The official Web2py Book by Massimo....for free?

[Pystar]

I had this weird idea today, in other to bring web2py which IMHO is
the best python framework out there, i would suggest that the official
web2py book be made a free download. i give my reasons below:
1. Any newbie who wants to try out web2py might not be interested in
reading the source code, or might find the docs on the web2py site
sufficient, but if the web2py book is available as a free download,
this might arouse his/her interest more.
Just my 2 cents anyway

[Michal Jursa]

And again....

Massimo you should place some really deep and exact explanation about
the book status and reasons why it is not free to the website..:)

Michal alias Plysak

Pystar napsal(a):

[Pystar]

If Massimo is concerned about money (which isnt strange in the light
of things), i feel that the expose and awareness that will be created
by releasing the official web2py book as a free download will over
compensate for anything else. Even more revenue will be made because
people who read the ebook version might be willing to buy the printed
version. The gains to web2py and the whole community would be massive.
Over to you Massimo.

[Kuba Kucharski]

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY

http://groups.google.com/group/web2py/msg/fa8ed72beefa7100
http://groups.google.com/group/web2py/msg/334375c7e0c4be53

Please, google before asking a question.

--
Kuba

[Michal Jursa]

That's absolutely not about money and I understand the reasons only
partially, but if you are seriously interested in web2py, $10 is not so
much. I hope Massimo will clear this all on website soon :)

Michal alias Plysak

Pystar napsal(a):

[Yarko Tymciurak]

People seem to continually have trouble with this.

There is (in my mind) some good education in this:  recognition of natural system boundaries - Massimo's publications or state (free or not) is not in your domain (only your requests are).  Any question of "why" is analogous to innappropriate control in software - loss of separation of concerns.  The only appropriate statement is "I would like free documentation."

Having said that, there should be some of you going on a good, self-introspective, medidative retreat from your computers this weekend to comtemplate the meaning of life and community (I know I am! ;-)).

Second:  WE HEAR YOU.

The best suggestion I have gotten privately is

• Make some free documentation you call "THE MANUAL"
• Separate "manual" from "book" so people stop trying to control people's book efforts.

General structure of "the manual":

• doctest / sphinx documentation will be w/ each function (so things will stay up to date)
• doctest documentation will hold simple example (normal test case,  not edge or boundary testing)
• The "manual" will be held together with a sphinx doc which will organize, integrate documentation from various modules, and add / mix-in  wiki contributions (that is, it will be a community contributed manual)

Books will stand on their own, and (naturally) be the domain of the authors.

Sound good?

Hopefully people will stop talking about the book, stop "writing their own book which will be free" and instead pitch in to help with the new manual.

When I return from spring break, I'll look for additional people who want to contribute.  We have started an example conversion of the doctest stuff to sphinx / RST.   We have a place to host the "live" (actually static, but current) manual.

We will host the sphinx book in the same place that web2py sources exist (will this follow what PEP 374 says - move to mercurial? --- tell us what you think about bitbucket.org hosting; tentatively we are talking about moving web2py in 6 weeks).

Kacper - do you have anything to add?

Hope this gives food for discussion.   

If you want to help w/ the source / docstring conversion, please contact Kacper; perhaps he can assign files, coordinate this initial effort, and basic sphinx book generation, so we can have a preview and next tasks within 2 weeks (?).

Thanks,

Yarko

[technic...@googlemail.com]

Well for a platform to become viable the people who build it need to
get paid somehow, certainly until you get a critical mass of
developers who can contribute on their own time. I don't know
Massimo's situation but I'm guessing he isn't funded by any huge
companies to develop this and $12 for an e-book is A LOT less than a
MSDN subscription.

Roger.

[Yarko Tymciurak]

On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Yarko Tymciurak <yar...@gmail.com> wrote:

*snip*.....

 

Hopefully people will stop talking about the book, stop "writing their own book which will be free" and instead pitch in to help with the new manual.

By the way, I have nothing against people wanting to write books....  If you have a book in you, by all means go for it!  Your successful contribution will benefit all!

I was talking about book announcements that seemed in reaction to this topic, which "smell" like a version of to trying to control someone else, e.g. "make it free, or I will!"  - that is both mildly amusing (lets see results, if any) and sad (in that it "smells" a little like an attempt at control by threat/manipulation). 

[roman.g...@gmail.com]

I tried to learn web2py without the official manual. After failing to
do so, I forked out the $12, and I must say that it is WELL WORTH THE
PRICE!!! The book is jam-packed with material.

