[videoblogging] War On Text

[Lucas Gonze]

On 11/21/05, Steve Watkins <st...@dvmachine.com> wrote:
> Then there is the role of text in this affair. I think that after
> nearly a year of farting around and not achieving anything, I might
> finally decide what project to dedicate myself to, and that will be
> more video-based communication systems. Ive waffled about video forums
> before, and I know someone else has been working on this stuff, and
> there are some existing options, and factors such as me finding it
> easier to type these long messages than say them to a camera. But I
> still want a War on Text, and threaded video conversations etc.

I love the idea of a War On Text.

Audio and video are a more natural medium than text for most humans.
The only reason why net content is mainly text is that it's easier for
programs to work with -- audio and video are opaque as far as programs
are concerned. On top of that, it's a lot easier to treat text as
hypertext, and hypertext has a viral quality.


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[Jay dedman]

> I love the idea of a War On Text.
> Audio and video are a more natural medium than text for most humans.
> The only reason why net content is mainly text is that it's easier for
> programs to work with -- audio and video are opaque as far as programs
> are concerned. On top of that, it's a lot easier to treat text as
> hypertext, and hypertext has a viral quality.

someone who recently joined this group(forgot his name) said that:
"video technology will bring to the internet a more human side which
was missing before."

i keep thinking of my (unborn)kids who will go online and SEE and HEAR
the world through their computers. Its a real sharing of
consciousness.

Jay

--
Adventures in Videoblogging
<URL: http://www.momentshowing.net>
<http://feeds.feedburner.com/Momentshowing>

[Enric]

--- In videob...@yahoogroups.com, Jay dedman <jay.dedman@g...> wrote:
>
> > I love the idea of a War On Text.
> > Audio and video are a more natural medium than text for most humans.
> > The only reason why net content is mainly text is that it's easier for
> > programs to work with -- audio and video are opaque as far as programs
> > are concerned. On top of that, it's a lot easier to treat text as
> > hypertext, and hypertext has a viral quality.
>
> someone who recently joined this group(forgot his name) said that:
> "video technology will bring to the internet a more human side which
> was missing before."
>
> i keep thinking of my (unborn)kids who will go online and SEE and HEAR
> the world through their computers. Its a real sharing of
> consciousness.
>
> Jay
>
> --
> Adventures in Videoblogging
> <URL: http://www.momentshowing.net>
> <http://feeds.feedburner.com/Momentshowing>
>

The only thing I think is probable about the future is that it will be
disruptive.

-- Enric
http://www.cirne.com

[Lucas Gonze]

On 11/22/05, Jay dedman <jay.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i keep thinking of my (unborn)kids who will go online and SEE and HEAR
> the world through their computers. Its a real sharing of
> consciousness.

Seeing and hearing is a lot closer to the way we think about things.
It's easier to absorb what somebody is saying if you can see their
face and hands and body language. I mean, there has never yet been a
text blog post where the person didn't talk at all, yet people
communicate without talking in the real world all the time.

I'll be sad when that happens. I love writing and the way that the
internet has gotten me to write all the time. I remember when the
internet first blew up that I was exercising my writing muscles more
than I ever had, but that's not going to be the case when things are
mainly seeing and hearing.

[Joan Khoo]

I'm not so keen on the war on text. Don't get me wrong, I love audio and video as a medium. But I also have a love interest with the written word. As much as I love to watch what everyone else is doing and feeling, sometimes I prefer to let my imagination take hold when reading a text.
-Joan

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[daniel liss]

a brief response:

http://pouringdown.blogspot.com/2005/11/war-on-text-brief-response.html

-dl
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[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude EVA]

[davetoole2006]

>>>> This is a great observation about programming. There was a book
called the "seven kinds of smarts" we all have many ways that we
communicate our intelligence, our system only values a few and now
the flood gates have been opened. Now we have more ability to
express ourselves in a more natural way. We can tell our stories in
ways that will effect our consiousness on so many levels, hopefully
for the betterment of society.

[Lucas Gonze]

On 11/22/05, daniel liss <dan...@pouringdownpictures.com> wrote:
> a brief response:
>
> http://pouringdown.blogspot.com/2005/11/war-on-text-brief-response.html

If anybody does more vlogs, audioblogs, photoblogs, doodleblogs, etc
on this send me a pointer and I'll include it at
http://gonze.com/weblog/story/warontext

[Josh Wolf]

War on Text? This is the most asinine idea that I have ever
encountered. First off, we're talking about a natural evolution that
will or won't occur whether or not you decide to declare a supposed
"war on text." Secondly, let's look at this historically, prior to
the invention of the telephone, people wrote letters and many of
these letters were quite eloquent; just watch a Ken Burns doc.
Suddenly the telephone allowed us to communicate instantaneously and
allowed us to have the banal conversations we have every day even
when our loved ones were away. This point marks the decline of letter
writing. Before there was radio and then TV, books were a more
prevalent form of entertainment, and there is something to be said
about the literary value of a well-written book that simply isn't
comparable through video. I can list dozens more reasons why text is
a valuable part of our culture, and the very fact that you're
engaging in this dialogue through a written mailing list proves it.
So please tell me why you want to embark upon a "war on text?" Really
the whole idea is needlessly provocative and altogether spooky...

