Linn and Ariston
Oddjob
LP12 was based upon. They were built in the same factory in Scotland (nr the
airport)
I was also told that Linn patented the design and sold thousands of LP12's
while the owner of Ariston committed suicide.
Is the above correct?
If so, shame on all you LP12 owners.
Nick Gorham
You could say the same for anyone using Windows, IBM were going to use
CPM for the original PC, but the owner wouldn't talk to IBM so Billy Boy
got the job instead.
--
Nick
Tony Gartshore
>
T.
--
Please Tony, NO!! You'd look dreadful in a basque and fishnets..
Keith G
"Nick Gorham" <ni...@lurcher.org> wrote in message
news:2ibninF...@uni-berlin.de...
Serves the twat right - not talking to IBM (especially in those days) is
none too shrewd, is it?
Alan Murphy
news:40c10804$0$20511$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
Gary Kildall was the man in question, who died in 1994. Do a google
on his entry in Wikipedia for the interesting story. Fairly accurate IIRC.
Sad story but fairly common in new technology marketing.
Alan
AudioEnz
odd...@auricenterprises.com wrote on 05/06/2004 4:11 AM:
> Hello all, I've just bought an RD80 and was told that it was the model the
> LP12 was based upon. They were built in the same factory in Scotland (nr the
> airport)
According to Hi-Fi World magazine, Hamish Robertson of Ariston approached
Ivor about his dad's engineering factory building the Ariston turntable (the
RD-11 - the RD80 being a later model). The article suggests that the
engineering factory didn't produce any, but that soon after Ivor started
Linn products.
Some people suggest that Ivor copied the Ariston for his early LP12. I
suspect that what Ivor took was the *idea* of building a turntable.
Take a look at the Thorens TD150 turntable. It fits exactly in a Linn Sondek
plinth. The 150 and the Sondek are two of the very few turntables to have a
full length armboard (the Ariston RD11 certainly didn't). Even the supension
springs are in the same places.
The idea of producing a turntable may have come from Ivor's discussions with
the head of Ariston. But I suspect that the design inspiration came from the
Thorens TD150.
All of this is supposition on my part, and may not be completely accurate.
But you really ought to get Stewart Pinkerton involved in this discussion. I
understand that Pinkie and Ivor exchanged several lawyer's letters over this
subject some years back. Interested in telling us more, Stewart?
Michael Jones
Editor, AudioEnz
---------------------
17 years of New Zealand's hi-fi and home theatre resource
http://www.audioenz.co.nz
Have your say on our forum at http://www.audioenz.co.nz/forums
email: info at audioenz dot co dot nz
Stewart Pinkerton
<odd...@auricenterprises.com> wrote:
>Hello all, I've just bought an RD80 and was told that it was the model the
>LP12 was based upon. They were built in the same factory in Scotland (nr the
>airport)
>
>I was also told that Linn patented the design and sold thousands of LP12's
>while the owner of Ariston committed suicide.
>
>Is the above correct?
Yes.
>If so, shame on all you LP12 owners.
The treachery of the 'designer' is not the fault of the owners. Having
bought a demonstrably inferior mechanism however, is their fault!
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
>In article <40c09f1d$0$4591$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk>, odd...@auricenterprises.com says...
>> Hello all, I've just bought an RD80 and was told that it was the model the
>> LP12 was based upon. They were built in the same factory in Scotland (nr the
>> airport)
Actually, it was the RD11.
>> I was also told that Linn patented the design and sold thousands of LP12's
>> while the owner of Ariston committed suicide.
>>
>> Is the above correct?
>>
>> If so, shame on all you LP12 owners.
>>
>>
>I would have thought that the 'floating' Thorens designs preceeded both of them..
The TD 150 postdated the Linn/Ariston, that part of the design was
based on the AR turntable.
Tony Gartshore
AudioEnz
pat...@dircon.co.uk wrote on 05/06/2004 7:38 PM:
> The TD 150 postdated the Linn/Ariston, that part of the design was
> based on the AR turntable.
