obvious question
M1065att Gi129wer
stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
some place in the Near East ...
Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
written by Greeks?
Would it be considered religious dogma or fiction?
Would the language be considered other than Phoenician?
Would other stories found later in the same Linear B script be
considered other the fantasy?
--
Timothy McVeigh should not have been executed
before Reno.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 810
CAVM
>Timothy McVeigh should not have been executed
>before Reno.
> -- The Iron Webmaster, 810
McVeigh should have been boiled in oil on camera. And any of his supporters
should be lined up against a wall and shot.
Agamemnon
"M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...
> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
> some place in the Near East ...
If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
> Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
> written by Greeks?
The Tora (Greek for "The Now" i.e. History) could not possibly have been
found on any clay tablets since this was work of historical fiction.
Manetho accurately dates the so-called Exodus to the regin of Seti 1199-1193
BC (confirmed by the bible, and linear regression of biblical generations),
but the events of this time are all recorded on Egyptian inscriptions which
make no mention of and Jews or Israelites but refer to an Exodus of Greek
Sea-Peoples. Since the Exodus is historically proven to have been of Greeks,
clearly the biblical account is a FRAUD.
>
> Would it be considered religious dogma or fiction?
>
If it were found it would make no mention of god at all but of Pharaoh. All
the names of the Pharaohs which were removed in 65 BC and replaced with
Kyrios which then became Adonai and then YHWH, would still be there.
All that one has to do is to read the LXX in the orginal Greek and you will
see that there is not mention of any god. All that is mentioned is the Lord
said this or the Lord did that. This way of referring to Pharaoh was exactly
the same way in which Herodotus referred to Darius as "Kydos Basileas" when
he became Pharoah. In Aramaic this title would have read "Adonai Elohim"
which is what the Hebrew translation of the bible make into YHWH Elohim.
> Would the language be considered other than Phoenician?
No.
>
> Would other stories found later in the same Linear B script be
> considered other the fantasy?
Unlike the bible almost all of the Greek Gods are found inscribed in Linear
B in a religious context. There is NOT ONE mention of Jehovah in any
Phenicains script except as a personal name. In fact virtually ALL of the
kings of Ioudia and Israil were called Jehovah, like for exampled Ahab who
on the Moabite stone is called Yahweh in the context of being the son of
Omri and in the inscription of Shalmanerser III is called Yahua son of
Khumri (Omri). How can Jehovah be a god when every king called himself by
that name. This would make that bible read "And Jehovah prayed to Jehovah
for deliverance" The king prayed to himself... really !
How many Greek kings called themselves Zeus. One and only one. Clearly Zeus
was a God but Jehovah is a mortal.
BernardZ
74giwersworld.org says...
> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
> some place in the Near East ...
Check this book out
What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it?
By William G. Dever
Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus
unfortunately it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on
broken pottery and carved in stone.
Sections of it have been found written
>
> Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
> written by Greeks?
The writing is not Greek but old Canaanite and cursive Hebrew script.
>
> Would it be considered religious dogma or fiction?
>
> Would the language be considered other than Phoenician?
>
> Would other stories found later in the same Linear B script be
> considered other the fantasy?
I have no idea what you are talking about here!
BernardZ
replace.wi...@hello.to says...
>
> "M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...
> > If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> > stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
> > some place in the Near East ...
>
> If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
> LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
I have already in my previous posts showed you that this claim is false.
Why do you continue this nonsense. Why don't you check the Judean bench
tomb written in cursive Hebrew script dated the 7/6 century
Yahweh (is) the God of the whole earth; the mountains of Judah belong to
him, to the God of Jerusalem.
Agamemnon
"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
news:MPG.16e2089f41d4251e98976d@news...
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force>, mat31t@
> 74giwersworld.org says...
> > If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> > stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay
tablets
> > some place in the Near East ...
>
> Check this book out
>
> What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it?
> By William G. Dever
>
> Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus
> unfortunately it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on
> broken pottery and carved in stone.
>
> Sections of it have been found written
>
> >
> > Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
> > written by Greeks?
>
> The writing is not Greek but old Canaanite and cursive Hebrew script.
There is NO such script as cursive Hebrew script.