Josh

The Revolution Will Be Televised
www.joshwolf.net

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____________________________________________
"We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into to peace."
"Power to the peaceful!"

Spearhead - Bomb the World

[Joan Khoo]

That's how I feel. You said what I meant but in a more ranting kind of way. :)
Joan

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[Steve Garfield]

To me a video blog is a blog that sometimes includes video.

One the reasons that videoblogs have taken off is because they are
based on the technology of blogging software.

At January's vloggercon, I stood up and showed my videos in the context
of the blog, with their associated text entries.

The blog post has value.

I would never declare a war on text because it is an integral part of
my videoblog.

The text part of my blog has links to things that I mention in my
video, stories behind the making of my video blog post, and links to
other vloggers that I highlight sometimes. It feeds the community.

My video blog is a marriage between text and video, and I do not want a
divorce.

On Nov 23, 2005, at 12:53 AM, Josh Wolf wrote:

> War on Text? This is the most asinine idea that I have ever
> encountered.

--Steve
--
Home Page - http://stevegarfield.com
Video Blog - http://stevegarfield.blogs.com
Text Blog - http://offonatangent.blogspot.com

Like Paul Revere, leading the citizen's media revolution.

[missbhavens1969]

This has really got me thinking. I love that videoblogging is getting more and more
widespread on the internet (themed, un-themed, series', whatever, I really don't care), and
I think it's all just a natural extension from text. So natural, in fact, that my blog was only
text-based for a couple of posts before I decided to steer toward a vlog instead. It just
seemed like the obvious next thing to do with it. Actually, my (v)blog remains a mishmash
of text and video. I have no plans on streamlining it to be either one or the other, and I
don't yet plan to split it in two and carry on with both. Sometimes I just have to write it
out. Sometimes video is better.

Lucas, you needn't be saddened by the impending war on text. There won't be one. BUT
there should be exploration down textless avenues...it's only natural. Not to mention cool
as hell. I want as many of my senses as active as possible while I interact with people, and
that's really what this is all about ("I susbscribe to people."--Steve Garfield). If we can get
as far as a Smell-o-vlog, I can die happy.


b.
http://missbhavens.blogspot.com


--- In videob...@yahoogroups.com, Lucas Gonze <lucas.gonze@g...> wrote:

[Randolfe Wicker]

I'm always surprised at how few people post text with links to further information when they post a vlog.

 

I just stumbled on an exhibit of fabulous sculpture from Zimbabwe.  Apparently, working in sculpture was only introduced there in the 1950s and that country's artisans have become world famous for how they have mastered it.

 

I found a lot of interesting stuff and put the links in the text vlog for those who might want to investigate the subject further.

 

 

Randolfe (Randy) Wicker

 

Videographer, Writer, Activist
Advisor: The Immortality Institute
Hoboken, NJ
http://www.randywickerreporting.blogspot.com/
201-656-3280

 

 

[Pete Prodoehl]

Jay dedman wrote:
>>Audio and video are a more natural medium than text for most humans.

> i keep thinking of my (unborn)kids who will go online and SEE and HEAR
> the world through their computers.

And by then we'll be able to use h.264

Pete

--
http://tinkernet.org/
videoblog for the future...

[Steve Watkins]

The most asinine idea ever? Wow I must be getting somewhere :)

Let me expand on what I meant. For a start the term 'war on text' is
supposed to be tongue in cheek, as the 'War On Terror' is one of the
most stupid things Ive ever come across.

Secondly Im a massive hypocrite on this issue because Ive posted about
million words here over the last year but only 3 videos. But that
doesnt stop me hating the downside of text, such as how
arguments/debates end up going when done via text.

I dont think your version if history tells the full story because its
missing out the fact of just how many people were and still are
illiterate. In this sense text can be great barrier, a great divider,
a great unequalizer and tool of maintaining the status quo and keeping
people in their place. These sorts of things along with language
barriers make me dream of computers that required no understanding of
the written word in order to be used, quite a challenge, but that no
excuse for the world never trying this stuff.

I really like this quote from the film 'A Fistful of Dynamite', which
doesnt quite fit this topic but overlaps it a bit in my mind:

"The people who read the books, they go to the poor people, and they
say "we have to have a revolution". So the poor people go out and make
the revolution. And then the people who read the books, they sit
around the fancy tables and talk. And what has happened to the poor
people ? They are DEAD !!.
And then the whole fucking shit starts all over again.
Dont talk to me about revolutions."


