Baha'i Census is a big LIE with wildly exaggerated number of adherents and localities

[avicenn...@yahoo.com]

Finally, we have official acknowlegement from the Queen of Baha'i
Cyberspace regarding the erroenous wildly exaggerated Baha'i census.

-----------------
From: sman...@jam.rr.com
Date: 4 Aug 2005
Subject: Re: Baha'i officials admit in writing that the number of
Baha'is has decreased worldwide

Henry wrote:
> In the past, many seekers were told that the Baha'is numbered 6
> millions worldwide.
> Now, the official Baha'i propaganda machinery is stating matter > of fact that there are only 5 millions of those Baha'is >>worldwide.

Susan responded:
"Some times the number has been estimated at five million, sometimes at

six. Truth is, no one really knows."

------------------------------------------

The Baha'i census that claim 6 to 7.2 million adherents is -A LIE- A
LIE- an actual exaggeration of the real numbers.

It is estimated that there are no more than ***ONE Million*** real
Baha'is worldwide.

Now below one finds wildly exaggerated number of localities- on the
lower end we see 18,000 localities and then on the upper end we see
124000 localities. Then there are statements of 100,000 and 110,000
localities.

Finally the number of countries and localities varies with each web
site. There is **no concensus** regarding the actual number of
countries, the actual number of localities, and the actual number of
Baha'i followers.

If one takes the estimated 100000 localities and figures that there are
at least 5-9 Baha'is. We find that the census is going to show 500,000
to 900,000 Baha'i adherents worldwide.

That should make anyone who is a Baha'i very depressed. Not 6 million,
not 5 million, but a little less than 1 million Baha'is worldwide- with
30% still in Iran and 6-7% in the US.

Henry Villar

---------------------------

"The Bahá'í community, comprising members of the Bahá'í Faith from
all over the globe, now numbers some five million souls. They represent
2,112 ethnic and tribal groups and live in over 116,000 localities in
188 independent countries and 45 dependent territories or overseas
departments." www.Bahai.org
------------------

"According to the 1992 Encyclopaedia Britannica Book of the Year, the
Bahá'í Faith had established "significant communities" in more
countries and territories than any other religion except for
Christianity. They were organized in 205 areas worldwide vs. 254 for
Christianity. According to The Baha'i World, this has since increased
to 235 countries and territories, including over 2,100 racial, ethnic
and tribal groups. Encyclopædia Britannica Online estimates that they
had about 7.4 million members worldwide in mid-2002:

1.8 million in Africa
3.6 million in Asia
0.13 million in Europe
0.91 in Latin America
0.81 in Northern America
0.12 in Oceania. 1 "

The number of devoted, committed members of the Baha'i faith is
probably much lower than 101,000, perhaps on the order of 60,000. This
is surprisingly close to the harmonic mean of the estimates by the U.S.
Baha'i NSA and reformer Fredrick Glaysher.

Link: http://www.religioustolerance.org/bahai4.htm

----------------------------
The largest Bahá'í community in the world is in India, with 2.2
million Bahá'ís residing there, although only 5,575 claimed to be
Bahá'í in the 1991 Census

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baha'i_statistics
----------------------------

The youngest of the world's independent religions, the Faith founded by
Bahá'u'lláh stands out from other religions in a number of ways. It
has a unique system of global administration, with freely elected
governing councils in more than 18,000 localities.

Link: http://www.upliftingwords.org/Introduction.htm
------------------------------

The largest Baha'i communities are now in South Asia, Africa, Latin
America, and (relative to the size of the population) in some of the
islands of the Pacific. In these parts of the world, some villages and
areas are more or less completely Baha'i. Here the Baha'is have
initiated educational, agricultural and community development projects.
The latest available official Baha'i statistics (1994) state that there
are between 5 and 6 million Baha'is in the world; that Baha'is live in
over 110,000 localities; that there are over 17,000 places where there
are organized Baha'i communities with elected local councils (Local
Spiritual Assemblies); and 172 national elected bodies (National
Spiritual Assemblies).