The script of the MT is Jewish Square Script which is descended from Aramaic
and has less relation to the script of these inscriptions, Eastern
Phoenician, which are nothing more than the names of kings, than it does to
Greek.
Agamemnon
"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
> In article <a576nn$an3$1...@paris.btinternet.com>,
> replace.wi...@hello.to says...
> >
> > "M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
> > news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...
> > > If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> > > stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay
tablets
> > > some place in the Near East ...
> >
> > If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of
any
> > LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
>
> I have already in my previous posts showed you that this claim is false.
> Why do you continue this nonsense. Why don't you check the Judean bench
> tomb written in cursive Hebrew script dated the 7/6 century
How can you claim that an inscription dating to 700 BC is Hebrew when the
script most people know as "Hebrew" which is used in the MT, DID NOT EXIST
until Hellenistic times, c.160 BC.
The script of the MT is Jewish Square Script which is descended from Aramaic
and has less relation to the script of these and other inscriptions of the
period than it does to Greek.
>
> Yahweh (is) the God of the whole earth; the mountains of Judah belong to
> him, to the God of Jerusalem.
The inscription is either referring to king Ahaz, who in other inscriptions
is called Yahweh or has been wrongly dated.
"Ahaz (is) the king of the whole land; the mountains of Judah belong to him,
to the king of Jerusalem."
I would bet it is wrongly dated since there was NO Hebrew script until 160
BC.
The book of Jeremiah clearly assonates the LORD with the Pharaoh of Egypt
who is forced to give up his territories in Palestine to Nebuchadneser,
including Tyre. Since the Trains NEVER worshiped the so-called "Jewish"
deity it is obvious that it is PHARAOH who Jeremiah is referring to because
Tyre was a possession of Egypt at the time when Necho II was Pharaoh. This
was the time that the Phoenicians circumnavigate Africa to please Necho
according to Herodotus.
If the Jews were a circumcised people an worship only one god then how come
Herodotus in completely unaware of either them or their religion ? Why
doesn't Herodotus list them among the circumcised peoples or the troops of
Xerxes which included everyone under his rule. Why doesn't Herodotus mention
the uniqueness of monotheism like the Roman period writes do, because it was
so unusual. Why doesn't Herodotus mention their new temple which was under
construction at the time he was writing 440 BC. He travelled to Tyre at the
time and if this was a copy of the temple at Tyre, to Herakles like that of
Solomon then Herodotus would have mentioned it.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
> LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
>
> > Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
> > written by Greeks?
>
> The Tora (Greek for "The Now" i.e. History)
The hebrew word Torah (from the verb Moreh -- to teach) means instruction.
Bob Kolker
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
> >
> > The writing is not Greek but old Canaanite and cursive Hebrew script.
>
> There is NO such script as cursive Hebrew script.
The pre-exilic hebrew writing was more like cursive than the post exilic
babylonian script that was adapted from the Aramaic.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon
"Bob Kolker" <bobk...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C779AD4...@attbi.com...
Poppycock. Pure unadulterated poppycock.
How did the "M" of Moreh become a "T".
More like "Moreh" is from the Greek "Mpore", "to enable to do".
> Bob Kolker
>
>
>
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> How did the "M" of Moreh become a "T".
Mutation to the future form of the verb, you puss filled ingoramous. You know
not a paritcle, - ayn pratim - of Hebrew and you are a scum filled anti-semite
to boot.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon
So how many Palestinian civilians did you shoot dead today, you Zionist
NAZI.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> So how many Palestinian civilians did you shoot dead today, you Zionist
> NAZI.
Not a single one. Not because I lack the will, but because I lack the
opportunity.
Bob Kolker
Ivan Hodes
> "M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...
> If it were found it would make no mention of god at all but of Pharaoh. All
> the names of the Pharaohs which were removed in 65 BC and replaced with
> Kyrios which then became Adonai and then YHWH, would still be there.
>
> All that one has to do is to read the LXX in the orginal Greek and you will
> see that there is not mention of any god. All that is mentioned is the Lord
> said this or the Lord did that. This way of referring to Pharaoh was exactly
> the same way in which Herodotus referred to Darius as "Kydos Basileas" when
> he became Pharoah. In Aramaic this title would have read "Adonai Elohim"
> which is what the Hebrew translation of the bible make into YHWH Elohim.