OK I dot really want a war on text, as if such a thing was possible.
But I do favour text being used where it works best, and as many
lively discussions as possible taking place via video instead. I am
currently considering whether to throw my hat into the ring of people
using flash comm server (now flash media server) to deliver
interesting video services on the web, I'll do anything to get rid of
the text version of me which I consider to be even more of a nghtmare
than the multimedia version of me lol.

Steve of Elbows

> > On 11/23/05, Lucas Gonze <lucas.gonze@g...> wrote: On

[Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen]

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:59:15 +0100, Steve Watkins <st...@dvmachine.com>
wrote:

> Let me expand on what I meant. For a start the term 'war on text' is
> supposed to be tongue in cheek, as the 'War On Terror' is one of the
> most stupid things Ive ever come across.

Adrian Miles wrote this some years ago:

"While Michael Joyce once, rather famously, commented that "hypertext is
the word's revenge on TV" (Joyce, 1995: 47) I'd like to suggest that
hypertext is in fact cinema's revenge on the word, and what I am
interested in exploring is the word's remaking of itself in the light of
the cinematic. This 'allure of the cinematic' as the expression of an
always immanent cinematic force probably takes various forms, however
through the comparison of a particular cinematic moment or gesture - the
edit - in the light of a particular hypertextual moment or gesture - the
link, this force is given, in some manner, corporeal expression."

Anyway, food for thought. the entire thing is online at: <URL:
http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/essays/cinema_paradigms/introduction.html >

- Andreas
--
<URL:http://www.solitude.dk/>
Commentary on media, communication, culture and technology.

[Enric]

Text just doesn't flow your long hair.

;)

[Enric]

--- In videob...@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen"
<ahpe01@h...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:59:15 +0100, Steve Watkins <steve@d...>

> wrote:
>
> > Let me expand on what I meant. For a start the term 'war on text' is
> > supposed to be tongue in cheek, as the 'War On Terror' is one of the
> > most stupid things Ive ever come across.
>
> Adrian Miles wrote this some years ago:
>
> "While Michael Joyce once, rather famously, commented that
"hypertext is
> the word's revenge on TV" (Joyce, 1995: 47) I'd like to suggest that
> hypertext is in fact cinema's revenge on the word, and what I am
> interested in exploring is the word's remaking of itself in the
light of
> the cinematic. This 'allure of the cinematic' as the expression of an
> always immanent cinematic force probably takes various forms, however
> through the comparison of a particular cinematic moment or gesture -
the
> edit - in the light of a particular hypertextual moment or gesture -
the
> link, this force is given, in some manner, corporeal expression."
>
> Anyway, food for thought. the entire thing is online at: <URL:
> http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/essays/cinema_paradigms/introduction.html >
>
> - Andreas
> --
> <URL:http://www.solitude.dk/>
> Commentary on media, communication, culture and technology.
>

I don't see the relationship. Cinema and the subset of the edit is
linear, hypertext is non-linear. This seems more poetic simile
mismatch than illuminating.

-- Enric

[Jim Vinson]

We recently had an exercise here at DivX where we charted global changes based on media paradigms. Starting with written words bringing about commerce in Mesopotamia through the very recent concept of mass shared experiences.

It is interesting that the format of media can limit not only how you express yourself, but what is possible to be expressed. It isn't a stretch to translate the format of media into a limiting factor on what is possible to be thought as well.

We obviously believe that digital media, in general, is a shift as profound as the advent of writing itself. Digital video is a very rich subset of digital media.

Digital media isn't an assault on any previous craft of media, but an enabler. The limits of digital expression in text are certainly not exhausted. However, it is much more mature than personal expression through video. Innovation in technology, production and spirit are happening in digital video expression on a daily basis.

Jim V
________________________________________
From: videob...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:videob...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Watkins
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:59 AM
To: videob...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [videoblogging] Re: War On Text

The most asinine idea ever? Wow I must be getting somewhere :)

Let me expand on what I meant. For a start the term 'war on text' is
supposed to be tongue in cheek, as the 'War On Terror' is one of the
most stupid things Ive ever come across.

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> ____________________________________________
> "We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into to peace."
> "Power to the peaceful!"
>
> Spearhead - Bomb the World
>

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[Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen]

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:15:08 +0100, Enric <en...@cirne.com> wrote:

> I don't see the relationship. Cinema and the subset of the edit is
> linear, hypertext is non-linear. This seems more poetic simile
> mismatch than illuminating.

It was just a quote. Obviously it helps to read it all. :o)

Cinema is non-linear before you decide on the edit as well. And when
hypertext is read it too become linear (you choose one path out of a group
of possibles). The difference is that there is one central person doing
the edit in cinema whereas in hypertext the edit is performed individually
with each reading. The point is that in cinema is that the in-between
clips is part of the meaning and the same in true in hypertext (with the
reader creating the in-betweens, making a huge change). Did that help at
all?

