Plumbers Tool (Bending Spring)
Richard Beale
the desired effect for a first timer?
Thank you.
Richard
Dave Plowman
Richard Beale <Ric...@custardo.co.uk> wrote:
> Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to get
> the desired effect for a first timer?
They are *not* designed to be used on modern copper tube - it will
crinkle and possibly split. To use a spring, you need a different type of
copper tube - very expensive. Use a proper pipe bending tool.
--
* There's no place like www.home.com *
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
piers_t...@my-deja.com
Dave Plowman <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> They are *not* designed to be used on modern copper tube - it will
> crinkle and possibly split. To use a spring, you need a different
type of
> copper tube - very expensive.
What's your evidence for this? B&Q warehouse, for example, sell them
and I would expect them to warn their customers that they're not
compatible with the copper pipe which is sold next to them. Modern DIY
books still recommend them.
Having said that, my limited attempts to use one resulted in the spring
being dumped in the bin (along with the piece of bent copper pipe into
which it was immovably stuck) so I wouldn't go as far as to recommend
that anyone uses one of the useless sodding things!
I used right angle joints in the end.
Piers
The Tandoor site: http://members.tripod.co.uk/tandoor/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Andrew Gabriel
Richard Beale <Ric...@custardo.co.uk> writes:
>Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to get
>the desired effect for a first timer?
First, the area you are going to bend should be heated very
hot - I hold it over the large burner on gas stove - and
then allow to cool by itself (don't quench it). This undoes
the effects of work hardening which happens during the pipe's
manufacture, making the metal more plastic and less brittle.
Insert the spring and bend the pipe round your knee (I haven't
found anything better). For ease of getting the bending spring
out, bend it a little further than you require and then unbend
it back to the right point. Spring can then be withdrawn;
screwing it in one direction will reduce its diameter making
withdrawal easier. If the spring will be vanishing completely
inside the pipe, attach a good strong cord to the end of it;
occationally I have had to cut the pipe to get the spring out!
You need to use a bending spring which is (to within 10 years)
the same age as the pipe you are bending; the spring is
accurately sized to the inside diameter of copper pipe, and
this increases over the years as they make the pipe wall thinner.
I have two - one bought recently and one bought ~20 years ago,
and they both bend pipe successfully, but if I use the wrong one
on wrong age pipe, the pipe tends to crumple (20 year old pipe
has noticably thicker walls than pipe bought today).
--
Andrew Gabriel
Consultant Software Engineer
mdb
>Richard Beale wrote:
>>Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use
>>one to get the desired effect for a first timer?
>
>will crinkle and possibly split. To use a spring, you need a
>pipe bending tool.
That's not my (limited) experience. But I have found that they
work much better if you heat the pipe with a blow lamp first
(thus annealing it?)
m_d_b
--
In case of emergency, break glass.
Cyril
<Ric...@custardo.co.uk> wrote:
>Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to get
>the desired effect for a first timer?
>
1. Make sure the spring is clean and lubricate before inserting (ooerr
missus!).
2. Overbend slightly then bend back to desired angle - this makes
extraction easier.
3. If the spring is entirely inside the pipe make sure you use some
really strong cord tied to the end to pull it out afterwards or you
might end up with it stuck in there!
Personally I never got on with the springs and bought a proper bending
tool - more expensive but so much easier and worth it, to me anyway.
I've used the tool to bend 180 deg angles which I don't reckon you
could do with a spring.
Cyril
Dave Plowman
<piers_t...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> What's your evidence for this? B&Q warehouse, for example, sell them
> and I would expect them to warn their customers that they're not
> compatible with the copper pipe which is sold next to them. Modern DIY
> books still recommend them.
Since 'Table X' tube became common, they haven't been satisfactory for
anything other than a very slight bend. The 'old' higher purity copper
tube could be bent to a right-angle without problems. I must admit I
haven't tried Andrew's trick of annealing the tube first, but I would find
it far too time consuming for anything other than a 'one-off'
If you are doing a large job like installing a complete heating system,
bite the bullet and get a proper pipe bender for around 60 quid. You will
get the benefit of better and quieter water flow with less risk of leaks.