Exodus 7:13-7:16
"And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as
Pharoah ha dsiad. And Pharaoh said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is
hardened, he refuseth to let the peopel go. Get the unto Pharaoh in
the morning; lo, he goeth out unto the water; and thou sahlt stand by
the river's brink against he come; and th erod which was turned into a
serpent shalt thou take in thine hand. and thou shalt say unto him,
Pharoah of hte Hebrews hat sent me unto thee..."
Riiight...
Ivan Hodes
M1094att Gi120wer
>>From: M1065att Gi129wer mat31
You are not disagreeing with the order of execution.
--
It must be terrible to be bound by the past
or in hopes of the future.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 169
M4576att Gi713wer
>"M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
>news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...
>> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible stuff
>> and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets some
>> place in the Near East ...
>If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
>LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
I wasn't trying to go into the "real" translation with this one,
rather even letting the translation be Lord God, would anyone take it to
mean there were really a people distinct from the Phoenician-Greek-Persian
culture of the region?
I don't see it.
>> Would anyone have any reason to assume it was other than something
>> written by Greeks?
>The Tora (Greek for "The Now" i.e. History) could not possibly have been
>found on any clay tablets since this was work of historical fiction.
This is a hypothetical. Carved in stone, papyrus, goat skin,
whatever, only that it was discovered in modern times like the pryamid
texts.
>Manetho accurately dates the so-called Exodus to the regin of Seti
>1199-1193 BC (confirmed by the bible, and linear regression of biblical
>generations), but the events of this time are all recorded on Egyptian
>inscriptions which make no mention of and Jews or Israelites but refer to
>an Exodus of Greek Sea-Peoples. Since the Exodus is historically proven to
>have been of Greeks, clearly the biblical account is a FRAUD.
This was brought up by some folks on soc.history.what-if not being
able to separate their assumptions based upon what they have been taught
from religious principles from the known facts. There I corrected the idea
of a "semitic" people and language, addressed the unstated bible basis, and
then it reduced to name calling.
>> Would it be considered religious dogma or fiction?
>If it were found it would make no mention of god at all but of Pharaoh. All
>the names of the Pharaohs which were removed in 65 BC and replaced with
>Kyrios which then became Adonai and then YHWH, would still be there.
And in crossposting it here I thank you for reposting your material
from reading the orginal Greek version of the story.
>All that one has to do is to read the LXX in the orginal Greek and you will
>see that there is not mention of any god. All that is mentioned is the Lord
>said this or the Lord did that. This way of referring to Pharaoh was
>exactly the same way in which Herodotus referred to Darius as "Kydos
>Basileas" when he became Pharoah. In Aramaic this title would have read
>"Adonai Elohim" which is what the Hebrew translation of the bible make into
>YHWH Elohim.
>> Would the language be considered other than Phoenician?
>No.
>> Would other stories found later in the same Linear B script be considered
>> other the fantasy?
>Unlike the bible almost all of the Greek Gods are found inscribed in Linear
>B in a religious context. There is NOT ONE mention of Jehovah in any
>Phenicains script except as a personal name. In fact virtually ALL of the
>kings of Ioudia and Israil were called Jehovah, like for exampled Ahab who
>on the Moabite stone is called Yahweh in the context of being the son of
>Omri and in the inscription of Shalmanerser III is called Yahua son of
>Khumri (Omri). How can Jehovah be a god when every king called himself by
>that name. This would make that bible read "And Jehovah prayed to Jehovah
>for deliverance" The king prayed to himself... really !
>How many Greek kings called themselves Zeus. One and only one. Clearly Zeus
>was a God but Jehovah is a mortal.
--
If a woman is driving to an abortion clinic and is the victim
of auto accident and the fetus dies, does the guilty party
get to deduct the cost of the abortion?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 188
Agamemnon
"Ivan Hodes" <sarcas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20844aed.02022...@posting.google.com...
Egypt at the time was governed simultaneously by at least 2 opposing
Pharaohs at the time, one over Lower Egypt and one over Upper Egypt
(Ethiopia).
Based on on Manethos chronology Amenophis and Seti II reigned in Lower Egypt
against Merneptah in Upper Egypt.
