Smallest sized combi
timegoesby
that the Hepworth Icon 23T is H 700 x D 300 x W 400. That will do me in
size, any bigger and I will have problems.
Does anyone know of a smaller combi size? My limits are no more than
300mm deep and 400mm wide, the hieght doesn't matter.
thanks
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Colin
Hepworth - but this is a 27Kw boiler..
check: http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/road/zp57/products.htm
they have all the manuals downloadable
regards
Colin
timegoesby <timeg...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8seium$28t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
timegoesby
Thank you. Yes the Micro Genus has a 27 kW version which has a 11.5
litres/min flow rate compared to 9.5 for the Hepworth Icon. A 11.5
Helpworth Icon has a larger casing of H 802 W 410 D 378 whicj is too
big for me.
The Hepworths are well functioned and not expensive and has been
mentioned in other emails, a stainless steel heat exchanger. The 27kW
Ariston appears the fav for me at the mo'. What is the likely price I
am to pay for a 27 kW Ariston? Does the bath fill up well with 11.5
litres/min? Is it worth the extra over the 9.5 litre/min 23 kW model?
Does the Ariston have a fully modulating burner? I can't fathom this
out from their installation and user instructions.
I like the LED temperature display on the front and that it, user
selectable, preheats the DHW heat exchanger for more instant hot water.
Does that make a difference?
This looks like a very good boiler. Nice to hear from a user. I would
like you thoughts on the above points as I'm sure others would also.
thanks
Adam
"Colin" <no...@none.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fGAG5.3325$6N2.1...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
> I have just fitted an Ariston Micro Genus 27Kw combi - sizes are same as
the
> Hepworth - but this is a 27Kw boiler..
>
> check: http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/road/zp57/products.htm
>
> they have all the manuals downloadable
Colin,
The Micro Genus is a quality boiler. It uses an electric diverter valve as
most quality combis's do these days. The electric valve can be used to
divert hot water to the plate heat-exchanger to pre-heat it to reduce the 40
second from cold lag.
Good choice and quite small. I saw the 23 kW version for £435 + VAT. Great
price for such a well specced boiler. It also has a auto pressure
differential valve.
Having 27kW is such a small case is superb. They have a built-in LCD timer.
IMHO, I would disengage this and use an optimiser programmable thermostat
with anti-cycle, etc.
Colin
water demand. I think I paid £550 + vat, the flue cost me another £200
odd... - in my case it goes through the roof, so your installation could
well be cheaper (commented on another thread re. combis)
It's being commissioned tonight - so can't comment yet on performance!!
however, in my previous home I had a Vokera with similar H/W flow rates -
and the shower was fantastic. Didn't run a lot of baths, but I didn't have
too many complaints from the rest of the household. Also the Vokera didn't
have pre-heat, so I'll be interested too in how quickly the hot water comes
through (was a while with the Vokera)
As Adam says it has an auto pressure differential valve (bypass), frost
thermostat and timer built in. The timer looks a bit mickey-mouse (no key
required to wind it up!!) - and I'm fitting a combined room thermostat /
timer separately. Which leads me to another question - which I'll ask in
another thread.
Cheers
Colin
timegoesby <timeg...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8sf286$e2k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Colin,
>
> Thank you. Yes the Micro Genus has a 27 kW version which has a 11.5
> litres/min flow rate compared to 9.5 for the Hepworth Icon. A 11.5
> Helpworth Icon has a larger casing of H 802 W 410 D 378 whicj is too
> big for me.
>
> The Hepworths are well functioned and not expensive and has been
> mentioned in other emails, a stainless steel heat exchanger. The 27kW
> Ariston appears the fav for me at the mo'. What is the likely price I
> am to pay for a 27 kW Ariston? Does the bath fill up well with 11.5
> litres/min? Is it worth the extra over the 9.5 litre/min 23 kW model?
>
> Does the Ariston have a fully modulating burner? I can't fathom this
> out from their installation and user instructions.
>
> I like the LED temperature display on the front and that it, user
> selectable, preheats the DHW heat exchanger for more instant hot water.
> Does that make a difference?
>
> This looks like a very good boiler. Nice to hear from a user. I would
> like you thoughts on the above points as I'm sure others would also.
>
> thanks
>
> > I have just fitted an Ariston Micro Genus 27Kw combi -
> > sizes are same as the Hepworth - but this is a 27Kw boiler..
> >
> > check: http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/road/zp57/products.htm
> >
> > they have all the manuals downloadable
> >
timegoesby
that heat for CH. Does the burner modulate down for heating to avoid
cycling. The programmer thermostat sounds good and the Honeywell one
highlighted by Adam and Tony sounds a good bet. Is the flue kit extra
on the basic models? You have an extention so extra cost. Before I came
on this group I wouldn't have known anything to have asked such
questions. I can ring up dealers and talk sense to them now. Boy I feel
proud.
thanks
Colin
Flue kit is extra, approx 20-30 quid for straight through back of wall
mounting.
Major dissapointment last night... Completed the plumbing, filled everything
up, drained, filled up, drained, filled up again (existing system dirty /
black water). Completed gas connection. Turned on gas meter. Went to purge
gas pipe - nothing - no gas...
Thought I must have tripped out the street or something, bit worried about
it... Transco came out this morning, and reset a trip in my meter - no
problems. We are the only houses in the area that run off a high pressure
main - which means special regulators in the meter box (looks complex!)
which has a trip fitted. This is sealed so only Transco can reset it. I need
to turn on the main gas tap slowly (he said slower than slow) to prevent a
trip until the pipe is pressurised. You live and learn - and I thought I
could be in for a lot of s**t... So tonight is commissioning night - getting
cold up here in Scotland...
If you go for the MicroGenus boiler, couple of things to watch for:
Check all the connections on the pre-assembled pipe coupling unit are tight.
It has a built in fill loop - the connections on my one were not tight and
leaked when I began to fill up - easier to tighten before you fit it all
together.
On the first fill of the system I set the service taps to isolate the
boiler. I was waiting for the pressure meter to get up to 1 bar so I could
check for any leaks. The water ran into the system then stopped... I had
filled it up to mains pressure!! Obviously (in hindsight!) the pressure
meter is isolated with the boiler by the valves I had closed... Thankfully
nothing leaked, even at that pressure...
Cheers
Colin
timegoesby <timeg...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8sfa88$l9m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Colin
27kW model)
Also has anti-cycling control adjustable between 0 and 2 minutes
Had a shower at lunchtime!! fantastic... Let me know if you want any further
details
regards
Colin
Colin <no...@none.co.uk> wrote in message
news:QPUG5.10260$6N2.1...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
Nell McAndrew
> I didn't need the 27kW model for heat (radiator) output - I chose it for
hot
> water demand. I think I paid £550 + vat, the flue cost me another £200
> odd... - in my case it goes through the roof, so your installation could
> well be cheaper (commented on another thread re. combis)
>
I cannot find this boiler either at the plumbcenter or at
discountedheating.co.uk
Does anyone have any experience of the two above and can anyone recommend
other retailers.
Adam
news:8siit2$2mi$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
That depends on where you live. Look at the web site Colin gave. It gives
the Ariston distribution centres. Ariston have service/distribution centres
in about 6 or 7 locations in the UK. I saw one for sale in a heating shop
in the local High Street.
The boiler is small, well priced, well specced and of a decent reputation
for reliability. Worth getting if space is a problem. It also has an
anti-scale function; the heat exchanger temp is kept below a temp that
promotes scale. It comes with a filler loop. Once you have the boiler and
flue there is only the room stat that is extra. The boiler was only
introduced about 9 months ago.
Try the discount heating places in the Exchange & Mart. Just give them a
ring. I tried Ultimate Heating. They don't have it on their list but will
give price if seriously interested.
timegoesby
"Colin" <no...@none.co.uk> wrote:
> The microgenus is fully modulating between 12 - 29.8kW (input rating
for
> 27kW model)
>
> Also has anti-cycling control adjustable between 0 and 2 minutes
>
> Had a shower at lunchtime!! fantastic... Let me know if you want any
further
> details
Colin,
The obvious. How long was it in the fast DHW mode before hot water hit
the taps? Also how long does it take to fill a bth up? That is mixing
hot and cold water suitable for getting in.
A techie question. How does the boiler know when to modulate down the
burner when there is only a thermostat on the wall? I though there
would have to be a sensor not a room thermostsat? Curious. I've been
doing some reading.
And another point. Is it noisy?
Thanks and sounds as if you are very clean.
Colin
> the taps? Also how long does it take to fill a bth up? That is mixing
> hot and cold water suitable for getting in.
Seemed to be very short delay for hot water through - but I have the boiler
centrally located in the house, and changed all the old 22mm to 15mm for hot
water.. I guess as the boiler pre-heats DHW, it is as quick through as it
would be from a tank (in the same position) - perhaps slightly quicker with
15mm pipe...
I'll time a bath tonight..
>
> A techie question. How does the boiler know when to modulate down the
> burner when there is only a thermostat on the wall? I though there
> would have to be a sensor not a room thermostsat? Curious. I've been
> doing some reading.
Think it's dependant on the flow and return water temperatures for heating,
and flow for hot water (otherwise, on a very light flow of hot water, it
would probably boil it !!)
>
> And another point. Is it noisy?
nope, sits in a cupboard through a partition wall from my lounge - and I
can't hear it from there
regards
Colin
Colin
price.
This was from City Plumbing, National chain
Check http://www.cityplumbing.co.uk
for your local outlet
regards, Colin
Adam
The Ferroli Modena at 12.2 litres/min is just over £500 inc VAT at
http://www.cityplumbing.co.uk. That's a brilliant deal. The Modena and
Domina don't have 3-way valves making them much more reliable.
Both Micro Genus models and Hepworth Icon 23T are the smallest casing
boilers around.
"Colin" <no...@none.co.uk> wrote in message
news:M4eH5.23451$6N2.2...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
timegoesby
"Colin" <no...@none.co.uk> wrote:
> > The obvious. How long was it in the fast DHW mode before hot water
hit
> > the taps? Also how long does it take to fill a bth up? That is
mixing
> > hot and cold water suitable for getting in.
>
boiler
> centrally located in the house, and changed all the old 22mm to 15mm
for hot
> water.. I guess as the boiler pre-heats DHW, it is as quick through
as it
> would be from a tank (in the same position) - perhaps slightly
quicker with
> 15mm pipe...
>
> I'll time a bath tonight..
Colin,
How long did it take to fill the bath?
> > And another point. Is it noisy?
>
> nope, sits in a cupboard through a
> partition wall from my lounge - and I
> can't hear it from there
Is it noisy if fitted insode a room?
thanks again.
Colin
filling!!
I don't think the noise would be obtrusive in a room - perhaps the same sort
of noise level as a dishwasher? Don't think I would put it in a lounge
though...
regards
Colin
timegoesby <timeg...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8smhiv$li7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <sKdH5.22203$6N2.2...@monolith.news.easynet.net>,
> "Colin" <no...@none.co.uk> wrote:
> > > The obvious. How long was it in the fast DHW mode before hot water
> hit
> > > the taps? Also how long does it take to fill a bth up? That is
> mixing
> > > hot and cold water suitable for getting in.
> >
> > Seemed to be very short delay for hot water through - but I have the
> boiler
> > centrally located in the house, and changed all the old 22mm to 15mm
> for hot
> > water.. I guess as the boiler pre-heats DHW, it is as quick through
> as it
> > would be from a tank (in the same position) - perhaps slightly
> quicker with
> > 15mm pipe...
> >
> > I'll time a bath tonight..
>
> Colin,
>
> How long did it take to fill the bath?
>
> > > And another point. Is it noisy?
> >
> > nope, sits in a cupboard through a
> > partition wall from my lounge - and I
> > can't hear it from there
>
> Is it noisy if fitted insode a room?
>
> thanks again.
>
>
Adam
"Nell McAndrew" <ne...@mcandrew.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8siit2$2mi$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Colin" <no...@none.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:soFG5.3387$6N2.1...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
> > I didn't need the 27kW model for heat (radiator) output - I chose it for
> hot
> > water demand. I think I paid £550 + vat, the flue cost me another £200
> > odd... - in my case it goes through the roof, so your installation could
> > well be cheaper (commented on another thread re. combis)
> >
>
> I cannot find this boiler either at the plumbcenter or at
> discountedheating.co.uk
>
> Does anyone have any experience of the two above
> and can anyone recommend other retailers.
I was walking past the local heating/plumber dealers (mainly the trade use
the place). they had a large poster in the window of the Ariston Micro
Genus. They had a price list for about 10 combis in the window. I went
asked about prices for both Ariston models and the Ferroli 102 Modena (12.2
litres/min).