Link: http://www.northill.demon.co.uk/bahai/
---------------------------------

The Bahá'í Faith is an independent world religion. With more than Six
million adherents residing in over 124,000 localities, the Bahá'í
Faith is established in 233 countries across the planet.

Link: http://www.irvingbahai.org/

----------------------------------

the Baha'i Faith spread to all corners of the globe and it is
represented in 240 countries. There are more that 100.000 local centres
and the Baha'i writings are translated to 800 languages.

Link: http://www.bahai.org.pl/english/faq/
------------------------------------

The latest available official Baha'i statistics (1994) state that there
are between 5 and 6 million Baha'is in the world; that Baha'is live in
over 110,000 localities; that there are over
17,000 places where there are organized Baha'i communities with elected
local councils (Local Spiritual Assemblies); and 172 national elected
bodies (National Spiritual Assemblies).

Link:
http://hometown.aol.com/__121b_/ZersZYlaTxFMHOOFml/xGDtrWPvSOC5RoNA4BByV+XHutJmGCaZLQ==
-------------------------------------

The Bahá'í Faith is an independent world religion. With more than
five million adherents residing in over 124,000 localities, the
Bahá'í Faith is established in 204 countries across the planet.

Link: http://www.bahai.com/welcome.htm
-------------------------------------

[sma...@jam.rr.com]

> The Baha'i census that claim 6 to 7.2 million adherents is -A LIE- A
> LIE- an actual exaggeration of the real numbers.

There is no Baha'i census for the number of Baha'is in the world. The
6-7 mil. figure was arrived at by Christian estimates, not Baha'i. We
have figures for some countries, but I know of no Baha'i census for the
world.

>
> It is estimated that there are no more than ***ONE Million*** real
> Baha'is worldwide.

By whom?

[Qurra...@id7.com]

Also, of interest, one Baha'i site, to my amazement, has the figure of
7 Million world-wide members. I thought to myself, wow are they
counting all those who have ever lived and are yet to be born?

[sma...@jam.rr.com]

That is the figure the Christian World Encyclopedia came up with. Of
course, they also thought there were 700,000 Baha'is in the US for some
reason!

[avicenn...@yahoo.com]

Maneck+

Where did the Christians get their data?

Answer: From the Office of External Affairs- NSA of USA

Therefore, it is only the Baha'is and their officials at the US NSA who
are to blame for the false-misleading report on the wildly
exaggerated Baha'i census.

And please do not put the blame on Christians who relied on information
given to them by the US NSA.

Furthermore, if the numbers of believers is so erroneous, **why
didn't** the US NSA - UHJ-ITC-ABM-CBC ever contact the Christian World
Encyclopedia Editors, and **request** a correction?

Answer: Baha'is want to pad their numbers- for "public image".

You are trying to weasel yourself out of this one- don't !!!

Just remember- there are more or less- give and take- less than one
million Baha'is worldwide- with approx. 30% in Iran. That leaves around
700,000 Baha'is in all countries except Iran. And the numbers of
Baha'is in Vietnam and India -- are very much inflated.

Henry Villar- The redeemer of Corrected Baha'i Census

[sma...@jam.rr.com]

avicenn...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Maneck+
>
> Where did the Christians get their data?
>
> Answer: From the Office of External Affairs- NSA of USA

Wrong. They came up with those figures on their own, using their own
methods. The people who did that Encyclopedia attended our Baha'i panel
at the American Academy of Religion a few years ago and we asked them
about those statistics.

> Therefore, it is only the Baha'is and their officials at the US NSA who
> are to blame for the false-misleading report on the wildly
> exaggerated Baha'i census.

Except it was Dr. Robert Stockman, who runs the research department at
the US NSA, who told them their figures were too high. I saw him do
this myself.

[avicenn...@yahoo.com]

Un--Likely story.

You need to provide proofs of your assertions.

