Leaving the RAF
james hardy
Having served for 8 years as a ground radio tech and having no hope of
promotion I've decide to leave.
The RAF better wake up soon or it may find it's self short of experienced
and genuine techies because the way it treats them.
Roll on October
wes
way techies, suppliers, mechanics etc have been treated over the years has
been nothing but terrible. After all, the RAF is only a glorified Flying
Club which is supported by the tax payers.
There is always a mention of getting rid of the 'us and them' attitude. This
will never happen until, as you say, they wake up and smell the coffee.
Don't get me wrong, in the time that I had served, I did meet a few people
of the higher echelon which actually seemed to have a sense of decency. But
only a handful.
regards
wes
If the RAF were to be run as business, it would have gone into receivership
a long time ago.
james hardy wrote in message <7acja9$isn$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Philip J West
>Funny how it's only the Ground Crew that seem to realise this point. The
>way techies, suppliers, mechanics etc have been treated over the years has
>been nothing but terrible. After all, the RAF is only a glorified Flying
>Club which is supported by the tax payers.
>
>There is always a mention of getting rid of the 'us and them' attitude.
This
>will never happen until, as you say, they wake up and smell the coffee.
>
>Don't get me wrong, in the time that I had served, I did meet a few people
>of the higher echelon which actually seemed to have a sense of decency. But
>only a handful.
>
>regards
>
>wes
>
>If the RAF were to be run as business, it would have gone into receivership
>a long time ago.
>
>
indians leave before the chiefs get pensioned off and you end up with the
reverse situation - too many indians and no chiefs and all the parafin
parrots stay in their nest!
--
Philip J West (ex RN)
http://www.westfamily.demon.co.uk
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
st...@smart34.freeserve.co.uk
<ja...@jhardy.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm due to leave the RAF soon and can't wait.
>
>Having served for 8 years as a ground radio tech and having no hope of
>promotion I've decide to leave.
>
>The RAF better wake up soon or it may find it's self short of experienced
>and genuine techies because the way it treats them.
>
>Roll on October
>
>
Christ James I really sympathise with you mate. I have done 19 years
and have 3 to go. "Good for you" I hear you say. Not really. I wish
to fuck I did what you are doing. Instead I listened to all those
fucks going on about a job for life etc etc. Bollocks. I have been a
Cpl (Supply) for nearly 13 years now, I have never done anything
wrong, never been charged. Spent many a month behind the barbed wire
in NI including Xmas and New Year a few times. Landed in San Carlos
in 1982 after days of getting my arse bombed. Some turbulant times
there I can tell you ! I spent a total of 6 months away on that
particular deployment and all for what ?
So these wankers can kiss me goodbye at 40 years of age ! Heres your
medals son and Good Luck !!
I wouldn't mind but I applied for redundancy 3 times as I could see
what was coming. Would they let me go ? Would they ****. I ask you
3 times I was on for 50k pay off and 3 times, after a 4-5 month wait,
they said no. The reason for the refusal was because I have been a
good lad and have had great assessments - you know, they had to retain
a certain calibre of individual and all that bull. Funny how they
still aint promoted me after some 4 years after my first redundancy
application. Shame that, I now know if I had had 6-7-6 for 3-4 years
I would have had 50k and been out at 33/34 years of age. Instead
they are keeping me in to screw me for all they can. And before
anyone says "how about trying a bit harder" forget it. Ive had it.
And now, after 19 years loyal service, I am only treating it as a job,
9 to 5 and nothing else. Ive had the secondary duties, the station
sports, the charity work and the dammed yes sir no sir [thinking of my
annual assessment sir-shit]. Quite simply the promotion system is all
fucked up and good guys are walking because of poor administration.
I have watched some really good good lads leave after 12 years. SAC's
who would give there left arm for promotion because they lived and
breathed the RAF. I could understand the RAF letting them go if there
were not so many SAC's of 8-9 years (or less) seniority getting
promotion. I mean what price experience. What about reward !!!!!!
I could go on all day about I feel so strong about it. My whole point
in replying was to try to to tell James he is making the right choice.
Get out there and get yourself established while you can mate.
My Brother-in-Law joined ICI as a labourer 10 years ago. I was pretty
smug. Nine years in the RAF and all was rosey in the garden. Now I
am 3 years from the boot. My Brother-in-Law ? Well he is now on 26k
per year as a white coat and climbing. Never spent a day roughing it
neither the snotty shit ! LOL.
Laugh !.................... I could fucking weep !
DO IT MATE !!
SM
N.Elk...@lboro.ac.uk
Life out here ain't rosy either.
I wish you all the luck in the world, but as many don't make it out here as
do.
When I was in the army, as a Warrant Officer with a varied and interesting
job,( as it happens RE and technical..... OK OK the two don't normally go
together <VBG>) I used to think that the military ways and systems were
outdated and outmoded.
Then I came into civvy street.
No bulls--t, I have yet to meet a system in the public services that comes
anywhere near the one I worked within in the army.
Not just the RAF wants to wake up, but the whole of institutionalised
higher management.
--
Folding Norman
james hardy <ja...@jhardy.swinternet.co.uk> wrote in article
<7acja9$isn$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Tex Bennett
<ja...@jhardy.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm due to leave the RAF soon and can't wait.
>
>Having served for 8 years as a ground radio tech and having no hope of
>promotion I've decide to leave.
>
>The RAF better wake up soon or it may find it's self short of experienced
>and genuine techies because the way it treats them.
>
>Roll on October
>
Best of luck James.
I left after 13 years as an Cpl Avionic Techie. I too got fed up of
the carrot of non existant promotion with the stick of more work with
less people(The aircraft tech trades were really screwed up by several
events - over recruitment in the eighties, stupid realignment of
trades/ranks, contractorisation etc).
I asked my Squadron Warrant Officer what I should do as I was in my
late 20's and wanted to get on. He gave me the best advice - keep
doing your day job, get some further education at the Airforce's
expense, take as many courses/expeds/sports as you can and test your
employability.
Brilliant piece of advice - I was also extremely lucky to be in a job
at that time where I could take full advantage. So I did - got myself
an HNC, dropped my CV to BAe and BT had the interviews and got two
very good job offers.
I took the BT offer and left the Mob 4 years ago.
It wasn't easy at first - a few wobbles, but you just have to muddle
through as best you can. You're lucky as your RAF trade has a lot of
transferable skills to Civvy Street.
My advice to anyone coming to the end of their career is don't wait
until the resettlement process - it's too late by then.
Best of luck
Brett Palfrey
Tex Bennett wrote
>>The RAF better wake up soon or it may find it's self short of experienced
>>and genuine techies because the way it treats them.
The RAF treated trade group 9 in exactly the same way Tex. My husband and I
were both AATC. I left with a boot up my jacks because I was pregnant -No I
didnt get any payoff either. Hubbie left after 12 years because of -
amongst other things - being "overlooked" for promotion. A few weeks before
he was due to go, the powers that be were bending over backwards to prevent
it. They offered him his tapes within 12 months if he stayed. Not good
enough, He says, I want it in writing. So they gave it him in writing. 12
months is too long he says. Your tapes before Xmas then they say - this is
in June. Sign me on for 25 he says. We'll think about it they said.
Hubbie says thanks but no thanks and left for civvie street. Cheif Clerk
couldn't believe he was time expired as he'd had so many PVRs in our trade
at that time. Cheif Clerk, Flight Commander and Squadron Leader all asked
him to stay - even tried to get ME to persuade him!! No Chance. Leaving was
the best decision all round. Civvie street is no bed of roses but at least
you are treated as an adult and your life decisions are your own to take.
All the best for the future Tex.
Tofty
Philip J West
Tex Bennett wrote in message <36cb171...@news.btinternet.com>...
[Snip]
>
>My advice to anyone coming to the end of their career is don't wait
>until the resettlement process - it's too late by then.
>
Here, bloody, here! 15 years,VG service, SUPR for last 7 and I ended up
driving a bloody truck!! Being in the secretarial division in the RN I was
told my skills and experience would be snapped up Unfortunately civvie
street don't seem to recognise military experience. I would probably been
alright if I were a leggy blond and wore a short skirt!! I draw the line a
short skirts :-/
--
Philip J West
wes
out. Do your best and you will be rewarded. What a load of bol***ks. It
isn't what you know, but whom you know. In my old trade we had loads CPLs
with all 8s and a spec rec just hovering around trying to fill the dead
man's shoes.
