Cycling accidents - British TV documentary
ed
mostly, and are now working on programme about cycling accidents
involving heavy goods vehicles around the UK.
There have been several accidents, and deaths, in London so far this
year which have been comvered, to some extent, by the press.
But what about accidents outside London around the rest of the
country? We have found these very hard to find. If you know of such
accidents involving heavy good vehicles, outside of London, please get
in touch.
Many thanks. We would like your help.
bugbear
> We make serious documentaries for British TV - BBC and Channel 4
> mostly, and are now working on programme about cycling accidents
> involving heavy goods vehicles around the UK.
>
> There have been several accidents, and deaths, in London so far this
> year which have been comvered, to some extent, by the press.
>
> But what about accidents outside London around the rest of the
> country? We have found these very hard to find.
Are coroners reports not available in some form?
BugBear
Snipe...@yahoo.co.uk
Could you post what production company you are, your company address
and proper details etc... You will get a better response and it seems
only polite if you are looking for information that posters know who
they are posting to so they can make an informed decision about
whether they wish to participate.
IE: the production company that tried to get homeschool parents to
participate in a documentary turned out to be a hatchet company with a
bad reputation which used some very underhand techniques and reporting
styles that non of that community wished to engage with.
If you have nothing to hide then post the details so members can check
you out.
If you don't then I would have to advise others not to respond.
Sniper8052
Mark McNeill
> Could you post what production company you are, your company address
> and proper details etc... You will get a better response and it seems
> only polite if you are looking for information that posters know who
> they are posting to so they can make an informed decision about
> whether they wish to participate.
A quick look online supports his gmail address: a Dr Ed Harriman at that
IP address, who seems well-respected as a documentary maker. If he's
that one, he writes for the London Review of Books, which must count for
something. ;-)
You're right, though; it would at the very least be polite to tell us
who he is.
--
Mark, UK
Just zis Guy, you know?
<markonne...@yahoo.co.uk> said in
<6l0qk5F...@mid.individual.net>:
>A quick look online supports his gmail address: a Dr Ed Harriman at that
>IP address, who seems well-respected as a documentary maker. If he's
>that one, he writes for the London Review of Books, which must count for
>something. ;-)
Seems fair enough. He's unlikely to find many interview subjects,
though, as being crushed by a truck tends to limit your future
participation in TV documentaries :-(
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
Snipe...@yahoo.co.uk
> <6l0qk5F9un9...@mid.individual.net>:
>
> >A quick look online supports his gmail address: a Dr Ed Harriman at that
> >IP address, who seems well-respected as a documentary maker. If he's
> >that one, he writes for the London Review of Books, which must count for
> >something. ;-)
>
> Seems fair enough. He's unlikely to find many interview subjects,
> though, as being crushed by a truck tends to limit your future
> participation in TV documentaries :-(
>
> Guy
> --
>
> 85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
I may be exhibiting 'once bitten twice shy syndrome' but best people
know what they are getting involved with.
It may be there are not that many large vehicle collisions outside of
major urban areas particularly as they tend to be 'anacdotally' left
turn collisions from stationary.
Sniper8052
Ian Jackson
ed <ed.ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>We make serious documentaries for British TV - BBC and Channel 4
>mostly, and are now working on programme about cycling accidents
>involving heavy goods vehicles around the UK.
As a responsibile documentary maker, would you please consider the
secondary message you're sending ?
Obviously it is important to reduce risks. But, overall, cycling is
not a dangerous activity. If we concentrate too much on bad accidents
people will tend to think that cycling is very dangerous. This
reduces the number of people who want to cycle. Fewer people cycling
is bad for congestion and bad for the environment; conversely the more
cyclists there are the more pleasant (and safer) cycling becomes.
I don't know the planned structure of your programme, but it might be
worth you thinking about how to avoid making your viewers pessimistic
about the safety of cycling.
--
Ian Jackson personal email: <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
Squashme
wrote:
And in hyper-busy environments.
