'Wild Country'?
Eddie Langdown
finding shops etc...
I just wonder where exactly these places are. I have been walking in the
Brecon Beacons recently, and around the Lakes but tourists, burger vans and
farms are never that far away. Last week we were in the New Forest and
given that the scouts had to cross a thundering dual carriageway, they never
actually met anyone to speak to for the whole of the day. Is that 'wild'
enough?
Would parts of Dorsett and Gloustershire fit the bill; they have been
hovered clean of shops, busses and farms with farmers for miles in any
direction.... just miles of deserted footpaths and country lanes. Would
this be suitable for DofE Gold / QSA ?
Also, why are we so fixated on the 3 days duration?
My last QSA group took 10 days to canoe the whole of the river Thames (
Letchlade to Tower Bridge ) with no support.
--
Eddie Langdown GSL 16th Bermondsey, London
http://bermondseyscout.co.uk/
Steve Smith
> This DofE thread about 'Wild Country' and places where we can walk without
> finding shops etc...
> I just wonder where exactly these places are.
For me, the aim would be to be genuinly unsupported and away from
civilisation. I think there are various places in the UK where it's
possible to plan a 50 mile hiking route that does not take in any form
of civilisation. The easiest place to do this is in the highlands, but
I'm sure it's do-able elsewhere too, with a bit of careful planning.
I'm not sure about canoeing, I guess there must be wild rivers
somewhere?
I know that the highlands are a long way away from those of you in the
south east, but surely a D of E gold / QSA is supposed to be an
adventure? I think that a flight or long train journey to get to the
start of your hike makes it all the more adventurous.
Anyway, who said it had to happen in the UK?
> Also, why are we so fixated on the 3 days duration?
All together now.. "because that's what the rules say!"
> My last QSA group took 10 days to canoe the whole of the river Thames (
> Letchlade to Tower Bridge ) with no support.
Excellent!
Steve.
Eddie Langdown
"Steve Smith" <steve...@unforgettable.com> wrote in message
news:1156322738.3...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Oh, believe me Steve; my heart is continually 'in the Highlands a chasing
the deer' but my only experience was one rather scary walk my wife and I
did in Glen Nevis, where we were aiming to catch the last train from some
station in the middle of no-where, getting dark, totally exhausted, the
wrong side of a river we had to wade....
I really don't think there is any way a teenager trained entirely on the
farm footpaths of Sussex, Bronze in the New Forest, Silver possibly in
Black Mountains could be transported to Scotland on the strength of such
limited experience.
I find all this Ray Mears 'eye candy' stuff very similar to posh cookery
books, where the hell can Jo Public really chop a tree down and light a
fire, let alone sleep under a tarp? The man has been brilliant at selling
fantasy, sheer fantasy. The only place I know of is the back end of
Broadstone Warren ( and I met him there doing it once!)
I get really pissed-off by the New Forest, you teach kids to pack their kit
and be 'self contained' , they walk for miles through thickly wooded forest
and open plains but can only camp alongside cars and caravans. I just wish
there were small simple sites for hikers with no car access, deep in the
forest.
So where else do people know of that we can camp away from roads cars &
caravans?
chris.5th
We camped pretty wild on our QSA Hike (and in the chilterns??!??)
We wrote to farmers asking for a place in the corner of a field. All
we had was a patch of grass and occasional access to a tap. OK, not
bivvying in the woods. But it wasn't all the facilities etc that you
speak of.
John Russell
>I get really pissed-off by the New Forest, you teach kids to pack their kit
>and be 'self contained' , they walk for miles through thickly wooded forest
>and open plains but can only camp alongside cars and caravans. I just wish
>there were small simple sites for hikers with no car access, deep in the
>forest.
>So where else do people know of that we can camp away from roads cars &
>caravans?
Dartmoor. Outside of a few specified restricted areas you can camp anywhere
provided it's at least 100m (or is it 200m?) from any road and for not more
than 2 nights.
--
John Russell
CSL 1st Pinhoe Exeter Devon
http://www.pinhoescouts.org.uk/cubs/
Cubs don't care how much you know, but they need to know how much you care.
Eddie Langdown
"John Russell" <jrus...@jrrconsulting.co.uk> wrote in message
news:32boe2hsjv1oif2uv...@4ax.com...
Oh thanks John.
Is that just witin the National Park boundaries?
Are there any other National Park areas with the same rules? Exemoor?
Eddie
Steve Smith
> I really don't think there is any way a teenager trained entirely on the
> farm footpaths of Sussex, Bronze in the New Forest, Silver possibly in
> Black Mountains could be transported to Scotland on the strength of such
> limited experience.
That's what training's for. Anyway, it's Scotland, not Outer Mongolia!
