Critical Mass rider rammed by bus driver.
Doug
and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork. The police were in
attendance but it took some time to free the wheel. So the impatience
and recklessness of the bus driver caused a considerable traffic hold
up in Trafalgar Square. The mass of CM riders had long since continued
on their way so the hold up was not due to them.
Throughout the ride many drivers, mainly motorists, exhibited
considerable impatience and irritability and some actually tried to
intimidate their way through the humble cyclists by nosing forward
regardless and thus threatening their safety. It is not known at this
stage how many were actually rammed.
--
Critical Mass London
http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk
"Get out of my way you f*ing cyclist".
Bambleweeny57
> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver rammed a cyclist and
> his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork. The police were in
> attendance but it took some time to free the wheel. So the impatience
> and recklessness of the bus driver caused a considerable traffic hold up
> in Trafalgar Square. The mass of CM riders had long since continued on
> their way so the hold up was not due to them.
>
> Throughout the ride many drivers, mainly motorists, exhibited
> considerable impatience and irritability and some actually tried to
> intimidate their way through the humble cyclists by nosing forward
> regardless and thus threatening their safety. It is not known at this
> stage how many were actually rammed.
Given your own, very personal, approach to balanced and unbiased
reporting I can only hope the bus driver was not hurt in the incident.
BW
Ian
> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver rammed a cyclist
> and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork.
Why do you hate public transport?
Ian
webreader
> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver
alegedly
> rammed a cyclist
> and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork. The police were in
> attendance but it took some time to free the wheel. So the
aledged
> impatience
> and recklessness of the bus driver caused a considerable traffic hold
> up in Trafalgar Square. The mass of CM riders had long since continued
> on their way so the hold up was not due to them.
So if the incident was not due to CM, the the cyclist involved was not
part of CM?
>
> Throughout the ride many drivers, mainly motorists, exhibited
> considerable impatience and irritability
probably due to being needless held up.
> and some actually tried to
> intimidate their way through the humble cyclists by nosing forward
trying to make progress
> regardless and thus threatening their safety. It is not known at this
> stage how many were actually rammed.
It is also not know how many of CM provoked trouble & rammed cars.
>
> --
> Critical Mass Londonhttp://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk
> "Get out of my way you f*ing cyclist".
Well yet again CM has achieved its purpose, to delibratly provoke an
incident.
WSR
Doug
> On Oct 31, 6:36 am, Doug <jag...@riseup.net> wrote:
>
> > During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver
>
> alegedly
>
>
> > rammed a cyclist
> > and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork. The police were in
> > attendance but it took some time to free the wheel. So the
>
> aledged
>
>
> > impatience
> > and recklessness of the bus driver caused a considerable traffic hold
> > up in Trafalgar Square. The mass of CM riders had long since continued
> > on their way so the hold up was not due to them.
>
> So if the incident was not due to CM, the the cyclist involved was not
> part of CM?
>
>
>
> > Throughout the ride many drivers, mainly motorists, exhibited
> > considerable impatience and irritability
>
> probably due to being needless held up.
>
evenings in Central London there are always massive traffic jams
caused by drivers. Maybe that is why the drivers themselves are so
impatient and reckless.
>
> > and some actually tried to
> > intimidate their way through the humble cyclists by nosing forward
>
> trying to make progress
>
>
> > regardless and thus threatening their safety. It is not known at this
> > stage how many were actually rammed.
>
> It is also not know how many of CM provoked trouble & rammed cars.
>
>
>
> Well yet again CM has achieved its purpose, to delibratly provoke an
> incident.
>
threatened by dangerous and impatient drivers.
--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
All public road users are equal but some are more equal than others.
Happi Monday
> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver rammed a cyclist
> and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork. The police were in
> attendance but it took some time to free the wheel. So the impatience
> and recklessness of the bus driver caused a considerable traffic hold
> up in Trafalgar Square. The mass of CM riders had long since continued
> on their way so the hold up was not due to them.
>
> Throughout the ride many drivers, mainly motorists, exhibited
> considerable impatience and irritability and some actually tried to
> intimidate their way through the humble cyclists by nosing forward
> regardless and thus threatening their safety. It is not known at this
> stage how many were actually rammed.
He/she deserved it. It's this sort of selfishness that encourages
drivers to exhibit anti-cycling behaviour in their everyday driving.
Happi
Tony Dragon
> On 31 Oct, 08:54, webreader <websiterea...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Oct 31, 6:36 am, Doug <jag...@riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>>> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver
>> alegedly
>>
> Video to follow.
Can't wait
>>> rammed a cyclist
>>> and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork. The police were in
>>> attendance but it took some time to free the wheel. So the
>> aledged
>>
> Video to follow.
See above.
>>> impatience
>>> and recklessness of the bus driver caused a considerable traffic hold
>>> up in Trafalgar Square. The mass of CM riders had long since continued
>>> on their way so the hold up was not due to them.
>> So if the incident was not due to CM, the the cyclist involved was not
>> part of CM?
>>
> So you think that justifies being rammed?
So no answer to the question then.
>>
>>> Throughout the ride many drivers, mainly motorists, exhibited
>>> considerable impatience and irritability
>> probably due to being needless held up.
>>
> Heaven forbid that anyone is held up! Oh wait though! On Friday
> evenings in Central London there are always massive traffic jams
> caused by drivers. Maybe that is why the drivers themselves are so
> impatient and reckless.
So why make the jams worse?
>>> and some actually tried to
>>> intimidate their way through the humble cyclists by nosing forward
>> trying to make progress
>>
> Selfishly regardless of the welfare of others, as usual.
Unlike CM then?
>>> regardless and thus threatening their safety. It is not known at this
>>> stage how many were actually rammed.
>> It is also not know how many of CM provoked trouble & rammed cars.
>>
> Why would they need to ram cars when they can easily filter past?
If they could easily filter past then there would be no problem.
>>
>> Well yet again CM has achieved its purpose, to delibratly provoke an
>> incident.
>>
> No to expose the plight of vulnerable cyclists on our roads today when
> threatened by dangerous and impatient drivers.
>
> --
> UK Radical Campaigns
> www.zing.icom43.net
> All public road users are equal but some are more equal than others.
>
No, to do their best to provoke trouble.
--
Tony Dragon
Doug
Bambleweeny57
Few, if any, deliberately set out en-masse to bugger up somebody else's
day.
BW
Squashme
No, not deliberately, I'm sure, but they do bugger up the day (and
indeed the world). And they are selfishness writ large.
Bambleweeny57
Only in your religion...
BW
Doug
> Doug wrote:
> > On 31 Oct, 08:54, webreader <websiterea...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Oct 31, 6:36 am, Doug <jag...@riseup.net> wrote:
>
> >>> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver
> >> alegedly
>
> > Video to follow.
>
> Can't wait
>
http://www.archive.org/details/CM30-10-09
--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
One man's democracy is another man's regime.
Happi Monday
>> He/she deserved it. It's this sort of selfishness that encourages
>> drivers to exhibit anti-cycling behaviour in their everyday driving.
>>
> You don't regard motorists as selfish too?
Yes, some are very selfish.
The minority that show ant-cyclist behaviour and those that simply have
no road craft are arseholes, but "critical massing" is not just
provocative but simply a stupid idea from small-minded pricks.
Tony Dragon
> On 31 Oct, 11:16, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 31 Oct, 08:54, webreader <websiterea...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Oct 31, 6:36 am, Doug <jag...@riseup.net> wrote:
>>>>> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver
>>>> alegedly
>>> Video to follow.
>> Can't wait
>>
> Now try to refute the evidence of your own eyes, if you can.
>
> http://www.archive.org/details/CM30-10-09
>
> --
> UK Radical Campaigns
> www.zing.icom43.net
> One man's democracy is another man's regime.
Very good, I used my own eyes & saw the aftermath of an incident between
a bus & a bike, no idea what happened & no indication on the video.
I also saw cases of obstruction, cycling without lights & cycling on
footways.