People that have asked me wether to join the RAF or not have been advised
against in doing such. They are better of in civy street where they know how
they will be treated. In the RAF there would seem to be a hidden agenda,
that if you do not fit in, you will not get any where. I've also found, that
people that involve themselves in high profile secondary duties in order to
get recognition, do it to the costs of their fellow colleagues. Yet another
case of 'I'm alright Jack'.
regards
Wes
Tex Bennett
<newsm...@westfamily.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Tex Bennett wrote in message <36cb171...@news.btinternet.com>...
>
>[Snip]
>>
>>My advice to anyone coming to the end of their career is don't wait
>>until the resettlement process - it's too late by then.
>>
>
>
>Here, bloody, here! 15 years,VG service, SUPR for last 7 and I ended up
>driving a bloody truck!! Being in the secretarial division in the RN I was
>told my skills and experience would be snapped up Unfortunately civvie
>street don't seem to recognise military experience. I would probably been
>alright if I were a leggy blond and wore a short skirt!! I draw the line a
>short skirts :-/
LOL!
You raise a very good point Phillip. IME, the military provides you
with a good set of life skills (Sense of Humour being the most
important), some trades also have a direct civvy equivalent. But many
don't. So it's important to use as much of your education allowance
and even pay for some of it yourself. Get every bit of paper and qual
you can. I'd strongly recommend the Open University for those that
want Higher Education. An OU degree tells an employer a lot about your
commitment and motivation. By the time you are captured by the
resettlement process it really is too late (I'm not knocking the
resettlement process by the way)
Terry Parrott
American company, have a nice house, a company car and my MR2 and a wonderful
boyfriend.
I had some very good times in the RAF, but have had many better times since.
Terry
News
back into the real world....
I did 15 years as a GEN TECH GSE and ended up totally disillusioned with the
"job". The lack of promotion and nil job prospects does little to motivate
you after a while.
But the thing that really gripped me was actually having to be assessed for
promotion by people who if it had not been for time promotion could never
have been promoted in today's RAF. There are a lot of bad SNCO's out there,
and to be fair some good ones. The whole system needs to be seriously looked
at and overhauled, it is leading to all the good guys leaving because of
this and many more bad management practices.
Use the forces and get from them what you want.......
Then get into civvy street and use the skills given to you by the forces,
because they are many, and you will shine in any civvy company.
Since leaving I have never been happier. I now work for ICL and in 3 months
I will have finished my MSc and will also be fully a fully qualified
Microsoft Systems Engineer. What a career change I haven't picked up a
spanner since leaving, and what were dirty fingernails?
Enjoy civvy street....There are pros and cons which ever way you look, but
things are "Better" on the outside..............................
Paul.
ex_j...@yahoo.co.uk
Thing is James, is that they are quite happy to let all their techies go
experienced, genuine or otherwise. Its much cheaper to put contractors
in - you must have seen it already what with Serco, Inca and all the
other short-termist, PFI johnnies. Don't see many of the officers being
replaced with contracts though! Did you know that the ratio is now just
under 4 erks to every officer? Not like that in my day etc.
All the best on the outside.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Andy B
uk.people.ex-forces
:->James.
:->Life out here ain't rosy either.
PMJI, I`m not ex-forces but as someone who is going through the process of
joining the RAF, all I can say here is "I agree". I have been on the dole
for the past 6 months, and there is no chance of a job anywhere, unless I
want to be a security guard for £2 per hour. Of course I`m not trained in
anything specific, I`m more jack of all trades but master of none :-). I
originally applied for Avionics Mechanic, but the RAF say that trade isn`t
available for a long time yet, and I just want to escape from civvy street
and the mundane life there is on offer. All I have to look forward to now is
retraining schemes for 6 months then back onto the dole, jobclub <no
thanks>, and an interview every 13 weeks to see what I am doing to look for
work.
BTW I would like to hear from anyone who was an Aerospace Systems operator
either by e-mail <remove the PLUG> or via the NG as that is what I have
applied for, I have read the information from the CIO but would like to hear
from anyone who actually did the job, is it boring, exciting, as well paid
as I am led to believe, as quick for promotions as I was told by the CIO.
Bear in mind that I haven`t actually signed the form to say what I want to
do, and that I can change my mind :-).
I do have friends in the RAF at the moment and all they want to do is stay
in, my brother is in the Army because he felt the same way as me, no job, no
hope, no life.
<snip rest of post>
--
Pull the plug to e-mail
Andy
Terry Parrott
South there are just loads of jobs for qualified people.
Just pick up Thursdays Telegraph or the London Evening Standard. NOKIA just down
the road from me are recruiting now, and cannot find people, Motorola in Swindon
are also recruiting.
Just open your eyes and looking.
By the way, Security staff don't earn £2 and hour, my partner is a security
guard and he earns £6.50 per hour.
Seriously, send me your CV and I will help by pointing you in the right
direction.
Terry
Roger Gilmartin
excruciatingly boring. Add to that the fact that everyone on the station
from the CO's budgie upwards regards you as the lowest form of air force
life and you begin to get the picture.
I joined for an easy life with a lot of travel. (How dumb could I be ?).
When I realised what an awful mistake I had made, at least the air force
gave me the time off to improve my qualifications. I joined with 2 O levels
and left with 5 plus a C&G in Computer Studies. I now work in IT, get a
good salary and company car due in no small measure to the determination
never to do a boring job again.
Service life does have compensations - I met some great mates in there, but
be VERY careful about what trade you join. Make sure it provides skills
transferable to civvy street and remember that nobody will look out for you
if you don't.
Regards..... Roger G.
Andy B wrote in message <36dabb31...@news.freeserve.net>...
Andy B
<gilm...@btinternet.com> wrote in uk.people.ex-forces
:->I was an ASoP (Buchan 75 -> 77, West Drayton 78 -> 80). It was
:->excruciatingly boring.
Thanks Roger, hmmm...maybe it`s time I changed my mind then. TBH it doesn`t
look to be the most exciting job in the world, but maybe it beats signing on
once a fortnight.
:-> Add to that the fact that everyone on the station
:->from the CO's budgie upwards regards you as the lowest form of air force
:->life and you begin to get the picture.
/me reaches for trade list, and starts looking for something else. :-)
And from the list I would say I am interested in the Mech transport driver,
Mech transport mechanic, and maybe supplier. But after consultation with
friends who are currently serving they say the same as you about the ASoP.
:->
:->I joined for an easy life with a lot of travel. (How dumb could I be ?).
That`s what I`m after, sort of. I just want to get away from unemployment.
:->When I realised what an awful mistake I had made, at least the air force
:->gave me the time off to improve my qualifications.
At least that`s good to know :-)
:-> I joined with 2 O levels and left with 5 plus a C&G in Computer Studies.
My GCSEs weren`t too good either, but I hope to better them eventually.
:->determination never to do a boring job again.
My motto :-)
:->Service life does have compensations - I met some great mates in there, but
:->be VERY careful about what trade you join. Make sure it provides skills
:->transferable to civvy street and remember that nobody will look out for you
:->if you don't.
Thanks m8, I`ve had a good read of what you say and haven`t yet made up my
mind fully. I have the RAF careers CD-ROM and I think I`ll have another
flick through that later.
<Later>
I`ve had a look through and have decided to go for what I should have done
in the first place, motor vehicle engineering, my grades at the CIO were
better than average <according to them>.
--
Pull the plug to e-mail
Andy
P.S. I hope no-one thinks I`m trolling, I`m not. I thought I would get a few
opinions from people who have been there and done that, before I sign my
life away :-).
Andy B
wrote in uk.people.ex-forces
:->Some people do talk some crap. I don't know where you are in the UK but in the
:->South there are just loads of jobs for qualified people.
Err, thanks I think. BTW I`m from the NE if you haven`t seen the news lately
you would see that at least 2 major employers up here have recently closed,
those being Siemens and Fujitsu. And more recently LG Electronics are
announcing cutbacks IIRC. I am not qualified, as I mentioned I`m a jack of
all trades but master of none. I`ve done a bit of joinery, factory work,
storework, floor sweeping, none of which i particularly liked doing. The
local major employer has a habit of hiring and firing, which isn`t their
fault, but unfortunately that is the way up here at the moment, most of my
factory work has been involved in PCB production. with the aforementioned
factories closing down means we were affected. :-(
:->
:->Just pick up Thursdays Telegraph or the London Evening Standard. NOKIA just down
:->the road from me are recruiting now, and cannot find people, Motorola in Swindon
:->are also recruiting.