They said their biggest seller is the Micro Genus. It comes complete with
everything: clock, filling loop, anti-scale. hot water pre-heat and is the
smallest boiler around in size, (along with the Hepworth Icon 23T from
travis perkins). For over 12 litres/min flow rate it "is" the smallest
boiler. Their prices were about £20 more than the big discount places which
is not bad at all. It looks well laid out and all parts are accessible
without taking it off the wall. The 3-way valve is electric so the motor is
easily replaceable, unlike water pressure 3-way valves which tend to need a
full expensive replacement.
They said the Ferroli Modena sells well with DIYers, and the trade, as it
does not have a 3-way valve, so is more reliable. It is reasonably small
too. The DHW works even if the pump fails, which is a Grundfos, as most are
these days. The burner modulation control is excellent too. They said the
Ferroli Domina sells well to DIYers too. The flue does not come out the top
of the casing giving that odd look, it goes straight out the back of the
boiler giving a nice square look to it when next to kitchen cupboards. The
Dominina does not have a 3-way valve either, being a Modena with a rear
flue. It runs on a water pressure of 0.1 bar, the lowest of any boiler - so
basically water in and it works.
I would go for Ferroli Modena 102 for its simplicity and reliability and
excellent burner control, and if space is a problem then the Micro Genus
27kW. Both about 12. 2 litres/min. The Ferroli's don't have pre-heating
that is the only disadvantage of not having a 3-way electric valve.
Personally that would not bother me.
I hope this helps.
Nell McAndrew
I would like to thank Adam and Colin for their time during this thread
I have still to decide which boiler but i know alot more than i did.
I only have 5 rads so i presume heating power is not an issue?
I need to know more about water flow. I only have one bath a year
(hyperbole) so i am not concerned if it takes two minutes more to fill a
bath. What i am concerned with is how fast the water is for a shower.
I will be fitting a new bathroom soon and my choice of shower will be
dependant on the boiler i choose. I have seen a Combi compatible shower
mixer giving 8LPM.
If this is the case will the min 9.5LPM boilers be sufficient? Also is 8LPM
satisfactory? I could choose an electric or power at 12LPM or 16LPM?
I know Adam before saying that its not worth putting an electric shower in
when you have a Combi, but if say the prices between a mixer and electric
similar would it not be a backup solution for hot water? otherwise i would
have to invest in (don;t know what) something else for hot water backup that
could cost more than the shower.
If a boiler has a LPM of 18 does this mean that if two taps are running then
both get 9LPM? thereby not affecting the performance of a 8LPM shower?
therefore anything under 18LPM would affect the performance of a shower so a
min of 9.5 would be sufficient. (there is only me and girlie in house) and
the effects would be the same as it is now if someone were showering and
someone turned on a tap it becomes so hot and unable to stop under shower?
I like the idea of fairly instant hot water but we are not on a meter so not
important and i would say it takes about 40 secs to get hot from system we
have now so i won;t notice much difference.
A little unsure when you go on about a 3 way valve and reliability, do they
often fail? and what is the downside to this? does it affect the system to
stop any part working?
Also Colin can you let me have the dimensions of your boiler, i have looked
at the manual from the link you posted but i can't find it.
TIA
Nell McAndrew
looked
> at the manual from the link you posted but i can't find it.
>
Adam
>
> I would like to thank Adam and Colin for their
> time during this thread
>
> I have still to decide which boiler but i know a
> lot more than i did.
>
> I only have 5 rads so i presume heating power
> is not an issue?
The smallest combi can heat 4 bedroomed detached house.
> I need to know more about water flow. I only
> have one bath a year (hyperbole) so i am not
> concerned if it takes two minutes more to fill a
> bath. What i am concerned with is how fast the
> water is for a shower.
>
> I will be fitting a new bathroom soon and my
> choice of shower will be dependant on the boiler
> i choose. I have seen a Combi compatible shower
> mixer giving 8LPM.
>
> If this is the case will the min 9.5LPM boilers be
> sufficient? Also is 8LPM satisfactory? I could
> choose an electric or power at 12LPM or 16LPM?
8 l/m is sufficient. It is not the flow that gives a power shower
sensation, it is the pressure of the water against your skin that does it.
Most normal mixers can give far more than 8 litres/min.
It appears the smaller boilers (9.5 l/m) will do for you.
> I know Adam before saying that its not worth putting
> an electric shower in when you have a Combi, but if
> say the prices between a mixer and electric
> similar would it not be a backup solution for hot water?
1) Electric showers are generally less effective than normal mixers off a
combi.
2) They cost over 4 times more to run. This will add up over time.
3) You are adding another level of complexity to the system that can go
wrong with expensive repairs etc.
4) Electric generally don't perform as well as normal mixers (the control
is usually poor especially after a few years of use).
5) Electric showers look naff with those plastic cases.
> otherwise i would have to invest in (don;t know what) something
> else for hot water backup that could cost more than the shower.
Minimise the risk of any combi down time by getting a boiler that is less
complex and a good reputation. I would go for the Ferroli Modena. Cheap
enough and very reliable with no 3-way valve. As I have mentioned, even if
the pump fails (one of the most replaced parts in a boiler) the hot water
still works.
Also, if you put in a cylinder, for backup inimmesion is foitted. There is
the cost of the immersion and wiring too.
If back-up hot water is real issue for you, an in-line instant electric
heater can be fitted for back-up in the pipe from the combi to the bathroom.
then all taps can work (only one at a time). QVS have them for around £100
on their web site.
> If a boiler has a LPM of 18 does this mean that if
> two taps are running then both get 9LPM? thereby
> not affecting the performance of a 8LPM shower?
Essentially yes.
> therefore anything under 18LPM would affect
> the performance of a shower so a min of 9.5
> would be sufficient. (there is only me and girlie
> in house) and the effects would be the same
> as it is now if someone were showering and
> someone turned on a tap it becomes so hot
> and unable to stop under shower?
I would "personally" go for the 11.2 plus l/m flowrated Microgenus or
Ferroli Modena. They may cost £30-40-50 more or whatever. That is not a
lot when you consider these boilers would be in service for 20 years. That
extra would give you a comfort feeling in that if you are in the shower and
the girlie turns on the kitchen tap then the effects would be so minimal you
would hardly notice it.
> I like the idea of fairly instant hot water but we
> are not on a meter so not important and i would
> say it takes about 40 secs to get hot from system we
> have now so i won;t notice much difference.
Combi's are cheaper to run as there are no cylinder standing losses. They
also generally superior burner modulation controls matching the input more
closely to the output.
> A little unsure when you go on about a 3 way
> valve and reliability, do they often fail?
No they don't. Combi's are a lot more reliable than the earlier versions.
The water activated 3-ways are expensive to replace. Usually the boiler has
to come off the wall. the Microgenus has an electric 3-way. If the motor
goes the head is replaced and is a simple job. The Ferroli doesn't have one
at all as they have a purpose designed heat-exchanger to cope. A 3-way
valve may fail 6 months after the guarantee has expired (these things
happen), with an expensive replacement charge. It is just minimising the
risks of breakdown by buying better designed kit. Just as you assess a car.
The VW Beetle sold because of its reliability. There nothing else going for
it, they weren't even cheap to buy.
The Microgenus and the Ferroli's are both well laid out boilers with
maintenance access very easy. They are obviously designed for ease of
maintenance and fitting, unlike those useless Ravenheats.
> and what is the downside to this? does it affect
> the system to stop any part working?
Generally if one fails the system doesn't work, or maybe the CH will and not
the DHW or both will partially run. It all depends on how the combi is
designed, they are not all the same in operational design.
You can order the bumph of both boilers from their web sites.
http://www.ferroli.co.uk. Certainly Ariston you can. Get the details of
the Ferroli Domina as well. This is essentially a small flowrate Modena
that has the flue going directly out the back, so no flue pipe seen above
the casing.
BTW, Ariston give a 2 year guarantee and 5 yeas on the plate heat exchanger.
I would still go for the Ferroli Modena 102 for its simplicity, potential
reliability and comfort feeling in the flowrate. If size is vital then a
27kW Microgenus. That's my view on a one bathroom house anyway.
Best of luck
timegoesby
Thanks Nell, Colin and Adam. I find this thread interesting along with
the combi v conventional thread. I'm sold on combi's with many of the
old wives tales about them being dissolved on this forum. Adam, what
model, or models, do you recommend for two bathrooms? That may be an
option for me. I liked your reply to Rick in the combi v conventional
thread.
Nell was suggesting 19 l/m flow rates to avoid showers being efected
from other taps. Is that high a rate really needed?
thanks
Adam
>
> Thanks Nell, Colin and Adam. I find this thread interesting
> along with the combi v conventional thread. I'm sold on
> combi's with many of the old wives tales about them being
> dissolved on this forum. Adam, what model, or models,
> do you recommend for two bathrooms? That may be an
> option for me. I liked your reply to Rick in the combi v
> conventional thread.
>
> Nell was suggesting 19 l/m flow rates to avoid showers
> being efected from other taps. Is that high a rate really
> needed?
Two bathrooms? Any high flow model will do. Vokera and Worcester and others
have standard washing machine sized high flow rated combi's, fitting into
your kitchen or utility room easily. Ariston do a wall mounted combi that
users an integral unvented cylinder and gives 19 litres/minute for about
£950, the . This model needs to be fitted by an approved BBA installer, so
no DIY. I'm not sure of the guarantee or insurance problems if not fitted by
a BBA man. The majority of two bathroom models use stored water to heat the
incoming cold mains water. For e.g., heat-bank: Vokera & Worcester, etc.
Integral unvented cylinder: Ariston, Sogno, etc.
Most high flowrated two bathroom combi's are around the £1,000 mark, with
many quite a few hundred pounds over. That is still cheaper than a hefty
system boiler and a large cylinder and you don't have to accommodate the
"large" two bathroom cylinder. And of course few standing losses.
If you are zoning the house to upstairs and downstairs zones then two zone
valves need to be bought with a thermostat for each zone and programmer to
time each zone. Better still a thermostat/programmer. The Honeywell CM67
can have a temp sensor in the room and the controller body in a more
convenient place. Remote senor is extra.
A scenario: 2 bathrooms, 2 heating zones.
I would seriously consider buying "two" combi's, yes "two", one for each
zone and bathroom. The cost of combi's has plummeted as the production has
geared up for them (they are cheaper than many similar output system
boilers).
If a two bathroom combi is going to cosy you around £1,000 plus the zone
valves and programmers then you are talking around £1,100 - 1,200. The
Ariston Microgenus can be have for around £500. This boiler is the smallest
around and is foolproof in that it comes with:
1) Filling loop.
2) Boiler anti-cycle.
3) Anti-frost
4) Timeclock
5) Built-in differential pressure by-pass.
6) Modulating burner
7) User selectable DHW pre-heat to prevent the cold water lag.
8) Comes in 9.5 and 11.4 litres/min flowrates
The boiler is easy to fit a great for DIYers. Buy two of them I'm sure a
discount can be had. So two combi's that will do a bathroom each and two
independent heating zones for around £1,000 or much less. No zone valves to
buy and try to locate out of the way (or go wrong). The only extra may be a
thermostat for each. If you are using thermostatic rad valves on each rad
then no wall thermostat is needed, a simple connect to the power job.
Each boiler is fully independent serving its own zone and bathroom. The
other hot taps can be shared out between the two combi's: kitchen on one the
dishwasher on another, etc. Location is fully flexible, as the combis are so
small (777H x 400W x 300D) they can be fitted side by side (no more than
1000mm in width) or on top of each other, or in totally separate locations
in the house. If one boiler drops out at least there is a bathroom serviced
and heat to one of the floors.
A 9.5 litres/min combi could serve the upper floors and the least used
bathroom and a 11.4 litres/min model cold serve downstairs, the most used
bathroom and the most used hot kitchen tap. One bathroom does not influence
the other when taps are opened.
This is a cheaper way of having two bathrooms served and fully independent
zoning thrown in for nothing, and you still save lots of space and cheap to
run.
Nell McAndrew
> http://www.ferroli.co.uk. Certainly Ariston you can. Get the details of
> the Ferroli Domina as well. This is essentially a small flowrate Modena
> that has the flue going directly out the back, so no flue pipe seen above
> the casing.
>
> BTW, Ariston give a 2 year guarantee and 5 yeas on the plate heat
exchanger.
> I would still go for the Ferroli Modena 102 for its simplicity, potential
> reliability and comfort feeling in the flowrate. If size is vital then a
> 27kW Microgenus. That's my view on a one bathroom house anyway.
>
> Best of luck
>
Thanks for that
Size is not the main issue and i was going to use the area where the hot
water cylinder is housed.
I could free this area for other uses if i were to site the boiler in the
kitchen cupboards out of the way. My cupboards are 290mm deep and looking
at the size of the boliers only a Ferroli Modena 80 or Domina 80 would fit.