There are plenty of parts of Scotland where the terrain and navigation
is no more demanding than the Black Mountains, there's just more scope
for walking longer distances without hitting a village.
> I find all this Ray Mears 'eye candy' stuff very similar to posh cookery
> books, where the hell can Jo Public really chop a tree down and light a
> fire, let alone sleep under a tarp? The man has been brilliant at selling
> fantasy, sheer fantasy. The only place I know of is the back end of
> Broadstone Warren ( and I met him there doing it once!)
I was just about to hit reply after the first sentence and say
Broadstone Warren!
> So where else do people know of that we can camp away from roads cars &
> caravans?
Just about anywhere in Snowdonia or the Lake District, as long as
you're quiet about it!
Steve.
chris.5th
if u look like u know what you are doing, never light a fire, put your
tent up at dusk and are packed nice and early. rangers are v unlikely
to have a problem with you.
GAGS
"Eddie Langdown" <the3...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:gJWdnVyBD5YpnHHZ...@bt.com...
> This DofE thread about 'Wild Country' and places where we can walk
without
> finding shops etc...
> I just wonder where exactly these places are.
Okay I'll add my £1.23's worth! :-)
Let me say first-off it's important to understand the difference between
'wild country' (WC) and 'wilderness'. There is a consensus but no outright
'definitions' of these.
Starting with the latter. What is generally understood to be a wilderness?
An area where there is no human impact at all, no roads, no permanent
settlements, no signs of industry, no modern means of communication, and
few, if any, visitors. Places where one can cover large tracts and meet no
other human or signs of human activity. Think of large parts of Canada,
Alaska, Northern Russia, the desert and tropical rainforest regions of the
world, etc.
Britain has little, if any, areas of true wilderness and any that we do have
are relatively small (compared to the areas given above). You're really
looking at areas in N & NW Scotland, areas such as the Floe Country,
Knoydart, parts of Wester Ross, Assynt and (my favourite wilderness area)
The Fisherfield Forest.
'Wild Country' (WC) on the other hand is generally understood to be an area
remote from habitation. Subtle adaptations/understandings are often made to
this by various bodies/people, e.g. habitation is often understood to mean
cities, towns, and villages, but not remote hamlets or solitary
houses/buildingsfarms, etc, and 'remote' can often mean many miles or just a
few miles.
In Britain, WC, is generally understood by many organisations/people to be
those areas of 'remote' upland and some organisations go further and
actually define the areas. These areas are generally: most of the Scottish
Highlands and Islands (e.g. Caithness & Sutherland, Wester & Easter Ross,
Skye, Mull, Western Isles, Arran, Lochaber and the Grampians, to name a
few); the Southern Uplands (Galloway and Border Hills); the backbone of
England (Cheviots, Pennines, Dales, and Peak District); Lake District; North
York Moors; Snowdonia; Mid-Wales (e.g. Radnor Forest); South Wales
(Camarthen Fan, Brecon Beacons, Black Mountains); and finally, Dartmoor.
I'm sure people can probably add few of their own that they think deserve to
be in this list. The list above is just what most people understand to be
WC.
Note: Any Wilderness area is also a WC area, however, the converse is not
true.
> I have been walking in the
> Brecon Beacons recently, and around the Lakes but tourists, burger vans
and
> farms are never that far away.
True. That doesn't, however, make them non-WC; it's just someone's
definition, it doesn't have to be yours!
> Last week we were in the New Forest and
> given that the scouts had to cross a thundering dual carriageway, they
never
> actually met anyone to speak to for the whole of the day. Is that 'wild'
> enough?
Anywhere can be 'wild'! Most people don't consider the New Forest (NF) to be
WC because it doesn't fit into the type of country given in the list above.
But that's their definition. You choose want you want it to be for you!
I can remember as a wee lad many years ago when I lived in Cheshire how my
mates and I would get out the bikes, pack a few essentials and head off to
camp in the depths of Delamere Forest (similar to, but smaller than the NF).
They really were 'wild adventures miles away from civilisation'! (Actually
'miles' here was about 2!) Or the time when we went up to the islands in the
Dee estuary, walked out at low tide, and camped overnight, isolated by the
tide and surrounded by the sea. With no boat.we really were wild and remote
from habitation.
> Would parts of Dorsett and Gloustershire fit the bill; they have been
> hovered clean of shops, busses and farms with farmers for miles in any
> direction.... just miles of deserted footpaths and country lanes.
Whose 'bill' are you looking at?
Yours? Quite possibly.
DofE definition of WC? No.
> Would
> this be suitable for DofE Gold / QSA ?
For DofE Gold expeditions? No. These must be done in WC. The DofE's list of
WC areas is the same as the one I gave above.