We have similar papers up here and I can assure you I read each and everyone
twice in case I miss any good vacancies, but really all I have done since
leaving school is either factory work (paid well, but paid off) or signing
on. Which is what I wanting to get away from.
:->
:->Just open your eyes and looking
Believe me, my local jobcentre is sick of the sight of me. :-)
:->
:->By the way, Security staff don't earn £2 and hour, my partner is a security
:->guard and he earns £6.50 per hour.
Honestly they do up here, and the hours are 60+ per week. The lowest paid
wage I have seen for a security guard (up here) was £1.80 per hour (This is
no lie). I`m not saying I wouldn`t do security work, but not for the
outrageous wages they offer (up here anyway).
:->
:->Seriously, send me your CV and I will help by pointing you in the right
:->direction.
Thanks for the offer, but I have an interview with the RAF next week. But
I`m not pinning all hopes on them just yet.
:->
:->Terry
:->
Michael `Mike` Crowe
<An...@broon74.freeserve.co.uk> writes
P.S. I hope no-one thinks I`m trolling, I`m not. I thought I would get a
few
opinions from people who have been there and done that, before I sign my
life away :-).
Hi Andy
I doubt for one minute if anyone thought you were trolling. I answered
one of these quiries a couple of weeks ago and offered my 2 penyworth
and because we can talk from the `experience` we encountered, then you
get it from those who know. Not so much `We`ve been there done that got
the tee shirt so don`t try to tell us`, but a case of `we can tell you
not to believe this on the video` etc. etc. etc.`
The comment I had back from the information I was able to give, (and
this covered all the areas from my going in as what in the Royal Navy is
called `Lower Deck` ie Blue Collar and Bell Bottoms to a Commission and
life in the Wardroom) was ; "You have given far more information that
the video ever gives or can give". When I told my wife of his remark,
her comment was `Well you aren`t trying to sell it are you`
Whatever you do mate, take the good with the bad. And by the way, when
you reach your 60`s, you will realise that 9 years, a long time ogo, is
not `a life`!!
Best wishes
Mike
Michael `Mike` Crowe R.N. Ship...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk
H.M.S.Collingwood Assoc...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk
All Ex-servicemen should look at the newsgroup:- uk.people.ex-forces
Ex Royal Navy? Read NAVY NEWS, monthly from H.M.S.Nelson, Portsmouth PO1 3HH
Alec Powell
>you would see that at least 2 major employers up here have recently closed,
>those being Siemens and Fujitsu.
>Thanks for the offer, but I have an interview with the RAF next week. But
>I`m not pinning all hopes on them just yet.
Andy. I think you're getting some bad vibes from some people here.
For every disillusioned ex RAF type there are a lot of us ex serving and
serving forces people who would say go for it in a big way. Joining the
forces is more than just getting away from the dole queue. O.K. some
trades seem to be getting a rough deal from what I've read but I still
reckon that if you want a bit more varied, interesting and maybe, (Just
maybe......), exciting life then forget the RAF, ( a lot of those I met
were always whingers anyway:-), and maybe consider one of the other
services.
Cheers and good luck,
Alec
"Arte et Marte"
--
Alec Powell Watlington Oxon. UK Museum of Berkshire Aviation
http://www.prole.demon.co.uk South Oxfordshire War Memorials
mailto:al...@prole.demon.co.uk The Red Kite
THE MIDDLESEX REGIMENT (57th/77th Regiments of Foot)
http://www.prole.demon.co.uk/middlesex/middlesx.htm
N.Elk...@lboro.ac.uk
wes <wes.s...@t-online.de> wrote in article
<7aflj1$t88$1...@news01.btx.dtag.de>...
> Once again it seems that some one points the 'stick and carrot' principle
> out. Do your best and you will be rewarded. What a load of bol***ks. It
> isn't what you know, but whom you know.
Not always .
I joined up with minor qualifications already (Only ONC Engineering at the
time but a start) but went from Sapper to S/Sgt in about
6 years.
This included tours in NI and mucking about in BAOR in order to get the
required qualifications and background to advance.
Eventually leaving with a list of engineering qualifications and experience
second to none of my peer group.
It still wasn't easy settling in civvy street, but thats not the systems
fault.
Civvies just wouldn't believe the CV. And it didn't lie.
> People that have asked me wether to join the RAF or not have been advised
> against in doing such. They are better of in civy street where they know
how
> they will be treated. In the RAF there would seem to be a hidden agenda,
> that if you do not fit in, you will not get any where.
Don't know about the RAF, I was an RE.
Never licked a boot or ar-- in my life, and certainly couldn't be accused
of 'fitting in'.
Bit of a rogue really.(Not a terrorist, just a rogue).
I got Os at my annuals just for doing what I was paid to do. No bulls----.
Seems to me the system enjoyed my presence as much as I did its.
I grew out of it after 15 (or so) years, but we didn't fall out, I just
moved on.
I came across many who used 'I don't fit in' as an excuse for comparative
underperformance.
I'm not suggesting there weren't bottlenecks, but the presence of an
upcoming one was just one of the many reasons I left.
Maybe I was just lucky, but I knew an awful lot more just as 'lucky'.
>'ve also found, that
> people that involve themselves in high profile secondary duties in order
to
> get recognition, do it to the costs of their fellow colleagues. Yet
another
> case of 'I'm alright Jack'.
Again, I wasn't a footballer; etc. etc. Spent my whole time doing (or
pretending to do) the job I was actually paid to do,,,,,,
Oh yes, and a good deal of the liquid stuff. I do agree that we spent some
time covering for the sportsmen on strength (and others), but they did the
same for us when it mattered.
>
> regards
>
> Wes
>
Just my twopenneth Wes.
Maybe the RAF wasn't as good as the RE.
(Note wasn't as I'm many years out now).
Folding Norman
Michael `Mike` Crowe
<al...@prole.demon.co.uk> writes
> and maybe consider one of the other
>services.
>Cheers and good luck,
>Alec
>"Arte et Marte"
And if you want the transcript of what I told the other chappie about
the Royal Navy, I still have it complete with his questions and my
answers.
I think that there is far more cameraderie in the Royal Navy than there
is in the R.A.F., but I cannot talk from my own experience, only that
which has been very evident to me over the last 5 years. But may I
suggest that you go to the newsagent and get a copy of Navy News and the
RAF News and compare content. There is a magazine called The Soldier,
but I only ever bought 1 copy so cannot comment on a very small
experience via 1 magazine. These magazines are not `selling` the
service, they are for the person already in.
Basically, and I think that all servicemen and ex servicemen will agree,
you get out what you put in and the more effort you put in into helping
and being friendly with your fellow mates, the more you get out.
Good luck from an old git who wishes he had the same experience then,
that he has now. Now, if I knew then what I know now, well ...........
......................................................!!!!!!!
Alec Powell
N.Elk...@lboro.ac.uk writes
>Not always .
>I joined up with minor qualifications already (Only ONC Engineering at the
>time but a start) but went from Sapper to S/Sgt in about
>6 years.
NO qualifications when I joined up as a boy soldier and after 5 years
had 3 stripes and a rucksack full of qualifications. The opportunity for
advancement had to be seen to be believed. I will be eternally grateful
for what the mob did for me considering all those poor bastards who also
left school with nothing and now 30 years on still have nothing.
If the RAF is as bad as some of these people are making out this thread
SHOULD be entitled *Don't even consider joining the RAF or you might end
up with a chip on your shoulder*.
And...... before anyone lays into me I spent one hell of a lot of time
with RAF personnel whilst I was in the Army, (we were busy showing them
how to fly helicopters BTW:-), and I can't say as I met up with many
crabs who were as pissed off as some of the ones in our group. On the
whole they were pretty much the same as us with the exception of having
the very luvvy Malcolm clubs to frequent. As for boozing etc. the Battle
of Bedale in 1969, (Army/RAF 10 - Local civvie thugs 0) will testify to
true Army/RAF co-operation. Unfortunately the glasshouse at Leeming
could not fit us all in and us Army guys, (being guests you must
remember), were let off with a warning.
Come on you RAF lot! Lighten up!
Alec
wes
things. I believe that you actually get rewarded when you go on courses
which would further your career, courses specific to your trade. This then
would help towards promotion. Ergo, the more courses you take the better the
chance is in getting promoted.