The Ariston of 300mm and the Ferroli 102's of 360mm would look out of place.
Being that i only have 5 rads and mostly have showers do you think a Ferroli
(i presume from above Modena 80 opposed to Domina 80) be acceptable?
Obviously I would much prefer to have to run the boiler at 60% capacity
rather than above 85%.
TIA
Adam
> > You can order the bumph of both boilers from their web sites.
> > http://www.ferroli.co.uk. Certainly Ariston you can. Get the details
of
> > the Ferroli Domina as well. This is essentially a small flowrate Modena
> > that has the flue going directly out the back, so no flue pipe seen
above
> > the casing.
> >
> > BTW, Ariston give a 2 year guarantee and 5 yeas on the plate heat
> exchanger.
> > I would still go for the Ferroli Modena 102 for its simplicity,
potential
> > reliability and comfort feeling in the flowrate. If size is vital then
a
> > 27kW Microgenus. That's my view on a one bathroom house anyway.
> >
> > Best of luck
> >
>
>
> Size is not the main issue and i was going to use the area where the hot
> water cylinder is housed.
>
> I could free this area for other uses if i were to site the boiler in the
> kitchen cupboards out of the way. My cupboards are 290mm deep and looking
> at the size of the boliers only a Ferroli Modena 80 or Domina 80 would
fit.
>
> The Ariston of 300mm and the Ferroli 102's of 360mm would look out of
place.
>
> Being that i only have 5 rads and mostly have showers do you think a
Ferroli
> (i presume from above Modena 80 opposed to Domina 80) be acceptable?
>
> Obviously I would much prefer to have to run the boiler at 60% capacity
> rather than above 85%.
I would go for any Ferroli that fits in the cupboard. Remember you still
need to have air circulation vents in the cupboard, top and bottom.
Colin
the shower is BRILLIANT compared to an electic (unless you can find a 25kW
one and can get a direct connection to the National Grid...)
Only thing I would add is if you are going for a combi powered shower, get a
thermostatic mixer. They aren't cheap (c. 150-200+ quid) - but does prevent
the fluctuations when a toilet is flushed / hot is drawn elsewhere.
regards
Colin
Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:8sru4h$ghr$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
timegoesby
to do zoning and two bathrooms. It is so obvious. The sums do work out
cheaper as well. This sounds a real super way to simply get 2 zones and
only know how to do the piping which using two independent combi's is
not complex. If I do go ahead, I may do Speedfit pipes making this a
simple job to do. The design and installation of where to put and wire
up zone valves was something I was not confident in doing.
This thread, and the combi v conventional, have been brilliant. If only
they could be summarised in an FAQ. Lots of food for thought with
solutions for many problems, and I feel much more confident now.
Thanks to Nell, Colin and Adam and others on the combi v conventional
thread.
> > Thanks Nell, Colin and Adam. I find this thread interesting
> > along with the combi v conventional thread. I'm sold on
> > combi's with many of the old wives tales about them being
> > dissolved on this forum. Adam, what model, or models,
> > do you recommend for two bathrooms? That may be an
> > option for me. I liked your reply to Rick in the combi v
> > conventional thread.
> >
> > Nell was suggesting 19 l/m flow rates to avoid showers
> > being efected from other taps. Is that high a rate really
> > needed?
>
Adam
> Good comprehensive reply from Adam - I agree with
> all he says, in particular the shower is BRILLIANT
> compared to an electic (unless you can find a 25kW
> one and can get a direct connection to the National Grid...)
>
> Only thing I would add is if you are going for a combi
> powered shower, get a thermostatic mixer. They aren't
> cheap (c. 150-200+ quid) - but does prevent the
> fluctuations when a toilet is flushed / hot is drawn
> elsewhere.
Colin,
Fluctuations can be greatly minimised:
1) Split the cold water supply to cold taps from the cold water combi
supply. As the mains enter the house go straight to the combi inlet. At it
enters the house, tee off and take those to all the cold taps. You could
put a gate valve where the cold line tees off using this to restrict the
whole cold supply line. Divide and rule.
2) Put in-line restrictors at cold taps (about £3 each). Basin taps and
toilets don't need high flowrates so throttle them back.
3) Throttle back hot taps too that don't require great flow, if the combi
is operating on a water flow detector as the Ariston and Ferroli do. Few
hot taps require great flow. The shower and bath tap are about the only ones
that do.
All too often mains water taps splash over the person turning on the tap as
the pressure and flow is to great for the required usage. People tend to
over turn the taps. Just restrict it.
It is not difficult to minimise, or virtually eliminate, fluctuations.
Colin
Are service valves any good for reducing pressure to sinks, etc?
I think I have tried this in the past, to reduce the pressure to toilet
cisterns - which didn't work. I ended up fitting a high pressure ball cock
valves to solve the problem (not shutting off and over-filling)
re. T'ing off cold water, etc - wish I had thought more about that as I was
plumbing the system...
Cheers
Colin
Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:8t17sr$rbh$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Colin" <no...@none.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:GJSI5.60322$6N2.4...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
>
> > Good comprehensive reply from Adam - I agree with
> > all he says, in particular the shower is BRILLIANT
> > compared to an electic (unless you can find a 25kW
> > one and can get a direct connection to the National Grid...)
> >
> > Only thing I would add is if you are going for a combi
> > powered shower, get a thermostatic mixer. They aren't
> > cheap (c. 150-200+ quid) - but does prevent the
> > fluctuations when a toilet is flushed / hot is drawn
> > elsewhere.
>
Ed Sirett
Colin wrote in message ...
>Hi Adam,
>
>Are service valves any good for reducing pressure to sinks, etc?
>
They work at keeping the water in the sink/basin rather than on your clothes
but there are questions about the reliability of leaving a service valve at
the half open position due to corrosion the valve then not being serviceable
as a service valve IYSWIM.
You could fit two one you?
>
>I think I have tried this in the past, to reduce the pressure to toilet
>cisterns - which didn't work. I ended up fitting a high pressure ball cock
>valves to solve the problem (not shutting off and over-filling)
>
Indded so. Since the full mains pressure is on the float valve when the flow
has been stopped, the full main pressure can force its way past a low
pressure nozzle and washer.
Ed Sirett
Property Maintainer - North London.
Ed Sirett
timegoesby wrote in message <8t1547$mls$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Wow! I would never have thought in a million years of using two combi's
>to do zoning and two bathrooms. It is so obvious. The sums do work out
>cheaper as well. This sounds a real super way to simply get 2 zones and
>only know how to do the piping which using two independent combi's is
>not complex. If I do go ahead, I may do Speedfit pipes making this a
>simple job to do. The design and installation of where to put and wire
>up zone valves was something I was not confident in doing.
>
>This thread, and the combi v conventional, have been brilliant. If only
>they could be summarised in an FAQ. Lots of food for thought with
>solutions for many problems, and I feel much more confident now.
>
>thread.
>
I believe that quite a bit of the combi v conventional arguments are already
set out in the FAQ.
I have not been closely following this thread but I hope that you realize
that when you install two combi boilers which have a large gas rate the gas
supply pipe will probably have to be in 28mm, depending on the house this
may be more or less of a problem.
James Day
<e...@makewrite.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>timegoesby wrote in message <8t1547$mls$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>Wow! I would never have thought in a million years of using two combi's
>>to do zoning and two bathrooms. It is so obvious. The sums do work out
>>cheaper as well. This sounds a real super way to simply get 2 zones and
>>only know how to do the piping which using two independent combi's is
>>not complex. If I do go ahead, I may do Speedfit pipes making this a
>>simple job to do. The design and installation of where to put and wire
>>up zone valves was something I was not confident in doing.
>>
>
>I have not been closely following this thread but I hope that you realize
>that when you install two combi boilers which have a large gas rate the gas
>supply pipe will probably have to be in 28mm, depending on the house this
>may be more or less of a problem.
>
We have two combis (large 3 story victorian semi) - one in the middle
floor bathroom and one in the downstairs utility (ajacent to the
kitchen). This works really well - with a high flow combi in the
bathroom. My wife however has complained about how long it takes to
fill the bath (I never thought this was a problem) - turns out she
just puts the hot on with the flow adjusted so that the water is at
its highest temperature - then adds cold at the end .
Your point about the 28mm is spot on - we were a new gas connection,
and transco were repeatedly told our gas requirements (adding in a
potential gas hob and fire), but still initially put a 15mm supply in
and a tiny meter. Getting them to change it, so the systems could be
commisioned took ages ( they had to come and re-mole).
The new meter was huge - when I asked why they haven't bolted it to
the wall (it sits on the floor) I was told it wasn't a domestic
meter, dispite me pointing out that the kids manage to kick it every
morning. (its in the internal porch).
James
Adam
"Ed Sirett" <e...@makewrite.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:972336502.28837.2...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> timegoesby wrote in message <8t1547$mls$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >Wow! I would never have thought in a million years of using two combi's
> >to do zoning and two bathrooms. It is so obvious. The sums do work out
> >cheaper as well. This sounds a real super way to simply get 2 zones and
> >only know how to do the piping which using two independent combi's is
> >not complex. If I do go ahead, I may do Speedfit pipes making this a
> >simple job to do. The design and installation of where to put and wire
> >up zone valves was something I was not confident in doing.
> >
> >they could be summarised in an FAQ. Lots of food for thought with
> >solutions for many problems, and I feel much more confident now.
> >
> >thread.
> >
> I believe that quite a bit of the combi v conventional arguments are
already
> set out in the FAQ.
The FAQ is full of the typical combi fallacies and old wives tales. This
thread, the combi v conventional and others in the past month have put most,
if not all, to rest.
Ledswinger
>
> > >
> > I believe that quite a bit of the combi v conventional arguments are
> already
> > set out in the FAQ.
>
> The FAQ is full of the typical combi fallacies and old wives tales. This
> thread, the combi v conventional and others in the past month have put most,
> if not all, to rest.
>
Allegedly.
Led
Adam
"James Day" <ja...@no39.net> wrote in message
news:39f4e1e9....@news.demon.co.uk...
> We have two combis (large 3 story victorian semi) -
> one in the middle floor bathroom and one in the
> downstairs utility (ajacent to the kitchen). This
> works really well - with a high flow combi in the
> bathroom. My wife however has complained about
> how long it takes to fill the bath (I never thought
> this was a problem) - turns out she just puts the
> hot on with the flow adjusted so that the water is at
> its highest temperature - then adds cold at the end.
Having the DHW can accelerate scale formation. Have it the right temp.
> Your point about the 28mm is spot on - we were
> a new gas connection, and transco were repeatedly
> told our gas requirements (adding in a potential gas
> hob and fire), but still initially put a 15mm supply in
> and a tiny meter.
15mm mains supply? Well that is new to me. Private Enterprise for you!
British Gas were in the process of changing all the mains pipes to 1". That
was their "minimum" size.
> Getting them to change it, so the systems could be
> commisioned took ages ( they had to come and re-mole).
>
> The new meter was huge - when I asked why
> they haven't bolted it to the wall (it sits on the floor)
> I was told it wasn't a domestic meter, dispite me
> pointing out that the kids manage to kick it every
> morning. (its in the internal porch).
Let's say you are putting in two combi's at an average of 90,000 btus each.
That is approx 90 cubic foot/hour for each, so 180 cubic foot. A normal 212
cu foot/hr meter can supply that and has a "100%" overload. So no problems
with a 1" mains supply and a normal domestic meter and a 1" mains supply.
The meter may make a noise when two combi's are firing, but make the
cupboard more soundproof and there is no problem.
With two combis it is probably better to take a 22mm gas supply back to the
meter for each. Nevertheless a 40 foot 28mm pipe will deliver approx 214 cu
foot/hr. It may be worth it, depending on you house configuration, taking
28mm half the way to the two combi's and tee off two 22mm supplies to each
combi
Adam
"Ledswinger" <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
news:8t3p9d$3sc$1...@lure.pipex.net...
The FAQ is totally misleading. Full of fallacies. And that is a FACT!!
Who wrote it? Fred Dibnah.
Tom
In your opinion!! which is not necessarily shared by all of us.
Tom
Adam
"Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
>
> "Ledswinger" <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
> news:8t3p9d$3sc$1...@lure.pipex.net...
> > Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:8t3o30$lm7$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > I believe that quite a bit of the combi v conventional arguments are
> > > already
> > > > set out in the FAQ.
> > >
> > > The FAQ is full of the typical combi fallacies and old
> > > wives tales. This thread, the combi v conventional and
> > > others in the past month have put most, if not all, to rest.
> >
> > Allegedly.
>
> The FAQ is totally misleading. Full of fallacies. And that is a FACT!!
