jul 21, 2009, 9:55:21 AM7/21/09
to web2py-users
What I have in mind is also replication of content using
db.export_as_csv_file(..) over xmlrpc services or something like that.
Massimo
db.export_as_csv_file(..) over xmlrpc services or something like that.
Massimo
Francisco Gama
Jul 21, 2009, 1:13:01 PM7/21/09
to web2py-users
On Jul 20, 3:58 am, Bottiger <bottig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This sounds very similar to RSS feeds and aggregators. It uses http/
> rpc to fetch news items and you can optionally mirror them on your
> server. You can then filter them with keywords.
>
> There are problems with this with regards to censorship.
>
> 1. XML is unencrypted. And easy to use deep packet inspection on
> (which I have learned participating in the Iran proxies).
> 2. HTTP is easily blocked on a port.
> 3. It is easy for an organization to block access to the servers you
> are accessing. There is no distributed connection feature.
>
hcvst
Jul 25, 2009, 5:15:43 AM7/25/09
to web2py-users
I think the requirements (distributed, p2p) are covered by the wave
protocol
http://www.waveprotocol.org/draft-protocol-spec as proposed by Google
Wave.
I am excited by what Google Wave promises. Perhaps it's time to start
work
on a web2py implementation.
HC
protocol
http://www.waveprotocol.org/draft-protocol-spec as proposed by Google
Wave.
I am excited by what Google Wave promises. Perhaps it's time to start
work
on a web2py implementation.
HC
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