The QSA, IIRC, does not define the type of country for the expedition,
however, there is a reasonable expectation that it should be done in WC
areas. As I'm sure you know, scouting doesn't now define areas as WC for MHM
activities, but rather 'terrains' given by definitions related to height,
remoteness and 'technical difficulty'. However, these terrains in many
places roughly match those of the WC areas defined by the DofE.
>
> Also, why are we so fixated on the 3 days duration?
Opportunites! Outside of the main school summer holiday (and possibly
Easter) there are limited opportunities to do much more than 3 or 4 days,
even then it's a tight squeeze on a BH weekend or even in half-term weeks.
3/4 days is considered to be just enough time for the expedition to be
reasonably 'adventurous' and for the yp to have opportunities to experience
the outdoors and practice/learn outdoor skills. Don't forget the practice
events and the training that lead up to this - they're all in a sense part
of the expedition.
Granted this is a 'bare minimum'! One would love to have time to fit in much
longer expeditions, but for many these days that just isn't feasible.
Many yp who enjoy these mini-adventures do go on to experience much longer
and more arduous expeditions later on in life.
The DofE and scouting awards expeditions are merely a stepping-stone for
some who go onto further adventures - some all over the world - and a final
highpoint - at that time - for others. No two people are the same!
The summer after finishing school (many years ago, though not when farthings
were still around!), aged 17, I recall taking my self off with friends to
Scotland for a month. We had a great time hiking around Lochaber, Skye and
Wester Ross and when my friends went home a week early I headed into the
Fisherfield Forest for 5-days of solitude, roughing it in the Shenavall
bothy as a base for climbing An Teallach, bivvying by Fionn Loch - and
swimming in ti to get away from Mr Midge, etc. Saw about 3 people all week.
All too soon though the call of study and then work took me away from
adventure and back to the human world!
> My last QSA group took 10 days to canoe the whole of the river Thames (
> Letchlade to Tower Bridge ) with no support.
That's fine! Expeditions in the DofE and QSA schemes don't have to just be
done on foot - they can be done by boat, canoe, on horseback, by bike. If
people want to go on longer expeditions that too is fine (though you can
only count 4 days for the DofE Gold). If you have the time, do it!
Don't let's get bogged down into thinking that an expedition is only
something along the lines of those defined by the DofE or scouting award
schemes. It is if you want it to count towards these awards, but outside of
these it can really be anything you want - 10 days canoeing down the Thames
or 10 minutes fighting your way through the crowds in TESCO's! :-)
That's about £2.74's worth! :-)
GAGS
Richard L Clauson
absolutec...@craplineone.net (GAGS) on Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:47:00
+0100 wrote:
> Okay I'll add my £1.23's worth! :-)
... (snip)
Wow, that was long, but very interesting. I've bookmarked it here in
AMEOL so I can refer back to it again. After being an AVSL for many
years, then (& still) an Instructor with ESMAT, I'm now also starting to
help with a local DofE group and this will be useful there.
Richard
Instructor with ESMAT (yr eryrod) - Essex Scout Mountain Activities Team
Edward
"Eddie Langdown" <the3...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> I get really pissed-off by the New Forest, you teach kids to pack their kit
> and be 'self contained' , they walk for miles through thickly wooded forest
> and open plains but can only camp alongside cars and caravans. I just wish
> there were small simple sites for hikers with no car access, deep in the
> forest.
> So where else do people know of that we can camp away from roads cars &
> caravans?
>
> Eddie Langdown GSL 16th Bermondsey, London
> http://bermondseyscout.co.uk/
>
>
Do you mean that NF rules forbid 'wild' camping? What a bummer!
I know that National Trust wardens don't allow it.
--
Edward SL..
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
Peter Sheppard
> farm footpaths of Sussex, Bronze in the New Forest, Silver possibly in
> Black Mountains could be transported to Scotland on the strength of such
> limited experience.
Black Mountains is fine for GOLD for the average teenager. We tend to go
down in the Wye Valley for Silver, whether its the lower wye (following the
river from above monmouth down to chepstow, using our Area campsite at
Tintern for one of the nights), or further in the Forest of Dean (Biblins
etc).
The number of school D of E Silver groups who've had to be pulled out of the
black mountains by mountain rescue recently is unacceptably high. Mostly
they are unequipped, untrained, and/or unable to cope with the south wales
microclimate! The reason in my opinion its always silver groups is that get
pulled off, is that they don't have to have their expedition approved by the
expedition panel like Gold applicants do. This seems to either ensure they
are properly prepared before they apply, or the Panel are rejecting
inappropriate routes.