> Who wrote it? Fred Dibnah.
From the FAQ below. My comments are in square brackets.
>>>>>>>>>
This type of system [combi], whilst having the advantages described above,
does have some drawbacks:
* flow rate of hot water is lower than a storage system, consequently
filling a bath will take longer
[Not so. High flowrate versions are available that may supply two bathrooms]
* the flow rate for *all* the appliances in the house is limited by the
capacity of the rising main. [true] Flushing a toilet may thus lead to
the hot water temperature fluctuating, or even going cold. [fluctuations
can be minimised by piping the system correctly and restricting flow on
various outlets that don't need high flowrates (toilet and basins for
instance)] Do not install a combination boiler unless your rising main is
sufficiently good - flow rate may not be adequate for washing
machines/dishwashers that require a hot feed [?? washing machines don't
require high flowrates. they just fill up and then work. A very low
pressure may not open the inlet valve, that's all].
* hot water temperature may fluctuate unpredictably
[gives no reason why]
* when hot water is being used no heating is available (although this would
only be significant if the radiators are not already hot when hot water is
required. [true. But, some models are available that supply DHW and
heating]
* Pressure variations within a sealed system are quite high, which can
encourage leaks from radiator valves, etc.
[this is balls]
<<<<<<<<<<<
I appreciate that people are attempting to help others. Nevertheless
incorrect information does the reverse.
Adam
"Tom" <rhe...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:39F56FB8...@clara.co.uk...
> Adam wrote:
> >
> > "Ledswinger" <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
> > news:8t3p9d$3sc$1...@lure.pipex.net...
> > > Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8t3o30$lm7$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > I believe that quite a bit of the combi v conventional arguments
are
> > > > already
> > > > > set out in the FAQ.
> > > >
> > > > The FAQ is full of the typical combi fallacies and old
> > > > wives tales. This thread, the combi v conventional and
> > > > others in the past month have put most, if not all, to rest.
> > >
> > > Allegedly.
> >
> > The FAQ is totally misleading. Full of fallacies. And that is a FACT!!
> > Who wrote it? Fred Dibnah.
>
> Tom
I'm not stating opinion. I state FACTS. Please look at reality and get out
of the 1960/70s. See my email on the FAQs combi disadvantages.
Ledswinger
>
>
> The FAQ is totally misleading. Full of fallacies. And that is a FACT!!
> Who wrote it? Fred Dibnah.
>
Do the use of capitals and superfluous punctuation make that a "more true"
fact?
Proof by grammar, Mr Firth please note!
Led
Adam
"Ledswinger" <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
> Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8t3q13$n2n$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> >
> > The FAQ is totally misleading. Full of fallacies. And that is a FACT!!
> > Who wrote it? Fred Dibnah.
> >
>
> Do the use of capitals and superfluous punctuation make that a "more true"
> fact?
Makes you focus on what is relevant. And it is "more true".
Ledswinger
>
>
> From the FAQ below. My comments are in square brackets.
>
> >>>>>>>>>
>
> This type of system [combi], whilst having the advantages described above,
> does have some drawbacks:
>
> * flow rate of hot water is lower than a storage system, consequently
> filling a bath will take longer
> [Not so. High flowrate versions are available that may supply two bathrooms]
>
Except that the market is dominated by low cost, low flow rate combi's. What
is *technically possible* is not the norm as things stand, and the FAQ
reflects most people's experience. Just to give an example based on your
previous posts, it is possible to have power showers blasting 20 litres a
minute. But unless you have either a high output boiler and a fast recovery
coil, or a humungous hot water tank, or a tank stat set at 90 C, the 20l/min
shower will use the entire supply of hot water in a matter of minutes. Do you
start to see the point of the FAQ, and how reality and possibility are
different?
Most plumbing systems are a cludge, even when looking at modern "best
practice", but the point is that most of us have to put up with what we've got
to a greater or lesser extent.
> * the flow rate for *all* the appliances in the house is limited by the
> capacity of the rising main. [true] Flushing a toilet may thus lead to
> the hot water temperature fluctuating, or even going cold. [fluctuations
> can be minimised by piping the system correctly and restricting flow on
> various outlets that don't need high flowrates (toilet and basins for
> instance)] Do not install a combination boiler unless your rising main is
> sufficiently good - flow rate may not be adequate for washing
> machines/dishwashers that require a hot feed [?? washing machines don't
> require high flowrates. they just fill up and then work. A very low
> pressure may not open the inlet valve, that's all].
>
> * hot water temperature may fluctuate unpredictably
> [gives no reason why]
>
Apart from those reasons given above! But in any event, you make certain
assumptions yet again about what exists, is practicable and what is possible.
You also make value judgements about flow rates for basins and bogs. Some of
us want more than a dribble from our taps, and anybody who's recently curled
down a "two flusher" will know what a bloody nuisance a slow filling toilet
cistern is.
> * when hot water is being used no heating is available (although this would
> only be significant if the radiators are not already hot when hot water is
> required. [true. But, some models are available that supply DHW and
> heating]
>
But these are not the norm, are they? Possibility vs reality.
> * Pressure variations within a sealed system are quite high, which can
> encourage leaks from radiator valves, etc.
> [this is balls]
>
Are you saying that leakage isn't related to head? Or are you claiming that
pressurised systems don't operate at higher pressure than unpressurised
systems?
Led
Adam
> Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8t3ri8$o4g$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > From the FAQ below. My comments are in square brackets.
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>
> >
> > This type of system [combi], whilst having the advantages
> > described above, does have some drawbacks:
> >
> > * flow rate of hot water is lower than a storage system,
> > consequently filling a bath will take longer [Not so. High
> > flowrate versions are available that may supply two
> > bathrooms]
>
> Except that the market is dominated by low cost,
> low flow rate combi's. What is *technically possible*
> is not the norm as things stand, and the FAQ
> reflects most people's experience.
This is utter balls. Because the market is dominated by low rate models
doesn't mean that is all what should be peddled and advised. An FAQ reader
would go away thinking there are only low rate crap models available.
Lowest common denominator comes to mind.
> Just to give an example based on your
> previous posts, it is possible to have power
> showers blasting 20 litres a minute. But
> unless you have either a high output boiler
> and a fast recovery coil, or a humungous
> hot water tank, or a tank stat set at 90 C,
> he 20l/min shower will use the entire supply
> of hot water in a matter of minutes. Do you
> start to see the point of the FAQ, and how
> reality and possibility are different?
I think you have lost touch with reality. A combi will supply a two bathroom
house with adequate shower flowrates. There is no argument on that as that
is the case. Above 2 bathrooms or exceptional circumstances (two 20 l/min
showers) rapid recovery stored water has to be used. Now you are hoitting
commercail sized systems. A combi "can" cope with one 20 l/min shower.
ECO-Homtech have a 22 l/min instant combi that will never run out of water.
> Most plumbing systems are a cludge, even
> when looking at modern "best practice", but
> the point is that most of us have to put up with
> what we've got to a greater or lesser extent.
I don't see what your point is relating the inaccuracies of the FAQ.
Pointing out cludgy systems doesn't help people improving their own or
installing the best and most cost effective available, the combi.
> > * the flow rate for *all* the appliances in the house is limited by the
> > capacity of the rising main. [true] Flushing a toilet may thus lead
to
> > the hot water temperature fluctuating, or even going cold.
[fluctuations
> > can be minimised by piping the system correctly and restricting flow on
> > various outlets that don't need high flowrates (toilet and basins for
> > instance)] Do not install a combination boiler unless your rising main
is
> > sufficiently good - flow rate may not be adequate for washing
> > machines/dishwashers that require a hot feed [?? washing machines
don't
> > require high flowrates. they just fill up and then work. A very low
> > pressure may not open the inlet valve, that's all].
> >
> > * hot water temperature may fluctuate unpredictably
> > [gives no reason why]
> >
>
> Apart from those reasons given above!
> But in any event, you make certain
> assumptions yet again about what exists,
> is practicable and what is possible.
That is vague!!! I'm not "assuming" at all!!!!!! No assumptions on my
side, just pure facts.
> You also make value judgements about flow
> rates for basins and bogs. Some of us want
> more than a dribble from our taps,
Who is talking about a dribble from taps? Assumptions from you. I have
never even implied that. I'm not. I'm saying don't have a tap that has the
force of firehose that doesn't need it. Most don't need a force that that.
Balance up the water system and wild fluctuations will be minimised or
eliminated. Simple.
> and anybody who's recently curled
> down a "two flusher" will know what a
> bloody nuisance a slow filling toilet
> cistern is.
Depends on your usage. Fast filler a essential for commercail situlations,
not so in a domestic one.
> > * when hot water is being used no heating
> > is available (although this would
> > only be significant if the radiators are not
> > already hot when hot water is
> > required. [true. But, some models are
> > available that supply DHW and heating]
>
> But these are not the norm, are they? Possibility vs reality.
Reality!!! They are available!!!! This FAQ firmly gives the impression
they are NOT - note capitals.
> > * Pressure variations within a sealed system
> > are quite high, which can encourage leaks
> > from radiator valves, etc. [this is balls]
>
> Are you saying that leakage isn't related to head?
> Or are you claiming that pressurised systems don't
> operate at higher pressure than unpressurised
> systems?
Read what it said. It said "variation". In FACT, the opposite is true when
compared to open vented. This "encourage leaks" is well what? What does it
mean? Does it mean the kids will take a spanner to the rads?
To bottom line again: The FAQ is very misleading, and some parts are totally
inacurate. It appears to reflect fallacies that came about about 15-20 years
ago when combi's were far more primintive than today. It take swrorse case
examples and passes them off as the norm. I would advise people to totally
ignore it.
I admire people who take the time to help others, but uninformed knowledge
can be dangerous, and this is a prime example.
James Day
wrote:
>
>"James Day" <ja...@no39.net> wrote in message
>news:39f4e1e9....@news.demon.co.uk...
>
>> We have two combis (large 3 story victorian semi) -
>> one in the middle floor bathroom and one in the
>> downstairs utility (ajacent to the kitchen). This
>> works really well - with a high flow combi in the
>> bathroom. My wife however has complained about
>> how long it takes to fill the bath (I never thought
>> this was a problem) - turns out she just puts the
>> hot on with the flow adjusted so that the water is at
>> its highest temperature - then adds cold at the end.
>
>Having the DHW can accelerate scale formation. Have it the right temp.
I don't understand what you mean here.
>
>> Your point about the 28mm is spot on - we were
>> a new gas connection, and transco were repeatedly
>> told our gas requirements (adding in a potential gas
>> hob and fire), but still initially put a 15mm supply in
>> and a tiny meter.
>
>15mm mains supply? Well that is new to me. Private Enterprise for you!
>British Gas were in the process of changing all the mains pipes to 1". That
>was their "minimum" size.
I assumed it was 15mm - it certainly looked smaller than 1". The new
supply is around 1.5 inches or so.
>
>> Getting them to change it, so the systems could be
>> commisioned took ages ( they had to come and re-mole).
>>
>> The new meter was huge - when I asked why
>> they haven't bolted it to the wall (it sits on the floor)
>> I was told it wasn't a domestic meter, dispite me
>> pointing out that the kids manage to kick it every
>> morning. (its in the internal porch).
>
>Let's say you are putting in two combi's at an average of 90,000 btus each.
>That is approx 90 cubic foot/hour for each, so 180 cubic foot. A normal 212
>cu foot/hr meter can supply that and has a "100%" overload. So no problems
>with a 1" mains supply and a normal domestic meter and a 1" mains supply.
>The meter may make a noise when two combi's are firing, but make the
>cupboard more soundproof and there is no problem.
You may well be right - but my heating engineer refused to commision
the system with the first meter. Transco sent a surveyor, who agreed
and mutter a few choice words about the idiots who put it in.
As a by product of all this efficeincy we didn't get a gas bill for
over 18 months, and that was only for the previous quarter.
>With two combis it is probably better to take a 22mm gas supply back to the
>meter for each. Nevertheless a 40 foot 28mm pipe will deliver approx 214 cu
>foot/hr. It may be worth it, depending on you house configuration, taking
>28mm half the way to the two combi's and tee off two 22mm supplies to each
>combi
Ours has 22mm all the way to both boilers
James
Ledswinger
>
> I don't see what your point is relating the inaccuracies of the FAQ.
> Pointing out cludgy systems doesn't help people improving their own or
> installing the best and most cost effective available, the combi.
>
IYHO
>
> > You also make value judgements about flow
> > rates for basins and bogs. Some of us want
> > more than a dribble from our taps,
>
> > and anybody who's recently curled
> > down a "two flusher" will know what a
> > bloody nuisance a slow filling toilet
> > cistern is.
>
> Depends on your usage. Fast filler a essential for commercail situlations,
> not so in a domestic one.
