Mailing list problems need to be fixed
John Beckett
people from joining.
I've exchanged some emails with Tim Chase who regularly posted on the old
mailing lists.
Tim has tried a couple of times to subscribe, but he has not received
nessages, and he cannot post.
I gave Tim the standard advice:
- Try unsubscribing and subscribing again.
- Some say they had to click the web link in the confirmation email.
- Others say they had to reply to the confirmation email.
- You could use a Google account. [get real!]
- Maybe some ISPs block Google Groups mail as spam? [evidence?]
There's also the complication of x...@vim.org vs x...@googlegroups.com vs the
Google Groups web form.
Folks - this is not good enough! Tim is a smart guy with a valid email
account. If he can't subscribe, it's quite likely that many others are
having similar problems.
We need a couple of suitably-experienced people to do some quality tests
using several spare email accounts. Is any support from Google Groups
available? What about other Google Groups - do they have problems?
Can we email a sample of other people who seem to be missing, and ask if
they have tried to subscribe but are having trouble? How many subscribers
were on the old list (Google Groups says vim_use has 458 members)?
After some investigation, perhaps Bram could broadcast another explanatory
email to the old vim.org mailing list subscribers.
BTW the main reason I care about this is that I've been waiting for the list
to build up so I can start bombing it with requests to fix some of the Vim
Tips at the wiki:
http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
---Info from Tim---
I am subscribed [to vim_use], and my settings are set to "Email" (rather
than "None", "Summary", or "Digest").
---Mail received by Tim---
Hello [Tim's email address]
We recently received a request from you to subscribe to the group vim_use.
We know you are excited about this group, but it looks like you are already
subscribed to it.
---Mail received by Tim when he posts---
You do not have permission to post to group vim_use.
You may need to join the group before being allowed to post, or this group
may not be open to posting.
John
Tony Mechelynck
I've been having similar problems when I tried to post with a non-Gmail
address. My Google Groups account knows about two addresses of mine:
@gmail.com and @skynet.be. I've set the Gmail one as the one to which list
mail is sent, because otherwise I don't get list mail reliably (I suspect
Skynet is treating Google Groups as spam at least part of the time). Now the
default from-address in my mail client is @skynet.be (it also gets mail from
Gmail using POP). When replying to a list message, the identity is set to
@gmail.com because that's where the message I'm replying to was addressed,
aind it works OK. But when creating a new post, I need to be extra-super-hyper
careful to set my identity to @gmail.com, or the message will be sent from
@skynet.be and -- although that is my secondary address at Google Groups and I
can even log in to Google Groups using it as my username -- I will get the
"You aren't allowed to post" bounce.
If I were Tim, I would make sure that I have a gmail address, then point my
browser to http://groups.google.com, and change the group settings to send
mail to that @gmail.com address. Then I would make sure to use @gmail.com in
the from-line when trying to post.
One hitch about browsers and the Google settings page: the Google
browser-detection routine is faulty. It checks the name by which a browser
announces itself, not the features which the browser supports. This means that
"Firefox" is recognised (and presumably "Netscape" too), but "SeaMonkey"
isn't, and neither are recent alpha and beta versions of Firefox because they
call themselves "DeerPark", "BonEcho", "GranParadiso" or "Minefield" instead
of "Firefox". I would expect that Debian's "IceWeasel" and "IceApe"
(de-branded versions of Firefox and SeaMonkey respectively) wouldn't be
recognised either; and also not the pre-SeaMonkey Mozilla Suite, which simply
hasn't got any brand name at the end of its UA string. All of these use the
same layout engine -- Mozilla's Gecko. The workaround (for these Gecko
browsers) is to go to about:config and make sure that the user-agent string
includes something that looks like a Firefox version. For versions built on
Gecko 1.8 and above (as shown after rv: in the default user-agent string) you
can do this by going to about:config, creating a new String preference named
(for example) general.useragent.extra.google and setting its value to (for
example) Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Gecko 1.7, as used among others in pre-SeaMonkey
Mozilla and in Firefox 1.0.x, is obsolete anyway: if you're still using it,
you should upgrade, if only to benefit of the security and stability bug fixes
which have landed since then.)
