Moving orchestras out of the pit
Paul Garrity
Jeremy Lee
I once did a show in which a 5 piece band played along with tracks in a trailer in the parking lot. 2 keys, guitar, bass, and drums. Even the drums were electronic. No mics. Crazy to be able to have a cup of tea and a normal conversation with the MD while a band is playing a rock musical. Just the thump of the keys, a twang of a guitar string and a tick tick of sticks on pads.
It makes the whole performance seem somehow less alive.
On Mar 24, 2012, at 10:20 AM, Paul Garrity wrote:
> NY Times piece on remote orchestras.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/arts/music/moving-orchestras-out-of-sight-maybe-even-out-of-the-theater.html
--
Jeremy Lee
Sound Designer, NYC - USA 829
http://www.jjlee.com
Justice Bigler
-Justice C. Bigler
sound technician
Tulsa Performing Arts Center
--
To create a new topic, send a message directly to theatre-sound-list at googlegroups dot com -- please do NOT reply to an older message and change the subject line!
Take a minute to edit unnecessary text out of your reply. Non-theatre-sound topics should be via private email. To unsubscribe or set your delivery options, see the web page: http://groups.google.com/group/theatre-sound-list
Dave Stevens
> Date: Sat, March 24, 2012 7:20 am
> To: "'theatre-s...@googlegroups.com'"
> <theatre-s...@googlegroups.com>
>
>
> NY Times piece on remote orchestras.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/arts/music/moving-orchestras-out-of-sight-maybe-even-out-of-the-theater.html
Our show was designed with two music studio two levels below what we
consider to be the theater or "casino' or "100". Main floor basically.
Other shows from this producer and designer have done similar designs.
We have musicians appear onstage playing their parts at various times,
in costume when on stage.
This quote from the AFM guy stood out for me.
“There is no way the quality of the sound is as good over
amplification speakers,” said Tino Gagliardi, president of Local 802
of the American Federation of Musicians. “By not seeing a
conductor’s head in the pit, or a pit itself, theatergoers may also be
left wondering if the music is even live or whether it’s simply
recorded.”
First, starting at his comment about the audience not knowing, we've
found that to be the case. Many are surprised when the find out only
the choir and orchestra parts are tracks and there is an 8 piece band
playing live. Due to the highly technical nature of the show we need
that because at times pre setting fo the next tableau (that's "act" for
my English speaking colleagues...) so they may need to vamp for 30 secs
to 2 mins.
Second, the comment about the sound not being as good is strictly
opinion, or as I would call it when I toured, prior to therapy (likely
because I toured too long...) ;-) ) it's pure, unadulterated bullshit.
The quality can be as good or better though some theater purists, or
union reps with ulterior motives may not see it that way. In the case
of the show of which I'm on it's part designer, part mixer (the designer
had a music mixer help craft the base mix) and a metric assload of Waves
plug ins to supplant the toy dynamic processing in the Matrix 300
frames. Though there are placesin the mix with whichI disagree on the
artistic presentation, it sounds pretty damn good. Good enough people
think it's a pre mixed track.
Having a remote band in many situations can be a good situations. IN my
study of Zen it find one particular quote from Suzuki (the Bodhisattva,
not the motor vehicle....)
“If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything, it is open to
everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in
the expert's mind there are few. ”
Dave
Darren R. Sussman
is a lot of ignorance of what we do shown throughout it. First of all,
audiences have come to expect a certain sound, and that sound is most often
created in the studio and not live. Therefore, most audience members would
probably disagree with the AFM guy and say that the unamplified sound is
not, in fact, as good as a properly mixed pit orchestra. Not only that, but
audiences expect modern musicals to be loud and "in your face" (in general).
Having the orchestra visible or live in the room or whatever is, as we all
know, often a detriment to achieving that sound that the directors,
producers and audiences expect us to create. But someone who has no
understanding of what it is we do will of course make those comments because
they just don't know any better.
As Dave said, the only part I can agree with is that audiences often don't
recognize the difference between properly amplified, non-visible orchestras
and pre-recorded tracks. That doesn't mean that they like the live
orchestra sound better, mind you. It just means they can't tell the
difference, which means we are doing a very good job of making them sound
"correct".
Darren R. Sussman
Owner
Reid Sound, Inc.
dar...@reidsound.com
(609) 259-9495 x301 - ph
(609) 858-7434 - fax
Paul Garrity
I know of at least one cirque du soleil production in las vegas that uses a remote orchestra in a basement studio as well.