>
You've never encountered "the one that won't go away" at home?
>
> I admire people who take the time to help others, but uninformed knowledge
> can be dangerous, and this is a prime example.
>
The FAQ ties up with my experience of combi's. I don't doubt that they are
better than they used to be, but the fundamental failings of both indirect
stored HW systems, and of combi's remain. For most of us the indirect system
appears to work best, although in some circumstances that is not the case.
You are entitled to your alternative view, but it does appear to be a minority
view that combi's are the best solution to all heating needs.
Led
Adam
> On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:49:37 +0100, "Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"James Day" <ja...@no39.net> wrote in message
> >news:39f4e1e9....@news.demon.co.uk...
> >
> >> one in the middle floor bathroom and one in the
> >> downstairs utility (ajacent to the kitchen). This
> >> works really well - with a high flow combi in the
> >> bathroom. My wife however has complained about
> >> how long it takes to fill the bath (I never thought
> >> this was a problem) - turns out she just puts the
> >> hot on with the flow adjusted so that the water is at
> >
> >Having the DHW can accelerate scale formation. Have it the right temp.
>
> I don't understand what you mean here.
Oops. Having the DHW hot can accelerate scale formation. Have it the right
temp.
> >> Your point about the 28mm is spot on - we were
> >> a new gas connection, and transco were repeatedly
> >> told our gas requirements (adding in a potential gas
> >> hob and fire), but still initially put a 15mm supply in
> >> and a tiny meter.
> >
> >15mm mains supply? Well that is new to me. Private Enterprise for you!
> >British Gas were in the process of changing all the mains pipes to 1".
That
> >was their "minimum" size.
>
> I assumed it was 15mm - it certainly looked smaller than 1". The new
> supply is around 1.5 inches or so.
I doubt if it is 15mm. It may be 3/4". Still rubbish. In the 1970/80s it
was all 1" service pipes.
> >> Getting them to change it, so the systems could be
> >> commisioned took ages ( they had to come and re-mole).
> >>
> >> The new meter was huge - when I asked why
> >> they haven't bolted it to the wall (it sits on the floor)
> >> I was told it wasn't a domestic meter, dispite me
> >> pointing out that the kids manage to kick it every
> >> morning. (its in the internal porch).
> >
> >Let's say you are putting in two combi's at an average of 90,000 btus
each.
> >That is approx 90 cubic foot/hour for each, so 180 cubic foot. A normal
212
> >cu foot/hr meter can supply that and has a "100%" overload. So no
problems
> >with a 1" mains supply and a normal domestic meter and a 1" mains supply.
> >The meter may make a noise when two combi's are firing, but make the
> >cupboard more soundproof and there is no problem.
>
> You may well be right - but my heating engineer refused to commision
> the system with the first meter. Transco sent a surveyor, who agreed
> and mutter a few choice words about the idiots who put it in.
What do they know about heating? They know how to dig roads and cause jams.
I don't know your exact cu ft/ht rating, but I'm confident that a normal 212
cu ft/hr meter would do it. Suppose you have 150 cu ft/hr. How often are
both combi's on full? That is drawing hot water at the same time. Probably
a minium time compared to toal run time where the combi's would be mainly on
part load with the burner modulated down. For this amount of time a 212 cu
ft/hr meter will do. the 100% overload wil come into it, with the vast
majority of the time under the 212.
I think your uninformed Tansco surveyor didn't know what he was doing.
> As a by product of all this efficeincy we didn't get a gas bill for
> over 18 months, and that was only for the previous quarter.
>
>
> >With two combis it is probably better to take a 22mm gas supply back to
the
> >meter for each. Nevertheless a 40 foot 28mm pipe will deliver approx 214
cu
> >foot/hr. It may be worth it, depending on you house configuration,
taking
> >28mm half the way to the two combi's and tee off two 22mm supplies to
each
> >combi
> Ours has 22mm all the way to both boilers
Should be no problems then.
Adam
"Ledswinger" <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
> Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > I don't see what your point is relating the inaccuracies of the FAQ.
> > Pointing out cludgy systems doesn't help people improving their own or
> > installing the best and most cost effective available, the combi.
>
No opinion. Look at what is available, installation costs, running costs,
performance (2 bath and under), etc, etc. Then weigh up advantages against
disadvantages and a combi wins hands down. Don't take my word for it.
Think about it. Open up your minds and walk to the edge you won't fall off.
> > > You also make value judgements about flow
> > > rates for basins and bogs. Some of us want
> > > more than a dribble from our taps,
> >
> > > and anybody who's recently curled
> > > down a "two flusher" will know what a
> > > bloody nuisance a slow filling toilet
> > > cistern is.
> >
> > Depends on your usage. Fast filler a essential for commercail
situlations,
> > not so in a domestic one.
>
> You've never encountered "the one that
> won't go away" at home?
Firehose speed of filling has relation to that.
> > I admire people who take the time to help others, but uninformed
knowledge
> > can be dangerous, and this is a prime example.
> >
>
> The FAQ ties up with my experience of combi's.
> I don't doubt that they are better than they used to
> be,
Have you actually read any of the combi threads over the past month? Have
you had any experoience of combi's?
> but the fundamental failings of both indirect
> stored HW systems, and of combi's remain.
> For most of us the indirect system
> appears to work best,
It doesn't work best. It works. And it takes up space in the house.
> although in some circumstances that is not the case.
> You are entitled to your alternative view,
You are stuck in the 1960s. "Alternative". About 1 million boilers a year
are installed in the UK with about 60,000 plus combi's . Combi's are the
norm. They have been the norm on the Continent for nearly 40 years -
Chaffotaux of France invented it in 1962, who also invented the first wall
hung boiler in 1955.
> but it does appear to be a minority
> view that combi's are the best solution
> to all heating needs.
Because of ignorance. As I say, do some homework. Look at what is available
and how they perform and what functionality they offer. Then the price of
them and the running costs. Compare advantages with disadvantages. Don't
go by fallacies and old wives tales as the FAQ is doing.
The combi is a panacea for 90% plus of British houses. The whole system in
one box.
Tom
> I'm not stating opinion. I state FACTS. Please look at reality and get out
> of the 1960/70s. See my email on the FAQs combi disadvantages.
Adam, just because you say something doesn't necessarily make it true,I
hope that as you grow older you may gain some wisdom.
Having the last word every time does nothing for your credibility.
Tom
Tom
>
> "Ledswinger" <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
> > Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> > >
> > > I don't see what your point is relating the inaccuracies of the FAQ.
> > > Pointing out cludgy systems doesn't help people improving their own or
> > > installing the best and most cost effective available, the combi.
> >
>
> No opinion. Look at what is available, installation costs, running costs,
> performance (2 bath and under), etc, etc. Then weigh up advantages against
> disadvantages and a combi wins hands down. Don't take my word for it.
> Think about it. Open up your minds and walk to the edge you won't fall off.
>
> > > > rates for basins and bogs. Some of us want
> > > > more than a dribble from our taps,
> > >
> > > > down a "two flusher" will know what a
> > > > bloody nuisance a slow filling toilet
> > > > cistern is.
> > >
> > > Depends on your usage. Fast filler a essential for commercail
> situlations,
> > > not so in a domestic one.
> >
> > won't go away" at home?
>
> Firehose speed of filling has relation to that.
>
> knowledge
> > > can be dangerous, and this is a prime example.
> > >
> >
Do I detect a note of hysteria here? :-)), is the voice rising to a high
pitch?
Tom
Adam
> Adam wrote:
> >
> > "Ledswinger" <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
> > > Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > I don't see what your point is relating the inaccuracies of the FAQ.
> > > > Pointing out cludgy systems doesn't help people improving their own
or
> > > > installing the best and most cost effective available, the combi.
> > >
> >
> > No opinion. Look at what is available, installation costs, running
costs,
> > performance (2 bath and under), etc, etc. Then weigh up advantages
against
> > disadvantages and a combi wins hands down. Don't take my word for it.
> > Think about it. Open up your minds and walk to the edge you won't fall
off.
> >
> > > > > rates for basins and bogs. Some of us want
> > > > > more than a dribble from our taps,
> > > >
> > > > > down a "two flusher" will know what a
> > > > > bloody nuisance a slow filling toilet
> > > > > cistern is.
> > > >
> > > > Depends on your usage. Fast filler a essential for commercail
> > situlations,
> > > > not so in a domestic one.
> > >
> > > won't go away" at home?
> >
> > Firehose speed of filling has relation to that.
> >
> > knowledge
> > > > can be dangerous, and this is a prime example.
> > > >
> > >
Tom,
You haven't spent a fortune on cylinders have you and regretting the
purchase. Don't tell yourself lies and believe them.
Adam
>
> > I'm not stating opinion. I state FACTS. Please look at reality and get
out
> > of the 1960/70s. See my email on the FAQs combi disadvantages.
>
> Adam, just because you say something
> doesn't necessarily make it true,
In this case it is true.
> I hope that as you grow older you may
> gain some wisdom.
I am full of wisdom, read the threads.
> Having the last word every time does
> nothing for your credibility.
Am I having the last word?
Roger Chapman
Am I right in assuming you actually claim:
1. That your prefered "2 bathroom" combis will simultaneously fill 2
baths at a flow rate at least equal to that provided by the typical
indirect boiler while adjusted to give DHW at the "right" temperature.
2. That valve glands are no more likely to leak at 3 bar than they
are at 0.5 bar.
Roger
Ed Sirett
Roger Chapman wrote in message <200010242...@zetnet.co.uk>...
>Adam
>
>Am I right in assuming you actually claim:
>
>1. That your prefered "2 bathroom" combis will simultaneously fill 2
>baths at a flow rate at least equal to that provided by the typical
>indirect boiler while adjusted to give DHW at the "right" temperature.
>
I've been having a few misgivings about the two bathroom sized combi and
what input gas rate it must have.
Assumputions: A good flow rate for filling a bath is 16 l/minute.
Water must be heated about 30C for a bath.
That's works out at around 35kW or 120,000 BTU/hr per bathroom.
I accept that one typical combi (as installed in the last few years) would
have a flow rate of about 9-13 litre/minute for this temperature rise.
Adam
"Roger Chapman" <r.ch...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:200010242...@zetnet.co.uk...
> Adam
>
> Am I right in assuming you actually claim:
>
> 1. That your prefered "2 bathroom" combis will simultaneously fill 2
> baths at a flow rate at least equal to that provided by the typical
> indirect boiler while adjusted to give DHW at the "right" temperature.
If I was installing a heating/water system in a two bathroom house, with
normal flowrates (no drencher showers or the likes), then I would choose one
of the 2 bathroom model combi's. Not only that if I was to zone the house,
zone 1 downstairs and zone 2 upstairs, I would probably buy two combi's to
work independently on each zone and bathroom. Why? It is cheaper to go the
two combi way as they come as self-contained boxes, and less problems with
fluctuations as the combi's are independent. Also more reliable as if you
use a combi with no 3-way valve, there is far less to go wrong. No separate
zone valves all over the place.
> 2. That valve glands are no more likely to
> leak at 3 bar than they are at 0.5 bar.
What are the hell are you on about? Again!
Colin
BTW - I am with Adam on combis - marvellous things ;-)
Could we have a little more snipping chaps??
Cheers
Colin
<snip>> >
Adam
> I've been having a few misgivings about the two
> bathroom sized combi and what input gas rate it must have.
Look at the web sites of the makers. They will have the info. The
citypumbing site has a pdf file or many of the flowrates.
> Assumputions: A good flow rate for filling a bath
> is 16 l/minute.
"recommended" by British Standards at 43C bath temp. A 14 l/min combi
delivering at 50C wont be far off.
> Water must be heated about 30C for a bath.
> That's works out at around 35kW or 120,000 BTU/hr
> per bathroom. I accept that one typical combi (as installed
> in the last few years) would have a flow rate of about
> 9-13 litre/minute for this temperature rise.
Low flowrates 9-11 l/min, medium 11-18, high 14 plus. Then it depends on
what type of combi to give high flowrates. Instant combis's are very high,
but stored water: unvented cyinders (e.g., Ariston), heat-banks (e.g.,
Vokera, Worcester) or thermal stores (Glow Worn) are far less. The Ariston
at 19 l/min is about 92,000 Btus.
As most people take showers, the combi gives power shower performance, a few
minutes extra to fill up a bath (even two simultaneously) is nothing that
upsets people. A two bathroom combi fills one bath very fast.
Clive E.
news:8t1547$mls$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Thanks to Nell, Colin and Adam and others on the combi v conventional
> thread.
A couple of months or so ago, there was suspicion that Adam was trolling
this ng, acting under several personae. Please will those concerned with
the original tracing of headers contact me by email.