You would also save money, over compression fittings and perhaps even
Yorkshires, on the average system.
Like many DIY jobs, the correct tool can make life very easy. I've learnt
this by experience, and pass it on for what it's worth. IMHO.
--
* The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *
Richard Yates
Richard Beale <Ric...@custardo.co.uk> wrote:
> Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to
get
> the desired effect for a first timer?
Hi, Richard - I posted on this last year - here is the article:
From: "Richard Yates (aacdehiRrstY)" <r.j....@open.ac.uk>
Subject: Bending copper tube.
Date: 14 Dec 1999 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <38564FC8...@open.ac.uk>
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Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Well, this might be of use. I've had some bad experience of a
"bending spring", not much use, lbooyd frustrating, in fact.
A bender is very superior. However, during the latest Desperate
Battle Under the Sink, I thought I'd try it again. #*?Ł@)) !
Kink. Hell's teeth. Aha!!! A breakthrough! The thing to do is
to anneal the tube before bending. Heat up a section with your
gas torch (6" will do) until it is red hot, then cool it,
and you will be able to form a 2" radius curve easily, no
kinks or ripples.
HTH.
Richard.
--
Aacdehirrsty. Just practicing.
Doesn't, doesn't it know - know? Soon. Tomorrow too, what?
If it was easy, it wouldn't be such marvellously good fun. Yeah, right.
Jon Rouse
>Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to get
>the desired effect for a first timer?
Don't try and bend anything over 15mm until you've practiced a bit. Make
sure the ends of the pipe are free of burrs, insert the spring, and bend the
tube a few inches either side of the halfway point by putting the pipe
around your knee and pulling towards you. If you have skinny knees use a pad
between knee and pipe ar you will be limping for a few days. Don't
concentrate the bend into one point, and over bend a little and then
straighten the pipe out a little, this makes removing the spring a little
easier. Remember to turn the spring anticlockwise to make it smaller as you
pull it out.
A level stuff includes fastening a loop of stiff wire to the end of the
spring so you can put bends further down the pipe, offsets, and tackling
22mm pipe, which is very tough on your knees and pecs.
--
The views expressed are my own, and may not necessarily reflect those of my
employer.
Peter Parry
<Ric...@custardo.co.uk> wrote:
>Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to get
>the desired effect for a first timer?
1. Buy tool.
2. Discover it has no instructions.
3. Buy DIY book on heating.
4. Read instructions.
5. Rip up old bedcover to make bending pads.
6. Lightly oil spring.
7. Discover it won't go into the pipe you cut with your nice new
pipe cutter, you have to use a hacksaw.
8. Insert in pipe.
9. Wipe up blood from cut caused by raw end of pipe using the flux
rag.
10. Discover the flux really is acidic, scream a bit.
11. Bend as instructed.
12. Dislocate kneecap.
13. Push kneecap back in place.
14. Remember to bend a little too far and bend back a touch to ease
tension on spring.
15. Insert tool to rotate spring to remove it.
16. Pull on spring.
17. Knock over cup of tea, stand in flux tin.
18. Swear several times.
19. Tell (without moving teeth apart) wife/partner/neighbour/children
you know what you are doing.
20. Smash knuckles on wall as hand slips from pulling device.
21. Bang pipe on floor several times.
22. Saw off bent bit of pipe. Use vice, angle grinder, several mole
grips and welding torch to recover pipe bender.
23. Repeat steps 6 to 22 until the pain and loss of blood gets too
much or you run out of pipe.
24. Throw away now mangled pipe spring (or use as garden gate
closer).