I also saw one or two cyclists giving proper (HC) signals
--
Tony Dragon
Bambleweeny57
> On 31 Oct, 11:16, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>> > On 31 Oct, 08:54, webreader <websiterea...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> On Oct 31, 6:36 am, Doug <jag...@riseup.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver
>> >> alegedly
>>
>> > Video to follow.
>>
>> Can't wait
>>
> Now try to refute the evidence of your own eyes, if you can.
>
> http://www.archive.org/details/CM30-10-09
Excellent evidence... of a bunch of loudmouth louts setting out to make
life as difficult as possible for the people around them. I especially
loved the bit at the end where a group of protesters taunt the police.
I'm sure it was intended to provoke a response at which point the
protesters would have screamed "POLICE BRUTALITY!!".
I would like to have seen some actual evidence of your claim that a rider
was rammed by a bus. As it is all we see is a cycle wedged against a bus
with no indication of how it got there.
BW
Tony Dragon
Yes I forgot to mention that, if it was the other way round it would
have been intimidation.
--
Tony Dragon
PeterG
So that is your idea of evidence then?
PeterG
Doug
female passenger, threatened to ram their way through a bunch of
cyclists and could be heard to make contact with one.
--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
Doug
training of drivers? If nothing else, CM does at least demonstrate how
some impatient drivers behave towards cyclists, in an aggressive
brutal manner using a car as a weapon, which otherwise might pass
unnoticed when inflicted on individual cyclists.
Bambleweeny57
A car surrounded by a baying mob moving a few inches has what to do with
the claim a bus rammed a cyclist?
CM go out of their way to provoke ordinary people and seem to regard it
as some sort of victory when they goad or scare someone into doing
something they would not normally do. Is that you aim... to bully and
scare people?
BW
Doug
ongoing topic and regular occurrence world-wide, as a simple Google
search will show. The amazing fact is that it seems drivers are
allowed to get away with it.
>
> CM go out of their way to provoke ordinary people and seem to regard it
> as some sort of victory when they goad or scare someone into doing
> something they would not normally do. Is that you aim... to bully and
> scare people?
>
for a few extra minutes for CM riders, aka procession, to pass. What
they don't seem bothered by is that by confronting the cyclists
aggressively that will cause further hold-ups, not just for them but
for many other drivers behind them, who they obviously don't give a
damn about in their competitive and dangerous grab for their own
personal road space.
What drivers don't seem to realise either is their attempt to
intimidate a large group of cyclists can have a very different outcome
than their usual intimidation of hapless individual cyclists.
Bambleweeny57
I've read many "claims" of riders being rammed but seen very little
evidence. Yet again you run away from the main point that you claim to
have evidence a bus driver ramming a cyclist but YOU SHOW NO SUCH
EVIDENCE, unless there's something else you're not showing us.
>> CM go out of their way to provoke ordinary people and seem to regard it
>> as some sort of victory when they goad or scare someone into doing
>> something they would not normally do. Is that you aim... to bully and
>> scare people?
>>
> What it demonstrated is the impatience of some drivers who cannot wait
> for a few extra minutes for CM riders, aka procession, to pass.
Given the loud, aggressive tactics of large numbers of riders I'd put
drivers behaviour down to stress or fear rather than impatience.
> What they don't seem bothered by is that by confronting the cyclists
> aggressively
CM riders go out of their way to create flashpoints and provoke
confrontation (as your video so clearly demonstrates), and don't seem
bothered by the distress they cause ordinary people.
BW
Tony Dragon
You seem to have missed what was posted, quote "I would like to have
seen some actual evidence of your claim that a riderwas rammed by a bus.
As it is all we see is a cycle wedged against a bus with no indication
of how it got there.
or
"I used my own eyes & saw the aftermath of an incident between a bus & a
bike, no idea what happened & no indication on the video.
--
Tony Dragon
Tony Dragon
Many have read your previous posts & come to the conclusion that there
is no evidence of a rider being rammed, but this thread is about your
claim that a bus rammed a rider, but you have again provided no proof.
>> CM go out of their way to provoke ordinary people and seem to regard it
>> as some sort of victory when they goad or scare someone into doing
>> something they would not normally do. Is that you aim... to bully and
>> scare people?
>>
> What it demonstrated is the impatience of some drivers who cannot wait
> for a few extra minutes for CM riders, aka procession, to pass. What
> they don't seem bothered by is that by confronting the cyclists
> aggressively that will cause further hold-ups, not just for them but
> for many other drivers behind them, who they obviously don't give a
> damn about in their competitive and dangerous grab for their own
> personal road space.
>
> What drivers don't seem to realise either is their attempt to
> intimidate a large group of cyclists can have a very different outcome
> than their usual intimidation of hapless individual cyclists.
>
> --
> UK Radical Campaigns
> www.zing.icom43.net
> All public road users are equal but some are more equal than others.
>
>
>
Are you mean like the intimidation of the police by trying to provoke a
confrontation.
Oh by the way you did not comment about the other laws that CM broke on
that video.
--
Tony Dragon
Bambleweeny57
>>>
>>> http://www.archive.org/details/CM30-10-09
>>>
>>> --
>>> UK Radical Campaignswww.zing.icom43.net One man's democracy is another
>>> man's regime.
>>
>>So that is your idea of evidence then?
>>
>>PeterG
>
> would appear to be conclusive.
I take it you've never ridden a bike then...
BW
Tony Dragon
> PeterG <peter...@yahoo.co.uk> considered Sun, 1 Nov 2009 04:36:48
> would appear to be conclusive.
As you were obviously there, could you give us your eye-witness account?
--
Tony Dragon
Paul Cummins
<bbc1bf6f-0b4e-4e25...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
jag...@riseup.net (Doug) wrote:
> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver rammed a cyclist
> and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork.
Didn't look like a "ram" to me... looked like the bus crept forward and
misjudged...
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
mileburner
"Paul Cummins" <uset...@stedphone.invalid> wrote in message
news:memo.2009110...@cix.co.uk...
> In article
> <bbc1bf6f-0b4e-4e25...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> jag...@riseup.net (Doug) wrote:
>
>> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver rammed a cyclist
>> and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork.
>
> Didn't look like a "ram" to me... looked like the bus crept forward and
> misjudged...
You are probably right but that is what happens when you drive too close.
Doug
> PeterG <petergra...@yahoo.co.uk> considered Sun, 1 Nov 2009 04:36:48
> -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
> would appear to be conclusive.
>
of traffic behind it. These motorist jokers continue to protest that
the commonplace ramming of cyclists never happens, despite the
evidence of their own eyes and the results of a simple Google search.
What are they trying to cover up? Maybe it is the fact that these
rammers of cyclists are seldom if ever punished for their actions, by
their police motorist chums.
Also, further on in the video a 4x4 monstrosity is clearly heard to
hit a bicycle as it is seen to nose forward into the crowd.
--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
A driving licence is a licence to kill.
Tony Dragon
I'm at a loss to see what the bus being unable to reverse (if true) has
got to do with anything.
The point is there is no evidence in that video of what happened, nobody
has posted anything about what you say being tue or not, only that the
evidence is not there.
--
Tony Dragon
Tony Dragon
we just don't know from that video which was taken after the event.
--
Tony Dragon
mileburner
"Tony Dragon" <tony....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:s5idnbcEiM19AHPX...@bt.com...
Sideways? The rear wheel was upright but wedged under the front of the bus.
The only way that could have happened is by the bus getting too close.
Tony Dragon
Well yes, if the bus wasn't close it would not have happened.
My point is that Doug presented the video as evidence that the bus
'rammed' the cyclist, the video did not present such evidence.
--
Tony Dragon
mileburner
> mileburner wrote:
>>
>> Sideways? The rear wheel was upright but wedged under the front of the
>> bus. The only way that could have happened is by the bus getting too
>> close.
> Well yes, if the bus wasn't close it would not have happened.
>
> My point is that Doug presented the video as evidence that the bus
> 'rammed' the cyclist, the video did not present such evidence.
"Hit from behind at low speed" might be a better description.
I doubt if there would be any bus driver who valued their job, who would
intentionally ram a cyclist.