- Andreas
--
<URL:http://www.solitude.dk/>
Commentary on media, communication, culture and technology.

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[Enric]

--- In videob...@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen"
<ahpe01@h...> wrote:
>

> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:15:08 +0100, Enric <enric@c...> wrote:
>
> > I don't see the relationship. Cinema and the subset of the edit is
> > linear, hypertext is non-linear. This seems more poetic simile
> > mismatch than illuminating.
>
> It was just a quote. Obviously it helps to read it all. :o)
>
> Cinema is non-linear before you decide on the edit as well. And when
> hypertext is read it too become linear (you choose one path out of a
group
> of possibles). The difference is that there is one central person
doing
> the edit in cinema whereas in hypertext the edit is performed
individually
> with each reading. The point is that in cinema is that the in-between
> clips is part of the meaning and the same in true in hypertext (with
the
> reader creating the in-betweens, making a huge change). Did that
help at
> all?
>
> - Andreas
> --
> <URL:http://www.solitude.dk/>
> Commentary on media, communication, culture and technology.
>

The conceptual construction is in any media and a mental inference
capability. This occurs in novels where a few well constructed words
extrapolate to mental inages. The choice to move down hypertext
channels, back-up and more to others and jump to points in the history
is more essential.

-- Enric

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[Josh Wolf]

On Nov 23, 2005, at 9:59 AM, Steve Watkins wrote:

> The most asinine idea ever? Wow I must be getting somewhere :)
>
> Let me expand on what I meant. For a start the term 'war on text' is
> supposed to be tongue in cheek, as the 'War On Terror' is one of the
> most stupid things Ive ever come across.
>

Tongue in cheek or not, not everyone out there seems to realize
just how antithetic the entire idea of an armed war against terror
really is. By the same token, people could, though probably not, take

the "War on Text" seriously, as I said:

>> Really
>> the whole idea is needlessly provocative and altogether spooky...

> Secondly Im a massive hypocrite on this issue because Ive posted about
> million words here over the last year but only 3 videos. But that
> doesnt stop me hating the downside of text, such as how
> arguments/debates end up going when done via text.

Although it's true that there is a much greater tendency to get cruel
and personal through text-based arguments. I'd prefer to think that
not everyone suffers from this neurosis that results in countless ad
hominid attacks, and debates over text can frequently result in a
much more comprehensive discussion of the issue than what might be
brought up in a a/v conversation.

> I dont think your version if history tells the full story because its
> missing out the fact of just how many people were and still are
> illiterate.

That's completely true Steve, but to suggest that the solution is for
us to equalize the great divide by abandoning the written language.
Oh wait, maybe I suddenly get it... it's almost like dropping white
phosphorous on women and children in Fallujah in a war against WMDS.
That probably seems harsh, but dude, computers and the internet are
obviously just as great a barrier, divider, and unequalizer, and just
as strong a tool that threatens to maintain the status quo (although
they don't do a good job at keeping people in place, but neither do
books.) Yes, the $100 laptop could theoretically change all of this,
but Negroponte's project still seems more like a pipe dream to me and
wouldn't help those who are functionally illiterate within the US.

> In this sense text can be great barrier, a great divider,
> a great unequalizer and tool of maintaining the status quo and keeping
> people in their place. These sorts of things along with language
> barriers make me dream of computers that required no understanding of
> the written word in order to be used, quite a challenge, but that no
> excuse for the world never trying this stuff.
>
> I really like this quote from the film 'A Fistful of Dynamite', which
> doesnt quite fit this topic but overlaps it a bit in my mind:
>
> "The people who read the books, they go to the poor people, and they
> say "we have to have a revolution". So the poor people go out and make
> the revolution. And then the people who read the books, they sit
> around the fancy tables and talk. And what has happened to the poor
> people ? They are DEAD !!.
> And then the whole fucking shit starts all over again.
> Dont talk to me about revolutions."
>
>
> OK I dot really want a war on text, as if such a thing was possible.
> But I do favour text being used where it works best, and as many
> lively discussions as possible taking place via video instead. I am
> currently considering whether to throw my hat into the ring of people
> using flash comm server (now flash media server) to deliver
> interesting video services on the web, I'll do anything to get rid of
> the text version of me which I consider to be even more of a nghtmare
> than the multimedia version of me lol.
>

So I basically agree with you here... to the extent that, I think
people need to not feel limited to only communicating via text. I
think cell phones are starting to change the way people view
different mediums. Now that you can send photos and videos to your
friends from your phone, I think people are beginning to liberate
themselves from only communicating simply with language. That's cool.
But for me it's all about finding your voice, not assigning boxes for
where text is and is not appropriate.