25. Buy a proper bending tool.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk
Jon Rouse
> Since 'Table X' tube became common, they haven't been satisfactory for
>anything other than a very slight bend. The 'old' higher purity copper
>tube could be bent to a right-angle without problems. I must admit I
>haven't tried Andrew's trick of annealing the tube first, but I would find
>it far too time consuming for anything other than a 'one-off'
The only time I have ever had to anneal copper pipe was when the copper
works had a strike in the 70s and we had to use imported foreign stuff, but
that snapped when you tried to bend it (I still come across a piece from
time to time in my spares box, but most of it has been annealed by now).
Apart from that I've never had any trouble with bending 15mm and 22mm pipe
with a spring, and I've done some quite artistic constructions in my time.
Mungo Henning
piers_t...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Having said that, my limited attempts to use one resulted in the spring
> being dumped in the bin (along with the piece of bent copper pipe into
> which it was immovably stuck) so I wouldn't go as far as to recommend
> that anyone uses one of the useless sodding things!
Similar experience with regard to the spring (I'm on to my second spring
now,
and this time it is lightly lubricated).
> I used right angle joints in the end.
Methinks there is less resistance for water to follow a curve than an
abrupt
90 degree turn, hence I'd consider it "better" for curves than elbow
joints.
However, with all the hassle of bending the pipes and then swearing, and
then
unbending them, and then trying to extract the spring I suggest that use of
a
bending spring be restricted to particular occassions!
Having to install deflection in 22mm pipes a few weeks ago, I chickened out
an
bought two 135 degree yorkshire fittings.
Incidentally, I noticed in a catalogue that you can buy a sort-of "elbow"
connector
which has 3 sockets, the third one at right angles to the plane of the
other two!
Now that would have been useful for certain joints I've sworn at.
Mungo
--
Mungo Henning - it's a daft name but it goes with the face...
mungoh@itacs.strath.ac.uk.http://www.itacs.strath.ac.uk/
I speak for me, not my employer.
Bignell Surgical Instruments
<piers_t...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:85kbu6$nir$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Having said that, my limited attempts to use one resulted in the spring
> being dumped in the bin (along with the piece of bent copper pipe into
> which it was immovably stuck)
Did you lubricate the outside of the spring so that it would be easier to
remove after bending?
Colin Bignell
tim.downie
Dave Plowman <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:497f796568...@argonet.co.uk...
> In article <B4A2C500.2594%Ric...@custardo.co.uk>,
> Richard Beale <Ric...@custardo.co.uk> wrote:
> > Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to
get
> > the desired effect for a first timer?
>
> crinkle and possibly split. To use a spring, you need a different type of
> copper tube - very expensive. Use a proper pipe bending tool.
Whilst a proper pipe bending tool is no doubt better, I've had no problems
with the internal spring type for occasional use. I've never deliberately
sourced special copper pipe so I don't think it's down to the pipe that I've
used.
With the internal spring type of pipe bender it's important that you
"deburr" the end of the pipe that you hope to remove the spring from. Most
pipe cutters to a greater or lesser extent curl the edges of the cut inwards
and this will make the spring difficult or impossible to insert or remove.
Some cutters have an integral deburring tool but there are plenty of special
tools available to make the job easier.
It's a good idea to make sure that the bend is not too far from the end of
the pipe or you won't have much spring to hold onto when it's time to
extract it. My spring has a small loop at on end that you can attach a bit
of wire/rope etc. if you wish to insert it deeper into the pipe. Most books
recommend lightly greasing the spring to aid removal. Whilst it will no
doubt help, I have managed without and it means I don't have to put up with
a greasy spring in my tool box.
Don't try and be overly ambitious in the radius of your bends. Bending the
pipe over one's knee gives about the tightest radius that you can do without
crinkling etc. Annealing the pipe first with a blow torch will make it
easier to bend but I've never actually done this so I can't really comment.
Lastly, if your spring does jam, twist it in the direction that winds the
spring up more tightly (clockwise IIRC). This reduces the effective
diameter of the spring making it easier to extract.