Tony Dragon
Very true, but I still maintain that the video did not provide evidence
of the incident only of what happened after.
--
Tony Dragon
Bambleweeny57
Why do you preclude the possibility of the cyclist ramming his machine
backwards into the bus?
On the one hand we have a driver with a bus full of passengers watching
what is going on, and who would be risking his job if he rammed a cyclist.
On the other hand we have a militant cyclist prepared to bugger up
peoples lives to make a point.
I know where my money would go.
BW
mileburner
"Phil W Lee" <phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote in message
news:sh1ve5plt2q2im4h0...@4ax.com...
> Bambleweeny57 <he...@there.invalid> considered Mon, 02 Nov 2009
>>
>>Why do you preclude the possibility of the cyclist ramming his machine
>>backwards into the bus?
>>
> Maybe because he understands physics?
> If the bus wasn't moving forwards, the wheel would not get jammed, it
> would just bounce off the bus.
Thanks Phil. For the rear wheel to get in such a position wedged under the
bus, the bus must have been moving and I suspect that a small movement in
the suspension had a lot to do with getting the wheel wedged where it ended
up.
Bambleweeny57
> Bambleweeny57 <he...@there.invalid> considered Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:43:00
> GMT the perfect time to write:
>
>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:30:28 +0000, mileburner wrote:
>>
>>> "Tony Dragon" <tony....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>> news:s5idnbcEiM19AHPX...@bt.com...
>>>> mileburner wrote:
>>>>> "Paul Cummins" <uset...@stedphone.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>> news:memo.2009110...@cix.co.uk...
>>>>>> In article
>>>>>> <bbc1bf6f-0b4e-4e25...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>> jag...@riseup.net (Doug) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver rammed a
>>>>>>> cyclist and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork.
>>>>>> Didn't look like a "ram" to me... looked like the bus crept forward
>>>>>> and misjudged...
>>>>>
>>>>> You are probably right but that is what happens when you drive too
>>>>> close.
>>>> It might also be that the cyclist suddenly pulled in front of the
>>>> bus, we just don't know from that video which was taken after the
>>>> event.
>>>
>>> Sideways? The rear wheel was upright but wedged under the front of the
>>> bus. The only way that could have happened is by the bus getting too
>>> close.
>>
>>Why do you preclude the possibility of the cyclist ramming his machine
>>backwards into the bus?
>>
> Maybe because he understands physics? If the bus wasn't moving forwards,
> the wheel would not get jammed, it would just bounce off the bus.
Don't be silly... it would be perfectly possible to push a bike under a
bus to the degree displayed on the video.
BW
Doug
> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:25:54 +0000, Phil W Lee wrote:
> > GMT the perfect time to write:
>
> >>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:30:28 +0000, mileburner wrote:
>
> >>>news:s5idnbcEiM19AHPX...@bt.com...
> >>>> mileburner wrote:
> >>>>> "Paul Cummins" <useth...@stedphone.invalid> wrote in message
> >>>>>news:memo.2009110...@cix.co.uk...
> >>>>>> In article
> >>>>>> <bbc1bf6f-0b4e-4e25-a648-aed92ae2b...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> >>>>>> jag...@riseup.net (Doug) wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver rammed a
> >>>>>>> cyclist and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork.
> >>>>>> Didn't look like a "ram" to me... looked like the bus crept forward
> >>>>>> and misjudged...
>
> >>>>> You are probably right but that is what happens when you drive too
> >>>>> close.
> >>>> It might also be that the cyclist suddenly pulled in front of the
> >>>> bus, we just don't know from that video which was taken after the
> >>>> event.
>
> >>> Sideways? The rear wheel was upright but wedged under the front of the
> >>> bus. The only way that could have happened is by the bus getting too
> >>> close.
>
> >>Why do you preclude the possibility of the cyclist ramming his machine
> >>backwards into the bus?
>
> > Maybe because he understands physics? If the bus wasn't moving forwards,
> > the wheel would not get jammed, it would just bounce off the bus.
>
> Don't be silly... it would be perfectly possible to push a bike under a
> bus to the degree displayed on the video.
>
option? Could it be that you wish to vindicate all drivers who ram
cyclists?
--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
Bambleweeny57
Show me evidence of a driver ramming a cycle under normal circumstances
and I will readily condemn him/her.
All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of loudmouth
louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and intimidating
other road users.
BW
Doug
every day worldwide in order to condemn it? Do you think that CM is a
special circumstance that in some way justifies being rammed?
>
> All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of loudmouth
> louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and intimidating
> other road users.
>
--
Critical Mass London
http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk
"Get out of my way you f*ing cyclist".
Tony Dragon
Doug, you posted that this video showed a cyclist being rammed by a bus,
if the bus did come into contact with the cycle & it was the bus drivers
fault (or part fault) then I will agree that the drivers actions were wrong.
But the video does not show the event only the result of the event.
As far a cherry picking goes you did not comment on these points
"I also saw cases of obstruction, cycling without lights & cycling on
footways.
I also saw one or two cyclists giving proper (HC) signals "
--
Tony Dragon
mileburner
"Bambleweeny57" <he...@there.invalid> wrote in message
news:siQHm.1189$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> Don't be silly... it would be perfectly possible to push a bike under a
> bus to the degree displayed on the video.
Sure, and if Popeye the Sailor Man was there to lift up the bus the cyclist
could easily wedge the bike under the front.
Life is not a cartoon...
Doug
> if the bus did come into contact with the cycle & it was the bus drivers
> fault (or part fault) then I will agree that the drivers actions were wrong.
>
>
> But the video does not show the event only the result of the event.
>
slow motion of the actual ramming as it takes place with accompanying
interviews with the witnesses? Sorry, I don't have the time to pander
to your stringent requirements, especially when you contribute little
or nothing yourself by way of evidence to the debate.
>
> As far a cherry picking goes you did not comment on these points
>
> "I also saw cases of obstruction, cycling without lights & cycling on
> footways.
>
that those actions justify being rammed? There seems to be a
suggestion here on this NG that the deliberate obstruction of a
motorist for several minutes justifies the driver ramming the cyclist
out of the way. Something he would never dream of doing to another
car. Are you and others here finally admitting then that there is an
unspoken agreement which deems it OK for a motorist to use a car as a
weapon to force vulnerable road users out of the way?
>
> I also saw one or two cyclists giving proper (HC) signals "
>
with differing aims so no surprise there then.
--
Critical Mass London
http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk
"More bikes, fewer cars!".
Tony Dragon
So we are agreed there.
>> But the video does not show the event only the result of the event.
>>
> So? There were also plenty of witnesses. What do you want, a view in
> slow motion of the actual ramming as it takes place with accompanying
> interviews with the witnesses? Sorry, I don't have the time to pander
> to your stringent requirements, especially when you contribute little
> or nothing yourself by way of evidence to the debate.
Are, stringent requirements AKA evidence.
>> As far a cherry picking goes you did not comment on these points
>>
>> "I also saw cases of obstruction, cycling without lights & cycling on
>> footways.
>>
> See threat title. This is about tamming.
Leaving aside the typo, are you saying that a thread should not evolve,
that seems like it could be censorship.
> Are you suggesting somehow
> that those actions justify being rammed?
Did I say or infer that, I think not, just see what I said earlier about
ramming.
> There seems to be a
> suggestion here on this NG that the deliberate obstruction of a
> motorist for several minutes justifies the driver ramming the cyclist
> out of the way.
I have made no such suggestion, but there was obstruction shown on the
video.
> Something he would never dream of doing to another
> car. Are you and others here finally admitting then that there is an
> unspoken agreement which deems it OK for a motorist to use a car as a
> weapon to force vulnerable road users out of the way?
Have I ever said that?
>> I also saw one or two cyclists giving proper (HC) signals "
>>
> As I keep on pointing out, CM attracts a diversity of participants
> with differing aims so no surprise there then.
>
> --
> Critical Mass London
> http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk
> "More bikes, fewer cars!".
Pity a few more do not give correct signals.
