Misandry (opposite of Misogyny)
Fleetie
Firstly, what about the word "misandry"? Is it correct? I mean to convey
hatred of men, as opposed to hatred of women. I first thought of using
something like "misanthropy", but I thought that might convey hatred of
humankind in general, the "anthrop" prefix being more neuter than "andr",
if I am correct.
Anyway. I suppose this post comes about because of something Jodi wrote
in a thread about contraception and single mothers and how they were not to
blame; it was the MEN who didn't face up to their responsibilities. This
really did seem rather "misandric" to me, but it got me thinking. About
whether Jodi really does hate men the way some of her posts suggest, and
about how I feel about them myself. I wouldn't have such a problem about
Jodi's apparent opinion if it were not for the fact that she goes out with
men (as opposed to women). So she can't hate them all, yet.... (And it's
absolutely none of my business; I am using her as an example because of
things I have seen her post.) So no offence intended.
But then it comes to me: In many cases I really do hate men. Like when
I'm on a bus, I have a real _problem_ with it if a man dares to sit
directly in front of me, or worse yet, next to me. Directly behind me
is bad, but only very bad if they're the kind of slob who coughs without
covering their mouth. It's not hard to figure out why I hate men; anyone
who knows me either already knows or can easily figure it out. For the
others, part of it is that I loathe everything that is considered
masculine, macho, male and so on. Especially aspects of behaviour.
For what it's worth, I object a hell of a lot less to goth males, unless
they're dickheads for some other reason.
But it was weird. Part of me was crying out in anger at what Jodi wrote,
yet part of me was saying, "Well, yes, they are mostly arseholes." So I
didn't really know where I stood concerning her apparent disdain for them
(us).
Of course, this post has a lot to do with the effeminate male thing
which those who know me will know interests me a lot.
I should say that I don't have anything like such a problem with males
I know in a professional capacity only. These are intelligent people who
behave in a civilised and professional matter; their gender does not
affect their behaviour in any adverse way. (I'm rushing this paragraph a
bit because I am writing it last, after the paragraph below, because I
want to get off home, so apologies if it's not well thought through.)
Male gender does become a problem, in my view and experience, when
behaviour is not constrained by requirements such as professionalism -
and perhaps by some constraints that being a goth (for example) might
impose. Something to comment on, at least.
Another thing that alarmed the hell out of me some months ago: On TV some
female labour councillor or politician mentioned the possibility looking
at the idea of a curfew for _all_ males in Britain. My mind started
spinning; it doesn't bear thinking about; so I told myself it would be
completely unenforceable and would never, ever get though, but the thought
that someone would dare to mention the idea on TV wouldn't go away. But
then I thought, "but almost all men are horrible" and I could almost see
the reasoning behind such a draconian measure, but I was still there,
crying "But I'm male! I don't want to be lumped in with _them_. How
can I get out of this?" "Gender reassignment" wasn't an option, I'm afraid.
I wouldn't do it. I would consider it if the result was indistuinguishable
from the intended result, but it isn't and I'm straight anyway and I am
digressing so I'll shut up now.
Hope this hasn't caused too much offence to people, but I've been
thinking about it for a while now, so I thought I'd post something.
Fleetie.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
'"I don't care!": If only I could say that and not feel so sick and scared'
M.A.Poyser, Manchester, UK Goth, Unix S/w Developer -The Cure
Email : fle...@rsi.co.uk Telephone : 0966 396488 "The Top"
Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard)
| Fleetie brought forth ...
> Firstly, what about the word "misandry"? Is it correct? I mean to convey
> hatred of men, as opposed to hatred of women. I first thought of using
> something like "misanthropy", but I thought that might convey hatred of
> humankind in general, the "anthrop" prefix being more neuter than "andr",
> if I am correct.
As far as I know there is (or was) no word in the English language for 'hatred
of men'. I guess that men of the past could not imagine a use for such a word.
> But then it comes to me: In many cases I really do hate men. Like when
> I'm on a bus, I have a real _problem_ with it if a man dares to sit
> directly in front of me, or worse yet, next to me. Directly behind me
> is bad, but only very bad if they're the kind of slob who coughs without
> covering their mouth. It's not hard to figure out why I hate men; anyone
> who knows me either already knows or can easily figure it out. For the
> others, part of it is that I loathe everything that is considered
> masculine, macho, male and so on. Especially aspects of behaviour.
I don't loathe masculinity, but the obsession of the general public with it
bothers me. I consider it both unnecessary and damaging. In the same way I'm
disturbed by, for example, the way the female fashion world force an
unnatural concept of 'beauty' on us all.
> I should say that I don't have anything like such a problem with males
> I know in a professional capacity only. These are intelligent people who
> behave in a civilised and professional matter; their gender does not
> affect their behaviour in any adverse way. (I'm rushing this paragraph a
> bit because I am writing it last, after the paragraph below, because I
> want to get off home, so apologies if it's not well thought through.)
> Male gender does become a problem, in my view and experience, when
> behaviour is not constrained by requirements such as professionalism -
> and perhaps by some constraints that being a goth (for example) might
> impose. Something to comment on, at least.
Problem is, you can't overcome a few million years of evolution with a
thousand or so of civilisation (not a word I like to use to describe society
today but you know what I mean).
> Another thing that alarmed the hell out of me some months ago: On TV some
> female labour councillor or politician mentioned the possibility looking
> at the idea of a curfew for _all_ males in Britain. My mind started
> spinning; it doesn't bear thinking about; so I told myself it would be
> completely unenforceable and would never, ever get though, but the thought
I didn't hear that, but let me guess.... Clare Short? Anyway, no, it couldn't
be enforced - there aren't enough women in the police force!
> that someone would dare to mention the idea on TV wouldn't go away. But
> then I thought, "but almost all men are horrible" and I could almost see
> the reasoning behind such a draconian measure, but I was still there,
The first two things they should do...
1. Get rid of restrictions on opening hours - that would reduce the number of
twats who have to knock back lots of drink quickly before closing. It would
also reduce conflicts that occur when different sub-cultures get turfed out on
the streets at the same time.
2. Legalise cannabis. Violent crime would be reduced by a massive amount.
> crying "But I'm male! I don't want to be lumped in with _them_. How
> can I get out of this?" "Gender reassignment" wasn't an option, I'm afraid.
> I wouldn't do it. I would consider it if the result was indistuinguishable
> from the intended result, but it isn't and I'm straight anyway and I am
> digressing so I'll shut up now.
I can sympathise. I don't want to be lumped in with them either. I'm quite
capable of being an arsehole independent of my gender.
/Mel!/
Tri...@irkar.demon.co.uk
On 8 Jan 1998 19:36:26 GMT, m...@spam.is.the.devils.spunk.cix.co.uk
(Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard)) wrote:
>| Fleetie brought forth ...
>
>> Firstly, what about the word "misandry"? Is it correct? I mean to convey
>> hatred of men, as opposed to hatred of women. I first thought of using
>> something like "misanthropy", but I thought that might convey hatred of
>> humankind in general, the "anthrop" prefix being more neuter than "andr",
>> if I am correct.
>
>As far as I know there is (or was) no word in the English language for 'hatred
>of men'. I guess that men of the past could not imagine a use for such a word.
>
As far as I know 'misandry' is the correct word.
Trizia
Graham Clark
In article <34b53ed8...@news.demon.co.uk>, Tri...@irkar.demon.co.uk
writes
>On 8 Jan 1998 19:36:26 GMT, m...@spam.is.the.devils.spunk.cix.co.uk
>(Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard)) wrote:
>
>>| Fleetie brought forth ...
>>
>>> Firstly, what about the word "misandry"? Is it correct? I mean to convey
>>> hatred of men, as opposed to hatred of women. I first thought of using
>>> something like "misanthropy", but I thought that might convey hatred of
>>> humankind in general, the "anthrop" prefix being more neuter than "andr",
>>> if I am correct.
Anthropos, Greek, Human being. Anthropology, the study of people
(in social and societal terms). Misanthropology, the study of why people
are no damn good.
In general, misanthropic is what I've been trying to be when
somebody accuses me of being misogynistic. I'm told my squeals of
outrage can be quite amusing.
>>As far as I know there is (or was) no word in the English language for 'hatred
>>of men'. I guess that men of the past could not imagine a use for such a word.
>>
>As far as I know 'misandry' is the correct word.
I've more commonly heard it as the noun "misandrous", but yes,
it is used and generally understood. Although oddly it's not in my
dictionary.
--
Graham Clark
Jennie Kermode
> | Fleetie brought forth ...
>
> > Another thing that alarmed the hell out of me some months ago: On TV some
> > female labour councillor or politician mentioned the possibility looking
> > at the idea of a curfew for _all_ males in Britain. My mind started
> > spinning; it doesn't bear thinking about; so I told myself it would be
> > completely unenforceable and would never, ever get though, but the thought
That's scary! Most of my friends are male, and I'm mostly awake
at night... I would have no-one to hang out with anymore. :( Of course,
though, plenty of women would resist it. It's a few years since I've done
drag (I never got tall enough for it to be convincing in adulthood), but I
figure I could manage it again in the name of causing trouble for the
law. ;) And I'm quite happy to 'disguise' men in make-up and skirts... :)
> > then I thought, "but almost all men are horrible" and I could almost see
> > the reasoning behind such a draconian measure, but I was still there,
Most _people_ are horrible, though. There are plenty of female
psychos out there, and if the men were all locked up after hours there would,
so to speak, be a gap in the market for enterprising females with an interest
in mugging, assault etc.