OG
"Ian Jackson" <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:BnF*Zc...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> In article
> <6dc36753-ed35-436f...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> ed <ed.ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>We make serious documentaries for British TV - BBC and Channel 4
>>mostly, and are now working on programme about cycling accidents
>>involving heavy goods vehicles around the UK.
>
> As a responsibile documentary maker, would you please consider the
> secondary message you're sending ?
>
> Obviously it is important to reduce risks. But, overall, cycling is
> not a dangerous activity. If we concentrate too much on bad accidents
> people will tend to think that cycling is very dangerous. This
> reduces the number of people who want to cycle. Fewer people cycling
> is bad for congestion and bad for the environment; conversely the more
> cyclists there are the more pleasant (and safer) cycling becomes.
>
> I don't know the planned structure of your programme, but it might be
> worth you thinking about how to avoid making your viewers pessimistic
> about the safety of cycling.
>
consider the 'secondary message' that *you* are sending; which is "don't
give people information that will improve their safety because that only
makes them think it's dangerous"
There is particular risk for cyclists from left turning lorries, and as most
newbie cyclists have probably not received training or read Cyclecraft they
are likely to be unaware of the danger.
Just zis Guy, you know?
<Snipe...@yahoo.co.uk> said in
<b37c0c82-639c-450b...@u57g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>:
>It may be there are not that many large vehicle collisions outside of
>major urban areas particularly as they tend to be 'anacdotally' left
>turn collisions from stationary.
True, this does seem to be mainly a London problem, but as you say
that could just be reporting issues. I know there are high level
meetings about the issue of LGV collisions going on in London right
now.
Andy Carey
From: "ed" <ed.ha...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 10:38 AM
Subject: Cycling accidents - British TV documentary
> But what about accidents outside London around the rest of the
> country? We have found these very hard to find. If you know of such
> accidents involving heavy good vehicles, outside of London, please get
> in touch.
>
> Many thanks. We would like your help.
It may be that fatal cyclist vs HGV accidents predominate in London, and
female riders are more likely to be victims, though this article admits it's
not really known why
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/mar/22/ethicalliving.lifeandhealth1
I tried a brief search for accidents outside London and only turned up one
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7372906.stm
bookieb
> "Ian Jackson" <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:BnF*Zc...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>
> > In article
> > <6dc36753-ed35-436f-b2ae-b1a288386...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> > ed <ed.harri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>We make serious documentaries for British TV - BBC and Channel 4
> >>mostly, and are now working on programme about cycling accidents
> >>involving heavy goods vehicles around the UK.
>
> > As a responsibile documentary maker, would you please consider the
> > secondary message you're sending ?
>
> > Obviously it is important to reduce risks. But, overall, cycling is
> > not a dangerous activity. If we concentrate too much on bad accidents
> > people will tend to think that cycling is very dangerous. This
> > reduces the number of people who want to cycle. Fewer people cycling
> > is bad for congestion and bad for the environment; conversely the more
> > cyclists there are the more pleasant (and safer) cycling becomes.
>
> > I don't know the planned structure of your programme, but it might be
> > worth you thinking about how to avoid making your viewers pessimistic
> > about the safety of cycling.
>
> I think I can see your concerns, but one could just as easily as you to
> consider the 'secondary message' that *you* are sending; which is "don't
> give people information that will improve their safety because that only
> makes them think it's dangerous"
>
> There is particular risk for cyclists from left turning lorries, and as most
> newbie cyclists have probably not received training or read Cyclecraft they
> are likely to be unaware of the danger.
...and which of those two messages are sent depends on how the
documentary is put together, down to music, editing etc.
Regards,
bookieb
bugbear
> True, this does seem to be mainly a London problem, but as you say
> that could just be reporting issues.
