we made it to xkcd
hastern
Lionel Debroux
> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/1996.png
>
This XKCD cartoon may have been triggered by
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/07/18/0152245/TI-vs-Calculator-Hobbyists-Again
(most people in the /. comments *completely* missed the point, but whatever)
Luke Setzer
whatever)"
Andy Kemp
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Luke Setzer
> to be used is if they are confident they understand what it can and can't
> do. If we start getting custom firmware for the Npsire which enables CAS
> style features then many of these exam groups will just say the Nspire
> cannot be used anymore.
Sometimes I have trouble reading between the lines.
As an aside, anyone who has ever purchased and used Mathcad knows that
the TI-Nspire CAS software provides much of the same power for a tiny
fraction of the cost. All this griping about limits that TI imposes
seems to use some fictional standard of value that denies market
standards. I paid a mint ($210 in 1988) for a DOS based version of
Mathcad 2.0 that only did numeric and not CAS calculations. Now the
latest version of Mathcad costs over $1000 and technical support for
the program basically sucks. By contrast, I have always found TI tech
support outstanding. You just cannot make some people on Slashdot
happy!
Lionel Debroux
> What was the point they completely missed?
1) * in the 10-15 past years, thousands of persons who are nowadays
employed in the computer engineering / science field, got their first
significant C / ASM programming experience on TI-Z80 and TI-68k
calculators. Between many others, I did, and I bought a TI-89 ten years
ago, _because_ I had seen someone around me doing cool things in C.
TI, the market leader, reducing the functionality of their devices (more
than three years after its debut, the Nspire (CAS)'s BASIC _still_ isn't
on par with that of TI-Z80 and TI-68k calculators...), and crossing
those who expand the functionality through C / ASM, is somewhat of a
step in the wrong direction for the IT field.
Netbooks and a number of smartphones are programmable, too - but they're
devices _much_ more powerful than TI-Z80 (BASIC / ASM), TI-68k (BASIC /
C / ASM) and Nspire (BASIC only, in TI's views) calcs are, and they're
programmed in languages of higher level than calcs are.
As such, netbooks and smartphones don't teach young people about
lower-level aspects, about optimization (size, speed, power, and
tradeoffs in-between), pushing the platforms to their limits, etc.
Once someone has been spoilt with high-level stuff, easier to program
but significantly decoupled from the hardware, it's very hard
(programmers are lazy :-) ) to change minds to care about lower-level,
harder-to-program stuff.
2) * TI's attacks against the freedom to tinker with the devices paid (a
fairly large amount of money at that: the power / price ratio is lower
for the Nspire than that of, say, netbooks and smartphones) and owned by
their users. That many companies do the same is no excuse.
(Andy Kemp wrote)
> I think the point that was missed was that if TI were not seen to be
> preventing access to custom OS on the handheld then they run a
> serious risk of being blocked by testing agencies...
Nope, a number of commenters did bring matters related to testing
agencies, forbidden functionality, leveling the playing field, etc.
That said, installing custom OS on TI-68k calculators has been possible
for about 10 years (and was made seamless in 2009), and installing
custom OS on TI-Z80 calculators is possible as well... and it didn't get
any of those models banned for that particular reason, AFAICT...
(Andy Kemp wrote)
> Just look at what happened to the HP-39G which was banned after
> someone discovered a hack to enable to CAS functions...
>
> The only way testing agencies will be happy to allow a graphical
> calculator to be used is if they are confident they understand what
> it can and can't do. If we start getting custom firmware for the
> Nspire which enables CAS style features then many of these exam
> groups will just say the Nspire cannot be used anymore...
TI crossing the people who want to unleash the potential of their
devices (for themselves and for other persons), is making it _more_, not
less, likely that CAS features ever happen to be available on the basic
Nspire, as a side consequence or even as a retaliation...
(Luke Seltzer wrote)
> By contrast, I have always found TI tech support outstanding.
It depends on what you're asking, and which TI official tech support
you're using: TI-Cares, for one, is known in the community to be less
helpful than community forums.
Nelson Sousa
--
Xavier Andréani
The only way to install a custom firmware on a TI-Nspire, is to factor the 1024-bits RSA public key into two great prime numbers.
So what are you afraid of ?
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:07:33 +0100
Subject: Re: [tinspire] Re: we made it to xkcd
From: an...@1kemp.co.uk
To: tins...@googlegroups.com
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
Nelson Sousa
Xavier Andréani
Or,did I miss the point?
By the way, standard TI Nspire Basic programs with more or less advanced CAS engines allready exist.
As the TI-Nspire is a close platform, those programs are slow but they do exist and are totally legal, as they didn't require any hacking and can be disabled in "testing mode".
From: nso...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:48:46 +0100
Subject: Re: [tinspire] Re: we made it to xkcd
Xavier Andréani
>7. Helpfulness of community forums: apart from hacking and ASM programming, ticalc.org's forum is almost near to useless; ti-bank's forum is actually useless...
Great comment for someone who is never online on TI-Bank...
We're so useless that we got allmost 70K visits last june, unlike Univers-TI-Nspire.
And no, the students didn't come to play games, nor to hack their calculator, or to program in ASM...
I do not program in ASM, and no active TI-Bank member does.
We're allmost never talking about asm programming... At least since late 2008 (when I joined TI-Bank).
Next time, please check your sources - thanks.
Greetings from TI-Bank's co-administrator.
Xavier Andréani
From: nso...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:00:54 +0100
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
Nelson Sousa
Andy Kemp
Lionel Debroux
which is a well-known trigger of flame wars ;)
I specifically avoided to mention it, on purpose. Not even sure this
would have been on-topic anyway, since this group is dedicated to
Nspire, right ?
A few notes. We know we aren't going to convince each other anyway.
> 1. when you pay for a TI-Nspire you're buying the hardware and a
> license to run the software. You're not authorized to reverse
> engineer the software;
You know, some rights to reverse-engineering are explicitly guaranteed
in many countries. Even in the US, under the DMCA, there's limited
rights to reverse-engineering. Yes, there is.
Between other things, the factorization of TI-Z80 and TI-68k public RSA
keys used for signature of OS and FlashApps was _protected_ by the DMCA.