My advice - stay out of the Black Mountains (and the Brecon Beacons for that
matter) at Silver, and use it for Gold, unless you have a particularly
adventurous group who wouldn't be otherwise challenged, and even then, make
sure you can equip, train and support them properly!!
Peter Sheppard
> without finding shops etc...
> I just wonder where exactly these places are.
This map is a good start:
http://www.theaward.org/images/involved/p275_map.gif
The full list of Panels is on
http://www.theaward.org/involved/index.php?ids=46&id=87
Stephen Rainsbury
> So where else do people know of that we can camp away from roads cars &
> caravans?
In the last year we have slept under tarps in the wood at
1 - Matts Hill campsite Gillingham (private virtual green field site)
2 - Hope Hill (Gravesend training ground)
3 - In the woods above Bluebell hill (on a night hike, without permission)
Last year we also used
1 - Buckmore Park (soon to re-open PLEASE!!)
2 - Lodge Hill army campsite
3 - Hamlett Wood Maidstone.
For a "bushcraft camp" You don't have to be miles from anybody, just where
you can't hear or see them.
--
Stephen Rainsbury
ADC(Scouts) Gillingham Kent
ESL Agathoid Explorer Scout Unit
"Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens" - Jimi Hendrix
GAGS
"Peter Sheppard" <use...@petersheppard.com> wrote in message
news:4l3su9...@individual.net...
>
> Black Mountains is fine for GOLD for the average teenager. We tend to go
> down in the Wye Valley for Silver, whether its the lower wye (following
the
> river from above monmouth down to chepstow, using our Area campsite at
> Tintern for one of the nights), or further in the Forest of Dean (Biblins
> etc).
Perfectly acceptable choice of terrain!
Bronze level ventures - recommended: normal rural country - Wye valley would
be okay for this.
Silver level ventures - recommended: normal rural or open country- and the
Wye Valley/FOD are okay for this.
Gold level ventures - must be WC - and the Black Mountains are okay for
this.
>
> The number of school D of E Silver groups who've had to be pulled out of
the
> black mountains by mountain rescue recently is unacceptably high.
Oh dear!
> Mostly
> they are unequipped, untrained, and/or unable to cope with the south wales
> microclimate!
Hmm.... probably biting off a bit too much for them to chew.
(As regards equipment and training, see next part of reply.)
> The reason in my opinion its always silver groups is that get
> pulled off, is that they don't have to have their expedition approved by
the
> expedition panel like Gold applicants do.
Er....no.
ALL expeditions (and practice hikes) - that includes Bronze, Silver and
Gold - in WC areas MUST notify the appropriate WC panel!
Notification is not required for expeditions (Bronze and Silver) that take
place in non-WC. Gold expeditions must always take place in WC so
notification for these is always required.
Bronze and Silver ventures in WC areas are not expressly forbidden, however,
the WC expedition panel is likely not to approve a Bronze expedition in WC
and will look seriously at a Silver expedition planned for WC. (These are
likely outcomes and it will take into account the candidates, their age and
maturity, and their skills and training.)
A silver expedition in a WC area that has not notified the appropriate WC
panel will be ruled invalid.
Gold ventures must take place in WC and they must notify the approriate WC
panel.
Notification, where required, is a condition of the award. It's a rule!
If award leaders/supervisors are taking teams on expeditions (or even
training outings) in to WC and are not notifying the appropriate WC panel
then they risk being labelled 'reckless'.
One wonders what the assessor was up to allowing a DofE expedition to
proceed in WC without notification and approval! It can't have been a WC
panel appointee because they wouldn't be appointed if there was no
notification. If it was an accredited assessor, well they'll risk losing
their accreditation. And if it was an OA appointed assessor then the OA
people are just as reckless.
Let's hope some size 15's were doing their job! :-)
> This seems to either ensure they
> are properly prepared before they apply, or the Panel are rejecting
> inappropriate routes.
Essentially yes.
Any Bronze or Silver expedition that takes place in WC must have
participants that are trained and equipped to the Gold level expedition
standard. (Same applies obviously to Gold.) The assessor for the expedition
will check this and assess at the appropriate standard (i.e. Gold). A silver
expedition in WC working at the silver standard will fail the assessment.
Likewise, a Bronze expedition in WC working at the Silver standard will also
fail.
If the assessor suspects at the familiarisation stage that such a team will
fail because they cannot meet the higher expected standards, then s/he will
not allow the expedition to go ahead.
Note the higher standards (for ventures in WC) are concerned with equipment
and training. They don't mean that a Bronze expedition in WC has to cover 50
miles, for example!
>
> My advice - stay out of the Black Mountains (and the Brecon Beacons for
that
> matter) at Silver, and use it for Gold, unless you have a particularly
> adventurous group who wouldn't be otherwise challenged, and even then,
make
> sure you can equip, train and support them properly!!