Generating statistics from newspaper headlines
is not a good idea.
e.g.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2008/jul/17/crimeisdownbutwhataboutk
Once media interest in a topic has begun, incidents have a much
higher chance of being reported, leading to an apparent "wave"
of incidents, where all that's happening is that reporting
of incidents has increased, not (necessarily)
incidents themselves.
BugBear
bugbear
A tandem ridden by two club cyclists was hit in Diss, but I can't find a web reference.
One of them was killed.
The coroner suggested that it was pretty much their own fault, since
they weren't using the local farcility.
BugBear
Mike Clark
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <guy.c...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 04:06:34 -0700 (PDT), "Snipe...@yahoo.co.uk"
> <Snipe...@yahoo.co.uk> said in
> <b37c0c82-639c-450b...@u57g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>:
>
> >It may be there are not that many large vehicle collisions outside of
> >major urban areas particularly as they tend to be 'anacdotally' left
> >turn collisions from stationary.
>
> True, this does seem to be mainly a London problem, but as you say
> that could just be reporting issues. I know there are high level
> meetings about the issue of LGV collisions going on in London right
> now.
>
There was a prominent example in Cambridge where a cyclist on the
nearside was crushed under the wheels of a lorry entering the
Addenbrookes Hospital site. The junction in question also featured
railings to prevent pedestrians from crossing at the junction but which
probably also contributed to the hazard for cyclists.
Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"
POHB
wrote:
> >It may be there are not that many large vehicle collisions outside of
> >major urban areas particularly as they tend to be 'anacdotally' left
> >turn collisions from stationary.
>
> True, this does seem to be mainly a London problem, but as you say
> that could just be reporting issues.
"The vast majority of these collisions occur in built-up areas, even
though 75% of HGV mileage is on non built-up roads. There is a
particular concentration in London; about one fifth of the fatal HGV/
Cyclist crashes in Great Britain occur in the capital. Almost one
third of the cyclists killed in London, die in a collision with a
HGV2. The problem is especially acute in inner London."
Source ROSPA http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advice/cycling/info/cyclists_and_lorries_factsheet_0206.pdf
The DOT factsheet for 2007 shows there were 32 cyclist fatalities due
to HGV collisions in 2007. Of the 136 total cyclist fatalities 97
were in built-up areas, 39 elsewhere.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/162259/162469/221412/221549/227755/328843/flagbfactsheet.pdf
Jallaphanti
Surely there are other more accurate ways of getting such data than
requesting on an internet forum?
Why not try a freedom of info request to the Department of Transport?
jen
>
> There was a prominent example in Cambridge where a cyclist on the
> nearside was crushed under the wheels of a lorry entering the
> Addenbrookes Hospital site. The junction in question also featured
> railings to prevent pedestrians from crossing at the junction but which
> probably also contributed to the hazard for cyclists.
>
> Mike
Yep - I couldn't find an online link to reports of that one, but
remember it well - being someone who cycles to work there..
Also two others in the vicinity of Cambridge.
Histon (another ex Addenbrookes worker)
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/cn_news_home/displayarticle.asp?id=304804
And a student from Girton
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/cn_news_cambridge/displayarticle.asp?id=290074
So certainly not just a London problem.
Jen
judith
<ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <6dc36753-ed35-436f...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>ed <ed.ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>We make serious documentaries for British TV - BBC and Channel 4
>>mostly, and are now working on programme about cycling accidents
>>involving heavy goods vehicles around the UK.
>
>As a responsibile documentary maker, would you please consider the
>secondary message you're sending ?
>
>Obviously it is important to reduce risks. But, overall, cycling is
>not a dangerous activity.