TI's attacks on the keys' distribution were _illegal_. And the EFF's
list of DMCA abuses over the years grew one line.
(and those factorizations are a consequence of 1) the goal of making
alternative firmware and 2) TI not replying anymore to FlashApp signing
requests and thereby locking programmers and users out of updates to
such interesting functionality as the GTC on-calc TI-68k compiler)
> However, it's exactly the same thing with the iPhones, iPads, iPods,
> isn't it? You buy an iPhone and you're not allowed to hack its OS,
> are you? So, things like Ndless are, most likely, illegal.
>
> 2. the iOS is firmly locked, even more than TI-Nspire's. All APPS
> must be approved by Apple (TI-Nspire TNS documents need not be
> approved by anyone) and it has just about all the sins people
> keep blaming the Nspire's for. So, what's so exceptionally wrong
> with closing an OS? May not be my preferred option, but stil...
See the note in my previous mail, "That many companies do the same is no
excuse.". Of course one of the most obvious examples nowadays is iP* -
but that doesn't make such behaviour good for users !
> 4. Regardless of TI-Basic's ability (or lack thereof) a lot of
> stuff is being created. And there seems to be some correlation
> about complaining and creating: usually (notable exceptions do
> exist) those complaining don't create, those creating don't
> complain.
I'm one of those exceptions, though I'm more involved in TI-68k
calculators than in Nspire calculators ;)
> 5. [...]
> And yet, that's all you see showing up out there from the
> programmer communities that keep saying "give us programming power
> and we'll change the world": games. Games, games and more games.
Well, games are what make calculators desirable to end users. Plain and
simple. I saw that myself as a student.
It's the end users' loss if they play games instead of following their
classes...
> 7. Helpfulness of community forums: apart from hacking and ASM
> programming, ticalc.org's forum is almost near to useless;
~"Apart from X and Y, Z is useless": a fairly strange construct ;)
That it's not useful for your purposes does not mean that it's not
useful to somebody else. But then again, you're clearly not an end user.
> ti-bank's forum is actually useless;
Uh, that was a ridiculous demonstration of cluelessness, bad faith and
disrespect. Next time, I suggest that before posting, you just, er,
_look_ at the forum's topics ;)
Machine translation isn't great, but it's more than enough to see what
the topics look like.
Oh, and there are many other useful forums besides TI-Bank ;)
Lionel Debroux.
Ross
hasn't already been said, but I have a simple solution that TI could/
should have used when they first released the TI-Nspire: Allow for
their to be ASM/Flash/C programs on the calculator, but turn off that
functionality in the Press to Test mode. They seem to be pushing that
mode more with the TI-Nspire than with the TI-84 (probably because you
don't have to download a new app), so they could have easily solved
this "mess" with Ndless by blocking custom programs with Press to
Test. But in all honestly, while I do love the idea of writing custom
programs for calculators (I have done it so far on the TI-89 and with
Ndless), there seems to be no point in it because nothing of use
results from it. Basically, if you went through all of the ASM/Flash
programs for the TI-84, I would be surprised if you could find any
programs that were actually useful in the classroom but couldn't be
done in BASIC.
Overall, while the idea of custom programs is fun, nothing useful
results from it. (and I think this is starting the second really long
discussion/flame war that I've seen on this Google Group, but
hopefully i'm wrong)
-TJ
LET US NOT GET INTO NASTY DISCUSSIONS AND TAKE THIS ISSUE VERY CALMLY.
(I capitalized it to make it stand out. Don't say I'm yelling, because
I'm not. I am completely calm. Please do not comment about my use of
the caps. That already happened to me twice, already. I know you're
annoyed, but seriously... some people need it.)
Come on, everyone. Isn't this getting a little ridiculous? I know this
whole group is devoted into discussing about the TI-Nspire, but do we
really have to bite on each other just about a calculator? I know, I'm
sorry for saying that. Please don't comment on that.
This discussion is very messy, so I just want to clean this up a
little, to those that are having trouble understanding "the big
issue". Many people do not understand the situation. So I'm just
summarizing what I know. Please correct me if I am wrong, BUT PLEASE
DO NOT ATTACK ME. (Once again, don't comment on my use of caps. I
can't use bold or italics on here.)
Here is the issue. There are TWO sides to this matter.
CONSERVATIVES vs LIBERALS
C=Conservatives
L=Liberals
C's argument = The TI-Nspire and/or TI-Nspire CAS may become banned if
more freedom is given to the users (buyers/programmers/hobbyists).
L's argument = Users demand more functionality but Texas Instruments
Incorporated is limiting them.
Uh... I have to go! I'll finish it in a later message.
Don Shepherd
misguided.
The NSpire is, and always has been, for education. Not gaming.
People who buy the NSpire do so because of its educational value,
because it is capable of significantly enhancing the math and science
learning and experimenting process. I seriously doubt that anyone
whose interest is in gaming will buy this calculator; what would be
the point?
Since TI designed and built this calculator, I'd say they can pretty
much do whatever they want to with it in terms of protecting it from
software they didn't write. That is in their business interest, and
anyone who doesn't like that is free to take their development/hacking
skills to some other platform. I would think there are many more
attractive hacking platforms than an educational calculator.
This forum is supposed to be all about using the NSpire in education.
This thread is out-of-scope.
-TJ
not off-topic. =p
Just playing with the words...
I think... Texas Instruments can do what they want, but they should
not stop hackers from doing what they can... Because without hackers,
technology would remain vulnerable. It is because the hackers attempt
to hack whatever they can so we prevent them. Not the other way
around! =D
And can't the people who make the Ndless thing just find another way
through the OS v1.7 and get on with it? So was the OS v1.1 the only
way? Can't they make it somehow run on OS v2.1 too?
Maybe somewhy, somewho should do some of their somewhat tricks to
unlock the secret code thingy that stops the firmware thing or
whatever from installing or running a somewhat custom-made hacked-OS
somehow somewhere somewhen. XD
If an obstacle blocks a hacker's path, he/she is supposed to tackle
it; not cry about it. Am I right?