You mentioned 6 years from Sapper to S/Sgt. Unfortunately I do not know if
that is the norm in rank progression. Excuse my ignorance in comparisons
between RAF and RE ranks, but I think S/SGT is equivalent to either a Chief
Tech or a Flight SGT. To get to the rank of F/SGT would take approx. 14
years. This consists of the following.
Basic Trainee to Junior Technician - 18 months
Junior Technician to Cpl - 3 years (if you are on time promotion, although
doesn't work every time)
Cpl to SGT - minimum of 4 years
Sgt to Chief Tech - min 3 years
Chief Tech to F/SGT - poss 2 years
Bearing in mind that between Trainee to Junior Tech jumps 2 ranks, without
this it would take even longer.
It would seem that in the Army you actually have something to aim for. I
myself was a CPL for 5 Years and some of my friends and colleagues had been
in the same rank of CPL for 12 Years with no where to go or to aim for. That
had nothing to do with lack of knowledge or experience. Those 2 were
plentiful.
Luckily the job I had in the mob left me with a good chance in getting a job
in civvie street. Others are not so lucky, mainly because of their trades.
Looking back, I sometimes think that I would have been better of joining the
Army. Maybe I should have gone to the Army Selection Centre after all.
Hindsight..........
WES
LesB
>Come on you RAF lot! Lighten up!
Find myself echoing this sentiment. I was in the RAF - 1958 to 1975 -
Airframes, and had, mostly, a good time in several different bits of
geography.
Andy, if you decide to join, don't think its a bed of roses - its not.
But it *is* what you make of it. If you join with an *attitude*
you'll be run over quickly. If you join thinking *what'll it do for
me?*, you'll be run over quickly. If you join with a positive
attitude, prepared to take the knocks and prepared to give it a go -
you'll do just fine. The RAF (or any of the services) will give you
something that no civvy firm can - self-dicipline, self-esteem and a
real chance to develop yourself.
Remember though, in any of the services, you won't have a *right* to
anything. If you shout off about your *rights* you'll get run over.
If you learn the *system* you could just be the one doing the running
over. Be like a tree squire and *bend with the wind*. Do this and
you'll be *the wind* one day.
One thing though - if you are intent on joining the RAF, get into one
of the aircraft trades - Airframes, Engines, etc . Get on a Squadron.
What's the point of being in the RAF if you don't go near or work on
the aircraft? All the real whingers I knew in the RAF were non-
aircraft tradesmen - admin, cooks, MT, stores, etc. I would suggest
that concept this holds true for Navy and Army as well.
I don't know what RAF the other guys in this thread were in, maybe
they were looking for something else? None of them seem to be *heavy*
trades though . . . .is there any riggers or fitters out there? ;-)
LesB
{take out one to mail}
EE Canberra Tribute Site
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~lesb/canberra.html
Andy B
<mike...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk> wrote in uk.people.ex-forces
<Snip anti troll bit> :-)
:->Hi Andy
:->
:->I doubt for one minute if anyone thought you were trolling.
I didn`t think anyone was, I put it in because a couple of other groups I
sub to have had problems with trolls, and er....oh never mind forget it :-)
:-> I answered one of these quiries a couple of weeks ago and offered my 2 penyworth
:->and because we can talk from the `experience` we encountered, then you
:->get it from those who know. Not so much `We`ve been there done that got
:->the tee shirt so don`t try to tell us`, but a case of `we can tell you
:->not to believe this on the video` etc. etc. etc.`
Exactly what I am after :-) I was shown the video on ASoP, and was told by
the sergeant <spelling> at the CIO that it was the best job to go for,
regarding pay, promotion etc. But re-reading Rogers post made my mind up
*not* to do it, I`ve had boring jobs before <although nothing like ASoP>,
and now I`ve had time to think, I realise it`s not what I want to do. I
achieved quite high technical marks at the aptitude test, but with not
having my GCSE maths I miss out on quite a few trades :-( I was hoping to do
Avionics Mechanics, but that trade isn`t going to be available for a while
(I`ll find out exactly on Monday). And if it`s not going to take too long I
may still go for it, but in the meanwhile I have settled on Mechanical
Transport Mechanic, hopefully aiming for technician.
:->
:->Whatever you do mate, take the good with the bad. And by the way, when
:->you reach your 60`s, you will realise that 9 years, a long time ogo, is
:->not `a life`!!
60 ?? phew long way away yet <erm let me think> 35 years to go, I don`t want
to just sign up for 9 years I want the lot, keep me in for as long as
possible.
:->Best wishes
:->Mike
Thanks Mike
--
Someone`s nicked my funny sig
Andy B | ICQ# 11949173
--
Andy B
wrote in uk.people.ex-forces
:->Andy. I think you're getting some bad vibes from some people here.
It was just that reply when she said I talked crap, but we hadn`t
established what it was I did, <Jack of all trades, but master of none> and
I think it could have been the remark about security guards <whoops>.
:->For every disillusioned ex RAF type there are a lot of us ex serving and
:->serving forces people who would say go for it in a big way.
My friends who are currently serving say it`s going to take a pick and
shovel to get them out, although my brother who`s in the Army he says he
wants to leave. He also says it`s possible to transfer from one service to
another, anyone shed any light on this ??
:->Joining the forces is more than just getting away from the dole queue.
For me it is, and I`ve wanted to join up since I left school, but with
discovering beer, pizzas, kebabs it sort of got put on hold, and the
waistline got a battering. But August last year was the turning point, I was
stuck in a crap job, on low wages. So I put a rest day in one Friday and
went straight to the RAF CIO and arranged an aptitude test. Passed aptitude
test, wouldn`t give a medical because I was so overweight <Which I knew
would happen, butI wanted to see if I could get the trade I wanted> But
since August I have lost over 3½ stone and am currently on target for losing
more. Incidentally are there any doctors here ?? <sorry I go on a bit> The
doctor who examined me said I am overweight for my height, which is 12½
stone @ 5'5". A friend of mine is going through the process of joining the
Army and his dimensions are the same except for him being an inch taller and
½ stone lighter and they say he is spot on. What`s going on ?? I`m a medium
build, but the doc says I have to achieve 10.3 stone to be on target.
Although when I went back to the CIO, they said the doctor is doing the same
with everybody, telling them they`re either over or under weight.
<Whoop sorry, I went on a bit there :-)>
:->O.K. some trades seem to be getting a rough deal from what I've read but I still
:->reckon that if you want a bit more varied, interesting and maybe, (Just
:->maybe......), exciting life then forget the RAF, ( a lot of those I met
:->were always whingers anyway:-), and maybe consider one of the other
:->services.
I was this close " " to going into the Army careers office last Friday, but
I had to call in at my Grandmas, and my Dad had been on the phone saying the
RAF had phoned him to tell me to attend an interview on Monday March 1st.
Incidentally I have to attend this interview even though I failed my
medical. Anyone any ideas ??
:->Cheers and good luck,
:->Alec
:->"Arte et Marte"
Cheers
--
The e-mail address is valid
Andy | ICQ#11949173
--
Andy B
<mike...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk> wrote in uk.people.ex-forces
:->And if you want the transcript of what I told the other chappie about
:->the Royal Navy, I still have it complete with his questions and my
:->answers.
I would be interested in it, thanks. The e-mail address is valid if you`re
going to e-mail it.
:->I think that there is far more cameraderie in the Royal Navy than there
:->is in the R.A.F.,
I was in the ATC which explains my interest in the RAF, I`ve always wanted
to join, but read previous post regarding beer, pizzas, kebabs. :-)
:-> copy of Navy News and the RAF News and compare content.
I`ll do it tomorrow
:->Basically, and I think that all servicemen and ex servicemen will agree,
:->you get out what you put in and the more effort you put in into helping
:->and being friendly with your fellow mates, the more you get out.
I don`t intend to stay as a mechanic for all the time I`m in, I will be
putting my name down for just about every relevant course available which
will benefit my lifestyle when I get out. <That`s if I ever get in> :-)
wes
Valid comments from the army as well as people from the RAF.
LesB wrote in message <36d80d49...@nntp.netcruiser>...
>Alec Powell wrote:
>
>>Come on you RAF lot! Lighten up!
I class myself as a very enlightened person.
>
>Find myself echoing this sentiment. I was in the RAF - 1958 to 1975 -
>Airframes, and had, mostly, a good time in several different bits of
>geography.
It seems that a lot of the good reports that seem to be posted are from the
older (no disrespect intended) serving members (or ex serving members). When
I first joined I couldn't have found any faults with the RAF, but as years
passed I became more and more dissillusioned on the treatment of the various
trademen. It did not depend on the trade. It was the same with cooks,
suppliers or techies.
