misplaced human fossils
Gunnar Ries
As creationist literature is becoming more and more popular in
germany (H.-J. Zillmer), but it is mostly not possible for
evolutionists to check the original papers, I hope you can help
me. Zillmer in his new book about errors in geology claims several
misplaced human fossils in old formations.
1. human bones in 300 mio years old german coal deposits. Source:
Taylor, J.: Fossil Facts and Fantasies
also: a fossil from Moab (I have no source) called "The malachite
man"
The journal "The geologist" should have reportet (according to
Cremo/Thompson: Forbideen archeology) the finding of a human bone
in coal deposits of 28 m depth. The bones where covered with shiny
black material, but beneath it they were fresh.
Are there any informations or publications available about these
misplaced fossils?
yours
Gunnar Ries
(z.Zt. Dar es Salaam)
more wasted Cyberspace
http://www.gunnarries.de
Louann Miller
>Hi talk origins,
>
>As creationist literature is becoming more and more popular in
>germany (H.-J. Zillmer), but it is mostly not possible for
>evolutionists to check the original papers, I hope you can help
>me. Zillmer in his new book about errors in geology claims several
>misplaced human fossils in old formations.
(snip)
>The journal "The geologist" should have reportet (according to
>Cremo/Thompson: Forbideen archeology) the finding of a human bone
>in coal deposits of 28 m depth. The bones where covered with shiny
>black material, but beneath it they were fresh.
>
>Are there any informations or publications available about these
>misplaced fossils?
I'd start with a general check of the reliability of Cremo and
Thompson. 'Forbidden Archaeology' is basically a fundamentalist tract,
although people sometimes miss this because the religious text being
taken literally is the Hindu Vedas rather than Genesis. They are not
exactly inhibited about putting in ill-attributed rumor without
checking it if it looks to support their case.
Gunnar Ries
heard from Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.net>:
thanks,
It is disturbing, that the creationists are raising here in
germany. Zillmer is a close friend to Carl Baugh, so that should
say everything. But too many people are so ignorant and in every
NG Zillmers claims appear again.
:-(
bye
Adam Marczyk
news:9isoce.3...@gunnarries.de...
> Hi talk origins,
>
> As creationist literature is becoming more and more popular in
> germany (H.-J. Zillmer), but it is mostly not possible for
> evolutionists to check the original papers, I hope you can help
> me. Zillmer in his new book about errors in geology claims several
> misplaced human fossils in old formations.
>
> 1. human bones in 300 mio years old german coal deposits. Source:
> Taylor, J.: Fossil Facts and Fantasies
Sounds like a creationist book to me.
> also: a fossil from Moab (I have no source) called "The malachite
> man"
Some information on Moab Man and Malachite Man:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_anomaly.html#moab
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_anomaly.html#malachite
> The journal "The geologist" should have reportet (according to
> Cremo/Thompson: Forbideen archeology) the finding of a human bone
> in coal deposits of 28 m depth. The bones where covered with shiny
> black material, but beneath it they were fresh.
>
> Are there any informations or publications available about these
> misplaced fossils?
You should ask for sources in peer-reviewed, mainstream scientific
literature. Don't trust what the creationists tell you.
--
And I want to conquer the world,
give all the idiots a brand new religion,
put an end to poverty, uncleanliness and toil,
promote equality in all of my decisions...
--Bad Religion, "I Want to Conquer the World"
To send e-mail, change "excite" to "hotmail"
Gunnar Ries
heard from "Adam Marczyk" <ebon...@excite.com>:
>> As creationist literature is becoming more and more popular in
>> germany (H.-J. Zillmer), but it is mostly not possible for
>> evolutionists to check the original papers, I hope you can help
>> me. Zillmer in his new book about errors in geology claims several
>> misplaced human fossils in old formations.
>>
>> 1. human bones in 300 mio years old german coal deposits. Source:
>> Taylor, J.: Fossil Facts and Fantasies
>
>Sounds like a creationist book to me.
It is indeed. Zillmer is a close friend of Carl Baugh. :-(
>
>> also: a fossil from Moab (I have no source) called "The malachite
>> man"
>
>Some information on Moab Man and Malachite Man:
>http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_anomaly.html#moab
>http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_anomaly.html#malachite
These pages I have already. Are there any additional informations
to get? Here in Germany we are not so familiar with such nonsens
and most of the literature is hard to get. So these creationists
have an easy prey.
>
>> The journal "The geologist" should have reportet (according to
>> Cremo/Thompson: Forbideen archeology) the finding of a human bone
>> in coal deposits of 28 m depth. The bones where covered with shiny
>> black material, but beneath it they were fresh.
>>
>> Are there any informations or publications available about these
>> misplaced fossils?
>
>You should ask for sources in peer-reviewed, mainstream scientific
>literature. Don't trust what the creationists tell you.
I never trust a creatinonist. But this is somehow a new field for
me. Do you know any peer reviewed literarture for these cases?