Tim
Dave Plowman
tim.downie <tim.d...@newscientist.net> wrote:
> Whilst a proper pipe bending tool is no doubt better, I've had no
> problems with the internal spring type for occasional use. I've never
> deliberately sourced special copper pipe so I don't think it's down to
> the pipe that I've used.
Perhaps then the 'quality' of tube is better than when I last tried it.
The nasty crinkly inner radius was such that I'd have been ashamed for it
to be seen. I bought a Record pipe bender, and of course, there is no need
for a spring anymore - that I've found. Still got a couple lying around
though.
--
* How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink? *
Richard Yates
and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
> First, the area you are going to bend should be heated very
> hot - I hold it over the large burner on gas stove - and
> then allow to cool by itself (don't quench it).
Quenching doesn't make much difference, except that the
black oxide comes off more easily. You may have to re-
anneal (please remove your spring before you do this!)
if you are doing a really tight bend.
Richard.
--
Aacdehirrsty. Still practicing.
Doesn't, doesn't it know - know? Soon. Tomorrow too, what?
Roger Chapman
from and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) contains these words:
> hold it over the large burner on gas stove - and
> then allow to cool by itself (don't quench it). This undoes
> the effects of work hardening which happens during the pipe's
> manufacture, making the metal more plastic and less brittle.
Are you sure? I thought copper (unlike steel) cannot be hardened by quenching.
Incidentally my 15mm spring now has a pronounced kink in it following
a pipe snapping when I tried to make too tight a bend. I still use it
but now work the pipe round my knee as I pull to try and make a more
gentle bend.
Roger
Dave Liquorice
> They are *not* designed to be used on modern copper tube - it will
> crinkle and possibly split.
Care to elaborate? I've not heard of that before.
As for tips. Lightly grease the spring. Twist it clockwise to insert or
withdraw. If you need to insert it such that only a bit sticks out of the
tube tied a bit of strong string to the loop. Use only a steady gentle
pressure, don't rush at producing the bend.
--
Cheers new...@nexus.demon.co.uk
Dave. Remove "spam" for valid email.
John Laird
<pe...@wppltd.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:55:44 +0000, Richard Beale
><Ric...@custardo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to get
>>the desired effect for a first timer?
>
>1. Buy tool.
>(23 more gems snipped)
>25. Buy a proper bending tool.
What happened to:
26. Get a proper man in to do it.
??
Steve Taylor
Jon Rouse wrote:
> Richard Beale wrote in message ...
> >Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to get
> >the desired effect for a first timer?
>
> Don't try and bend anything over 15mm until you've practiced a bit. Make
> sure the ends of the pipe are free of burrs, insert the spring, and bend the
> tube a few inches either side of the halfway point by putting the pipe
> around your knee and pulling towards you. If you have skinny knees use a pad
> between knee and pipe ar you will be limping for a few days. Don't
> concentrate the bend into one point, and over bend a little and then
> straighten the pipe out a little, this makes removing the spring a little
> easier. Remember to turn the spring anticlockwise to make it smaller as you
> pull it out.
>
> A level stuff includes fastening a loop of stiff wire to the end of the
> spring so you can put bends further down the pipe, offsets, and tackling
> 22mm pipe, which is very tough on your knees and pecs.
>
> --
...Use a bloody great block of wood( 100x 50 x 1000mm is about right), with a
15mm hole or 22mm hole in it, round the edge of the holes so that the edges
don't
kink the pipe.Now use the length of the pipe and the BGBW as levers to bend the
pipe. bend short sections a little bit, then go back and improve them til the
angle is OK. Bend back a little bit to get your spring out.
...Don't tie your spring to a piece of wire with a knot. Use stranded wire cable
and put the spring in the middle of a doubled back length. Loops don't undo,
leaving a spring stranded in the middle of the $%^&* pipe....
Annealing is good. Quenching it afterwards won't harden it again. Only work
will reharden copper or aluminium.