------Original Message------
From: Justice Bigler
Sender: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
To: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
ReplyTo: theatre-s...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [theatre-sound-list] Moving orchestras out of the pit
Sent: Mar 24, 2012 12:21 PM
Maybe eventually we'll end up having the actors in a remote location and just projecting them on a screen or something.... -Justice C. Bigler sound technician Tulsa Performing Arts Center On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Jeremy Lee <jer...@jjlee.com> wrote: Sad that this has made its way to B'way. I once did a show in which a 5 piece band played along with tracks in a trailer in the parking lot. 2 keys, guitar, bass, and drums. Even the drums were electronic. No mics. Crazy to be able to have a cup of tea and a normal conversation with the MD while a band is playing a rock musical. Just the thump of the keys, a twang of a guitar string and a tick tick of sticks on pads. It makes the whole performance seem somehow less alive. On Mar 24, 2012, at 10:20 AM, Paul Garrity wrote: > NY Times piece on remote orchestras. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/arts/music/moving-orchestras-out-of-sight-maybe-even-out-of-the-theater.html -- Jeremy Lee Sound Designer, NYC - USA 829 http://www.jjlee.com -- To create a new topic, send a message directly to theatre-sound-list at googlegroups dot com -- please do NOT reply to an older message and change the subject line! Take a minute to edit unnecessary text out of your reply. Non-theatre-sound topics should be via private email. To unsubscribe or set your delivery options, see the web page: http://groups.google.com/group/theatre-sound-list -- To create a new topic, send a message directly to theatre-sound-list at googlegroups dot com -- please do NOT reply to an older message and change the subject line! Take a minute to edit unnecessary text out of your reply. Non-theatre-sound topics should be via private email. To unsubscribe or set your delivery options, see the web page: http://groups.google.com/group/theatre-sound-list
Ted Pallas
Ted Pallas
Project Manager//PRG Secaucus
Sandwich Construction Consultant
Cell: (516)286-9661 (Please be kind)
Sent from my Casio SK-1
Dave Stevens
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [theatre-sound-list] Moving orchestras out of the pit
> From: Paul Garrity <pgar...@ny.auerbachconsultants.com>
> Date: Sat, March 24, 2012 10:47 am
> To: "'theatre-s...@googlegroups.com'"
> <theatre-s...@googlegroups.com>
>
> I know of at least one cirque du soleil production in las vegas that uses a remote orchestra in a basement studio as well.
Yeah, I've heard that too. I've also heard they've got a crusty old
fart that runs the studios, DAW and monitor rig..... ;-) There are two
shows that employ complete remote studios, though in one show most of
the band is on stage for a good part of the performance.
Chip
orchestras. But to tie this to the "lack of magic" thread the best
effect I have seen lately was Lincoln Center's "South Pacific".
Overture- conductor and a few musicians in a smallish pit- about what
you would expect in today's theatre world. After several bars the stage
floor slowly starts to retract US, finally revealing a huge 35? piece
orchestra. If the damn seats weren't so cramped w/ no knee room, I
would have stood applauding.
Chip 1
Carlton Guc
Interesting read and interesting comments generated on the list!
Most my design work over the last decade have ended up remoting the orchestra and I've been lucky (or un-lucky depending) that the theatres have producers that want to support not only the actors on stage, but the musicians in the pit. My recent design (Children of Eden) has 12 musicians in the "pit", 150 feet away from the main stage. Video feeds to the pit, and the actors are solid enough that they don't need to see the conductor and my board op has complete control over the level of the orchestra and the mics actors.
Yes, I miss the "live" feel of the orchestra and sorely wish that I could increase the channels feeding from the pit and the subs needed for a much fuller sound in some places, however very happy that I have complete control over the sound of the show.
That does lead to some questions....
How do you deal with monitors? Avion and individual headsets is an option but muscians (at least the ones I work with) are not at all happy to wear headphones but want to hear the show (and themselves). Typically I place a monitor in the pit for the conductor and most the time the rhythm section, but stay away from monitors for the strings/winds as they tend to have more open mics. I'd like my pit to know what's going on, but how do you keep the balance between to much vocal audio in the pit that bleeds back into the live microphones, or do you (designers) try to mic everything as directional as possible.
Which leads to this... Should the MD keep the orchestra in balances so the board op doesn't need to worry about musical details, or should the board op be completely responsible for the balance of the orchestra pit? My board ops know they need to bring out specific instrumental solos, however I'm not always blessed w/ boards ops that can mix both the orchestra and the cast. And in "live" orchestras in a real pit, the MD is mostly responsible for bringing out instrumental solos anyway.
And then this... if I can get everyone on headphones, and assuming I have a very good sounding room, is it better to just do general mics (maybe just two) or to continue to mic every instrument?
Finally, if budgets weren't an issue, would a remote orchestra sound better running through individual speakers vs a stereo mix? That is, is there any benefit of dedicating one speaker per instrument (or group of instruments) vs a really good set of stereo speakers and subs?
