gay shopping
CJL
a
David Weinshenker
Ah, come on, Stacy! Don't you want a rainbow flag?? :>
(It seems to be the national colors of San Francisco.)
-dave w
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Deb Marsh
>
> CJL kirjoitti viestissä <38b8...@news.netwalk.net>...
> >http://www.allpride.com
>
> Queer go home
>
> Stacy
>
Oh sweetheart, get in tune with yourself - please.
Debs
Gwendolyn Ann Smith
<daz...@grin.net> wrote:
> Ah, come on, Stacy! Don't you want a rainbow flag?? :>
> (It seems to be the national colors of San Francisco.)
...and that is a good thing, right?
(I know I rather like to see so many flags in the city)
Cheers,
Gwen Smith
--
. .
/\\//\ Gwendolyn Ann Smith * onQ Community Host, TCF
> () < Board Member, GEA * Webmistress, TransBay
\/()\/ Webmistress, SCCatl * Webmistress,TSMCCenter
"I want this to be a harmony of voices" - Lauren D. Wilson
**Posts may not reflect the views of the above organizations
Joann Prinzivalli
David Weinshenker <daz...@grin.net> wrote in message
news:38BA37A4...@grin.net...
> a wrote:
> > CJL kirjoitti viestissä <38b8...@news.netwalk.net>...
> > >http://www.allpride.com
> > Queer go home
> > Stacy
>
> (It seems to be the national colors of San Francisco.)
>
>
Technically speaking, anyone who isn't cisgendered is genderqueer - and that
includes the cisgender wannabes (who plan to correct their sex or have
already done so). And genderqueer just means *different* from the
cisgendered. The heterosexually inclined majority hung the queer name on
those who aren't het - because they are different.
Better to be proud of who we are, whatever it is we are.
Joann
musta...@my-deja.com
> Technically speaking, anyone who isn't
cisgendered is genderqueer - and that
Absolutely not, I refuse to be any kind of queer.
> includes the cisgender wannabes (who plan to
>correct their sex or have already done so).
Since I have come across with males that either
have shaved today, have shaved in the past or
will shave in the future, thus making corrections
to their gender appearance, they would all fit
into that category.
>And genderqueer just means *different* from the
> cisgendered.
I refuse to be different. I also refuse any
outsiders labeling my gender and consider them
insults.
>The heterosexually inclined majority hung the
>queer name on those who aren't het - because
>they are different.
Since I am het, it does not apply to me.
> Better to be proud of who we are, whatever it
>is we are.
Negative. Unless you own a ranch in Montana
surrounded by a barbed-wire fence in the middle
of broken glass and 3-4 rottweilers jumping
against the fence (an alternative that I have
seriously considered more than once) you have to
come in terms with the "real world" also means
the "heterosexual majority". With those people
you better be very unproud.
It is also not wise for a colored person to enter
the White Aryan Resistance -meetings even though
he might be proud of his color.
Stacy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
musta...@my-deja.com
> Ah, come on, Stacy! Don't you want a rainbow flag?? :>
Queers are men that dress in black leather and poke each other in the
butt. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't share a similar interest.
(When I was a kid, I played cowboy. Now when I am old, I still like
western style outfits. Does this make me a primary cowperson?)
> (It seems to be the national colors of San Francisco.)
I never liked San Francisco: My BSTc sez my car needs more room than
dat. I have been to San Francisco many times, I never saw anything
visibly queer there.
Catsy
CJL
a wrote in message ...
CJL
Joann Prinzivalli
<musta...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:89irb3$ca7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > Technically speaking, anyone who isn't
> cisgendered is genderqueer - and that
>
> Absolutely not, I refuse to be any kind of queer.
>
So you are a member of the cisgendered majority? The word in context merely
means "different." OTOH, I am aware that it carries significant baggage as
an insult, so I do understand your desire to disassociate. There is a large
division in the gay community about the word, between those who shudder at
the thought, and those who wish to "own" it. Both sides have their points.
> > includes the cisgender wannabes (who plan to
> >correct their sex or have already done so).
>
> Since I have come across with males that either
> have shaved today, have shaved in the past or
> will shave in the future, thus making corrections
> to their gender appearance, they would all fit
> into that category.
>
Face-shaving for cisgendered men is within the norm for males.