"When they give you lined paper write the other way." -- Juan Ramon
Jiminez

Josh -- www.joshwolf.net

____________________________________________
"Don't hate the media, become the media."- Jello Biafra

[rob]

does anyone study history?

i see comments stating implicitly or explicitly that video will (note use of
future tense, that's a clue folks) have the same profound effect as writing.
ha ha ha.

the effect of the masses being taught to read/write changed EVERYTHING in
europe (i was born there, now live in north america, so i'll leave my
observations to these places)... no western culture would exist in any
recognizable form without writing/print... this is not an exaggeration: read
about events following the black plague, memory cathedrals, martin luther,
etc and it's affect on society. (one interesting example is none of us can
remember much compared to those who lived before)

video's not close to that and is unlikely to be: no fundamental institutions
have yet formed from the existence of video... no social hierarchies of any
importance (videobloggers are clearly more important than anyone else on the
planet but leaving that aside...) have developed either... yes, hollywood
generates "celebrities" people who are accorded higher social status in a
mundane way, but this phenomena has been around a very long time, it isn't
new; gladiators for instance.

but even more importantly...


in my opinion, before video will replace text, something will replace video.

new technologies have already been developed that are more likely to play a
large role in communications over this century... here's a couple i recently
read:

how about the one that can directly interface to the brain (new scientist
reports on electroencephalography with quadriplegics able to make a
wheelchair move forward, left or right)... considering the full implications
of devices like this, it's not hard to see where the real revolutions will
occur in communications.

developments in hormones allow people to "bottle" emotional states. (look up
Oxytocin's and the University of Zurich)... what artist wouldn't want to get
their hands on something like that? (not to mention politicians, frustrated
lovers, etc)


UPSIDE
so easy to be critical... one really should reveal one's own preferences.

where i do feel video steps up and above is regarding tangible experiences.
reading travel books has nothing on even the most amateur video footage
taken in some far-off location. the subtle interplay of facial features, etc
gives clear messages that'd never translate as well in text form.

my videoblogs otherwise are usually quite amateurish technically, but they
capture an emotion nicely... more pro ones tend to be overly concerned with
polish rather than content. there's also a sense of lack-of-control ("i
dunno why it worked out so good, but check it out!" type of blogs) which i
enjoy. serendipity.

newscast blogs are ok, but the regard i have for them stems from their
social function... they blog stuff corporate newscasters won't touch, or
think is unimportant, or is unsuited to their political agenda.

blogs in the "omg i'm so special" style are ok in small doses... easy to
relate to cuz hey! "I" am the most important person in my universe... and i
would hope everyone else feels the same about themselves in their
universe... but i'll only watch a few before moving on to someone else.


CONCLUSION
video's just another tool in the arsenal we have to communicate.

a statement like "war on text" implies such a narrow vision of what
experiences are worth sharing... i can't imagine how drab and dull things
would be, tho if i go back and re-read 1984 perhaps i'll have an idea.

later
rob

ps ~ someone wrote that video is non-linear... only from a creators
perspective... the audience has no such luxury. whereas text? there's a
thing called skim-reading. works great.

text requires far less attention than video... do the test: glance at a
paragraph, glance at a video. which one do you feel confident you understand
the creators intent?

and hyperlinks? they are the embodiment of non-linear, allowing a person to
go back/forth at will to whatever section they wish. video has nothing as
effective... hotspots are a cool idea, but there's a lack of grace regarding
how they're incorporated into video footage. hypertext links otoh can be
ignored or used with no distraction to the reading material.

pps ~ "war on text"? ick. must've been a joke i missed cuz i find it a
tasteless phrase.

ppps ~ i'll go back to lurking now.

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[Markus Sandy]

i think we may be comparing apples and oranges

it's not really the video vs. text

the distinction if really between the 'visual' and the 'abstract'.

how the information is delivered does not seem change that

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[Joan Khoo]

That is true. How can you compare mediums when they are fundamentally different. Sure they have pros and cons, but it doesn't mean that one is more superior than the other.

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[Lucas Gonze]

On 11/23/05, Markus Sandy <mar...@apperceptions.org> wrote:
> i think we may be comparing apples and oranges
>
> it's not really the video vs. text
>
> the distinction if really between the 'visual' and the 'abstract'.
>
> how the information is delivered does not seem change that

There's some word from linguistics to express this... Also, probably
plenty of interesting reading on related abstractions.

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[Steve Watkins]

Im not suggesting a real war on text. I continue to be amused by how
such a phrase can cause such apparent offense, it wasnt meant to, Im
not interested in any sort of war or book burning. I should be more
careful if I use the phrease in future.

I study history in an informal way, when did I ever attempt to
dininish the role of text in the history of humans?

I think the history of the world in the last century has been rather
sharply influenced by video, especially in the form on television. Its
changed the face of politics and news and the manufacturing of consent.