Yes, good advice.
On average groups at a particular award level should stick to the
recommended areas/terrain for that award level.
Groups working at Bronze/Silver level should not consider WC expeditions
unless, as you say, they are a particularly experienced, mature, and
adventurous team that are equipped to the Gold expedition standard and have
had training and possess skills at the Gold standard.
IME, your average school-based Silver expedition is most unlikely to be in a
position to satisfactorily cope with the higher demands and standards
required for a WC expedition. There is a real risk of failure if there
aren't the skills and experience in the team.
The same is likely to be the case for some scouting (or guiding)-based
teams, but I do believe that there are a good number of teams in these
organisations that do possess the experience, training and skills that could
meet the higher demands and standards, certainly those from Units who run a
good MHM activities programme. (And yes here in this reply I'm talking about
ventures on foot.)
GAGS
John Russell
>
>"John Russell" <jrus...@jrrconsulting.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:32boe2hsjv1oif2uv...@4ax.com...
>> Dartmoor. Outside of a few specified restricted areas you can camp
>> anywhere
>> provided it's at least 100m (or is it 200m?) from any road and for not
>> more
>> than 2 nights.
>
>Oh thanks John.
>Is that just witin the National Park boundaries?
>Are there any other National Park areas with the same rules? Exemoor?
>Eddie
>
It's a byelaw of the Dartmoor National Park Authority that specifically
gives that right on Dartmoor. The normal legal situation is that you need
the permission of the landowner to camp. There doesn't seem to be a
'general permission' given on Exmoor.
mike_sitv
GAGS wrote:
> The same is likely to be the case for some scouting (or guiding)-based
> teams, but I do believe that there are a good number of teams in these
> organisations that do possess the experience, training and skills that could
> meet the higher demands and standards, certainly those from Units who run a
> good MHM activities programme. (And yes here in this reply I'm talking about
> ventures on foot.)
>
> GAGS
GAGS I am glad you added this last paragraph as I was mentally
composing a reply to all the (snipped) points above it.
I would be lynched by my Explorers if I ran a bronze expedition in the
Wye Valley, for us the Black Mountains is standard stomping ground
I agree with notifications for WC and that training is up to the
standard required for that sort of terrain, but this is the level I
expect them ( and they themselves aim for) to be at by 14/15 years old
and the training is aimed at achieving this
Horses for courses, but its getting that recognised thats thats the
problem, both with some people who make blanket statements about "If
its Bronze its the Ridgeway etc" and those who regardelss of ability
say "My scouts can do Bronze in WC"
Mike
GAGS
"mike_sitv" <mike...@ukaea.org.uk> wrote in message
news:1156416693.9...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> GAGS wrote:
> > The same is likely to be the case for some scouting (or guiding)-based
> > teams, but I do believe that there are a good number of teams in these
> > organisations that do possess the experience, training and skills that
could
> > meet the higher demands and standards, certainly those from Units who
run a
> > good MHM activities programme. (And yes here in this reply I'm talking
about
> > ventures on foot.)
> >
> > GAGS
>
> GAGS I am glad you added this last paragraph as I was mentally
> composing a reply to all the (snipped) points above it.
It was signposted when I said: 'On average.....' and used the term:
'Recommended...'!
>
> I would be lynched by my Explorers if I ran a bronze expedition in the
> Wye Valley, for us the Black Mountains is standard stomping ground
And if I was assessing I would have no problems provided that the supervisor
was aware of the implications of doing a Bronze venture in WC and the team
was equipped and skilled to meet the higher demand.
>
> I agree with notifications for WC and that training is up to the
> standard required for that sort of terrain, but this is the level I
> expect them ( and they themselves aim for) to be at by 14/15 years old
> and the training is aimed at achieving this
I have no problems with that. Again, if I was called on to assess I'd want
to see evidence of skills before letting any such team go ahead. I would
want to see more than just 6-12 months of targetted (to that expedition)
training; I'd want to see evidence of a progressive build-up of skills to
the required level as well as experience in different WC areas over a longer
period of time. For example, I'd want to hear of MHM activities they'd done
while in the Troop and/or other awards they'd gained, both scouting and
non-scouting maybe.
If you can convince the assessor that they are ready for that particular
challenge then there's no major reason why the assessor should say no. I'm
sure you understand that convincing the assessor that all necessary measures
have been taken and that the challenge is achievable is important. I'm sure
you do because it's not the norm and that places the onus of good judgement
to let it go ahead squarely on the assessor and yourself.