Merneptah 1212-1202 (from Upper Egypt against...)
Amenophis (Amenemses) 1212-1206 (nominally over Lower Egypt)
Amenophis (Amenemses) 1206-1202 (exiled in Ethiopia)
Amenophis (Amenemses) 1202-1193 (from Ethiopia with...)
Seti II 1199-1193 (over all Egypt)
Merneptah Sipta 1193-1187 (Seti II murdered by his Syrian butler Bey, and
Merneptah Sipta usurps throne)
By the bibles chronology the Exodus occurs in exactly 1193 BC +/-3 years.
[The Bible states that Moses was born in the reign of Ramses II (who's city
the Israelites built) and then goes into exile and only returns to Egypt
when Ramses dies, so any date for the Exodus earlier than 1212 BC is
impossible.]
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
By Manethos chronology the Exodus occurs 13 years after Amenophis exile, or
in his 19th and final year, which occurs in 1193 BC assuming Ramess II dies
in 1212 BC.
An inscription in the name of Merneptah records him doing battle against the
Sea-Peoples in 1207 BC (his 5th year) which corroborates Manethos chronology
for the time of Amenophis exile.
Since the bible states the Exodus occurs in 1193 BC this must have been a
final expulsion of the remaining Sea Peoples.
Seti II is then murdered by this Syrian Butler Bey and Merneptah Sipta
usurps the throne, who is soon deposed by Seti II's widow Twosret 1187-1185
BC.
According Manetho Seti II was Amenemses son, but according to Encyclopaedia
Britannica, Amenemses opposed Seti II from Upper Egypt.
Thus either Amenemses or Merneptah Sipta are the "LORD GOD of Israel"
referred to in the bible. Osarsiph the high priest of Osiris was Arron
(though Manetho says he was Moses) and the Syrian butler Bey (Baal) the
murderer of Seti II was Moses (Tammuses = Baal) and also the so-called
biblical "Angel of Death" who the bible state killed Pharaohs son while he
was on the throne.
Merneptah Sipta may have in fact been Seti II's son and placed on the throne
by Bey while an infant.
Alternate Egyptian chronologies place the end of Seti II reign to 1198 BC so
the biblical reference to the "Angel of Death" killing Pharaohs son might
have been concocted by the forgers of the bible from the reference to the
murder of Siptah in Egyptian records.
SOURCES:
Manetho (reconstructed form various sections of Against Apion):
"Amenophis desired to become a spectator of the gods, as had Orus, one of
his predecessors in that kingdom, before him. He communicated his desire to
his namesake Amenophis, who was the son of Papis, and one that seemed to
partake of a divine nature, both as to wisdom and the knowledge of
futurities.
Amenophis the prophet told him that he might see the gods, if he would clear
the whole country of the lepers and of the other impure people. The king was
pleased with this injunction, and got together all that had any defect in
their bodies out of Egypt. He sent eighty thousand to those quarries which
are on the east side of the Nile, that they might work in them, and might be
separated from the rest of the Egyptians.
There were some of the learned priests that were polluted with the leprosy,
but Amenophis, the wise man and the prophet, was afraid that the gods would
be angry at him and at the king, if there should appear to have been
violence offered them. Out of his sagacity about futurities he foretold that
certain people would come to the assistance of these polluted wretches, and
would conquer Egypt, and keep it in their possession thirteen years.
However, he dared not tell the king of these things, but left a writing
behind him about all those matters, and then slew himself, which made the
king disconsolate.
After those that were sent to work in the quarries had continued in that
miserable state for a long while, the king was desired that he would set
apart the city Avaris, which was then left desolate of the Hyksos or foreign
kings, for their habitation and protection; which they had requested he
grant them. Now this city, according to the ancient theology, was Typho's
city. But when these men were gotten into it, in crowds, and found the place
fit for a revolt, they appointed themselves a ruler out of the priests of
Hellopolis, whose name was Osarsiph, and they took their oaths that they
would be obedient to him in all things.
He then, in the first place, made this law for them; that they should
neither worship the Egyptian gods, nor should abstain from any one of those
sacred animals which they have in the highest esteem, but kill and destroy
them all and that they should join themselves to nobody but to those that
were of this confederacy.