I remain unsure of the future and other forms of communication that
rely on very high technology interfacing to the body. If Id been a
child of the 1950's I might have expected everyone to have jetpacks by
now but it hasnt happened.

Steve of Elbows

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[Joan Khoo]

Indeed, I can't think of any other centuries where global hysteria could be whipped up and calmed within hours, even minutes.

On 11/24/05, Steve Watkins <st...@dvmachine.com> wrote:

I think the history of the world in the last century has been rather
sharply influenced by video, especially in the form on television. Its
changed the face of politics and news and the manufacturing of consent.

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[Steve Garfield]

Your URL please?

On Nov 23, 2005, at 5:40 PM, rob wrote:

> my videoblogs otherwise are usually quite amateurish technically, but
> they
> capture an emotion nicely

--Steve
--
Home Page - http://stevegarfield.com
Video Blog - http://stevegarfield.blogs.com
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Like Paul Revere, leading the citizen's media revolution.

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[Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 00:38:12 +0100, Lucas Gonze <lucas...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 11/23/05, Markus Sandy <mar...@apperceptions.org> wrote:
>> i think we may be comparing apples and oranges
>>
>> it's not really the video vs. text
>>
>> the distinction if really between the 'visual' and the 'abstract'.
>>
>> how the information is delivered does not seem change that
>
> There's some word from linguistics to express this... Also, probably
> plenty of interesting reading on related abstractions.

Probably not what you're thinking of since it's not linguistics, but
semiotics talk about three types of signs: icon, index and symbol. Written
language belonging to the last group (arbitrary signs given value by
convention).

- Andreas
--
<URL:http://www.solitude.dk/>
Commentary on media, communication, culture and technology.

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[Lucas Gonze]

On 11/23/05, Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen <ahp...@hum.aau.dk> wrote:
> Probably not what you're thinking of since it's not linguistics, but
> semiotics talk about three types of signs: icon, index and symbol. Written
> language belonging to the last group (arbitrary signs given value by
> convention).

Any idea where video is in there, Andreas?

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[Adrian Miles]

around the 23/11/05 Lucas Gonze mentioned about Re: [videoblogging]
Re: War On Text that:

>Any idea where video is in there, Andreas?

video as most of us think of it is indexical in the first instance.
An index is a sign where there is a *necessary* existential relation
between the sign and the thing. Which is fancy pragmatic American
philosophy (this comes from C.S. Peirce, famous US philosopher) speak
for the thing the sign stands for had to be there. eg smoke as sign
of fire.

This is partly basis of my argument in the essay i did on blogs as a
form documentary.
--
cheers
Adrian Miles
this email is bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private [x]
hypertext.RMIT <URL:http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/admin/briefEmail.html >

[Enric]

--- In videob...@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Miles <adrian.miles@r...>
wrote:

>
> around the 23/11/05 Lucas Gonze mentioned about Re: [videoblogging]
> Re: War On Text that:
> >Any idea where video is in there, Andreas?
>
> video as most of us think of it is indexical in the first instance.
> An index is a sign where there is a *necessary* existential relation
> between the sign and the thing. Which is fancy pragmatic American
> philosophy (this comes from C.S. Peirce, famous US philosopher) speak
> for the thing the sign stands for had to be there. eg smoke as sign
> of fire.
>
> This is partly basis of my argument in the essay i did on blogs as a
> form documentary.
> --
> cheers
> Adrian Miles
> this email is bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private [x]
> hypertext.RMIT <URL:http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/admin/briefEmail.html >
>

So photographs would similarly be in the set of indexical?

-- Enric

[Adrian Miles]

around the 24/11/05 Enric mentioned about [videoblogging] Re: War On Text that:

>So photographs would similarly be in the set of indexical?

in the time of chemical photography, yes :-)

--
cheers
Adrian Miles
this email is bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private [x]
hypertext.RMIT <URL:http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/admin/briefEmail.html >

[Enric]

--- In videob...@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Miles <adrian.miles@r...>
wrote:
>

> around the 24/11/05 Enric mentioned about [videoblogging] Re: War On
Text that:
> >So photographs would similarly be in the set of indexical?
>
> in the time of chemical photography, yes :-)
> --
> cheers
> Adrian Miles
> this email is bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private [x]
> hypertext.RMIT <URL:http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/admin/briefEmail.html >
>

Then what of digital photography and cinematography?

-- Enric

[Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 04:13:38 +0100, Adrian Miles
<adrian...@rmit.edu.au> wrote:

> around the 23/11/05 Lucas Gonze mentioned about Re: [videoblogging]
> Re: War On Text that:
>> Any idea where video is in there, Andreas?
>
> video as most of us think of it is indexical in the first instance.
> An index is a sign where there is a *necessary* existential relation
> between the sign and the thing. Which is fancy pragmatic American
> philosophy (this comes from C.S. Peirce, famous US philosopher) speak
> for the thing the sign stands for had to be there. eg smoke as sign
> of fire.
>
> This is partly basis of my argument in the essay i did on blogs as a
> form documentary.