>
>Andy, if you decide to join, don't think its a bed of roses - its not.
>But it *is* what you make of it. If you join with an *attitude*
>you'll be run over quickly. If you join thinking *what'll it do for
>me?*, you'll be run over quickly. If you join with a positive
>attitude, prepared to take the knocks and prepared to give it a go -
>you'll do just fine. The RAF (or any of the services) will give you
>something that no civvy firm can - self-dicipline, self-esteem and a
>real chance to develop yourself.
Very true, it can. But then when the younger generation start to filter
through they build up their hopes, only to be knocked back to the start at
every oppertunity. There is no one there to consolidate their new built
confidence, self esteem etc.
>
>Remember though, in any of the services, you won't have a *right* to
>anything. If you shout off about your *rights* you'll get run over.
>If you learn the *system* you could just be the one doing the running
>over. Be like a tree squire and *bend with the wind*. Do this and
>you'll be *the wind* one day.
Exactly, do as I say, not as I do. This is the 1999s. Even though you know
that something is wrong, you cannot say anything in case that you might
upset someone who can't face the truth. As soon as you do, you get marked
down in your assessments and told to wind your neck in. If you still say
something after that, that's your career down the drain.
>
>One thing though - if you are intent on joining the RAF, get into one
>of the aircraft trades - Airframes, Engines, etc . Get on a Squadron.
>What's the point of being in the RAF if you don't go near or work on
>the aircraft? All the real whingers I knew in the RAF were non-
>aircraft tradesmen - admin, cooks, MT, stores, etc.
NOT TRUE
I would suggest
>that concept this holds true for Navy and Army as well.
Sorry, but I hate to burst your bubble there. I have a lot of contact with
the lads on the line and I have yet to hear something possitive about it.
With all the cuts in manpower (SDR) the morale on the squadrons is anything
but high. To say that it is limited to any one camp is the same as wearing
blinkers. There is just not enough manpower to cover all the current
theatres as well as keeping the bases running. Fair enough, it's all part of
the job, after all you do get paid for the inconvenience. But it still
doesn't justify the way people are treated. The RAFs new phrase at the
moment, 'Investment in People'. Shame that thhey don't actualy practice what
they preach. As per usual.
PVR rates are low - not. Even after studies on the low moral problem, it is
never accepted and then totally ignored.
>
>I don't know what RAF the other guys in this thread were in, maybe
>they were looking for something else? None of them seem to be *heavy*
>trades though . . . .is there any riggers or fitters out there? ;-)
I'm sorry to be so negative but until they get their act sorted, things will
go from bad to worse.
WES
N.Elk...@lboro.ac.uk
> I've found that the Army differs a lot compared to the RAF in a lot of
> things. I believe that you actually get rewarded when you go on courses
> which would further your career, courses specific to your trade. This
then
> would help towards promotion. Ergo, the more courses you take the better
the
> chance is in getting promoted.
This was (and possibly still is in some units, )but RE was , I think
similar to RAF, in that trade bands were the norm,
Courses merely attracted higher pay within the trades bands, and obviously
opened up promotion.
Not necessarily guaranteed it.
>
> You mentioned 6 years from Sapper to S/Sgt. Unfortunately I do not know
if
> that is the norm in rank progression. Excuse my ignorance in comparisons
> between RAF and RE ranks, but I think S/SGT is equivalent to either a
Chief
> Tech or a Flight SGT.
Yup. S/Sgt equates to Ft Sgt.....about.
Warrant officer follows, although there are slight differences.
To get to the rank of F/SGT would take approx. 14
> years. This consists of the following.
> Basic Trainee to Junior Technician - 18 months
> Junior Technician to Cpl - 3 years (if you are on time promotion,
although
> doesn't work every time)
> Cpl to SGT - minimum of 4 years
> Sgt to Chief Tech - min 3 years
> Chief Tech to F/SGT - poss 2 years
> Bearing in mind that between Trainee to Junior Tech jumps 2 ranks,
without
> this it would take even longer.
I reckon we have a fundamental difference in career structures. When I
joined the army, the career structure was basically designed around a 22
year career, from starting point.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the RAF was based on a career
to age of 55.
I think the theory behind the army was that at 22 years, you would be
either incapable, or have gone on to a Commission or similar.
So yes, career progression within the army was (and maybe still is faster).
But you could find yourself at an abrupt end at 40.
This isn't to do with redundancy etc..
I wasn't suggesting that RE or RAF were any better or worse than each
other, merely that in my experience, you didn't have to join funny
organisations nor particular sub groups in order to achieve
promotion.........generally.
>
> It would seem that in the Army you actually have something to aim for. I
> myself was a CPL for 5 Years and some of my friends and colleagues had
been
> in the same rank of CPL for 12 Years with no where to go or to aim for.
That
> had nothing to do with lack of knowledge or experience. Those 2 were
> plentiful.
Some sappers took a good while to progress, but I was in a more technical
element and promotion came with the higher technical courses.
>
> Luckily the job I had in the mob left me with a good chance in getting a
job
> in civvie street. Others are not so lucky, mainly because of their
trades.
> Looking back, I sometimes think that I would have been better of joining
the
> Army. Maybe I should have gone to the Army Selection Centre after all.
There we differ ever so slightly, in that my civvy street work, not that
its boring, has never quite matched the heaps of responsibility that I was
afforded in the RE.
However, I do agree that more good advice ought to be given to our
younsters on what they might expect after they have served.
> Hindsight..........
Wouldn't we all love it(:-)
>
> WES
Norman
N...@smart34.freeserve.co.uk
>Alec Powell wrote:
>
>>Come on you RAF lot! Lighten up!
>
>Find myself echoing this sentiment. I was in the RAF - 1958 to 1975 -
>Airframes, and had, mostly, a good time in several different bits of
>geography.
>
>Andy, if you decide to join, don't think its a bed of roses - its not.
>But it *is* what you make of it. If you join with an *attitude*
>you'll be run over quickly. If you join thinking *what'll it do for
>me?*, you'll be run over quickly. If you join with a positive
>attitude, prepared to take the knocks and prepared to give it a go -
>you'll do just fine. The RAF (or any of the services) will give you
>something that no civvy firm can - self-dicipline, self-esteem and a
>real chance to develop yourself.
>
>Remember though, in any of the services, you won't have a *right* to
>anything. If you shout off about your *rights* you'll get run over.
>If you learn the *system* you could just be the one doing the running
>over. Be like a tree squire and *bend with the wind*. Do this and
>you'll be *the wind* one day.
>
>One thing though - if you are intent on joining the RAF, get into one
>of the aircraft trades - Airframes, Engines, etc . Get on a Squadron.
>What's the point of being in the RAF if you don't go near or work on
>the aircraft? All the real whingers I knew in the RAF were non-
>aircraft tradesmen - admin, cooks, MT, stores, etc. I would suggest
>that concept this holds true for Navy and Army as well.
>
>I don't know what RAF the other guys in this thread were in, maybe
>they were looking for something else? None of them seem to be *heavy*
>trades though . . . .is there any riggers or fitters out there? ;-)
Not forgetting of course in your day you could be SGT in 10 years no
problem and reap all the pay rewards and benefits that entails.
Things are different now - alot different. If the sun shines out of
your arse you may get it before you do the 22 and kick you out under
the antiquated rules that have been need of change for years.
Oh and I have been in supply for 19 years now. My problem hasn't been
with lack of being near aircraft (hands on). It is with stuffing we
are getting at the moment.
I have been to Gibralter, Hong Kong, Cyprus, Germany, Belgium,
Holland, France, Spain, Africa, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, America,
Ireland, Falklands, Ascension to name a few and had a bloody good
laugh into the bargain. I have loved my job.
The biggest whingers I have ever met have been a/c techs. Give em a
spanner and they are fine, give em a SA-80, sleeping bag, a stick of
cam cream and a hexy burner and they bleat like lambs.
IMHO of course !
>LesB
>{take out one to mail}
>EE Canberra Tribute Site
>http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~lesb/canberra.html
Steve M
wes
>joined the army, the career structure was basically designed around a 22
>year career, from starting point.
>Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the RAF was based on a career
>to age of 55.
>I think the theory behind the army was that at 22 years, you would be
>either incapable, or have gone on to a Commission or similar.
>So yes, career progression within the army was (and maybe still is faster).