There is reasoning behind that kind of measure, but then there is
_reasoning_ behind the methods of the average serial killer - doesn't make it
smart government policy.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
Gothcode 3.0A:- GoAu7$CS3 TGlTgFeNr9 PMoRSg B20/48Bk"3 cBk9
V6s M3p1GooFanPuoCl C6p a23-(14) n6 b54 H163 g7!??76A m0@26
w7A v5S r3E p75765Rd D77* h7AdFeGl sF5PSrWy k7BdSMmDspFNRWT
N0893NEH Hfs5p10 LukGla9
Soliare
In article <884319...@skinner.fish.demon.co.uk>,
jen...@innocent.com writes:
>> | Fleetie brought forth ...
>>
> Most _people_ are horrible, though. There are plenty of female
>psychos out there, and if the men were all locked up after hours there would,
>so to speak, be a gap in the market for enterprising females with an interest
>in mugging, assault etc.
> There is reasoning behind that kind of measure, but then there is
>_reasoning_ behind the methods of the average serial killer - doesn't make it
>smart government policy.
I agree, most people are deeply unpleasant. The problem is that, while
there are sound social reasons for not imposing curfews, punishments etc.
if something happens to you it is very difficult to take a reasoned attitude.
Given the choice, you would not give out a sensible punishment, but
attempt to take revenge.
Soliare, not at all bitter because he recently got attacked and would quite
happily have the little maggot who did subjected to the death penalty.
Paul Kinsler
Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard) <m...@spam.is.the.devils.spunk.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> I don't loathe masculinity, but the obsession of the general public with it
> bothers me. I consider it both unnecessary and damaging. In the same way I'm
> disturbed by, for example, the way the female fashion world force an
> unnatural concept of 'beauty' on us all.
I've never really understood this last attitude. The 'female fashion world'
is about fashion, and as such might well attemt to force an unnatural concept
of fashion on us all. However, while fashion might well be related to
beauty, it is not the same thing.
--
#Paul.
------------------------------+soluble fish+------------------------------
Inst Microwaves & Photonics, University of Leeds, UK. (ph) +44 113 2332089
"You people, you do not see the grandeur in the wind and stone and stars,
in the blood and fire and iron - but paint only the flowers."
Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard)
| brought forth ...
> >As far as I know there is (or was) no word in the English language for 'hatred
> >of men'. I guess that men of the past could not imagine a use for such a word.
> >
> As far as I know 'misandry' is the correct word.
Is it a recent addition then?
/Mel!/
Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard)
| Jennie Kermode brought forth ...
> > > then I thought, "but almost all men are horrible" and I could almost see
> > > the reasoning behind such a draconian measure, but I was still there,
>
> Most _people_ are horrible, though. There are plenty of female
> psychos out there, and if the men were all locked up after hours there would,
> so to speak, be a gap in the market for enterprising females with an interest
> in mugging, assault etc.
Actually, yeah, good point. It depends on just how horrible. Being generally
obnoxious is common to both sexes, but crime, and violent crime in particular,
is mostly a male thing.
/Mel!/
Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard)
> > I don't loathe masculinity, but the obsession of the general public with it
> > bothers me. I consider it both unnecessary and damaging. In the same way I'm
> > disturbed by, for example, the way the female fashion world force an
> > unnatural concept of 'beauty' on us all.
>
> I've never really understood this last attitude. The 'female fashion world'
> is about fashion, and as such might well attemt to force an unnatural concept
> of fashion on us all. However, while fashion might well be related to
> beauty, it is not the same thing.
I didn't really put that well (and don't have time right now to expand much). As
an example though - this obsession with the fashion world that stick-like seven
stone six foot women are the pinnacle of what's attractive - /that/ bothers me.
Partly because I don't find it at all attractive [1], but mostly because of the
problems it creates in gullible teenagers.
/Mel!/
[1] The most attractive thing about women is their variety. There is no ideal [2]
[2] And that goes for the 0.7 waist/hip ratio thing too IMHO
Jodi Quinn
Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard) wrote:
>
> Actually, yeah, good point. It depends on just how horrible. Being generally
> obnoxious is common to both sexes, but crime, and violent crime in particular,
> is mostly a male thing.
>
are quite frighteningly rising.
Jodi
Jodi Quinn
Fleetie wrote:
>
> Firstly, what about the word "misandry"? Is it correct? I mean to convey
> hatred of men, as opposed to hatred of women. I first thought of using
> something like "misanthropy", but I thought that might convey hatred of
> humankind in general, the "anthrop" prefix being more neuter than "andr",
> if I am correct.
>
> Anyway. I suppose this post comes about because of something Jodi wrote
> in a thread about contraception and single mothers and how they were not to
> blame; it was the MEN who didn't face up to their responsibilities. This
> really did seem rather "misandric" to me, but it got me thinking. About
> whether Jodi really does hate men the way some of her posts suggest, and
> about how I feel about them myself. I wouldn't have such a problem about
> Jodi's apparent opinion if it were not for the fact that she goes out with
> men (as opposed to women). So she can't hate them all, yet.... (And it's
> absolutely none of my business; I am using her as an example because of
> things I have seen her post.) So no offence intended.
<rest of Fleetie's wisdom snipped>
Just to clarify, I don't necessarily hate all men and I know we
shouldn't generalize but sometimes it's hard not to.
I have a pretty low opinion of most of the human race; I just haven't
felt the need to bitch about women lately :)
It was just in this context I was referring to the fact that society
seems to need to villify single mothers rather than fathers who don't
support their children. I know they had a go at this with the CSA but
somehow irresponsible fathers ended up being portrayed as the victims
and women got it again (well the children are the real victims but
that's not really the point here).
Generally speaking the men that I'm down on are the same macho idiots
Fleetie was on about. And I'm fully aware that most of them have their
female counterparts.
Jodi
Paul Kinsler
Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard) <m...@spam.is.the.devils.spunk.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> Actually, yeah, good point. It depends on just how horrible. Being generally
> obnoxious is common to both sexes, but crime, and violent crime in particular,
> is mostly a male thing.
But wouldn't it be fairer to have the curfew on just those who
have been convicted of violence? Of course, that wouldn't
solve the problem of violence in the home, as the blanket curfew
also fails to do.
Incarnadine
Paul Kinsler <kin...@bloch.leeds.ac.uk> wrote in article
<6954ng$s60$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>...
with it
> > bothers me. I consider it both unnecessary and damaging. In the same
way I'm
> > disturbed by, for example, the way the female fashion world force an
> > unnatural concept of 'beauty' on us all.
>
> I've never really understood this last attitude. The 'female fashion
world'
> is about fashion, and as such might well attemt to force an unnatural
concept
> of fashion on us all. However, while fashion might well be related to
> beauty, it is not the same thing.
>
> #Paul.
The female fashion world might be about fashion, but I think Mel's comment
referred more to the icons of fashion like Jodi Kidd (six feet and seven
and a half stone) and Kate Moss. The way they are (ie painfully and
dangerously thin) are put up as the ideal and this therefore has a
detrimental effect on young girls who feel that to be attractive to others
they must conform to this image. Beauty is something that no two people
have the same opinion about, and therefore there cannot be one 'image'
which is considered beautiful by all. And girls taking speed and forcing
themselves to emete their food in order to remain underweight is not
beautiful, it's horrific.
-- Lyssa
Corporate Goth Bitch
================
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2712
Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard)
| Paul Kinsler brought forth ...
> > Actually, yeah, good point. It depends on just how horrible. Being
generally
> > obnoxious is common to both sexes, but crime, and violent crime in
particular,
> > is mostly a male thing.
>
> But wouldn't it be fairer to have the curfew on just those who
> have been convicted of violence? Of course, that wouldn't
> solve the problem of violence in the home, as the blanket curfew
> also fails to do.
<not the nine o'clock news>
I'm afraid that there is only one answer. Cut the goolies off.
</not the nine o'clock news>
But seriously. The big problem would be in the policing of it all. I
don't know about these electronic tagging schemes, maybe they'd be the
answer. Perhaps a combo tag/10KV generator.
/Mel!/
Tal
Sadly I missed the original post, so I'm unable to determine whether
this really was trolling or a mighty good piece of po-faced irony.
Just try inserting the word 'woman', 'Jamaican' or 'manual labourer'
for 'man' in the below, and see how acceptable it is as a
conversation.
On 8 Jan 1998 19:36:26 GMT, m...@spam.is.the.devils.spunk.cix.co.uk
(Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard)) wrote:
>| Fleetie brought forth ...