>
> Horses for courses, but its getting that recognised thats thats the
> problem, both with some people who make blanket statements about "If
> its Bronze its the Ridgeway etc" and those who regardelss of ability
> say "My scouts can do Bronze in WC"
Yes these wild statements are heard from time to time. Every candidate/team
is different and you can't shove everyone into the same box.
When I was assessing I would raise an eyebrow or two when called upon to
assess a bronze or silver expedition in WC. I didn't immediately say: 'No
way!', but I would be on the alert to look very closely at all aspects of
the expedition - the individual candidates, their equipment, skills and
training, their previous experiences, and the quality of their preparation
and their leaders. I would say that I'd have a much more intense
familiarisation period than I would with a gold level team doing an
expedition.
Of course if the Black Mountains are your standard stomping ground, and if I
was called upon to assess a Bronze venture of yours in WC, then it wouldn't
take place in the Black Mountains.
GAGS
Peter Sheppard
> I
> was called upon to assess a Bronze venture of yours in WC, then it
> wouldn't
> take place in the Black Mountains.
Presumably because it would be too familiar, and unchallenging by that
point?
GAGS
> > Of course if the Black Mountains are your standard stomping ground, and
if
> > I
> > was called upon to assess a Bronze venture of yours in WC, then it
> > wouldn't
> > take place in the Black Mountains.
>
> Presumably because it would be too familiar,
Correct. Expeditions should take place in unfamiliar country.
> and unchallenging by that
> point?
>
Quite possibly. Standard stomping ground routes can vary in the degree of
challenge due to a number of factors, such as the weather or different
kit/pack weight one's carrying, etc. If it's familiar country there's
generally far less demand on the use of good navigation skills.
You see this on Snowdon occasionally. People walking to the summit from
Pen-y-Pass see the high top right there in front of them and if they don't
read their map they often end up on the top of that high top, Crib Goch.
Oops! Next time they read their map carefully. By the 4/5/6th time the map's
locked away again because now they know which way to go.
I can't remember the last time I seriously looked at a map of places such as
Snowdonia, the Lakes, the Peak, Dales, etc. (At least not when I'm on my
own. When teaching others it's always used.)
That doesn't mean one can't devise unfamiliar routes in familiar country,
but that approach generally makes route planning a right pain.
If you've stomped a number of times all over the Black Mountains, including
practice events, then you've really got to get the team to look at the
expedition going over the Beacons or Camarthen Fan, if they still want to
keep it relatively close to home and provided you haven't stomped there too
much, or going further afield, wouldn't you agree?
GAGS
Richard L Clauson
absolutec...@craplineone.net (GAGS) on Thu, 24 Aug 2006 01:33:28
+0100 wrote:
> The same is likely to be the case for some scouting (or guiding)-based
> teams, but I do believe that there are a good number of teams in these
> organisations that do possess the experience, training and skills that
> could meet the higher demands and standards, certainly those from Units
> who run a good MHM activities programme. (And yes here in this reply
> I'm talking about ventures on foot.)
Sorry to ask a silly question - but what does MHM mean?
Tony Mochan
<rcla...@virbius.uk.co> wrote:
> In article <44ecf...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com>,
> absolutec...@craplineone.net (GAGS) on Thu, 24 Aug 2006 01:33:28
> +0100 wrote:
>
>> The same is likely to be the case for some scouting (or guiding)-based
>> teams, but I do believe that there are a good number of teams in these
>> organisations that do possess the experience, training and skills that
>> could meet the higher demands and standards, certainly those from Units
>> who run a good MHM activities programme. (And yes here in this reply
>> I'm talking about ventures on foot.)
>
> Sorry to ask a silly question - but what does MHM mean?
Ooo, that worries me from a member of ESMAT ... "Moors, Hills & Mountains".
--
Tony Mochan
Scout Leader, 20th Dundee
Stephen Rainsbury
> Ooo, that worries me from a member of ESMAT ... "Moors, Hills & Mountains".
>
> --
> Tony Mochan
> Scout Leader, 20th Dundee
You have never been to Essex have you :-)
Its got less "Moors, Hills & Mountains" that Kent :-)
SBR
Richard L Clauson
:-)
Tony, I'm not one of the administrators/organisers of ESMAT so haven't
caught up with the latest acronyms (& it's not in the AMEOL acronym addon
list). And I've not done any instructing for about 18 months as I've been
doing a Masters degree.
Thanks for the answer anyway. I'm sure that there are others out there
(here) that haven't caught up either, so the answer will help them as well.
Peter Sheppard
> including
> practice events, then you've really got to get the team to look at the
> expedition going over the Beacons or Camarthen Fan, if they still want to
> keep it relatively close to home and provided you haven't stomped there
> too
> much, or going further afield, wouldn't you agree?
