Cooking oil in diesels.
Michael Mcneil
of a diesel?
Since the oil is immiscible (they do not mix the way that paraffin and
petrol would) with diesel, how do they behave when in the tank?
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
mrcheerful .
"Michael Mcneil" <weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44dd1f76329a17223cf...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> What is the law in the UK about putting vegetable oil in the fuel tank
> of a diesel?
>
> Since the oil is immiscible (they do not mix the way that paraffin and
> petrol would) with diesel, how do they behave when in the tank?
>
you need to pay tax on the oil you use
Matt
"mrcheerful ." <nbk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hm0Ve.106816$G8.4...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
But aren't food stuffs tax free!
tim (moved to sweden)
"Matt" <nos...@hometa.com> wrote in message
news:In0Ve.463$Kk3...@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Not if you run your car on them.
tim
shazzbat
tax-free.
Steve
Matt
"shazzbat" <shaz...@spamlessness.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dg243p$f8a$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Yes. But when you put it in your tank it becomes road fuel, which is not
> tax-free.
OK, so I pop down to local chippy, filter his fat, let it stand and pour it
into car. At what point and to whom, would I pay.
Same applies to Sainsbury finest cooking oil.
tim (moved to sweden)
>
> "shazzbat" <shaz...@spamlessness.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dg243p$f8a$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>> Yes. But when you put it in your tank it becomes road fuel, which is not
>> tax-free.
>
> OK, so I pop down to local chippy, filter his fat, let it stand and pour
> it into car. At what point
At the point of pouring it into your car.
(note that you need to do a few things to it first)
> and to whom, would I pay.
HMRC I would guess, you are required to tell them
that you owe them the money.
> Same applies to Sainsbury finest cooking oil.
Used oil is better apparently, and cheaper
tim
Jonathan Bryce
> What is the law in the UK about putting vegetable oil in the fuel tank
> of a diesel?
You have to pay excise duty of about 26p per litre, plus VAT on the cooking
oil + duty.
For a 43p bottle of Tesco Value or Lidl cooking oil, it works out at about
84p per litre in total.
Steve Walker
> For a 43p bottle of Tesco Value or Lidl cooking oil, it works out
> at about 84p per litre in total.
It's creeping towards being an economically viable idea, all you'd need is
the easy supply & filling.
Jonathan Bryce
> It's creeping towards being an economically viable idea, all you'd need is
> the easy supply & filling.
If you consider that for use as road fuel, they wouldn't have the cost of
complying with food hygiene requirements, and that transporting it around
in large oil tankers would be a lot cheaper than filling 1l plastic
bottles, it looks even more economically viable. On the other hand, the
increased demand may well increase farm gate costs.
The only problem at the moment is that a 14p margin (a bit more perhaps if
they can persuade people to pay a premium), with no certainty that diesel
prices will stay this high, is probably not enough to justify the
investment in new facilities to deliver it to the pumps.
Conor
says...
--
Conor
"You're not married, you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart, Extras.
Conor
They do all the filtering/additives etc. Works out about 75p/l.
Michael Mcneil
news:3ojll9F...@individual.net
> It's creeping towards being an economically viable idea..
Creeping?
It jumped out at me that it has been economically viable for years at
51.9 pence a litre.
Then there is all the residue which can be used to produce methane from
cows. (And you get to eat the cows.)
If I had a cheap old diesel I'd try it neat. If I had a license.
Someone explain to me what you have to do to treat it and why.
Conor
@mygate.mailgate.org>, Michael Mcneil says...
> "Steve Walker" <spam...@beeb.net> wrote in message
> news:3ojll9F...@individual.net
>
>
> > It's creeping towards being an economically viable idea..
>
> Creeping?
>
> It jumped out at me that it has been economically viable for years at
> 51.9 pence a litre.
>
> Then there is all the residue which can be used to produce methane from
> cows. (And you get to eat the cows.)
>
> If I had a cheap old diesel I'd try it neat. If I had a license.
>
> Someone explain to me what you have to do to treat it and why.
>
needs to be tested to make sure there's no animal fats in otherwise
it's no good. From talking to a guy who sells stuff he recycles from
the catering trade, there's also a heating process involved as well as
the obvious filtering.
Aidan
Michael Mcneil wrote:
> Someone explain to me what you have to do to treat it and why.
Chris Street
> What is the law in the UK about putting vegetable oil in the fuel tank
> of a diesel?
>
> Since the oil is immiscible (they do not mix the way that paraffin and
> petrol would) with diesel, how do they behave when in the tank?
The oil is fully miscible with diesel - both are non-polar hydrocarbons and
will mix.
There may well be some stratification occuring if the temperature is low
but vehicle motion will generally be sufficient to keep it well mixed.
Chris Street
> Supercritical steam or compressed air are possibles, too, but try not to
> have a crash; they'll not even find your boots left after the explosion.
You missed out the flywheel powered bus that was tried once - very
efficeint but gyroscpic force was a problem when it came to going round
corners....
Ian Stirling
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:05:03 +0100, Conor
> <conor....@gmail.com>
>
>> You need to add something to thin it down. The reclaimed stuff also
>> needs to be tested to make sure there's no animal fats in otherwise
>> it's no good. From talking to a guy who sells stuff he recycles from
>> the catering trade, there's also a heating process involved as well as
>> the obvious filtering.
>
>
> First, stick the stuff in a vat somewhere and leave it for a week or so;
> this lets rubbish settle out and solid fats condense out. Cooling it
> down will help this process.