<snip>
>> But then it comes to me: In many cases I really do hate men. Like when
>> I'm on a bus, I have a real _problem_ with it if a man dares to sit
>> directly in front of me, or worse yet, next to me. Directly behind me
>> is bad, but only very bad if they're the kind of slob who coughs without
>> covering their mouth. It's not hard to figure out why I hate men; anyone
>> who knows me either already knows or can easily figure it out. For the
>> others, part of it is that I loathe everything that is considered
>> masculine, macho, male and so on. Especially aspects of behaviour.
>
>I don't loathe masculinity, but the obsession of the general public with it
>bothers me. I consider it both unnecessary and damaging. In the same way I'm
>disturbed by, for example, the way the female fashion world force an
>unnatural concept of 'beauty' on us all.
>
>> I should say that I don't have anything like such a problem with males
>> I know in a professional capacity only. These are intelligent people who
>> behave in a civilised and professional matter; their gender does not
>> affect their behaviour in any adverse way. (I'm rushing this paragraph a
>> bit because I am writing it last, after the paragraph below, because I
>> want to get off home, so apologies if it's not well thought through.)
>> Male gender does become a problem, in my view and experience, when
>> behaviour is not constrained by requirements such as professionalism -
>> and perhaps by some constraints that being a goth (for example) might
>> impose. Something to comment on, at least.
>
>Problem is, you can't overcome a few million years of evolution with a
>thousand or so of civilisation (not a word I like to use to describe society
>today but you know what I mean).
>
>> Another thing that alarmed the hell out of me some months ago: On TV some
>> female labour councillor or politician mentioned the possibility looking
>> at the idea of a curfew for _all_ males in Britain. My mind started
>> spinning; it doesn't bear thinking about; so I told myself it would be
>> completely unenforceable and would never, ever get though, but the thought
>
>I didn't hear that, but let me guess.... Clare Short? Anyway, no, it couldn't
>be enforced - there aren't enough women in the police force!
>
>> that someone would dare to mention the idea on TV wouldn't go away. But
>> then I thought, "but almost all men are horrible" and I could almost see
>> the reasoning behind such a draconian measure, but I was still there,
>
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
| Rowenta Goth Bitch [1] brought forth ...
> The female fashion world might be about fashion, but I think Mel's comment
> referred more to the icons of fashion like Jodi Kidd (six feet and seven
> and a half stone) and Kate Moss. The way they are (ie painfully and
> dangerously thin) are put up as the ideal and this therefore has a
> detrimental effect on young girls who feel that to be attractive to others
> they must conform to this image. Beauty is something that no two people
> have the same opinion about, and therefore there cannot be one 'image'
> which is considered beautiful by all. And girls taking speed and forcing
> themselves to emete their food in order to remain underweight is not
> beautiful, it's horrific.
So, did you read my further post before writing this or did you guess (with
complete accuracy)?
ps. Misandry - it it genuine or not? It's buggering my spelling checker
that's for sure!
/Mel!/
[1] Cough, sorry, couldn't resist =:-)
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
| Tal brought forth ...
> Sadly I missed the original post, so I'm unable to determine whether
> this really was trolling or a mighty good piece of po-faced irony.
> Just try inserting the word 'woman', 'Jamaican' or 'manual labourer'
> for 'man' in the below, and see how acceptable it is as a
> conversation.
Just try inserting the word 'pixie' instead. Or Spice Girl... or
Teletubbie [2]... or ex-president of the United States [3]... or...
okay I'll shut up now.
<big snip in the interests of bandwidth - you'll just have to go back>
ps. Fleetie certainly isn't a troll.
/Mel!/
[1] Apologies to the House Of Scathe - no offence intended.
[2] Shut up Clair!
[3] And you Ronald!
Incarnadine
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite) <m...@shove.your.spam.cix.co.uk> wrote in article
<memo.19980109...@mel.compulink.co.uk>...
> | Rowenta Goth Bitch [1] brought forth ...
Ahem!! Behave yourself, young Mellor me lad.....
> So, did you read my further post before writing this or did you guess
(with
> complete accuracy)?
I read your post about two seconds after having posted mine. Ah well.
> ps. Misandry - it it genuine or not? It's buggering my spelling checker
> that's for sure!
Well, the Psion 3C spellchecker and thesaurus doesn't acknowledge it as a
real word.....
However, monandry is the possession by a woman of only one husband at the
same time; -- contrasted with polyandry, which is the possession by a woman
of more than one husband at the same time. And monogyny is marriage with
just one woman at a time etc.
gyno = female
andro = male (hence androgynous)
So if one can have misogyny, I don't see why one can't also have misandry.
Spire
Attributions mangled somewhere along the way. Raise a hand if
you want to own up at all...
> > But wouldn't it be fairer to have the curfew on just those who
> > have been convicted of violence? Of course, that wouldn't
> > solve the problem of violence in the home, as the blanket curfew
> > also fails to do.
>
> <not the nine o'clock news>
>
> I'm afraid that there is only one answer. Cut the goolies off.
>
> </not the nine o'clock news>
>
<git mode=miserable>
If only that hadn't been suggested seriously about 15 years ago
(at least) it'd be amusing.
It always strikes me as ironic, if not unpleasant, that there's
a distinct difference between what a woman can say (in jest or
otherwise) as regards men, and sound heroic, and what a man can
say towards women and be labelled a chauvinist emotional fuckwit
(apologies, been reading Bridget Jones).
Bigotry is bigotry, whichever way round it may be.
</git>
--
pre - liver transplant specialist and secret lemonade drinker
p...@pre.org www.pre.org/pre bedlam.arkham.to 4040
Whisky Dave
Jodi Quinn <jodi....@man.NOSPAM.ac.uk> wrote in article
<34B689...@man.NOSPAM.ac.uk>...
> Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard) wrote:
> >
> > Actually, yeah, good point. It depends on just how horrible. Being
generally
> > obnoxious is common to both sexes, but crime, and violent crime in
particular,
> > is mostly a male thing.
> >
> This is true but the percentage for females engaging in violent crime
> are quite frighteningly rising.
>
A friend of mine was in Stoke-on-Trent recently and heard about an argument
in a pub there between a few individuals, one of them being a 70 year old
women who got her knife out and started threatening someone.
Whisky Dave
Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard)
<m...@spam.is.the.devils.spunk.cix.co.uk> wrote in article
<memo.19980109...@mel.compulink.co.uk>...
<snip>
>
> I didn't really put that well (and don't have time right now to expand
much). As
> an example though - this obsession with the fashion world that stick-like
seven
> stone six foot women are the pinnacle of what's attractive - /that/
bothers me.
> Partly because I don't find it at all attractive [1], but mostly because
of the
> problems it creates in gullible teenagers.
>
> /Mel!/
I don't think it effects that many compared to latest crazes like Spice
Girls, TV etc.
And not that many are dedicated enough to slim down to a dangerous level,
far less in fact than those that are going to do themselves in via
drink/drugs and having relationships with total shitheads or getting in
with the 'wrong' crowd.
BTW Anyone else hear about the 13 year old girl that weighted 48 stone and
died in the last day or so due to her size.
>
> [1] The most attractive thing about women is their variety. There is no
ideal [2]
> [2] And that goes for the 0.7 waist/hip ratio thing too IMHO
I tend to like my women somewhere between the cooker and the kitchen sink
;-)
>
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
| Spire brought forth ...
> > I'm afraid that there is only one answer. Cut the goolies off.
>
> It always strikes me as ironic, if not unpleasant, that there's
> a distinct difference between what a woman can say (in jest or
> otherwise) as regards men, and sound heroic, and what a man can
> say towards women and be labelled a chauvinist emotional fuckwit
> (apologies, been reading Bridget Jones).
>
> Bigotry is bigotry, whichever way round it may be.
Not sure what brought that on, but in case you thought I was a
rampant feminist, and didn't already know, I am in fact distinctly
male.
/Mel!/
Mark Rae
"Whisky Dave" <d.wil...@qmw.NOBOTTLES.ac.uk> writes:
>BTW Anyone else hear about the 13 year old girl that weighted 48 stone and
>died in the last day or so due to her size.
According to the news this morning they were trying to decide whether or
not to charge her parents under the child abuse laws.
-Mark
--
Mark Rae T 0131 650-3265
Department of Physiology F 0131 650-6527
Edinburgh University E Mark...@ed.ac.uk
Spire
at you. Probably stems from being raised as the only male in
the house for...ooh...years - women in groups can be so
cruel.
<if reader.nationality = "american" {
declare(irony);
}>
Besides, it was obvious you're a bloke - women don't get
allowed on computers, do they? Isn't there cleaning or something
to be done?
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
| Spire brought forth ...
> > Not sure what brought that on, but in case you thought I was a
> > rampant feminist, and didn't already know, I am in fact distinctly
> > male.
> >
> Well, you chopped out a bit of context, but no, not having a go
Yeah, I try to conserve bandwidth. Dunno why as most on here [I
suspect] have free access.
> at you. Probably stems from being raised as the only male in
> the house for...ooh...years - women in groups can be so
> cruel.