Totally, though in my case, the stomping ground with the ES tends to be the
central beacons, so I'd be sending them into the Blacks :)
However, I'm not doing much stomping at all at the moment due to an ankle
injury. Need to finish my own Gold off fairly soon, before my Network
membership self destructs. So I now plan to do my Gold by Canadian canoe -
given I've not spent more than half a day on a river, it should prove an
interesting challenge :o)
Peter Sheppard
>
> Ooo, that worries me from a member of ESMAT ... "Moors, Hills &
> Mountains".
Actually, I've only ever heard MHM spoken about in UKRS. Everyone in
Scouting locally refers to it as "Form M stuff/places" :)
GAGS
I suppose I should stick my hand up and say that the use here of MHM is
probably down to me. MHM is simply the acronym of Moors, Hills & Mountains.
Most people still use the term 'Form M' as a shorthand way of describing a
permit to lead/supervise adventurous activities in moors, hill & mountains.
This comes from the old form - Form M - that was used in the application
process for the permit, 'M' for mountaineering.
Similarly, people used to use the term 'Form W' to describe the associated
permit to lead/supervise various water-based activities, i.e. W for water
(activities). Strangely there never was a Form W used in the application
process! In fact Form W, IIRC, was the form used for notification of
'withdrawl' of warrant.
Hunt around scouting for a Form M nowadays and you won't find one. There is
now no Form M; that term is now obsolete! These days one should say a permit
to lead/supervise adventurous activities in moors, hill & mountains. And
these activities cover mmch more than just moutaineering!
When 'Form M' was dropped I thought it was better to use the phrase
'activities in moors, hills and mountains' which I simply contracted to 'MHM
activities'. Who wants to write 'moors, hills, and mountains' every time!
And if you've got new people in scouting, why continue to use obsolete
terms? You won't find it in Factsheets or POR nowadays (except where they
may say the 'the old Form M' or such like in describing the permit and/or
application process.
I believe it's more useful to new people to scouting to use MHM activities
or MHM permit. Once it's understood that MHM stands for moors, hills &
mountains, at least then these people should be able find and look up
further details in scouting documents. Using Form M is likely to get you
nowhere!
Why continue to use Form M to describe a permit to lead/supervise
adventurous activities in moors, hills and mountains, especially now it
doesn't exist? Furthermore it's a bit of an anachronism to use 'M' (for
mountaineering) to stand for activities such as off-road cycling or
hillwalking!
GAGS
Peter Sheppard
> adventurous activities in moors, hills and mountains, especially now it
> doesn't exist? Furthermore it's a bit of an anachronism to use 'M' (for
> mountaineering) to stand for activities such as off-road cycling or
> hillwalking!
Actually, until next September, Form M still exists - at least, that's
what's written on the top right corner of the PDFs on Scoutbase. As does
Form CA (climbing/abseiling), and no, I don't know why people think climbing
comes under Form M, plus Form S for snowsports. Water and Caving appear not
to have any short code on them.
Until your County decides to adopt the new permit scheme, applications still
go through the current authorisations process. Ours claim to be adopting on
1st Jan, which rather annoyingly gives me 2 months to deal with everything
before my 1st aid renewal, as my DC will only issue authorisations up to the
date of 1st aid expiry!
Other currently used short named forms, for those who like their
paperwork...
A - Registration of a District Scout Council
AA - Adult Appointment
AR - Adult Review
C - Registration of a Scout Group
C2 - Registration Change
WB - Woodbadge
GS - Application for Good Service and Decorations
L - Application for Service Certificates and Decorations
RF - Reference Form
Richard L Clauson
absolutec...@craplineone.net (GAGS) on Sat, 26 Aug 2006 00:52:46
+0100 wrote:
> "Peter Sheppard" <use...@petersheppard.com> wrote in message
> news:4l8or8...@individual.net...
> > >> Sorry to ask a silly question - but what does MHM mean?
> > >
> > > Ooo, that worries me from a member of ESMAT ... "Moors, Hills &
> > > Mountains".
> >
> > Actually, I've only ever heard MHM spoken about in UKRS. Everyone in
> > Scouting locally refers to it as "Form M stuff/places" :)
> >
>
> I suppose I should stick my hand up and say that the use here of MHM is
> probably down to me. MHM is simply the acronym of Moors, Hills &
> Mountains. Most people still use the term 'Form M' as a shorthand way of
> describing a permit to lead/supervise adventurous activities in moors,
> hill & mountains. This comes from the old form - Form M - that was
> used in the application process for the permit, 'M' for mountaineering.
So it wasn't just me that had never heard of MHM, and still use the term
"Form M" or as we do in ESMAT "M Form". :-)
I also still talk about getting my MLC, or MLC (Winter), when the MLTB has
now moved on to MLTUK with its offspring MLTE, MLTS, MLTW & MLTNI.