>
> Next, filter it. You now have fairly clean vegetable fat.
<snip>
>
> Leave this lot to settle once more; the glycerol will settle to the
> bottom. Pour off the ester from the top, then add water to this stuff;
> it is water imiscible but the water will remove the remaining hydroxide.
> Opinions are divided as to the best way to clean up the ester; one trick
> it to add a few litres of water then bubble air through the mixture
> (which thoroughly mixes the water and the oil).
It's probably easier, as well as more efficient to simply mix it very
thouroughly using a mixy thing on a drill.
You still need to change the water several times though.
ka...@mwfree.net
Dan Holdsworth wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:05:03 +0100, Conor
> <conor....@gmail.com>
> was popularly supposed to have said:
>
> > needs to be tested to make sure there's no animal fats in otherwise
> > it's no good. From talking to a guy who sells stuff he recycles from
> > the catering trade, there's also a heating process involved as well as
> > the obvious filtering.
>
>
> First, stick the stuff in a vat somewhere and leave it for a week or so;
> this lets rubbish settle out and solid fats condense out. Cooling it
> down will help this process.
>
> Next, filter it. You now have fairly clean vegetable fat.
>
> to work. After this heating, cool it down again; the next bit is
> exothermic.
>
> Now react some methanol with sodium hydroxide to make methoxide
> (caution: highly caustic and poisonous). Add slowly to the oil, stirring
> all the time, and make sure this doesn't boil up the oil. When done, you
> end up with the methyl ester of the oil, and a load of caustic glycerol
> mixed in.
>
> Leave this lot to settle once more; the glycerol will settle to the
> bottom. Pour off the ester from the top, then add water to this stuff;
> it is water imiscible but the water will remove the remaining hydroxide.
> Opinions are divided as to the best way to clean up the ester; one trick
> it to add a few litres of water then bubble air through the mixture
> (which thoroughly mixes the water and the oil).
>
> once more, and you have proto-biodiesel which will work in a vehicle,
> but is heavier than normal diesel AND (importantly) needs something
> extra in it to lubricate the injector pump.
>
> Complicated, isn't it?
>
> Hard to get right, too. Bugger that one up and not only won't you get
> much end product but that you do get'll knacker the engine for you into
> the bargain.
>
> Me, I'll stick to the usual stuff and leave it to the experts (which,
> above method notwithstanding, I a, most certainly not).
>
> --
> Dan Holdsworth PhD dan170...@ntlworld.com
> By caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, By the beans of Java
> do thoughts acquire speed, hands acquire shaking, the shaking
> becomes a warning, By caffeine alone do I set my mind in motion
Is it easy to get hold of methanol. I did try this on a small quantity
of used oil just to see if it worked but just missed out the
methanol.It seemed to make huge volume of glycerol but what was left
looked ok but it was huge effort for a few pints of bio diesel.
Kevin
Cynic
>>> Since the oil is immiscible (they do not mix the way that paraffin and
>>> petrol would) with diesel, how do they behave when in the tank?
>> you need to pay tax on the oil you use
>But aren't food stuffs tax free!
Not when they are used as motror fuel.
--
Cynic
Cynic
I don't see whay that should be the case if the flywheel axel was
mounted vertically.
--
Cynic
Fred
"Cynic" <cyni...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ggpai1p5af33p3jp5...@4ax.com...
Try going over the brow of a hill and feel a severe tilt to one side!
Best to have contra-rotating flywheels as long as the bearings can take the
substantial forces.
Derek ^
>
>>>You missed out the flywheel powered bus that was tried once - very
>>>efficeint but gyroscpic force was a problem when it came to going round
>>>corners....
>>
>> I don't see whay that should be the case if the flywheel axel was
>> mounted vertically.
>>
>> --
>> Cynic
>>
>>
>
>Try going over the brow of a hill and feel a severe tilt to one side!
>
Try going over a speed hump with 2 wheels on 2 wheels off.
>Best to have contra-rotating flywheels as long as the bearings can take the
>substantial forces.
>
The forces can be tremendous and the stored energy very dangerous. As
Prof Laithwaite said on his christmas lecture if the energy was
released the flywheel would carve a neat slit straight across the
city.
DG
NeedforSwede2
cust209.bagu.broadband.ntl.com>, dan170...@ntlworld.com says...
> Firstly, drive an electric car. Robin Reliants will burn
> you off at the lights, but electric cars are dirt-cheap to run, tax and
> insure.
>
Is that so? So why are small electric drag cars and circuit race cars
placed in ope/unlimited classes running agains 6 and 8 cylinder huge
engined monsters to make the competition fair?
--
Carl Robson
Car PC Build starts again. http://smallr.com/rz
Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com
Mike P from the North
"Tone" <to...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:7i9ai1ptsgcc4b672...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 20:01:37 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
> <weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>What is the law in the UK about putting vegetable oil in the fuel tank
>>of a diesel?
>>
>>petrol would) with diesel, how do they behave when in the tank?
>
>
> websites
>
www.dieselveg.com has all the answers you need. FWIW I've run my old,
unmodified K-reg ZX Diesel on pure veg oil
from Asda for the last 4 months (20K miles) with no apparent ill
effects.Runs well, doesn't smoke, got through the MOT emissions
test with lower emissions than normal. I even declare it - works out about
60p a litre all in, same mpg (around 45-48) and same performance as diesel.