--
Clive E. (Cli...@Bigfoot.com) My views, not my employer's.
UK.D-I-Y FAQs: http://pages.eidosnet.co.uk/~ukdiy/index.html
Adam
news:8t6f01$p5p$1...@soap.pipex.net...
> timegoesby <timeg...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8t1547$mls$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Thanks to Nell, Colin and Adam and others on the combi v conventional
> > thread.
>
> A couple of months or so ago, there was suspicion that Adam was trolling
> this ng, acting under several personae. Please will those concerned with
> the original tracing of headers contact me by email.
What are you saying? That I am this person? Am I Colin and Led as well?
Who are you anyway?
Adam
Colin
I have responded directly to Clive (whoever he is!)
I agree with what you have said re. combis - not everyone else will and
that's fine!!
I also agree that the FAQ should be factual, so that people can make up
their own minds, for their requirements, whatever they may be.
Combis do have their downsides, however that can be dealt with. For example,
I now have no stored water in my home - a problem if the supply is cut. I
can live with that, having had no lengthy (>1 day) outages in the past 20
years. A tank could be retained if that is a worry.
No stored hot water, so an electric outage means no hot water. Not so sure I
would take a bath or shower without lights though - candles are kinda nice
in the bathroom I guess!!
I really can't think of any other downsides...
Each to their own - but the FAQ should be factual and relate to current
technologies
regards
Colin McKean
ps. Adam - what trouble have you been causing in the past? ;-)
<snip>
Colin
colin....@technologist.com if you want
regards
Colin
Roger Chapman
from "Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> contains these words:
>>Am I right in assuming you actually claim:
>>1. That your prefered "2 bathroom" combis will simultaneously fill 2
>>baths at a flow rate at least equal to that provided by the typical
>>indirect boiler while adjusted to give DHW at the "right" temperature.
>If I was installing a heating/water system in a two bathroom house, with
>normal flowrates (no drencher showers or the likes), then I would
choose >one of the 2 bathroom model combi's. Not only that if I was to zone the
>house, zone 1 downstairs and zone 2 upstairs, I would probably buy two
>combi's to work independently on each zone and bathroom.
Make your mind up, one combi or 2, but either way a "2 bathroom"
combi does not appear adequate for a 2 bath household.
> > 2. That valve glands are no more likely to
> > leak at 3 bar than they are at 0.5 bar.
> What are the hell are you on about? Again!
Perhaps I should remind you of a couple of "FACTS" that you invented
when rubbishing the FAQ.
"* flow rate of hot water is lower than a storage system, consequently
filling a bath will take longer
[Not so. High flowrate versions are available that may supply two bathrooms]"
"* Pressure variations within a sealed system are quite high, which can
encourage leaks from radiator valves, etc.
[this is balls]"
* = FAQ, [] = Adam
Adam, you really must start using the same vocabulary as the rest of
us. Facts are something that are demonstrably true, not idle thoughts
dredged from you fertile imagination.
Roger
Brett
"Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
available that supply DHW and
>
> * Pressure variations within a sealed system are quite high, which can
> encourage leaks from radiator valves, etc.
> [this is balls]
>
I also agree that this is incorrect. Pipework is either sound or it isn't.
If there is a leak the combi isn't the problem .
>
> I appreciate that people are attempting to help others. Nevertheless
> incorrect information does the reverse.
>
This part of the FAQ does seem do be unduly negative towards combis.
--
Brett
I was born by Caesarian section...but not so you'd notice. It's just
that when I leave a house, I go out through the window.
Andy Wade
>Each to their own - but the FAQ should be factual and relate to current
>technologies
Having opened the FAQ to deal with failing lamps, I just took a peep at the
piece in contention, which starts a few paragraphs after
http://pages.eidosnet.co.uk/~ukdiy/plumbing/plumbingpage1.html#conventional
i.e. "This type of system, whilst having the advantages described above,
does have some drawbacks: [...]"
My vote is that that piece sounds legal decent honest and truthful and
remains a useful guide. However a later piece, which I'll quote in full,
...
"Can I attach a power (pumped) shower to my combi boiler?
(Ian Smith: )
"No. A power shower (q.v.) needs to draw its supply, both hot and cold, from
tanks so that it is not subject to problems with mains pressure variations.
Since a combi effectively gives you mains hot water it is incompatible with
a power shower"
... is surely now somewhat out of date and ought to be reviewed (?)
--
Andy
Ed Sirett
Andy Wade wrote in message <8t7bn4$4ci$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
Yes, I'm with you that the overall balance is about right, perhaps one or
two of the drawbacks need to be revised in the light of advances in combi
boilers although the existing installed 'base' of (fairly cheap) boilers in
actual homes is less technically advanced.
Some of the differences quoted as being between combi and conventional
boilers are more rightly the differences between sealed (pressurized) and
open vented heating systems - which as far as I'm concerned is a
non-contest, the sealed systems have it.
As for the power shower question it is plain wrong, IMHO. The answer is:
No. Firstly its illegal to pump water out of the mains, secondly the supply
pressure in the mains is usually at or even above the pressure a pump would
deliver.
Ed Sirett
Property Maintainer - North London.
Adam
> The message <8t55up$326$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
> from "Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> contains these words:
>
>
>
> >>1. That your prefered "2 bathroom" combis will simultaneously fill 2
> >>baths at a flow rate at least equal to that provided by the typical
> >>indirect boiler while adjusted to give DHW at the "right" temperature.
>
> >If I was installing a heating/water system in a two bathroom house, with
> >normal flowrates (no drencher showers or the likes), then I would
> choose >one of the 2 bathroom model combi's. Not only that if I was to
zone the
> >house, zone 1 downstairs and zone 2 upstairs, I would probably buy two
> >combi's to work independently on each zone and bathroom.
>
> combi does not appear adequate for a 2 bath household.
>
> > > leak at 3 bar than they are at 0.5 bar.
>
> > What are the hell are you on about? Again!
>
> when rubbishing the FAQ.
>
> filling a bath will take longer
> [Not so. High flowrate versions are available that may supply two
bathrooms]"
>
> encourage leaks from radiator valves, etc.
> [this is balls]"
>
>
> Adam, you really must start using the same vocabulary as the rest of
> us. Facts are something that are demonstrably true, not idle thoughts
> dredged from you fertile imagination.
Roger,
I'm sure your are very nice, but that does not detract from the point that
you are very confused.
>
Adam
news:p2DJ5.93159$6N2.5...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
> Adam,
>
> I have responded directly to Clive (whoever he is!)
I don't know myself.
> I agree with what you have said re. combis - not everyone else will and
> that's fine!!
>
> I also agree that the FAQ should be factual, so that people can make up
> their own minds, for their requirements, whatever they may be.
>
> Combis do have their downsides, however that can be dealt with. For
example,
> I now have no stored water in my home - a problem if the supply is cut. I
> can live with that, having had no lengthy (>1 day) outages in the past 20
> years. A tank could be retained if that is a worry.
>
> No stored hot water, so an electric outage means no hot water. Not so sure
I
> would take a bath or shower without lights though - candles are kinda nice
> in the bathroom I guess!!
>
> I really can't think of any other downsides...
>
> Each to their own - but the FAQ should be factual and relate to current
> technologies
>
> regards
> Colin McKean
>
> ps. Adam - what trouble have you been causing in the past? ;-)
None. I'm not sure if it is this one, however someone accused me of spamming
or trolling (I don't know what trolling is) about 6-8 months ago. This time
it is when I slagged the near useless FAQ on combi's. It is a way to
discredit someone. Best just ignore them otherwise you give them attention.
This an open forum for everyone. If someone wants a cosy old boys club then
they can have their own with passwords and leave normal people alone.
Andy Wade
> "No. A power shower (q.v.) needs to draw its supply, both hot and cold,
from
> tanks so that it is not subject to problems with mains pressure
variations.
> Since a combi effectively gives you mains hot water it is incompatible
with
> a power shower"
>
> ... is surely now somewhat out of date and ought to be reviewed (?)
Bzzzt! Ignore that. I hadn't read the question properly. I read it to
mean "can I feed a high pressure shower from a combi?", not "can I feed a
pumped shower ...?". The answer is of course correct in substance, even
if, as Ed suggested, the details could be explained better.
--
Andy
Ledswinger
news:8t76o4$cdc$2...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
>
> "Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8t3ri8$o4g$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> available that supply DHW and
>
> >
> > encourage leaks from radiator valves, etc.
> > [this is balls]
> >
>
> If there is a leak the combi isn't the problem .
>
Err, as a generalisation that first statement isn't correct, and the second
one is questionable.
The "seeking" effect of higher pressure is *exactly* why the water companies
operate zoned distribution systems with pressure reduction valves and break
pressure tanks. For an established leak, higher pressure equates to higher
leakage, added to which higher pressure is less amenable to Radweld fixes or
self sealing. So although a combi doesn't *cause* leaks, it does operate at
noticeably higher pressures, and that does lead directly to greater leakage
problems in an imperfect system. What's more, minor leaks in a vented gravity
system are of less significance than in a pressurised system because they
don't normally have any bearing on system performance and operation.
>
> This part of the FAQ does seem do be unduly negative towards combis.
>
>
I agree it is broadly negative. But the question is whether it is either
unfairly negative, or unrepresentative. To judge by the experiences of many
uk.d-i-y regulars it is both fair and representative. Adam's claims to the
contrary are often based on unusual solutions like very high capacity combi's
(which aren't the norm), or "two combi" solutions (which do exist, do work,
but again aren't really a credible solution for most people).
Led
Colin
Ledswinger <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
<snip>
> problems in an imperfect system. What's more, minor leaks in a vented
gravity
> system are of less significance than in a pressurised system because they
> don't normally have any bearing on system performance and operation.
Led, don't think I can agree with this. A small leak in a vented gravity
system could go un-noticed for years, apart from the damage the leaking
water could do (rot, etc), is the fact that constant topping up with fresh
oxygenated water is going to cause rust and scale problems in the system.
At least with a combi, the pressure drops, and cuts out the system. At this
point you could take the decision to re-pressurise it, so it would be
useable, as well as knowing that there is a problem somewhere.
regards
Colin
<snip>
Roger Chapman
from "Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> contains these words:
> I'm sure your are very nice, but that does not detract from the point
> that you are very confused.
Wrong on both counts. :-)
Roger
Tom
>
> Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> > "Clive E." <Cli...@Bigfoot.Com> wrote in message
> > news:8t6f01$p5p$1...@soap.pipex.net...
> > > this ng, acting under several personae. Please will those concerned
> with
> > > the original tracing of headers contact me by email.
> >
> > What are you saying? That I am this person? Am I Colin and Led as well?
> > Who are you anyway?
> >
> In the context of this ng, I am the maintainer of the uk.d-i-y FAQs. You
> will see my name at least at the bottom of every page of it. I am
> responsible for some of its content - mainly the references parts of it. A
> Deja search of this ng or an Alta Vista search of websites will reveal my
> credentials if you need further proof. These days I mostly scan the ng for
> suitable material for the FAQs, contributing little myself.
>
> I am particularly interested in alternative views on accepted wisdom which
> is why I pay special attention to your own views. I initially treat all
> postings from everyone with caution. Yes, I am suspicious that a couple of
> your "supporters" may in fact be *you* trying to bolster your own percieved
> credibility. No, I don't suspect either Led or Colin. Note: I am
> *suspicious* - I am not saying you *are* guilty, but there are just too many
> coincidences in some postings in style, content, headers and IP addresses
> for my liking. I hope that I am completely wrong on this. In reality I
> doubt I can prove categorically one way or the other. If you want to
> discuss it further you have my email address.
>
> I would like to feel that I could trust what you have to say, Adam, but I
> don't. There are ways of convincing people that you know what you are on
> about but your ranting and raving (etc), resorting to name calling and your
> almost unbelievable arrogance fail to win me over. Nothing you have posted
> so far convinces me that you actually have experience of what you're talking
> about.
>
> On the other hand, I am sure that you have a useful contribution to make but
> I need to know that you are more than some adolescent with little experience
> of the practicalities of diy, with so much time on his hands that he can
> spend all day scanning manuacturers' blurb and sitting in front of a PC
> regurgitating it.
>
> To no one in particular: I'm interested in objective discussions and will
> put anything that I consider to be relevant, concise and accurate into the
> FAQs if I feel it comes from trustworthy sources or has been endorsed by
> regulars here. I especially welcome material which can be cut and pasted
> directly into the FAQs: life's too short for me to provide much editorial
> work on the material.
> --
> Clive E. (Cli...@Bigfoot.com) My views, not my employer's.
> UK.D-I-Y FAQs: http://pages.eidosnet.co.uk/~ukdiy/index.html
Well said Clive, I fully endorse and support your stance.