It is unlikely that the US NSA would go back and ask them to correct
those figures- they look so much better for the Baha'i Faith anyways.

Henry Villar- The Redeemer of Corrected Baha'i Census

[sma...@jam.rr.com]

> You need to provide proofs of your assertions.

I'm the eyewitness. What do you want a videotape? You can ask Chris
Buck if you want. He was there too.

> It is unlikely that the US NSA would go back and ask them to correct
> those figures- they look so much better for the Baha'i Faith anyways.

Did I say the NSA asked them to go back and correct it?

I said Dr. Robert Stockman who runs the office of Research at the
National Baha'i Center (and is therefore an 'official') told them in my
presence that their statistics did not coincide with our own and that
especially their figure for the number of Baha'is in the US (700,000)
was way, way off. Now whether they want to go back and change their
statistics is their own business. It is not up to us to ask them to do
this.

[PaulHammond]

avicenn...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Un--Likely story.
>

More likely than any of your woeful bollocks!

> You need to provide proofs of your assertions.
>

So do you - but does me telling you that make you
do it?

>
> Henry Villar- The Corrector of Eaten Baha'i Cakes

[avicenn...@yahoo.com]

Sending them a letter would have been wise.

You guys- as baha'is use letters as propaganda machinery every day.

Now, why on Earth would you NOT have sent them a letter?

Ah! The response is that it is better to have enormously milsleading
number of adherents anyways.

Henry Villar

[sma...@jam.rr.com]

>
> Now, why on Earth would you NOT have sent them a letter?

Because they were right there and we could ask them?

[avicenn...@yahoo.com]

Nobody is going to believe that story- Susan Maneck.

It is always better for the Baha'i Cult to pad their membership.

Even Shoggi Effendi was caught lying about the numbers of Baha'is.

Shoggi could accurately provide the number of localities, LSA, NSA and
others- while being unable to provide an approximate number of Baha'i
adherents? Good numbers with bad numbers?

Henry Villar

[sma...@jam.rr.com]

>
> Even Shoggi Effendi was caught lying about the numbers of Baha'is.
>
> Shoggi could accurately provide the number of localities, LSA, NSA and
> others- while being unable to provide an approximate number of Baha'i
> adherents?

Let's see. Shoghi Effendi "was caught lying about the numbers of
Baha'is" although he never gave even 'an approximate number of Baha'i
adherents"?

Sounds like your story is the one that can't be believed!

[Baha'i Censorship - See Website]

Susan Maneck, Baha'i scholar:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck8.htm

"According to the direct and sacred command of God we are forbidden to utter
slander." --Abdu'l-Baha

Unmeasured vituperation employed on the side of the prevailing opinion
really does deter people from professing contrary opinions and from
listening to those who profess them." --John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
(51-52).

Dear non-bahai observer,

For further background on Susan Maneck and her tactics,
see Susan Maneck, Baha'i scholar:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck8.htm

"In short, she has lied and made misleading statements about
me in the past and this recent statement of hers is just
another example of her lack of honesty." Steven Scholl
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Scholl4.htm

"...she has behaved toward me in an academic setting
with dishonesty and deceit in such a way as deprives her
of the right to debate me publicly. She spied on me and
lied about it. She betrayed confidences in such a way as
to cause her academic colleagues to demand and get her
resignation from a position she had held." Prof. Juan Cole
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole20.htm

Juan Cole, February 13, 1999:
"It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading
Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the
desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning,
they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion."

"I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with
hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and
tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning
and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have
shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and
slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is
about has anything at all to do with *universities*!"