Mike
SteveH
> In article <slrndi9f7e.6g6.dan1701usenet@spc1-burn1-3-0-
> cust209.bagu.broadband.ntl.com>, dan170...@ntlworld.com says...
> > Firstly, drive an electric car. Robin Reliants will burn
> > you off at the lights, but electric cars are dirt-cheap to run, tax and
> > insure.
> >
> Is that so? So why are small electric drag cars and circuit race cars
> placed in ope/unlimited classes running agains 6 and 8 cylinder huge
> engined monsters to make the competition fair?
There's a huge trade-off between power and battery life. In drag racing
battery life doesn't matter, so you can use hugely powerful motors.
--
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 2.0 TSpark Lusso - Passat 1.8 Turbo SE - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
BORG
<weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What is the law in the UK about putting vegetable oil in the fuel tank
>of a diesel?
>
>Since the oil is immiscible (they do not mix the way that paraffin and
>petrol would) with diesel, how do they behave when in the tank?
your car will stink like a cheap chip shop, that's how they caught all
the people in Llanelli doing it
--
XJ900 Trike GS850 Trike
TimB
> >
> > "mrcheerful ." <nbk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:hm0Ve.106816$G8.4...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> > >
> > > "Michael Mcneil" <weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:44dd1f76329a17223cf...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> > >> What is the law in the UK about putting vegetable oil in the fuel tank
> > >> of a diesel?
> > >>
> > >> Since the oil is immiscible (they do not mix the way that paraffin and
> > >> petrol would) with diesel, how do they behave when in the tank?
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > But aren't food stuffs tax free!
> >
> tax-free.
So the best option would be to find a friendly chippy who'll give it to
you for free. No cost = no tax.
mrcheerful .
"TimB" <stok...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126545396....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
no, you should still pay the relevant amount of duty per litre
mrcheerful
SteveH
TimB <stok...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes. But when you put it in your tank it becomes road fuel, which is not
> > tax-free.
>
> So the best option would be to find a friendly chippy who'll give it to
> you for free. No cost = no tax.
I think you misunderstand fuel duty.
It's not a percentage of the price of the product - it's a fixed value
applied regardless of how much the wholesale price is.
Mr X
<stok...@gmail.com> writes
Not true! You are liable to pay 27p per litre Excise Duty for every
litre of biofuel you use. This liability is not related to the cost of
the biofuel.
--
Mr X
Mr X
<use...@miniac.demon.co.uk> writes
>The forces can be tremendous and the stored energy very dangerous. As
>Prof Laithwaite said on his christmas lecture if the energy was
>released the flywheel would carve a neat slit straight across the
>city.
Might be useful to terrorists, then!
--
Mr X
Mr X
<Bo...@deadspam.com> writes
>On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 20:01:37 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
><weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>What is the law in the UK about putting vegetable oil in the fuel tank
>>of a diesel?
>>
>>Since the oil is immiscible (they do not mix the way that paraffin and
>>petrol would) with diesel, how do they behave when in the tank?
>
>your car will stink like a cheap chip shop, that's how they caught all
>the people in Llanelli doing it
That was all press and police hype. Nobody was "caught" because the
Excise Duty due is payable in arrears upon fuel used.
All the people stopped had to do to be legal was make sure they
accounted for and paid the Excise Duty *AFTERWARDS*
--
Mr X
Ian Stirling
> Is it easy to get hold of methanol. I did try this on a small quantity
> of used oil just to see if it worked but just missed out the
> methanol.It seemed to make huge volume of glycerol but what was left
> looked ok but it was huge effort for a few pints of bio diesel.
Very.
Pop along to your local modelling shop, and ask.
If they look all confused, you've probably got the wrong sort of model shop.
It's used as part of a fuel for model engines.
The first online store I found is http://www.alansmodels.com/
Cynic
wrote:
>> Is it easy to get hold of methanol. I did try this on a small quantity
>> of used oil just to see if it worked but just missed out the
>> methanol.It seemed to make huge volume of glycerol but what was left
>> looked ok but it was huge effort for a few pints of bio diesel.
>
>Very.
>Pop along to your local modelling shop, and ask.
>If they look all confused, you've probably got the wrong sort of model shop.
>It's used as part of a fuel for model engines.
>The first online store I found is http://www.alansmodels.com/
The price is over £1 per litre. By the time you have added in the
cost of the used oil, the sodium hydroxide and the fuel for heating
during the preparation of the bio-diesel, ISTM that it will cost you
more than diesel at the pumps even if you break the law and don't pay
tax on it.
--
Cynic
Michael Swift
>you for free. No cost = no tax.
Wasn't there a case a while back where someone was prosecuted for using
old chip oil, I believe plod said they could tell by the exhaust smell,
probably smelled fishy.
Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
Weatherlawyer
Tone wrote:
> There is a yahoo group specifically for that subject and several
> websites
Yahoo is banned in my house since they handed over a Chinese journalist
to the Chinese gestapo. The poor sod is doing 10 years in one of
"their" prisons while the bosses of Yahoo sleep the sleep of the
innocent.
Weatherlawyer
Cynic wrote:
> The price is over £1 per litre. By the time you have added in the
> cost of the used oil, the sodium hydroxide and the fuel for heating
> during the preparation of the bio-diesel, ISTM that it will cost you
> more than diesel at the pumps even if you break the law and don't pay
> tax on it.
I don't like the idea of putting caustic soda anywhere near an
aluminium piston. An ham fisted chemist might do that apparently. You'd
be better off cooking red diesel.
