My RULES for men
Ilya
I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups about
"The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I will
not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple rules
men can use to find Ms. Right!
--------------------------------------------
1. Be yourself. That's the most important one. Don't try to imitate
someone else, and you will attract people like yourself.
2. Have self-confidence, self-respect and self-esteem, these are
essential. She has to earn your respect as much as you hers.
3. Don't pursue women who are not worth pursuing. Do not go to bars to
pick up women who are like Chevy 57 with 450K miles on them and don't
run. You deserve better than that.
4. Don't humiliate yourself. If you hear "no", explicitly or not, forget
it and don't ask her out again.
5. Don't ask out women who are obviously not in the category of "Ms.
Right". Ask out only the ones you really like and think you have a good
chance with them, and do not waste your time on the relationships that
will obviously fail.
6. Don't play head games and be yourself. However, I think it is a good
idea to not return her phone calls within an hour.
7. Don't get really intimate unless you are really really serious about
her and are in the engagement or similar phase of the relationship. Don't
live together unless you are engaged or she made it clear to you that she
has long term plans and expectations.
8. Notice the warning signs. For instance, if she is depressed and talks a
lot about her ex-boyfriend, she may still be involved with him and you are
just a temporary person to make her feel wanted when he is not available.
9. Avoid narcissistic people. There are women who date men just to boost
their own egos. They don't love you, they only love themselves and use you
to raise their level of self-esteem or self-respect or just for sex. They
plan to dump you wnen you become an inconvenience.
10. Correctly interpret her message. If she says "Let's just be friends"
she does not think there is any potential for romance, she does not care
about you. Forget her. LJBF is best translated as "get lost".
11. There are two kinds of women: Relevant and irrelevant. Women who do
not like you automatically become completely irrelevant. Do not waste your
time on them and do not get upset by rejections. Rejections are normal and
they do not matter. The only relevant women are the ones that respect,
love and care about you.
12. ALWAYS be honest with her. If something bothers you, tell her. Don't
hide anything from her and feel confident about your decisions and ideas,
if she does not like them, it is her problem, not yours. Express your
feelings and thoughts. Expect her to be honest and ask her what her
expectations are.
13. Treat her with love and respect and take into consideration her
problems and concerns.
14. Avoid women who think their careers are more important than you. If
you are not as important for her as she is for you, then she is obviously
not right for you.
15. Consider women with socio-political beliefs similar to yours. If you
are in the National Rifle Association, hunt every fall and like Rush
Limbaugh, it is not a good idea to date a woman who is in the "Animal
Rights Coalition" and Handgun Control Inc. If her key beliefs are
incompatible with yours, she is irrelevant. Forger her and don't waste
your time on her.
16. If after dating a woman for a while you find out that you are
incompatible, stop dating her. You generally cannot change people.
==========================================================================
Ilya Beloozerov Email: ibel...@runet.edu
Public PGP key is available at http://www.cs.runet.edu/~ibelooze
This message is sponsored by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Flames will be redirected to /dev/null
==========================================================================
Fred G. Reardon
In article <58rah4$e...@newslink.runet.edu>, ibel...@runet.edu (Ilya)
wrote:
>
> I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups about
> "The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I will
> not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple rules
> men can use to find Ms. Right!
>
>
Llya,
Some pretty good rules! I agree.
--
|\ /|
\\|//
(o o)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o000=-(_)-=000o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| Fred G. Reardon |She had rings on her fingers and bells on |
| LMMS Program X |her shoes. I knew without asking she was |
|rer...@alisa1.lockheed.com|into the blues. She wore scarlet begonias |
| frea...@delphi.com |tucked into her curls. I knew right away |
| /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ |she was not like other girls. -R. Hunter |
| The opinions expressed herein are my own, not of my employer. |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Ilya
j...@2sprint.net wrote:
|THANK YOU !!!
This is incredible.. I have got about 14 very positive responses so far
and no flames.
Ilya.
Joel Stanley
Ilya wrote:
> 4. Don't humiliate yourself. If you hear "no", explicitly or not,
> forget it and don't ask her out again.
Ah, so we are to ask, _once_, very carefully nad cautiously, and if
she's in a bad mood or whatever and is anything less that totally
receptive, we're to run away?
No. She is wrong. I wouldn't have asked if I didn't think it right and
good. And whatever she does won't change that or me or how I feel.
Ilya
I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups about
"The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I will
not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple rules
men can use to find Ms. Right!
--------------------------------------------
1. Be yourself. Do not try to imitate someone else and you will attract
people like yourself. That's the most important one.
2. Have self-confidence, self-respect and self-esteem, these are
essential. She has to earn your respect as much as you hers.
3. Don't pursue women who are not worth pursuing. A very simple concept.
Do not go to bars to pick up women who are like Chevy 57 with 450K miles
on them and don't run. You deserve better than that.
4. Don't humiliate yourself. If you hear "no", explicitly or not, forget
it and don't ask her out again.
5. Don't ask out women who are obviously not in the category of "Ms.
Right". Ask out only the ones you really like and think you have a good
chance with them, and do not waste your time on the relationships that
will obviously fail.
6. Don't play head games and be yourself. However, I think it is a good
idea to not return her phone calls within 24 hours, unless you really want
to. You are not desperate and do not need to contact her 5 minutes after
she leaves a message on your answering machine saying that she wants to go
on a date.
7. Don't get really intimate unless you are really really serious about
her and are in the engagement or similar phase of the relationship. Don't
live together unless you are engaged or she made it clear to you that she
has long term plans and expectations. Reality check: There is an AIDS
epidemic in this country, and it is not a good idea to get intimate with
people you do not completely trust.
17. Generally it is a bad idea to date your boss. If you break up with
her, she could get mad and fire you or just work you to death. Keep in
mind that most workers do not have any rights at all. A boss cannot be a
friend.
18. Do not waste time on email relationships. They generally do not work.
You may think that your email partner is a 20 year old girl while she
actually may be a 40 year old man or vice-versa. Most email conversations
remain conversations and do not evolve into something more serious. People
in real life are not even close to their "net" personalities. On the other
hand, email conversations sometimes have more substance than phone or real
life conversations and go far beyond "Hi, how are you".
19. Sex-based relationships are a waste of time and do not work. This one
is self-evident.
20. Do not expect perfection. Understand that your date is an imperfect
human being in an imperfect world. Tolerate her weaknesses and expect her
to understand that you are infallible.
21. Be creative on a date. Don't take her to a see movie, everybody does
that. Instead, take her to see the club you are in, your social/political
organization you participate in, your favorite museum or a social event.
Take her to party, to see your interesting friends or play ping-pong.
Adam Perry
Ilya wrote:
>
>
> I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups about
> "The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I will
> not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple rules
> men can use to find Ms. Right!
IIya,
I thought i'd take the time to RE this long post, as it shows a
lot of thought.
There are several important items that modify your guidelines to finding
ms right:
1: Most guys are jerks who act like 5 th graders with thier own homes.
cars, etc...
2: Add to the above percentage the large number of men who are looking
for Ms right now (known as a one night stand), or anything to get by
with.
3: of the guys that are left (about 5%) here are thier most common
problems:
A. being too selective - since they feel they have a lot to
offer, they wish for someone who is thier equal. Sad to say but
only 5% of the female poulation will meet thier expectations,
and how many of those will find them attractive.
B. Age, this one has hit me personally many many times - Because
I am looking for a mrs right and most women my age are looking
for Mr exiting, I am attracted to women 5-10 years my senior,
when I tell them my age, thats the beggining of the end.
C. After being shit on, many men go through a "shit on women"
stage, this dosen't really help anyone out but can sure destroy
a social circle.
D.when it comes to dating its a womans world. 'Nuff said.
anyway, just a thought ot two
A. Perry
--
MZ
Doug Kihn
In <597pse$n...@newslink.runet.edu> ibel...@runet.edu (Ilya) writes:
>
>
> I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups
about
> "The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I
will
> not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple
rules
> men can use to find Ms. Right!
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
forget
> it and don't ask her out again.
I think these suggestions are very good. However number four is a
problem, because nearly all women I have ever asked out have said no at
first. I don't really know why. A psycologist once told me, "try
three times." But I can't do that. It just isn't honest. The trouble
with honesty is that it doesn't get dates.
Ilya
Joel Stanley (jrst...@umd.umich.edu) wrote:
|Ilya wrote:
|
|> 4. Don't humiliate yourself. If you hear "no", explicitly or not,
|> forget it and don't ask her out again.
|
|she's in a bad mood or whatever and is anything less that totally
|receptive, we're to run away?
I did not say anything about the bad mood. If she seriously says no,
consider my advice. Use your bestjudgement.
Ilya.
John Fereira
In article <599am8$a...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> viva...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn) writes:
>In <597pse$n...@newslink.runet.edu> ibel...@runet.edu (Ilya) writes:
>>
>>
>about
>> "The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I
>will
>> not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple
>rules
>> men can use to find Ms. Right!
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>forget
>> it and don't ask her out again.
>
>problem, because nearly all women I have ever asked out have said no at
>first. I don't really know why. A psycologist once told me, "try
>three times." But I can't do that. It just isn't honest. The trouble
>with honesty is that it doesn't get dates.
Perhaps an amendment to rule 4 should be that one should ask to
qualify that "no", before deciding to ask again. In some cases, "no"
might me "no, not ever" while in other cases that askee would like
to go out, just not that particular time that you ask. Don't just
accept a yes or no answer. Before deciding whether or not to ask again
it's a good idea to have some indication what the answer might be.
--
John Fereira
fer...@isis.com
Isis Distributed Systems - Ithaca, NY
ski...@msn.com
Not taking simply "no" as an answer is a great idea, but how do you
say "What do you mean by 'no'?"
That "no" can mean "Sorry I already have plans at that time", "I'm not
sure I know you well enough to do ... with you", "I'm already seeing
someone", "Never in your wildest dreams will I ever do anything with
you" -
But the response I get most often and which REALLY BUGS me much more
than "no" is "I'm busy". How do you interpret that one? "I've
already got plans that night" or "I'm busy for the rest of your life"
So back to my question - Ladies, how can I guy ask for clarification
without sounding wounded, or desperate, or prying?
Or do we even need to worry about it? How do you take it when a guy
asks for clarification?
Eric Young - EDS
Ski...@msn.com
Sunnyvale, CA
Peter Hong
ski...@msn.com wrote:
> But the response I get most often and which REALLY BUGS me much more
> than "no" is "I'm busy". How do you interpret that one? "I've
> already got plans that night" or "I'm busy for the rest of your life"
I'm busy = no?
I'm busy = no, I can't stand the sight of you now get out of my face?
I'm busy = no, you suck?
I'm busy = Yes, only if you are goind to inherit a billion dollars and
get a face lift and a new body or better yet just die after you marry
me?
I'm getting depressed...
peter peter pumkin eater, married easy but she was always "busy"
--
========================================================================
An elderly person visited a Zen monk one day to ask what one must do to
attain Zen mind. The monk answered that one should strive to do good
things. The elderly person replied "Even a three year old knows that!".
To this, the monk replied "Yes, but even an 80 year old like yourself
have so much trouble DOING just that".
========================================================================
John Fereira
In article <32b96e6e.60932150@news> ski...@msn.com writes:
>
>
>Not taking simply "no" as an answer is a great idea, but how do you
>say "What do you mean by 'no'?"
>
>That "no" can mean "Sorry I already have plans at that time", "I'm not
>sure I know you well enough to do ... with you", "I'm already seeing
>someone", "Never in your wildest dreams will I ever do anything with
>you" -
>
>than "no" is "I'm busy". How do you interpret that one? "I've
>already got plans that night" or "I'm busy for the rest of your life"
plans for some other time?"
Zardoz
Ilya wrote:
> I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups about
> "The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I will
> not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple rules
> men can use to find Ms. Right!
The rules are pretty good, but they still seem to imply that men have
sole responsiblity for the relationship. Its high time that we men
demanad that women take equal responsibility or stay home.
> 2. Have self-confidence, self-respect and self-esteem, these are
> essential. She has to earn your respect as much as you hers.
This implies equal treatment. That should include who asks who, who
pays, who gets to say "no," etc.
> 4. Don't humiliate yourself. If you hear "no", explicitly or not, forget
> it and don't ask her out again.
Exactly. If she says "no" its HER turn to ask you, or stay home. She
has equal responsiblitiy. No self respecting man should not be groveling
at her feet, begging for her "favors." Our "favors" are as valuable as
hers. Let her ask us the next time, or she can sit home watching old
videos.
> 10. Correctly interpret her message. If she says "Let's just be friends"
> she does not think there is any potential for romance, she does not care
> about you. Forget her. LJBF is best translated as "get lost".
Good point. Its OK to fuck your friends too, so if you hear LJBF, be
forward and ask for clarification. If she says that she means she
doesn't respect your body or won't consider sex with you, let her sit
home and spend your time with someone who wants you. Don't be groveling
and begging at her feet.
> 21. Be creative on a date. Don't take her to a see movie, everybody does
> that. Instead, take her to see the club you are in, your social/political
> organization you participate in, your favorite museum or a social event.
> Take her to party, to see your interesting friends or play ping-pong.
Be more creative the next time, and let her take you to her favorite
place, and let her pay for it. Equal opportunity is what we've been
hearing for decades. We men need to demand and expect to be treated as
if we are valuable for ourselves, not just for our money.
Try it -- it works, and it gives you emotional self worth.
Blessed Be
ZardoZ
The opinions expressed herein are mine alone and do not represent the
opinions or policy of any organization.
All material is the copyright property of the author and may not be
reproduced in any manner without specific permission.
Zardoz
Adam Perry wrote:
>
> There are several important items that modify your guidelines to finding
> ms right:
> 1: Most guys are jerks who act like 5 th graders with thier own homes.
> cars, etc...
You obviously fit into this catagory for insulting "most" men.
Zardoz
> forget
> > it and don't ask her out again.
>
> problem, because nearly all women I have ever asked out have said no at
> first. I don't really know why. A psycologist once told me, "try
> three times." But I can't do that. It just isn't honest. The trouble
> with honesty is that it doesn't get dates.