Disclaimer: I read your article, but it's been a couple of weeks so I may
have gotten stuff mixed up afterwards. I have also only read secondary
literatur about Peirce because 100 year-old philosophy in English is
harder to read than the essays of Adrian Miles. :o)

To me it's hard to look at video in general, because you can do so much
with video that it's hard to say 'video is indexical'. With that said I
was surprised to see little talk about photography and video as icons.
Yes, video is connected to what was recorded, but largely it convey its
ideas by imitating them (a very good imitation, often). So I see video as
being primary iconic with indexical signs at certain points (Columbia
University subway sign as an index for a certain part of NYC).

But like I said video is so complex that it contains all types of signs in
one happy unison. Voice-overs as symbols (apart from onomatopoetic words),
parts of film grammar are symbols as well.

- Andreas
--
<URL:http://www.solitude.dk/>
Commentary on media, communication, culture and technology.

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[Adrian Miles]

around the 23/11/05 Enric mentioned about [videoblogging] Re: War On Text that:

>I don't see the relationship. Cinema and the subset of the edit is
>linear, hypertext is non-linear. This seems more poetic simile
>mismatch than illuminating.

quickly (am busy)

A. shot of man, cut to shot of dead child.
man interpreted to be expressing grief

B. shot of man (identical), beautiful woman
man interpreted expressing desire/love

etc.

exactly same content, new relation, new meaning. the meaning is NOT
in the shot, if it were then how could A and B be possible? (if
meaning in the shot then what they mean would be indpendent of order
or relations between parts).

same deal with hypertext links, which all hypertext fiction has
demonstrated. you're right, difference is hypertext has multiple
possibilities, trad. film (not vogging) has one. but that is only
difference. effect of link/edit is same.

--
cheers
Adrian Miles
this email is bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private [x]
hypertext.RMIT <URL:http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/admin/briefEmail.html >

[Adrian Miles]

around the 23/11/05 Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen mentioned about Re:

[videoblogging] Re: War On Text that:

>Cinema is non-linear before you decide on the edit as well. And when
>hypertext is read it too become linear (you choose one path out of a group
>of possibles). The difference is that there is one central person doing
>the edit in cinema whereas in hypertext the edit is performed individually
>with each reading. The point is that in cinema is that the in-between
>clips is part of the meaning and the same in true in hypertext (with the
>reader creating

good points which i'd forgotten. when you are editing film there is
no intrinsic point at which it *has* be cut (yes rules of continuity
but they are not rules of grammar, all films remain understandable if
they cross the line, break continuity etc), and also cutting doesn't
'break' the shot. A 30 second close up of gun is still a close up of
gun if it is 10 seconds. (this makes them very different to words.)

this is one aspect of film's granularity, which blogs have
appropriated (my remark that hyperrtext is cinema's revenge on word).
you link from a part to another part (shorten shot A and link to a
shortened Shot B) and it creates new meanings. link from blog post
(part of post) to blog post. NOT blog to blog. it is parts to parts.
etc etc. (all this is old hat for hypertext, blogs, etc. the only
novelty if that is seeing that these relations have always been
present in cinema).

--
cheers
Adrian Miles
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[Thomas G Henry]

originally i was gonna weigh in as follows...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 11/23/05, Josh Wolf <inth...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

War on Text? This is the most asinine idea that I have ever 
encountered.

 

Really the whole idea is needlessly provocative and altogether spooky...

I agree. Unless this is just a funny joke.

I just wanted to weigh in quick b4 I finish catching up... a/v = more expressive/richer content = fewer barriers/more efficient communication... so for those with access.. great! up with a/v!!

it's just easy to skim and scan text... scrubbing video isnt as effective... i dont think...

not to mention... anyone remember Fahrenheit 451? although we would not be destroying content per se.. .and in fact enriching it... the time and care people put into hand-written/slow-going letters... vs the technofied communications... was a form of reflection... the reading and writing process are meditative... and active... not as passive as letting a/v wash over you...

i mean look at this.. i put no thought in... no love... i know if u dont get me i can just retype it... maybe coherently next time... if this was my one shot at reaching you all for like weeks... i'd put more care in ... maybe... hehe

so i love rich content and all the potential therein... but the scary thing is the potential for passivity... and the potential for less meaningful reflection...

but then.... maybe im proving myself wrong... with text...

anyway.. to this point it sounds like undermining a channel of communication... =bad...

but if war on text means... forging universal, accessible, efficient (virtually automated) infrastructure for distributing the richest content (a/v and text, etc) then HUA! maybe a war on text dependence... we need to declare our independence from text... but um... still trade with it...