Does glycerin burn? I know it does if you mix it with nitrogen trioxide
and dry it with sulphuric acid.
Anyway we are back to the rather dubious cooking oil at less than 60
pence a litre. Alternating a fifty fifty mix with using neat diesel
should be a safe money saver if you don't get caught. As it would be
clean no smell of cooking would give you away.
What is the fine these days? I knew someone who got done for a thousand
quid. That was a few years ago.
Jonathan Bryce
>> Yes. But when you put it in your tank it becomes road fuel, which is not
>> tax-free.
>
> So the best option would be to find a friendly chippy who'll give it to
> you for free. No cost = no tax.
You have 27.1p in excise duty plus VAT on that, so about 32p a litre.
Mike Ross
<Weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Does glycerin burn? I know it does if you mix it with nitrogen trioxide
>and dry it with sulphuric acid.
Eeeeek yes... that stuff 'burns' rather rapidly, I seem to
recall...!!!
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'
Ian Stirling
> On 12 Sep 2005 19:13:38 GMT, Ian Stirling <ro...@mauve.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>>> Is it easy to get hold of methanol. I did try this on a small quantity
>>> of used oil just to see if it worked but just missed out the
>>> methanol.It seemed to make huge volume of glycerol but what was left
>>> looked ok but it was huge effort for a few pints of bio diesel.
>>
>>Very.
>>Pop along to your local modelling shop, and ask.
>>If they look all confused, you've probably got the wrong sort of model shop.
>>It's used as part of a fuel for model engines.
>>The first online store I found is http://www.alansmodels.com/
>
> cost of the used oil, the sodium hydroxide and the fuel for heating
> during the preparation of the bio-diesel, ISTM that it will cost you
> more than diesel at the pumps even if you break the law and don't pay
> tax on it.
Err, no.
See http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html for more info.
But basically, you need about .2l/l of oil, and most of that ends up
burnable, so it's not wasted.
NaOH at 3.5g/l is practically free.
Sponge Bob Square Pants
> Not if you run your car on them.
Could I legally use cooking oil in a diesel lawnmower without paying the
duty?
--
SBSP
Cynic
Yes, just as you can legally use red diesel in a diesel lawnmower.
--
Cynic
Mr X
<cyni...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
Or in a static generator
--
Mr X
shazzbat
>
>
Thought. Can you get red petrol for lawnmowers etc?
Steve
RichardK
And this is why I hate them.
VAT on a tax. It's inequitable and stupid (well, stupid in terms of
outright logic, if not in terms of raising cash).
You can't charge VAT on a tax. Next we'll be paying VAT on National
Insurance.
Richard
--
RichardK - 1980s in a can. http://www.dmc12.demon.co.uk/music/
Retro computing - http://www.dmc12.demon.co.uk/retrotech/
Cars - 2004 Beetle Cabrio, 1989 Supra 3.0i, 1990 Sera, 1989 Volvo 740
MidiGuitar, AU/X. Apple 77-04. See links. Email - upgrade to 128 ;)
SteveH
> Jonathan Bryce wrote:
> > TimB wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>Yes. But when you put it in your tank it becomes road fuel, which is not
> >>>tax-free.
> >>
> >>So the best option would be to find a friendly chippy who'll give it to
> >>you for free. No cost = no tax.
> >
> >
> > You have 27.1p in excise duty plus VAT on that, so about 32p a litre.
>
> And this is why I hate them.
>
> VAT on a tax. It's inequitable and stupid (well, stupid in terms of
> outright logic, if not in terms of raising cash).
>
> You can't charge VAT on a tax. Next we'll be paying VAT on National
> Insurance.
If you think about it, though, we do it all the time.
We get taxed on our pay, then pay VAT on most things we buy....
Although, in this case, we're paying tax, then duty and VAT on top, so a
triple whammy, really.
You're right.
Bastards.
Clive George
news:3ooi0sF...@individual.net...
> And this is why I hate them.
>
> VAT on a tax. It's inequitable and stupid (well, stupid in terms of
> outright logic, if not in terms of raising cash).
>
> You can't charge VAT on a tax. Next we'll be paying VAT on National
> Insurance.
VAT is charged on import duty too.
clive
Adrian
were saying :
>> You can't charge VAT on a tax. Next we'll be paying VAT on National
>> Insurance.
> If you think about it, though, we do it all the time.
>
> We get taxed on our pay, then pay VAT on most things we buy....
Try inheritance tax...
You're doing reasonably well in life - you pay 40% income tax, then you pay
40% income tax on the interest your savings earn, then your estate may well
pay 40% inheritance tax on the bit you DON'T spend before your heirs get
it...
Mike Ross
But IIRC the excise duty on LPG - which isn't renewable of course - is
only 4.5p. Presumable HMG are trying to encourage the consumption of
fossil fuels over renewables?!
AstraVanMan
>>>> not
>>>> tax-free.
>>>
>>> So the best option would be to find a friendly chippy who'll give it to
>>> you for free. No cost = no tax.
>>
>>You have 27.1p in excise duty plus VAT on that, so about 32p a litre.
>
> But IIRC the excise duty on LPG - which isn't renewable of course - is
> only 4.5p. Presumable HMG are trying to encourage the consumption of
> fossil fuels over renewables?!
Maybe they're just trying to coax us in to something new by offering
financial benefits for doing so, and when enough people have gone over to
LPG they'll hike it up so it's still just about a better option than petrol
or diesel.
--
Peter
"You're not a real UKRCMer until you've had your big end bearings go."