For instance to many road users do not give left turn signals when
intending to leave a main road, other road users may be waiting to turn
left into the main road & so have to needlessly wait.
--
Tony Dragon
Bambleweeny57
>> Show me evidence of a driver ramming a cycle under normal circumstances
>> and I will readily condemn him/her.
>>
> Why would you require absolute evidence of something that happens every
> day worldwide in order to condemn it?
Prove it! This is the first of your videos I've watched and it shows no
such act. In my 45 years of cycling & 25 years of driving I have never
seen such thing.
> Do you think that CM is a special
> circumstance that in some way justifies being rammed?
Given that they explicitly, deliberately put themselves in situations
where contact is all but inevitable they make themselves a special case.
There is no justification for a malicious act of violence by either
driver or CM activist but I'm not going to condemn a driver who finds
himself at the wrong end of a situation deliberately engineered to
provoke an incident.
>> All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of
>> loudmouth louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and
>> intimidating other road users.
>>
> Why do you choose to cherry-pick some video evidence and not others?
Cherry-pick !!! The bulk of the video you posted was cyclists behaving
badly. If there's any cherry-picking going on here it you selecting the
one incident with the bus from everything and even that one is open to
question.
And whilst we're on the subject of cherry-picking why are so selective
about the issues you choose to respond to?
BW
PeterG
Because he can give no answers that back up his point of view.
PeterG
PeterG
wrote:
> Bambleweeny57 <h...@there.invalid> considered Tue, 03 Nov 2009
> 06:43:36 GMT the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
> >On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:25:54 +0000, Phil W Lee wrote:
>
> >> GMT the perfect time to write:
>
> >>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:30:28 +0000, mileburner wrote:
>
> >>>>news:s5idnbcEiM19AHPX...@bt.com...
> >>>>> mileburner wrote:
> >>>>>> "Paul Cummins" <useth...@stedphone.invalid> wrote in message
> >>>>>>news:memo.2009110...@cix.co.uk...
> >>>>>>> In article
> >>>>>>> <bbc1bf6f-0b4e-4e25-a648-aed92ae2b...@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> >>>>>>> jag...@riseup.net (Doug) wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> During last night's Critical Mass ride a bus driver rammed a
> >>>>>>>> cyclist and his rear tyre was trapped by the bus bodywork.
> >>>>>>> Didn't look like a "ram" to me... looked like the bus crept forward
> >>>>>>> and misjudged...
>
> >>>>>> You are probably right but that is what happens when you drive too
> >>>>>> close.
> >>>>> It might also be that the cyclist suddenly pulled in front of the
> >>>>> bus, we just don't know from that video which was taken after the
> >>>>> event.
>
> >>>> Sideways? The rear wheel was upright but wedged under the front of the
> >>>> bus. The only way that could have happened is by the bus getting too
> >>>> close.
>
> >>>Why do you preclude the possibility of the cyclist ramming his machine
> >>>backwards into the bus?
>
> >> Maybe because he understands physics? If the bus wasn't moving forwards,
> >> the wheel would not get jammed, it would just bounce off the bus.
> >Don't be silly... it would be perfectly possible to push a bike under a
> >bus to the degree displayed on the video.
>
> it there.
If such a jack would be required, then how could a rear end bump do
the same thing?
PeterG
Dave Kahn
> I especially loved the bit at the end where a group of protesters taunt
> the police. I'm sure it was intended to provoke a response at which
> point the protesters would have screamed "POLICE BRUTALITY!!".
The police car was parked up and was empty. The two officers from it
were trying to clear cyclists from the Victoria Memorial.
--
Dave...
mileburner
>
> If such a jack would be required, then how could a rear end bump do
> the same thing?
A bus's suspension tends to bounce around a little when the bus comes to a
halt or moves away.
I can't believe this actually needs pointing out. Just have a look at the
front end of a bus when it stops.
Trevor A Panther
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
"Phil W Lee" <phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk> wrote in message
news:j3g0f5hg0ukkdjom0...@4ax.com...
> Bambleweeny57 <he...@there.invalid> considered Tue, 03 Nov 2009
> it there.
My opinion of "troll wrestling" has been well recorded.
I find it even more stultifying when posters "escape" to urcm but insist on
continuing with endless wrestling on urc.
Take your opinions and your wrestling activities to urcm and stop doing it
on here. A sort of "Marie Antionnette" updated --" having your cake and
eatintg it". Well certainly feeding them them with endless "cake"
if you were so concerned about the degradation of urc due to endless
wrestling matches -- why are you continuing doing it on here. Do it on urcm
and stop doing it on here.
If it is a real cycling topic then it should be dealt with on urcm! So do it
there!
This is not just addressed to Phil W Lee but many other who just insist on
continuing to stir the pot.here on urc. I certainly include "just this guy"
Chapman who continues to spout on here despite being purer than pure on
urcm. And even my friend Tom Crispin cannot stop responding to judith in her
many aliases.
I could be very very impolite. but all I will say is -- leave urc alone and
go elsewhere!
If you want urcm to be cleaner than clean then do your wrestling there --
oh but you can't!
So don't come here and do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So tell me why this is not being discussed on urcm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
From
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom
soup
> Also it is stated in the video that the bus couldn't reverse because
> of traffic behind it.
I thought most(all?)bus companies didn't allow reversing without a
suitably trained and qualified banksman.
Doug
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:33:00 -0800, Doug wrote:
> >> Show me evidence of a driver ramming a cycle under normal circumstances
> >> and I will readily condemn him/her.
>
> > Why would you require absolute evidence of something that happens every
> > day worldwide in order to condemn it?
>
> Prove it! This is the first of your videos I've watched and it shows no
> such act. In my 45 years of cycling & 25 years of driving I have never
> seen such thing.
>
witnessed several deliberate rammings during CM rides.
If you doubt that it happens at all to cyclists try Googling for it
where you will find plenty of examples.
>
> > Do you think that CM is a special
> > circumstance that in some way justifies being rammed?
>
> Given that they explicitly, deliberately put themselves in situations
> where contact is all but inevitable they make themselves a special case.
> There is no justification for a malicious act of violence by either
> driver or CM activist but I'm not going to condemn a driver who finds
> himself at the wrong end of a situation deliberately engineered to
> provoke an incident.
>
The only provocation is from the impatient motorist who cannot wait a
few minutes for a legitimate procession to pass. When they try to nose
into that procession the confrontation begins.
>
> >> All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of
> >> loudmouth louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and
> >> intimidating other road users.
>
> > Why do you choose to cherry-pick some video evidence and not others?
>
> Cherry-pick !!! The bulk of the video you posted was cyclists behaving
> badly. If there's any cherry-picking going on here it you selecting the
> one incident with the bus from everything and even that one is open to
> question.
>
What about the other rammer and all that provocative hooting and abuse
which you and other motorists here choose to selectively ignore? Also
the video cannot possibly cover every incident that takes place during
a ride.
>
> And whilst we're on the subject of cherry-picking why are so selective
> about the issues you choose to respond to?
>
You are confusing issues with evidence.
--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
Doug
ramming, as always. It is such an unpleasant and physically aggressive
act against cyclists, which always seem to pass unpunished, that they
dare not admit it takes place at all by their fellow motorists with
whom they are bound to identify, much to their shame.
Tony Dragon
> On 3 Nov, 14:23, Bambleweeny57 <h...@there.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:33:00 -0800, Doug wrote:
>>>> Show me evidence of a driver ramming a cycle under normal circumstances
>>>> and I will readily condemn him/her.
>>> Why would you require absolute evidence of something that happens every
>>> day worldwide in order to condemn it?
>> Prove it! This is the first of your videos I've watched and it shows no
>> such act. In my 45 years of cycling & 25 years of driving I have never
>> seen such thing.
>>
> Your anecdotal is worthless and cannot be verified. I can claim I have
> witnessed several deliberate rammings during CM rides.
Well my anecdotal evidence is that in 40 plus years of using vehicles on
public roads I have never seen a cyclist deliberately rammed & only one
instance of a car doing it, and as that was in Brixton in 1981 I didn't
wait to see the result.