>But you could find yourself at an abrupt end at 40.
>This isn't to do with redundancy etc..
>I wasn't suggesting that RE or RAF were any better or worse than each
>other, merely that in my experience, you didn't have to join funny
>organisations nor particular sub groups in order to achieve
>promotion.........generally.
>
The career structure within the RAF is and was varied. There are various
schemes going on depending on what engagement you are on, what trade and
what rank you had achieved. The 22 years engagement was never offered
initialy. It was a mixture of either 9, 12 or 15 years to start of with (in
my particular trade anyway).
I was initialy on a 15 years engagement when I joined. After 3 years I
attained the rank of CPL ( which took 5 1/2 years) and was then afforded the
chance of then signing on for 22 years. This I gladly took. After all, it
was said that the RAF was a job for life (!!!). This was cut short when my
trade (the whole one mind you) was made redundant.
As for the 55 years old question, the following is a recollection of what my
SGTs etc used to tell us. Once signed on for 22 years and you achieved
further promotions you actually had the chance of signing on until the age
of 56. This as far as I know is how it worked. If I'm mistaken please point
out the errors.
Best regards
WES
Ged Higgins
I've been in since 1975 and still am, only till my daughter finishes
her education, then I am long gone.
Things have changed beyond belief, especially in the last 8 or 9 yrs
and its you guys who have only been in that long that I feel most
sorry for. At least I was in the Air Force of a 100,000 plus.(To
begin with)
The one thing that hasn't changed however, is the archaic attitude of
management. Its like time has stood still since the 50's. Every
change in practice is being forced on them by legislation. They KNOW
thet they are breaking the law on a lot of things... But they just
don't care.
There are not enough of us left in the mob to cover the tasks
required, overstretch is beyond belief.
To those thinking of joining, I have only these hard won experiences
to give to you.
We are an industry in TOTAL decline, with paymasters who will only
continue to cut our budgets whilst expecting more. Things will not get
better unless the direct security of our mainland is at risk.
SDR is a joke and will in time be proved to be most damaging to all 3
services. We are currently 4000 short, and our out flow still exceeds
input.
You will be expected to work long, long hours, often in appalling
conditions. Please remember the recent hard won Workers Hours
legislation DOES NOT APPLY to the Armed Services.
You may at times receive less than the national minimum wage.
You will have to do the work of 2 or 3 people( Ask the CIO about
SECONDARY DUTIES REQUIREMENTS) and annual Leave is a privilige NOT a
right. Most people are losing a lot of theirs.
Career progression is almost non existant, remember that from now on
they only want recruits for 9 to 12 years, they cannot afford to give
out longer terms.
Most of what you hear at CIO's is propaganda and outright lies, they
have targets to meet and will NOT give you the best job that you may
be suited to.
If you are sent away on a long course, you will be expected, nay
required to pay for your board and lodgings at the temporary unit, if
sent away on operations, you will be given money that will not cover
the costs of eating out in cities etc, so you will be out of pocket.
Oh and last but not least, you will be expected to go overseas, to a
cold snowy place, on the pretext of peace keeping duties, to give up
your life if THEY so require it. Just so we can keep our seat on the
security council. Remember the last Recruiting campaign??
THEIR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU!!!
Cynical I may be, very experienced I am. I welcome e-mails and will
reply to all if any one wishes to communicate further, I can tell you
about the good times as well!!!
Ged
Peter Parry
B) wrote:
> He also says it`s possible to transfer from one service to
>another, anyone shed any light on this ??
I think you should assume it isn't possible. It is one of those
things which can be done but very rarely manage to work!
--
Peter Parry. 01442 212597 0973 269132 fax 01442 233169
http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk
Brett Palfrey
, "Roger Gilmartin"
> wrote in uk.people.ex-forces
>
>:->I was an ASoP (Buchan 75 -> 77, West Drayton 78 -> 80). It was
>:->excruciatingly boring.
>
I believe ASoP is V> Boring job. I am Ex-WRAF AATC (Assistant Air Traffic
Controller). My Husband is also ex-AATC. He has more experience of the
Scopies and their job since he was also at RAF West Drayton for 2 tours. I
met him when I was about to join up - sort of at the stage you are now - and
it was he and my brother (Yes another AATC still serving) who advised me
against ASoP. Scopies tend to get posted to all the worst places also.
>
>:-> Add to that the fact that everyone on the station
>:->from the CO's budgie upwards regards you as the lowest form of air force
life and you begin to get the picture.
This is also true. BUT this may stem from the fact that they have an easier
job of work than Air Traffickers and are in a higher pay band!! Or at least
they were when I served.
I thoroughly enjoyed my RAF service but got kicked out when I fell pregnant
with my first baby - unlikely to happen to you :-)) - IMHbiasedO would say
go for it old son. Much rather the RAF than the pongos but I reckon the RN
might be an alternative if you dont mind big waves and seagulls;-) I would
echo previous sentiments about getting a trade that translates fairly easily
into civilian life - most important. Don't recommend Air Traffic for that
reason. Him Indoors and I were lucky - we both got jobs with CAA on leaving
but they are a little like the proverbial Rocking Horse Dung!!
Best of Luck
Tofty.
>--
>Pull the plug to e-mail
>Andy
>
Brett Palfrey
LesB wrote in message <36d80d49...@nntp.netcruiser>...
>
>>Come on you RAF lot! Lighten up!
>
>Find myself echoing this sentiment. I was in the RAF - 1958 to 1975 -
>Airframes, and had, mostly, a good time in several different bits of
>geography.
Don't want to start a flame war here guys but the RAF of your day is a whole
different kettle of fish to the service it has become. Options for Change
saw to that. Dont get me wrong I enjoyed my time in but I saw what
"Options" did to the trade of my husband and myself and to morale in general
in the RAF. It was a rough time to be serving in careerwise and many a good
man went under. As this is an Ex-Forces group, I would suspect that many of
the more disillusioned exRaf came out during or just post- options and that
has to colour anyones viewpoint.
Tofty
Sean H Patchett
Why should people send you their CVs?
I'm ex-RAF techie, in work but looking for better.
You tell us what you are offering, b4 getting people to blindly post CVs
Thanks
Sean
Terry Parrott wrote in message <36D1CCE5...@spunky.force9.co.uk>...
>Some people do talk some crap. I don't know where you are in the UK but in
the
>South there are just loads of jobs for qualified people.
>
>Just pick up Thursdays Telegraph or the London Evening Standard. NOKIA just
down
>the road from me are recruiting now, and cannot find people, Motorola in
Swindon
>are also recruiting.
>
>Just open your eyes and looking.
>
>By the way, Security staff don't earn £2 and hour, my partner is a security
>guard and he earns £6.50 per hour.
>
>Seriously, send me your CV and I will help by pointing you in the right
>direction.
>
>Terry
>
>Andy B wrote:
>
>> On 17 Feb 1999 13:21:59 GMT, <N.Elk...@lboro.ac.uk> wrote in
>> uk.people.ex-forces
>>
>> :->James.
>> :->Life out here ain't rosy either.
>>
>> PMJI, I`m not ex-forces but as someone who is going through the process
of
Sean H Patchett
Don't expect any promotion in MT.
I'm ex-MT Tech (DE), and whilst I loved my time in the mob, promo prospects
were, and still are absolutely SHITE. Most MT work, cabbies and fitters are
now civvy sub-contracted, leaving just a handful of boys in blue to work on
the ancient specialist wagons.
If you want to go for it, then remove the blinkers, and keep "listening" to
these NG posts.
All the best
Sean
ex RAF MT Tech (DE12), 1984-1992
Andy B wrote in message <36d5260...@news.freeserve.net>...
>On Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:38:48 +0000, Michael `Mike` Crowe
><mike...@mikecrowe.demon.co.uk> wrote in uk.people.ex-forces
>
>
Roger Gilmartin
Brett Palfrey wrote in message <7b20tb$5f1$1...@epos.tesco.net>...
>>:-> Add to that the fact that everyone on the station
>>:->from the CO's budgie upwards regards you as the lowest form of air
force
>life and you begin to get the picture.
>
>
>This is also true. BUT this may stem from the fact that they have an
easier
>job of work than Air Traffickers and are in a higher pay band!! Or at least
>they were when I served.
>
I always thought we were paid more BECAUSE of the boredom factor. Certainly
the air traffic sections worked just the same shifts, and stood their turn
at ground defence like us scopies so no cause for a scopie premium there !