When he had made such laws as these, and many more such as were mainly
opposite to the customs of the Egyptians, he gave order that they should use
the multitude of the hands they had in building walls about their City, and
make themselves ready for a war with king Amenophis, while he did himself
take into his friendship the other priests, and those that were polluted
with them, and sent ambassadors to those foreign kings (Hyksos) who had been
driven out of the land by Tefilmosis to the city called Jerusalem; whereby
he informed them of his own affairs, and of the state of those others that
had been treated after such an ignominious manner, and desired that they
would come with one consent to his assistance in this war against Egypt. He
also promised that he would, in the first place, bring them back to their
ancient city and country Avaris, and provide a plentiful maintenance for
their multitude, and that he would protect them and fight for them as
occasion should require, and would easily reduce the country under their
dominion.
These foreign kings (Hyksos) were all very glad of this message, and came
away with alacrity all together, being in number two hundred thousand men;
and in a little time they came to Avaris.
Now Amenophis the king of Egypt, upon his being informed of their invasion,
was in great confusion, as calling to mind what Amenophis, the son of Papis,
had foretold him; and, in the first place, he assembled the multitude of the
Egyptians, and took counsel with their leaders, and sent for their holy
images to him, especially for those that were principally worshipped in
their temples, and gave a particular charge to the priests distinctly, that
they should hide the images of their gods with the utmost care.
He also sent his son Sethos, who was also named Ramesses, from his father
Rhampses, being but five years old, to a friend of his. He then passed on
with the rest of the Egyptians, being three hundred thousand of the most
warlike of them, against the enemy, who met them at Pelusium. Yet did he not
join battle with them; but thinking that would be to fight against the gods,
he returned back and came to Memphis, where he took Apis and the other holy
images which he had sent for to him, and presently marched into Ethiopia,
together with his whole army and multitude of Egyptians; for the king of
Ethiopia was under an obligation to him, on which account he received him,
and took care of all the multitude that was with him, while the country
supplied all that was necessary for the food of the men. He also allotted
cities and villages for this exile, that was to be from its beginning during
those fatally determined thirteen years. Moreover, he pitched a camp for his
Ethiopian army, as a guard to king Amenophis, upon the borders of Egypt. And
this was the state of things in Ethiopia.
But for the people of Jerusalem, they got the granaries of Egypt into their
possession, and perpetrated many of the most horrid actions there. When they
came down together with the polluted Egyptians, they treated the men in such
a barbarous manner, that those who saw how they subdued the aforementioned
country, and the horrid wickedness they were guilty of, thought it a most
dreadful thing; for they did not only set the cities and villages on fire,
but were not satisfied till they had been guilty of sacrilege, and destroyed
the images of the gods, and used them in roasting those sacred animals that
used to be worshipped, and forced the priests and prophets to be the
executioners and murderers of those animals, and then ejected them naked out
of the country.
The Egyptians themselves were the most guilty, because it was their priests
that contrived these things, and made the multitude take their oaths for
doing so.
It was reported that the priest, who ordained their polity and their laws,
was by birth of Hellopolls, and his name Osarsiph, from Osyris, who was the
god of Hellopolls; but that when he was gone over to these people, his name
was changed, and he was called Moses.
After this on the (sic.) thirteenth year, Amenophis returned back from
Ethiopia with a great army, as did his son Ahampses with another army also,
and both of them joined battle with the foreign kings (Hyksos) and the
polluted people, and beat them, and slew a great many of them, and pursued
them to the bounds of Syria. "
"Encyclopaedia Britannica (online version)
Sea People
Any of the groups of aggressive seafarers who invaded eastern Anatolia,
Syria, Palestine, Cyprus, and Egypt toward the end of the Bronze Age,
especially in the 13th century BC. They are held responsible for the
destruction of old powers such as the Hittite Empire. Because of the abrupt
break in ancient Near Eastern records as a result of the invasions, the
precise extent and origin of the upheavals remain uncertain. Principal but
one-sided evidence for the Sea Peoples is based on Egyptian texts and
illustrations; other important information comes from Hittite sources and
from archaeological data.