In groups only? =;-)
> Besides, it was obvious you're a bloke - women don't get
> allowed on computers, do they? Isn't there cleaning or something
> to be done?
Not until after the cooking. The correct sequence (I got this from a
1950's public information broadcast) is... cook, clean, get shagged.
=:-o
/Mel!/
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
| Incarnadine brought forth ...
> gyno = female
> andro = male (hence androgynous)
Is andro the root of android? Do gynoids dream of electric rams?
> So if one can have misogyny, I don't see why one can't also have
misandry.
Yes, but my point is... is everyone making it up or is it an accepted
and defined word?
/Mel!/
VKC20
On 9 Jan 1998, Incarnadine spake forth:
> The way they are (ie painfully and
> dangerously thin) are put up as the ideal and this therefore has a
> detrimental effect on young girls who feel that to be attractive to others
> they must conform to this image.
Hang on, hang on, how do we justify a bunch of goths talking about
skinniness as a bad ideal to have? Are we just supposed to look like that
naturally..? I don't wish to be antagonistic but i'm a bit lost here... I
know I have a friend who occasionally stops eating in the name of being
a skinny goth bloke for several days or weeks at a time, until he looks
dead and all he can do is sleep, and I don't on the whole think it's good
for him. I can see the flames flying towards me as I speak, but it can't
be denied that there is a big skinny thing going on in goth as well,
whether it's advocated or not- perhaps we should look to our own, er,
whatever it is you're supposed to look to. Social conventions in this case
probably?
Archaea
*still on the post-Christmas fashion victim diet*
Tri...@irkar.demon.co.uk
On 9 Jan 1998 12:32:23 GMT, m...@spam.is.the.devils.spunk.cix.co.uk
Well, I'm not sure of when it came into wider use but it is in our
copy of the OED, printed in 1993.
Trizia
Tri...@irkar.demon.co.uk
On 9 Jan 1998 16:44:38 GMT, "Whisky Dave"
<d.wil...@qmw.NOBOTTLES.ac.uk> wrote:
>BTW Anyone else hear about the 13 year old girl that weighted 48 stone and
>died in the last day or so due to her size.
>
Actually she died last year sometime, and it was her mother's trial
that generated the publicity. They found her guilty of abuse and
neglect but I haven't heard what the sentence is to be.
Trizia
Alexander
On Fri, 09 Jan 1998 23:58:39 GMT, Trizia wrote:
>>Is it a recent addition then?
>
>Well, I'm not sure of when it came into wider use but it is in our
>copy of the OED, printed in 1993.
It wasn't around in 1986 ;)
I can't believe I actually tried to read (and memorise) the dictionary
when I was younger. I think I only got as far as about 'c' as well.
--
~Alexander - Gothic Industrial Metalhead Thing
Anarchism is founded on the observation that since few men are wise enough to rule themselves, even fewer are wise enough to rule others. - Edward Abbey
Alexander
On 9 Jan 1998 19:26:05 GMT, Mel wrote:
>Yes, but my point is... is everyone making it up or is it an accepted
>and defined word?
Well, questions like that can be answered easily. It's not defined in
the Oxford English Dictionary and, as such, isn't part of the
'official' English Language.
However, my dictionary is a bit out of date and new words 'enter' the
English Language all the time. But usually, if it isn't in the OED, it
isn't a 'real word'. Chambers is a little bit more flexible as well.
I'm wondering who will be the first person to go into a book shop and
check the most recent version of the OED, thus killing this thread off
and shutting everyone else up. It could be you...!
Tal
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:39:15 GMT, alex...@deathsdoor.com (Alexander)
wrote:
>On 9 Jan 1998 19:26:05 GMT, Mel wrote:
>
>>Yes, but my point is... is everyone making it up or is it an accepted
>>and defined word?
>
>Well, questions like that can be answered easily. It's not defined in
>the Oxford English Dictionary and, as such, isn't part of the
>'official' English Language.
>
>However, my dictionary is a bit out of date and new words 'enter' the
>English Language all the time. But usually, if it isn't in the OED, it
>isn't a 'real word'. Chambers is a little bit more flexible as well.
>
>I'm wondering who will be the first person to go into a book shop and
>check the most recent version of the OED, thus killing this thread off
>and shutting everyone else up. It could be you...!
Like Trizia said, it IS in our 1993 Complete OED.
Tal
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
| Whisky Dave brought forth ...
> > [1] The most attractive thing about women is their variety. There is no
> ideal [2]
> > [2] And that goes for the 0.7 waist/hip ratio thing too IMHO
>
>
> I tend to like my women somewhere between the cooker and the kitchen sink
> ;-)
Yeah, I've heard that washing machines on fast spin can be good too =;-)
/Mel!/
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
| VKC20 brought forth ...
It may well be an ideal, though if so I'm sure it's only believed by a tiny
minority. Certainly the reality is quite different, and rightly so. My opinion
is that anyone, goth or otherwise, who starves themselves for the sake of
fashion is deeply deeply sad. In my tolerant moments I believe that they
should get professional help, in my intolerant moments I say [censored in the
interests of peace and goodwill to all folk].
/Mel!/
VKC20
On 10 Jan 1998, Mel (Steve Mellor Lite) wrote:
> It may well be an ideal, though if so I'm sure it's only believed by a tiny
> minority. Certainly the reality is quite different, and rightly so. My opinion
> is that anyone, goth or otherwise, who starves themselves for the sake of
> fashion is deeply deeply sad. In my tolerant moments I believe that they
> should get professional help, in my intolerant moments I say [censored in the
> interests of peace and goodwill to all folk].
I think the 'professional help' idea is probably the most apt in this
case... certainly there seems to be far more room in the goth scene than
in conventional fashion to be whatever shape you wish. Perhaps it's
something to do with most goths having the brains and self-worth to
realise how pointless it is trying to turn yourself into something you
weren't built to be.
The problem is, though, that teenagers, girls
especially, characteristically lack self-esteem, and for them it's almost
involuntary to compare themselves negatively with the images that bombard
them, and with their own perceivedly thinner friends. The situation here
is not apparently as bad as in countries like Argentina, where appearance
is a huge national obsession and parents start their children on diets
from ridiculously early ages to keep them slim. Of course in Britain we
can attempt to make the images that appear in magazines etc. less extreme
but often at the root of problems like anorexia and bulimia is the
sufferer's own sense of inadequacy and lack of control, rather than a
direct comparison between self and outside images.
Archaea
__________________________________________________________
Comment of the Day:
'Large goths most commonly resemble vampiric marshmallows'
-C.Anderson
Paul Crowley
alex...@deathsdoor.com (Alexander) writes:
> On 9 Jan 1998 19:26:05 GMT, Mel wrote:
> >Yes, but my point is... is everyone making it up or is it an accepted
> >and defined word?
>
> Well, questions like that can be answered easily. It's not defined in
> the Oxford English Dictionary and, as such, isn't part of the
> 'official' English Language.
>
> However, my dictionary is a bit out of date and new words 'enter' the
> English Language all the time. But usually, if it isn't in the OED, it
> isn't a 'real word'. Chambers is a little bit more flexible as well.
Er, no. There is no "official" English language and hopefully there
never will be. Dictionaries (yes, even the OED) are meant to be
descriptive, not prescriptive, and if what they say is at variance
with language as it is really used then it's the dictionary at fault.
Sometimes there's occasion to regret change in language if it makes
meaning harder to express concisely and unambiguously (such as
"disinterested" gaining the new meaning of "uninterested"), but
ultimately it's new usage which leads and dictionaries which follow.
And English has a very rich and free morphology; in particular,
coining new words directly from their Greek or Latin roots (try to
avoid mixing them: "homophobia", "Pentium") has long been a well
accepted part of educated speech, especially when they're relatively
straightforward to understand and the parts are well known and they're
cut from a well-established template. For example, the word for
"pathological fear of the number 12" is "dodecaphobia" even if that's
the first time it's ever seen print, because that's how you form words
for pathological fear.
"Misandry" is the correct word, dictionaries or no.
__
\/ o\ pa...@hedonism.demon.co.uk \ /
/\__/ Paul Crowley -+- DATA IS SACRED /~\
Alexander
On 10 Jan 1998 11:59:08, Paul Crowley wrote:
>> However, my dictionary is a bit out of date and new words 'enter' the
>> English Language all the time. But usually, if it isn't in the OED, it
>> isn't a 'real word'. Chambers is a little bit more flexible as well.
>
>Er, no. There is no "official" English language and hopefully there
>never will be. Dictionaries (yes, even the OED) are meant to be
>descriptive, not prescriptive, and if what they say is at variance
>with language as it is really used then it's the dictionary at fault.
>Sometimes there's occasion to regret change in language if it makes
>meaning harder to express concisely and unambiguously (such as
>"disinterested" gaining the new meaning of "uninterested"), but
>ultimately it's new usage which leads and dictionaries which follow.