>
> If you doubt that it happens at all to cyclists try Googling for it
> where you will find plenty of examples.
>>> Do you think that CM is a special
>>> circumstance that in some way justifies being rammed?
>> Given that they explicitly, deliberately put themselves in situations
>> where contact is all but inevitable they make themselves a special case.
>> There is no justification for a malicious act of violence by either
>> driver or CM activist but I'm not going to condemn a driver who finds
>> himself at the wrong end of a situation deliberately engineered to
>> provoke an incident.
>>
> The only provocation is from the impatient motorist who cannot wait a
> few minutes for a legitimate procession to pass. When they try to nose
> into that procession the confrontation begins.
Many on CM try to provoke an incident.
>>>> All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of
>>>> loudmouth louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and
>>>> intimidating other road users.
>>> Why do you choose to cherry-pick some video evidence and not others?
>> Cherry-pick !!! The bulk of the video you posted was cyclists behaving
>> badly. If there's any cherry-picking going on here it you selecting the
>> one incident with the bus from everything and even that one is open to
>> question.
>>
> What about the other rammer and all that provocative hooting and abuse
So no abuse shouted by cyclists then, my anecdotal evidence is that some
on CM quite freely hurl abuse at motorists (espically if the car is a 4 x 4)
> which you and other motorists here choose to selectively ignore? Also
> the video cannot possibly cover every incident that takes place during
> a ride.
>> And whilst we're on the subject of cherry-picking why are so selective
>> about the issues you choose to respond to?
>>
> You are confusing issues with evidence.
>
> --
> UK Radical Campaigns
> www.zing.icom43.net
> One man's democracy is another man's regime.
>
>
But yet again let me point out that you presented a video as proof of a
bus ramming a bike, there was no such evidence on that video.
--
Tony Dragon
Doug
> Doug wrote:
> > On 3 Nov, 14:23, Bambleweeny57 <h...@there.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:33:00 -0800, Doug wrote:
> >>>> Show me evidence of a driver ramming a cycle under normal circumstances
> >>>> and I will readily condemn him/her.
> >>> Why would you require absolute evidence of something that happens every
> >>> day worldwide in order to condemn it?
> >> Prove it! This is the first of your videos I've watched and it shows no
> >> such act. In my 45 years of cycling & 25 years of driving I have never
> >> seen such thing.
>
> > Your anecdotal is worthless and cannot be verified. I can claim I have
> > witnessed several deliberate rammings during CM rides.
>
> Well my anecdotal evidence is that in 40 plus years of using vehicles on
> public roads I have never seen a cyclist deliberately rammed & only one
> instance of a car doing it, and as that was in Brixton in 1981 I didn't
> wait to see the result.
>
>
>
> > If you doubt that it happens at all to cyclists try Googling for it
> > where you will find plenty of examples.
> >>> Do you think that CM is a special
> >>> circumstance that in some way justifies being rammed?
> >> Given that they explicitly, deliberately put themselves in situations
> >> where contact is all but inevitable they make themselves a special case.
> >> There is no justification for a malicious act of violence by either
> >> driver or CM activist but I'm not going to condemn a driver who finds
> >> himself at the wrong end of a situation deliberately engineered to
> >> provoke an incident.
>
> > The only provocation is from the impatient motorist who cannot wait a
> > few minutes for a legitimate procession to pass. When they try to nose
> > into that procession the confrontation begins.
>
> Many on CM try to provoke an incident.
>
>
> >>>> All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of
> >>>> loudmouth louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and
> >>>> intimidating other road users.
> >>> Why do you choose to cherry-pick some video evidence and not others?
> >> Cherry-pick !!! The bulk of the video you posted was cyclists behaving
> >> badly. If there's any cherry-picking going on here it you selecting the
> >> one incident with the bus from everything and even that one is open to
> >> question.
>
> > What about the other rammer and all that provocative hooting and abuse
>
> So no abuse shouted by cyclists then, my anecdotal evidence is that some
> on CM quite freely hurl abuse at motorists (espically if the car is a 4 x 4)
>
lengthily hooted at or are being rammed or verbally abused by drivers.
>
> > which you and other motorists here choose to selectively ignore? Also
> > the video cannot possibly cover every incident that takes place during
> > a ride.
> >> And whilst we're on the subject of cherry-picking why are so selective
> >> about the issues you choose to respond to?
>
> > You are confusing issues with evidence.
>
>
> bus ramming a bike, there was no such evidence on that video.
>
nor does it mean that the ramming of cyclists never happens.
Just look again at the 4x4, which is seen suddenly to move forward,
despite being blocked, then followed by the sound of it hitting a
bicycle and then reproachful shouts from several of CMers.
oldMaxim
> "Get out of my way you f*ing cyclist".- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
...is it really any great surprise that someone reacts to anothers
confrontational attitude?
Doug
> confrontational attitude?
>
way as CMers, to prevent drivers from trying to merge with the Mass,
aka procession, there was little if any confrontation.
The reason there is confrontation is because some drivers treat
cyclists with utter contempt and regard them as second-class road
users who have no rights on the road, especially no right to obstruct
drivers, even in the interests of safety. Those same drivers also seem
to think that the best way to clear cyclists out of their way is to
deliberately ram them and THAT is REAL confrontation.
--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
Tony Dragon
> On 4 Nov, 09:11, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 3 Nov, 14:23, Bambleweeny57 <h...@there.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:33:00 -0800, Doug wrote:
>>>>>> Show me evidence of a driver ramming a cycle under normal circumstances
>>>>>> and I will readily condemn him/her.
>>>>> Why would you require absolute evidence of something that happens every
>>>>> day worldwide in order to condemn it?
>>>> Prove it! This is the first of your videos I've watched and it shows no
>>>> such act. In my 45 years of cycling & 25 years of driving I have never
>>>> seen such thing.
>>> Your anecdotal is worthless and cannot be verified. I can claim I have
>>> witnessed several deliberate rammings during CM rides.
>> Well my anecdotal evidence is that in 40 plus years of using vehicles on
>> public roads I have never seen a cyclist deliberately rammed & only one
>> instance of a car doing it, and as that was in Brixton in 1981 I didn't
>> wait to see the result.
>>
> So because you haven't seen it, it cannot happen?
Did I say that, no, all I said is that I have not seen it.
>>
>>> If you doubt that it happens at all to cyclists try Googling for it
>>> where you will find plenty of examples.
>>>>> Do you think that CM is a special
>>>>> circumstance that in some way justifies being rammed?
>>>> Given that they explicitly, deliberately put themselves in situations
>>>> where contact is all but inevitable they make themselves a special case.
>>>> There is no justification for a malicious act of violence by either
>>>> driver or CM activist but I'm not going to condemn a driver who finds
>>>> himself at the wrong end of a situation deliberately engineered to
>>>> provoke an incident.
>>> The only provocation is from the impatient motorist who cannot wait a
>>> few minutes for a legitimate procession to pass. When they try to nose
>>> into that procession the confrontation begins.
>> Many on CM try to provoke an incident.
>>
> In what way?
Holding picnics in the road on river bridges, cycling on the wrong side
of the road, standing in the middle of the road holding their bikes in
the air, deliberate obstruction.
>>>>>> All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of
>>>>>> loudmouth louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and
>>>>>> intimidating other road users.
>>>>> Why do you choose to cherry-pick some video evidence and not others?
>>>> Cherry-pick !!! The bulk of the video you posted was cyclists behaving
>>>> badly. If there's any cherry-picking going on here it you selecting the
>>>> one incident with the bus from everything and even that one is open to
>>>> question.
>>> What about the other rammer and all that provocative hooting and abuse
>> So no abuse shouted by cyclists then, my anecdotal evidence is that some
>> on CM quite freely hurl abuse at motorists (espically if the car is a 4 x 4)
>>
> In my experience this only happens when they are repeatedly and
> lengthily hooted at or are being rammed or verbally abused by drivers.
If CM behaved in a normal & considerate manner, perhaps they would not
be hooted at.
>>> which you and other motorists here choose to selectively ignore? Also
>>> the video cannot possibly cover every incident that takes place during
>>> a ride.