It is hard to discuss with peolpe who have read the book without
any hard facts on hand. And I feel somehow with my back to a
wall...
bye
Gunnar
Glenn Morton
> also: a fossil from Moab (I have no source) called "The malachite
> man"
I have personally examined the teeth of Malachite man, who is being foisted
off on the YEC community by Donald Patton of Dallas as evidence of a
preflood person. The bones were found in Cretaceous strata. The slides
Patton showed at the local MEOS meeting in Dallas showed a discolored
circular zone around the fossil man. This was a hole dug into an older
formation, but , of course, Patton didn't bother mentioning that to his
flock. When I pointed it out, Patton got snippy with me. But one can see the
discoloration which clearly means a different type of rock from the host
rock when looking at the picture:
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/malachite-man-1990-leg-knee.jpg
I have saved the photo incase it disappears from the web.
I later found out that the teeth had been given to a professor at Baylor
Dental College, who it happened sat next to me in my church choir (both of
us poor basses). He let me examine the teeth and I took them to the best
fossil person in my company, a geologist named Tom Cheatham. He looked at
them and saw the same thing I had suspected, the bones were bone, they were
not fossilized. There was a patina of malachite ( copper mineral) staining
the teeth. Given the data at hand, it is quite likely that an American was
buried in a grave carved out of soft sandstone, which contained some copper
which then stained the bones in the grave. So in spite of the claim made by
these people that fossil humans and dinosaurs are found in the same
horiizon, it simply isn't true. The dino bones are fossilized, the human
aren't.
See
http://members.aol.com/gkuban/moab.htm
for some more info.
Jon Fleming
>In the silence of 16 Jul 2001 12:54:58 -0400, a tiny whisper was
>heard from "Adam Marczyk" <ebon...@excite.com>:
>
>
>>> As creationist literature is becoming more and more popular in
>>> germany (H.-J. Zillmer), but it is mostly not possible for
>>> evolutionists to check the original papers, I hope you can help
>>> me. Zillmer in his new book about errors in geology claims several
>>> misplaced human fossils in old formations.
>>>
>>> 1. human bones in 300 mio years old german coal deposits. Source:
>>> Taylor, J.: Fossil Facts and Fantasies
Perhaps the fraudulent "Freiberg skull"?
See <http://www.darwin.ws/contradictions/skull.html> and the links
from that page.
>>
>>Sounds like a creationist book to me.
>
>It is indeed. Zillmer is a close friend of Carl Baugh. :-(
>
>>
>>> also: a fossil from Moab (I have no source) called "The malachite
>>> man"
>>
>>Some information on Moab Man and Malachite Man:
>>http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_anomaly.html#moab
>>http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_anomaly.html#malachite
>
>These pages I have already. Are there any additional informations
>to get?
See <http://members.aol.com/gkuban/moab.htm>
>Here in Germany we are not so familiar with such nonsens
>and most of the literature is hard to get. So these creationists
>have an easy prey.
>
>>
>>> The journal "The geologist" should have reportet (according to
>>> Cremo/Thompson: Forbideen archeology) the finding of a human bone
>>> in coal deposits of 28 m depth. The bones where covered with shiny
>>> black material, but beneath it they were fresh.
>>>
>>> Are there any informations or publications available about these
>>> misplaced fossils?
>>
>>You should ask for sources in peer-reviewed, mainstream scientific
>>literature. Don't trust what the creationists tell you.
>
>I never trust a creatinonist. But this is somehow a new field for
>me. Do you know any peer reviewed literarture for these cases?
>
>It is hard to discuss with peolpe who have read the book without
>any hard facts on hand. And I feel somehow with my back to a
>wall...
>
>bye
>
>Gunnar
>
>
>Gunnar Ries
>(z.Zt. Dar es Salaam)
>
>more wasted Cyberspace
>http://www.gunnarries.de
--
Change "nospam" to "group" to email
John Stockwell
>germany (H.-J. Zillmer), but it is mostly not possible for
>evolutionists to check the original papers, I hope you can help
>me. Zillmer in his new book about errors in geology claims several
>misplaced human fossils in old formations.
>
>1. human bones in 300 mio years old german coal deposits. Source:
>Taylor, J.: Fossil Facts and Fantasies
If such an account is accurate, then it is likely that the coal had been mined
some decades, or centuries before, and that the skeleton was of a miner from
that previous era. It is quite possible for old workings to collapse and for
the coal to completely compact around objects introduced during previous mining.
Indeed, it might not be possible to tell that the coal had been mined previously,
if mining had consisted of a single tunnel into the coal.
>Gunnar Ries
--
John Stockwell | jo...@dix.Mines.EDU
Center for Wave Phenomena (The Home of Seismic Un*x)
Colorado School of Mines
Golden, CO 80401 | http://www.cwp.mines.edu/cwpcodes
voice: (303) 273-3049
Our new book:
Norman Bleistein, Jack K. Cohen, John W. Stockwell Jr., [2001],
Mathematics of multidimensional seismic imaging, migration, and inversion,
(Interdisciplinary Applied Mathematics, V. 13.), Springer-Verlag, New York.