Having read in this thread about life after SDR, I now look back on my time
in as the good old days - never thought I would think THAT.....
Regards.... Roger G
Paul Giverin
N...@smart34.freeserve.co.uk writes
>
>The biggest whingers I have ever met have been a/c techs. Give em a
>spanner and they are fine, give em a SA-80, sleeping bag, a stick of
>cam cream and a hexy burner and they bleat like lambs.
>
>IMHO of course !
Of course ! ;)
--
Paul Giverin
LesB
>Don't want to start a flame war here guys but the RAF of your day is a whole
>different kettle of fish to the service it has become. Options for Change
>saw to that. Dont get me wrong I enjoyed my time in but I saw what
>"Options" did to the trade of my husband and myself and to morale in general
>in the RAF. It was a rough time to be serving in careerwise and many a good
>man went under. As this is an Ex-Forces group, I would suspect that many of
>the more disillusioned exRaf came out during or just post- options and that
>has to colour anyones viewpoint.
Hope you don't mind my replying to all of the above via your post.
The RAF nowadays, and prob since Options, has and is changed. Even
towards the end of my time there was a outdrift of guys who had their
*knees brown* - and it was keenly felt I can tell you. I guess the
current state of affairs is as a result of that. But . . . . .
. . . the general perception of those still *in* when I was coming up
to demob was that the people who were new were only looking for a
*job* and were not really interested in being in the RAF - it could
have been Ford Co for all they cared! This wasn't the attitude over
most of my time. Being in the RAF was important. Working on military
aircraft, the guys, the shared troubles - and laughs. The money was
lousy, service men's pay always has been. The conditions were so-so,
front line fighters serviced with reconditioned WWII ground equipment,
TACEVALS, exercises, playing at war at any time of day or night, the
IRA killing off mates just because they could, the Cold War, all of
that stuff - it wasn't what you'd call *cool* - but its what I chose
as I wanted to be part of the *aircraft* thing - and it was what I
wanted to do. OK. That's me. But ISTR there was a lot of blokes like
me - we all whinged and grumbled, but we generally all worked at it -
we *hacked* it as the saying went.
The sense I'm getting nowadays is that serving with any of the forces
is just considered a job. Its not a job! Its a way of life! Its not
an easy answer to anything. Even when I was in promotion etc was
better if you boxed, or played rugger - the pass mark for trade exams
was set AFTER all papers were in and depended on the numbers of people
who got right answers. It isn't easy - it never has been and never
will be. Any moan I had (or funny story) could be matched by my old
man who was RAF in WWII! I suspect that principle still holds true
for the present RAF guys or the recently demobbed.
So, Although my perspective may be *old* I still maintain that if you
elect to join RAF, RN or Army, you must set your mind to the fact that
you are going to cut yourself off from the human race for a number of
years. If you want a steady 9-5 *job* in a big corporation, try and
join Alstom or some such.
--
Smoke on. Go.
LesB
[take out one to mail]
Andy B
<Sean.H....@btinternet.com> wrote in uk.people.ex-forces
>Andy
>
>Don't expect any promotion in MT.
I think I`ve changed my mind again :-) Someone mentioned in another post
about "You`re in the Air Force then work on aircraft", so after another look
through the CD-ROM, I`m going to see when the Avionics mechanic is available
on Monday <suitability interview>, or anything aircraft related. I really
fancy doing something different than cars & bikes. <I know it seems as if
I`m chopping and changing, but I can`t really make up my mind> :-( It just
seems as if doing anything would be a welcome break from doing nothing.
>If you want to go for it, then remove the blinkers, and keep "listening" to
>these NG posts.
That`s what I`m doing :-)
>
>All the best
Cheers
Andy B
in uk.people.ex-forces
>who advised meagainst ASoP. Scopies tend to get posted to all the worst places also.
I`ve been advised by people in here, and by friends currently serving. I
think I know what you mean by worst places :- Boulmer, Fylingdales :-)
<pulls on flakjacket>
>This is also true. BUT this may stem from the fact that they have an easier
>job of work than Air Traffickers and are in a higher pay band!! Or at least
>they were when I served.
This is what I was told by the CIO, so naturally I said "OK, Ill give it a
go", watch video, get home, read about it in depth, instantly regret it,
root round CD-ROM to find something better, find this NG and look what
happens :-)
>
>I thoroughly enjoyed my RAF service but got kicked out when I fell pregnant
>with my first baby - unlikely to happen to you :-))
You should have seen me before I started losing weight, looked like I was
going to have twins, but now after losing 2½ stone in 4 months I think I`m
ready or at least I thought I was until I had my medical when the doc said
"Right you`re 5` 5" you should be 10st 3lbs, my heart sank" as at the time
weighed 12½ stone, but I received a phone call from the CIO last Friday
telling me to go in for a suitability interview. I`ll let you know how I get
on.
> I would echo previous sentiments about getting a trade that translates fairly easily
>into civilian life - most important.
That`s what I want, which is why I binned ASoP.
>Best of Luck
>
>Tofty.
N...@smart34.freeserve.co.uk
wrote:
>I was initialy on a 15 years engagement when I joined. After 3 years I
>attained the rank of CPL ( which took 5 1/2 years) and was then afforded the
>chance of then signing on for 22 years. This I gladly took. After all, it
>was said that the RAF was a job for life (!!!). This was cut short when my
>trade (the whole one mind you) was made redundant.
Seems to me (and I am in no way getting at you) you were very
fortunate.
A Cpl in 3 years (Seen many a dedicated guy/gal walk after 12 years
as SAC in tears almost)
You were made redundant but had a good payoff as well thus have
security and are no doubt in your mid 30's to boot !
I would suggest you are lucky although I do not doubt you would have
preffered to stay in like I have to make a carreer of it. 3 years
left and no sign of promotion and forced civvy st to come at 40. The
worst thing is I applied for redundancy twice and was refused in a
trade that let hundreds go because.......oh well never mind. Gutted
still :-(
Steve M
Brett Palfrey
was eloquent enough to express. And every word a true one. I will add only
one thing. A potential recruit should note that if, in the future, your
plans include a wife/husband and family, remember that the RAF will expect
that no matter what the family situation the service comes first. The
spouse will be expected to follow orders too and put the needs of the
service before those of the family. Not an easy thing to come to terms
with.
Tofty Palfrey
Tom Connolly
Andy, I left the RAF 9 years ago. It was the best years of my life.
The RAF is having a bad press at the mo in this NG, but as you
say, civvy life isn't all that great, especially if you havn't got a trade.
My only advice is to go for something a bit more challenging than
an MT mech if you can (not that MT mech is not a good job for some
people). I was in Telecomms and now my experience is put to good
use out here in civvy street, expecially now with the Internet and more
and more people getting computers.
Tom
wes
truer word said. It is time that the RAF and the other forces came up to
speed. As mentioned previously, if they where in Civvie street they would
have long gone bankrupt or been closed down by the Health and Safety People.
Even since they introduced COSHH, people are still expected to bend the
rules in order to get the job done. No matter what the cost. If you screw up
it is your fault because you did not follow the guidelines, even though you
were pressured into doing it. It is a no win situation.
WES
Brett Palfrey wrote in message <7b4bgk$fs1$1...@epos.tesco.net>...
wes
>>I was initialy on a 15 years engagement when I joined. After 3 years I
>>attained the rank of CPL ( which took 5 1/2 years) and was then afforded
the
>>chance of then signing on for 22 years. This I gladly took. After all, it
>>was said that the RAF was a job for life (!!!). This was cut short when my
>>trade (the whole one mind you) was made redundant.
>
That was suppossed to read:
After 3 years in the rank of CPL, which took me originaly 5 1/2 years to
reach, I was allowed to sign on for 22 years.
I was lucky to be one of the last ones in my trade to be on time promotion.
Time promotion was suppossed to be a sure fire way of gaining promotion.
Rubbish. Eventually after a delay I was promoted.
Yes, I was one of the fortunate ones in the way of redundancy, but alot of
my collegues dipped out. It was just a lucky dip if you where fortunate or
not.
>You were made redundant but had a good payoff as well thus have
>security and are no doubt in your mid 30's to boot !
>
>I would suggest you are lucky although I do not doubt you would have
>preffered to stay in like I have to make a carreer of it. 3 years
>left and no sign of promotion and forced civvy st to come at 40. The
>worst thing is I applied for redundancy twice and was refused in a
>trade that let hundreds go because.......oh well never mind. Gutted
>still :-(
>
It is ironic that a lot of people that opt for redundancy do not get it and
the ones that do not want it are made redundant. It is just like when you
used to fill in your choices of posting. After remustering I applied for
certain post but did not get it. The ones that did not want my choice, got
it. Figur that one out.