That should be "predated" methinks. The Thorens TD150 came out around
1964/65, around the same time as the AR turntable, and remained in
production until 1974, when it was succeeded by the Thorens 160.
Tony Gartshore
> in article c0u2c09l9cvr45o24...@4ax.com, Stewart Pinkerton at
> pat...@dircon.co.uk wrote on 05/06/2004 7:38 PM:
>
> > The TD 150 postdated the Linn/Ariston, that part of the design was
> > based on the AR turntable.
>
> That should be "predated" methinks. The Thorens TD150 came out around
> 1964/65, around the same time as the AR turntable, and remained in
> production until 1974, when it was succeeded by the Thorens 160.
>
>
> Michael Jones
> Editor, AudioEnz
Now you guys are just trying to confuse me aren't you ?
Jim Lesurf
<nospam...@spamblock.com> wrote:
> in article 40c09f1d$0$4591$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk, Oddjob at
> odd...@auricenterprises.com wrote on 05/06/2004 4:11 AM:
> > Hello all, I've just bought an RD80 and was told that it was the model
> > the LP12 was based upon. They were built in the same factory in
> > Scotland (nr the airport)
> According to Hi-Fi World magazine, Hamish Robertson of Ariston
> approached Ivor about his dad's engineering factory building the Ariston
> turntable (the RD-11 - the RD80 being a later model). The article
> suggests that the engineering factory didn't produce any, but that soon
> after Ivor started Linn products.
There are some articles in old issues of magazines like Hi Fi News that
give some details of the history of this. It is, shall we say,
'contentious'. I suspect that Ivor would give you a different view than if
you talk to the familiy of Hamish, or to one or two other people.
> Some people suggest that Ivor copied the Ariston for his early LP12. I
> suspect that what Ivor took was the *idea* of building a turntable.
> Take a look at the Thorens TD150 turntable. It fits exactly in a Linn
> Sondek plinth. The 150 and the Sondek are two of the very few turntables
> to have a full length armboard (the Ariston RD11 certainly didn't). Even
> the supension springs are in the same places.
> The idea of producing a turntable may have come from Ivor's discussions
> with the head of Ariston. But I suspect that the design inspiration came
> from the Thorens TD150.
I can't recall the details off-hand (I'd need to re-read the old articles).
However IIRC there were also technical points like the way the turntable
bearing is arranged.
> But you really ought to get Stewart Pinkerton involved in this
> discussion. I understand that Pinkie and Ivor exchanged several lawyer's
> letters over this subject some years back. Interested in telling us
> more, Stewart?
FWIW I also supplied some information from published sources to the
relatives of Hamish some time ago. Unfortunately, this is an area where -
for legal reasons - some people may know more than they would choose to say
in public. This does not mean *me*, but at least one other person that I
have in mind. As a result, much of what one picks up is on a 'hearsay'
basis which makes it hard to assess.
Slainte,
Jim
--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
Stewart Pinkerton
<jc...@st-and.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <BCE7CE38.442E4%nospam...@spamblock.com>, AudioEnz
><nospam...@spamblock.com> wrote:
>> in article 40c09f1d$0$4591$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk, Oddjob at
>> odd...@auricenterprises.com wrote on 05/06/2004 4:11 AM:
>
>> > Hello all, I've just bought an RD80 and was told that it was the model
>> > the LP12 was based upon. They were built in the same factory in
>> > Scotland (nr the airport)
>
>> According to Hi-Fi World magazine, Hamish Robertson of Ariston
>> approached Ivor about his dad's engineering factory building the Ariston
>> turntable (the RD-11 - the RD80 being a later model). The article
>> suggests that the engineering factory didn't produce any, but that soon
>> after Ivor started Linn products.
>
>There are some articles in old issues of magazines like Hi Fi News that
>give some details of the history of this. It is, shall we say,
>'contentious'. I suspect that Ivor would give you a different view than if
>you talk to the familiy of Hamish, or to one or two other people.
You can say that again! :-)
>> Some people suggest that Ivor copied the Ariston for his early LP12. I
>> suspect that what Ivor took was the *idea* of building a turntable.