As long as men play their game and let ourselves be manipulated into
begging again and again, we lose, and she wins. As soon as we stop
playing that game and start expecting her to take responsibility for
half the relationship -- surprise -- we get self respect and she will
usually take responsibilty. When enough men start demanding respect she
will know in advance what to do.
The trouble with govelling and begging is that it doesn't get you
respect, and more women want men who respect themselves. Been there,
done that.
Zardoz
> |> forget it and don't ask her out again.
> |
> |she's in a bad mood or whatever and is anything less that totally
> |receptive, we're to run away?
If she was in a bad mood, or something, SHE can ask HE next time. A self
respecting man does not grovel at her feet, nor does he need to beg.
Its time women learned to take responsibility for their half of the
relationship or be left home.
Zardoz
Peter Hong wrote:
>
> ski...@msn.com wrote:
> > But the response I get most often and which REALLY BUGS me much more
> > than "no" is "I'm busy". How do you interpret that one? "I've
> > already got plans that night" or "I'm busy for the rest of your life"
>
> I'm busy = no, I can't stand the sight of you now get out of my face?
> I'm busy = no, you suck?
> I'm busy = Yes, only if you are goind to inherit a billion dollars and
> get a face lift and a new body or better yet just die after you marry
> me?
There is a good male answer for any of these. "Bye now. Call me if you
change your mind." Then let her call you after she sits home long
enough. If she doesn't, there are plenty of women who would rather have
a man who respects himself enough not to play her begging game. You
didn't want her anyway.
Remember that half the relationship is HER responsibility. Men deserve
to be asked as often as women.
Zardoz
L.G.Philpot wrote:
>
> I agree that a lot of women say no at first, but asking 3 times isn't
> necessary. When the woman sees you are disengaging after hearing, or
> interpreting her "no", she will usually drop her "token resistance", and
> become a little more accomodating. If she sees you are walking, and
> doesn't react, you've heard her correctly the first time. Then again,
> that's just my opinion.
"Token resistance" is a manipulative game to get you to beg. Have some
self respect and don't play that game. If she says "no" then it's her
turn to ask again. A self respecting man expects to be asked first
about half the time too, but that's another question. I know lots of
men who won't ask first because of having been victim of so many
manipulative games and accusations of "harassment," etc. Have some
respect. If you asked her once, and got a "no," you owe her nothing
more. She owes you a "thank you" for the compliment you gave by asking.
And, if she is playing a game of "token resistance" she will soon figure
out that a self respecting man won't play.
Doug Kihn
In <32B9E3...@ix.netcom.com> Peter Hong <powe...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>ski...@msn.com wrote:
>> But the response I get most often and which REALLY BUGS me much more
>> than "no" is "I'm busy". How do you interpret that one? "I've
>> already got plans that night" or "I'm busy for the rest of your
life"
>
>I'm busy = no?
>I'm busy = no, I can't stand the sight of you now get out of my face?
>I'm busy = no, you suck?
>I'm busy = Yes, only if you are goind to inherit a billion dollars and
>get a face lift and a new body or better yet just die after you marry
>me?
>
The trouble is that sometimes:
I'm busy = ask me 2 or 3 more times, because I'm scared, and I need to
accumulate more power in this relationship before I can commit to the
tiniest thing.
John Fereira
In article <32BAE3...@ix.netcom.com> bkza...@ix.netcom.com writes:
>Ilya wrote:
>> I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups about
>> "The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I will
>> not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple rules
>> men can use to find Ms. Right!
>
>sole responsiblity for the relationship. Its high time that we men
>demanad that women take equal responsibility or stay home.
on their own free will.
>> 2. Have self-confidence, self-respect and self-esteem, these are
>> essential. She has to earn your respect as much as you hers.
>
>This implies equal treatment. That should include who asks who, who
>pays, who gets to say "no," etc.
Equal treatment is nice in theory. What you are suggesting however is
placing demands on what your partner does rather then have your partner
contribute equally because zie *wants* to contribute equally.
>> 4. Don't humiliate yourself. If you hear "no", explicitly or not, forget
>> it and don't ask her out again.
>
>Exactly. If she says "no" its HER turn to ask you, or stay home. She
>has equal responsiblitiy. No self respecting man should not be groveling
>at her feet, begging for her "favors." Our "favors" are as valuable as
>hers. Let her ask us the next time, or she can sit home watching old
>videos.
Do you keep a score card just to make sure that she's contributing
an equal amount of favors? Have you ever considered doing something
for her just because you love her? Would you prefer that she did
something for you because she loves you, or just to keep the score even.
>> 10. Correctly interpret her message. If she says "Let's just be friends"
>> she does not think there is any potential for romance, she does not care
>> about you. Forget her. LJBF is best translated as "get lost".
>
>Good point. Its OK to fuck your friends too,
but only if your friend wants to fuck you too. I can see why you
might here LJBF though. Your attitude sucks.
>> 21. Be creative on a date. Don't take her to a see movie, everybody does
>> that. Instead, take her to see the club you are in, your social/political
>> organization you participate in, your favorite museum or a social event.
>> Take her to party, to see your interesting friends or play ping-pong.
>
>Be more creative the next time, and let her take you to her favorite
>place, and let her pay for it.
By the way, my girlfriend just got a raise and asked me today if she could
take me out to dinner. She's not doing it because I paid for dinner last
time we went out (actually I'm not sure who paid last time), but because
she cares about me. What a concept, huh?
>Equal opportunity is what we've been
>hearing for decades. We men need to demand and expect to be treated as
>if we are valuable for ourselves, not just for our money.
Equal opportunity only implies the each has an equal choice. Keeping
on making those demand and I'm willing to bet that not a lot of women
are going to *choose* to take you out to dinner. They'll choose men
that don't keep score cards when it comes to relationships. They'll
choose men that don't make demands. They'll exercise their equal
opportunity in dating, but they won't do it with you.
Jason Daniels
ski...@msn.com wrote:
> But the response I get most often and which REALLY BUGS me much more
> than "no" is "I'm busy". How do you interpret that one? "I've
> already got plans that night" or "I'm busy for the rest of your life"
> So back to my question - Ladies, how can I guy ask for clarification
> without sounding wounded, or desperate, or prying?
Hmm... I guess if I'm truly interested in a gal, I tend to pry a little,
and show no guilt at doing so. This tends to let my know what she
really meant by "I'm busy".
One good rule of thumb is that short, terse answers tend to mean she's
not interested. I don't usually get those as the "no's". So i'm
typically confused about her interest level. With proper prying this
can be assertained.
Another good rule of thumb is If she constantly has a good reason not to
do something with you, it typically means she doesn't like enough about
you for anything other than friendship. Or (less likely) she's too busy
for you, but is intereste. Either case, she's not goingn to be serious
with you, so deal with it.
One piece of advice I wish I had taken sooner was "keep your options
open". In other words, don't let one beauty get you in a blind pusuit.
'Cuz if you do ten others will slip through your fingers before you
figure out if it is gonna happen or not.
Best of luck!
--
Jason Daniels
PS If you're psychic, that's a plus, since women want a man to
"instinctively" know what she's thinking... For the non-psychics, pay
attention to body language, this will give you a good idea of how to
approach her. :) If you're body language illiterate, pick up a book on
the subject; read it; then go to a mall and observe for a while.
You'll eventually spot what they're talking about.
Jason Daniels
Doug Kihn wrote:
> The trouble is that sometimes:
> I'm busy = ask me 2 or 3 more times, because I'm scared, and I need to
> accumulate more power in this relationship before I can commit to the
> tiniest thing.
Who would feel comfortable dating a gal who can't make up her own
mind??? I know I wouldn't! I'm a man, not her BABYSITTER! hehehe
So in other words, no = man did his part, now it's up to the woman. Is
this an accurate interpretation?
--
Jason Daniels
+----------------------------------------------------+
| "She Turned me into a NEWT" |
| "A Newt?" |
| "Well, I got better" |
+----------------------------------------------------+
Jason Daniels
Mark Allen Opheim wrote:
>
> On 18 Dec 1996 03:53:50 GMT, ibel...@runet.edu (Ilya) wrote:
>
> > play ping-pong.
> now that's one i never thought about ; )
>
> you hit the nail squarely with 8 & 9
>
> not bad advise overall...
>
> The Oxymoron of the Day: guest host
>
> <mark_...@usa.net> www.angelfire.com/ca/lost/index.html
Hehe... It's no fun though if you've played so much so you accidentally
beat her, or it's too obvious that you're not trying... 'Tis my problem
with pong and women... Though one gal really gave me a run for my money
once when I was in college... she was cool, but nothing developed
there...(nothing more than a friendship that is...:)
Jason Daniels
John Fereira wrote:
>...
>By the way, my girlfriend just got a raise and asked me today if she could
>take me out to dinner. She's not doing it because I paid for dinner last
>time we went out (actually I'm not sure who paid last time), but because
>she cares about me. What a concept, huh?
Here's a neat concept to add to that. Don't just practice generosity
with the woman you are wooing, practice it with your friends and
acquaintences and hers as well... Not that I'm saying you should buy
stuff for everyone all the time, but help out when the opportunity is
there and it's not too big of a deal for you to do so. You'll probably
find people liking you even more when you're generous.
ke...@upompeii.com
>
> I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups
about
> "The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I
will
> not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple
rules
> men can use to find Ms. Right!
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> 4. Don't humiliate yourself. If you hear "no", explicitly or not,
> it and don't ask her out again.
I think these suggestions are very good. However number four is a
problem, because nearly all women I have ever asked out have said no at
first. I don't really know why. A psycologist once told me, "try
three times." But I can't do that. It just isn't honest. The trouble
with honesty is that it doesn't get dates.
===============================
It's not honesty, just a lack of sophistication. Why is it that a woman
will go out with a guy she refuses once if he keeps asking? (and this
has happened so often to me and friends of mine please don't tell me
it doesn't happen). For all sorts of reasons. The first time she might
not be reacting to you at all but some sort of unrealistic ideal (you
don't look like Antonio Bandaras, ask again and she'll realize dating
you is better than sitting home with a video from blockbuster). She
might not think you're that interested in her, or might be swayed if
she thinks you're really interested. I think the three times rule is
good provided you can read signals. If she's really not interested
once is enough (although I've stopped counting the women friends of
mine who got involved with guys after long "pre-courtships"..."yeah,
he finally got me," one friend of mine said recently after turning down
the same guy for three months, and she wasn't talking about a date,
more like an affair.
I think the "rules" for guys are much simpler. Go after what you want,
be a decent enough guy so there are no long-term consequences if
something doesn't work out, and that's about it. I've never seen a
guy win because he put restrictions on his behavior. The courtship
ritual seems all about women putting up barriers and men somehow
getting over them. Realize it's not quite that simple, but there is
an analogy one can draw between sex and courtship in the sense that
men are usually always ready and afterwards will move onto something
else while the challenge for women is to slow things down and make
sure there's more going on afterwards. That's well and good, but I
think a guy is stupid if he starts changing his behvaio to accomidate
women before he's in a relationship. Why? It makes women more
comfortable if a guy does this, she gets to think that she's choosing
among guys who are very different and can pick the few good ones from
among the many frogs (which is how women look at dating, guys should
realize this). But when guys don't do this the truth is women
respond. A French woman once wrote two hundred years ago, "To
succeed men must defy authority, women must conform to it". Not sure
about the second part, but the first definately still true.
Ilya
--------------------------------------------
Take her to party, to see your friends or play ping-pong.
Ilya
Zardoz (bkza...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
|Doug Kihn wrote:
|As long as men play their game and let ourselves be manipulated into
|begging again and again, we lose, and she wins. As soon as we stop
|playing that game and start expecting her to take responsibility for
|half the relationship -- surprise -- we get self respect and she will
|usually take responsibilty. When enough men start demanding respect she
|will know in advance what to do.
That is precisely the point I wanted to make.
Ilya.
Ilya
Zardoz (bkza...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
|Ilya wrote:
|> I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups about
|> "The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I will
|> not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple rules
|> men can use to find Ms. Right!
|
|sole responsiblity for the relationship. Its high time that we men
|demanad that women take equal responsibility or stay home.
With all due respect, I tried NOT to imply that men have sole
responsibility for the potential relationship. I agree with your view.
|> 4. Don't humiliate yourself. If you hear "no", explicitly or not, forget
|> it and don't ask her out again.
|Exactly. If she says "no" its HER turn to ask you, or stay home. She
|has equal responsiblitiy. No self respecting man should not be groveling
|at her feet, begging for her "favors." Our "favors" are as valuable as
|hers. Let her ask us the next time, or she can sit home watching old
|videos.
If she says "I am busy" that means no. But if she really interested she
will say "I am busy tomorrow but I am available some other time". or
something like that.
|Good point. Its OK to fuck your friends too, so if you hear LJBF, be
|forward and ask for clarification. If she says that she means she
|doesn't respect your body or won't consider sex with you, let her sit
|home and spend your time with someone who wants you. Don't be groveling
|and begging at her feet.
Yes.
|> 21. Be creative on a date. Don't take her to a see movie, everybody does
|> that. Instead, take her to see the club you are in, your social/political
|> organization you participate in, your favorite museum or a social event.
|> Take her to party, to see your interesting friends or play ping-pong.
|
|Be more creative the next time, and let her take you to her favorite
|place, and let her pay for it. Equal opportunity is what we've been
|hearing for decades. We men need to demand and expect to be treated as
|if we are valuable for ourselves, not just for our money.
Precisely.
Good luck on the dating front.
==========================================================================
Ilya Beloozerov Email: ibel...@runet.edu
Public PGP key is available at http://www.cs.runet.edu/~ibelooze
This message is sponsored by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
==========================================================================
Dorothy Marker
On Fri, 20 Dec 1996 18:46:13 -0600, Jason Daniels <jdan...@isd.net>
wrote:
>Doug Kihn wrote:
>> The trouble is that sometimes:
>> I'm busy = ask me 2 or 3 more times, because I'm scared, and I need to
>> accumulate more power in this relationship before I can commit to the
>> tiniest thing.
>WOW!