All the best in our future
WES
N.Elk...@lboro.ac.uk
It does sound similar.
I was a 9/22 man. initially, and had to sign on to do certain courses.
i.e. Initial contract for 9, then to 22 if it suited both ways.
4 years was my last one, but I can't blame them really, the course was akin
to degree in all but name.
I recall a 'NOTENG' coming in where you merely gave 18 months notice of
transfer to the reserve, but I finished at/about 15.
Someone just brought up a good point though.
It seems to be the younger element who are doing the complaining at the
moment.
I'll but out, 'cos I don't know what its like now, and they do.
Suffice it to say, I would still recommend the RIGHT career in the forces
(any arm or branch) to any young lad, especially if the poor sod hasn't got
a job to start with.
--
Folding Norman
snip
> >
>
>
> The career structure within the RAF is and was varied. There are various
> schemes going on depending on what engagement you are on, what trade and
> what rank you had achieved. The 22 years engagement was never offered
> initialy. It was a mixture of either 9, 12 or 15 years to start of with
(in
> my particular trade anyway).
>
> I was initialy on a 15 years engagement when I joined. After 3 years I
> attained the rank of CPL ( which took 5 1/2 years) and was then afforded
the
> chance of then signing on for 22 years. This I gladly took. After all, it
> was said that the RAF was a job for life (!!!). This was cut short when
my
> trade (the whole one mind you) was made redundant.
LesB
>I totally agree with Tofty. The post that Ged sent was spot on. Never a
>truer word said. It is time that the RAF and the other forces came up to
>speed. As mentioned previously, if they where in Civvie street they would
>have long gone bankrupt or been closed down by the Health and Safety People.
>Even since they introduced COSHH, people are still expected to bend the
>rules in order to get the job done. No matter what the cost. If you screw up
>it is your fault because you did not follow the guidelines, even though you
>were pressured into doing it. It is a no win situation.
You really must have had a hard time getting on in the mob Wes as most
of the above smacks of extreme embitterment - as do the rest of your
posts. Other people posting to this thread have equally harrowing
tales. And if you re-read my posts you'll see that I have said RAF
life is no bed of roses. So what makes you think you're any
different?
Just what trade were you? You have said your whole trade was *made
redundant*, be good to know what that was. Maybe some clue as to the
genesis of your bitterness could be gleaned from such gen.
As for the thrust of your post, it is palpable nonsense to even
consider running an armed service like a civvy company. And anyone
who considers, even remotely, that this should be the case, should
re-evalute their principles vis-a-vis *defense of the realm* and what,
ultimately, is required of a serviceman(woman).
--
Smoke on. Go.
LesB
[take out one to mail]
Paul Giverin
N.Elk...@lboro.ac.uk writes
>Wes
>It does sound similar.
>I was a 9/22 man. initially, and had to sign on to do certain courses.
>i.e. Initial contract for 9, then to 22 if it suited both ways.
Tsk tsk. Much better to go from 9 to 12 and pocket the 28 days re-
engagement leave then go from 12 to 22 and get the 28 days leave again.
I'm surprised that the RAF let people get away with that and I'm not
sure if they allow it now. I do have to say that I was not given the
chance to go directly from 9 to 22 or I would have done so.
I took voluntary rendundancy after 18 of those 22 because I had no
chance of making the rank advancements (to Flt Sgt) required to stay in
until I was 55. The bad memories have faded now and I'm left with lots
of good ones. I would certainly do it all again but I'm not too sure I
would want to be joining the RAF today.
--
Paul Giverin
chas
<pa...@NOJUNKgiverin.demon.co.uk> writes
a hexy burner, and as for a "working" .303.........welllll
Modern RAF...Gulf (war) Bollocks. get yer knees brown
THEN (perhaps) you can start to whinge, unless u emigrate to Oz where
it's an International sport.
L4275973
--
chas
sp...@nothanks.com
>As for the thrust of your post, it is palpable nonsense to even
>consider running an armed service like a civvy company. And anyone
>who considers, even remotely, that this should be the case, should
>re-evalute their principles vis-a-vis *defense of the realm* and what,
>ultimately, is required of a serviceman(woman).
>
This is just what HM Government is attempting to do !!!!
That is the main reason for people banging out, it cannot be done. On my
squadron over 60% of the SNCO's are leaving for this reason alone.
A soon to be out but serving airman, sorry employee of a "civvy" company !!
Thomas Murphy
Never heard the saying if you cant take a joke
you shouldnt have joined??
Good to see nothing changes, your not talking about
anything that the rest of us saw in our time.
Say goodbye to the RAF if you must, and quote the fact
everyone else is leaving too....They won't you know...
The RAF will still be there long after you leave,
it won't fall to pieces...It never does.
I had ggod times and bad and more reason than most
to complain about my treatment as a quite recent war
pensioner, but hey there is life outside, but don't moan
too much in Civvy St. no one will want to hear it.
Good luck to you....I'm sure your mates will miss you
but the RAF will replace you...thats a fact of life...
But hey we ex services like a good moan don't we
its good for you...Just keep smiling.
sp...@nothanks.com
wrote:
>Good luck to you....I'm sure your mates will miss you
>but the RAF will replace you...thats a fact of life...
>But hey we ex services like a good moan don't we
>its good for you...Just keep smiling.
I'm sure they will :-) To both counts. The point I was making was that they
are trying to run the armed forces like a civilian company. It just cannot be
done. I've had some great times in the mob, but there comes a time when the
irregular shifts etc etc become more than a joke. Over my years in the RAF
22+ I've seen many changes but the worst has got to be the "civilianiation" of
the uniformed jobs that are still uniformed. Also I've been in long enough to
see most policies go around in circles
N.Elk...@lboro.ac.uk
wes <wes.s...@t-online.de> wrote in article
<7b4lcr$jmm$1...@news00.btx.dtag.de>...
snip
No matter what the cost. If you screw up
> it is your fault because you did not follow the guidelines, even though
you
> were pressured into doing it. It is a no win situation.
>
> WES
>
>
Woes
So what in this bit is any different to the majority of Goverment
Institutions.
(And for that matter any large Organisation)
PSA I worked for. (Old MPBW)
Now I work in an educational establishment.
To do the job properly and without cutting corners means unacceptable
levels of pressure.
There just isn't enough money to do it properly.
To let the job do the controlling is what most people do, and they get away
with it.....most of the time.
If you tell them; its your fault for not being efficient enough, or not
being a good manager, or not eating enough apples etc. etc. !!!!!!! Ring
any bells?
Witness who gets the blame every time someone from 'Care in the Community'
stabs or rapes an innocent.
The faceless wonders at the top don't want to know.........
Oh dear, has someone broken the rules again. Poor social worker must have
got it wrong, not government policy.
I'm not a lover of social workers, but they do carry the can a lot for
mismanagement, and epitomise many more of us.IMHO.
Don't we get paid to carry such burdens?(:-)
Those of us who demand that the job gets done safely are called awkward so
and sos.
Folding ( Life's rotten at the bottom(:-) Norman
Gordon Clark
process of leaving at the moment as I've got a job lined up as a network
controller in London. As for joining as a scopie yes there are boring
aspects of the job especially now the cold war has ended, but there are
plenty of decent jobs within the scopie trade. I've worked at Buchan,
Neatishead, Prestwick, West Drayton & Northwood plus tours in the Falklands
& a trip to France & the States on a ship (which more & more scopies are
going onto now) My advice is to wait for Avionics mechie if that's what u
want to do but I don't regret joining as a scopie even though I wanted to be
a Telecomms techie! (which is similar to what I'll be doing in London.) If u
want any more info drop me an e-mail. cheers Gordon.
Andy B wrote in message <36dc8b3e...@news.freeserve.net>...
N.Elk...@lboro.ac.uk
--
Folding Norman
sp...@nothanks.com wrote in article
<36d99c86...@news.freeserve.net>...
snip
>
> I'm sure they will :-) To both counts. The point I was making was that
they
> are trying to run the armed forces like a civilian company. It just
cannot be
> done. I've had some great times in the mob, but there comes a time when
the
> irregular shifts etc etc become more than a joke.
Have they started paying overtime yet? (:-)))))))
If so, I'm back in tomorrow.
Folding Norman