I'm interested in hearing what other designers have experienced with the above. I've experimented a lot with the above and have my set of results but want to hear yours.
Regards,
Carlton
Stage Research
Dave Stevens
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: re: [theatre-sound-list] Moving orchestras out of the pit
> From: Carlton Guc <car...@stageresearch.com>
> Date: Sat, March 24, 2012 5:55 pm
> To: Theatre Sound List <theatre-s...@googlegroups.com>
> Finally, if budgets weren't an issue, would a remote orchestra sound better running through individual speakers vs a stereo mix? That is, is there any benefit of dedicating one speaker per instrument (or group of instruments) vs a really good set of stereo speakers and subs?
>
A bunch of old hippies did that many years ago....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_Sound_%28Grateful_Dead%29
Dave
about 50 blocks from the theatre that hosted. I wonder what kind of
delays they had with signal to deal with?
David
Charlie Richmond
WOW I fond the story rather interesting. The Tonys music was preformed about 50 blocks from the theatre that hosted. I wonder what kind of delays they had with signal to deal with?
Rich Walsh
> Since electricity travels at the speed of light, a few microseconds or so, maximum.
Strictly speaking, I think "electricity" (ie: the movement of charged particles) travels really rather slowly (not even close to 1m/s). Electromagnetic waves, on the other hand, can (only) travel at the speed of light – and so the information conveyed by electricity can also travel at the speed of light. However, the speed of light in a material is not necessarily the familiar figure of 299792458m/s. In RG59 it is only 66% of that, for example.
Still, you ain't gonna hear the delays due to finite propagation speeds unless you're dealing with a very long bit of cable! You might notice encoding latency though…
Rich
Charlie Richmond
On 26 Mar 2012, at 19:30, Charlie Richmond wrote:
> Since electricity travels at the speed of light, a few microseconds or so, maximum.
Strictly speaking, I think "electricity" (ie: the movement of charged particles) travels really rather slowly (not even close to 1m/s).
Jeremy Lee
Jeremy Lee
- A thumb is a terrible speller. Please forgive my trespasses.
Jeremy Lee
Jeremy Lee
Rich Walsh
Someone smarter than me will understand this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity [edited to non-mobile site]
Electrons travel at a different rate than the wave does...
Charlie Richmond
On 26 Mar 2012, at 20:38, Jeremy Lee wrote:Someone smarter than me will understand this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity [edited to non-mobile site]Electrons travel at a different rate than the wave does...Yep, that's it. So, 3V across copper results in current flowing at c1m per hour (and I do mean metre). It's like comparing the speed of sound with wind speed: the air molecules aren't travelling at the speed of sound, nor are electrons travelling at the speed of light (relativity says they can't, not being massless and all).
Charlie's right though, it probably wasn't very helpful of me to be pernickety if the key point then gets lost…Rich
--
Rich Walsh
This is drift velocity which refers to the speed of individual electrons moving in random motion inside a conductor and not the speed of electricity:In which the pertinent explanation is this:"The velocity and the electrical resistance outside of conduction is often assumed by the propagation speed of an electromagnetic wave.[citation needed] In simplified systems, the speed of electricity is given as the electromagnetic wave which conveys information (data), not the movement of electrons. Electromagnetic wave propagation is fast and depends on the dielectric constant of the material. In a vacuum the wave travels at the speed of light and almost that fast in air. Propagation speed is affected by insulation, such that in an unshielded copper conductor range 95 to 97% that of the speed of light, while in a typical coaxial cable it is about 66% of the speed of light.[3]"
Charlie Richmond
"Drift velocity" is not random motion, by the way: that'd be "Fermi velocity" apparently – which reads like the quantum version of what I remember as Brownian motion, which is what causes Johnson noise, which is why analogue circuits have a noise floor! Or something like that…
Jeremy Lee
Jeremy Lee
--
Jeremy Lee
I understand the reasons and practicality behind having remote orchestras. But to tie this to the "lack of magic" thread the best effect I have seen lately was Lincoln Center's "South Pacific". Overture- conductor and a few musicians in a smallish pit- about what you would expect in today's theatre world. After several bars the stage floor slowly starts to retract US, finally revealing a huge 35? piece orchestra. If the damn seats weren't so cramped w/ no knee room, I would have stood applauding.
Chip 1
Svante Axbacke
On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 08:12, Dave wrote:WOW I fond the story rather interesting. The Tonys music was preformed about 50 blocks from the theatre that hosted. I wonder what kind of delays they had with signal to deal with?Since electricity travels at the speed of light, a few microseconds or so, maximum.
Or if they ran optcis, the signals did indeed travel at the speed of light. :)
/SVante