"Isn't it sort of suspicious that she shows up at AOL
backbiting me so assiduously on a forum where I am not
even present? ... Is the only way to stay a Baha'i
to capitulate morally in this way?" Prof. Juan Cole
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole19.htm

"As for Maneck's relationship to the Baha'i authorities,
she has herself boasted to common friends of ours of
corresponding with House members about how to 'deal with
Cole', and she served as a spy on an academic editorial
committee for counselor Ghadirian, passing over to him
detailed reports on confidential discussions, one of
which she accidentally sharedwith an editor. And now
she wishes to make my revelation of this role itself
a reason for which *I* should be thought delusional?"
Prof. Juan Cole
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole74.htm

Rod Wicks, January 22, 2004:
I disagree...and my disagreement is based on years of online discussions
in which Susans [Maneck] propensity to accuse (openly or through innuendo)is
reflected by other fundamentalist Baha'is. So too the evasiveness, the glib,
trite smarmy non answer, the drive by 'blipvert' of one line innuendo, the
refusal to stand and defend/justify/explain any attack or allegation, the
retreat into cowards killfile when her dishonesty is exposed.....all these
are common features of what has been described as the Baha'i Technique.
I did not believe such a phenomena could exist when I first came online...
today the evidence is irrefutable and undeniable. Susan M perfectly reflects
all that is worst about contemporary Baha'i culture...'they' know it and
love her for it.

No....Manic and fundamentalist co workers do not simply "represent" the
Baha'i community...they *ARE* the community...their identification is
total/complete. Any criticism of any aspect of Baha'i is perceived by
Manic and Co as a direct personal attack and they respond by attacking
the individual rather than the argument. They will invent and
manufacture 'enemies of the faith', 'violators of the Covenant' and
even stoop to open allegations of criminal activity.

The AO cannot possibly be deaf, dumb and blind to this activity any
more than the online Baha'i gallery and lurkers are blind to it.
It is granted approval, formal or informal, open or tacit...it matters
not.

The truth is apparent in examination of the facts...the facts are
available in review of the archives...the archives reveal incident
after incident/event after event in which Susan (or co fundamentalist)
levels a baseless and unprovoked serious allegation, refuses substantiation,
hides behind glib and evasive [expletive] and/or killfile and receives
open or tacit support for doing so.

Susan represents a prevailing culture of abuse, slander, denial and
evasion.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8ccded73.0401212239.6e99f512%40posting.google.com&output=gplain

> [Susan Maneck's] notion of "integrity" is clearly revealed here- [snip]
> It involves misrepresentation, slander, psychic assumptions, refusal
> to substantiate or explain and repetitious ad hom as an evasive device
> to avoid acting in an ethical manner. [Susan Maneck's] will go to any
> lengths
> to avoid responding to a justifiable call for substantiation of her
> baseless allegations...she will cut, snip, evade, convolute and red
> herring her way away from the question.
> When called to account she will plead "hounding".
>
> All ethical connect to the notion of 'integrity' has been forfeit by
> her.
>
> Rod in news:8ccded73.03091...@posting.google.com

"You, Madam, are devoid of propriety, dignity and morality." El Baquiano
"Since I prize the Baha'i Faith, words that insult it are vile. And
since I never uttered nothing resembling them, I say that you are
falsely attribute them to me. You continuously imply that my
motivations are suspect and nefarious and that I am attacking the
Faith and its institutions. Yet in the face of irreproachable proof to
the contrary, you continue to add to your mound of lies.".El Baquiano

Further details on Baha'i scholar Susan Maneck at
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm

See her slandering other views as garbage:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm

See her slandering other views as litter:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm

See also messages related to her abuse of AOL :
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm

Bahai institutions DRIVING people out - Maneck's "get over it" 9/17/03
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck9.htm

Compare "The Bahai Technique" - Slander & Shunning
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm

Shunning > Menu
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Shunning.htm

--

Frederick Glaysher
The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/

[Baha'i Censorship - See Website]

[Steve Marshall]

Congratulations, Susan. You've managed to get to Fred enough to prompt
him to engage in excessive multi-posting
<http://killfile.org/~tskirvin/faqs/spam.html>.

But I expect most folks have him kill-filed by now, and didn't notice
his reaction. Brendan's reply alerted me.

ka kite
Steve

[sma...@jam.rr.com]

> Congratulations, Susan. You've managed to get to Fred enough to prompt
> him to engage in excessive multi-posting

You mean by that one little remark about shunning?