>
>> Take a look at the Thorens TD150 turntable. It fits exactly in a Linn
>> Sondek plinth. The 150 and the Sondek are two of the very few turntables
>> to have a full length armboard (the Ariston RD11 certainly didn't). Even
>> the supension springs are in the same places.
>
>> The idea of producing a turntable may have come from Ivor's discussions
>> with the head of Ariston. But I suspect that the design inspiration came
>> from the Thorens TD150.
>
>I can't recall the details off-hand (I'd need to re-read the old articles).
>However IIRC there were also technical points like the way the turntable
>bearing is arranged.
Quite so. There's little doubt that the layout of the main parts of
the RD11/LP12 was based on either the AR turntable or the TD 150
(launched in 1965, six years before the RD11/LP12). The TD150 itself
*may* have been based on the classic AR table (or not, depending on
your view of history, since the AR XA and TD150 were launched almost
simultaneously).
The point of contention (pun intended) was the origin of the 'single
point' bearing which became the Linn logo (for anyone who wondered why
the logo looks like it does!).
>> But you really ought to get Stewart Pinkerton involved in this
>> discussion. I understand that Pinkie and Ivor exchanged several lawyer's
>> letters over this subject some years back. Interested in telling us
>> more, Stewart?
We did have a 'frank and forthright exchange of views', although Ivor
never did carry out his threatened libel action - I may have persuaded
him that truth is always a good defence in such matters! :-)
Anyone who is interested in an unbiased view of the true worth of the
Linn LP12 Sondek is advised to check out
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Tables.html
which has one of the most objective and dispassionate deconstructions
of that over-rated piece of trash that I have seen. It also contains a
hilariously accurate view of 'Linnies', as seen by the bemused
bystander!
>FWIW I also supplied some information from published sources to the
>relatives of Hamish some time ago. Unfortunately, this is an area where -
>for legal reasons - some people may know more than they would choose to say
>in public. This does not mean *me*, but at least one other person that I
>have in mind. As a result, much of what one picks up is on a 'hearsay'
>basis which makes it hard to assess.
I had my information directly from Hamish, and I was also approached
by his daughter quite recently, following a somewhat acerbic exchange
of newgroup posts and e-mails between myself and Ivor, and threats of
legal action from him. These threats mysteriously evaporated when it
became obvious that I *would* pursue the matter if he really wished
all that dirty linen to be splattered across the press again. Suffice
it to say that, given the cheap tricks used by Ivor over several
decades to promote his 'average at best' products, and given his known
ruthlessness in business (ask any of the hundreds of ex-Linn dealers
who refused to toe the party line of sneakily biasing all demos
towards Linn), I know which side of the story *I* believe........
Intriguingly, I was approached by Hamish' daughter because she was in
fear of violent repercussions following her visits to Ivor in an
attempt to obtain redress for past wrongs. He seems to have a very
dark reputation indeed in the darker areas of Glasgow society, and
given the young lady's recollections of what had happened between Ivor
and Hamish at his several visits to Hamish' house, I have little doubt
as to Ivor's willingness to misappropriate anything he could lay his
hands on. Such is of course mere hearsay in a legal sense, but let me
ask just this simple question. Is there anyone, anywhere, who believes
that Ivor Tiefenbrun is an *honest* man?
Stewart Pinkerton
<nospam...@spamblock.com> wrote:
>in article c0u2c09l9cvr45o24...@4ax.com, Stewart Pinkerton at
>pat...@dircon.co.uk wrote on 05/06/2004 7:38 PM:
>
>> The TD 150 postdated the Linn/Ariston, that part of the design was
>> based on the AR turntable.
>
>That should be "predated" methinks. The Thorens TD150 came out around
>1964/65, around the same time as the AR turntable, and remained in
>production until 1974, when it was succeeded by the Thorens 160.
Bugger! Quite right Michael, and apologies to Tony for the confusion.
The TD150 was of course launched in 1965, pretty much simultaneously
with the AR XA across the Pond, as you say. I was indeed thinking of
the TD 160. Given my intense awareness of who copied whom in the heady
days of the early '70s, that was an unforgiveable blunder!