I'll have to remember that one the next time I play Scrabble
"I'm right! It is a word! The dictionary is wrong!" ;)
I would argue furthur, but I think I'm going to Slimelight :P
--
~Alexander - Gothic Industrial Metalhead Thing
The trouble with my wife is that she is a whore in the kitchen and a cook in the bed. - Geoffrey Gorer
Talia
Paul Kinsler <kin...@bloch.leeds.ac.uk> writes
>Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard) <m...@spam.is.the.devils.spunk.c
>ix.co.uk> wrote:
>> Actually, yeah, good point. It depends on just how horrible. Being generally
>> obnoxious is common to both sexes, but crime, and violent crime in particular,
>> is mostly a male thing.
>
>have been convicted of violence?
This suddenly reminds me of another thread around here... ;)
(why punish all, when only some are doing it, whatever 'it' happend to
be!)
--
Talia - Self Proclaimed Gothess - http://www.gothweb.co.uk/Talia
Talia
Paul Crowley <pa...@hedonism.demon.co.uk> writes
>Er, no. There is no "official" English language and hopefully there
>never will be. Dictionaries (yes, even the OED) are meant to be
>descriptive, not prescriptive, and if what they say is at variance
>with language as it is really used then it's the dictionary at fault.
Unless you're playing Scrabble. :)
Jennie Kermode
In article <memo.19980109...@mel.compulink.co.uk>
m...@no.pink.slimey.meat.cix.co.uk "Mel (Steve Mellor Lite" writes:
> | Incarnadine brought forth ...
>
> > gyno = female
> > andro = male (hence androgynous)
>
> Is andro the root of android? Do gynoids dream of electric rams?
Yes. Meaning 'man-like'.
Jennie
--
Jennie Kermode jen...@innocent.com
Gothcode 3.0A:- GoAu7$CS3 TGlTgFeNr9 PMoRSg B20/48Bk"3 cBk9
V6s M3p1GooFanPuoCl C6p a23-(14) n6 b54 H163 g7!??76A m0@26
w7A v5S r3E p75765Rd D77* h7AdFeGl sF5PSrWy k7BdSMmDspFNRWT
N0893NEH Hfs5p10 LukGla9
Jennie Kermode
In article <tVVxgdAW...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk>
Nat...@brad-camb.demon.co.uk "Talia" writes:
> Paul Crowley <pa...@hedonism.demon.co.uk> writes
> >Er, no. There is no "official" English language and hopefully there
> >never will be. Dictionaries (yes, even the OED) are meant to be
> >descriptive, not prescriptive, and if what they say is at variance
> >with language as it is really used then it's the dictionary at fault.
>
> Unless you're playing Scrabble. :)
Try playing that with someone who was raised speaking a mixture of
English and Gaelic! :\ ;)
I miss Scrabble. It's the downside of living with dyslexics.
Graham Clark
In article <memo.19980110...@mel.compulink.co.uk>, "Mel (Steve
Mellor Lite)" <m...@shove.your.spam.cix.co.uk> writes
>It may well be an ideal, though if so I'm sure it's only believed by a tiny
>minority. Certainly the reality is quite different, and rightly so. My opinion
>is that anyone, goth or otherwise, who starves themselves for the sake of
>fashion is deeply deeply sad. In my tolerant moments I believe that they
>should get professional help, in my intolerant moments I say [censored in the
>interests of peace and goodwill to all folk].
Deeply deeply troubled. It's a matter of body image. If your
assessment of your weight is highly inaccurate, then you'll take
measures that seem, to others, highly unwise.
--
Graham Clark
Kipper The Heavily Armed Fish
In article <884485...@skinner.fish.demon.co.uk>
jen...@innocent.com "Jennie Kermode" writes:
> I miss Scrabble. It's the downside of living with dyslexics.
Even if I wasn't dyslexic I wouldn't play scrabble with you... you've got
a degree in fucking english... ;)
- Aidan
--
"I'm not stupid, I'm not expendable and I'm *not* going down"
http://www.skinner.demon.co.uk
http://www.gla.ac.uk/Clubs/WebSoc/~9704075s/
http://www.gla.ac.uk/Clubs/WebSoc/~9704075s/agsf/
Chris Anderton
Tri...@irkar.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Well, I'm not sure of when it came into wider use but it is in our copy
> of the OED, printed in 1993.
And it's also in Chambers!
Chris - (the piss artist formerly known as Vlad "the Aler")
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_O_ Eccentric Chris who is spending a year undead for tax purposes!
| eccen...@archi-type.demon.co.uk http://www.archi-type.demon.co.uk
Tal
On Sun, 11 Jan 98 15:44:28 GMT, ai...@skinner.demon.co.ukSPMA (Kipper
The Heavily Armed Fish) wrote:
>In article <884485...@skinner.fish.demon.co.uk>
> jen...@innocent.com "Jennie Kermode" writes:
>
>> I miss Scrabble. It's the downside of living with dyslexics.
>
>Even if I wasn't dyslexic I wouldn't play scrabble with you... you've got
>a degree in fucking english... ;)
>
>- Aidan
And let me tell you, these days they REALLY teach you about fucking
English at Uni...
Tal
scp4
"The Word Impossible does not apear to be in my dictionary, neither are
any words from Herring to Marmalade..." Dirk Gently
scp4
The Biggest problem is that unfortunately the Goth Image and the Goth
lifestyle are light years apart, my close personal relationship with
alcohol, chocolate and earnest indolence have long since dragged my
aging much abused body out of the realms of the skeletal. Still since
whatever I do my body gets abused I choose, comfortable abuse any day.
Hey if I want to feel thin I can always go see Die Laughing (only
joking!).
Seriously though: people who bow to peer pressure to conform are
unhappy with themselves on a far more fundamental level than can be
remedied by changing the way they look. The trouble is other people
don't know how to handle the problem, which exacerbates it no end.
Death Jester
/
@xxxx@==========---
\
antony johnston
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite) <m...@shove.your.spam.cix.co.uk> wrote:
> Yeah, I try to conserve bandwidth. Dunno why as most on here [I
> suspect] have free access.
dunno about *most* [look at all those *.demon addys...]. and those that
don't are certainly grateful...=!>
--
antony johnston
http://www.mostlyblack.demon.co.uk/
PS: the man in the orange shirt has been edited to conserve bandwidth.
antony johnston
<Tri...@irkar.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Actually she died last year sometime, and it was her mother's trial
> that generated the publicity. They found her guilty of abuse and
> neglect but I haven't heard what the sentence is to be.
they're deciding it next week. what amazed me was that the US pro-fat
groups leapt on the case to defend the mother, when she was actually
being accused of neglect and keeping a child in an environment dangerous
to health [*not* for allowing her daughter to become obese].
I dunno. pressure groups, eh? =!>
--
antony johnston
http://www.mostlyblack.demon.co.uk/
PS: the man in the orange shirt is not really here.
Archaea
> Seriously though: people who bow to peer pressure to conform are
> unhappy with themselves on a far more fundamental level than can be
> remedied by changing the way they look. The trouble is other people
> don't know how to handle the problem, which exacerbates it no end.
Peer pressure, as far as I can tell, is however a very powerful force-
essentially you can reduce law and order to the effects of peer pressure,
no?- and it even exists within goth to some extent. I suppose you could
argue that goths just swap one set of conformity pressures for a different
one.
I'd be interested to know whether anyone thinks that a lot of goths seem
to have some kind of underlying insecurity about themselves which gets
wallpapered over with a very distinctive image- it's certainly something
I've been accused of, and have noticed in others (despite the fact that I
*insist* I just like clothes!). It has struck me that it may be a lot to
do with why we end up goths. (Chicken and egg thread, anyone?)
Oh dear *heh* I'm asking people to talk about their insecurities in public?
Tell me about your mother... :)
Archaea
Adrian the Rock
m...@spam.is.the.devils.spunk.cix.co.uk (Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be
back for custard)) writes:
>I didn't really put that well (and don't have time right now to expand much). As
>an example though - this obsession with the fashion world that stick-like seven
>stone six foot women are the pinnacle of what's attractive - /that/ bothers me.
>Partly because I don't find it at all attractive [1], but mostly because of the
>problems it creates in gullible teenagers.
I dislike stereotypes like this too. But if I'm 100% honest with
myself, then, despite not wishing to offend those unfortunate women
who fail despite struggling to put _on_ any significant weight, I must
say that my personal prejudice, as a red-blooded male, is actually
this.
Give me a lusty, buxom wench to make love with any day - far rather
that <g> <g> <g> than having to do it with a skeleton!
I suspect I'm far from being the only one with this opinion.
A late friend of mine used to make the point that, in other ages, it
used to be considered attractive for women to have a bit of flesh on
their bodies. This is apparently reflected in certain genres of
classic paintings (though I've long forgotten the details - perhaps
some of you can comment on this).
So hang out gals, whatever your size - there's room on this planet for
all of us.
^''^
Adrian
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian the Rock <adr...@roscalen.demon.co.uk>
Horsham, West Sussex, England http://www.roscalen.demon.co.uk/
Adrian the Rock
Jodi Quinn <jodi....@man.NOSPAM.ac.uk> writes:
>It was just in this context I was referring to the fact that society
>seems to need to villify single mothers rather than fathers who don't
>support their children. I know they had a go at this with the CSA but
>somehow irresponsible fathers ended up being portrayed as the victims
>and women got it again (well the children are the real victims but
>that's not really the point here).