I disagree - it is when compared to walking.
eg
Latest DfT figures comparing cyclist and pedestrians Killed or
Seriously Injured
Killed and seriously injured casualties Rate per 100 million
Pedal cycle
Passenger Kilometers: 53
Passenger Journeys: 200
Passenger Hours: 640
Pedestrians
Passenger Kilometers: 37
Passenger Journeys: 38
Passenger Hours: 160
Ian Jackson
bookieb <tsgte...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On Oct 7, 12:29 pm, "OG" <o...@gwynnefamily.org.uk> wrote:
>> "Ian Jackson" <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
>> consider the 'secondary message' that *you* are sending; which is "don't
>> give people information that will improve their safety because that only
>> makes them think it's dangerous"
>...and which of those two messages are sent depends on how the
>documentary is put together, down to music, editing etc.
Exactly. I'm just asking that the programme makers consider the
discouragement angle.
Doki
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <guy.c...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:a7eme41a5flcmirmb...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:05:57 +0100, Mark McNeill
> <markonne...@yahoo.co.uk> said in
> <6l0qk5F...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>>A quick look online supports his gmail address: a Dr Ed Harriman at that
>>IP address, who seems well-respected as a documentary maker. If he's
>>that one, he writes for the London Review of Books, which must count for
>>something. ;-)
>
> Seems fair enough. He's unlikely to find many interview subjects,
> though, as being crushed by a truck tends to limit your future
> participation in TV documentaries :-(
Darwinism in action. Cycle into a gap on the left hand side of a truck and
you're asking to be knocked down. The blind spots are big on a panel van, on
a HGV they must be enormous.
Marc
Shroudwaving media scum prefer other people to do their work for them.
Pob
"ed" <ed.ha...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6dc36753-ed35-436f...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
A quick ghoulish google on the search term cyclist killed .uk turns up a a
depressing quantity of deaths.
A chap was killed earlier this year in Edinburgh, he worked in an affiliated
department to the one I work in, and Jason MacIntyre, a very highly regarded
cyclist, was killed up near Fort William at the start of the year.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article3195870.ece
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Cyclist-dragged-under-wheels-of.4031109.jp
The Edinburgh report also includes brief details of two other, fortunately
non-fatal, car vs bike incidents slightly before the fatal incident.
pOB
judith
Hello Round
Still nothing civil to contribute I see.
--
I encourage my children to wear helmets. (Guy Chapman)
Some evidence shows that helmeted cyclists are more likely to hit
their heads. (Guy Chapman)
I have never said that I encourage my children to wear helmets. (Guy
Chapman) - proven to be an outright lie.
He then quickly changed his web page - but "forgot" to change the date
of last amendment
bugbear
> On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:31:41 +0100, Marc
> <initial...@btintenret.com> wrote:
>
>> bugbear wrote:
>>> ed wrote:
>>>> We make serious documentaries for British TV - BBC and Channel 4
>>>> mostly, and are now working on programme about cycling accidents
>>>> involving heavy goods vehicles around the UK.
>>>>
>>>> There have been several accidents, and deaths, in London so far this
>>>> year which have been comvered, to some extent, by the press.
>>>>
>>>> But what about accidents outside London around the rest of the
>>>> country? We have found these very hard to find.
>>> Are coroners reports not available in some form?
>> Shroudwaving media scum prefer other people to do their work for them.
>
>
> Hello Round
>
> Still nothing civil to contribute I see.
And yet strangely apposite all the same.
BugBear
judith
The guy comes here with a reasonable request - a simple check
indicates that he is probably above board - others sensibly ask for
more info' - but all Round can do is give a gratuitous insult by
referring to him as "Shroudwaving media scum"
--
If you're going to make snide insinuations about the author,
as you undoubtedly did, then you can fuck right off. (Guy Chapman)
If you are going to make accusations about someone, then you need to
be able to substantiate when asked to. (Judith Smith)
Harry Erwin
> On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 04:06:34 -0700 (PDT), "Snipe...@yahoo.co.uk"
> <Snipe...@yahoo.co.uk> said in
> <b37c0c82-639c-450b...@u57g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>:
>
> >It may be there are not that many large vehicle collisions outside of
> >major urban areas particularly as they tend to be 'anacdotally' left
> >turn collisions from stationary.