Ross
1.1 to run Ndless. However, it is different from the normal Ndless,
and that prevents it from being released right now. Currently, Ndless
is not illegal (as far as I know), so it is fine that people are using
it. However, redistributing OS 1.1 is illegal, and thats where the
legal issues come in. However, another tool called RunOS has been
developed that is basically an Ndless program that allows you to
install a new OS while maintaining Ndless. However, that is illegal
because, if I am remembering this correctly, it is similar to the
signing keys incident where TI proprietary code/technology was being
used to make it work. Hope that helps to clear some things up and
hopefully end this discussion soon, because there is already a thread
for this on another TI forum (which I can't remember now :))
Lionel Debroux
I'll start by noticing that the threshold for calling something
"flamewar" is low here, compared to the threshold for two community
forums. By those standards, Nelson's post and mine were gentle.
But just like other manufacturers locking down stuff is no excuse, that
other places are less friendly is no excuse either.
(Ross wrote)
> Well, I haven't fully read every reply so far, so I hope that this
> hasn't already been said, but I have a simple solution that TI
> could/should have used when they first released the TI-Nspire:
> Allow for their to be ASM/Flash/C programs on the calculator, but
> turn off that functionality in the Press to Test mode.
Indeed, I think that most agree that this would have been a good middle
ground between L's and Cs, in -TJ's terminology.
> I would be surprised if you could find any programs that were
> actually useful in the classroom but couldn't be done in BASIC.
For TI-68k, viewers of formatted texts (txtrider family, nowadays uView
and Hib-View) came to my mind immediately. The Nspire is different in
that aspect.
In general, yes, most math programs _can_ indeed be done in BASIC,
through the use of part() if nothing else does the job... but with a
performance hit due to the implementation of a high-level language,
instead of direct EStack manipulation based on official functions.
Direct access to the CAS functions gives more bare-bones programs,
you're limited only by the CAS itself.
(by "you're limited only by the CAS itself", I'm referring to the known
functionality limitations and sore performance spots of the CAS in AMS:
* the HP-49 / TI-89 comparison;
* Samuel Stearley's programs int2str, fastlist and the hail equation
writer, where he had to rewrite multiple routines that are slow in AMS;
* some workarounds in Kevin Kofler's gosper program.)
Years ago, I contributed to Mathtools a C reimplementation of MathTools'
BASIC implementation of Aitken's delta^2 algorithm, with a similar
footprint but higher performance. Where the TI-BASIC program needs to
call some form of sum on a list and create a temporary variable (eating
more memory), the C program can just call ROM_CALL_519
replace_top2_with_sum until there are 4 elements left.
(-TJ wrote)
> And can't the people who make the Ndless thing just find another
> way through the OS v1.7 and get on with it?
They have publicly demonstrated proofs of concept, months ago ;)
> So was the OS v1.1 the only way?
No.
> If an obstacle blocks a hacker's path, he/she is supposed to
> tackle it;
That's what we did for the TI-Z80 and TI-68k series, and keep doing for
the Nspire series :)
> not cry about it. Am I right?
Tackling the obstacles and complaining that they exist in the first
place are not mutually exclusive.
(Ross wrote)
> However, another tool called RunOS has been developed that is
> basically an Ndless program that allows you to install a new OS while
> maintaining Ndless.
What was demonstrated was the proof of concept for starting OS 1.7
non-CAS from OS 1.1 CAS.
(Ross wrote)
> However, that is illegal because, if I am remembering this correctly,
> it is similar to the signing keys incident where TI proprietary
> code/technology was being used to make it work.
Not sure what you're referring to: all TI-Z80 and TI-68k signing keys we
factored are stored in clear binary (no obfuscation or encryption), and
numbers can't be copyrighted.
Lionel.
hastern
inaccurate dig at the TI83+.
Samuel Lepetit
Nelson Sousa
Eric Findlay
what they're looking to do, they should get an 83 or 84, or they could
do ASM for their home computer (a little dangerous, though). There are
other options out there, not just the Nspire.
--
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor
demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither
height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to
separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
- Romans 8:38-39 (NIV)
--
Eric Findlay
AKA Eagle-Man
On 22/07/2010 4:17 PM, Nelson Sousa wrote:
>
> For a fringe of the student population, it is. One can also claim that
> quantum mechanics is part of education and I wouldn't dream of teaching
> it to everybody, much less expect a school calculator to be able to
> compute approximations of the Schr�dinger's equation or include
> functions increasing and decreasing differential operators on wave
> functions of harmonic oscilators (for those of you not familiar with
> physics, this is about week 2 of the first course on QM I took).
>
> Cheers,
> Nelson
>
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 22:20, Samuel Lepetit <gsa...@gmail.com
> <mailto:gsa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Well, don't you think that ASM programming is part of education too ?
>
> On Jul 21, 12:40 am, Don Shepherd <sheph...@iglou.com
> <mailto:sheph...@iglou.com>> wrote:
> > The NSpire is, and always has been, for education. Not gaming.
>
> --
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> The tns documents shared by group members are archived at
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>
>
> --
> To post to this group, send email to tins...@googlegroups.com
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> The tns documents shared by group members are archived at
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>
>
>
>
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>
Wayne
point. I can see little need to hack the Nspire in order to play
games or for any other purposes. The calculator's primary use is and
should remain to improve the educational outcome in high school and
early undergraduate curricula.
Having said that, however, I don't want us to discourage TI from
adding new advanced mathematical features to the Nspire even though
the new features may not be needed for the calculator's primary use.
There is a community of users (probably quite small) that wants TI to
continue to add such new features to the Nspire. I count myself in
that group. Some of the advanced features that could be easily added
are a more complete set of special functions (Legendre, Bessel, Airy,
and many others). Some of these could even help with the solution of
wave equations (grin). There are also many linear algebra functions
that would be helpful for 2nd and 3rd year undergraduates (and even
beyond). Certain direct and inverse transforms would also be nice for
differential equations and other sciences. So far, we must rely on
coding such functions in BASIC, obtain them from third parties such as
TI-Univers, or take our chances with sometime unreliable sites such as
TI-calc. Right now, TI is ideally positioned to continue in that
direction, even as the existing educational uses are also enhanced.