Touchy, isn't he?

[Steve Marshall]

sma...@jam.rr.com wrote:

>You mean by that one little remark about shunning?
>
>Touchy, isn't he?

Fundies are like that.

[Baha'i Censorship - See Website]

[tonyf...@bigpond.com]

God is Love my friends. This is the aim of the Baha'i Faith. May God bless all!

[Jeffrey]

On Thursday, January 23, 2014 12:15:48 AM UTC-7, tonyf...@bigpond.com wrote:
> God is Love my friends. This is the aim of the Baha'i Faith. May God bless all!

There is scarce evidence of this. All of the evidence points to the fact that the organization wishes only to control its members and its message, that it picks and chooses which of the principles of the Faith it will abide by and enforce. For example, God forbid, one of the young people may stray into drinking and sexual encounters. The whole community will rise up against this person to "save" them, when really they are a bunch of busybodies getting into the business of the other "friends". This harassment is fairly routine.

Yet when it comes to the qualities and beliefs that distinguish a true Baha'i, and which threatens their power structure, they will use every tactic available to them to shun and harass their victim.

This is fairly obvious to most observers. To say that the aim of your Baha'i Faith is Love, is to utter complete falsehood. Nobody buys this crap anymore.

Jeffrey

[NUR]

Well said, Jeffrey. I would only add that the real goal of the Baha'i faith is money and power, and they don't care how they get to it or what they have to do to obtain it.

[Paul Knight]

The entire focus upon numbers of enrollees in the Cuase of God is irrelevant and unworthy of attention except to echo the words of The Master 'Abdu'l-Baha':

"...do not be discouraged because you are few or because people think that your Cause is of no importance. If few people come to your gatherings do not lose heart, and if you are ridiculed and contradicted be not distressed, for the apostles of Christ had the same to bear. They were reviled and persecuted, cursed and ill-treated, but in the end they were victorious and their enemies were found to be wrong."

And:

"O ye believers of God! Be not concerned with the smallness of your numbers, neither be oppressed by the multitude of an unbelieving world. Five grains of wheat will be endued with heavenly blessing, whereas a thousand tons of tares will yield no results or effect. One fruitful tree will be conducive to the life of society, whereas a thousand forests of wild trees offer no fruits. The plain is covered with pebbles, but precious stones are rare. One pearl is better than a thousand wildernesses of sand, especially this pearl of great price, which is endowed with divine blessing. Erelong thousands of other pearls will be born from it. When that pearl associates and becomes the intimate of the pebbles, they also all change into pearls."

And:

"Look ye not upon the fewness of thy numbers, rather, 81 seek ye out hearts that are pure. One consecrated soul is preferable to a thousand other souls. If a small number of people gather lovingly together, with absolute purity and sanctity, with their hearts free of the world, experiencing the emotions of the Kingdom and the powerful magnetic forces of the Divine, and being at one in their happy fellowship, that gathering will exert its influence over all the earth. The nature of that band of people, the words they speak, the deeds they do, will unleash the bestowals of Heaven, and provide a foretaste of eternal bliss. The hosts of the Company on high will defend them, and the angels of the Abhá Paradise, in continuous succession, will come down to their aid."

[Paul Knight]

On Friday, August 5, 2005 11:00:11 AM UTC-4, avicenn...@yahoo.com wrote:

AND lest I leave this one out:

"Consider how there are thousands of heedless souls who are asleep, while there is one who is conscious and awake! Even as His Holiness Christ has said, the friends of God are the salt of the earth, and the salt is but a little part of the whole. Undoubtedly the friends of God have been endowed with ability and capacity, on which account they became of the "chosen" and not of the "called." "

'Abdu'l-Baha', Tablets, Volume 1, pg. 109

[z.lig...@gmail.com]

FARF!! it's the new world out there?