> >And genderqueer just means *different* from the
> > cisgendered.
>
> I refuse to be different. I also refuse any
> outsiders labeling my gender and consider them
> insults.
>
Suit yourself. You are entitled to whatever self-appellation you choose.
If you aren't different then you are the same. So again, are you claiming
to be cisgendered?
> >The heterosexually inclined majority hung the
> >queer name on those who aren't het - because
> >they are different.
>
> Since I am het, it does not apply to me.
>
Well, look at it this way - _that_ aspect of queer (meaning "different")
doesn't apply to you. Is it possible that there are aspects that do apply?
And ultimately, does it matter?
> > Better to be proud of who we are, whatever it
> >is we are.
>
> Negative. Unless you own a ranch in Montana
> surrounded by a barbed-wire fence in the middle
> of broken glass and 3-4 rottweilers jumping
> against the fence (an alternative that I have
> seriously considered more than once) you have to
> come in terms with the "real world" also means
> the "heterosexual majority". With those people
> you better be very unproud.
>
In my view, they had better become more understanding of people who are
different. We can't change the "real world" if we don't refuse to sit in
the back of the bus. We can't change the "real world" unless we insist on
sitting at the lunch counter until they serve us.
> It is also not wise for a colored person to enter
> the White Aryan Resistance -meetings even though
> he might be proud of his color.
>
Well, there are some situations where fools rush in where angels fear to
tread. But the larger society isn't the W.A.R. - and if it was, then it
would be time for a change of some sort.
Joann
Gwendolyn Ann Smith
wrote:
> Queers are men that dress in black leather and poke each other in the
> butt. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't share a similar interest.
"Transies are men that put on dresses and fiddle with themselves.
Nothing wrong with that, but I don't share a similar interest"
"Some trannies are men that get their weenies whacked off. Nothing
wrong with that, but I don't share a similar interest"
Careful with those stereotypes, Catsy.
(and no, for those reading, the items I've put in quotes do not reflect
my own feelings.)
> (When I was a kid, I played cowboy. Now when I am old, I still like
> western style outfits. Does this make me a primary cowperson?)
No, it makes you a transwestite. ::smirk::
> I never liked San Francisco: My BSTc sez my car needs more room than
> dat. I have been to San Francisco many times, I never saw anything
> visibly queer there.
Maybe you went into the wrong parts of the city. The Castro is a good
example of queer space, though there are plenty of other areas in the
city.
musta...@my-deja.com
> Careful with those stereotypes, Catsy.
They are not my stereotypes, they are stereotypes of the majority. I do
not want the additional burden of being queer when I am already a TS.
> No, it makes you a transwestite. ::smirk::
:)
> Maybe you went into the wrong parts of the city. The Castro is a good
> example of queer space, though there are plenty of other areas in the
> city.
In my case, I went to the right parts of the city (since I happened to
avoid everything queer).
Stacy
grrl*@*petal
>
>> Careful with those stereotypes, Catsy.
>
>They are not my stereotypes, they are stereotypes of the majority. I do
>not want the additional burden of being queer when I am already a TS.
The majority doesn't care one way or the other. The stereotyping
minority thinks you're queer.
musta...@my-deja.com
> So you are a member of the cisgendered majority?
I refuse to wear the label "cisgendered".
>There is a large
> division in the gay community about the word, between those who
>shudder at the thought, and those who wish to "own" it. Both sides
>have their points.
So, in the gay community it would be politically correct not to use the
q-word. The people who would like to be known q could use the word
freely, but they should not force others into their category.
> Face-shaving for cisgendered men is within the norm for males.
It is correcting their gender. If they are not happy the way their
beard grows naturally, they take measures to correct it. In the same
way people suffering from eating disorders are gender dysphoric. People
that go through any kind of cosmetic surgery are changing their gender
presentation.
> If you aren't different then you are the same. So again, are you
>claiming to be cisgendered?
I have the constitutional right for keeping my intimate things secret.
No, I am not cisgendered.
>Is it possible that there are aspects that do apply?
> And ultimately, does it matter?
Yeah, there are aspects that apply, but I can also be called "sick",
"disabled", "differently abled" etc using medical terminology or a
"sinner".
"sinner" = "sick" = "queer". No matter which word you use, the end
result is the same: Guilt. Guilt destroys you.