>
>Who would feel comfortable dating a gal who can't make up her own
>mind??? I know I wouldn't! I'm a man, not her BABYSITTER! hehehe
>
>So in other words, no = man did his part, now it's up to the woman. Is
>this an accurate interpretation?
>
>--
>Jason Daniels
Can't the woman be truly busy? Let's see she can't go because
1. she has a wake to attend
2. she has an important meeting
3. she really does have someone sick in her household
4. she's having surgery
5. this list could go on forever.
Just say, "call me when you're free" and you amy rack up
"understanding points"
Dorothy Marker
Ilya
|
|problem, because nearly all women I have ever asked out have said no at
|first. I don't really know why. A psycologist once told me, "try
|three times." But I can't do that. It just isn't honest. The trouble
with honesty is that it doesn't get dates.
I see. I think that my suggestions is still valid. If she says "No" once
then it probably means that she is not interested which means that even if
you get her to go out with you it is not gonna work out. That is the
point.
|It's not honesty, just a lack of sophistication. Why is it that a woman
|will go out with a guy she refuses once if he keeps asking? (and this
Look, if she says no the first time, don't ask her again. If she is really
interested, she will ask you out because she knows how you feel about her.
|he finally got me," one friend of mine said recently after turning down
|the same guy for three months, and she wasn't talking about a date,
|more like an affair.
3 months!?!!? That is ridiculous. No self-respecting person will keep
asking out someone for that long and the women will probably not respect
that man after all these attempts. Bad idea. I think men should stop
humiliating themselves and beg for a date. A date is a good thing but is
it just not worth begging for. One word: Self-respect.
|I think the "rules" for guys are much simpler. Go after what you want,
|be a decent enough guy so there are no long-term consequences if
|something doesn't work out, and that's about it. I've never seen a
|guy win because he put restrictions on his behavior. The courtship
|ritual seems all about women putting up barriers and men somehow
|getting over them.
Sorry, I don't accept this approach. If that is really so, I do not accept
these rules. How do you know? I think I have enough of your broad
generalizations.
Ilya
these dating rules. They can set up all the barriers they want.
Doug Kihn
In <32bcf6f4...@news.on-ramp.net> jwma...@on-ramp.net (Dorothy
"I don't want to go out with you." She doesn't even have to give me a
reason if she doesn't want to. Then at least I won't waste my time and
energy thinking about her, asking her again, etc.
If she is just busy, I wish she could propose an alternative time.
Sometimes that happens. But usually, she just waits, like a victim,
for me to ask again.
Power games.
Dr. Doug
A Dude Who Programs
viva...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn) wrote:
>If a woman doesn't want to go out with me, I wish she would simply say,
>"I don't want to go out with you." She doesn't even have to give me a
>reason if she doesn't want to. Then at least I won't waste my time and
>energy thinking about her, asking her again, etc.
>If she is just busy, I wish she could propose an alternative time.
>Sometimes that happens. But usually, she just waits, like a victim,
>for me to ask again.
Yep. All just more games from women who can't seem to directly tell
men what they want. Why? To get men riled up? or they don't know
exactly what they want? Who knows? I for one wish that I didn't have
to play guessing games with women as to what they're looking for.
Glenn Grotzinger
Web Page: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/3537
Writer of Excellent Training Manual known as the TP Tutorial.
You may find this material on the web page eventually.
Other interesting things will eventually exist as well.
A Dude Who Programs
>|I think the "rules" for guys are much simpler. Go after what you want,
>|be a decent enough guy so there are no long-term consequences if
>|something doesn't work out, and that's about it. I've never seen a
>|guy win because he put restrictions on his behavior. The courtship
>|ritual seems all about women putting up barriers and men somehow
>|getting over them.
Best assessment of dating I've ever seen...
James Bailie
viva...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn) wrote:
> If she is just busy, I wish she could propose an alternative time.
> Sometimes that happens. But usually, she just waits, like a victim,
> for me to ask again.
>
> Power games.
Sounds familar. After becoming infatuated with a waitress at my local
hangout, I asked her out recently. She was busy when I was free. I
just took this for a polite rejection, and let it drop. Now, whenever
I pop into the bar for a pint and she's there, she can only talk to me
for a few moments before tears well up in her eyes and she starts to
sniffle, and she disappears into the kitchen.
James Bailie
the wharf rat
In article <597pse$n...@newslink.runet.edu>, Ilya <ibel...@runet.edu> wrote:
> 18. Do not waste time on email relationships. They generally do not work.
I met my wife of 7 years on the internet, in soc.singles.
> 19. Sex-based relationships are a waste of time and do not work. This one
> is self-evident.
Pffftttt. They are wonderful as long as all the people
involved have the same understanding of things.
Doug Kihn
In <jbailie-85130...@wwdc.com> James Bailie
Unfortunately, she probably feels rejected, because you didn't keep
begging. But you're intincts are right in letting her go. Because iff
you somehow did penetrate her 10" thick armor, you would be forever
trying to penetrate her armor. The way relationships start is almost
always how they continue from then on.
Dr. Doug
Joel Stanley
Diane Westerfield wrote:
> In article <32B773...@umd.umich.edu> you write:
> >No. She is wrong. I wouldn't have asked if I didn't think it right
> >and good. And whatever she does won't change that or me or how I
> >feel.
> Courtship is all very good and well . . . but watch out for the
> stalking. (Goes for both sexes.) If a person says no several times
> and then asks for a restraining order, I think it's time to move on.
Conversely, (and I should have said this,) whatever I do won't change
her or how she feels.
And what business is it of the Government to arbitrate interpersonal
relationships, hmm? (Not that they haven't been since time
immemorial...)
Susan T Graul
Hey, is that *the* wharf rat? Happy Holidays, man!
Cheers,
Sue
James Bailie
viva...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn) wrote:
> Unfortunately, she probably feels rejected, because you didn't keep
> begging. But you're intincts are right in letting her go. Because iff
> you somehow did penetrate her 10" thick armor, you would be forever
> trying to penetrate her armor. The way relationships start is almost
> always how they continue from then on.
Well, I saw her today, and she didn't cry. I don't think she has much
emotional armour at all, that's one of the reasons I'm drawn to her.
She used to open up to me very easily. I just don't know if the crying
means I should stay away, or if I should try and comfort her.
James Bailie
Ilya
the wharf rat (wr...@jump.net) wrote:
|In article <597pse$n...@newslink.runet.edu>, Ilya <ibel...@runet.edu> wrote:
|> 18. Do not waste time on email relationships. They generally do not work.
|
| I met my wife of 7 years on the internet, in soc.singles.
I said "...generally" do not work. There are people who meet each on
soc.singles, and they are just lucky I suppose. You are the exception to
my rule.
Ben Leaman
Ilya wrote:
>
>
> I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups about
> "The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I will
> not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple rules
> men can use to find Ms. Right!
>
>
> 1. Be yourself. That's the most important one. Don't try to imitate
> someone else, and you will attract people like yourself.
>
> 2. Have self-confidence, self-respect and self-esteem, these are
> essential. She has to earn your respect as much as you hers.
>
> pick up women who are like Chevy 57 with 450K miles on them and don't
> run. You deserve better than that.
>
> it and don't ask her out again.
>
> Right". Ask out only the ones you really like and think you have a good
> chance with them, and do not waste your time on the relationships that
> will obviously fail.
>
> 6. Don't play head games and be yourself. However, I think it is a good
>
> 7. Don't get really intimate unless you are really really serious about
> her and are in the engagement or similar phase of the relationship. Don't
> live together unless you are engaged or she made it clear to you that she
> has long term plans and expectations.
>
> Ilya Beloozerov Email: ibel...@runet.edu
> Public PGP key is available at http://www.cs.runet.edu/~ibelooze
> This message is sponsored by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
> ==========================================================================
>
>
>
Kat1210105
Online relationships:
I would only consider a relationship with someone I met online if he lived
in my area and I could meet him in person immediately. If he were someone
1,000 miles away andwe did really start to care for one or another, one of
us would have to pick up and move for us to ever have any kind of real
relationship. That sort of thing doesn't make any sort of sense from a
cost/possible benefit analysis.
"No" and "I'm busy."
To all of the members of the grab-a-clue Club: When a woman says "no" it
means that she doesn't want to see you. You don't have to personalize it.
Maybe she is already married or seriously involved with another man, maybe
she's only in town for a few days and doesn't want a fling, maybe she's a
lesbian--the possibilities are endless.
"I'm busy" is usually a way of saying "no" without actually saying it. But
there is a real possibility that she actually does have plans. I would
suggest making sure that she knows how to contact you and then saying "Too
bad you're busy. If you'd like to call me sometime and ask me out, I'll
say 'yes.'" The ball is in her court then. If she doesn't call, she really
meant "no." If she does, that means she was probably busy for the time
when you asked her out. Simple as that.
Dr. Doug
In <jbailie-85140...@wwdc.com> James Bailie
The fact that you are IN THE DARK concerning her feelings and
intentions indicates she is wearing thick armor. Do you want to always
be wondering what's going on with her? Always be playing guessing
games with her? Always be getting the "come here, go away" message?
I think she needs some counseling. she's not very honest with you,
and probably hiding a lot. You won't change or reform her.
But if you can get some hot sex, GO FOR IT!
Dr. Doug
Ilya
Kat1210105 (kat12...@aol.com) wrote:
|Online relationships:
|I would only consider a relationship with someone I met online if he lived
|in my area and I could meet him in person immediately. If he were someone
|1,000 miles away andwe did really start to care for one or another, one of
|us would have to pick up and move for us to ever have any kind of real
|relationship. That sort of thing doesn't make any sort of sense from a
|cost/possible benefit analysis.
You are absolutely right. There are people who meet *and* have a lasting
relationship on-line just like there are people who win lotteries and do
well on Wall Street. In other words, it is possible but unlikely. I have
talked to some people on the net and I am gradually becoming convinced
that successful romance on the net is an impossibility. Online
relationships are NOT "relationships" the way the term is defined.
|"I'm busy" is usually a way of saying "no" without actually saying it. But
Of course, that is obvious. I do not have a problem with that. Unlike
other men, I am not interested in people who are not interested in
me. Funny how that works. Anyway, thank you for your insightful post.
==========================================================================
Ilya Beloozerov Email: ibel...@runet.edu
Public PGP key is available at http://www.cs.runet.edu/~ibelooze
This message is sponsored by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
==========================================================================
Matthew Daly
In article <19961225044...@ladder01.news.aol.com> kat12...@aol.com (Kat1210105) writes:
>Online relationships:
>I would only consider a relationship with someone I met online if he lived
>in my area and I could meet him in person immediately. If he were someone
>1,000 miles away andwe did really start to care for one or another, one of
>us would have to pick up and move for us to ever have any kind of real
>relationship. That sort of thing doesn't make any sort of sense from a
>cost/possible benefit analysis.
>"No" and "I'm busy."
>To all of the members of the grab-a-clue Club: When a woman says "no" it
>means that she doesn't want to see you. You don't have to personalize it.
>Maybe she is already married or seriously involved with another man, maybe
>she's only in town for a few days and doesn't want a fling, maybe she's a
>lesbian--the possibilities are endless.
>"I'm busy" is usually a way of saying "no" without actually saying it. But
>there is a real possibility that she actually does have plans. I would
>suggest making sure that she knows how to contact you and then saying "Too
>bad you're busy. If you'd like to call me sometime and ask me out, I'll
>say 'yes.'" The ball is in her court then. If she doesn't call, she really
>meant "no." If she does, that means she was probably busy for the time
>when you asked her out. Simple as that.
"Ask me out, I'll say yes" comes across as terribly desperate. She
already knows that she can ask you out, and you don't really want to
tell her that your social life is so lame that you could accept any
entertainment at any time that she suggests.
My clue to the world: never ask someone out on a date by saying something
like "Would you like to go out with me sometime and do something?" Think
of the position you're putting the other person in. Xie knows that
saying "no" is completely heartless, and won't do it, but saying "yes"
is giving you a pretty big blank check. So you'll get a blank look and
a shrug instead.
Instead, ask something more along the lines of "Would you be interested
in dinner and a play this Saturday?" That gives xir a world of possible
responses that will help you to gauge xir interest. You're in the same
position with "no" that you don't know if it means no to this plan or
to any plan that you'll ever come up with, but you're a little more
likely to get a little more talk like "I've seen that play, how about
dancing instead?" or "Could you get tickets for Friday night -- I have
plans for Saturday already." Three consecutive no's without any sort
of give-and-take like that means that xie can take the next step
xirself without your having to make some bitter-sounding plea like
"I'll wait for you to suggest something then."
-Matthew
--
Matthew Daly I don't buy everything I read ... I haven't
da...@ppd.kodak.com even read everything I've bought.
My opinions are not necessarily those of my employer, of course.
Steve Chaney
In article <59e6bv$g...@transfer.stratus.com>, John Fereira <fer...@isis.com> wrote:
>In article <32b96e6e.60932150@news> ski...@msn.com writes:
>>
>>
>>But the response I get most often and which REALLY BUGS me much more
>>than "no" is "I'm busy". How do you interpret that one? "I've
>>already got plans that night" or "I'm busy for the rest of your life"
>
>You could simply ask, "Should I take that to mean you'd like make
>plans for some other time?"
I used that on my first post-engagement date in april of '95, and it
disarmed both her and cleared up my own perception that I was getting a
brush-off.
-- Steve
ke...@upompeii.com
kat wrote:
"I'm busy" is usually a way of saying "no" without actually saying it.
But
there is a real possibility that she actually does have plans. I would
suggest making sure that she knows how to contact you and then saying
"Too
bad you're busy. If you'd like to call me sometime and ask me out, I'll
say 'yes.'" The ball is in her court then. If she doesn't call, she
really
meant "no." If she does, that means she was probably busy for the time
when you asked her out. Simple as that.
========================
There's nothing wrong with people wanting to get the most flexability
possible, but the above reminds me why I get that funny smile whenever
I hear some story about a guy jerking a woman over. It's because so
many women have this attitude, "I'm a princess and I'm doing any man
I date an enormous favor by going out with him", and it's nice when
reality reasserts itself. If I ask a woman out and she says she's
busy (which almost never happens, it's easy to gauge these things
beforehand) I'm not going to give her a blank check. I will express
some disappointment, smile, and stay friends with her, but the
obligation for starting something after that (if that's what she
wants) is hers. Lastly, whenever I've heard the "I'm busy" excuse
and it's not accompanied by some explenation ("I have to attend my
cousin's wedding", "My dog's graduating from obedience school", etc.)