Regards
Tom
John
Andy Wade <ajw...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:8t7bn4$4ci$1...@lure.pipex.net...
> Colin wrote ...
>
> >Each to their own - but the FAQ should be factual and relate to current
> >technologies
>
the
> piece in contention, which starts a few paragraphs after
>
http://pages.eidosnet.co.uk/~ukdiy/plumbing/plumbingpage1.html#conventional
> i.e. "This type of system, whilst having the advantages described above,
> does have some drawbacks: [...]"
>
> My vote is that that piece sounds legal decent honest and truthful and
> remains a useful guide. However a later piece, which I'll quote in full,
> ...
>
> "Can I attach a power (pumped) shower to my combi boiler?
> (Ian Smith: )
>
from
> tanks so that it is not subject to problems with mains pressure
variations.
> Since a combi effectively gives you mains hot water it is incompatible
with
> a power shower"
>
> ... is surely now somewhat out of date and ought to be reviewed (?)
No the power shower pump must be taken from a tank supply as it is not
permitted to pump from the mains (domestically that is). In any case
because a Combi "is" at mains pressure under low flow (typical shower)
conditions there is nothing to be gained from pumping this water into the
shower unit.
There are more sophisticated showers around than when the FAQ was written
but these are NOT the normal things which you will find installed (or being
installed due to various reasons) around the country. More sophisticated
models with higher performance (and thus higher instantaneous fuel rate
loadings) are available. A modicum of rewriting may be warranted but the
group as a whole should be very careful to avoid the rabid "lets all have a
massive combi to serve n^2 bathrooms" approach. I once described what would
happen if everyone wanted to pull massive amounts of gas each morning
before catching the 7.25 to London and the implications to the
infrastructure of the gas distribution network. Even your own gas supply
pipe, meter and governor is designed to measure only 6 cubic metres of gas
per hour and drawing in excess of this amount will cause delivery pressure
drops beyond the acceptable (try measuring the meter outlet pressure at 6
cu metres/hour). In any case as the meter measures in cubic volume a lower
pressure in the meter will cause it to deliver less amount in that volume
so from a value point of view you are paying more for what you get (subject
to any variation in metering efficiency at overload delivery rates)
Adam
> Adam,
> In the context of this ng, I am the maintainer of the uk.d-i-y FAQs. You
> will see my name at least at the bottom of every page of it. I am
> responsible for some of its content - mainly the references parts of it.
A
> Deja search of this ng or an Alta Vista search of websites will reveal my
> credentials if you need further proof. These days I mostly scan the ng
for
> suitable material for the FAQs, contributing little myself.
Ah! Getting down to it now. Pissed off because I quite rightly castigated
the FAQ, backed upo by other after I point it out. Combi's run off tanks?
They can be, but oh my God!! Anyone with sense might have asked me to
re-write it for them. It appears not you. You took it personally and your
style is vitriol and character assassination.
> I am particularly interested in alternative views on accepted wisdom which
> is why I pay special attention to your own views.
I certainly wasn't taught by Fed Dibnah.
> I initially treat all postings from everyone with
> caution. Yes, I am suspicious that a couple of
> your "supporters" may in fact be *you* trying to
> bolster your own percieved
> credibility.
The tenacity on which I put a view over when I know it is "right" one, from
a professional viewpoint, is one that doesn't need assistance thank you very
much. That is clear. Are you the odd one who accused me last time?
> No, I don't suspect either Led or Colin. Note: I am
> *suspicious* - I am not saying you *are* guilty,
> but there are just too many coincidences in some
> postings in style, content, headers and IP addresses
> for my liking.
Don't suspect, as you will make a prat if yourself as you are doing right
now.
> I hope that I am completely wrong on this.
You are.
> In reality I doubt I can prove categorically
> one way or the other.
Then keep your mouth shut then, otherwise you make a prat out of yourself.
> If you want to
> discuss it further you have
> my email address.
Not in a milion years. This is an open forum, no one owns the list so don't
act as if you do. There are are guide rules of I have never broken. Only my
ISP can get me off the list. If you want a club then get one with passwords.
> I would like to feel that I could trust what
> you have to say, Adam, but I
> don't. There are ways of convincing people
> that you know what you are on
> about but your ranting and raving (etc),
Ranting and raving?????????
> resorting to name calling
Only when they do it first, or they have an obvious obnoxious attitude. Look
at the archives. Simple. Play the obvious areshole with me and will be a
bigger one back. From a small kid I have never backed down from a fight.
> and your almost unbelievable arrogance
> fail to win me over. Nothing you have posted
> so far convinces me that you actually have
> experience of what you're talking
> about.
What is your professional experience in the heating field? Obviously none.
You are in no position to comment or judge. It is clear in the depth of what
I go into that I obviously know the business. If you knew anything about the
business you would not be making a fool of yourself right now by uttering
such a crass comment.
> On the other hand, I am sure that you have a
> useful contribution to make but
> I need to know that you are more than some
> adolescent with little experience
> of the practicalities of diy, with so much time
> on his hands that he can spend all day scanning
> manuacturers' blurb and sitting in front of a PC
> regurgitating it.
You got that line from the service man on here. When he, and others, are hit
with something they know nothing of accusations of people reading makers
blurb are used discredit. Many of your so called "experts" on here, if they
in the game, come from the Fred Dibnah school of heating/water systems or
they are armatures with little more than a broad brush outline of the
business. Some are in the building game and think they know more than what
they actually do about heating, going mainly on old wives tales and the
likes.
Some of the advice given to people has been appalling, with much missing the
mark by miles or just plain 20 years out of date - just like your FAQ on
combi's. Poor advice is not worth taking believe me.
> To no one in particular: I'm interested in objective discussions and will
> put anything that I consider to be relevant, concise and accurate into
the
> FAQs if I feel it comes from trustworthy sources or has been endorsed by
> regulars here. I especially welcome material which can be cut and pasted
> directly into the FAQs: life's too short for me to provide much editorial
> work on the material.
I you had asked me I would have put one together for you on combi's v
conventional and mentioned some models in various ranges of flowrate: how to
pipe them up to reduce pressure fluctuations, criteria used to select one,
when to use a combi or when a conventional cylinder is better suited etc,
etc.
It looks like you blew it mate. And if you are putting one together?
Well.....
John
>
> Ledswinger <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
>
> <snip>
>
> > problems in an imperfect system. What's more, minor leaks in a vented
> gravity
> > system are of less significance than in a pressurised system because
they
> > don't normally have any bearing on system performance and operation.
>
> Led, don't think I can agree with this. A small leak in a vented gravity
> system could go un-noticed for years, apart from the damage the leaking
> water could do (rot, etc), is the fact that constant topping up with
fresh
> oxygenated water is going to cause rust and scale problems in the system.
Its a matter of degree (no pun intended) but said small leak will respond
easily to leak seal in the water at the typical low pressures of an open
vented system. Good leak sealers will also work on sealed systems but with
less reliability of seal.
>
> At least with a combi, the pressure drops, and cuts out the system. At
this
> point you could take the decision to re-pressurise it, so it would be
> useable, as well as knowing that there is a problem somewhere.
LOL - your confidence in the systems self protective mode will go down a
treat with those who are stuggling to get the ~@*%$$ to work on a Sunday
night :-)))))))))
--
Please note antispam measures - do not hit reply
Horse sense is what horses have that makes them not bet on people - W.C.
Fields
Regards,
John
(Who likes a bit of home life too - Out of hours call-outs at appropriate
rates <g>)
Charles DH Williams
<ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote:
> None. I'm not sure if it is this one, however someone accused me of spamming
> or trolling (I don't know what trolling is) about 6-8 months ago. This time
> it is when I slagged the near useless FAQ on combi's. It is a way to
> discredit someone. Best just ignore them otherwise you give them attention.
Troll: a deliberately provocative post, one guaranteed to
provoke a reaction due to its sheer stupidity or offensiveness. Also
refers to a person who is known to routinely post in this manner.
Adults: DON'T feed the Trolls by replying to their posts or arguing with
them, killfile them.
> This an open forum for everyone. If someone wants a cosy old boys club then
> they can have their own with passwords and leave normal people alone.
uk.d-i-y is not an "open forum for everyone". Like almost all internet
news groups participants are expected to abide by the group charter and
coventions. If someone wants an open forum they can set one up themselves
or go and to .
"Plink" is the traditional sound of someone being added to a killfile.
Plink.
Charles
Adam
"Charles DH Williams" <C.D.H.W...@exeter.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:C.D.H.Williams-...@cw-mac.ex.ac.uk...
Plink to you too. Who are you anyway?
Roger Chapman
rant in response typical of a craven coward hiding behind a false
name and a false address.
Roger
Andy Wade
> From a small kid I have never backed down from a fight.
That says it all, really.
>What is your professional experience in the heating field? Obviously none.
Well I think you should tell us in some detail what yours is.
>You are in no position to comment or judge. It is clear in the depth of
what
>I go into that I obviously know the business. If you knew anything about
the
>business you would not be making a fool of yourself right now by uttering
>such a crass comment.
ROTFL - and you owe me a can of screen cleaner :-)
>I you had asked me I would have put one together for you on combi's v
>conventional and mentioned some models in various ranges of flowrate: how
to
>pipe them up to reduce pressure fluctuations, criteria used to select one,
>when to use a combi or when a conventional cylinder is better suited etc,
>etc.
You don't have to wait to be asked. Draft it (preferably in English) and
post it here for peer review.
--
Andy
For the avoidance of any doubt, a big vote of thanks from me to Clive for
all the work he does on the FAQ's.
Adam
> FWIW I thought Clives words eminently sensible and Adams arrogant
> rant in response typical of a craven coward hiding behind a false
> name and a false address.
Roger,
I expected you say something so crass as you not in the real world. I'm sure
it's a nice world and you appear happy in it.
My name is not false Roger. There, there.
Adam
> Adam wrote ...
>
> > From a small kid I have never backed
> > down from a fight.
>
> That says it all, really.
Thank you.
> >What is your professional experience in the
> >heating field? Obviously none.
>
> Well I think you should tell us in some
> detail what yours is.
How about over 30 years? That enough? Well maybe 32.
> > I you had asked me I would have put one together
> > for you on combi's v conventional and mentioned
> > some models in various ranges of flowrate: how
> > to pipe them up to reduce pressure fluctuations,
> > criteria used to select one, when to use a combi
> > or when a conventional cylinder is better suited etc,
> > etc.
>
> You don't have to wait to be asked. Draft it
> (preferably in English) and post it here for
> peer review.
Well Andy, as crackers as you are, you well know I know what I am on about,
not that I have to justify it to rank amatures. As to the FAQ? Not while
this insulting idiot is in charge of it!!! Well he is naive really. Very
naive.
> For the avoidance of any doubt, a big
> vote of thanks from me to Clive for
> all the work he does on the FAQ's.
Are you thanking him for the combi bit as well? Are you? Are you serious?
Ed Sirett
Ledswinger wrote in message <8t8s4g$rql$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
>
>I agree it is broadly negative. But the question is whether it is either
>unfairly negative, or unrepresentative. To judge by the experiences of
many
>uk.d-i-y regulars it is both fair and representative. Adam's claims to the
>contrary are often based on unusual solutions like very high capacity
combi's
>(which aren't the norm), or "two combi" solutions (which do exist, do work,
>but again aren't really a credible solution for most people).
>
IMHO I think this is a bit unfair on combis (and sealed systems also), it
would be better to find and fix the leak but low pressure systems do allow
the better possiblity of 'Radweld' type 'liquid repairs'.
As for the bit about a thermal store combi being able to deliver
19litres/mintute from 92kBtu/hr - which it can't _sustainably_
The quote that sprang to mind was something like:
"Auch, you cannay change the laws of physics Jim" - Scotty.
Adam
"Ed Sirett" <e...@makewrite.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:972602303.6291.1...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> IMHO I think this is a bit unfair on combis (and sealed systems also), it
> would be better to find and fix the leak but low pressure systems do allow
> the better possiblity of 'Radweld' type 'liquid repairs'.
>
> As for the bit about a thermal store combi being able to deliver
> 19litres/mintute from 92kBtu/hr - which it can't _sustainably_
> The quote that sprang to mind was something like:
> "Auch, you cannay change the laws of physics Jim" - Scotty.
Ed,
The Ariston Genus 27 Plus is around 100,000 Btus serving a 60 litre unvented
cylinder storing water at 80C blending down to 45-50C. Flowrate 19
litres/min. The cylinder coil takes all the boilers output, so heating up
rapidly. In normal use it is enough to supply two baths before exhausting
of hot water. It can also supply two 7-8 litre/min showers for a good 20
mins each. It is designed around average usage of a household. Very rarely
will you run out of hot water, if ever. Heat-bank thermal stores give
greater flow rates still with the advantage that the store need not be
cylindrical. Any shape you want really and some are.