The Egyptians waged two wars against the Sea Peoples: the first, in the
fifth year of King Merneptah; the second, in the reign of Ramses III
Tentative identifications of the Sea Peoples listed in Egyptian documents
are as follows: Ekwesh, a group of Bronze Age Greeks (Achaeans; Ahhiyawa in
Hittite texts); Teresh, Tyrrhenians (Tyrsenoi), known to later Greeks as
sailors and pirates from Anatolia, ancestors of the Etruscans; Luka, a
coastal people of western Anatolia, also known from Hittite sources (their
name survives in classical Lycia on the southwest coast of Anatolia);
Sherden, probably Sardinians (the Sherden acted as mercenaries of the
Egyptians in the Battle of Kadesh, 1299 BC); Shekelesh, probably identical
with the Sicilian tribe called Siculi; Peleset, generally believed to refer
to the Philistines, who perhaps came from Crete and were the only major
tribe of the Sea Peoples to settle permanently in Palestine."
Further identifications of other Sea Peoples mentioned in the documents are
much more uncertain."
"Encyclopaedia Britannica (online version)
Siptah died 1198 BC
king of Egypt (reigned 1204-1198 BC).
Seti, the immediate successor of his father, Merneptah, was one of the last
rulers of the 19th dynasty, which was marked by short reigns, dynastic
intrigue, and usurpations. One of his most serious threats was a rebellion
by a usurper, Amenmeses, who claimed the kingship and acquired recognition
in Upper Egypt.
Upon his death, Seti was succeeded by Siptah.
>
> Ivan Hodes
M1594att Gi199wer
>How can you claim that an inscription dating to 700 BC is Hebrew when the
>script most people know as "Hebrew" which is used in the MT, DID NOT EXIST
>until Hellenistic times, c.160 BC.
The "how can you" part can be answered.
While growing to maturity people learn many things they were told
when younger, suitable for their maturity, simply are not true.
Between adolescence and no later than age 35 they either choose to
search for the grain of truth for the rest of their lives or they realize
they must reject it all as the proponderance of evidence is against the
childhood stories.
Most choose to believe there must be a grain of truth rather than
the obvious. Most people do not think quickly enough to have the time to dig
into details.
--
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 419
M1258att Gi127wer
>Agamemnon wrote:
An admission of murderous desire is hardly a way to avoid the
stereotype of a zionist.
--
An example of a totally false assumption.
If it is not publically debated it is not an issue.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 535
M1647att Gi214wer
>Agamemnon wrote:
As with so many words in "hebrew" the same meaning must be applied
to all other usages of the word and have the same meaning.
Unique among languages is Hebrew. Its words have wildly different
meanings from their usage in context and also have a consistant meaning if
only one of the conflicting definitions is used. It is also unique in that
the wildly different meanings are those which support a religious
interpretation.
Oy Veh! What a language!
--
There is nothing beyond the dreams of avarice.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 482
M1390att Gi159wer
>Agamemnon wrote:
Curiouser and curiouser.
YHWH which in Hebrew is written HWHY ... but is not written
backwards in Hebrew while the other words are backwards ... you just have to
know which words to read forwards instead of backwards to satisfy the
theology.
--
Rock throwing children are a threat to the security of Israel.
Such an unstable country.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 740
M1578att Gi197wer
>In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force>, mat31t@
>74giwersworld.org says...
>> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
>> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
>> some place in the Near East ...
>Check this book out
Appeal to authority? Get him to post here so we can discuss it with
him.
>What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it?
>By William G. Dever
>Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus unfortunately
>it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on broken pottery and
>carved in stone.
If the Torah were "original" it would have been written in
hieroglyphs or the fantasy of "perfect copies" of it would not exist.
--
Torah thumpers are a subset of Bible thumpers.
They have fewer of the same books.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 370
M1911att Gi255wer
>Agamemnon wrote:
Read Acts and never start a fight you can't finish.
Beyond that if pointing out the foundations of judaism is mythology
is antisemitism then anyone pointing out the foundations of christianity is
mythology is antichristian.
Both the pot and the kettle are black.
As to the subtext so many atheists are falsely claiming to be jews
that it makes you feel better.
You are an atheist. You are not a jew. There is no jewish blood.
Only religious dogma says you can be born a jew. Religious ritual cannot
make you a jew any more than birth.