Secondly, if by purchasing the book I am supporting the author's
efforts in maintaining and updated web2py, I will happily buy the book
many more times.

$12 is nothing! That is a one day bus-pass. It is a cheap meal at a
restaurant for one person.

If you want a free manual then contribute to the web2py wiki, and very
shortly it will be complete. However, it should not try to be THE
MANUAL, as that would be a complete waste of time and a total
duplication of effort. The wiki should teach all the basics, and
that's it. I really feel that if you need more than the basics, then
it is not much to ask by the author to charge you $12 for the COMPLETE
MANUAL of everything you did and didn't want to know about web2py.


I agree that this should be clarified on the website under a link to
the book (which should be on the main page, maybe via a picture of the
book on the right side above the USER GROUP link. Along with a link to
the PDF.



On Apr 4, 8:17 am, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Baron]

> Massimo you should place some really deep and exact explanation about
the book status and reasons why it is not free to the website..:)

agreed - why does Massimo never weigh in on these threads?

[Baron]

On Apr 5, 12:48 am, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Books will stand on their own, and (naturally) be the domain of the authors.

that did not prevent the Django Project from both selling their book
and allowing free downloads.

Yes this question has been asked before, but it needs to be asked
again because it is not yet resolved. Massimo says selling the book is
not about money but that he needs to publish for academia. I am sure
that is true because most authors do not make much money. However, as
the Django Project shows it is possible to both publish and allow free
download so this is not a real obstacle.

For the record I did buy the book because I have already been using
web2py for some time, but a beginner is unlikely. And my version is
fast becoming out of date with all the new features.

Unfortunately the wiki right now is still pretty empty and doesn't
look like approaching the coverage of the manual for a long time.

Baron

[mdipierro]

First of all this question pops up almost weekly and I have responded
many times. Anyway, I am going to respond once more, but please first
ask yourself:

How do you earn your leaving? Why don't you work for free?

I do not make money from the book (just enough to pay for web2py
expenses, like the web2py pycon hats) but I make money as a professor
(in order to pay my mortgage and feed my family). In my job I get
evaluated yearly for my publications not for the open source code I
write. The printed book counts as a publication and partially accounts
for the time I spend on web2py. Moreover a printed book gives web2py
a certain weight among professionals (who understands that not
everything comes for free). Finally, you should know, that I have
contacted many publishers and I have been unable to find a publisher
that would allow me to publish the book and also allow me to release
it for free. This is not a book written by the community and there are
books on Django, Rails, TG, etc, that do not have a free online
version. The creators of Django make money from software development
and consulting. For them the book is publicity.

I find very odd that you ask me to justify why not everything I do is
free. I guess I could change the business model, give the book for
free, quit my job and charge you to answer your questions about
web2py.

Massimo

[Timmie]

Interesting rationales for having the book on Lulu.
Academia sometimes have some strange habits.
Sometimes, publishing in OpenAccess journals even cost the authors a
lot of money that could have been spent on student assistants etc...
It is totally new for me but _very_ understandable!
In order to increase the publications, Massimo could also write
journal articles with other users as co-authors.
So if you write an article with the Sahana programmer and publish it
in a (ficitve) journal "Health Informatics"
you'd have another item on the list.
This is actually a nice chance for student coders to get first
publications out.

Another approch was taken by Travis Oliphant (numpy developer):
Please refer to his e-Book page for more info:
http://www.tramy.us/

> And my version is fast becoming out of date with all the new features.

Well, Massimo could register emails of users buying the guide and then
send updates once he publishes a new edition.

...just my addition to this controversary on how points of all parties
could be addressed.

[Timmie]

> We will host the sphinx book in the same place that web2py sources exist
> (will this follow what PEP 374 says - move to mercurial? --- tell us what
> you think about bitbucket.org hosting; tentatively we are talking about
> moving web2py in 6 weeks).

What is the need to move to Mercurial?
We currently have already a dvcs (baazar).

[mdipierro]

The book that counts as publication is the one by Wiley. They do not
mind the copy on lulu as long as it is not free.

Massimo

[g-man]

OK, let's look at how the most successful web app framework, Ruby on
Rails did this, so we can learn a little about what works:

1. DHH and 37signals developed Rails using Ruby basically as an in-
house tool to simplify repetitive tasks discovered as a project-
tracking and communication application was created for their own use.