Mr X
Ross <mi...@corestore.org> writes
>On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:01:08 +0100, Jonathan Bryce
><jona...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
>>TimB wrote:
>>
>>>> Yes. But when you put it in your tank it becomes road fuel, which is not
>>>> tax-free.
>>>
>>> So the best option would be to find a friendly chippy who'll give it to
>>> you for free. No cost = no tax.
>>
>>You have 27.1p in excise duty plus VAT on that, so about 32p a litre.
>
>But IIRC the excise duty on LPG - which isn't renewable of course - is
>only 4.5p. Presumable HMG are trying to encourage the consumption of
>fossil fuels over renewables?!
Only until it's popular and then they'll whack the tax up
--
Mr X
Mike Ross
LPG is already more popular than biodiesel; how many LPG pumps have
you seen? How many biodiesel? So that argument doesn't wash, if it
were true the chippy oil duty would be *lower* than the LPG.
Mr X
Ross <mi...@corestore.org> writes
>LPG is already more popular than biodiesel; how many LPG pumps have
>you seen? How many biodiesel? So that argument doesn't wash, if it
>were true the chippy oil duty would be *lower* than the LPG.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying there, Mike.
Biodiesel is a relatively new phenomenon whereas LPG has been around for
a while slowly getting "converts" perhaps helped by the Govt subsidy on
conversions.
Are you saying that the tax on LPG won't be whacked-up if loads of
motorists go to LPG and shun petrol?
--
Mr X
Fred
"Michael Mcneil" <weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44dd1f76329a17223cf...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> What is the law in the UK about putting vegetable oil in the fuel tank
> of a diesel?
>
> Since the oil is immiscible (they do not mix the way that paraffin and
> petrol would) with diesel, how do they behave when in the tank?
>
>
I know this is OT but has anyone thought of the effects of paying farmers to
keep empty fields? Apart from inflating the price of land by artificially
keeping the price of produce high, it means less land for bio diesel crops.
Shame the main people to benefit from policy are land owning farmers and
landlords, to the detriment of the populous.
Dave Mayall
Not for much longer :-(
The UK derogation on using rebated diesel for pleasure boats is due to
expire at the end of 2006 unless renewed.
That Prudence Brown isn't likely to pass up on an opportunity to have a bit
more tax that nobody can blame him for is he.
Dave Mayall
news:1126648748.c91b4b8d36d9bf720442e0f589dd8eaf@teranews...
It's a different kettle of fish.
In order for LPG to even be introduced as a fuel, it is necessary that there
is a sufficient network of sales outlets.
As biodiesel is a direct replacement for petro-diesel, there is no need for
that network.
I fill up on 5% bio regularly, and the pump gets a damn site more use than
any LPG pump I've seen.
Ques...@forgotten.what.this.was.now.com
<shaz...@spamlessness.co.uk> said:
I suppose also that this means we are entitled to claim back fuel duty on the
petrol we use in lawnmowers?
Ques...@forgotten.what.this.was.now.com
said:
>On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 20:01:37 +0000 (UTC), "Michael Mcneil"
><weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>What is the law in the UK about putting vegetable oil in the fuel tank
>>of a diesel?
>>
>>Since the oil is immiscible (they do not mix the way that paraffin and
>>petrol would) with diesel, how do they behave when in the tank?
>
>your car will stink like a cheap chip shop, that's how they caught all
>the people in Llanelli doing it
Well, "caught" is a slightly emotive term there. Identified might be better,
given there is nothing illegal about renewable energy sources just at the
moment.
There is, of course, a law that says you have to pay tax on it.
A tax, that is supposed to apply to fossil fuels as a levy to deter the use of
fossil fuels. Interesting that it is currently being applied to deter the use
of renewable fuels.
I.e. the government wants us to use irreplaceable fossil fuels so they can tax
us on them. Bit of a cartoon that.
Chris Howarth
news:whgVe.2416$K5....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>
> www.dieselveg.com has all the answers you need. FWIW I've run my old,
> unmodified K-reg ZX Diesel on pure veg oil
> from Asda for the last 4 months (20K miles) with no apparent ill
> effects.Runs well, doesn't smoke, got through the MOT emissions
> test with lower emissions than normal. I even declare it - works out about
> 60p a litre all in, same mpg (around 45-48) and same performance as
> diesel.
>
>
> Mike
Is it a 1.9? D or TD? I'm thinking of using the veg oil in my 306 1.9D
which, I think, uses the same engine as your car.
Chris
Nick Finnigan
> Apparently on date Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:54:08 +0100, "shazzbat"
> <shaz...@spamlessness.co.uk> said:
>>
>>Thought. Can you get red petrol for lawnmowers etc?
No, only for 'furnace fuel'.
> I suppose also that this means we are entitled to claim back fuel duty on the
> petrol we use in lawnmowers?
Nope, nor chainsaws, nor quadbikes...
John Redman
<Ques...@forgotten.what.this.was.now.com> wrote in message
news:28mgi1ds9h0qi43q3...@4ax.com...
If anybody ever did find a way of getting cars to run on water, the tax on
water would be Ł4 a gallon too.
Mike Ross
>Are you saying that the tax on LPG won't be whacked-up if loads of
>motorists go to LPG and shun petrol?
It almost certainly would be, I agree. What I'm puzzled by is why the
tax on biodiesel is so high already. It's relatively unpopular AFAIK,
and it's renewable - frankly I feel the tax on renewable motor fuels
should be zero, or pretty damn close to it. But no, the tax on
biodiesel is much higher than on LPG, which makes no sense to me at
all.