>
> True, this does seem to be mainly a London problem, but as you say
> that could just be reporting issues. I know there are high level
> meetings about the issue of LGV collisions going on in London right
> now.
>
> Guy
Not just a London problem--I had a close call yesterday when a HGV made
a two-lane change through me (in the middle lane headed into a
roundabout). Probably not as common here in the north as the traffic
isn't quite as insane as in London. I suspect it has to do with
enforcement.
--
Harry Erwin <http://www.theworld.com/~herwin>
My neuroscience wikiwiki is at
<http://scat-he-g4.sunderland.ac.uk/~harryerw/phpwiki/index.php>
wafflycat
"bugbear" <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim> wrote in message
news:ovudnfdmz9BpyHbV...@posted.plusnet...
Bruce Bursford, former cycling world record holder, was killed on the A47,
Norfolk, by an HGV driver, in 2000. He was hit from behind by a tipper
truck. The driver was err... distracted by his mobile phone... 'accident'
John Kane
Not necessarily, at least as a check on other sources or a first
sweep. URC readers are probably the main group in the UK who are
intensely interested in such a topic. There is probably more
expertise on safe cycling, cycling injuries, road design as related to
safe cycling and even gasp helmets here than anywhere else in the UK.
What participants down know they probably know who does or how to find
it.
John Kane Kingston
David Hansen
<ed.ha...@gmail.com> wrote this:-
>We make serious documentaries for British TV - BBC and Channel 4
>mostly,
Though you have not said who "we" are.
>and are now working on programme about cycling accidents
>involving heavy goods vehicles around the UK.
You used the a-word several times. If you were making a serious
documentary you would not use the a-word so much.
My impression of your posting is that you are part of the problem,
rather than the solution.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
News
It does seem impossible to find a central repository for road deaths,
let alone large vehicle road deaths, by use of the internet. An example
of to much information obscuring the required data. Given this the most
accurate method of data collection might be to request the fatal
collision reports from police forces around the country and then to
discard the data that does not relate to large vehicles. Comment could
then be sought from URC members about specific cases which might then
raise better and more informed debate.
As David mentions the use of the word accident is 'unfortunate' as it
implies the poster has fallen into the common trap of ascribing
collisions as 'non-fault' occurrences. It is worthy of note that UK
police no longer describe collisions as 'accidents' and that the City of
London incident board on Lower Thames Street J/W Southwark Bridge scene
of a recent large vehicle v cyclist death describes the incident with
the non attributable phrase 'Road Death'. This topic has to my memory
been discussed at length on URC and it may be beneficial to the poster
to understand the influence of this discussion on road safety. I shall
leave posting of such links to more technical with better knowledge of
the relevant topic threads.
Sniper8052
calum
wrote:
> On Oct 7, 10:38 am, ed <ed.harri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > We make serious documentaries for British TV - BBC and Channel 4
> > mostly, and are now working on programme about cycling accidents
> > involving heavy goods vehicles around the UK.
>
> > There have been several accidents, and deaths, in London so far this
> > year which have been comvered, to some extent, by the press.
>
> > But what about accidents outside London around the rest of the
> > country? We have found these very hard to find. If you know of such
> > accidents involving heavy good vehicles, outside of London, please get
> > in touch.
>
> > Many thanks. We would like your help.
>
> and proper details etc...
From another group I frequent:
"Cambridge Cycling Campaign has been contacted by a film
company who are trying to make a film (for Panorama he believes) about
left
turning HGVs and Cyclists. Their last attempt a year ago failed
because they
could not find significant recently reported incidents outside of
London,
Cambridge and Oxford. Without more 'National' significance the program
is not
considered viable.
If you know of any serious incidents, even if all you know is a
reference in the
press, could you please contact:
Ed Harriman
Producer/Director
Brook Lapping Productions
London
Ten Alps PLC
The factual media company
http://www.tenalps.com"
Hope that helps.
Calum