Steve
Ed Sirett
small job like replacing an electric shower (pipes almost always have to be
reworked).
Ed Sirett
Property Maintainer - North London.
Ed Sirett
John Laird wrote in message <387e16c1...@news.freeserve.net>...
>On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:50:09 +0000, Peter Parry
><pe...@wppltd.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:55:44 +0000, Richard Beale
>><Ric...@custardo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>the desired effect for a first timer?
>>
>>(23 more gems snipped)
>>25. Buy a proper bending tool.
>
>What happened to:
>26. Get a proper man in to do it.
Having bought and used the right tool _you_ are now the proper man.
a.guz...@virgin.net
<Ric...@custardo.co.uk> wrote:
>Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to get
>the desired effect for a first timer?
>
>Thank you.
>Richard
>
>
Well, since no-one else has mentioned this - I got the Warehouse
Direct catalogue throught he post this morning. They list three pipe
bending tools;
(1) DIY at ukp6.99
(2) Light Industrial at ukp22.99
(3) Pro at ukp55.99
1 and 2 only do 15mm pipe - 3 does 15mm and 22mm.
From the pictures these are all of the type referred to elsewhere in
the thread as proper pipe bending tools. I obviously cannot vouch for
their quality - I wouldn't expect much from (1) at ukp6.99, but I
wonder whether (2) would be ok for occasional use.
Dave
---------------------
David Shepherd
a.guz...@virgin.net
ICQ 33233703
Richard Beale
Thank you to all for the input on this one. When I first tried to bend I did
it from cold - the task seemed impossible. Now I have learned that you have
to heat the pipe I can't believe how easy it is. If only the instructions
mentioned heating the pipe, a pretty vital bit of information.
Last night my Bending Spring was going in the bin - tonight it's sleeping
with me.
Thank you again.
Richard
John
Dave Plowman <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:497f796568...@argonet.co.uk...
> In article <B4A2C500.2594%Ric...@custardo.co.uk>,
> Richard Beale <Ric...@custardo.co.uk> wrote:
get
> > the desired effect for a first timer?
>
> copper tube - very expensive. Use a proper pipe bending tool.
>
I disagree - you do however need to practice extensively to learn how much
you can bend Table X without crinkling it. Don't expect to pull a tight
radius but there again if you need such a tight bend you are talking elbows
anyway
John
> > crinkle and possibly split. To use a spring, you need a different
> type of
> > copper tube - very expensive.
>
> and I would expect them to warn their customers that they're not
> compatible with the copper pipe which is sold next to them.
LOL ROTFLMAO
And the Earth is flat!
tim.downie
Roger Chapman <r.ch...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:200001131...@zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <85k8a3$1...@cucumber.demon.co.uk>
> from and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) contains these words:
>
> > hold it over the large burner on gas stove - and
> > then allow to cool by itself (don't quench it). This undoes
> > the effects of work hardening which happens during the pipe's
> > manufacture, making the metal more plastic and less brittle.
>
> Are you sure? I thought copper (unlike steel) cannot be hardened by
quenching
I remember making a candle holder in metalwork classes in school. (Oh what
joy it is to have something in common with Paul Merton! <g>) Before we did
anything to the copper that we were using, we heated it as described to make
it more malleable. It definitely made a difference.
Tim
Steve Taylor
Richard Beale wrote:
>
> Last night my Bending Spring was going in the bin - tonight it's sleeping
> with me.
Wooh, Kinky, but only if you pull it wrong.
--
Steve Taylor
Technical Director, Ravenfield Designs Ltd.
mailto:st...@ravenfield.com or mailto:smta...@IEE.org
http://www.ravenfield.com
Stuart Grant
> out, bend it a little further than you require and then unbend
> it back to the right point.