Best regards,
Tony.
--
Do you realize how many holes there could be if people would just take
the time to take the dirt out of them?
Franco Saliola
> - You could use a Google account. [get real!]
One could get a Google account and set it up to forward the mail. Then
setup the whichever client one uses to reply to those mails using the
gmail address. This should work, in theory ....
Franco
--
Marvin Renich
>
> John Beckett wrote:
> > The Google Groups mailing list still has problems that may be preventing
> > people from joining.
> >
> > I've exchanged some emails with Tim Chase who regularly posted on the old
> > mailing lists.
> >
> > Tim has tried a couple of times to subscribe, but he has not received
> > nessages, and he cannot post.
> >
> > I gave Tim the standard advice:
> > - Try unsubscribing and subscribing again.
> > - Some say they had to click the web link in the confirmation email.
> > - Others say they had to reply to the confirmation email.
> > - You could use a Google account. [get real!]
> > - Maybe some ISPs block Google Groups mail as spam? [evidence?]
> >
> > There's also the complication of x...@vim.org vs x...@googlegroups.com vs the
> > Google Groups web form.
> >
> > Folks - this is not good enough! Tim is a smart guy with a valid email
> > account. If he can't subscribe, it's quite likely that many others are
> > having similar problems.
> >
>
> If I were Tim, I would make sure that I have a gmail address, then point my
> browser to http://groups.google.com, and change the group settings to send
> mail to that @gmail.com address. Then I would make sure to use @gmail.com in
> the from-line when trying to post.
>
> Tony.
I agree with John, the current situation is not good enough.
Furthermore, forcing people to get gmail accounts is not acceptable
IMHO.
I, too, had significant problems subscribing, but have managed to do so
after repeated failures, and I did not need a gmail account to
subscribe.
What did _not_ work: email to vim-su...@vim.org, then reply to the
confirmation message. I did receive the "Your subscription was
successful" message, and subsequent attempts to re-subscribe without
first unsubscribing gave a "you are already subscribed" response. I did
not get any list mail, even though a sufficient quantity of messages
showed up in the archive over several days. I did not attempt to post,
so I don't know if that would have worked, but from Tim's and Tony's
experience, I doubt it would.
I tried unsubscribing (which appeared to work) and re-subscribing the
same way, and got the same results. I did this several times over a
couple weeks, waiting for list mail each time.
*****
What _did_ work: email to vim-su...@vim.org (and vim-dev-subscribe)
and then when the confirmation email arrived, instead of replying to the
message, I used the web link. I started getting list mail immediately.
(And assuming this message gets through, I am also able to post to the
list. ;-) )
*****
I am cross-posting to vim-exp...@googlegroups.com so that anyone
still lurking on that list while trying to subscribe to this list will
see this message.
However, I think people should complain to Google about their
email-based subscription failing. If someone knows how to get the word
to someone at Google who will actually do something about it, let the
list know (if a larger volume of complaints will get things moving
faster).
...Marvin
Antony Scriven
> [...]
>
> I agree with John, the current situation is not good
> enough. Furthermore, forcing people to get gmail accounts
> is not acceptable IMHO.
And, on a related note, if you are using gmail for your
email check the spam folder. I've had ~10 vim_use emails
flagged as spam by gmail so far. --Antony
Bram Moolenaar
John Beckett wrote:
We are aware of the problem. Unfortunately, it's not yet clear what the
cause of the problem is, which is the first step towards fixing it.
It does help if you collect a complete log of what you did when it
failed to work. That includes:
- The full messages that were exchanged, including all headers (this
makes it possible to see the timestamps, message IDs and machines
involved).
- A complete description of what you did with the times when you did it.
Send this to me in an attachment or archive. It currently works fine
for me, so I can't reproduce it.
Hopefully we can then figure out where the problem happens exactly.