I know what it usually means, she's seeing someone else but doesn't
want to tell me because she's keeping her options open. Which I have
no problems with. She still doesn't get the blank check (although
I might ask again if she later hints she's interested, not as likely
if I really think I'm the also ran).
Amy Slater
On 25 Dec 1996 21:04:28 GMT, ibel...@runet.edu (Ilya) wrote:
>Kat1210105 (kat12...@aol.com) wrote:
>|Online relationships:
>|I would only consider a relationship with someone I met online if he lived
>|in my area and I could meet him in person immediately. If he were someone
>|1,000 miles away andwe did really start to care for one or another, one of
>|us would have to pick up and move for us to ever have any kind of real
>|relationship. That sort of thing doesn't make any sort of sense from a
>|cost/possible benefit analysis.
>
> You are absolutely right. There are people who meet *and* have a lasting
> relationship on-line just like there are people who win lotteries and do
> well on Wall Street. In other words, it is possible but unlikely. I have
> talked to some people on the net and I am gradually becoming convinced
> that successful romance on the net is an impossibility. Online
> relationships are NOT "relationships" the way the term is defined.
One thing that makes online relationships so hard is that the element
of chemistry can't be there because you haven't met in person. I
consider chemistry, in addition to personality etc, vital to a
relationship. Over the computer, you can't see how the other person
interacts with other people, or their mannerisms, etc. I think that
finding someone you are wholly compatible with over the net requires
luck, meeting in person a few times, and hard work.
Amy
Brenda
A Dude Who Programs wrote:
>
> viva...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn) wrote:
>
> >If a woman doesn't want to go out with me, I wish she would simply say,
> >"I don't want to go out with you." She doesn't even have to give me a
> >reason if she doesn't want to. Then at least I won't waste my time and
> >energy thinking about her, asking her again, etc.
>
> >Sometimes that happens. But usually, she just waits, like a victim,
> >for me to ask again.
>
> men what they want. Why? To get men riled up? or they don't know
> exactly what they want? Who knows? I for one wish that I didn't have
> to play guessing games with women as to what they're looking for.
>
Hi, here's a female response to that.
************************************************************************
A while back I went to an antique show in Burbank by myself. I was
wearing nothing special, black pants and a black sweater. I have longish
blonde hair and am 122- 5'4" If I'm by myself usually someone might
come up to me and chit chat. I'm not bragging, in fact I sort of hate
it. Why, I don't like strange men trying to pick me up. No, they haven't
seen me in a sitcom, or no I didn't go to school with them...
I used to be really shy, and part of that never goes away. Anyway,
I'm at this show, fondling a doily, when this guy comes up to me and
asks me if I'd like to join him for a cup of coffee. I do have a
boyfriend, but I don't wear a teeshirt that advertises it, so I have to
tell him something. It's alot of pressure to tell something negative to
a stranger who's behaviour patterns you aren't aware of. My response to
him was to blush and smile and say no thank you meekly.
"Why not?" he demands to know. "Um, because, I uh just don't. But thank
you anyway". (I do not wish to hurt his feelings.)
"Do you know what your problem is?" he asks me... "what?" I inquire.
"You're blocked!" he spits out and proceeds to walk away in a huff.
I just stood there, feeling shades of shock and bewilderment, wondering
how someone I didn't even know could be so rude to me. He really scared
me, I was terrified walking back to my car.
Anyway, the point. Maybe women aren't playing games with you, pal. Maybe
these women game-players might just might feel a bit uncomfortable from
previous experiences.
ANother thing that's drummed into women's heads is that men prefer the
chase. That they feel emasculated if we deny them that. Tell me
truthfully, that you don't find it a bit feminine if she doesn't chase
you down to the ends of the earth.
IF you're confused and either of you can read each other's minds, then
try this:
Hi, Sandra, I was calling to ask you to do something with me, like a
date.
Oh, when?
How's about Saturday.
NO, I can't then. (she doesn't want to tell you she's having her
moustache waxed) and not quick enough on her feet to suggest another
date.
Okay then, (rather than you feeling instantly rebuffed) how about a
sunday picnic? If she says no to this without offering you an excuse,
she isn't interersted or really shy. So say, well, if you change your
mind, here's my number. (this tells her that you have made all the
effort you're going to make, and puts the ball in her court.)
WHen she calls you back and says okay to sunday, and you say sorry, I've
since made plans, she'll most likely want to go out with you more now
than before, as other women must find you desireable, she must find out
why!!! Okay sorry, that last bit spiraled into bad TeenBeat column
advice, but my point is, rather than call women game players, keep in
mind that there are lots of factors that you might not have considered,
and as long as you've covered all of your bases, that's all that you can
do.
xoxoxoxox
BrendaR
Ilya
I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups about
"The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I will
not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple rules
men can use to find Ms. Right!
--------------------------------------------
1. Be yourself. Do not try to imitate someone else and you will attract
people like yourself. That's the most important one.
2. Have self-confidence, self-respect and self-esteem, these are
essential. She has to earn your respect as much as you hers.
3. Don't pursue women who are not worth pursuing. A very simple concept.
Do not go to bars to pick up women who are like Chevy 57 with 450K miles
on them and don't run. You deserve better than that.
4. Don't humiliate yourself. If you hear "no", explicitly or not, forget
it and don't ask her out again.
5. Don't ask out women who are obviously not in the category of "Ms.
Right". Ask out only the ones you really like and think you have a good
chance with them, and do not waste your time on the relationships that
will obviously fail.
6. Don't play head games and be yourself. However, I think it is a good
idea to not return her phone calls within 24 hours, unless you really want
to. You are not desperate and do not need to contact her 5 minutes after
she leaves a message on your answering machine saying that she wants to go
on a date.
7. Don't get really intimate unless you are really really serious about
her and are in the engagement or similar phase of the relationship. Don't
live together unless you are engaged or she made it clear to you that she
has long term plans and expectations. Reality check: There is an AIDS
epidemic in this country, and it is not a good idea to get intimate with
people you do not completely trust.
17. Generally it is a bad idea to date your boss. If you break up with
her, she could get mad and fire you or just work you to death. Keep in
mind that most workers do not have any rights at all. A boss cannot be a
friend.
18. Do not waste time on email relationships. They generally do not work.
You may think that your email partner is a 20 year old girl while she
actually may be a 40 year old man or vice-versa. Most email conversations
remain conversations and do not evolve into something more serious. People
in real life are not even close to their "net" personalities. On the other
hand, email conversations sometimes have more substance than phone or real
life conversations and go far beyond "Hi, how are you".
19. Sex-based relationships do not work.
20. Do not expect perfection. Understand that your date is an imperfect
human being in an imperfect world. Tolerate her weaknesses and expect her
to understand that you are infallible.
21. Be creative on a date. Don't take her to a see movie, everybody does
that. Instead, take her to see the club you are in, your social/political
organization you participate in, your favorite museum or a social event.
Take her to party, to see your friends or play ping-pong.
==========================================================================
Ilya Beloozerov Email: ibel...@runet.edu
Public PGP key is available at http://www.cs.runet.edu/~ibelooze
This message is sponsored by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Erika Linden Green
In article <jbailie-85140...@wwdc.com>, James Bailie
<jba...@wwdc.com> wrote:
> Well, I saw her today, and she didn't cry. I don't think she has much
> emotional armour at all, that's one of the reasons I'm drawn to her.
> She used to open up to me very easily. I just don't know if the crying
> means I should stay away, or if I should try and comfort her.
This from a woman.....Give it just one more try, for the hell of it.
Otherwise, you'll always wonder, no?
Erika
Frederick W. Chapman
In article <59seu2$d...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
Dr. Doug <viva...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <jbailie-85140...@wwdc.com> James Bailie
><jba...@wwdc.com> writes:
>>
>> viva...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn) wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately, she probably feels rejected, because you didn't
>keep
>>> begging. But you're intincts are right in letting her go. Because
>iff
>>> you somehow did penetrate her 10" thick armor, you would be forever
>>> trying to penetrate her armor. The way relationships start is
>almost
>>> always how they continue from then on.
>>
>>emotional armour at all, that's one of the reasons I'm drawn to her.
>>She used to open up to me very easily. I just don't know if the crying
>>means I should stay away, or if I should try and comfort her.
>>
>>
>James,
> The fact that you are IN THE DARK concerning her feelings and
>intentions indicates she is wearing thick armor. Do you want to always
>be wondering what's going on with her? Always be playing guessing
>games with her? Always be getting the "come here, go away" message?
> I think she needs some counseling. she's not very honest with you,
>and probably hiding a lot. You won't change or reform her.
> But if you can get some hot sex, GO FOR IT!
>
>Dr. Doug
She need counseling? She's dishonest? Where do you get that from,
Doug?
I think that all this speculation about the thickness of her emotional
armor has gone to ridiculous extremes.
James, if you want to know what the crying means, why don't you just
ask her?
You might also consider the possibility that perhaps she actually
wanted to go out with you. When she said she was busy, perhaps she
simply meant that she had another committment and wasn't giving you a
"polite rejection." Again, the only way to find out is to ask her.
Good luck,
Fred
--
Frederick W. Chapman, University of Waterloo (fwch...@daisy.uwaterloo.ca)
- Department of Applied Mathematics MC 5162 (519) 888-4567, x6672
- Symbolic Computation Group/Maple Lab DC 2302F (519) 888-4567, x3205
Applied Mathematics, University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ont., N2L 3G1, CANADA
Frederick W. Chapman
>a stranger who's behaviour patterns you aren't aware of.
That's an unusual belief. I'd like to ask you some questions about it:
Does saying "I'm very flattered by your offer, and I wish I could accept,
but I have a boyfriend" constitute "something negative"?
What kind of "behaviour patterns" do you expect from strangers? Do you
harbor the fear that any strange man who approaches you is automatically
threatening and dangerous, even in a crowded public place, even in broad
daylight? Do you think that such a fear is rational?
>My response to
>him was to blush and smile and say no thank you meekly.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's important to realize that your actions may be perceived differently
than you intend. I believe many men would perceive you as acting coy,
flirting, and say "no" all at the same time. Men generally find mixed
messages very frustrating.
>"Why not?" he demands to know. "Um, because, I uh just don't. But thank
>you anyway". (I do not wish to hurt his feelings.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How would it have hurt his feelings to tell him the truth -- that you
have a boyfriend? The way you handled it undoubtedly DID hurt his
feelings.
It probably looked to him like your rejection was personal, since you
him gave no real reason for it. If you had said that you have a
boyfriend, you could have allowed him the dignity of concluding that
your rejection was not personal and had nothing to do with him. But
the way you handled it allowed only one likely conclusion: that your
rejection WAS personal and had EVERYTHING to do with him. And you
wonder why he was upset?
>"Do you know what your problem is?" he asks me... "what?" I inquire.
>"You're blocked!" he spits out and proceeds to walk away in a huff.
>I just stood there, feeling shades of shock and bewilderment, wondering
~~~~~~~~~
>how someone I didn't even know could be so rude to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My dear, he probably wondered the same thing -- how you could be so rude to
him! Your reply, "Um, because, I uh just don't" is really a non-answer.
You don't owe him a reply, but if you do reply, something with some factual
content would be perceived as more polite and indicate greater respect.
Another thing you need to realize is that shy people are sometimes
misperceived as being aloof and snobbish. That may not be fair to
shy people, but it is a reality that you have to deal with.
>He really scared me, I was terrified walking back to my car.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm sorry if what I'm about to say sounds clinical and detached -- I don't
mean to downplay the unpleasantness of the feelings you experienced, but
this raises a whole bundle of issues. Were you right or wrong to feel
those feelings? Who was responsible for those feelings? Can feelings
serve in place of facts?
First, feelings are neither right nor wrong. I cannot and will not say you
were wrong to feel scared or terrified. Your feelings are by definition
legitimate. However, it is also fundamentally true that YOUR feelings, be
they fear or some other emotion, are YOUR responsibility. Other people
don't "make you feel afraid" -- fear is a choice YOU have in response to
any stimulus you encounter. You can't lay blame on that man or anybody
else for YOUR feelings. Thus, although, your feelings are always
legitimate, they are also your responsibility, not somebody else's.
Now whether the man actually posed a threat to your safety is a matter of
FACT, not feeling. Frankly, since all the man did was verbally express his
upset feelings in response to your less-than-diplomatic rejection, you have
no factual basis on which to conclude that he posed a threat to your
safety. In fact, based on what you have told us, his response seemed to be
in reasonable proportion to your own behavior (in my opinion).
I hope you can see how your own behavior in this exchange may have
precipitated the very response you feared most from this man, thereby
validating your fears in your own mind and reinforcing your preconceptions
that "all strange men are dangerous." I suspect your preconceptions became
a self-fulfilling prophecy, something like this:
1) "This strange man could be dangerous, so I won't be honest or direct."
2) "Instead, I'll give him some fluffy, no-content brush-off line."
3) "He's angry and upset at my fluffy, no-content brush-off line!"
4) "He must really be dangerous!"
Had you simply said, "How nice of you to ask, but I can't accept your
lovely offer -- I have a boyfriend", I bet you would have elicited a
completely different response from this man, because he would have known
you respected him enough to give him a real, honest answer -- one which
preserved his dignity by making clear that you were not rejecting him
personally, or acting stuck-up and aloof. I'm not saying that you were
acting stuck-up and aloof, but that he may have perceived you as such.
>Anyway, the point. Maybe women aren't playing games with you, pal. Maybe
>these women game-players might just might feel a bit uncomfortable from
>previous experiences.
Why not treat all men as unique individuals instead of as clones from
your past? By doing so, you are more likely to shape the outcome in a
positive direction. You can start by being direct and honest to the
men who approach you, without being brutal, cutting, or unkind. It
can be done! And you'll probably be much happier with the results.
Good luck,
Fred Chapman
James Bailie
fwch...@daisy.uwaterloo.ca (Frederick W. Chapman) wrote:
> James, if you want to know what the crying means, why don't you just
> ask her?