>
the pipe tightens it on the spring - that's why the spring is used, to
keep the pipe pipe-shaped. Un-bending it slackens it again, so overbend
slightly (I found my thigh more comfortable than my knee) and
straighten to the required angle. Bend a bit at a time and check for
kinks appearing as you go. Stop at the first sign of kinking,
straighten or tap it down with a ball pein and remove the spring. That
bit of tube is then u/s for bending with a spring.
Stuart Grant
Dave Plowman
John <jo...@ASboilerdoc.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I disagree - you do however need to practice extensively to learn how
> much you can bend Table X without crinkling it. Don't expect to pull a
> tight radius but there again if you need such a tight bend you are
> talking elbows anyway
I'll certainly have a go again with some spare tube to see if things have
changed, but many of the standard bends you would need to do with a radius
of say 4-6 inches to go under a floor from a vertical run I found
impossible with table X, but worked OK with old tube.
--
* For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism *
Roger Chapman
60s I once watched a switchgear* development fitter put a rightangle
bend in a half inch copper pipe using only a gas torch and a vice.
(It never worked so well when I tried it. :-( )
*That's switchgear as in heavy duty air blast, CEGB for the use of,
on the National Grid.
Roger
Cyril
>> For ease of getting the bending spring
>> out, bend it a little further than you require and then unbend
>> it back to the right point.
>>
>I was beginning to wonder if anyone was going to suggest this.
I did!
Cyril
David Pearson
>From: "tim.downie" <tim.d...@newscientist.net>
>Subject: Re: Plumbers Tool (Bending Spring)
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:41:49 -0000
IIRC[1] annealing copper is simply a question of heating it up until it is red
hot and quenching it in water. Aluminium melts before it reaches red heat -
if you scribble on it with a bit of old soap and then heat it until the soap
turns black that's hot enough, then quench it. Steel needs to be heated
to red heat and then allowed to cool as slowly as possible to get maximum
softness.
[1] GCE Metalwork, some years ago...
Dave
--
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
- Albert Einstein
andy the pugh
Gabriel) wrote:
>First, the area you are going to bend should be heated very
>hot - I hold it over the large burner on gas stove - and
>then allow to cool by itself (don't quench it)
You can quench it if you want, it makes no difference with copper as
there is no phase transformation on cooling.
As long as you get it hot it doesn't matter what rate it cools at.
Andy Woodward
Correect
Roger Chapman
from "tim.downie" <tim.d...@newscientist.net> contains these words:
>>> hold it over the large burner on gas stove - and
>>> then allow to cool by itself (don't quench it). This undoes
>>> the effects of work hardening which happens during the pipe's
>>> manufacture, making the metal more plastic and less brittle.
>> Are you sure? I thought copper (unlike steel) cannot be hardened by
>> quenching
> I remember making a candle holder in metalwork classes in school. (Oh
> what joy it is to have something in common with Paul Merton! <g>)
> Before we did anything to the copper that we were using, we heated it as
> described to make it more malleable. It definitely made a difference.
Copper work hardens when deformed but can be annealed (softened) by
heating it to a high temperature. The point was whether sudden
cooling would harden it again.
Roger
Paul Mc Cann
pe...@wppltd.demon.co.uk says...
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:55:44 +0000, Richard Beale
> <Ric...@custardo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Would anyone be able to explain and provide tips on how to use one to get
> >the desired effect for a first timer?
>
> 24. Throw away now mangled pipe spring (or use as garden gate
> closer).
> 25. Buy a proper bending tool.
>
>
>
or
25. Use PLASTIC pipe. Much easier. No problems with bending. Connections
are a push fit.
Or am I missing summat ?
--
Paul Mc Cann
Andy Wade
> You can quench it if you want, it makes no difference with copper as
> there is no phase transformation on cooling.
> As long as you get it hot it doesn't matter what rate it cools at.
Quenching ('pickling') in dilute sulphuric acid is traditional, for copper
or gilding metal. This removes the oxide scale, and leaves a surface
which cleans up easily. Take care.
--
Andy
Stuart Grant
>
But Andrew was first so he gets the gold star:-)
Stuart