>>>> And whilst we're on the subject of cherry-picking why are so selective
>>>> about the issues you choose to respond to?
>>> You are confusing issues with evidence.
>>
>> But yet again let me point out that you presented a video as proof of a
>> bus ramming a bike, there was no such evidence on that video.
>>
> Just because you are bloody minded doesn't mean there is no evidence
> nor does it mean that the ramming of cyclists never happens.
I am not bloody minded, that is you.
But I point out yet again that there is no evidence in that video of
what happened, it only shows scenes after the event.
>
> Just look again at the 4x4, which is seen suddenly to move forward,
> despite being blocked, then followed by the sound of it hitting a
> bicycle and then reproachful shouts from several of CMers.
>
> --
> Critical Mass London
> http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk
> "Get out of my way you f*ing cyclist".
Just to keep you happy I will check that part of the video when I return
home from work.
--
Tony Dragon
Tony Dragon
But legally.
> to prevent drivers from trying to merge with the Mass,
> aka procession, there was little if any confrontation.
The police have that authority.
>
> The reason there is confrontation is because some drivers treat
> cyclists with utter contempt and regard them as second-class road
> users who have no rights on the road, especially no right to obstruct
> drivers,
They don't have the right to deliberately obstruct anybody, no road user
has that right.
> even in the interests of safety. Those same drivers also seem
> to think that the best way to clear cyclists out of their way is to
> deliberately ram them and THAT is REAL confrontation.
>
> --
> UK Radical Campaigns
> www.zing.icom43.net
> All public road users are equal but some are more equal than others.
But often started by CM.
--
Tony Dragon
Tony Dragon
Well I saw a car that was being obstructed on purpose & intimidated by a
large number of cyclists, he did move forward (not suddenly)I then heard
what you say is a collision with a cycle (in all probability correct)
followed my more shouting.
If the driver deliberately hit the cycle then clearly he is in the wrong.
But for all I know the cycle may have been put in his way.
For certain the cyclist should not have been obstructing & attempting to
intimidate the motorist.
--
Tony Dragon
Doug
> > home from work.
>
> Well I saw a car that was being obstructed on purpose & intimidated by a
> large number of cyclists, he did move forward (not suddenly)I then heard
> what you say is a collision with a cycle (in all probability correct)
> followed my more shouting.
> If the driver deliberately hit the cycle then clearly he is in the wrong.
> But for all I know the cycle may have been put in his way.
> For certain the cyclist should not have been obstructing & attempting to
> intimidate the motorist.
>
dangerously with the CM 'procession' and which would have delayed him
further anyway. His passenger chose to remonstrated with the corkers
and that escalated the situation.
Obviously, corking involves putting bicycles in the way of drivers,
which is what the cycle police do too.
Doug
> Doug wrote:
> > On 4 Nov, 09:11, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 3 Nov, 14:23, Bambleweeny57 <h...@there.invalid> wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:33:00 -0800, Doug wrote:
> >>>>>> Show me evidence of a driver ramming a cycle under normal circumstances
> >>>>>> and I will readily condemn him/her.
> >>>>> Why would you require absolute evidence of something that happens every
> >>>>> day worldwide in order to condemn it?
> >>>> Prove it! This is the first of your videos I've watched and it shows no
> >>>> such act. In my 45 years of cycling & 25 years of driving I have never
> >>>> seen such thing.
> >>> Your anecdotal is worthless and cannot be verified. I can claim I have
> >>> witnessed several deliberate rammings during CM rides.
> >> Well my anecdotal evidence is that in 40 plus years of using vehicles on
> >> public roads I have never seen a cyclist deliberately rammed & only one
> >> instance of a car doing it, and as that was in Brixton in 1981 I didn't
> >> wait to see the result.
>
> > So because you haven't seen it, it cannot happen?
>
> Did I say that, no, all I said is that I have not seen it.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> If you doubt that it happens at all to cyclists try Googling for it
> >>> where you will find plenty of examples.
> >>>>> Do you think that CM is a special
> >>>>> circumstance that in some way justifies being rammed?
> >>>> Given that they explicitly, deliberately put themselves in situations
> >>>> where contact is all but inevitable they make themselves a special case.
> >>>> There is no justification for a malicious act of violence by either
> >>>> driver or CM activist but I'm not going to condemn a driver who finds
> >>>> himself at the wrong end of a situation deliberately engineered to
> >>>> provoke an incident.
> >>> The only provocation is from the impatient motorist who cannot wait a
> >>> few minutes for a legitimate procession to pass. When they try to nose
> >>> into that procession the confrontation begins.
> >> Many on CM try to provoke an incident.
>
> > In what way?
>
> Holding picnics in the road on river bridges, cycling on the wrong side
> of the road, standing in the middle of the road holding their bikes in
> the air, deliberate obstruction.
>
>
> >>>>>> All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of
> >>>>>> loudmouth louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and
> >>>>>> intimidating other road users.
> >>>>> Why do you choose to cherry-pick some video evidence and not others?
> >>>> Cherry-pick !!! The bulk of the video you posted was cyclists behaving
> >>>> badly. If there's any cherry-picking going on here it you selecting the
> >>>> one incident with the bus from everything and even that one is open to
> >>>> question.
> >>> What about the other rammer and all that provocative hooting and abuse
> >> So no abuse shouted by cyclists then, my anecdotal evidence is that some
> >> on CM quite freely hurl abuse at motorists (espically if the car is a 4 x 4)
>
> > In my experience this only happens when they are repeatedly and
> > lengthily hooted at or are being rammed or verbally abused by drivers.
>
> If CM behaved in a normal & considerate manner, perhaps they would not
> be hooted at.
>
abreast and observing all red lights and merged with cars? What sort
of congestion do you think that might cause compared to one cohesive
group which takes a few minutes to pass?
>?
> >>> which you and other motorists here choose to selectively ignore? Also
> >>> the video cannot possibly cover every incident that takes place during
> >>> a ride.
> >>>> And whilst we're on the subject of cherry-picking why are so selective
> >>>> about the issues you choose to respond to?
> >>> You are confusing issues with evidence.
>
> >> But yet again let me point out that you presented a video as proof of a
> >> bus ramming a bike, there was no such evidence on that video.
>
> > Just because you are bloody minded doesn't mean there is no evidence
> > nor does it mean that the ramming of cyclists never happens.
>
> I am not bloody minded, that is you.
> But I point out yet again that there is no evidence in that video of
> what happened, it only shows scenes after the event.
>
except the bloody minded.
>
>
> > Just look again at the 4x4, which is seen suddenly to move forward,
> > despite being blocked, then followed by the sound of it hitting a
> > bicycle and then reproachful shouts from several of CMers.
>
>
> home from work.
>
didn't study the video properly anyway.
Tony Dragon
As they are legally entitled to do (I doubt if the police use the term
'cork').
--
Tony Dragon
Tony Dragon
> On 5 Nov, 08:55, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 4 Nov, 09:11, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 3 Nov, 14:23, Bambleweeny57 <h...@there.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:33:00 -0800, Doug wrote:
>>>>>>>> Show me evidence of a driver ramming a cycle under normal circumstances
>>>>>>>> and I will readily condemn him/her.
>>>>>>> Why would you require absolute evidence of something that happens every
>>>>>>> day worldwide in order to condemn it?
>>>>>> Prove it! This is the first of your videos I've watched and it shows no
>>>>>> such act. In my 45 years of cycling & 25 years of driving I have never
>>>>>> seen such thing.
>>>>> Your anecdotal is worthless and cannot be verified. I can claim I have
>>>>> witnessed several deliberate rammings during CM rides.
>>>> Well my anecdotal evidence is that in 40 plus years of using vehicles on
>>>> public roads I have never seen a cyclist deliberately rammed & only one
>>>> instance of a car doing it, and as that was in Brixton in 1981 I didn't
>>>> wait to see the result.
>>> So because you haven't seen it, it cannot happen?
>> Did I say that, no, all I said is that I have not seen it.
>>
>>
> So what is the point you struggle to make?