The acquisition of Derive has given TI all the necessary code to
continue to enhance the advanced mathematical capabilities of the
Nspire. I, for one, want to encourage TI to continue to enhance the
Nspire in that direction.
Wayne
On 22 July, 19:17, Nelson Sousa <nso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For a fringe of the student population, it is. One can also claim that
> quantum mechanics is part of education and I wouldn't dream of teaching it
> to everybody, much less expect a school calculator to be able to compute
> approximations of the Schrödinger's equation or include functions increasing
> and decreasing differential operators on wave functions of harmonic
> oscilators (for those of you not familiar with physics, this is about week 2
> of the first course on QM I took).
>
> Cheers,
> Nelson
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 22:20, Samuel Lepetit <gsam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Well, don't you think that ASM programming is part of education too ?
>
> > On Jul 21, 12:40 am, Don Shepherd <sheph...@iglou.com> wrote:
> > > The NSpire is, and always has been, for education. Not gaming.
>
> > --
> > To post to this group, send email to tins...@googlegroups.com
> >http://groups.google.com.au/group/tinspire?hl=en-GB?hl=en-GB
> > The tns documents shared by group members are archived at
>
> - Show quoted text -
Eric Findlay
can (as you stated) simply be put into a program/function, and stored in
a library so it is accessible from all documents?
I think the library functionality better accommodates the people who
want to extend the functionality of the OS better than the 83/84 family
ever did, since you still had to scroll to the program name to run it
(even with ASM programs).
--
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor
demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither
height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to
separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
- Romans 8:38-39 (NIV)
--
Eric Findlay
AKA Eagle-Man
>> approximations of the Schr�dinger's equation or include functions increasing
>> and decreasing differential operators on wave functions of harmonic
>> oscilators (for those of you not familiar with physics, this is about week 2
>> of the first course on QM I took).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nelson
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 22:20, Samuel Lepetit<gsam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well, don't you think that ASM programming is part of education too ?
>>
>>> On Jul 21, 12:40 am, Don Shepherd<sheph...@iglou.com> wrote:
>>>> The NSpire is, and always has been, for education. Not gaming.
>>
>>> --
>>> To post to this group, send email to tins...@googlegroups.com
>>> To unsubscribe send email to tinspire+u...@googlegroups.com<tinspire%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.c�om>
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com.au/group/tinspire?hl=en-GB?hl=en-GB
>>> The tns documents shared by group members are archived at
>>> http://lafacroft.com/archive/nspire.php- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>
>
Wayne
You are right, those functions can be put in libraries and that is the
approach that I have used so far with the TI89 and the Nspire.
However there are advantages to putting them in the OS.
The main advantage for putting them in the OS is the support that TI
would give and the commonality of function. That is a big advantage
for those like me who have limited programming skills. I have
implemented all the functions that I mentioned (and many more), have
tested them against Maple and Mathematica, and have found no problems
with my implementations. Nevertheless, I would never release them to
the general public because I fear that my limited programming skills
and the lack of input checks and other best programming practices
would lead to many problems in supporting the libraries. TI, with its
accomplished programmers, could provide that kind of support. Derive
had a very good set of advanced functions and that would also save
developers a lot of time and TI a lot of money in bringing the
functions to the OS. Just my 2 cents. These are just the things that
I have on my personal wish list. TI will, of course, have to make a
business decision about what to put in the system. I love the
platform and I really want Nspire (handheld and computer) to rival
Mathcad and other mathematical software in capability while retaining
the acknowledged industry-leading educational capability.
Wayne
> >>>http://groups.google.com.au/group/tinspire?hl=en-GB?hl=en-GB
> >>> The tns documents shared by group members are archived at
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG -www.avg.com
Eric Findlay
save developers a lot of time and TI a lot of money in bringing the
functions to the OS."
Only if it's in the same/similar instruction set, which, since it was a
PC program, it's most likely not. Not saying it's not possible, but I'd
wager it's not as easy/simple as you imply.
--
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor
demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither
height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to
separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
- Romans 8:38-39 (NIV)
--
Eric Findlay
AKA Eagle-Man
Wayne
Maybe I am reading you incorrectly, but it seems you are trying to
pick an argument. I am definitely not going to participate. Let me
reiterate, I love the Nspire, and prefer it to any of the
alternatives.
How could anyone be opposed to adding these features to the Nspire,
while maintaining its current capability?
Wayne
On 22 July, 22:16, Eric Findlay <eagle-...@duetsoftware.net> wrote:
> "Derive had a very good set of advanced functions and that would also
> save developers a lot of time and TI a lot of money in bringing the
> functions to the OS."
>
> Only if it's in the same/similar instruction set, which, since it was a
> PC program, it's most likely not. Not saying it's not possible, but I'd
> wager it's not as easy/simple as you imply.
>
> --
> For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor
> demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither
> height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to
> separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> - Romans 8:38-39 (NIV)
> --
> Eric Findlay
> AKA Eagle-Man
>
> On 22/07/2010 7:01 PM, Wayne wrote:
>
>
>
> > Derive
> > had a very good set of advanced functions and that would also save
> > developers a lot of time and TI a lot of money in bringing the
Eric Findlay
I'm not opposed to adding those functions. However, you're implying
that to save money and time, they could simply take the Derive code and
put it in the Nspire OS.
As an experienced programmer, I can tell you that it wouldn't
necessarily be that easy. They would need to make sure that every
command and every line of code is compatible with the Nspire OS. And if
it's not, they need to rewrite it so that it is. This could easily take
as much time as writing it from scratch. It would probably be wiser for
them to take the Derive algorithms and write the Nspire code for them
from scratch.
--
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor
demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither
height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to
separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
- Romans 8:38-39 (NIV)
--
Eric Findlay
AKA Eagle-Man
Wayne
Sorry if I misread your intention.
What you say here about using the Derive algorithms is exactly what I
meant. Not being a programmer (I get by in high level languages
only), I was not precise enough in my earlier post. I just want the
easiest method for the developers to add the functions. If the
developers can reuse the code, that is great. If not, then I would
want them to use the algorithms and develop their own code in order to
bring the functions to the system as easily as possible.