Try this enrollent card Hi! My name is _______________ I help unify the Baha'i community because "say anything" Thank you for being one!! Allah'u'abha! ~ZL

On Friday, August 5, 2005 8:00:11 AM UTC-7, avicenn...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Finally, we have official acknowlegement from the Queen of Baha'i
> Cyberspace regarding the erroenous wildly exaggerated Baha'i census.
>
> -----------------
> From: sman...@jam.rr.com
> Date: 4 Aug 2005
> Subject: Re: Baha'i officials admit in writing that the number o

[Hossein]

There is a section in the book "Twelve Principles: A Comprehensive Investigation on the Baha'i Teachings", pp. 437-452
http://www.avazedohol.com/eng/index.php/download
which shows all these lies about the Baha'i census were initiated by Abdu'l-Baha himself. He had been claiming he had at least 2 million (and up to 40 million) followers worldwide while the worldwide Baha'i population was estimated to be only 200,000 thousand about fifty years later. He had claimed he had converted millions of the people himself worldwide and thousands in the US.

The evidence is all based on newspaper articles in 1912 when Abdu'l-Baha had traveled to America. All newspaper articles have been taken from bahai.us .

Here is one quote:
"`Abdu’l-Bahā Abbas, leader of the Bahā’ī movement, which he says has 10,000,000 followers in the world, is in Salt Lake City. He is making a tour of the United States and plans to lecture on his religion here. (Comes [sic] to Lecture on Bahal [sic] Religion, The Evening Standard [Salt Lake], 30 September 1912)"
http://centenary.bahai.us/news/abdul-baha-abbas-comes-lecture-bahai-religion


Here is another:
"The disciple is a martyr to religion and claims to have converted several million people, including Christian, Mohammedans and Jews to the Baha’ism faith. (Women Should Have Rights of Men, The Sacramento Bee [San Francisco] 4 October 1912)"
http://centenary.bahai.us/news/women-should-have-rights-men-he-says

Find many more quotes and a detailed discussion see the book I quoted.

[jean.m...@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 5, 2005 5:00:11 PM UTC+2, avicenn...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Finally, we have official acknowlegement from the Queen of Baha'i
> Cyberspace regarding the erroenous wildly exaggerated Baha'i census.
>
> -----------------
> From: sman...@jam.rr.com
> Date: 4 Aug 2005

> Subject: Re: Baha'i officials admit in writing that the number of

what a load of co****** - does it matter whether it is 3 4 5 30000 million?? does it matter what the physical appearance of the founder was?? the CURRENT beliefs and aims and world influence DO matter

[daleh...@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 5, 2005 at 3:56:24 PM UTC-5, Susan Maneck wrote:

> There is no Baha'i census for the number of Baha'is in the world.

And why wouldn't there be? Are you admitting that Baha'is are unable or unwilling to keep accurate accounts of their global, national and local memberships around the world? Do you realize how that makes the Baha'i Administrative Order look?! Why should I take seriously a religion that does not perform a basic function like that, unless they have something to hide by not doing so?

[Dale Husband]

When I was a Baha'i living in Haltom City, Texas, I was given a list of 10 or 11 other Baha'is that were also supposed to be there, but I tried sending letter to them only to have most of them returned. Most of them had appearantly declared in the 1970s, but despite my not being able to find any of them, they were still counted as enrolled members!

So, yes, I do think the numbers of Baha'is around the world may be inflated, based on my own experience. If you do not remove inactive members after several years, that means you are being dishonest. Some Christian churches are known to do this too, but that does not make it right!

[franche...@gmail.com]

Just out of curiosity;
How many christians and muslims do we have in the world ?

[geroj...@gmail.com]

Does anyone have J. Curtis Lee Mickunas email? I was a Baha'i in Iowa around the time he was but I don't remember him.

[geroj...@gmail.com]

Does anyone have J. Curtis Lee Mickunas email address? I was a Baha'i in Iowa around the time he was there. cj...@txstate.edu