I ambled over the restaurant today to see her, and lo and behold, it
must be the first Saturday in months she wasn't working. I was going
to confront her gently and settle everything once and for all. Ah, the
frustration.
Actually, we had a date to go to a party together on Boxing Day, but I
didn't bother to bring the subject up again after she starting crying
whenever I was in the bar, and I went alone. She was very interested
in going to this party, and I just thought we should go for dinner at
least once and get to know each other a bit. The rejection doesn't
faze me. I don't mind just being friends.
> You might also consider the possibility that perhaps she actually
> wanted to go out with you. When she said she was busy, perhaps she
> simply meant that she had another committment and wasn't giving you a
> "polite rejection." Again, the only way to find out is to ask her.
The ball is in her court, then. I've expressed my interest. Surely she
can suggest another time? I've been polite, non-aggressive, utterly
non-persistent in the inquiries I've put to her. If she won't lift a
finger to encourage this relationship, then she is either not
interested, or wishes me to be a combination father/psychic to her,
and in that case, I don't want her.
James Bailie
Frederick W. Chapman
In article <32C47E...@Neversoft.com>, Brenda <Bre...@Neversoft.com> wrote:
>A Dude Who Programs wrote:
>>
>> viva...@ix.netcom.com(Doug Kihn) wrote:
>>
>> >If a woman doesn't want to go out with me, I wish she would simply say,
>> >"I don't want to go out with you." She doesn't even have to give me a
>> >reason if she doesn't want to. Then at least I won't waste my time and
>> >energy thinking about her, asking her again, etc.
>>
>> >If she is just busy, I wish she could propose an alternative time.
>> >Sometimes that happens. But usually, she just waits, like a victim,
>> >for me to ask again.
>>
>> Yep. All just more games from women who can't seem to directly tell
>> men what they want. Why? To get men riled up? or they don't know
>> exactly what they want? Who knows? I for one wish that I didn't have
>> to play guessing games with women as to what they're looking for.
Here's my personal theory as to why women are not more direct in their
dealings with men, as well as a case history you might find interesting...
Many people in our society, particularly women, are socialized to
communicate in a non-assertive way -- which means that they don't openly
and directly express their feelings, desires, and preferences when faced
with a potential conflict situation. Why is that? Because they believe
that they are responsible for other people's feelings. If they express
themselves directly and honestly, and the recipient feels hurt by their
message, they will hold themselves responsible for those hurt feelings.
Women, especially, are socialized to believe that they are responsible for
the feelings of those around them, and that it is their role to "fix" other
people's feelings. Thus, these non-assertive patterns of communication
become ingrained as a strategy for "sparing the feelings of others," when
in fact, they often have exactly the opposite effect.
Women who usually communicate non-assertively may at times overcompensate
with aggressive behavior -- meaning that they ultimately do express their
wishes and achieve their goals, but at someone else's expense. Here is an
actual case history of such aggression.
Consider two co-workers, one female and one male, who have an amicable
working relationship and regular friendly conversations about mutual
personal interests. Eventually, the female co-worker is asked out by the
male co-worker, and responds by describing in detail her plans for a
conflicting committment, thereby giving the impression that she is busy
rather than disinterested; the male co-worker later asks her out on two
separate occasions, and receives exactly the same kind of response -- a
detailed description of a conflicting committment, with no indication of
disinterest in the male co-worker's invitation. Rather than tell the male
co-worker that she is not interested in dating him the very first time he
asks her out, she repeatedly gives ambiguous if not misleading replies to
"spare his feelings" -- and then, after the third non-rejection, she asks
his supervisor to inform him that she is not interested in dating him.
Note that she did NOT complain of coercion or sexual harassment -- she
simply didn't want to date him, but was unwilling to tell him so herself.
In this example, the female co-worker abdicated her personal responsibility
to express her wishes clearly and directly to her male peer, and resorted
to an act of aggression -- namely, invoking an authority figure to relieve
her of the potentially unpleasant task of expressing her rejection in
person. Although the supervisor confirmed that the male employee had NOT
done anything wrong, the involvement of the administration in the male
employee's personal affairs was nevertheless a traumatic and stressful
experience which adversely affected that employee's health. Thus, the
female employee achieved her goal, but at the expense of the male employee
-- and that is aggression. Achieving one's goals by hurting others is
fundamentally unethical.
The solution is for all people to realize that they are responsible for
their OWN feelings. In particular, women are NOT responsible for the
feelings of those around them, nor is it their role to "fix" the feelings
of others. This realization would free women to express their feelings,
desires, and preferences directly and honestly, even in a potential
conflict situation. If the woman has done her best to express herself with
tact and diplomacy, she bears no responsibility for the feelings of the
recipient of her message -- that responsibility lies with the recipient.
In the case of asking for a date, the man assumes both the willingness to
risk rejection and the responsibility for any feelings he may incur through
rejection. None of this, by the way, should be taken as an excuse for
women to be brutal, insensitive, or deliberately unkind in expressing
rejection. There is an exception to the general rule that people are
responsible for their own feelings -- when people DELIBERATELY try to hurt
others, they ARE responsible for the hurt feelings that result.
In summary, more feelings are hurt through indirect, non-assertive
communication designed to "spare the feelings of others" than would be hurt
through direct, assertive, non-aggressive communication.
When will we ever learn? :-)
ming of mongo
Someone mentioned that, "men need to chase."
In my case, I must call bullshit on that. I don't need or want to chase
anyone. I want to meet women who want to date. Ultimately I want to
fall maddly in love with someone who loves me back. Quite a
straight-forward idea, huh?
I love to play games... Chess, Space Invaders, Miniature Golf... I love'em.
Romance, love and sex are not games. Fun, yes... but not games.
So, I must ask; Is there some kind of correspondance school or something
that teaches women to say things they don't mean, and play games with
men's heads?
The way I see the game, if I win, I get a date. That means that if you
win, I don't get the date... and you don't either. This game sucks.
I have a great new idea for a game. A man and a woman get together, and
actually try to make contact... BOTH try. If it works, they BOTH WIN!
If not, they politely, and deliberately change partners and try again.
Charlotte L. Blackmer
In article <59s4ss$p...@newslink.runet.edu>, Ilya <ibel...@runet.edu> wrote:
>Kat1210105 (kat12...@aol.com) wrote:
>|Online relationships:
>|I would only consider a relationship with someone I met online if he lived
>|in my area and I could meet him in person immediately. If he were someone
>|1,000 miles away andwe did really start to care for one or another, one of
>|us would have to pick up and move for us to ever have any kind of real
>|relationship. That sort of thing doesn't make any sort of sense from a
>|cost/possible benefit analysis.
>
> You are absolutely right. There are people who meet *and* have a lasting
> relationship on-line just like there are people who win lotteries and do
> well on Wall Street. In other words, it is possible but unlikely.
Heh. If this is true, given what I've seen so far around me in not
one, not two, but three of the newsgroups I regularly participate in, I'm
going to call my investment advisor *and* pop down to the mini-mart to
get some Lotto tickets.
C"we're in the money"LB
------------------------------------------------------
Charlotte L. Blackmer c...@rahul.net
Berkeley Farm and Pleasure Palace (under construction)
Junk (esp. commercial) email review rates: $250 US ea
Frederick W. Chapman
In article <jbailie-85183...@wwdc.com>,
James Bailie <jba...@wwdc.com> wrote:
> fwch...@daisy.uwaterloo.ca (Frederick W. Chapman) wrote:
>
>> James, if you want to know what the crying means, why don't you just
>> ask her?
>
>I ambled over the restaurant today to see her, and lo and behold, it
>must be the first Saturday in months she wasn't working. I was going
>to confront her gently and settle everything once and for all. Ah, the
>frustration.
>
>Actually, we had a date to go to a party together on Boxing Day, but I
>didn't bother to bring the subject up again after she starting crying
>whenever I was in the bar, and I went alone. She was very interested
>in going to this party, and I just thought we should go for dinner at
>least once and get to know each other a bit. The rejection doesn't
>faze me. I don't mind just being friends.
I know I'm jumping into the middle of this thread, so forgive me if
I've overlooked something important, but I gotta ask ya.... WHAT
rejection? I remember reading that she was busy when you were free.
You said you assumed that was a polite rejection, but I see no reason
not to take her statement at face value. Of course, if you want to
know, all you have to do is ask her. Yes, I am a great believer in
the direct approach!
>> You might also consider the possibility that perhaps she actually
>> wanted to go out with you. When she said she was busy, perhaps she
>> simply meant that she had another committment and wasn't giving you a
>> "polite rejection." Again, the only way to find out is to ask her.
>
>The ball is in her court, then. I've expressed my interest. Surely she
>can suggest another time?
The dating ritual generally doesn't work that way in our culture. The
ritual she's probably used to is that the man asks, and the woman
responds. She may be waiting for you to ask again and suggest another
time. Maybe that's why she's crying -- because she regrets missing an
opportunity to be with you; if she is depending on your initiative
(due to cultural custom) and you aren't taking the initiative, she may
feel that opportunity has been forever lost. Wouldn't it be worth a
simple, direct question to clear all this up?
>I've been polite, non-aggressive, utterly
>non-persistent in the inquiries I've put to her.
Maybe you've been too non-aggressive and non-persistent from her point
of view -- many a message has been lost through excessive subtlety.
Maybe she wants to be asked again, in a direct and unequivocal
fashion.
>If she won't lift a
>finger to encourage this relationship, then she is either not
>interested, or wishes me to be a combination father/psychic to her,
>and in that case, I don't want her.
Those are not the only possible conclusions. She may simply be
playing a different role and have different expectations of your role
due to the dating rituals that are customary in our culture. You can
easily resolve this stalemate simply by asking her a straightforward
question. What have you got to lose?
The reason I keep goading you to take the direct approach is that
people so often overlook the most obvious and easy solution to such
situations, and that is to simply ASK what they want to know, instead
of speculating, hypothesizing, and making all kinds of (possibly
unwarranted) assumptions. One direct question is worth a thousand
assumptions, my friend!
Again, I wish you good luck,
Fred
LH
>
> I have seen a lot of posts on soc.singles and some other newsgroups about
> "The Rules", a book that helps women to find Mr. Right, and while I will
> not write a similar book for men, I came up with this set of simple rules
> men can use to find Ms. Right!
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
I agree with most of what you said except for the following "rules":
>
> 6. Don't play head games and be yourself. However, I think it is a good
> idea to not return her phone calls within 24 hours, unless you really want
> to. You are not desperate and do not need to contact her 5 minutes after
> she leaves a message on your answering machine saying that she wants to go
> on a date.
It is a head game to not call someone back within 24 hours just to show
her you are not desparate...plus it is rude.
>
> 10. Correctly interpret her message. If she says "Let's just be friends"
> she does not think there is any potential for romance, she does not care
> about you. Forget her. LJBF is best translated as "get lost".
LJBF doesn't mean get lost, it means just be friends and no romance. That
can be fun and fulfulling if both parties agree.
>
> 16. If after dating a woman for a while you find out that you are
> incompatible, stop dating her. You generally cannot change people.
But tell her WHY!
>
> 18. Do not waste time on email relationships... People
> in real life are not even close to their "net" personalities.<
Not always.
>
> 21. Be creative on a date. Don't take her to a see movie, everybody does
> that. Instead, take her to see the club you are in, your social/political
> organization you participate in, your favorite museum or a social event.
> Take her to party, to see your friends or play ping-pong.
Except for the friends part. I would hate meet his friends while on a
date. That should later after being together awhile. Almost as stressful
as meeting the family! <g>
L'ra
Brynn Jacobs
AMEN---Listen to this man!
ming of mongo <mi...@server.snni.com> wrote in article
<5a5ihc$5...@news.snni.com>...
A Dude Who Programs
mi...@server.snni.com (ming of mongo) wrote:
>Someone mentioned that, "men need to chase."
>In my case, I must call bullshit on that. I don't need or want to chase
>anyone. I want to meet women who want to date. Ultimately I want to
>fall maddly in love with someone who loves me back. Quite a
>straight-forward idea, huh?
I agree with that. That idea is entirely bullshit. Oddly enough,
that's what I'd like to be involved in...none of this bullshit women
come up with about saying something they don't mean...and especially
all this bullshit I keep seeing from women about appearance and money.
No love there. and all of this is LOVE? Spare me the bullshit.
Glenn Grotzinger
Web Page: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/3537
Writer of Excellent Training Manual known as the TP Tutorial.
You may find this material on the web page eventually.
Other interesting things will eventually exist as well.
A Dude Who Programs
lhar...@servco.com (LH) wrote:
>> 10. Correctly interpret her message. If she says "Let's just be friends"
>> she does not think there is any potential for romance, she does not care
>> about you. Forget her. LJBF is best translated as "get lost".
>LJBF doesn't mean get lost, it means just be friends and no romance. That
>can be fun and fulfulling if both parties agree.
No. I doubt it. Women CAN NOT DIRECTLY AND HONESTLY EXPRESS THEIR
DESIRES AND WISHES. LJBF is always best translated as "get lost you
loser! I wouldn't even associate with you if you're the last man on
earth". Best thing when you hear LJBF is to LEAVE and NEVER COME
BACK.
Giles
LH <lhar...@servco.com> wrote in article
<lhartley-291...@mls01.imt.net>...
> It is a head game to not call someone back within 24 hours just to show
> her you are not desparate...plus it is rude.
I don't agree, how many women make it a point to call back
right away? None that I know of, they wait around so they
don't appear desperate. The fact is you don't want men to
have an equal playing field.
> > 10. Correctly interpret her message. If she says "Let's just be
friends"
> > she does not think there is any potential for romance, she does not
care
> > about you. Forget her. LJBF is best translated as "get lost".
>
> LJBF doesn't mean get lost, it means just be friends and no romance. That
> can be fun and fulfulling if both parties agree.
LJBF means get lost as far as a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship
goes and if the guy feels he does want to date her without that
being a possibility, why should he have to suffer? So the womans
feelings won't be hurt? What about his feelings?
> > 16. If after dating a woman for a while you find out that you
are
> > incompatible, stop dating her. You generally cannot change people.