Keith Littleton
Gunnar Ries (gunna...@gmx.de) wrote:
>As creationist literature is becoming more and
>more popular in germany (H.-J. Zillmer), but
>it is mostly not possible for evolutionists to
>check the original papers, I hope you can help
>me. Zillmer in his new book about errors in
>geology claims several misplaced human fossils
>in old formations.
>
>1. human bones in 300 mio years old german
>coal deposits. Source: Taylor, J.: Fossil
>Facts and Fantasies
.... Malachite Man reference deleted...
>The journal "The geologist" should have reportet
>(according to Cremo/Thompson: Forbideen archeology)
>the finding of a human bone in coal deposits of 28 m
>depth. The bones where covered with shiny
>black material, but beneath it they were fresh.
>
>Are there any informations or publications available
>about these misplaced fossils?
The reference to "The Geologist" and Cremo and
Thompson's "Forbidden Archeology suggests that the
citation is garbled as far as the bones occurring in
German deposits. On page 454 of "Forbidden Archeology"
page 150 of "The Hidden History of the Human Race," the
alleged bones were in 300 million year old "coal deposits"
in Macoupin County, Illinois. In "Forbidden Archeology,"
the header to this case is given as "6.3.1 Macoupin,
Illinois (Carboniferous)."
This refers to a paragraph in the December 1862
"The Geologist." The full citation is:
Anonymous (1862) Fossil Man. The Geologist. vol. 5,
p. 470. (December 1862).
The full text of the "original paper" reads:
"Fossil Man. - La Salle Presse states that, in Macoupin
county, Illinois, the bones of a man were recently found
in a coal-bed capped with two feet of slate rock, ninety
feet below the surface of the earth before the run cut
any part. The bones, when found, were covered with a
crust of coating of hard glossy matter, as black as coal,
but when scraped away left the bones white and natural."
What a person is left with is a second-hand account from
a newspaper of "bones of a man" being recovered from a
strip mine lacking any hard evidence by which to infer what
was really found if anything at all. This could be anything
from either an April Fool's joke run in the La Salle
Presse or local rumor reported as news in the paper to
an honest mistake on the part of people who mistook
siderite nodules or coal balls for human bones. There
is simply not any evidence at all that human bones
were actually found. Also, anybody who has talked with
Mr. Conrad of Hazeltown, Pennsylvania knows how easily
some people mistake concretions for bones.
The below web page by E. Conrad, a professional newspaper
reporter himself, shows why a person has to be skeptical
of reports of bones associated with coal.
"Man as Old as Coal"
http://www.edconrad.com/
Even the local museum of the Hazeltown Historical Society
has some of these concretions labeled as human bones. This
shows that people can easily mistake the concretions that
are associated with coal beds as human bones and, thus,
such reports have to be verified by the actual examination
of the reported bones themselves.
How wrong some of the claims about human bones being found
in coal can be found at:
Are There Fossilized Human Bones in Coal?
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Station/5253/conrad.htm
Carboniferous human bones -- an evaluation
http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/t_origins/carbbones/carbbones.html
http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/t_origins/carbbones/wise.html
The same page of "The Geologist" has commentary on a report,
titled "The Exhibition Frog," of a **live frog** that was
reported to have been found in a cavity within a coal seam
and claimed to have dated from when the Carboniferous coal
accumulated. This occurrence was given such credibility
that it was even put on exhibition even though it was no
different than modern frogs found in the region.
In another case, Midwestern newspapers during the 1800s
carried reports of airships landing and talking with local
citizens. The reports contain detail reports of these
aircraft and conversations with their Yankee inventors.
Thus, such papers often carried very fanciful stories that
that simply cannot be assumed to fact unless independently
verified. A good example is:
Early Airship Rumors Flew in Vincennes Sky From The
Valley Advance, Vol. 16, No. 28, Vincennes, Ind.,
March 18, 1980 at:
http://rking.vinu.edu/airship.htm
Yours,
Keith Littleton
litt...@vnet.net
New Orleans, LA
Keywords:
human fossil bone coal Macoupin Illinois Cremo Carboniferous
human fossil bone coal Macoupin Illinois Cremo Carboniferous
human fossil bone coal Macoupin Illinois Cremo Carboniferous
OOPART OOPARTS bones bones forbidden archeology
OOPART OOPARTS bones bones forbidden archeology
Doug Weller
says...
> I'd start with a general check of the reliability of Cremo and
> Thompson. 'Forbidden Archaeology' is basically a fundamentalist tract,
> although people sometimes miss this because the religious text being
> taken literally is the Hindu Vedas rather than Genesis. They are not
> exactly inhibited about putting in ill-attributed rumor without
> checking it if it looks to support their case.
>
Doug
--
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Submissions to: sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
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