and of course if y'all been kidding... sorry im such a reactionary square.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

now i've read more and i really like the way this is going.... about semiotics n what not... fascinating

i will say also that test can get folks in trouble hardcore... many a missed joke... flirtation... criticism... or whatever... can arise from just text....


let us never forget that in the beginning there was the word... and word is bond.
--
Thomas G Henry
Phone: 845.22.88.555
Skype: ThomasGHenry

Community Media
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[Enric]

--- In videob...@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Miles <adrian.miles@r...>
wrote:
>

> around the 23/11/05 Enric mentioned about [videoblogging] Re: War On
Text that:
> >I don't see the relationship. Cinema and the subset of the edit is
> >linear, hypertext is non-linear. This seems more poetic simile
> >mismatch than illuminating.
>
> quickly (am busy)
>
> A. shot of man, cut to shot of dead child.
> man interpreted to be expressing grief
>
> B. shot of man (identical), beautiful woman
> man interpreted expressing desire/love
>
> etc.
>
> exactly same content, new relation, new meaning. the meaning is NOT
> in the shot, if it were then how could A and B be possible? (if
> meaning in the shot then what they mean would be indpendent of order
> or relations between parts).
>
> same deal with hypertext links, which all hypertext fiction has
> demonstrated. you're right, difference is hypertext has multiple
> possibilities, trad. film (not vogging) has one. but that is only
> difference. effect of link/edit is same.
> --
> cheers
> Adrian Miles
> this email is bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private [x]
> hypertext.RMIT <URL:http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/admin/briefEmail.html >
>

Yes, I got a B.A. in Film Studies from the University of California at
Berkeley. In 1978 taking a beginning class on film history I read of
the "Kuleshov Effect"

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Kuleshov%20Experiment

this 1918 discovery was remarkable for film editing at that time.
It's funny that poeple still refer to this pre-1920 discovery as
something remarkable and relevant. Gestalt psychology beginning in
the 1930's studying vision and decision making and now cognitive
psychology have gone beyond this basic knowledge of image association
to show in cognitive assocation happens naturally in the mind based on
available information. The mind infers the best assocations based on
sensory data available -- visual, aural, olafactory, and/or tactile.
This capability is not unique to film or hypertext.

-- Enric

[Adrian Miles]

around the 25/11/05 Enric mentioned about [videoblogging] Re: War On Text that:

>This capability is not unique to film or hypertext.

that isn't the claim, it is that film and hypertext (as you indicate)
seem to work in the same, or highly similar, ways. big news for some.
minor for others. YMMV. and yes, it is the Kuleshov effect, but don't
underestimate the importance of this discovery for those who work in
hyperrtext (who are text centric), and vice versa for those in 'new
media' who are image centric and so think hypertext (which has a
stunning history) has nothing to offer.

but they're conversations for other forums (where I have been
publishing about the intersection of film and hypertext for 10 years,
see also Clara mancini's recent "Cinematic Hypertext")

--
cheers
Adrian Miles
this email is bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private [x]
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[Enric]

--- In videob...@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Miles <adrian.miles@r...>
wrote:
>

> around the 25/11/05 Enric mentioned about [videoblogging] Re: War On
Text that:
> >This capability is not unique to film or hypertext.
>
> that isn't the claim, it is that film and hypertext (as you indicate)
> seem to work in the same, or highly similar, ways. big news for some.
> minor for others. YMMV. and yes, it is the Kuleshov effect, but don't
> underestimate the importance of this discovery for those who work in
> hyperrtext (who are text centric), and vice versa for those in 'new
> media' who are image centric and so think hypertext (which has a
> stunning history) has nothing to offer.
>
> but they're conversations for other forums (where I have been
> publishing about the intersection of film and hypertext for 10 years,
> see also Clara mancini's recent "Cinematic Hypertext")
> --
> cheers
> Adrian Miles
> this email is bloggable [ ] ask first [ ] private [x]
> hypertext.RMIT <URL:http://hypertext.rmit.edu.au/admin/briefEmail.html >
>

Yes, this is not the forum to parse this. ;)

I still think there's a logical leap from film viewer of an edit to a
person clicking on hypertext. But it's not here to hash out.

-- Enric
http://cirne.com
Determine the Media

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[Verdi]

On Nov 30, 2005, at 3:19 AM, Enric wrote:

> --- In videob...@yahoogroups.com, Adrian Miles <adrian.miles@r...>
> wrote:
>>
>> but they're conversations for other forums (where I have been
>> publishing about the intersection of film and hypertext for 10 years,
>> see also Clara mancini's recent "Cinematic Hypertext")
>

> Yes, this is not the forum to parse this. ;)
>
> I still think there's a logical leap from film viewer of an edit to a
> person clicking on hypertext. But it's not here to hash out.

Why not?
Verdi

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