Mainly, I just want to encourage TI to continue to bring additional
mathematical capability to the system in order to be competitive in
the mathematical software space. In other words, I want my cake and
to eat it too -- the educational capability (and the other things I
like about the calculator) plus great mathematical software.
Wayne
Eric Findlay
--
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor
demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither
height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to
separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
- Romans 8:38-39 (NIV)
--
Eric Findlay
AKA Eagle-Man
-TJ
Peace is restored, once more.
Lionel Debroux
> And why do they have to learn ASM on the Nspire? If that's what
> they're looking to do, they should get an 83 or 84, or they could
> do ASM for their home computer (a little dangerous, though).
One of the possible educative reasons is that the ARM ISA is a modern
ISA, rather nice and easy to learn.
The 8-bit Z80 and the 16/32-bit 68000 are little used in the real world
nowadays; the x86 / x86_64 is more complicated than Z80, 68000 and ARM
as an introduction to ASM programming.
Lionel.
Nelson Sousa
--
Andy Kemp
mrmusolf
argument. Agree to disagree and move on. This degrades the purpose
of this group. I read this for learning about using the Nspire in my
classroom. Let's get back to the core purpose.
On Jul 19, 10:51 am, hastern <hast...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/1996.png
Lionel Debroux
by Samuel Lepetit, Nelson Sousa and Eric Findlay seemingly focused on
assembly language proper (at least, that's how I understood them)... but
reading the discussion again, I'm not sure "ASM" is referring to the
exact same thing in all our respective minds ?
For short: most TI-68k & Nspire "ASM programs" are /not/ "programs whose
source code is written in assembly language".
The 68000 and ARM instruction sets are, unlike the Z80, well suited to
running the result of the compilation of higher-level languages
(especially C) to machine code. In the majority of TI-68k and Nspire
"ASM programs", there's a majority of C code, and a minority of assembly
language code (if at all).
I agree with mostly everybody: C is a better choice than assembly
language for both education and production use, for multiple reasons
(only to mention a few: gentler learning curve, lower development and
debugging time, better inherent portability although it's easy to write
C code in a non-portable way). I started with C myself, not with
assembly language.
Assembly language is directly or indirectly used to build things upon,
but directly read and written by a minority of people indeed, as
outlined by Nelson. Besides OS-level stuff (obviously), time-critical
code in CPU-intensive computations (math / gfx / sound / etc. code
kernels) after algorithmic optimization, severely resource-constrained
platforms, and such niches, remain best done (partially) in assembly
language.
Lionel.
Nelson Sousa
Lionel.
Steve Phelps
smart.
On Jul 23, 9:28 am, Nelson Sousa <nso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> in my posts, please read ASM = Assembly.
>
Ross
ASM programs are games or programs that could be written in BASIC),
TI's decision to not support ASM from the get-go is a major problem.
In case TI didn't realize this, a lot of devices, whether it be
calculators or iPhones, will be hacked to run 3rd party code. When
this happens, the parent company can't really control what happens
with those programs because no matter how many patches are put out to
try and prevent it, there will always be a workaround. This could
possibly lead to calculators being banned on standardized testing.
However, if they supported ASM programs from the start, they could
control what happened with them, such as turning off the ability to
use them in Press-to-Test mode.
Just to reiterate, while ASM programs are completely unnecessary, it
was a bad choice on TI not to support it like with the TI-83/84/89.
Daniel Dudley
I get so frustrated sometimes, that kids put more energy into trying to get around doing work than they would have if they just did the work. It seems that people are spending way too much time trying to hack the nspire and could spend their time on more productive pursuits. Leave it alone, it does what I need it to do and I would be more than a little annoyed if IB came out and said that it is no longer allowed on their exams because of some ridiculous hack that happened to compromise validity of the calculator.
I can only imagine what TI could put out if they weren't limited by the demands of the testing agencies.
If these groups want to do it better then get together pool resources and make their own calculator, make the code open source and then try to market it in a world where kids and schools will only buy what is approved by testing agencies.
My thoughts,
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: tins...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tins...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Findlay
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:38 PM
To: tins...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [tinspire] Re: we made it to xkcd
I agree. And why do they have to learn ASM on the Nspire? If that's
what they're looking to do, they should get an 83 or 84, or they could
do ASM for their home computer (a little dangerous, though). There are
other options out there, not just the Nspire.
--
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor
demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither
height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to
separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
- Romans 8:38-39 (NIV)
--
Eric Findlay
AKA Eagle-Man
On 22/07/2010 4:17 PM, Nelson Sousa wrote:
>
> For a fringe of the student population, it is. One can also claim that
> quantum mechanics is part of education and I wouldn't dream of teaching
> it to everybody, much less expect a school calculator to be able to
> compute approximations of the Schrödinger's equation or include
-TJ
This is getting really useless...
Moderator, we need your help! Close this discussion. Please?
Where is Rex?
hastern
How'sabout we leave the thread open and just tell people to stop
looking at it if it bothers them.
tmb
Michael Ball
number of apps that replicate the clear screen for the 83-84 series
models. For standardized testing, at least with College Board, they
don't care what's on your calculator and trust that you won't save
anything. However, in the classroom, many teachers are increasingly
more and more worried to the point where they don't fully understand
all the problems with graphing calculators and don't want to allow
them. I think not being able to use them in a class is what's more
harmful. And I don't mean because of the solve functions or things on
the CAS models (which should be reserved for higher classes), but for
the ways which they can quickly and accurately allow you to experiment
and figure things out. Plus, the advantage of seeing what I typed in
when my answer doesn't make sense has always been invaluable. :)
On Jul 20, 10:14 am, Andy Kemp <a...@1kemp.co.uk> wrote:
> I think you may have missed the point as in part this conversation was about
> TI locking the Nspire down to prevent downgrading to install things like Ndless
> which would in theory (and in time) provide support for these kind of band
> apps which could provide CAS abilities to the Numerical Nspire and replicate
> the look of the Press to Test mode therefore endangering its use in high
> stakes testing...