Mr X
Ross <mi...@corestore.org> writes
>On 14 Sep 2005 01:29:08 -0500, Mr X <Mr...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>Are you saying that the tax on LPG won't be whacked-up if loads of
>>motorists go to LPG and shun petrol?
>
>It almost certainly would be, I agree. What I'm puzzled by is why the
>tax on biodiesel is so high already. It's relatively unpopular AFAIK,
>and it's renewable - frankly I feel the tax on renewable motor fuels
>should be zero, or pretty damn close to it. But no, the tax on
>biodiesel is much higher than on LPG, which makes no sense to me at
>all.
Mike, the only reason I can think of is that the Govt don't want to
encourage DIY biodiesel makers.
Not an issue with LPG
--
Mr X
Cynic
>Mike, the only reason I can think of is that the Govt don't want to
>encourage DIY biodiesel makers.
>
>Not an issue with LPG
AFAIAA there is no "marker" in LPG to distinguish heating gas from
motor gas. It would therefore be trivial to fill the car's gas bottle
with heating gas without being detectable.
--
Cynic
john_...@my-deja.com
Growing one's own diesel is not a scaleable solution anyway. The UK
road fuel market is about 30 million tonnes a year and you can only get
about half a ton of fuel from 1 acre of arable land.
To run the entire UK vehicle parc on biodiesel, you'd need 60 million
acres of arable land doing it. 60 million acres is 93,000 square miles
which is just about the entire land area of England, including cities,
mountains etc. Suitable arable land area would be a fair bit less so
the land cannot provide enough diesel.
It doesn't look interesting economically either. The average UK farm is
only about 200 acres (http://www.tlio.org.uk/chapter7/news.html) so an
average British arable farm would only produce 100 tons of biodiesel a
year. At say GBP 200 a ton that's only 20k a year, and that doesn't
sound like enough for a farmer to live on - and that's even before the
cost of the process.
Of course if they got to sell at the same price as duty-paid forecourt
diesel, i.e. a quid a litre, then the economics are transformed. The
average farm would make 100,000 quid plust VAT a year.
Clive
<Pe...@Whataloadofforeskinbollocks.co.uk> writes
>Maybe they're just trying to coax us in to something new by offering
>financial benefits for doing so, and when enough people have gone over
>to LPG they'll hike it up so it's still just about a better option than
>petrol or diesel.
tax free, then suddenly the government decided it attracted the same tax
as petrol, a lot of taxi's suddenly reverted back and the treachery of
government is clear to see.
--
Clive
Mike Ross
Not even that makes a lot of sense; if the duty was low (or nil) and
there was an easy way to pay it, there would be much more incentive
for it to be produced commercially, at a local/community level, or on
industrial scale, much less incentive to home cook the stuff (and risk
wrecking your engine), and much less incentive to illegally dodge the
duty - if it's only a few pence, or nil
>Not an issue with LPG
Put it this way: I wouldn't want to live next to someone who fueled
LPG on a 'roll your own' basis!!! Not even on the same street, thank
you.
Weatherlawyer
shazzbat wrote:
> Can you get red petrol for lawnmowers etc?
You could always make your own from old sump oil and some vanadium wool.
Mr X
Weatherlawyer <Weathe...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>shazzbat wrote:
>
>> Can you get red petrol for lawnmowers etc?
>
>You could always make your own from old sump oil and some vanadium wool.
You can make petrol from wire wool and old sump oil? Awesome!
--
Mr X
Martin
>>>road fuel market is about 30 million tonnes a year and you can only get
>>about half a ton of fuel from 1 acre of arable land.
Genetic engineering is the answer with oil melons (c) me!
Weatherlawyer
Mr X wrote:
> >You could always make your own from old sump oil and some vanadium wool.
> You can make petrol from wire wool and old sump oil? Awesome!
You'd have to look it up for accuracy but that is how crude oil is
refined. After the lighter fractions are boiled off, it is super heated
and passed through the vanadium catalyst.
The sump oil would be cheap enough. Getting hold of the vanadium might
pose a difficulty. Of course there is nothing to stop you electrolysing
water to make the perfect fuel. You would need to get hold of an engine
that would run it though.
Currently the only vehicles I know of designed to carry hydrogen and
oxygen as fuel are rockets.
Fred
<john_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1126776839.9...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Is all the rape-seed oil we use imported then?
So we should pay him the £20k for him to sit on his arse?
I was trying to suggest that set-aside could have an environmentally
friendly alternative. I'm sure the oil companies would take your side.
Ques...@forgotten.what.this.was.now.com
<johnphil...@hotmailREMOVETHEBLEEDINOBVIOUS.com> said:
Yes, by winding up the price via water meters, which would become compulsory.
There are already diseases being spread by essentially unnecessary lack of
hygiene due to saving water by the most poor. Sort of like the reverse of
vaccinations, but encouraged by Labour through additional taxation of the
poorest.
Cynic
<Weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Of course there is nothing to stop you electrolysing
>water to make the perfect fuel. You would need to get hold of an engine
>that would run it though.
>
>Currently the only vehicles I know of designed to carry hydrogen and
>oxygen as fuel are rockets.
Can you see any reason why a conventional internal combustion engine
could not be adapted to run on hydrogen/oxygen or hydrogen/air?
Not sure whether you could carry enough hydrogen as a compressed gas
to last a reasonable amount of time, and carrying liquid hydrogen
would be somewhat impractical.