> In my view, they had better become more understanding of people who
>are different.
That's not gonna happen in my lifetime. You or the society, which can
you change? I rather change myself, if it is possible at all, not
because I really deserve to, but because I want to live longer.
>We can't change the "real world" if we don't refuse to sit in
> the back of the bus. We can't change the "real world" unless we
>insist on sitting at the lunch counter until they serve us.
Read is dead. When you are an activist or whatever, take care of your
privacy. As a whore I understand the meaning of this perfectly, it is
just that the others do not seem to grant us any privacy at all. I have
been harassed and outed ad infinitum ad nauseam, I have had to defend
myself against violent men, gangs and even bitter old ladies. The whole
society has risen against my person. My crotch is a matter of public
debate in bars.
Do you really want this? A queer activist probably would.
You Americans talk about going to restrooms, though. This morning I was
swimming in a public spa, I used the wimmin's dressing room. I have a
right to wear swim suit in saunas, even though old bitches complain to
me about it all the time. I have the goddess given right. And I love
swimming. And I love skating with the figure skates, takes a little bit
practice, though. This all is my goddess given right. I don't give a
damn about people that don't give a damn about me and my welfare.
> Well, there are some situations where fools rush in where angels fear
>to tread. But the larger society isn't the W.A.R. - and if it was,
>then it would be time for a change of some sort.
Suprisingly, those are guys I do get along with well.
Joann Prinzivalli
<musta...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:89los0$ev9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > So you are a member of the cisgendered majority?
>
> I refuse to wear the label "cisgendered".
>
Fine with me. So many times in western thinking patterns and modes of
expression, we state things in a simple "black and white" pattern, as if the
reality can easily be so divided. The labelling you decry is not intended
to put you into a neat pigeonhole. For example, one sort of person who
might be in a gray area when attempting to divide the world into
"transgendered" and "not-transgendered" (retronym=cisgendered), could be a
hypothetical bi-gendered person - when expressing gender in accordance with
assigned birth sex, this person could be seen as cisgendered, and when
expressing across gender lines, as transgendered. Traditionally cisgendered
people would probably not accept this person as being "partly cisgendered"
and indeed, the individual, if she or he would prefer to self-label, would
probably think "transgendered."
You have the right to refuse to wear labels, but that doesn't affect the
right of others to apply them. In the above case, it was phrased as a
question, so your answer merely says what you say you are not.
> >There is a large
> > division in the gay community about the word, between those who
> >shudder at the thought, and those who wish to "own" it. Both sides
> >have their points.
>
> So, in the gay community it would be politically correct not to use the
> q-word. The people who would like to be known q could use the word
> freely, but they should not force others into their category.
>
If everyone was politically correct, I guess we'd live in a sterile little
world. But sometimes it's just a matter of being polite. Come to think of
it, I would think that "politically" in "politically correct" has more to do
with politeness than it has to do with japing jackasses or ponderous
pachyderms.
> > Face-shaving for cisgendered men is within the norm for males.
>
> It is correcting their gender. If they are not happy the way their
> beard grows naturally, they take measures to correct it. In the same
> way people suffering from eating disorders are gender dysphoric. People
> that go through any kind of cosmetic surgery are changing their gender
> presentation.
>
Interesting concept - though I would think that the broad sense of gender
that you are using involves slight shifting and not changing.
> > If you aren't different then you are the same. So again, are you
> >claiming to be cisgendered?
>
> I have the constitutional right for keeping my intimate things secret.
> No, I am not cisgendered.
>
Yes, indeed, there is a constitutional right of privacy, which somehow grew
out of the right against self-incrimination. I ought to apologize for
badgering the witness. (well . . .) Okay, I apologize for badgering the
witness.
> >Is it possible that there are aspects that do apply?
> > And ultimately, does it matter?
>
> Yeah, there are aspects that apply, but I can also be called "sick",
> "disabled", "differently abled" etc using medical terminology or a
> "sinner".
>
Ah. Getting back to your initial point above about not labelling, I can see
lots of people applying similar labels at me, and me rejecting them too.
> "sinner" = "sick" = "queer". No matter which word you use, the end
> result is the same: Guilt. Guilt destroys you.
>
There are people who make that conection. But they're the ones who seek to
impose the guilt - and the ones with more than a mote in their eye.