Since it happens to only a few people I suspect there is one specific
server that is behaving erratically. If we can pin down which server it
is that already helps a lot.
--
From "know your smileys":
<|-) Chinese
<|-( Chinese and doesn't like these kind of jokes
/// Bram Moolenaar -- Br...@Moolenaar.net -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
/// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
\\\ download, build and distribute -- http://www.A-A-P.org ///
\\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///
John Beckett
> It does help if you collect a complete log of what you did
> when it failed to work. That includes:
> - The full messages that were exchanged, including all headers
> (this makes it possible to see the timestamps, message IDs
> and machines involved).
> - A complete description of what you did with the times when
> you did it.
>
> Send this to me in an attachment or archive. It currently
> works fine for me, so I can't reproduce it.
Catch 22. The people who have problems are frustrated and confused by all
the things they've tried. They may not have time to go that one step
further.
I'm using gmail with no trouble. I have one specific example of a very
competent person (Tim Chase) who has tried and failed to subscribe using a
valid email account.
We could argue that it's Tim's problem - if he wants to join the list he can
always use gmail.
But surely the community can do better? I don't have the resources to
properly investigate the matter, but I imagine someone here would do it if
encouraged. We need some test accounts that fail (I've tried two, and they
both work).
Can anyone throw some light on these issues:
- Do other Google Groups have problems?
- How many subscribers were on the old list compared with now?
- Can we email a sample of other people who seem to be missing?
Bram said "We are aware of the problem". How about putting a separate page
on vim.org with a problem overview, and put a prominent link from the
mailing list page. At the moment, there is no hint of a problem at
http://www.vim.org/maillist.php and it must be very frustrating for anyone
who is having trouble.
If it would help, I would be happy to coordinate responses and keep an up to
date summary of what is known, and what is recommended. A page on the wiki
would be good for that.
John
Matthew Winn
wrote:
> What did _not_ work: email to vim-su...@vim.org, then reply to the
> confirmation message. I did receive the "Your subscription was
> successful" message, and subsequent attempts to re-subscribe without
> first unsubscribing gave a "you are already subscribed" response.
I tried that, and although the confirmation message arrived I received
no response when I replied to it, and no list messages. Trying to
confirm my subscription using the http link in the message resulted in
the patronising "we know you're excited/already subscribed" page.
> What _did_ work: email to vim-su...@vim.org (and vim-dev-subscribe)
> and then when the confirmation email arrived, instead of replying to the
> message, I used the web link. I started getting list mail immediately.
> (And assuming this message gets through, I am also able to post to the
> list. ;-) )
That's what I did, also successfully.
Those were the second and third things I tried. My first attempt to
subscribe was before I knew about the email method, so I tried to
create an account with Google groups. It never sent out an account
confirmation message. My ISP has no anti-spam filtering in place, so
I'm confident that the messages were never sent. (My ISP does have
spam _tagging_, but all messages are allowed through whether they're
considered to be spam or not.) I tried a couple more times but no
message was sent.
--
Matthew Winn
CraigM
> Hopefully we can then figure out where the problem happens exactly.
> Since it happens to only a few people I suspect there is one specific
> server that is behaving erratically. If we can pin down which server it
> is that already helps a lot.
>
This is what I received while trying the vim-uns...@vim.org
address.
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<vim-uns...@vim.org>
(reason: 554 5.7.1 Service unavailable; Client host
[207.115.20.53] blocked using spam.dnsbl.sorbs.net; Spam Received See:
http://www.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml?207.115.20.53)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to ice.42.org.:
>>> DATA
<<< 554 5.7.1 Service unavailable; Client host [207.115.20.53] blocked
using spam.dnsbl.sorbs.net; Spam Received See: http://www.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml?207.115.20.53
554 5.0.0 Service unavailable
<<< 554 5.5.1 Error: no valid recipients
I was able to subscribe / unsubscribe just fine using the vim_use-
subs...@googlegroups.com address.
Craig