The trouble with all the single mothers vs absent fathers discussions
is they ignore the fact that children can be conceived in a million
and one different circumstances. Consider for example just two
possibilities:
1 man date-rapes woman at knifepoint and she does nothing as she
has no supporting evidence, gets pregnant and has baby, and
2 woman wanting child cyncially seduces man, gets engaged, lets
him get her pregnant, then leaves to live on her own.
In (1) then the man is clearly a very nasty animal who should be
hammered for every penny she can get, whereas in (2) the woman
probably deserves nothing at all.
>Generally speaking the men that I'm down on are the same macho idiots
>Fleetie was on about.
Actually, I've always hated macho culture myself, largely because I
just wasn't built as that kind of guy. But it's a pity there seem to
be so many women in the world that find themselves attracted to such
macho guys...
IMO it's just our biological programming coming to the fore again.
This is intended as a sad acknowledgement of reality, not in any hate,
but sorry, sisters: in my experience, too many of you _say_ you like
gentle loving sensitive men but then bestow your sexual favours on the
loud rabble because of course it's those behaviour patterns that turn
you on.
We sensitive people must remember always to look out for one another.
Share and enjoy
Jennie Kermode
In article <34ba0b01...@news.demon.co.uk>
T...@irkar.demon.co.uk "Tal" writes:
Well given that I did my degree here in Glasgow, I also got to
learn about fucking Scots. :) ;)
Ronald Baker
[Lays down on the couch]
I wonder about that too. I was always lonely as a kid so I've been
accused of having a "sour grapes" approach to society, whuch is probably
true-- it's probably not out of strength but weakness that I disown
society. It is a lot easier not to live by their criticisms, not to have
to care. I was always paranoid when I was a kid that people were staring
at me, so I guess I started dressing weird at a very early age just so I
could say "oh, well at least I know why they're staring at me." Bizarre.
Did anyone else do that?
Luv & Squdges,
V
Eleanor, the Megaflow Junkie
Mel (smoke me a banana I'll be back for custard) wrote in message ...
>
><not the nine o'clock news>
>
>I'm afraid that there is only one answer. Cut the goolies off.
>
></not the nine o'clock news>
>
>But seriously. The big problem would be in the policing of it all. I
>don't know about these electronic tagging schemes, maybe they'd be the
>answer. Perhaps a combo tag/10KV generator.
Reminds me of a story I once read on the web - only I think the author got off
on the idea of said device being attached to certain items of personal equipment
that are not normally too keen on high-voltage electrical stimulation...
Might make for an interesting deterant though with that particular twist *grin*
- Eleanor, THE MeGafLow JUnkiE
transgender: a tired label gender punk: a way of life >8^)
--
gothcode 3.1A: GoPS6CS7$Mu2 TZFeNr8 PPeSa B9/21BK"3z1 cBk(Dbr)p8 V7s
M3p3wD ZGoMePuFan C8o a27- n6 b54 H175 g6!0689A mEa2@Z6 w6LAT v1ER
r7E p71555EdFp D46 h7(TFeCyAn) sM9Mn SrNN k6Bm N0988JN HsS*1 LukKent4
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
Eleanor, the Megaflow Junkie ...
> >But seriously. The big problem would be in the policing of it all. I
> >don't know about these electronic tagging schemes, maybe they'd be the
> >answer. Perhaps a combo tag/10KV generator.
>
> Reminds me of a story I once read on the web - only I think the author got off
> on the idea of said device being attached to certain items of personal equipment
> that are not normally too keen on high-voltage electrical stimulation...
> Might make for an interesting deterant though with that particular twist *grin*
Don't knock it until you've tried it. =|-o
/Mel!/
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
Archaea ...
> I'd be interested to know whether anyone thinks that a lot of goths seem
> to have some kind of underlying insecurity about themselves which gets
> wallpapered over with a very distinctive image- it's certainly something
> I've been accused of, and have noticed in others (despite the fact that I
> *insist* I just like clothes!). It has struck me that it may be a lot to
> do with why we end up goths. (Chicken and egg thread, anyone?)
It's twue! It's twue! Less so nowadays than a decade ago I think, but still
it's true. Having said that though I don't really know many non-wierdo's
well enough to compare. Possibly they're just as bad as the rest of us.
/Mel!/
Incarnadine
Tis indeed Reubens who is famed for his paintings depicting curvy ladies.
The reason that this was considered attractive at the time,IIRC , was that
the larger ladies were obviously from a more wealthy background, as opposed
to skinnier girls whose appearance indicated that they were impoverished
and therefore not to be considered attractive. All boils down to money
again......
Another supporter of the curvy lass was Botticelli.....
--Lyssa
Corporate Goth Bitch
================
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2712
The Girl who wanted to be God <god...@twisted.org.uk> wrote in article
<34c26f8e...@news.ftech.net>...
> Adrian the Rock wrote:
>
> > This is apparently reflected in certain genres of
> >classic paintings
>
> Reubens?
>
> Marge xxx
> --
> "If you were an angel - I would cut off your wings
> To keep you with me - I would do anything..."
> Untouchable - Rialto
>
Incarnadine
Ronald Baker <rjb...@cyberia.com> muttered:
> at me, so I guess I started dressing weird at a very early age just so I
> could say "oh, well at least I know why they're staring at me." Bizarre.
> Did anyone else do that?
Yes.
Whisky Dave
Jennie Kermode <jen...@innocent.com> wrote in article
<884474...@skinner.fish.demon.co.uk>...
> In article <memo.19980109...@mel.compulink.co.uk>
> m...@no.pink.slimey.meat.cix.co.uk "Mel (Steve Mellor Lite"
writes:
>
> > | Incarnadine brought forth ...
> >
> > > gyno = female
> > > andro = male (hence androgynous)
> >
> > Is andro the root of android? Do gynoids dream of electric rams?
>
And what about battery sheep?.
Mark Rae
"Whisky Dave" <d.wil...@qmw.NOBOTTLES.ac.uk> writes:
>Jennie Kermode <jen...@innocent.com> wrote in article
>>
>And what about battery sheep?.
They probably do, until they run out[1]. Or were you talking about
rechargable battery sheep?
[1] If you press firmly at both ends of a battery sheep do you get a
fluorescent line showing how much charge they have left?
Then again, maybe its only battery rams that have charge :)
-Mark
--
Mark Rae T 0131 650-3265
Department of Physiology F 0131 650-6527
Edinburgh University E Mark...@ed.ac.uk
scp4
But I'm not a Goth, honest, no really, errrrmmmmm
Mea Culpa
Charlie
Andrew Lucas
Kipper The Heavily Armed Fish wrote:
>
> In article <884485...@skinner.fish.demon.co.uk>
> jen...@innocent.com "Jennie Kermode" writes:
>
> > I miss Scrabble. It's the downside of living with dyslexics.
>
> a degree in fucking english... ;)
>
> - Aidan
That's about *all* you get from a degree in fucking English (or the
celibate variety for that matter).
A
Reply-to: Nahe...@hotmail.com
Deeply unemployed Oxford penguingothtart
Keir Finlow-Bates
Paul Crowley <pa...@hedonism.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> Er, no. There is no "official" English language and hopefully there
> never will be.
>
>
> "Misandry" is the correct word, dictionaries or no.
Sorry Paul. I couldn't resist snipping your posting to bring those two
sentences together.
Keir
--
la la la la la la la la!
http://www.whoosh.demon.co.uk/
Tom Sulston
On 12 Jan 1998, Incarnadine wrote:
>>Another supporter of the curvy lass was Botticelli.....
And at this point, Tom asks himself if he can, in fact, be bothered to
make the obvious pun about jelly botties. Rather rhetorically,
unfortuantly. ;-)
+---Tom Sulston --------------------------------+
| Gatekeeper of Hallucenogenic Visions |
| When it works.... |
+-----------------------------------------------+
Bob Rosenberg
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite) (m...@shove.your.spam.cix.co.uk) wrote:
>It may well be an ideal, though if so I'm sure it's only believed by a tiny
>minority. Certainly the reality is quite different, and rightly so. My opinion
>is that anyone, goth or otherwise, who starves themselves for the sake of
>fashion is deeply deeply sad. In my tolerant moments I believe that they
>should get professional help
What about people who starves themselves for the sake of a doctorate?
Bob (busy finishing off those last two chapters which were due last week)
--
Me: http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/b.rosenberg/bob.html
Bob Facts: Bob is quite sure he ate at *some* point yesterday
Jennie Kermode
In article <34b92cf9...@news.demon.co.uk>
adr...@roscalen.demon.co.uk "Adrian the Rock" writes:
> just wasn't built as that kind of guy. But it's a pity there seem to
> be so many women in the world that find themselves attracted to such
> macho guys...
I hate all that macho bullshit; whichever gender it comes from
(because in terms of posturing, it's certainly popular with both). I never
went for the big muscular type either - can't see the attraction - but some
people find that attractive, which is cool, because if I was one of those
guys I wouldn't want to be left feeling ugly due to something I couldn't
change.