Old habits die hard, and now I qualify for Saga Expeditions (is that an
oxymoron?) I've decided I can be an old codger legally. :-)
--
Richard L Clauson | /// ///
| \ // / /
ESMAT, yr eryrod | \ //// _/ /
| \_ //// /
Essex | \___/ /
Scout | / \
Mountain | /,)-_( \_ \
Activities | (/ \\ / \\\\
Team |_ //
Also see Essex Scouts - http://www.essexscouts.org.uk/esmat/
stevie...@yahoo.co.uk
Why does the DC do that ?
Do they not trust leaders to follow the activity rules ?
Stephen Rainsbury
news:1156680381.9...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>> as my DC will only issue authorisations up to the date of 1st aid expiry!
>
> Why does the DC do that ?
supposedly to make the admin easier, just like putting the same date for NA
permits
SBR
stevie...@yahoo.co.uk
> permits
Supposedly indeed.
There giving themselves more work.
Most authorisations are for 5 years (my experience) so I guess the DCs
are increasing their admin burden by 66%, not reducing it.
Peter Sheppard
>
> Why does the DC do that ?
>
> Do they not trust leaders to follow the activity rules ?
Because "as soon as you've renewed your first aid I'll extend the
authorisations to when it next expires"
And yes, that extension usually comes without contact with the activity
assessor!! So they can't follow the activity rules themselves :)
stevie...@yahoo.co.uk
> authorisations to when it next expires"
>
> And yes, that extension usually comes without contact with the activity
If the assessor puts the renewal or valid to date on the application
(as is the case for rock climbing), then I dont think the DC is allowed
to extend it as you suggest since that could be going above the
recommendation of the assessor, the factsheet says; " The District
Commissioner can NEVER go above the recommendation of the Assessor"
Is an authorisation 'extended' by the DC without recourse to the
assessor valid ?
I would suggest it is not.
Peter Sheppard
I'm fairly sure its not either - hence the comment about the DC not
following activity rules themselves. My authorisations are now signed by
the CC anyway - I run activities for all of our districts, and it was
decided it was more appropriate to have the CC signing the paperwork, rather
than one DC.
Tony Mochan
<ste...@rainsbury.net> wrote:
> Tony Mochan wrote:
>
>> Ooo, that worries me from a member of ESMAT ... "Moors, Hills &
>> Mountains".
>>
>> --
>> Tony Mochan
>> Scout Leader, 20th Dundee
>
> You have never been to Essex have you :-)
Several times actually ... mostly to that place near Chelmsford.
> Its got less "Moors, Hills & Mountains" that Kent :-)
Never been to Kent though (as far as I know)
Never seen any proper mountains in England ... Scotland and Wales are the
only ones with lasting impact. Even the Lake District isn't too high,
although nice in other ways!
Tony
Stephen Rainsbury
news:op.te3py...@dux.dundee.ac.uk...
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:37:43 +0100, Stephen Rainsbury
> Several times actually ... mostly to that place near Chelmsford.
What Colchester? (Well thats where my unit ended up when they were trying
to get to Chelmsford!)
>
> Never been to Kent though (as far as I know)
If you are looking for hils then come on Down(s) (pun intended)
> Never seen any proper mountains in England ... Scotland and Wales are the
> only ones with lasting impact. Even the Lake District isn't too high,
> although nice in other ways!
Nicer than Kent... damn that's given the plot away :-)
Richard L Clauson
ste...@rainsbury.net-spamnet- - (Stephen Rainsbury) on Wed, 30 Aug 2006
> "Tony Mochan" <to...@mysurname.net> wrote in message
> news:op.te3py...@dux.dundee.ac.uk...
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:37:43 +0100, Stephen Rainsbury
>
> > Several times actually ... mostly to that place near Chelmsford.
>
> What Colchester? (Well thats where my unit ended up when they were
> trying to get to Chelmsford!)
No, Danbury Hill. It's also (sometimes) known as Essex's mountain! :-)
Richard (an ex-AVSL from Chelmsford)
Stephen Rainsbury
news:memo.2006083...@clawhammer.cix.co.uk...
> In article <ahiJg.11162$r61....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>,
> ste...@rainsbury.net-spamnet- - (Stephen Rainsbury) on Wed, 30 Aug 2006
> 15:37:42 GMT wrote:
> No, Danbury Hill. It's also (sometimes) known as Essex's mountain! :-)
Didn't Peter Gabriel sing about that? Oh no hang on that was Solsbury
Hill... mind you it still fits..
Climbing up on Danbury Hill
I could see the city light
Wind was blowing, time stood still
Eagle flew out of the night
Yep that scans nicely.