If you want fully continuous hot water at high flowrates then get the
ECO-Hometec. at 22 litres/min for ever.
Colin
>I you had asked me I would have put one together for you on combi's v
>conventional and mentioned some models in various ranges of flowrate: how
to
>pipe them up to reduce pressure fluctuations, criteria used to select one,
>when to use a combi or when a conventional cylinder is better suited etc,
>etc.
and
> Well Andy, as crackers as you are, you well know I know what I am on
about,
> not that I have to justify it to rank amatures. As to the FAQ? Not while
> this insulting idiot is in charge of it!!! Well he is naive really. Very
> naive.
Adam,
Whatever you think of other people on this list (or they think of you)
It would have made a difference to my installation if there had been info in
the FAQ re. pipework, etc.
I don't need any convincing of the benefit (in my case!) of combis.
I consider myself to be very lucky that I 'accidentally' picked a good
boiler (Ariston Microgenus). It could well have been a Ravenheat.. it's only
after following this NG for the past couple of weeks that I realise this
now. It should be in the FAQ... I for one would encourage you to write an
article for submission.
Regards
Colin
Tim Downie
"Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> "Andy Wade" <ajw...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
> > > I you had asked me I would have put one together
> > > for you on combi's v conventional and mentioned
> > > some models in various ranges of flowrate: how
> > > to pipe them up to reduce pressure fluctuations,
> > > criteria used to select one, when to use a combi
> > > or when a conventional cylinder is better suited etc,
> > > etc.
> >
> > You don't have to wait to be asked. Draft it
> > (preferably in English) and post it here for
> > peer review.
>
> Well Andy, as crackers as you are, you well know I know what I am on
about,
> not that I have to justify it to rank amatures. As to the FAQ? Not while
> this insulting idiot is in charge of it!!! Well he is naive really. Very
> naive.
Won't write or can't write Adam? If you are gods gift to plumbing as you
would have us all believe then you owe it to us all to put up an updated
entry for the FAQ here for review.
If you back down from this then you reveal yourself as the bullying coward
that many believe you to be. Your best way to answer your critics is to
write a balanced FAQ on combis listing advantages, disadvantages, common
problems etc., and posting it here for review. If it's judged to be fair
and informative then I'm sure it would go into the official FAQ.
In a nutshell, put up or shut up!
--
Tim
To reply by e-mail - "There is no spoon..."
Adam
"Tim Downie" <tim...@SPOONdownie999.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8tbf7n$trr$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Andy Wade" <ajw...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
> > > You don't have to wait to be asked. Draft it
> > > (preferably in English) and post it here for
> > > peer review.
> If you back down from this then you reveal
> yourself as the bullying coward
> that many believe you to be.
What?
> Your best way to answer your critics is to
> write a balanced FAQ on combis listing advantages,
> disadvantages, common problems etc., and posting
> it here for review. If it's judged to be fair
> and informative then I'm sure it would go into the
> official FAQ.
I feel I am being pressurised by many to write one, despite the insults for
the FAQ man. If I did it would not go up for review, as I can't see who is
good enough on here to review it.
Ledswinger
>
>
> I feel I am being pressurised by many to write one, despite the insults for
> the FAQ man. If I did it would not go up for review, as I can't see who is
> good enough on here to review it.
>
You condemn the FAQ, you are offered the chance to be constructive, and to
have an opportunity to have your say (semi) formally recorded, and you refuse.
I daresay that everyone can draw their own conclusions.
Led
Adam
"Ledswinger" <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
Year, that the FAQ man is a right prat for taking that attitude!
Ledswinger
Er, no.
Led
Adam
"Ledswinger" <Ledsw...@bigfoot.charlie.oscar.mike> wrote in message
Led,
Is Fred Dibnah a nice fellow? Did you pick a lot up from him. :-)
Tim Downie
"Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
>
> "Tim Downie" <tim...@SPOONdownie999.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:8tbf7n$trr$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > "Andy Wade" <ajw...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > You don't have to wait to be asked. Draft it
> > > > (preferably in English) and post it here for
> > > > peer review.
>
> > If you back down from this then you reveal
> > yourself as the bullying coward
> > that many believe you to be.
>
> What?
Perhaps bullying not the best word. How about overbearingly arrogant?
>
> > Your best way to answer your critics is to
> > write a balanced FAQ on combis listing advantages,
> > disadvantages, common problems etc., and posting
> > it here for review. If it's judged to be fair
> > and informative then I'm sure it would go into the
> > official FAQ.
>
> I feel I am being pressurised by many to write one, despite the insults
for
> the FAQ man. If I did it would not go up for review, as I can't see who
is
> good enough on here to review it.
ROTHFLOL! See what I mean? Breathtaking arrogance if ever I saw it. Just
amazing.
For a man with supposedly 30 years plumbing experience who doesn't even know
how
to disassemble a speedfit coupling, those are pretty strong words.
As to cowardly, well, I'll retract that when we see your FAQ.
John Schmitt
"Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> writes:
>I feel I am being pressurised by many to write one, despite the insults for
>the FAQ man. If I did it would not go up for review, as I can't see who is
>good enough on here to review it.
Let me get this right. You claim expertise in a field, but are not prepared to
put it on show, claiming that no one reading this newsgroup is qualified to
comment on it. You are probably unaware of the fact that there are numerous
lurkers on the newsgroup, some of whom are rather highly qualified. As others
have said, write the FAQ as you see it, using as much time as you need, (see,
no pressure) then publish it. I know from experience that FAQ writing is not
easy, and a good FAQ needs rewrites. My FAQs have benefitted from the
constructive criticism of the readers, and be prepared to answer questions in
email on the subject.
Currently, you are one more polemic posting away from entering my killfile, the
last killfilee being a couple of years ago, and I cannot remember precisely why
this person was plonked, but it is not a decision taken lightly. Continue in
this gratuitously argumentative vein, and you may be mentioned in the FAQ. As
PNG.
John Schmitt
--
It's half and half. Sometimes they're lying, sometimes they don't know what's
happening. - Vladimir Urban on the Russian submarine 'Kursk' crisis.
I've got a disclaimer, and I ain't afraid to use it.
Adam
"John Schmitt" <joh...@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8tbt53$7pg$1...@aquila.news.mdx.ac.uk...
> In article <8tbjf4$a2b$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> "Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> writes:
>
> >I feel I am being pressurised by many to write one,
> >despite the insults for the FAQ man. If I did it
> >would not go up for review, as I can't see who is
> >good enough on here to review it.
>
> Let me get this right. You claim expertise in a
> field, but are not prepared to put it on show,
That is wrong. I said I would not put it up for review by this group. Either
it goers in the FAQ or it doesn't - I assuming I did one of course.
> claiming that no one reading this newsgroup is
> qualified to comment on it.
I would say so, from what I have seen of it.
> You are probably unaware of the fact that
> there are numerous lurkers on the newsgroup,
> some of whom are rather highly qualified.
There may be some very highly qualified people reading, if they don't
contribute then they are not active members, so they stay invisible.
> As others have said, write the FAQ as you see it,
> using as much time as you need, (see,
> no pressure) then publish it. I know from experience
> that FAQ writing is not easy, and a good FAQ needs
> rewrites. My FAQs have benefitted from the
> constructive criticism of the readers, and be prepared
> to answer questions in email on the subject.
I have great expeience of technical writing. I tend to leave it alone and go
back a day or so later. The obvious errors stand out. The problem with
technical people is that they assume the reader knows what they are thinking
as they write; to them is quite obvious what is in their mind.
> Currently, you are one more polemic posting away
> from entering my killfile,
Do what you want. Pink, plink, plink, all you want too. Very touchy. That's
your choice. My choice is to respond in kind when insults and abuse come my
way; FAQ man or not. That's my choice and I think it the right one.
Adam
>
> "Adam" <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8tbjf4$a2b$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Tim Downie" <tim...@SPOONdownie999.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:8tbf7n$trr$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > > "Andy Wade" <ajw...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > > > You don't have to wait to be asked. Draft it
> > > > > (preferably in English) and post it here for
> > > > > peer review.
> >
> > > If you back down from this then you reveal
> > > yourself as the bullying coward
> > > that many believe you to be.
> >
> > What?
>
> Perhaps bullying not the best word.
> How about overbearingly arrogant?
Thank You.
> > > Your best way to answer your critics is to
> > > write a balanced FAQ on combis listing advantages,
> > > disadvantages, common problems etc., and posting
> > > it here for review. If it's judged to be fair
> > > and informative then I'm sure it would go into the
> > > official FAQ.
> >
> > I feel I am being pressurised by many to write one,
> > despite the insults from the FAQ man. If I did it
> > would not go up for review, as I can't see who is
> > good enough on here to review it.
>
> ROTHFLOL! See what I mean? Breathtaking
> arrogance if ever I saw it. Just amazing.
Not arrogance at all. Being realistic. remember I am no keen diy amateur.
> For a man with supposedly 30 years plumbing experience
> who doesn't even know how to disassemble a speedfit
> coupling, those are pretty strong words.
Do you know how many different types of plastic fittings are available?
There about 6 to my knowledge. Also they come and go, and are being changed
it appears by the month. Professionals only take Hep2o seriously with
Speedfit coming into contention. Marley have come out with some decent stuff
relatively recently, well time will tell!
Professionals are weary of this side of the pipe business, and most do give
it a DIY label. And for your info, I have NEVER used Speedfit. May do I the
future of reports come back that is good enough over time. I'll let the
DIYers test that field.
> As to cowardly, well, I'll retract that when
> we see your FAQ.
More pressure. :-)
Dave Plowman
Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote:
> I feel I am being pressurised by many to write one, despite the insults
> for the FAQ man. If I did it would not go up for review, as I can't see
> who is good enough on here to review it.
Don't hold back, Adam, say what you mean....
--
* Modulation in all things *
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Ledswinger
>
>
> I have great expeience of technical writing.
Indeed:
"Is Fred Dibnah a nice fellow? Did you pick a lot up from him."
"Year, that the FAQ man is a right prat for taking that attitude!"
"If you are in a hard water area and the cat is in the kettle, YES!"
"Is it that the brillo pad just get knocked about the kettle knock the scale
off. Abrasion."
"That is vague!!! I'm not "assuming" at all!!!!!! No assumptions on my
side, just pure facts."
"What are you saying? That I am this person? Am I Colin and Led as well?
Who are you anyway?"
"Well Andy, as crackers as you are, you well know I know what I am on about,
not that I have to justify it to rank amatures. As to the FAQ? Not while
this insulting idiot is in charge of it!!! Well he is naive really. Very
naive."
Led
Adam
Dave Plowman
Adam <ad...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote:
> I have great expeience of technical writing.
Is their no end to your talents?
--
* Who is this General Failure chap anyway - and why is he reading my HD? *
Adam
"Dave Plowman" <dave....@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4a141d86e4...@argonet.co.uk...
> > I have great expeience of technical writing.
>
> Is their no end to your talents?
No. If I listed them you wouldn't believe it. :-)
Adam
news:8t9nqf$2t4$1...@supernews.com...
> but the group as a whole should be very careful
> to avoid the rabid "lets all have a massive combi
> to serve n^2 bathrooms" approach.
Why? A two bathroom combi is never much more than 100,000 Btus. Off the
top of my head I don't think there is one over 15,000 Btus. A 100,000 Btus
boiler draws approx 100 cu foot /hour, so 150,000 draws 150 cu foot/hour.
The normal domestic meter is capable of drawing 212 du foot/hout (about
212,000 Btus).
> I once described what would happen if everyone
> wanted to pull massive amounts of gas each morning
> before catching the 7.25 to London and the implications
> to the infrastructure of the gas distribution network.
Thats for Transco to address. During and since the introduction of natural
gas in the 1970s, the gas distribtion network has been upgraged. The
pressure is twice what town gas was so it was easy to use existing pipes to
deliver the gas at the meter. They forcast that gas consumption would
rocket as gas CH systems were being installed at a rapid rate. They designed
in this expansion in most cases. Unlike the water system its backbone is no
longer Victorian.
> Even your own gas supply pipe, meter and
> governor is designed to measure only 6 cubic
> metres of gas per hour
Yes, about 212 cu foot/hour.
> and drawing in excess of this amount will
> cause delivery pressure drops beyond the
> acceptable
Having two combis at 100,000 Btus is within the scope of the meter. The
meter is also designed to run at 100% overload - a protection factor built
in. I wouldn't run one at 100% overload, but they can do it.
To bottom line: The gas distribution system is designed to cope. The average
meter with a 1" main pipe can handle any two bathroom combi on the market
and even two smallish combi's. This is a non-issue for DIYers.