I am not struggling to make a point, you appear to be struggling to
understand what is posted.
>>
>>
>>>>> If you doubt that it happens at all to cyclists try Googling for it
>>>>> where you will find plenty of examples.
>>>>>>> Do you think that CM is a special
>>>>>>> circumstance that in some way justifies being rammed?
>>>>>> Given that they explicitly, deliberately put themselves in situations
>>>>>> where contact is all but inevitable they make themselves a special case.
>>>>>> There is no justification for a malicious act of violence by either
>>>>>> driver or CM activist but I'm not going to condemn a driver who finds
>>>>>> himself at the wrong end of a situation deliberately engineered to
>>>>>> provoke an incident.
>>>>> The only provocation is from the impatient motorist who cannot wait a
>>>>> few minutes for a legitimate procession to pass. When they try to nose
>>>>> into that procession the confrontation begins.
>>>> Many on CM try to provoke an incident.
>>> In what way?
>> Holding picnics in the road on river bridges, cycling on the wrong side
>> of the road, standing in the middle of the road holding their bikes in
>> the air, deliberate obstruction.
>>
> That is why it is called a 'procession' in law.
Holding a picnic on a public road bridge is a procession, what a quaint
idea.
>>>>>>>> All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of
>>>>>>>> loudmouth louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and
>>>>>>>> intimidating other road users.
>>>>>>> Why do you choose to cherry-pick some video evidence and not others?
>>>>>> Cherry-pick !!! The bulk of the video you posted was cyclists behaving
>>>>>> badly. If there's any cherry-picking going on here it you selecting the
>>>>>> one incident with the bus from everything and even that one is open to
>>>>>> question.
>>>>> What about the other rammer and all that provocative hooting and abuse
>>>> So no abuse shouted by cyclists then, my anecdotal evidence is that some
>>>> on CM quite freely hurl abuse at motorists (espically if the car is a 4 x 4)
>>> In my experience this only happens when they are repeatedly and
>>> lengthily hooted at or are being rammed or verbally abused by drivers.
>> If CM behaved in a normal & considerate manner, perhaps they would not
>> be hooted at.
>>
> You mean like an ordinary cycle ride with, say, 500 cyclists, two
> abreast and observing all red lights and merged with cars? What sort
> of congestion do you think that might cause compared to one cohesive
> group which takes a few minutes to pass?
Did you miss the words 'considerate' & 'normal'?
>> ?
>>>>> which you and other motorists here choose to selectively ignore? Also
>>>>> the video cannot possibly cover every incident that takes place during
>>>>> a ride.
>>>>>> And whilst we're on the subject of cherry-picking why are so selective
>>>>>> about the issues you choose to respond to?
>>>>> You are confusing issues with evidence.
>>>> But yet again let me point out that you presented a video as proof of a
>>>> bus ramming a bike, there was no such evidence on that video.
>>> Just because you are bloody minded doesn't mean there is no evidence
>>> nor does it mean that the ramming of cyclists never happens.
>> I am not bloody minded, that is you.
>> But I point out yet again that there is no evidence in that video of
>> what happened, it only shows scenes after the event.
>>
> It shows that ramming had occurred, as several here have agreed,
> except the bloody minded.
It shows that an incident had occurred, nothing more, the video shows
the result of an incident not the event.
>>
>>> Just look again at the 4x4, which is seen suddenly to move forward,
>>> despite being blocked, then followed by the sound of it hitting a
>>> bicycle and then reproachful shouts from several of CMers.
>>
>> Just to keep you happy I will check that part of the video when I return
>> home from work.
>>
> Pity you didn't do so previously before responding. It suggests you
> didn't study the video properly anyway.
>
> --
> Critical Mass London
> http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk
> "Get out of my way you f*ing cyclist".
>
>
>
I have studied the video again, and posted my comments.
If I am wrong I will admit it, unlike you.
--
Tony Dragon
Doug
>
>
>
> >>>>> If you doubt that it happens at all to cyclists try Googling for it
> >>>>> where you will find plenty of examples.
> >>>>>>> Do you think that CM is a special
> >>>>>>> circumstance that in some way justifies being rammed?
> >>>>>> Given that they explicitly, deliberately put themselves in situations
> >>>>>> where contact is all but inevitable they make themselves a special case.
> >>>>>> There is no justification for a malicious act of violence by either
> >>>>>> driver or CM activist but I'm not going to condemn a driver who finds
> >>>>>> himself at the wrong end of a situation deliberately engineered to
> >>>>>> provoke an incident.
> >>>>> The only provocation is from the impatient motorist who cannot wait a
> >>>>> few minutes for a legitimate procession to pass. When they try to nose
> >>>>> into that procession the confrontation begins.
> >>>> Many on CM try to provoke an incident.
> >>> In what way?
> >> Holding picnics in the road on river bridges, cycling on the wrong side
> >> of the road, standing in the middle of the road holding their bikes in
> >> the air, deliberate obstruction.
>
> > That is why it is called a 'procession' in law.
>
> Holding a picnic on a public road bridge is a procession, what a quaint
> idea.
>
Hill Carnival for example.
>
>
> >>>>>>>> All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of
> >>>>>>>> loudmouth louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and
> >>>>>>>> intimidating other road users.
> >>>>>>> Why do you choose to cherry-pick some video evidence and not others?
> >>>>>> Cherry-pick !!! The bulk of the video you posted was cyclists behaving
> >>>>>> badly. If there's any cherry-picking going on here it you selecting the
> >>>>>> one incident with the bus from everything and even that one is open to
> >>>>>> question.
> >>>>> What about the other rammer and all that provocative hooting and abuse
> >>>> So no abuse shouted by cyclists then, my anecdotal evidence is that some
> >>>> on CM quite freely hurl abuse at motorists (espically if the car is a 4 x 4)
> >>> In my experience this only happens when they are repeatedly and
> >>> lengthily hooted at or are being rammed or verbally abused by drivers.
> >> If CM behaved in a normal & considerate manner, perhaps they would not
> >> be hooted at.
>
> > You mean like an ordinary cycle ride with, say, 500 cyclists, two
> > abreast and observing all red lights and merged with cars? What sort
> > of congestion do you think that might cause compared to one cohesive
> > group which takes a few minutes to pass?
>
> Did you miss the words 'considerate' & 'normal'?
>
>
>
> >> ?
> >>>>> which you and other motorists here choose to selectively ignore? Also
> >>>>> the video cannot possibly cover every incident that takes place during
> >>>>> a ride.
> >>>>>> And whilst we're on the subject of cherry-picking why are so selective
> >>>>>> about the issues you choose to respond to?
> >>>>> You are confusing issues with evidence.
> >>>> But yet again let me point out that you presented a video as proof of a
> >>>> bus ramming a bike, there was no such evidence on that video.
> >>> Just because you are bloody minded doesn't mean there is no evidence
> >>> nor does it mean that the ramming of cyclists never happens.
> >> I am not bloody minded, that is you.
> >> But I point out yet again that there is no evidence in that video of
> >> what happened, it only shows scenes after the event.
>
> > It shows that ramming had occurred, as several here have agreed,
> > except the bloody minded.
>
> It shows that an incident had occurred, nothing more, the video shows
> the result of an incident not the event.
>
>
trying to prove, that ramming of cyclists never happens? If so you
have a very big job on.
>
>
>
> >>> Just look again at the 4x4, which is seen suddenly to move forward,
> >>> despite being blocked, then followed by the sound of it hitting a
> >>> bicycle and then reproachful shouts from several of CMers.
>
> >> Just to keep you happy I will check that part of the video when I return
> >> home from work.
>
> > Pity you didn't do so previously before responding. It suggests you
> > didn't study the video properly anyway.
>
>
> If I am wrong I will admit it, unlike you.
>
post that the 4x4 was ramming?
Tony Dragon
The relevance is that you brought up the subject of 'ramming', I said
that I have not seen such a thing.
>>
>>
>>>>>>> If you doubt that it happens at all to cyclists try Googling for it
>>>>>>> where you will find plenty of examples.