>
> As you rightly point out CAS things written in TI-Basic are disabled with in
> P2T mode so they are not a problem...
>
> Don't get me wrong though I think it would be great to have a more fully
> fledged programming option for the Nspire!
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Xavier Andréani <andre...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > But unlike TI-z80 and TI-68k, the TI-Nspire doesn't support apps...
> > Or,did I miss the point?
>
> > By the way, standard TI Nspire Basic programs with more or less advanced
> > CAS engines allready exist.
> > As the TI-Nspire is a close platform, those programs are slow but they do
> > exist and are totally legal, as they didn't require any hacking and can be
> > disabled in "testing mode".
>
> > ------------------------------
> > From: nso...@gmail.com
> > Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:48:46 +0100
> > Subject: Re: [tinspire] Re: we made it to xkcd
>
> > CAS apps appearing for the numeric Nspire, causing it to be banned from
> > standardized testing. Especially because different countries have different
> > requirements; you may or may not agree with them, but those are the
> > requirements one must live with. In some countries there's a list of
> > authorized models which is decided by a committee. If that committee decided
> > that Nspire's are "dangerous" because CAS applications are out there it's
> > banned.
>
> > Nelson
>
> > On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 17:41, Xavier Andréani <andre...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> > >The only way testing agencies will be happy to allow a graphical
> > calculator to be used is if they are confident they understand what it can
> > and can't do. If we start getting custom firmware for the Npsire which
> > enables CAS style features then many of these exam groups will just say the
> > Nspire cannot be used anymore...
>
> > No custom firmware does exist for the TI-Nspire for now, and that's
> > impossible in the near future.
> > The only way to install a custom firmware on a TI-Nspire, is to factor the
> > 1024-bits RSA public key into two great prime numbers.
>
> > So what are you afraid of ?
>
> > ------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:07:33 +0100
> > To: tins...@googlegroups.com
>
> > I think the point that was missed was that if TI were not seen to be
> > preventing access to custom OS on the handheld then they run a serious risk
> > of being blocked by testing agencies...
>
> > Just look at what happened to the HP-39G which was banned after someone
> > discovered a hack to enable to CAS functions...
>
> > The only way testing agencies will be happy to allow a graphical calculator
> > to be used is if they are confident they understand what it can and can't
> > do. If we start getting custom firmware for the Npsire which enables CAS
> > style features then many of these exam groups will just say the Nspire
> > cannot be used anymore...
>
> > On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 1:58 PM, Luke Setzer <LutherSet...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> > "(most people in the /. comments *completely* missed the point, but
> > whatever)"
>
> > What was the point they completely missed?
> > To unsubscribe send email to tinspire+u...@googlegroups.com<tinspire%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.c om>
> >http://groups.google.com.au/group/tinspire?hl=en-GB?hl=en-GB
> > The tns documents shared by group members are archived at
> >http://lafacroft.com/archive/nspire.php
>
> > --
> > To post to this group, send email to tins...@googlegroups.com
> >http://groups.google.com.au/group/tinspire?hl=en-GB?hl=en-GB
> > The tns documents shared by group members are archived at
> >http://lafacroft.com/archive/nspire.php
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>
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Brendan Fletcher
> 5. As soon as Ndless was published the first thing that appeared (and so far
> the only one that is not a proof of concept or demo) was a Gameboy emulator,
> just a port from other gameboy emulators, and ported versions of gameboy
> games. Besides the skill required to hack Nspire OS and create Ndless and
> the skill required (in a much lesser extent) to port the gameboy emulator,
> where's the skill in getting yet another gameboy game running on an
> emulator? And yet, that's all you see showing up out there from the
> programmer communities that keep saying "give us programming power and we'll
> change the world": games. Games, games and more games. All different
> platform games ever invented, all shoot-em-up games ever invented.
> Unfortunately, you almost never see a really original game ever being
> developed or a really original tool that is not simply a port from something
> else. And that's where the true skill is. Programming is much, much more
> than knowing how to code and port.
Excuse me, but as the writer of that Gameboy emulator, I can't just
let this comment go. I did not port that software in any way. I wrote
it myself in ARM assembly (which you would know if you had paid
attention to the one-line description on ticalc). In fact, I started
working on it months before Ndless was released. You say this takes no
skill? Considering our (still) limited knowledge of the TI-Nspire
hardware, the fact that the emulator can run many times faster than a
real Gameboy, and that I was able to finish it right as Ndless came
out, I'd say this is a nice programming feat. I was eager to make sure
the Nspire assembly archives wouldn't be completely without good
software after the hack. Frankly, it's exciting to be a software
pioneer.
More recently, I've been working on a TI-83+ family emulator that
should blow TI's official TI-84 emulator out of the water. You say
assembly programming is useless? That is not the case when you need to
parse millions of emulated low-level instructions per second. My
emulator runs so fast when I remove the speed limitations that it auto-
powers down in 8 seconds. Function graphing becomes almost instant.
Compatibility can be re-established with existing TI-83+ programs,
which will not happen in TI's emulator because they simply don't care.
The main hindrance to my work (aside from the fact that I lost my
source code, which I plan to restore soon) is that I can't figure out
how to activate the TI-84 keypad link port. If TI actually supported
assembly/C development, that would be no problem whatsoever. But
nonetheless, I'm sure we'll eventually figure out all the mysteries of
this hardware. Because we have true skill.
Don Shepherd
programmer, but let's get real for a minute. A pioneer? Let me tell
you about some real pioneers in this industry.
Eckert and Mauchly, who invented ENIAC, the first real computer.
The guy who developed the first assembler, so programmers wouldn't
have to flip switches and code in zeroes and ones.
John Backus, inventor of FORTRAN, so scientific programmers could
write programs in a natural, algebraic language.
Grace Hopper, inventor of COBOL, who did for business programs what
John Backus did for scientific programs.
Professors Kemeny and Kurtz at Dartmouth, inventors of BASIC, one of
the most successful programming languages ever.
Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston, inventors of the spreadsheet Visicalc,
probably THE most useful piece of software ever.
Ed Roberts, who invented the personal computer.
Bill Gates, developer of BASIC on the Altair, not to mention
Microsoft.
Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, inventors of the Apple ][, that gave
many of us a start in this field.
These guys (and Grace) were true pioneers. What have you done?
Emulated other people's ideas and products. Like I said, you may be a
decent programmer, but you're no pioneer.
Brendan Fletcher
But in any case I was talking specifically about this platform. I came
into the 83+/84+ programming scene once much of the software that
could be made was made already. But now I have my hands on a platform
that has almost no software completed yet, and I feel like I am one of
the people leading the way. There are almost endless possibilities,
especially considering the massive difference in hardware specs when
compared to the 83+.
Don Shepherd
I see (and agree with) what you are saying about the endless
possibilities of the NSpire platform. But what the NSpire could
benefit from is not games, but useful applications that enhance its
educational function. For example, a few years ago a company came out
with ZoomAlgebra and ZoomMath for the TI-84. That was a great
product, and I got it and used it and found it very well written and
it served a legitimate purpose in the classroom. All the thousands of
games that have been written for the TI-83 and 84 series have no real
educational value, and that is probably one reason why TI chose to
limit the capability of the NSpire regarding app development. Now, if
you have an idea for an app that will enhance the NSpire's purpose of
teaching kids about math and science, you should approach TI with that
idea and see if there is a way to implement it. I would hope they
would be willing to listen, but I guess it's up to them. I think if
they believed it might sell more NSpires they would be interested.
Bottom line: the NSpire doesn't need games, it needs apps that
enhance it's real purpose which is to educate kids in math and
science. If you intend to work toward that goal, more power to you
and I wish you luck. I'd love to see something revolutionary along
the lines of ZoomAlgebra (but the NSpire already has most if not all
ZoomAlgebra features built-in, so you'll have to think outside the
box).
If you were into hardware development, you could make a real
contribution by making the NSpire screen easier to read. I have to
use a flashlight to actually see what is on the screen most of the
time. Now THAT is something we could all benefit from! I hope TI is
working on that issue.
-TJ
You say that the you were able to finish something "right as Ndless
came out... [You were] eager to make sure the Nspire assembly archives
Why couldn't you have made something more "educational" or practical?
Your Gameboy emulator is useless to educators and worst of all, it
came out "right as Ndless came out."
That was Nelson Sousa's main argument!
Your "true skill" was used to make games... That's a fact.
Texas Instruments is trying to take control for a good cause; so that
"pioneers" like you wouldn't ruin the platform.
Sincerely,
-TJ
Lionel Debroux
> You say that the you were able to finish something "right as Ndless
> came out... [You were] eager to make sure the Nspire assembly
> archives wouldn't be completely without good software after
> the hack".
>
> But what makes your Gameboy emulator some "good software"?
That it's a technical achievement and that it's of some interest to a
number of users, say ?
> Why couldn't you have made something more "educational" or practical?
In the case of such a completely closed and undocumented piece of
hardware and software as the Nspire is, making something more
"educational", as you say, would have required _vastly_ more
reverse-engineering. That's an excellent reason.
The Nspire is currently in a situation comparable to that of the 92 in
its early days: pioneers of the platform had to find their way into the
OS (which was about three times smaller than the Nspire 1.1 OS and five
times smaller than the Nspire 2.x OS) to extract, or duplicate, useful
functionality, which couldn't be used so easily due to lack of a jump
table. This eventually led to Fargo.
Later, with other models of the TI-68k series, TI started exporting a
jump table, which grew over time, and made C/ASM programs (games
_first_, "educational" programs _later_ !) easier. Most of the additions
in later AMS versions are FlashApp-oriented or CAS-oriented, games don't
need them. It wasn't before 1999, with AMS 2.02, that the most useful
CAS routines were exported - and several additions to that set (e.g.
push_substitute_simplify, push_substitute_using_such_that) appeared in
AMS 2.04 and 2.05, in 2000.
And some oddities remain, like not exporting the XOR function directly,
while OR, AND and NOT have all been directly exported. The XOR function
does exist, and is used internally by AMS; it can be reached through
primary_tag_list.
Sadly, over the decade, TI changed sides again, and produced a piece of
closed software and hardware with an even worse screen than that of
previous models...
> Your Gameboy emulator is useless to educators and worst of all, it
> came out "right as Ndless came out."
> That was Nelson Sousa's main argument!
> Your "true skill" was used to make games... That's a fact.
You're coming back to an earlier part of the discussion between
especially Nelson and I:
* on the one hand, it's a cold hard fact that there are many more games
than science programs, on both the TI-Z80 family and the TI-68k family;
* on the other hand, it's another cold hard fact that being able to
access lower-level functions from assembly programs (whose source code
is usually written in C or ASM) does help making science programs. I
gave several examples, one of which I experienced myself.
And TI is, in the opinion of the open community, making a ("large" or
"small", it depends on one's side in the matter) disservice to users
(obviously), but to teachers as well, by trying to forbid that.
> Texas Instruments is trying to take control for a good cause;
At least, in the opinion of the minority of people that teachers are ;)
> so that "pioneers" like you wouldn't ruin the platform.
Pfft. That's trying to prevent the inevitable. As you should know by
looking at computing history, virtually all platforms are hackable, it's
a matter of time, skill, and sometimes equipment (e.g. the first Xbox hack).
All the more the people at TI have been notoriously bad for a decade at
making secure hardware and code on TI-Z80 and TI-68k platforms - and, on
the Nspire, as demonstrated by Ndless and Nleash, they keep doing so.
The only efficient protection they made in the Nspire was compressing
the boot2 with an uncommon format. This defeated efforts in opening the
underwhelming machine for nearly three years. Very soon after the boot2
compression fell and revealed ARM machine code, the OS was decrypted -
and from there, it took a short amount of time to get a proof of concept
of arbitrary code execution, which eventually became Ndless 1.
When the PTT LED has been tampered with, or when some form of CAS is
running on the non-CAS Nspire (the 89T CAS, or the Nspire CAS - as
mentioned earlier in the discussion, running the non-CAS OS on the CAS
Nspire was publicly demonstrated, and there doesn't seem to be
significant technical hurdles in doing the opposite), TI won't be happy
- but at the root cause, it will be _their_ own fault. As I wrote, TI's
behaviour is making it _more_, not less, likely that this happens.