It would certainly make for zero emissions.
--
Cynic
Clive George
news:iheji1hvi7kgigl4j...@4ax.com...
> Can you see any reason why a conventional internal combustion engine
> could not be adapted to run on hydrogen/oxygen or hydrogen/air?
>
> Not sure whether you could carry enough hydrogen as a compressed gas
> to last a reasonable amount of time, and carrying liquid hydrogen
> would be somewhat impractical.
>
> It would certainly make for zero emissions.
NOx?
cheers,
clive
AlanG
wrote:
>On 15 Sep 2005 09:29:38 -0700, "Weatherlawyer"
><Weathe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Of course there is nothing to stop you electrolysing
>>water to make the perfect fuel. You would need to get hold of an engine
>>that would run it though.
>>
>>Currently the only vehicles I know of designed to carry hydrogen and
>>oxygen as fuel are rockets.
>
>Can you see any reason why a conventional internal combustion engine
>could not be adapted to run on hydrogen/oxygen or hydrogen/air?
Well cars ran on coal gas in WW2. I recall seeing pictures of cars
with gas bags on top of the car carrying coal gas as fuel
Johnnie Scott
???? Been using veg oil in an HDI for some time Only 5 liters per full
tank no problem
"shazzbat" <shaz...@spamlessness.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dg6lsk$9cd$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Tone" <to...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:n4kdi119h1igd56ck...@4ax.com...
>> On 13 Sep 2005 07:34:06 -0500, Mr X <Mr...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <gvcdi1taguf2bim74...@4ax.com>, Cynic
>> ><cyni...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> >>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:26:35 +0100, Sponge Bob Square Pants
>> >><pa...@pants.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>tim (moved to sweden) wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Not if you run your car on them.
>> >>>
>> >>>Could I legally use cooking oil in a diesel lawnmower without paying
> the
>> >>>duty?
>> >>
>> >>Yes, just as you can legally use red diesel in a diesel lawnmower.
>> >
>> >Or in a static generator
>>
>> Or in a narrowboat on the canals
>>
>>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
Cynic
>>Can you see any reason why a conventional internal combustion engine
>>could not be adapted to run on hydrogen/oxygen or hydrogen/air?
>>Not sure whether you could carry enough hydrogen as a compressed gas
>>to last a reasonable amount of time, and carrying liquid hydrogen
>>would be somewhat impractical.
>Well cars ran on coal gas in WW2. I recall seeing pictures of cars
>with gas bags on top of the car carrying coal gas as fuel
True. Not sure how many miles they got to a "tank" though.
I have heard objections that hydrogen would be too dangerous, but ISTM
that it would be less dangerous than either petrol or gas. Any
spillage or leak would dissipate PDQ, unlike petrol where a spill can
take quite a while to evapourate, or gas which is heavier than air and
thus can form pockets in hollows and dips. It could also be odourised
the same as natural gas so that its presence is more easily detected.
Perhaps being a smaller molecule, ot would not produce enoulgh power
output per volume?
--
Cynic
Nick Finnigan
> If you have a steamroller on the road do you have to pay tax on the coal
> ????
Nope. It seems you only pay 'hydrocarbon mineral oil duty' on liquid
fuel substitutes. If you can duplicate Herr Diesel's original engine,
you can run it on coal dust without paying duty.
> Been using veg oil in an HDI for some time Only 5 liters per full
> tank no problem
It looks like you should pay full Diesel rates of duty on veg oil,
unless it is processed and officially recognized as bio-diesel.
Dave Mayall
How?
This is where you explain how to generate Hydrogen without emissions.
Cynic
<da...@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>> Not sure whether you could carry enough hydrogen as a compressed gas
>> to last a reasonable amount of time, and carrying liquid hydrogen
>> would be somewhat impractical.
>>
>> It would certainly make for zero emissions.
>
>How?
I obviously meant no emissions of any pollutant (which is the usual
meaning of the word in this context). The engine would emit water
vapour.
>This is where you explain how to generate Hydrogen without emissions.
Easy. You electrolyse water into hydrogen and oxygen. That process
also generates zero polluting emissions, and is also nearly 100%
efficient (no wasted energy), though compressing the hydrogen into a
cylinder would require unrecoverable energy.
--
Cynic
Dave Mayall
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:40:59 +0100, "Dave Mayall"
> <da...@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Not sure whether you could carry enough hydrogen as a compressed gas
>>> to last a reasonable amount of time, and carrying liquid hydrogen
>>> would be somewhat impractical.
>>>
>>> It would certainly make for zero emissions.
>>
>>How?
>
> I obviously meant no emissions of any pollutant (which is the usual
> meaning of the word in this context). The engine would emit water
> vapour.
Indeed, I wasn't talking about the water vapour.
>>This is where you explain how to generate Hydrogen without emissions.
>
> Easy. You electrolyse water into hydrogen and oxygen. That process
> also generates zero polluting emissions, and is also nearly 100%
> efficient (no wasted energy), though compressing the hydrogen into a
> cylinder would require unrecoverable energy.
OK, you electrolyse water into hydrogen and oxygen. Good.
Now, where does the energy to carry out that elecrolysis come from?
Clive George
> I obviously meant no emissions of any pollutant (which is the usual
> meaning of the word in this context). The engine would emit water
> vapour.
I ask again, NOx?
clive
Steve Walker
<cyni...@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>This is where you explain how to generate Hydrogen without emissions.