>>>>>>>>> Do you think that CM is a special
>>>>>>>>> circumstance that in some way justifies being rammed?
>>>>>>>> Given that they explicitly, deliberately put themselves in situations
>>>>>>>> where contact is all but inevitable they make themselves a special case.
>>>>>>>> There is no justification for a malicious act of violence by either
>>>>>>>> driver or CM activist but I'm not going to condemn a driver who finds
>>>>>>>> himself at the wrong end of a situation deliberately engineered to
>>>>>>>> provoke an incident.
>>>>>>> The only provocation is from the impatient motorist who cannot wait a
>>>>>>> few minutes for a legitimate procession to pass. When they try to nose
>>>>>>> into that procession the confrontation begins.
>>>>>> Many on CM try to provoke an incident.
>>>>> In what way?
>>>> Holding picnics in the road on river bridges, cycling on the wrong side
>>>> of the road, standing in the middle of the road holding their bikes in
>>>> the air, deliberate obstruction.
>>> That is why it is called a 'procession' in law.
>> Holding a picnic on a public road bridge is a procession, what a quaint
>> idea.
>>
> No quainter than what happens on other processions, like the Notting
> Hill Carnival for example.
Are you mean the Notting Hill Carnival, which is well advertised as to
where & when it will take place, along roads that have been closed off
for the occasion, using correct stewardism.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> All you have presented is copious evidence of large numbers of
>>>>>>>>>> loudmouth louts provoking confrontation, interfering with traffic and
>>>>>>>>>> intimidating other road users.
>>>>>>>>> Why do you choose to cherry-pick some video evidence and not others?
>>>>>>>> Cherry-pick !!! The bulk of the video you posted was cyclists behaving
>>>>>>>> badly. If there's any cherry-picking going on here it you selecting the
>>>>>>>> one incident with the bus from everything and even that one is open to
>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>> What about the other rammer and all that provocative hooting and abuse
>>>>>> So no abuse shouted by cyclists then, my anecdotal evidence is that some
>>>>>> on CM quite freely hurl abuse at motorists (espically if the car is a 4 x 4)
>>>>> In my experience this only happens when they are repeatedly and
>>>>> lengthily hooted at or are being rammed or verbally abused by drivers.
>>>> If CM behaved in a normal & considerate manner, perhaps they would not
>>>> be hooted at.
>>> You mean like an ordinary cycle ride with, say, 500 cyclists, two
>>> abreast and observing all red lights and merged with cars? What sort
>>> of congestion do you think that might cause compared to one cohesive
>>> group which takes a few minutes to pass?
>> Did you miss the words 'considerate' & 'normal'?
>>
> When are you going to answer my question?
OK just for you I'll try again.
A 'normal cycle ride' usually consists of a number of riders who obey
the traffic laws & are considerate to other road users. (as are most
cyclists)
>>
>>>> ?
>>>>>>> which you and other motorists here choose to selectively ignore? Also
>>>>>>> the video cannot possibly cover every incident that takes place during
>>>>>>> a ride.
>>>>>>>> And whilst we're on the subject of cherry-picking why are so selective
>>>>>>>> about the issues you choose to respond to?
>>>>>>> You are confusing issues with evidence.
>>>>>> But yet again let me point out that you presented a video as proof of a
>>>>>> bus ramming a bike, there was no such evidence on that video.
>>>>> Just because you are bloody minded doesn't mean there is no evidence
>>>>> nor does it mean that the ramming of cyclists never happens.
>>>> I am not bloody minded, that is you.
>>>> But I point out yet again that there is no evidence in that video of
>>>> what happened, it only shows scenes after the event.
>>> It shows that ramming had occurred, as several here have agreed,
>>> except the bloody minded.
>> It shows that an incident had occurred, nothing more, the video shows
>> the result of an incident not the event.
>>
>>
> Why is it you don't want to accept what others accept? What are you
> trying to prove, that ramming of cyclists never happens? If so you
> have a very big job on.
I will accept things on the evidence that I see, you have given no such
evidence, the video does not show what happened between the bus & the
cyclist, it was taken after the event.
If you read the other posts on this thread as well you will find others
with my POV
>>
>>
>>>>> Just look again at the 4x4, which is seen suddenly to move forward,
>>>>> despite being blocked, then followed by the sound of it hitting a
>>>>> bicycle and then reproachful shouts from several of CMers.
>>>> Just to keep you happy I will check that part of the video when I return
>>>> home from work.
>>> Pity you didn't do so previously before responding. It suggests you
>>> didn't study the video properly anyway.
>>
>> I have studied the video again, and posted my comments.
>> If I am wrong I will admit it, unlike you.
>>
> Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to have admitted in your other
> post that the 4x4 was ramming?
>
> --
> Critical Mass London
> http://www.criticalmasslondon.org.uk
> "Get out of my way you f*ing cyclist".
>
OK I will correct you, I did not admit that, go & check the post & read
it carefully (without blinkers)
--
Tony Dragon
Doug
you haven't seen something it can never happen?
live on those roads.
cyclists as CM it will cause considerable congestion, as does the
motorists' rush-hour or school-run.
nonsense of yours of repeatedly demanding absolute proof of something
which is widely acknowledged to exist, namely the ramming of cyclists
by drivers.?
>
>
>
> >>>>> Just look again at the 4x4, which is seen suddenly to move forward,
> >>>>> despite being blocked, then followed by the sound of it hitting a
> >>>>> bicycle and then reproachful shouts from several of CMers.
> >>>> Just to keep you happy I will check that part of the video when I return
> >>>> home from work.
> >>> Pity you didn't do so previously before responding. It suggests you
> >>> didn't study the video properly anyway.
>
> >> I have studied the video again, and posted my comments.
> >> If I am wrong I will admit it, unlike you.
>
> > Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to have admitted in your other
> > post that the 4x4 was ramming?
>
>
> it carefully (without blinkers)
>
"...he did move forward (not suddenly) I then heard
what you say is a collision with a cycle (in all probability correct)
followed my more shouting.
If the driver deliberately hit the cycle then clearly he is in the
wrong."
Actually it was 'suddenly' and without warning if you look more
closely. Or is that too much to expect?
Tony Dragon
Are you being stupid on purpose, my point is as I have said "I have not
seen such a thing"
As you well know I have not implied any such thing.
Just read what I posted.
You mean like the London to Brighton bike ride, where you find in the
main considerate cyclists, who do not set out to cause problems.
We are talking about the video that you insisted gave evidence of a
cyclist being rammed, it did not give such evidence.
I stand by what I posted.
--
Tony Dragon
oldMaxim
> "Get out of my way you f*ing cyclist".- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
What are the aims of the CM "processions" - what are the riders hoping
to achieve?
Doug
participant and varies.
Here is a very short list of possibles.
Some reasons for Critical Mass.
Promote alternative forms of transport.
Political protest reclaiming the streets.
Celebration of cycling.
Safety in numbers.
Against cars.
Pressure group.
Out-of-car experiences
An exercise in anarchy
Fun
--
Critical Mass London
oldMaxim
...wonder just how you think this promotes cycling, apart from
attracting a few thugs. Seems counter productive to me
Doug
> On 8 Nov, 07:52, Doug <jag...@riseup.net> wrote:
>
> > > What are the aims of the CM "processions" - what are the riders hoping
> > > to achieve?
>
> > As has been pointed out many times, it depends on a particular
> > participant and varies.
>
> > Here is a very short list of possibles.
>
> > Some reasons for Critical Mass.
>
> > Promote alternative forms of transport.
> > Political protest reclaiming the streets.
> > Celebration of cycling.
> > Safety in numbers.
> > Against cars.
> > Pressure group.
> > Out-of-car experiences
> > An exercise in anarchy
> > Fun
>
>
>
> ...wonder just how you think this promotes cycling, apart from
> attracting a few thugs. Seems counter productive to me
>
with celebrating or fun or even promoting alternative forms of
transport?
--
Critical Mass London
Tony Dragon
Nothing is wrong with "celebrating or fun or even promoting alternative
forms of transport" but do it in a legal & considerate manner.
--
Tony Dragon