2. Because 37signals is a smart, creative company, they realized that
Rails was useful, and could grow on its own, so publicizing it was a
natural next step, therefore the Pragmatic Programmer book was done
(not free, by the way).

3. Lost of blogs and web-based articles popped up (like on O'Reilly),
which gave how-to instructions for creating a sample app, or solving
specific problems.

4. Videos, like those at peepcode or railscasts, came along, also
increasing the buzz, and teaching people how to do things.

5. More and more books started to be done, creating a self-feeding
trend. Conferences, teaching, and consulting opportunities grew, with
a few 'killer apps' thrown in there for good measure.

6. The Ruby-on-Rails website has an API and some information, but not
a true manual, as far as I remember. The framework is changing fast,
and now the main book is into its 3rd edition in about five years.

So, how many of these things have we done yet? Not too many. True,
web2py is a solid, well-designed framework, but we need many more
blogs, articles, and videos in order to get the word out.

It seems that more and more smart people are looking into web2py,
especially after Pycon, so our momentum is moving in the right
direction.

Massimo has done, and continues to do, a great job of nurturing his
'baby', but we all need to do more in support of growing the web2py
user base, because we all benefit from a larger critical mass of
users.

Where are all the web2py blogs and articles, people?

[desfrenes]

On 6 avr, 22:01, g-man <gregor...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Where are all the web2py blogs and articles, people?

here's one: http://www.desfrenes.com/blog/post/quel-framework-web-python-choisir
:-)

[mdipierro]

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.desfrenes.com%2Fblog%2Fpost%2Fquel-framework-web-python-choisir&sl=fr&tl=en&history_state0=

Comment: http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/sidjames/210/xcllnt.wav

Massimo

[desfrenes]

LOL ! automatic translations are horrible. I could achieve a better
result, even with my bad english ^_^
I didn't see many articles in french but I'm confident it will change
soon. I'll probably write more as I discover web2py.

On 6 avr, 22:47, mdipierro <mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3...

[Baron]

> you should know, that I have
> contacted many publishers and I have been unable to find a publisher
> that would allow me to publish the book and also allow me to release
> it for free.

Massimo I'm confused. You say you were trying to find a publisher that
would allow you to give away the soft copy (I assume then that
arrangement still satisfies your academic requirements). But when I
suggested that same arrangement you got quite defensive...

Did you approach Apress? The online Django book was published by
Apress.

Baron

[Michal Jursa]

HEY PEOPLE!
Stop blaming Massimo for nonfree book!

He wrote the book, he is owner of all rights, copyrights etc. and it is
absolutely on him if he will or will not let it go for free. He
explained so many times it is not his job to sell the book but he has
some reasons to do that and it is not only on him. Accept it or not, but
let Massimo live and breath. He is doing GREAT job, spends a lot of time
with you all, working on web2py, answering questions, fixing bugs etc
etc. So stop blaming him for that silly 'problem' you can solve for $10.
If you are really seriously interested in web2py then this is not price
to stop you. I bought the book and i'm absolutely happy with it and i
know i'm not alone.

Michal alias Plysak

[Keith Edmunds]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:08:31 -0700 (PDT), rich...@gmail.com said:

> And my version is
> fast becoming out of date with all the new features.

This is not a complaint - I do not expect the book to be free - but the
above point is valid. I too have the printed book, but a lot has changed
since it was written. Some projects (the Claws Mail project springs to
mind) include a list of new features with each release. Would that be
something that web2py could do?

Keith

[desfrenes]

and another one: http://www.jjude.com/2009/04/07/why-i-chose-web2py-for-developing-yatsy/

[Baron]

> stop blaming him for that silly 'problem' you can solve for $10.

FYI I have already bought the book. You are right that it is a trivial
amount for someone who is already convinced of the benefits of
web2py.
However it is an obstacle for beginners who are evaluating web2py
while the free documentation is not ready.
Also the book is getting out of date.

Massimo said selling the book is not motivated by profit and he was
looking for a way to simultaneously give it away anyway, just he
couldn't find the right publisher.
Apress permitted this arrangement for the Django Project so it should
be possible for web2py too.

Baron

[mdipierro]

When I called one year ago they would not publish the book at all. Now
we have 10 times more users so it may me worth calling them again. I
will give it a try.