> > In my view, they had better become more understanding of people who
> >are different.
>
> That's not gonna happen in my lifetime. You or the society, which can
> you change? I rather change myself, if it is possible at all, not
> because I really deserve to, but because I want to live longer.
>
Society is not stagnant and does make incremental change - sometimes the
change is sudden, too - almost like plate tectonics. It may happen in your
lifetime or mine, and it may not happen.
> >We can't change the "real world" if we don't refuse to sit in
> > the back of the bus. We can't change the "real world" unless we
> >insist on sitting at the lunch counter until they serve us.
>
> Read is dead. When you are an activist or whatever, take care of your
> privacy. As a whore I understand the meaning of this perfectly, it is
> just that the others do not seem to grant us any privacy at all. I have
> been harassed and outed ad infinitum ad nauseam, I have had to defend
> myself against violent men, gangs and even bitter old ladies. The whole
> society has risen against my person. My crotch is a matter of public
> debate in bars.
> Do you really want this? A queer activist probably would.
>
I took the step of speaking at a public hearing in favor of a county human
rights law, outing myself in the process. This led to regional television
coverage that featured my short speech, and loss of my job as a result. It
was the right thing for me to do - but I really would have liked to have
been able to keep the job.
> You Americans talk about going to restrooms, though. This morning I was
> swimming in a public spa, I used the wimmin's dressing room. I have a
> right to wear swim suit in saunas, even though old bitches complain to
> me about it all the time. I have the goddess given right. And I love
> swimming. And I love skating with the figure skates, takes a little bit
> practice, though. This all is my goddess given right. I don't give a
> damn about people that don't give a damn about me and my welfare.
>
> > Well, there are some situations where fools rush in where angels fear
> >to tread. But the larger society isn't the W.A.R. - and if it was,
> >then it would be time for a change of some sort.
>
> Suprisingly, those are guys I do get along with well.
>
> Stacy
>
Scary stuff, in my mode of thinking - but I always thought that there were
great similarities in thinking between e.g. the Black Panther Party and
elements of White Power groups.
Joann
musta...@my-deja.com
> Fine with me. So many times in western thinking patterns and modes of
> expression, we state things in a simple "black and white" pattern
We have done away with Apartheid and the Berlin Wall, probably they
served their purpose, whatever it was.
There was a time in my transitioning when I did not pass all too well
and was neurotic anyhow and spent a lot of time with the "support"
group that loved labels and cheap beer. I guess it feels good to build
a neat little box where you can be safe in your own little colony,
though it gets lonely at times.
Not only we label each other, but our TS-label is earned and it reads
in the OFFICIAL papers that I fit neatly into the proimary het TS-box,
withs some suspicion of IS condition. Instant envy in the support
group. But I don't like this "apple" the shrinks have thrown to us as
the gift for the most "genuine TS", especially when they have designed
the label themselves.
It looks like a cult. A cult only works as long as there are people
believing in the mad delusion. Being a member of a cult makes you
lonely.
> might be in a gray area when attempting to divide the world into
> "transgendered" and "not-transgendered" (retronym=cisgendered),
Transgender is an illusion based on the moralist assumption of rigid
gender lines. Where do you place a typical goth in the gender spectrum?
At least a typical young TS here is a goth role-player. To talk about
transgender you have to believe also in rigid gender lines.
> You have the right to refuse to wear labels, but that doesn't affect
>the
> right of others to apply them. In the above case, it was phrased as a
> question, so your answer merely says what you say you are not.
I reserve the right to express deliver knuckle sandwiches for moralists.
> If everyone was politically correct, I guess we'd live in a sterile
>little world.
Yeah, I do not support political correctness either, for one reason
since it does not seem to concern us.
>But sometimes it's just a matter of being polite.
It is a silly theatre played by academically inclined with little
connections to real world. See "transsexual", "modern psychiatry".
> Interesting concept - though I would think that the broad sense of
>gender that you are using involves slight shifting and not changing.
When is it that you can start talking about change instead of slight
shifting? There are a lot of androgynous people. When I still lived in
the masculine lie, many thought I was a diesel dyke. People doing
shifts in their gender have various degrees of angst, sometimes very
great, like with the girls that are dysphoric about growing up with
normal amount of female roundness. I have known such a person and she
has suffered every bit as much as we have, only with the fat in her
butt and her mid-section. You know, I don't dare to ask her "what fat",
because then she would ask "what genitals".