>
> But tell her WHY!
Been there, Done that! It doesn't work. I've tried and when
a guy wants to break up he's a real villian. But it's ok when
the woman wants to break up. Men shouldn't have to be the
bad guys.
> > 18. Do not waste time on email relationships... People
> > in real life are not even close to their "net" personalities.<
> Except for the friends part. I would hate meet his friends while on a
> date. That should later after being together awhile. Almost as stressful
> as meeting the family! <g>
But is it ok for him to meet your friends on a date? Most women
tend to think so. Why? Because THEY feel comfortable.
But I agree it's best that at first a date be left to the 2 people
involved.
-Giles
LH
>
> I don't agree, how many women make it a point to call back
> right away? None that I know of, they wait around so they
> don't appear desperate. The fact is you don't want men to
> have an equal playing field.
I can't say what many or most women do, just what I do. I call back as
soon as I can after getting message. I suppose I have an unrealistic view
of what men and women "should" behave like. Polite for one. As for wanting
men to have an equal playing field - not sure what you mean. I "always"
feel at a disadvantage! :-)
> LJBF means get lost as far as a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship
> goes and if the guy feels he does want to date her without that
> being a possibility, why should he have to suffer? So the womans
> feelings won't be hurt? What about his feelings?
But if he dates her knowing that she is not interested in romance, why is
he going to suffer? He is responsible for his feelings, not her. If it
hurts him to continue seeing her then he needs to say "adios"! But in
saying that...
I ended up with a very good friend that way that we both enjoyed the
relationship and its benefits.
>
> Been there, Done that! It doesn't work. I've tried and when
> a guy wants to break up he's a real villian. But it's ok when
> the woman wants to break up. Men shouldn't have to be the
> bad guys.
Sorry, can't agree with you here, unless one party is really screwing
around with the other's head (and it others' beds) there shouldn't be in
villains. Again, am I being to naive?
>
> But is it ok for him to meet your friends on a date? Most women
> tend to think so. Why? Because THEY feel comfortable.
> But I agree it's best that at first a date be left to the 2 people
> involved.
I think we amost agree here, nobody needs to be meetin' no friends on
those first few dates!
Lara
Zardoz
LH (Lara) wrote:
someone wrote:
> > LJBF means get lost as far as a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship
> > goes and if the guy feels he does want to date her without that
> > being a possibility, why should he have to suffer? So the womans
> > feelings won't be hurt? What about his feelings?
>
> But if he dates her knowing that she is not interested in romance, why is
> he going to suffer? He is responsible for his feelings, not her. If it
> hurts him to continue seeing her then he needs to say "adios"! But in
> saying that...
> I ended up with a very good friend that way that we both enjoyed the
> relationship and its benefits.
This discussion seems to assume that you can't have sex with a
"friend." The LJBF demand inisits that "friendship" is OK but sex with
a "friend" is out. I don't buy that assumption. I have seen nothing in
my years of experience that makes sex with a friend anything less than
good. The LJBF demand is tantamount to telling someone that they are
less than acceptable as a man. I agree with the original rule. As long
as the woman says flat out that sex is out, the relationship has a
serious problem. She does not accept the man as a valid male being. Its
time for him to spend his time with someone who respects him as a man as
well as a friend.
Blessed Be
ZardoZ
The opinions expressed herein are mine alone and do not represent the
opinions or policy of any organization.
All material is the copyright property of the author and may not be
reproduced in any manner without specific permission.
SierraSunset
On Sun, 29 Dec 1996, A Dude Who Programs wrote:
> lhar...@servco.com (LH) wrote:
>
>
> >> 10. Correctly interpret her message. If she says "Let's just be friends"
> >> she does not think there is any potential for romance, she does not care
> >> about you. Forget her. LJBF is best translated as "get lost".
>
> >LJBF doesn't mean get lost, it means just be friends and no romance. That
> >can be fun and fulfulling if both parties agree.
>
> No. I doubt it. Women CAN NOT DIRECTLY AND HONESTLY EXPRESS THEIR
> DESIRES AND WISHES. LJBF is always best translated as "get lost you
> loser! I wouldn't even associate with you if you're the last man on
> earth". Best thing when you hear LJBF is to LEAVE and NEVER COME
> BACK.
>
No, NO, *NO*> Men, stop perpetuating this bullshit. Let's be friends
means let's be friends. to force an "all or nothing" situation is the
height of juvenile jerkiness.
SierraSunset
On Sun, 29 Dec 1996, Zardoz wrote:
> LH (Lara) wrote:
> someone wrote:
> > > LJBF means get lost as far as a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship
> > > goes and if the guy feels he does want to date her without that
> > > being a possibility, why should he have to suffer? So the womans
> > > feelings won't be hurt? What about his feelings?
> >
> > But if he dates her knowing that she is not interested in romance, why is
> > he going to suffer? He is responsible for his feelings, not her. If it
> > hurts him to continue seeing her then he needs to say "adios"! But in
> > saying that...
> > I ended up with a very good friend that way that we both enjoyed the
> > relationship and its benefits.
>
>
> This discussion seems to assume that you can't have sex with a
> "friend." The LJBF demand inisits that "friendship" is OK but sex with
> a "friend" is out. I don't buy that assumption. I have seen nothing in
> my years of experience that makes sex with a friend anything less than
> good. The LJBF demand is tantamount to telling someone that they are
> less than acceptable as a man. I agree with the original rule. As long
> as the woman says flat out that sex is out, the relationship has a
> serious problem. She does not accept the man as a valid male being. Its
> time for him to spend his time with someone who respects him as a man as
> well as a friend.
>
So sex alone makes a man "valid".?
How sad for you, that your grasp of value is so limited.
Jeanne
Giles
> I can't say what many or most women do, just what I do. I call back as
> soon as I can after getting message. I suppose I have an unrealistic view
> of what men and women "should" behave like. Polite for one. As for
wanting
> men to have an equal playing field - not sure what you mean. I "always"
> feel at a disadvantage! :-)
Men should be polite as should women, there shouldn't be a monopoly
on it. I do know for a fact that many women that I have dated and
known as friends want to make men wait so they don't seem desperate.
I cannot see how you feel at a disadvantage. Equal means Equal
Men are often forced into playing the games that put women in a
position of power and authority. Men have to do the asking, men usually
end up having to decide where to go especially on a first date and
if men want to break up because it isn't working out we are the bad guys.
I could go on, but I digress... Dating is geared towards what women want
and god forbid you aren't working when you ask a woman out!
A non-working man = total loser to 99% of the women out there.
> But if he dates her knowing that she is not interested in romance, why is
> he going to suffer? He is responsible for his feelings, not her. If it
> hurts him to continue seeing her then he needs to say "adios"! But in
> saying that...
That's my point tho, if the guy wants to date and the woman does not
the guy should leave unless he can really handle it and I do know for
a fact that women that *I* have said LJBF to have seen that as an
opportunity to maybe date in the future when it will never happen.
If you are looking for friends then don't ask the woman out on a date.
> I ended up with a very good friend that way that we both enjoyed the
> relationship and its benefits.
Yes, but if the guy expects more he should turn around and leave.
> > Been there, Done that! It doesn't work. I've tried and when
> > a guy wants to break up he's a real villian. But it's ok when
> > the woman wants to break up. Men shouldn't have to be the
> > bad guys.
>
> Sorry, can't agree with you here, unless one party is really screwing
> around with the other's head (and it others' beds) there shouldn't be in
> villains. Again, am I being to naive?
Yes, you are being naive. I have had some very bad experiences
trying to break up with women that the relationship was not going
to work out without any doubt in my mind. No should mean No.
If a woman says NO to sex that is her choice, correct? It's her body.
Well the same should apply to men as well. Plus all her GF's will
come around and say what a loser the guy was for dumping her etc...
> I think we amost agree here, nobody needs to be meetin' no friends on
> those first few dates!
It all depends tho doesn't it. If you were dating Fabio or whatever
your personal equivilant happens to be. Would you really not
want your friends to see you together? It's mainly when women
*might* feel embarrassed about the guy they are with that they
don't want to bump into their friends. But i still think it's a bad
idea to see friends on the first few dates, mainly because
the man feels out of place while the woman chats it up with her
friends.
-Giles
K. Serrano
ni.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Distribution:
ming of mongo (mi...@server.snni.com) wrote:
: Someone mentioned that, "men need to chase."
: In my case, I must call bullshit on that. I don't need or want to chase
: anyone. I want to meet women who want to date. Ultimately I want to
: fall maddly in love with someone who loves me back. Quite a
: straight-forward idea, huh?
: I love to play games... Chess, Space Invaders, Miniature Golf... I love
: 'em. Romance, love and sex are not games. Fun, yes... but not games.
: So, I must ask; Is there some kind of correspondance school or something
: that teaches women to say things they don't mean, and play games with
: men's heads?
[Warning: This is a long followup, skip if you don't want to read it.]
Hmmm i don't know about that. As a woman, i was in a strange sort of
dating thing with a man almost a year ago. A mutual net/rl friend of
mine had told me about him (she had met him a few times).
Me and him chatted for a bit over the net, exchanging the usual
standard biographical data and he offered lunch the following saturday.
I accepted and went. We had some interests in common but then again
many people on the net tend to like the same sort of things, ie computers,
science fiction, etc. This meeting was originally billed as just a net
meeting but later on during the meeting he referred to it as a
blind date. He wanted to take me to this club/bar type of place that
night but i couldn't go cause i had a previous engagement to talk with
a friend of mine. On the way out of the door at 10pm (i stayed 10 hrs)
he told me that if i ever wanted a date, i should call him and he will
drop any previously made engagements to go. He walked me to my car and
said he had a good time and we hugged goodbye. Now here was an interesting
and unique fellow that i would be interested in.
Anyway, we talked on the net during midweek and he invited me to
lunch to meet his brother on the following saturday. Then we chatted for
a bit and he asked if i was lonely and i said yes cause i had just moved
into town 6 months ago and didn't know too many people. He also asked if
i had a bf (no) and he said he didn't have a gf either. Then he offered
me friendship which i took to mean that he wanted "just friends" and was
no longer interested in a date. Fine, ok, no prob, he seems like a fun
guy so i agreed.
We met on saturday as planned and he was flirtatious, hmmm.
Fast forward to that night and when he offered a 2nd beer, i declined
cause i needed to drive home (takes an hour). He told me i could just
crash at his place so that i wouldn't need to worry about DUI so i
accepted and had a 2nd beer. I took his bed and he took the couch
in the living room. But moments later he drags his blanket into the
room and said he wanted to lie down. We talked for a bit and he
wondered out loud if this was a net meeting or a date. He said he
wondered if our 1st meeting was a date and that if he knew it was he
would have kissed me goodbye instead of just a hug. He asked if
i would have been offended if he kissed me and i said no. So he asked
me if this 2nd meeting was a date and i told him i would leave that up
to him to decide if he wanted it to be or whatnot (since he had offered
friendship before and i was a bit cautious as to what he wanted).
He decided that it was a date and motioned me to go to him. I went
to him and we ended up making out and thats it. We talked a bit more
and since neither of us had ever dated a net person, we giggled at
how we met. Then we went to sleep.
Now here's the strange part. The next morning we cuddled when we woke
up and then we talked. He asked me a strange question in a serious
and cautious tone of voice, he asked me why i made out with him the
night before, and i gave a straightforward, no-nonsense, no-games, answer.
I said cause i like you and would like to see you again.
No i didn't give a cautious answer cause i thought he was interested in
me but was just confused about the way in which we met hence the previous
flip-flop date/friendship thing. Well he didn't like my answer, he
laughed and said he doesn't know me, that i had the wrong physique (i was
tall and not petite like he's used to) and that since he was job hunting
it was a bad time for him. Never did he say straight out - i am not
interested in you and don't want to date you so go away. I asked him his
question back and he said its cause he liked my personality on the net
(ummm, we had spent more waking time together in rl than on the net) and
cause he hadn't done it in a year. He wasn't sure about my personality
in rl when i asked about my rl personality. He again asked me why i made
out with him last night and again i gave my original answer. Again he
laughed at it and said he didn't know me. He said he didn't know what
i am like on a daily basis, my habits, quirks, everyday conduct and
behavior, etc. Hmmmm. Perhaps he hoped i would have changed my answer,
i don't know. I in turn asked him his question again and this time he
just said that its cause he hadn't done it in a year, omitting the part
about liking my net personality. He then asked me about my temperament,
and other such character/behavior questions. Well, since he knew that
i was interested in him, he decided to give it a shot at dating me.
Needless to say, we didn't see each other for very long after that
since i felt it wasn't mutual and became increasingly uncomfortable
and we ended it 3 dates later.
The whole point to my story is that i had failed miserably cause some
would say that i was too forward in my answer to his strange question
thereby scaring him off or denying him the chase. I really don't know
what an appropriate answer would be if i am to be asked that question
again by someone else. Some say dating is a game and i failed to
play the game. Some say men expect a game and when they encounter
someone who doesn't string them along, they are at a loss and react
the way that guy did. I don't know what went wrong there, sometimes
i think that i interpreted him wrong, that when he offered friendship,
it was his way of saying that anything said/done afterwards is meant to
be all fun and games and not to be taken as a real date situation. But
i am not savvy and am not good at code-words and euphemisms. We did
argue about this once long after we stopped seeing each other and he
said that it wasn't his intent to play with me cause thats how i had
later interpreted those events, especially when he doesn't want anyone
(even his bro) to know we had seen each other. In that case then
i had better learn to be a savvy, play-hard-to-get, coy, dater lest i
repeat my errors. Dating is so complicated i sometimes feel i need to
hire an army of advisors, handlers, code-breakers, and script-writers.
This may be one reason why women are game-players, to avoid the pitfalls
i tripped into.
BTW, any of you men know what would be an appropriate, safe answer i
should give in case i am asked that question again??
Thanks.
Leona
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.96122...@spot.intercomm.com>
SierraSunset <coun...@spot.intercomm.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Dec 1996, A Dude Who Programs wrote:
>
>> lhar...@servco.com (LH) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> 10. Correctly interpret her message. If she says "Let's just be friends"
>> >> she does not think there is any potential for romance, she does not care
>> >> about you. Forget her. LJBF is best translated as "get lost".