>
>Easy. You electrolyse water into hydrogen and oxygen. That process
>also generates zero polluting emissions, and is also nearly 100%
>efficient (no wasted energy), though compressing the hydrogen into a
>cylinder would require unrecoverable energy.
How do you generate the electricity?
--
Steve Walker
sharky
Burn Hydrogen? ;-)
Or cooking oil or diesel!
Dave Mayall
"sharky" <bi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3p0394F...@individual.net...
So not zero emissions then.
Cynic
<da...@research-group.co.uk> wrote:
>> I obviously meant no emissions of any pollutant (which is the usual
>> meaning of the word in this context). The engine would emit water
>> vapour.
>
>Indeed, I wasn't talking about the water vapour.
>
>>>This is where you explain how to generate Hydrogen without emissions.
>>
>> Easy. You electrolyse water into hydrogen and oxygen. That process
>> also generates zero polluting emissions, and is also nearly 100%
>> efficient (no wasted energy), though compressing the hydrogen into a
>> cylinder would require unrecoverable energy.
>
>OK, you electrolyse water into hydrogen and oxygen. Good.
>
>Now, where does the energy to carry out that elecrolysis come from?
It is electrolysis. So the energy is obviously electricity.
Shall I stop my post there and play some more? Nah ...
An electric vehicle is described as a "zero emission" vehicle, so it
is perfectly legitimate for me to describe a hydrogen powered vehicle
in the same terms, which was the limit of my intent in my original
post on the subject.
Yes, I am *well* aware that the electricity used to charge the
electric vehicle or to make the hydrogen *might* have resulted in more
pollution at the power station than running a petrol car, though the
figures used by the anti-electric car lobby are seriously flawed IMO.
But the fact that the electricity *could* be generated by a polluting
power station does not mean that it *must be* so generated. I could
make my hydrogen using electricity that was generated entirely by
wind-energy, or solar energy, or geo-thermal energy. Or even by a
team of people on treadmills. How about a nuclear power station,
where the waste products are arguably in a form that are far less
damaging to the ecology?
Or maybe someone will rescue a small amount from the decline of
Africa, and set up a hydrogen factory in Zimbabwe or Zambia. Those
countries must be needing a fraction of the capacity of the Kariba Dam
hydro-electric station since the collapse of industial activity, and
that surplus would no doubt supply many million miles of
pollution-free transport per month.
(And before you carry on, yes, I am aware that whatever transports the
hydrogen cylinders from there to the UK is likely to cause pollution).
--
Cynic
Cynic
<cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> I obviously meant no emissions of any pollutant (which is the usual
>> meaning of the word in this context). The engine would emit water
>> vapour.
>I ask again, NOx?
That would also be a pollution-free fuel, yes. I've not looked up
what the industrial manufacturing process for it is, nor do I know
anywhere near enough to be able to sensibly compare it with hydrogen
or other fuels in terms of practicality.
--
Cynic
Cynic
<st...@otolith.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Easy. You electrolyse water into hydrogen and oxygen. That process
>>also generates zero polluting emissions, and is also nearly 100%
>>efficient (no wasted energy), though compressing the hydrogen into a
>>cylinder would require unrecoverable energy.
>How do you generate the electricity?
You attach dynamos to small wheels inside 3 million cages, and then
simply add hamsters.
--
Cynic
Ques...@forgotten.what.this.was.now.com
<da...@research-group.co.uk> said:
You don't want to. The idea is to take atmospheric water and break it apart,
feeding in energy from some other source such as fusion plants or solar power,
to obtain hydrogen and oxygen.
The oxygen you release into the atmosphere, the hydrogen you bottle and sell to
vehicle operators.
In due course, the hydrogen comes to be burned to release that energy back to
you in some form, and use up the oxygen released earlier, resulting in
atmospheric water.
The big bonus of this is your fuel weighs very little for the energy stored in
it - the reverse of the battery car.
Clive George
> On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:51:52 +0100, "Clive George"
> <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>> I obviously meant no emissions of any pollutant (which is the usual
>>> meaning of the word in this context). The engine would emit water
>>> vapour.
>
>>I ask again, NOx?
>
> That would also be a pollution-free fuel, yes.
Er - no. It's a pollutant you'll get if you burn hydrogen in air, quantities
depending on how hot your burn is.
In a 3-way catalytic converter, one of the jobs is to break down the NOx.
cheers,
clive
AlanG
wrote:
About 84 tons of hamster shit per day to dispose of assumimg each one
produces an ounce of shit.
Cynic
<cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> I obviously meant no emissions of any pollutant (which is the usual
>>>> meaning of the word in this context). The engine would emit water
>>>> vapour.
>>
>>>I ask again, NOx?
>>
>> That would also be a pollution-free fuel, yes.
>
>Er - no. It's a pollutant you'll get if you burn hydrogen in air, quantities
>depending on how hot your burn is.
Sorry, I thought you were referring to using nitrous oxide as a fuel.
I was unaware that a hydrogen engine would produce oxides of nitrogen.
I should think that it would be possible to reduce it to an acceptable
level, if not zero. If it is a problem, then hydrogen/oxygen instead
of hydrogen/air could be used, though that would increase the amount
of fuel needed to be carried by 50% - but with a considerable increase
in power output, so it may be self-compensating.
--
Cynic
shazzbat
"AlanG" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:rn0mi1lddbaod7e50...@4ax.com...
And let's not forget the hamster farms will be either closed down or
surrounded by the great unwashed demanding ransoms for the return of
exhumed grannies.