> There are people who make that conection. But they're the ones who
>seek to impose the guilt - and the ones with more than a mote in their
>eye.
There is a lot of guilt around most everywhere I go to. You can't live
with it. If you are feeling guilty of what you are and that is a
problem, change the attitude, because you cannot change yourself. I am
a whore and I suck dick, because my surgeon needs a Porsche, except
that I probably don't need to any longer, but the amount of guilt the
general society puts on whores is much, much more than it puts on me as
being transgendered. Yes, it is. Simply put if you start thinking that
what you do is morally wrong or filthy or disgusting or something your
head will pop soon and you don't make much $$$ in the business for
long. You can never become immune for guilt, but this is a good way to
start:
"I am a whore and I suck dicks for my living and I have privacy and
intimacy and we will never meet again"
is better than:
"I am queer and I will be working with you. You'll know everything
about me anyway. Be so kind and respect my intimacy".
> Society is not stagnant and does make incremental change - sometimes
>the change is sudden, too - almost like plate tectonics
I happened to live next to San Andreas fault and I now live far from
the fault line. I prefer it this way.
> I took the step of speaking at a public hearing in favor of a county
>human rights law, outing myself in the process.
I will go to a summer camp next summer with about 20 young people
wanting to grow up. In the camp topics like sexuality and
discrimination will be presented. I will tell them I am a transgendered
person. It will not be easy. My wish is that they see it is not easy
for me and that they appreciate it and tell me about their own things
that aren't easy to tell either.
>This led to regional television coverage that featured my short
>speech, and loss of my job as a result. It
> was the right thing for me to do - but I really would have liked to
>have been able to keep the job.
That is like the most expensive slacks in the world. I wore them to my
job when I started transitioning. Lost 20 grand due to those slacks.
They were pink.
I have never worn anything pink since.
Stacy
http://www.geocities.com/burzov/transsexual.html
Joann Prinzivalli
Dominique <szcz...@particle.phys.ethz.ch> wrote in message
news:38C4FC1F...@particle.phys.ethz.ch...
[]I know,
> I know, I get your point... If you're different they're
> gonna kill you. Teena Brandon, I saw that
> movie yesterday... She didn't want to be different either.
[]>
Brandon Teena was an F2M, and _not_ a she but a he.
Joann
Joann Prinzivalli
> > In my view, they had better become more understanding of people who are
in
> > the back of the bus. We can't change the "real world" unless we insist
on
> > sitting at the lunch counter until they serve us.
>
> support :)
>
You are very welcome!
Joann
musta...@my-deja.com
Dominique <szcz...@particle.phys.ethz.ch> wrote:
> > Transgender is an illusion based on the moralist assumption of rigid
> > gender lines. Where do you place a typical goth in the gender
spectrum?
> > At least a typical young TS here is a goth role-player. To talk
about
> > transgender you have to believe also in rigid gender lines.
>
> been
> thinking a lot of it right now... And that's what I tend to think
> also...
> So we change then just to hide? to stay safe? just to save our asses?
> C'mon, there maight be something inside me, my brain, hormons, I don't
> know
> what the heck is responsible, but you degrade it only to society
> oriented
> problem? That's what you think? Is that right?
>
> Dominique
musta...@my-deja.com
'feminity' is such a vague thing. Nearly every male has sometimes done
something feminine. I picked flowers, collected glossy pictures, liked
painted china, but I also played cowboy.
Otherwise rational people say they have been saved by Jesus or abducted
by aliens. The wishes are so strong. In the "Little House in the
Prairies" a blind girl started to "see" when she felt the warmth of the
sun and the smell of the flowers, because the sensation was so
overwhelming.
We spend so much thinking about our problems and femininity that it
inself may be therapeutic and solve many of our problems.
I have spent enormously with this thing in my life and got very little
if I count pluses and minuses honestly. You only think about the
positive and forget about when you have been suicidal.
On the other hand I am overly critical to my own judgment because I was
judged as a child a lot and therefore it feels "right" to me. I can't
accept that I am finally right and this is good for me and that after
all, I am not a loser. This is the other side of the coin.
So, I don't really know. Why should I be obsessed about knowing? I know
surgery will be OK with me, don't I?
Stacy