Lionel.
Luke Setzer
> Bottom line: the NSpire doesn't need games, it needs apps that
> enhance it's real purpose which is to educate kids in math and
> science. If you intend to work toward that goal, more power to you
> and I wish you luck. I'd love to see something revolutionary along
> the lines of ZoomAlgebra (but the NSpire already has most if not all
> ZoomAlgebra features built-in, so you'll have to think outside the
> box).
work on the TI-Nspire!
Olivier A.
> > enhance it's real purpose which is to educate kids in math and
> > science. If you intend to work toward that goal, more power to you
> > and I wish you luck. I'd love to see something revolutionary along
> > the lines of ZoomAlgebra (but the NSpire already has most if not all
> > ZoomAlgebra features built-in, so you'll have to think outside the
> > box).
>
> I would love to see the TI-89 EEPro and MEPro applications adapted to
> work on the TI-Nspire!
make such software possible on the TI-Nspire in the near future.
Third-party development doesn't mean games development. As the
maintainer of Ndless I did not add any feature specifically for games.
But although you may not be interested by Brendan's current projects,
third-party educational software can only become a reality with the
help of such advanced programs, which help us find system calls, I/O
ports and hardware characteristics, and define development practices.
-- Olivier Armand
Nelson Sousa
--
To post to this group, send email to tins...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe send email to tinspire+u...@googlegroups.com
Olivier A.
programming language?
-- Olivier Armand
Wayne
are the lack of accuracy, trustworthiness and support. There are many
thrid-party mathematical programs for the TI89 and TI92 hardware that
are published on ticalc.org and other websites by well-known
developers in the third party community. Many of these programs are
not needed because they duplicate built-in OS capabililty, are
inaccurate and vulnerable to random failures, or are mathematically
wrong in their entirety. An experienced mathematician can test these
products and determine which should be trusted and which should be
discarded. Unfortunately, the majority of the people who download
these third party programs are not equipped to make that
determination. As a result, inexperienced users download these
programs and think they are getting mathematically sound answers from
them.
If TI retains control of the development of applications, we can
expect at least some level of trustworthiness and support from TI. If
third party developers of mathematical or educational programs commit
to that same level of accuracy and trustworthiness of their creations
or to support their programs if they are found to be otherwise, then I
say let them have at it. If they not willing to support their
creations properly, then control of the platform should remain with
TI. In my experience, most third-part developers do not commit to the
accuracy and trustworthiness of their programs or to their support if
found to be mathematically wrong in some manner.
Wayne
Nelson Sousa
Ok, like, what the f*ck? Our math programs are all unstable, where did
that peice of s*it come from? They replicate what the OS does? I dont
think so, the quad solver app created by ti is worth nothing, the
ones I find on ticalc are much better!
[quote] An experienced mathematician can test these
products and determine which should be trusted and which should be
discarded. Unfortunately, the majority of the people who download
these third party programs are not equipped to make that
determination. As a result, inexperienced users download these
programs and think they are getting mathematically sound answers from
them.[/quote]
I am a user sometimes and I find most of the math prgms very stable,
useful, accurate, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Xavier Andréani
> are the lack of accuracy, trustworthiness and support.
Alec Szigeti
inaccurate. Good job wade, because I happen to use some of those
programs for my nspire.
Nelson Sousa
Marc Garneau
chances of productive and fruitful discussion from it have crossed the
low-point threshold. For those who think they have an audience to
their continued postings on this topic, I for one, am no longer in
that audience and will not read another message of it. I suspect that
tons of members have already made that decision already, and I
encourage others to do the same.
Signing off,
Marc
Pamela D Baker
I would like to thank all of the programmers for the Nspire, their programs will be making my classroom a more student centered environment. I understand the programming of the Nspire but do not have the time to invest to create such dynamic and powerful teaching tools. I agree with Marc and Nelson that this thread should die. This argument is not getting any of us anywhere. While I enjoy teaching circles in Geometry, it is not pleasant to be reading these posts that are just going in circles.
Pamela Baker
Fayetteville High School
Fayetteville, AR
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Alec Szigeti
way... Typical, next time you basj us programmers, please try not to
troll and make reasonable arguements.
On Aug 3, 6:00 pm, Pamela D Baker <pamela.ba...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I would like to thank all of the programmers for the Nspire, their programs will be making my classroom a more student centered environment. I understand the programming of the Nspire but do not have the time to invest to create such dynamic and powerful teaching tools. I agree with Marc and Nelson that this thread should die. This argument is not getting any of us anywhere. While I enjoy teaching circles in Geometry, it is not pleasant to be reading these posts that are just going in circles.
>
> Pamela Baker
> Fayetteville High School
> Fayetteville, AR
>
> > > >http://groups.google.com.au/group/tinspire?hl=en-GB?hl=en-GB
> > > > The tns documents shared by group members are archived at
> > > >http://lafacroft.com/archive/nspire.php
>
> --
> To post to this group, send email to tins...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com.au/group/tinspire?hl=en-GB?hl=en-GB
-TJ
Well if the moderator doesn't do anything, then I will.
I will declare this thread/discussion closed.
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[[ THIS THREAD IS OFFICIALLY CLOSED! ]]
FURTHER CONTINUING THIS THREAD IS NOT PERMITTED!
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS OR ANY OTHER MESSAGE IN THIS DISCUSSION.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO CONTINUE ARGUING, DO SO *PRIVATELY*!
[DO NOT COMMENT ON MY USE OF CAPITAL LETTERS EITHER!]
Rex Boggs
may find a topic irrelevant, others may not. And, as Marc says below, if there is a thread that
you no longer wish to read, then don't read posts with that subject.
But I also insist on courteous professional discussion on this list, and some posts on this thread
are pushing the boundaries in this area.
Finally, the purpose of the list is for us to share our ideas and experiences on how to improve the
teaching and learning of Maths and Science through the use of the TI-Nspire calculator. While I
have found the discussion on this thread to be informative, the thread only marginally addresses
this purpose.
Cheers
Rex
tinspire list moderator