>>
>> >LJBF doesn't mean get lost, it means just be friends and no romance. That
>> >can be fun and fulfulling if both parties agree.
>>
>> No. I doubt it. Women CAN NOT DIRECTLY AND HONESTLY EXPRESS THEIR
>> DESIRES AND WISHES. LJBF is always best translated as "get lost you
>> loser! I wouldn't even associate with you if you're the last man on
>> earth". Best thing when you hear LJBF is to LEAVE and NEVER COME
>> BACK.
>>
> No, NO, *NO*> Men, stop perpetuating this bullshit. Let's be friends
> means let's be friends. to force an "all or nothing" situation is the
> height of juvenile jerkiness.
Bingo! To me, LJBF's means, "You're not coming near my
crotch or my breasts." Period. Doesn't mean we can't do as
much socializing as you want.
Unfortunately, for some men, I'm no more than a crotch and
breasts. So yeah, in those instances, LJBF means LEAVE and
NEVER COME BACK!
-Leona-
"The times you were born in may not have been the best,
But you can make the times to come better than the rest.
And I know you will be honest, if you can't always be kind,
Oh, yes, sweet darlin', so glad you are a child of mine."
-C.King
Etherman
Leona <lcfr...@ingr.com> wrote in article <5a8v1u$r...@news.ingr.com>...
> Bingo! To me, LJBF's means, "You're not coming near my
> crotch or my breasts." Period. Doesn't mean we can't do as
> much socializing as you want.
>
> Unfortunately, for some men, I'm no more than a crotch and
> breasts. So yeah, in those instances, LJBF means LEAVE and
> NEVER COME BACK!
>
> -Leona-
What do you call all that extra skin around the vagina?
A woman.
--
Etherman
Etherman
SierraSunset <coun...@spot.intercomm.com> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.91.96122...@spot.intercomm.com>...
> No, NO, *NO*> Men, stop perpetuating this bullshit. Let's be friends
> means let's be friends. to force an "all or nothing" situation is the
> height of juvenile jerkiness.
Having been on the receiving end of LJBF numerous times I cannot disagree
with you more. As soon as you ask her out the situation becomes all or
nothing.
*She* invariably stops being your friend. At least that's what's happened
to
me.
--
Etherman
Etherman
SierraSunset <coun...@spot.intercomm.com> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.91.96122...@spot.intercomm.com>...
> On Sun, 29 Dec 1996, Zardoz wrote:
> > This discussion seems to assume that you can't have sex with a
> > "friend."
A few years ago I took a course called Psychology and Women. Most of the
course was feminist propaganda (in fact most of the women in the class
were disappointed because they wanted to learn psychology not feminist
politics) but there were a few interesting tidbits. A poll was taken of the
students. We were asked how well we'd have to know a person before having
sex with them. A significant minority of men required friendship. Only a
tiny fraction of women would have sex with a friend. The majority of men
would have sex within a week of dating. However, women by and large,
required that they be going steady before engaging in sexual intercourse.
This poll mirrored the results of other studies. Any guy who can find a
friend
who will have sex with him should consider himself lucky.
> > The LJBF demand inisits that "friendship" is OK but sex with
> > a "friend" is out. I don't buy that assumption. I have seen nothing in
> > my years of experience that makes sex with a friend anything less than
> > good. The LJBF demand is tantamount to telling someone that they are
> > less than acceptable as a man. I agree with the original rule. As long
> > as the woman says flat out that sex is out, the relationship has a
> > serious problem. She does not accept the man as a valid male being. Its
> > time for him to spend his time with someone who respects him as a man
as
> > well as a friend.
> >
> So sex alone makes a man "valid".?
>
> How sad for you, that your grasp of value is so limited.
>
> Jeanne
At least in the context of male-female relationships sex is a necessary
requirement
to "validity." That doesn't mean there are no other requirements.
--
Etherman
the wharf rat
In article <32C755...@ix.netcom.com>,
Zardoz <bkza...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>as the woman says flat out that sex is out, the relationship has a
>serious problem. She does not accept the man as a valid male being. Its
>time for him to spend his time with someone who respects him as a man as
>well as a friend.
Why do you have such trouble with the idea that she likes
you but just doesn't want to sleep with you?
K. Serrano
Giles (gi...@sprynet.com) wrote:
[snip]
: I could go on, but I digress... Dating is geared towards what women want
: and god forbid you aren't working when you ask a woman out!
: A non-working man = total loser to 99% of the women out there.
You should read my previous followup in this thread. That guy i dated
was unemployed at the time and job hunting. He was the one who made
his unemployment an issue time and time again. After i expressed my
interest in him (which came after what seemed like his interest in me)
unemployment suddenly became one of his excuses to LJBF me. He said it
was a bad time for him, that he wouldn't be able to take me places,
he wondered how i felt to be seeing a poor man, etc etc etc. I told
him time and again that it did not matter, but it mattered to him.
And i know it was an excuse to LJBF me cause a few months later he met
a girl he was all gung-ho about and wanted to ask out etc. He was
still unemployed!
I guess i must be in the 1% minority who thinks that a non-working man
is not a total loser.
Dr. Doug
In <Pine.SOL.3.91.96122...@spot.intercomm.com>
>> someone wrote:
>> > > LJBF means get lost as far as a boyfriend/girlfriend
relationship
>> > > goes and if the guy feels he does want to date her without that
>> > > being a possibility, why should he have to suffer? So the womans
>> > > feelings won't be hurt? What about his feelings?
>> >
why is
>> > he going to suffer? He is responsible for his feelings, not her.
If it
>> > hurts him to continue seeing her then he needs to say "adios"!
But in
>> > saying that...
the
>> > relationship and its benefits.
>>
>>
with
>> a "friend" is out. I don't buy that assumption. I have seen nothing
in
>> my years of experience that makes sex with a friend anything less
than
>> good. The LJBF demand is tantamount to telling someone that they
are
>> less than acceptable as a man. I agree with the original rule. As
long
>> serious problem. She does not accept the man as a valid male being.
Its
>> time for him to spend his time with someone who respects him as a
man as
>> well as a friend.
>>
>
>How sad for you, that your grasp of value is so limited.
>
>Jeanne
>
For all the sympathy you're handing out here. Put you feet in a man's
shoes once, and you'll have a clue what he's talking about. Many men
go through most of their lives feeling like eunuchs. They may feel
valued as human beings, in their work, in their friendships. But in
relation to women, they may feel completely undervalued. These are the
sensitive shy guys who aren't good at bashing their way through female
obstacles. How about a little understanding here?
I have plenty of sympathy for women who put up obstacles. Fear is a
terrible thing. And training starts very young. And I wish I could
decree that from now on, all high school girls must study assertiveness
training and martial arts as a requirement for graduating from high
school. (As a start.)
Oh well.
Dr. Doug
Dr. Doug
In <5a5ihc$5...@news.snni.com> mi...@server.snni.com (ming of mongo)
writes:
>Someone mentioned that, "men need to chase."
>
>In my case, I must call bullshit on that. I don't need or want to
chase
>anyone. I want to meet women who want to date. Ultimately I want to
>fall maddly in love with someone who loves me back. Quite a
>straight-forward idea, huh?
>
>I love to play games... Chess, Space Invaders, Miniature Golf... I
love'em.
>Romance, love and sex are not games. Fun, yes... but not games.
>
>So, I must ask; Is there some kind of correspondance school or
something
>that teaches women to say things they don't mean, and play games with
>men's heads?
>
you
>win, I don't get the date... and you don't either. This game sucks.
>
>I have a great new idea for a game. A man and a woman get together,
and
>actually try to make contact... BOTH try. If it works, they BOTH WIN!
>If not, they politely, and deliberately change partners and try again.
>
>
What you are feeling is a very natural reaction. My belief is that it
is not natural or right for men and women to compete with each other
for sexual partners. This is why it feels so bad for most of us.
Human sperm is VERY competitive. Only 1% actually is equipped to reach
the egg and impregnate it. The other 99% is there for the sole
purposes of 1. blocking other mens' sperm, or 2. killing other mens'
sperm, according to British evolutionary biologists R. Robin Baker and
Mark A. Bellis. In fact, the longer a man goes without ejaculation
(away from his mate), the higher the percentage of "killers" there are
in the sperm. Suggesting that the killers go after the sperm who have
had intercourse with his mate.
The sperm do the competing for us. We shouldn't have to in our
behavior. But when a woman sets up obstacles and more obstacles, only
the most persistent man will reach the goal.
Gorillas, on the other hand, have sperm that is almost all
impregnators, very little killers and blockers. That is because the
gorilla male is huge and competes physically against other males. He
also maintains a monopoly over the females in his area.
Bird sperm is not competitive, has no blockers or killers, because bird
sperm must be very light and "aerodynamic." (They also have very
little blood and hollow bones.) Therefore, the males are competitive,
and monogamous. (Monogamy is very rare in the animal world, and never
involves "work", counseling, domestic violence, or divorce.)
So the next time she sets up roadblocks and things FEEL bad, guys,
that's because it just ain't natural.
Dr. Doug
P.S. The answer, in my humble opinion, is for women and girls to learn
assertiveness training and martial arts very early in life.
Dr. Doug
In <5a73av$k...@news.corpcomm.net> ggr...@internetland.net (A Dude Who
Programs) writes:
>
>lhar...@servco.com (LH) wrote:
>
>
>>> 10. Correctly interpret her message. If she says "Let's just be
friends"
>>> she does not think there is any potential for romance, she does
not care
>>> about you. Forget her. LJBF is best translated as "get lost".
>
>>LJBF doesn't mean get lost, it means just be friends and no romance.
That
>>can be fun and fulfulling if both parties agree.
>
>No. I doubt it. Women CAN NOT DIRECTLY AND HONESTLY EXPRESS THEIR
>DESIRES AND WISHES. LJBF is always best translated as "get lost you
>loser! I wouldn't even associate with you if you're the last man on
>earth". Best thing when you hear LJBF is to LEAVE and NEVER COME
>BACK.
>
>Web Page: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/3537
>Writer of Excellent Training Manual known as the TP Tutorial.
>You may find this material on the web page eventually.
>Other interesting things will eventually exist as well.
>
I can sympathize with your frustration. Honest men who hate playing
the game don't generally get very far with most women in our culture.
All I can say is practice being honest with you emotions. When you're
attracted to a woman, just blurt it out. Expect rejection 9 out of 10
times. Ah, but that 10th time will be the woman you won't ever have to
play games with again. They are rare, but their ranks are growing.
Women generally shape their behavior to what men want, and men
generally shape their behavior to what women want. So go for what you
want.
Dr. Doug
A Dude Who Programs
"Giles" <gi...@sprynet.com> wrote:
> Men have to do the asking, men usually
>end up having to decide where to go especially on a first date and
>if men want to break up because it isn't working out we are the bad guys.
Entirely agreed. Dating is a thing geared entirely towards the
woman's wishes. when the woman wishes something it's OK, but when the
man wishes something he's such a *BAD GUY*. I know I've seen it in
the relationships I've ended.
>I do know for a fact that women that *I* have said LJBF to have seen that as an
>opportunity to maybe date in the future when it will never happen.
Very true in what I've seen. I think I got an ex coming back with
that idea. Gonna have to snap her back down very quickly I'm afraid.
My idea is that LBJF from a woman means that it's not a good idea to
be friends with her. IMO, the friendship would already be compromised
by asking for the date.
A Dude Who Programs
viva...@ix.netcom.com(Dr. Doug) wrote:
>I can sympathize with your frustration. Honest men who hate playing
>the game don't generally get very far with most women in our culture.
Truth there.
>All I can say is practice being honest with you emotions. When you're
>attracted to a woman, just blurt it out.
If I'm honestly attracted to the woman, she'll find out soon enough.
>times. Ah, but that 10th time will be the woman you won't ever have to
>play games with again. They are rare, but their ranks are growing.
Not around here unfortunately. Guess I'll have to wait until I'm
older. Oddly enough, women on IRC who are greater than 35 yrs old
keep falling in love with me for some reason (not even of my intent).
(I'm 22). That's why I base my observations on maybe finding someone
my age when I get closer to 30. Just wish I could even find a woman
I'm attracted to. Can't even seem to do that around here. There's
always some reason.
LH
snip:
> > > But if he dates her knowing that she is not interested in romance, why is
> > > he going to suffer? He is responsible for his feelings, not her. If it
> > > hurts him to continue seeing her then he needs to say "adios"! But in
> > > saying that...
> > > I ended up with a very good friend that way that we both enjoyed the
> > > relationship and its benefits.
> >
> >
> > This discussion seems to assume that you can't have sex with a
> > "friend." The LJBF demand inisits that "friendship" is OK but sex with
> > a "friend" is out. I don't buy that assumption. I have seen nothing in
> > my years of experience that makes sex with a friend anything less than
> > good. The LJBF demand is tantamount to telling someone that they are
> > less than acceptable as a man. I agree with the original rule. As long
> > as the woman says flat out that sex is out, the relationship has a
> > serious problem. She does not accept the man as a valid male being. Its
> > time for him to spend his time with someone who respects him as a man as
> > well as a friend.
I think there are different kinds of male friends. Once in a while you may
have a sexual relationship with a friend but most friends you don't. It
doesn't mean I devalue him as a man, just that I don't feel the emotional
attachment that "I" need to have a sexual relationship.
I am not saying that you can't ever have sex with a friend, that can be
nice (but confusing as h*ll) but why can't you have friends with whom you
don't have sex.
I don't understand equating sex with masculine validity. Surely there is
more to being a good man and a good friend than that?
Lara
V. Cicero
This is most probable. Most women do consider money to be one of the
prime attractions that a man has to offer. How else could a guy
like Rod Stewart, for example, get a date. Not looks. Money and
fame can make up for a lot of things.
Dr. Doug
In my humble opinion,
You will attract the kind of man you ask for. Bravo to you for being
somewhat bold and honest. If I had been him, I would have preferred to
have been told right from the beginning that you were attracted to me
(or not). But thats the kind of guy I am. I like honesty and
sensitivity.