Massimo

[mikech]

I would also like to add my recommendation for this book. I just
purchased it and its a very well written

Mike

On Apr 7, 8:08 pm, mdipierro <mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> When I called one year ago they would not publish thebookat all. Now

> we have 10 times more users so it may me worth calling them again. I
> will give it a try.
>
> Massimo
>
> On Apr 7, 7:33 pm, Baron <richar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > stop blaming him for that silly 'problem' you can solve for $10.
>

> > FYI I have already bought thebook. You are right that it is a trivial

> > amount for someone who is already convinced of the benefits of
> > web2py.
> > However it is an obstacle for beginners who are evaluating web2py
> > while the free documentation is not ready.

> > Also thebookis getting out of date.
>
> > Massimo said selling thebookis not motivated by profit and he was

> > looking for a way to simultaneously give it away anyway, just he
> > couldn't find the right publisher.
> > Apress permitted this arrangement for the Django Project so it should
> > be possible for web2py too.
>
> > Baron
>
> > On Apr 7, 11:18 am, Michal Jursa <mic...@jursa.cz> wrote:
>
> > > HEY PEOPLE!
> > > Stop blaming Massimo for nonfreebook!
>

> > > He wrote thebook, he is owner of all rights, copyrights etc. and it is

> > > absolutely on him if he will or will not let it go for free. He

> > > explained so many times it is not his job to sell thebookbut he has

> > > some reasons to do that and it is not only on him. Accept it or not, but
> > > let Massimo live and breath. He is doing GREAT job, spends a lot of time
> > > with you all, working on web2py, answering questions, fixing bugs etc
> > > etc. So stop blaming him for that silly 'problem' you can solve for $10.
> > > If you are really seriously interested in web2py then this is not price

> > > to stop you. I bought thebookand i'm absolutely happy with it and i

> > > know i'm not alone.
>
> > > Michal alias Plysak
>
> > > Baron wrote:
> > > >> you should know, that I have
> > > >> contacted many publishers and I have been unable to find a publisher

> > > >> that would allow me to publish thebookand also allow me to release

> > > >> it for free.
>
> > > > Massimo I'm confused. You say you were trying to find a publisher that
> > > > would allow you to give away the soft copy (I assume then that
> > > > arrangement still satisfies your academic requirements). But when I
> > > > suggested that same arrangement you got quite defensive...
>

> > > > Did you approach Apress? The online Djangobookwas published by

> > > > Apress.
>
> > > > Baron
>
> > > > On Apr 6, 3:22 pm, mdipierro <mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
> > > >> First of all this question pops up almost weekly and I have responded
> > > >> many times. Anyway, I am going to respond once more, but please first
> > > >> ask yourself:
>
> > > >>     How do you earn your leaving? Why don't you work for free?
>

> > > >> I do not make money from thebook(just enough to pay for web2py

> > > >> expenses, like the web2py pycon hats) but I make money as a professor
> > > >> (in order to pay my mortgage and feed my family). In my job I get
> > > >> evaluated yearly for my publications not for the open source code I

> > > >> write. The printedbookcounts as a publication and partially accounts
> > > >> for the time I spend on web2py.  Moreover a printedbookgives web2py

> > > >> a certain weight among professionals (who understands that not
> > > >> everything comes for free). Finally, you should know, that I have
> > > >> contacted many publishers and I have been unable to find a publisher

> > > >> that would allow me to publish thebookand also allow me to release
> > > >> it for free. This is not abookwritten by the community and there are

> > > >> books on Django, Rails, TG, etc, that do not have a free online
> > > >> version. The creators of Django make money from software development

> > > >> and consulting. For them thebookis publicity.

>
> > > >> I find very odd that you ask me to justify why not everything I do is
> > > >> free. I guess I could change the business model, give thebookfor
> > > >> free, quit my job and charge you to answer your questions about
> > > >> web2py.
>
> > > >> Massimo
>
> > > >> On Apr 5, 6:54 pm, Baron <richar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >>>> Massimo you should place some really deep and exact explanation about

> > > >>> thebookstatus and reasons why it is not free to the website..:)

[Yarko Tymciurak]

I have said this enough times, and am still amazed at these questions.

I will try this one more time: you have no business trying to direct
Massimo's decisions ("give me free xxx..."). If you do then you are
no software engineer for you are committing the same boundry violation
as if you were trying to alter private internal definitions of a class
outside your own. Go write a web framework in FORTRAN if you think
like this. Or pay someone else to.

If, however, you are interested in _-building- the community, and you
want free documentation, then get to work: contribute.

Be nice or leave.

- Yarko