Personally, I'm eight stone with visible ribs, despite my best
efforts to attain a more healthy weight. People's personal preferences are
fair enough, but I do resent the fact that my shape has become politicised
to the point where I find people everywhere saying it's ugly as a result of
the fashionable PC backlash. Doesn't exactly make me feel great.
I find women of various different sizes attractive; it depends on
what suits that individual. <shrug>
> but sorry, sisters: in my experience, too many of you _say_ you like
> gentle loving sensitive men but then bestow your sexual favours on the
> loud rabble because of course it's those behaviour patterns that turn
> you on.
I hate gentle loving sensitive men, or at any rate I hate the kind
of men who would be slimey enough to call themselves that. It's so
ridiculously cliched and smarmy. :(P I wouldn't say I go for 'loud rabble',
because I do prefer intelligence, but I'd rather be involved with an honest
bastard whom I can relate to on equal terms than another sycophantic
screwed-up sweet talking kid.
Jennie
(a little bitter lately, can you tell?)
Kipper The Heavily Armed Fish
In article <34b927b4...@news.demon.co.uk>
adr...@roscalen.demon.co.uk "Adrian the Rock" writes:
> I dislike stereotypes like this too. But if I'm 100% honest with
> myself, then, despite not wishing to offend those unfortunate women
> who fail despite struggling to put _on_ any significant weight, I must
Tell me about it...
> Give me a lusty, buxom wench to make love with any day - far rather
> that <g> <g> <g> than having to do it with a skeleton!
Skeletons can be fun, but so long as they can wield a whip[1]...
> So hang out gals, whatever your size - there's room on this planet for
> all of us.
"fat bottomed girls, they'll be riding today..."
- Aidan
[1] "I have desires for Darrell , but I'll settle with a pulse really"
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
Bob Rosenberg ...
> Mel (Steve Mellor Lite) (m...@shove.your.spam.cix.co.uk) wrote:
> >It may well be an ideal, though if so I'm sure it's only believed by a tiny
> >minority. Certainly the reality is quite different, and rightly so. My opinion
> >is that anyone, goth or otherwise, who starves themselves for the sake of
> >fashion is deeply deeply sad. In my tolerant moments I believe that they
> >should get professional help
>
> What about people who starves themselves for the sake of a doctorate?
As I said, "In my tolerant moments I believe that they should get professional
help".
=;-)
(Thought you'd been quiet. In fact upg as a whole has been pretty quiet. Or maybe
I've just been wielding the killfile a little to heavily).
/Mel!/
John Sullivan
The Girl who wanted to be God <god...@twisted.org.uk> wrote:
>Adrian the Rock wrote:
>> This is apparently reflected in certain genres of
>>classic paintings
>
>Reubens?
As in the famous lyric "But she looks good in Reubens"?
John
--
i built it up now i take it apart climbed up real high now fall down real far
no need for me to stay the last thing left i just threw it away
i put my faith in god and my trust in you
now there's nothing more fucked up i could do
<p><a href="file:///dev/null">:-p</a>
HatchetMan
Previously a dark and sinister entity known as Kipper The Heavily Armed
Fish <ai...@skinner.demon.co.ukSPMA>, wrote:
>- Aidan
>
>[1] "I have desires for Darrell , but I'll settle with a pulse really"
That wasn't the exact quote, if memory serves...
HatchetMan >;)
--
**************************************************************************
*"The graveyard pallor was mandatory, and Gothick hair was by definition *
*black. Bobby knew that the few who couldn't warp their bodies to fit the*
*subcultural template were best avoided; a short Gothick was trouble, a *
*fat Gothick homicidal." Count Zero - William Gibson *
**************************************************************************
Paul Kinsler
Try vodka instead.
--
#Paul.
------------------------------+soluble fish+------------------------------
Inst Microwaves & Photonics, University of Leeds, UK. (ph) +44 113 2332089
"You people, you do not see the grandeur in the wind and stone and stars,
in the blood and fire and iron - but paint only the flowers."
Esme
In a message of 10 Jan 98 alex...@deathsdoor.com wrote to All:
adc> I can't believe I actually tried to read (and memorise) the dictionary
adc> when I was younger. I think I only got as far as about 'c' as well.
adc> --
adc> ~Alexander - Gothic Industrial Metalhead Thing
Ermm.. (blush...) it might only have been a little one, but I /was/ that
child that "swallowed a dictionary" when she was still in single-figures of
age. Might not have understood exactly what some of the words /meant/, mind
you, but I could spell the wee buggers. Now I understand more words, but my
spelling has, sadly, rather deteriorated...
/\./\ Ciao for now!
\/ O O \/ Take care,
-( T )- Esme
/\ \_/ /\
|...| (Don't forget to remove the .NOSPAM before replying!)
--
|Fidonet: Esme 2:2500/632.7
|Internet: Es...@p7.f632.n2500.z2.overflow.com
|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his/her own.
Esme
In a message of 10 Jan 98 alex...@deathsdoor.com wrote to All:
("Misandry"...)
>> Yes, but my point is... is everyone making it up or is it an accepted and
>> defined word?
So far as I'm aware, it's a perfectly good word, however...
adc> Well, questions like that can be answered easily. It's not defined in
adc> the Oxford English Dictionary and, as such, isn't part of the
adc> 'official' English Language.
Hmmnn.. to my astonishment, the Collins Concise lists misogyny, but not
misandry! Although that could just be a reflection of which was thought to
be most prevalent and to cause the most distress (after all, with all those
misogynists keeping us down, any misandrist women would just be ignored,
wouldn't they?! (NB: tongue firmly in cheek!))
adc> However, my dictionary is a bit out of date and new words 'enter' the
adc> English Language all the time. But usually, if it isn't in the OED, it
adc> isn't a 'real word'. Chambers is a little bit more flexible as well.
On this one, I'm not so sure. If the OED doesn't have misandry, then I'd
venture the thought that it is, for once, in error (or in lack, at least!).
I've encountered the term in all sorts of places over the years, including
stuff written by people far more literary than I.
adc> I'm wondering who will be the first person to go into a book shop and
adc> check the most recent version of the OED, thus killing this thread off
adc> and shutting everyone else up. It could be you...!
Sorreeee! <g>
antony johnston
HatchetMan <Hatch...@outrider.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >[1] "I have desires for Darrell , but I'll settle with a pulse really"
>
> That wasn't the exact quote, if memory serves...
I was just thinking that...
"hey, you! you owe me twenty quid!"
"oh, sorry, pulse. here you go."
"right, that's us settled, then."
--
antony johnston
http://www.mostlyblack.demon.co.uk/
PS: the man in the orange shirt is not really here.
antony johnston
Archaea <Arc...@selin.com> wrote:
> I'd be interested to know whether anyone thinks that a lot of goths seem
> to have some kind of underlying insecurity about themselves which gets
> wallpapered over with a very distinctive image
<snip>
hmmm. dangerous generalisation, that. I'd like to see someone
succssfully accuse, say, sexbat of being insecure...
Eleanor, the Megaflow Junkie
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite) wrote in message ...
> Eleanor, the Megaflow Junkie ...
>
off
>> on the idea of said device being attached to certain items of personal
>> equipment that are not normally too keen on high-voltage electrical
>> stimulation... Might make for an interesting deterant though with that
>> particular twist *grin*
>
>Don't knock it until you've tried it. =|-o
hmmm... I think I'd rather retain control of my bladder if it's all the same >:)
Count Von Sexbat
In article <1998011300...@mostlyblack.demon.co.uk>
ant...@mostlyblack.demon.co.uk "antony johnston" writes:
>hmmm. dangerous generalisation, that. I'd like to see someone
>succssfully accuse, say, sexbat of being insecure...
I bloody wouldn't! ->B)
--
Whisky Dave
Bob Rosenberg <b...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote in article
<69dk9p$kjp$1...@beta.qmw.ac.uk>...
> Mel (Steve Mellor Lite) (m...@shove.your.spam.cix.co.uk) wrote:
> >It may well be an ideal, though if so I'm sure it's only believed by a
tiny
> >minority. Certainly the reality is quite different, and rightly so. My
opinion
> >is that anyone, goth or otherwise, who starves themselves for the sake
of
> >fashion is deeply deeply sad. In my tolerant moments I believe that they
> >should get professional help
>
> What about people who starves themselves for the sake of a doctorate?
They need a good slap.
>
> Bob (busy finishing off those last two chapters which were due last week)
Bob Facts part II: Bob can also emulate a typical student ;-)
Mel (Steve Mellor Lite)
Count Von Sexbat ...
> >hmmm. dangerous generalisation, that. I'd like to see someone
> >succssfully accuse, say, sexbat of being insecure...
>
> I bloody wouldn't! ->B)
Dunno, ever had any bits drop off while moshing?
/Mel!/
Paul Crowley
(posted and mailed)
Keir Finlow-Bates <ke...@harlequin.co.uk> writes:
> Paul Crowley <pa...@hedonism.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > Er, no. There is no "official" English language and hopefully there
> > never will be.