There are men who have been so indoctrinated into the phoney chase game
(phoney because women need imtimacy too, and human relationships should
not be treated like some computer game with points and scoring), that
they cannot handle honesty and honest emotions. Do you want a
relationship with somebody like this? Will he not always be
manipulating you and treating you like an idiot? How relationships
start is usually how they continue, and it's very hard to change them
later.
It's better to be disliked for being yourself, than to be "liked" for
pretending to be someone else. I would suggest you practice being
upfront with your emotions (I'm attracted to you, or, I'm not attracted
to you), and those men who love honesty will beat a path to your door.
Dr. Doug
A Dude Who Programs
lcfr...@ingr.com (Leona) wrote:
>> No, NO, *NO*> Men, stop perpetuating this bullshit. Let's be friends
>> means let's be friends. to force an "all or nothing" situation is the
>> height of juvenile jerkiness.
>Bingo! To me, LJBF's means, "You're not coming near my
>crotch or my breasts." Period. Doesn't mean we can't do as
>much socializing as you want.
To say this is to believe that interpersonal relationships are static
and do not change depending on what is said or done. Asking for a
date, then hearing LJBF changes things drastically. It says that the
woman does not respect the man's masculinity. Even if it followed out
as what you said, the relationship would be irrecovably changed, and
the man would never be entirely satisfied with it, and cause him
enough pain that the friendship would not be worth it. Hence the best
thing in the case of LJBF for a man is to leave and never come back.
Glenn Grotzinger
Web Page: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/3537
Writer of the Excellent Training Manual known as the TP Tutorial.
To email, if you hit the reply button, delete the {remove_this}
out of the replied message. Just some protection from SPAM. :(
alex
In <5a9kv8$p...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
viva...@ix.netcom.com(Dr. Doug) writes:
>
>[...] These are the sensitive shy guys who aren't
>good at bashing their way through female obstacles.
Sounds like they'll stay out of jail, anyway.
(I'd be more careful about my wording. <g>)
>How about a little understanding here?
Maybe you can help me out... I've been in this
place only a week or so, and I've read nothing
but the withholding-woman-vs-eager-guy scenario
when general discussions are held. (There's been
some women who post about their situations,
though, that support the following point:)
Many women I've met are extremely aggressive,
and pursue men to the point of embarrasment.
>I have plenty of sympathy for women who put up
>obstacles. Fear is a terrible thing.
I don't see obstacles, as much as women wanting
to know and be known. In a relaxed manner.
Eagerness is just not a big turn-on for people
who are confident enough to take their time.
>And training starts very young.
Yup. Question conditioning.
>And I wish I could decree that from now on, all
>high school girls must study assertiveness
>training and martial arts as a requirement for
>graduating from high school. (As a start.)
Yyyes! What district are you running in?
(You'll win.)
BTW--They'd be better off with COED courses.
A
K. Serrano
Dr. Doug (viva...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In my humble opinion,
: You will attract the kind of man you ask for. Bravo to you for being
: somewhat bold and honest. If I had been him, I would have preferred to
: have been told right from the beginning that you were attracted to me
: (or not). But thats the kind of guy I am. I like honesty and
: sensitivity.
Thank you. I didn't tell him right from the beginning (end of 1st
date/meeting) that i was attracted to him cause i was being cautious and
i am also the shy type. But when he asked me why i made out with him
during the 2nd date, i did not hesitate to say that i liked him and wanted
to see him again. Judging by his reaction, he didn't like me being
attracted to him. That was on the 2nd date, a friend of mine told me
i was jumping the gun with my answer and scared him off. Would it scare
you or any other man off to be told that on a 2nd date/meeting??
Up til then, it was truly wonderful in rl and to this day i am still
attracted to him, even though now he is engaged to another woman.
I had visited him a couple of times in rl after we broke up and it still
made me all giddy and nervous to be in his presence that i needed to
get drunk to be able to feel comfortable. Its like meeting a celebrity
or an important person, extremely nerve-racking.
: There are men who have been so indoctrinated into the phoney chase game
: (phoney because women need imtimacy too, and human relationships should
: not be treated like some computer game with points and scoring), that
: they cannot handle honesty and honest emotions. Do you want a
: relationship with somebody like this? Will he not always be
: manipulating you and treating you like an idiot? How relationships
: start is usually how they continue, and it's very hard to change them
: later.
No i wouldn't and i can understand what you said about how they start
is how they continue. He told me that morning that when he wants to
break up with a woman, he doesn't have the heart to tell them outright
so he drops subtle hints til they figure it out and leave him. Thats
what made our subsequent attempt at a relationship so uncomfortable.
I was always analyzing his every word and action, reading between the
lines of his email messages, to determine whether or not he is telling
me to go away. It just couldn't go on.
: It's better to be disliked for being yourself, than to be "liked" for
: pretending to be someone else. I would suggest you practice being
: upfront with your emotions (I'm attracted to you, or, I'm not attracted
: to you), and those men who love honesty will beat a path to your door.
: Dr. Doug
Thanks. I like being upfront, so much simpler than trying to muddle thru
the "game". Besides, i am not clever enough to be a good game-player.
I doubt he gamed with his fiancee back when they started dating because
of the argument we had and the fact that he knows he hurted me with the
things he said. I guess the good thing that came out of our situation
was that no one after me got hurt by the game.
THRAK
: The way I see the game, if I win, I get a date. That means that if you
Heh! This reminds me of a piece I read in "SeinLanguage" by Jerry
Seinfeld. It compares going on a first date with having a job interview.
'Am I the right man for the job?' 'Will I be comfortable working for
you?' that sort of thing. A bizarre comparison but he hits the nail
sqaure on the head!
I think there oughta be a better first date standard etiquette. In
general, I think people put too much into the first date. Not that first
impressions aren't important, but alleviating certain common standards
could take the pressure off that date and have two more relaxed, truer-to
self people talking to each other, instead of the "I like - What do you
like?" scenario.
Tell me what you think of these two situations: First date from the
personals and First date after a short, informal meeting.
First date from the personals -
a) start with a phone call, get a feel for their voice, their
intelligence, how well they connect to your ideas and sense of humor and
most importantly, try and determine whether they sound interested in YOU
after talking to YOU - if she sounds interested, proceed to step B
b) still on the phone, make an informal agreement to be completely honest
upon first meeting each other, (appearance is important to everyone no
matter how much we detest the thought) and this is very important - make
it a very short date!! Meet for a coffee or an ice cream. That way if
things don't go well, it's only a half hour of discomfort. If it does go
well, proceed to step C
c) have another coffee, walk it off with her. And if
THAT goes well...
d) agree to meet for dinner or some other occasion that requires a bit
more time.
First date after a short, informal meeting:
a) invite her out for the short cup of coffee (reason explained later)
b) proceed the same way as above
This isn't to say that the games will stop. Personally, I think flirting
gestures are more of a stalling tactic than an advancing tactic. The
flirter wants to read the person's reactions before deciding to flirt some
more and eventually make another move. However, games are harder to play
on short, intimate occassions like a cup of coffee - you're liable to get
a more accurate personality reading of the other person.
Anybody else have handy first date tips?
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miker
LH wrote:
>
but why can't you have friends with whom you
> don't have sex.
>
> Lara
This is really simple: Other women won't tolerate it!
If you are trying to
establish a relationship with a woman, she won't trust you with other
women.
She might say it's ok, but it won't be long before you hear,
"Just Friends...right...Where'd you go?...What'd you do?..I called you
last night. Where were you?...You're whistling a lot today..."
Giles
SierraSunset <coun...@spot.intercomm.com> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.91.96122...@spot.intercomm.com>...
> > DESIRES AND WISHES. LJBF is always best translated as "get lost you
> > loser! I wouldn't even associate with you if you're the last man on
> > earth". Best thing when you hear LJBF is to LEAVE and NEVER COME
> > BACK.
> >
> means let's be friends. to force an "all or nothing" situation is the
> height of juvenile jerkiness.
See you scold men for being wrong (even tho they aren't)
No one is forcing anyone here, that is the whole point.
LJBF means the woman does not want a romantic
relationship therefore if that is what the man wants he should
just leave and look elsewhere. Now you show me how that
involves any kind of force? It is either All or Nothing
either you have a romantic relationship with a woman or
you do not.
-Giles
Giles
Dr. Doug <viva...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5a9kv8$p...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>...
> Thanks Jeanne,
>
> For all the sympathy you're handing out here. Put you feet in a man's
> shoes once, and you'll have a clue what he's talking about. Many men
> go through most of their lives feeling like eunuchs. They may feel
> valued as human beings, in their work, in their friendships. But in
> relation to women, they may feel completely undervalued. These are the
> sensitive shy guys who aren't good at bashing their way through female
> obstacles. How about a little understanding here?
To be honest I have never met a woman who was willing to put
herself in a man's shoes. They listen to what they want to
hear and disregard everything else. They have no understanding
about men and how we feel. Perhaps there are some women out
there who do but I have yet to meet them. Women want their
feelings to be a major concern, they want to feel justified,
they want a LOT! But they are not willing to reciprocate any
of that to Men.
-Giles
Giles
> The sperm do the competing for us. We shouldn't have to in our
> behavior. But when a woman sets up obstacles and more obstacles, only
> the most persistent man will reach the goal.
Why bother to even try? If she is going to make it that much of
a challenge she sure can't be worth it. It's nothing more than
Head games. Men are better off without women like that!
We as men allow women to play these games, if we could
just sit back like they do and not give a s#it and make them jump
through hoops perhaps then they would learn. I can't recall
how many women have used the phrase "teach my husband"
"he never learns" etc... Women are trying to train us like seals
or dogs to do what they want us to do. The problem is some
men fall for it.
> Dr. Doug
>
> P.S. The answer, in my humble opinion, is for women and girls to learn
> assertiveness training and martial arts very early in life.
Why? Aren't they bad enough as it is?
-Giles
Giles
THRAK <j...@speakeasy.org> wrote in article
<5aab28$k...@eve.speakeasy.org>...
> Anybody else have handy first date tips?
None you'll like but assume if they are advertising in the personals
section that they are:
A) Lying about their age, height, weight, etc...
Take the personal sections with a very big grain of salt.
B) Desperate, many women especially older women
are desperate and will play the most unnerving mind
games this side of Svengali!
If you do go out on a date make it in a very public
place, this should make both of you feel more at ease.
Plus if you find out that she was lying on the phone.
Let's say she claims she's slightly overweight for
an example and men with harpoons are chasing her
give it up. You don't need a liar. Basically some women
feel it's ok to lie about the obvious especially on the phone.
If you find that she is lying to you right off the bat.
Tell her you don't date liars and leave immediately.
Because if she is lying to you now she will contnue to
lie to you later and you will never develop the trust you
need for a stable relationship.
-Giles
Frederick W. Chapman
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.96122...@spot.intercomm.com>,
SierraSunset <coun...@spot.intercomm.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Dec 1996, A Dude Who Programs wrote:
>
>> lhar...@servco.com (LH) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> she does not think there is any potential for romance, she does not care
>> >> about you. Forget her. LJBF is best translated as "get lost".
>>
>> >LJBF doesn't mean get lost, it means just be friends and no romance. That
>> >can be fun and fulfulling if both parties agree.
>>
>> DESIRES AND WISHES. LJBF is always best translated as "get lost you
>> loser! I wouldn't even associate with you if you're the last man on
>> earth". Best thing when you hear LJBF is to LEAVE and NEVER COME
>> BACK.
>>
>No, NO, *NO*> Men, stop perpetuating this bullshit. Let's be friends
>means let's be friends. to force an "all or nothing" situation is the
>height of juvenile jerkiness.
[begin tag-team article response]
I agree with Lara! Many of my closest and most valued friendships are
with women in whom I originally had a romantic interest. If romance
isn't workable for some reason, that does NOT, in my experience, mean
that a close and caring friendship is impossible. I think that what
the LJBF proposition often does is to expose that many men's agendas
are limited to romance/sex with women and that the MEN, not the women,
are just not interested in non-romantic, non-sexual friendship -- and
that's a terrible loss to both men and women.
[ *touch* -- back to you Lara! :-) ]
Fred
--
Frederick W. Chapman, University of Waterloo (fwch...@daisy.uwaterloo.ca)
- Department of Applied Mathematics MC 5162 (519) 888-4567, x6672
- Symbolic Computation Group/Maple Lab DC 2302F (519) 888-4567, x3205
Applied Mathematics, University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ont., N2L 3G1, CANADA
Frederick W. Chapman
In article <01bbf632$f71a1520$6fbeaec7@STEVEGB>,
Giles <gi...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>LH <lhar...@servco.com> wrote in article
><lhartley-291...@mls09.imt.net>...
>
>and god forbid you aren't working when you ask a woman out!
>A non-working man = total loser to 99% of the women out there.
I recently read some articles on "evolutionary psychology," which is a new
field that uses biological evidence to make inferences about reproductive
strategies that have been shaped throughout the ages by evolution. Since
women make a substantial committment both in bearing and raising a child,
they look for men who are willing to invest their resources to support the
raising of the child over the long haul -- and thus they look for men who
have resources to invest. This is not always a conscious criterion --
women may not always be aware that they evaluate a man's status, social
dominance, power, weath, potential, and ambition in selecting a mate.
Nevertheless, this criterion seems to be burned into the female psyche by
eons of evolution. It is important to realize, though, that these
inherited evolutionary tendencies are not uncontrollable impulses -- they
can be consciously overridden, for example by one's own personal value
system.
>> I ended up with a very good friend that way that we both enjoyed the
>> relationship and its benefits.
>
>Yes, but if the guy expects more he should turn around and leave.
Why? A more adaptive strategy would be for the man to be FLEXIBLE -- to
consider the possibility that while he may have wanted more, there may
still be benefits to having SOME kind of relationship (e.g., friendship)
instead of no relationship at all. I have found my close friendships with
women to be very emotionally rewarding and supportive; I'm sure glad I
didn't abandon them just because romance wasn't in the cards for us.
It sounds like what you are suggesting is that if the man is interested
ONLY in a sexual and/or romantic relationship, and that is not possible,
then he should turn around and leave. That seems reasonable enough. But I
still think he is cheating himself out of something marvelous and unique by
cutting himself off from friendships with women.