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > "Misandry" is the correct word, dictionaries or no.
>
> Sorry Paul. I couldn't resist snipping your posting to bring those two
> sentences together.
You wanna watch it, you do. You may have thought I was safe in
Edinburgh but I'm currently less than 100 yds from you and I'm
carrying a big stick. It's a walking stick; I did my knee in when I
fell over slamdancing to Nellie the Elephant at Dust. If you're not
careful, I might come and find you and explain why what I wrote makes
sense...
Mind you, you're probably saved by the fact that I don't know what you
look like. I'm sure as soon as I find out I'm going to say "oh,
*you're* keirf!"
__
\/ o\ pa...@harlequin.co.uk \ /
/\__/ Paul Crowley -+- DATA IS SACRED /~\
Count Von Sexbat
In article <memo.19980113...@mel.compulink.co.uk>
m...@no.pink.slimey.meat.cix.co.uk "Mel (Steve Mellor Lite" writes:
>Dunno, ever had any bits drop off while moshing?
Certainly not!
--
Paul Kinsler
Count Von Sexbat <Sex...@batt.7054demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <1998011300...@mostlyblack.demon.co.uk>
> ant...@mostlyblack.demon.co.uk "antony johnston" writes:
> >succssfully accuse, say, sexbat of being insecure...
> I bloody wouldn't! ->B)
A bit touchy about it, are we?
Count Von Sexbat
In article <69ftql$bai$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>
kin...@bloch.leeds.ac.uk "Paul Kinsler" writes:
>> >hmmm. dangerous generalisation, that. I'd like to see someone
>> >succssfully accuse, say, sexbat of being insecure...
>
>> I bloody wouldn't! ->B)
>
>A bit touchy about it, are we?
Why? What have you been told?!
/\../\
--
Bob Rosenberg
Whisky Dave (d.wil...@qmw.NOBOTTLES.ac.uk) wrote:
>Bob Rosenberg <b...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Mel (Steve Mellor Lite) (m...@shove.your.spam.cix.co.uk) wrote:
>> >is that anyone, goth or otherwise, who starves themselves for the sake of
>> >fashion is deeply deeply sad. In my tolerant moments I believe that they
>> >should get professional help
>> What about people who starves themselves for the sake of a doctorate?
>They need a good slap.
I do in fact need a good slap. If you put mustard and a bit of lettuce
on it as well, I'd eat it too.
>> Bob (busy finishing off those last two chapters which were due last week)
>Bob Facts part II: Bob can also emulate a typical student ;-)
After being forces to spend 2 hours in a lab with screaming undergrads
playing games over the net, Bob can also come damed close to
throttling the little bastards as well.
Bob
--
Me: http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/b.rosenberg/bob.html
86\% finished.
Paul Kinsler
Alexander
On Tue, 13 Jan 98 17:51:30 GMT, Count Von Sexbat wrote:
>>> >hmmm. dangerous generalisation, that. I'd like to see someone
>>> >succssfully accuse, say, sexbat of being insecure...
>>
>>> I bloody wouldn't! ->B)
>>
>>A bit touchy about it, are we?
>
>Why? What have you been told?!
Ever had any bits drop off while moshing?
...
Are you sure?
--
~Alexander - Gothic Industrial Metalhead Thing
...the myth of socialism is far stronger than the reality of capitalism. That is because capitalism is not really an ism at all. It is what people do if you leave them alone. - Arnold Beichmen, Hoover Institute Fellow
antony johnston
Martin Read <mp...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> Mind you, IMO the song loses a lot of its charge once you discover that
> Darrell is a girl too...
<fx: illusions shattered> =!O
Graham Clark
In article <34b92cf9...@news.demon.co.uk>, Adrian the Rock
<adr...@roscalen.demon.co.uk> writes
>The trouble with all the single mothers vs absent fathers discussions
>is they ignore the fact that children can be conceived in a million
>and one different circumstances. Consider for example just two
>possibilities:
>
>1 man date-rapes woman at knifepoint and she does nothing as she
> has no supporting evidence, gets pregnant and has baby, and
I'm not a fan of the phrase "date rape" - either it is or it
isn't, and I don't see the point of adding a qualifier - but if it's at
knifepoint then there's no room for debate. "By force or the threat of
force".
>2 woman wanting child cyncially seduces man, gets engaged, lets
> him get her pregnant, then leaves to live on her own.
>
>In (1) then the man is clearly a very nasty animal who should be
>hammered for every penny she can get, whereas in (2) the woman
>probably deserves nothing at all.
Kid, OTOH, wasn't consulted in either case. If there were a way
of making sure the child was supported properly without her benefitting
materially at all, then I'd be in favour of it. I don't see one,
though.
>IMO it's just our biological programming coming to the fore again.
>This is intended as a sad acknowledgement of reality, not in any hate,
>but sorry, sisters: in my experience, too many of you _say_ you like
>gentle loving sensitive men but then bestow your sexual favours on the
>loud rabble because of course it's those behaviour patterns that turn
>you on.
Seconded. Mind you, I'm just as bad.
--
Graham Clark
Graham Clark
In article <884533...@skinner.demon.co.uk>, Kipper The Heavily Armed
Fish <ai...@skinner.demon.co.ukSPMA> writes
>In article <884485...@skinner.fish.demon.co.uk>
> jen...@innocent.com "Jennie Kermode" writes:
>
>> I miss Scrabble. It's the downside of living with dyslexics.
>
>Even if I wasn't dyslexic I wouldn't play scrabble with you... you've got
>a degree in fucking english... ;)
Meep! Where do they do a course in that?
--
Graham Clark
Count Von Sexbat
In article <69ggou$r6t$2...@news.ox.ac.uk>
kin...@bloch.leeds.ac.uk "Paul Kinsler" writes:
>I can't just make things up then?
In that case, could I interest you in some creativity training software - a
snip at 1250 quid - and fully 25% goes towards buying a big black car for
a needy aging North London gothic-punk...
/\../\
--
antony johnston
Count Von Sexbat <Sex...@batt.7054demon.co.uk> wrote:
> and fully 25% goes towards buying a big black car for
> a needy aging North London gothic-punk...
^^^^^
oh, for a minute there I thought you meant yourself =!>
Eleanor, the Megaflow Junkie
Count Von Sexbat wrote in message <884767...@batt.demon.co.uk>...
>In article <69ggou$r6t$2...@news.ox.ac.uk>
> kin...@bloch.leeds.ac.uk "Paul Kinsler" writes:
>
>>I can't just make things up then?
>
>In that case, could I interest you in some creativity training software - a
>a needy aging North London gothic-punk...
So you keep the other 75% then ? After all, you're only 19 dear so the car
*can't* be for you =;)
HatchetMan
Previously a dark and sinister entity known as antony johnston
>> a needy aging North London gothic-punk...
>
>oh, for a minute there I thought you meant yourself =!>
He did, although more punctuation would've probably helped.
"A.g.-ing" - Someone who reads alt.gothic.
HTH...
Count Von Sexbat
In article <69jqre$nc1$6...@news.enterprise.net>
megaflo...@enterprise.net "Eleanor, the Megaflow Junkie" writes:
>So you keep the other 75% then ? After all, you're only 19 dear so the car
>*can't* be for you =;)
I *age* - it's just at a different rate from everyone else...
The other 75% goes to my money launderers, technical support staff[1], oh
and to the development team.
/\../\
[1] Ron the Hammer and 'Deptford' John, technically they have left people
needing a staff for support...
--
Gothpat
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:54:39 +0000, ant...@mostlyblack.demon.co.uk
(antony johnston) had this to say:
>Count Von Sexbat <Sex...@batt.7054demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> and fully 25% goes towards buying a big black car for
>> a needy aging North London gothic-punk...
> ^^^^^
>oh, for a minute there I thought you meant yourself =!>
Maybe he meant me...
I'm a needy aging North London goth...(1)
GothPat
(1) It has to be an automatic too ;)
Erin Nelson
out of curiosity, doe anyone on here know of any serial killers that
were not white males?
erin
---
enel...@richmond.edu * http://www.obscure.org/~nimue * ni...@obscure.org
- too old to be clean, far too young to be broken -
Erin Nelson
> In article <memo.19980109...@mel.compulink.co.uk>
> m...@no.pink.slimey.meat.cix.co.uk "Mel (Steve Mellor Lite" writes:
> > Is andro the root of android? Do gynoids dream of electric rams?
yes
and their pupils dilate terribly when they do so
erin ooooooooer
Erin Nelson
>
> > >But seriously. The big problem would be in the policing of it all. I
> > >don't know about these electronic tagging schemes, maybe they'd be the
> > >answer. Perhaps a combo tag/10KV generator.
my stepmother once had a fabulous idea about tagging males according to
size of, erm, things whos size might not be immediately ascertained
the tags would prolly go best in one or both earlobes (like an earing) and
colour-coded
so that women who have particular preferences regarding size could tell
instantly without having to go through all the foreplay bother
'twould also make it easier for beginners to start off with something a
bit smaller and easier to, er, handle
erin