Some day you have to grow up and accept you are what you are, an
atheist and not a jew even if they accept you because you are not anything
else as a religion. Their acceptance, even family acceptance, does not make
you a jew.
--
Why does Israel object when Palestinians fire
on their own land?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 793
M2569att Gi363wer
>Exodus 7:13-7:16
>"And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as
>Pharoah ha dsiad. And Pharaoh said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is
>hardened, he refuseth to let the peopel go. Get the unto Pharaoh in the
>morning; lo, he goeth out unto the water; and thou sahlt stand by the
>river's brink against he come; and th erod which was turned into a serpent
>shalt thou take in thine hand. and thou shalt say unto him, Pharoah of hte
>Hebrews hat sent me unto thee..."
As you may not have noticed there is a behind the scenes debate
going on for nearly a century as to using translations based upon archeology
without regard to prior translations. The debate is with regard to the
deviation from pre-scientific translations which have only increased over
the decades making the decision to go public even more difficult.
You cannot be forgiven having noticed is the "And he hardened
Pharaoh's heart." If you consider that a correct and valid translation then,
without any theological hoop jumping or inscrutable god invoking, you have
to see the problem Moses had was God asking him to do one thing and at the
same time making it hard for Moses to accomplish that task and then
punishing Pharaoh and all the Egpytians for doing what God make him do.
If you believe that is a correct translation when all the rest of
the story implies Pharaoh did it on his own then you have a serious problem
with "faith" over plain English.
From context that translation is false even you accept the context
of the story is true.
And then you use what no rational person can accept as a correct
translation to contradict a post on correct translations.
--
People who confuse anything from Hollywood with reality are
very low on the food chain.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 556
BernardZ
76giwersworld.org says...
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, BernardZ wrote:
>
> >In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force>, mat31t@
> >74giwersworld.org says...
>
> >> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> >> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay tablets
> >> some place in the Near East ...
>
> >Check this book out
>
> Appeal to authority? Get him to post here so we can discuss it with
> him.
Yeah! Sure one of the greatest archeologist in the world, is going to
come to this forum, to debate with a known Nazi kook.
>
> >What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it?
> >By William G. Dever
>
> >Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus unfortunately
> >it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on broken pottery and
> >carved in stone.
>
> If the Torah were "original" it would have been written in
> hieroglyphs or the fantasy of "perfect copies" of it would not exist.
Why would ancient Jews use hieroglyphics?
Anonymous
> LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
Huh, what about the 'Septaguinta' or translation of the Scripture or
Old Testament from Greek into Hebrew comissioned by the Library of
Alexandria in
Egypt? I think this was done before the wars of Judea with Antiochus
Epiphanes. I would have to look this up but I think this is in the
second century, or possibly the third, B.C. This was, also, ... a
translation.
> How many Greek kings called themselves Zeus. One and only one. Clearly Zeus
> was a God but Jehovah is a mortal.
I am not sure, but I think that the word 'Julius', in Julius Caesar,
derive from Juno, just as the word 'Hercules' derives from the words
'Glory of Hera'. Many Greek and Roman names derived from a lot of
sources, but many of them did derive from the Greek and Roman gods. I
am not sure, but I also think that the word 'Ramses' derives from the
word 'Ra', 'Seti' from 'Set', 'Nefretete' from 'Nephtys', 'Thutmose'
from 'Thoth' and so on. Many names regularly in use, even today,
derive from names in ancient mythologies.
BernardZ
replace.wi...@hello.to says...
>
> "BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
> news:MPG.16e20a0e87bfd1b098976e@news...
> > In article <a576nn$an3$1...@paris.btinternet.com>,
> > replace.wi...@hello.to says...
> > >
> > > "M1065att Gi129wer" <mat...@74giwersworld.org> wrote in message
> > > news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force...
> > > > If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> > > > stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay
> tablets
> > > > some place in the Near East ...
> > >
> > > If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of
> any
> > > LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
> >
> > I have already in my previous posts showed you that this claim is false.
> > Why do you continue this nonsense. Why don't you check the Judean bench
> > tomb written in cursive Hebrew script dated the 7/6 century
>
> How can you claim that an inscription dating to 700 BC is Hebrew when the
> script most people know as "Hebrew" which is used in the MT, DID NOT EXIST
> until Hellenistic times, c.160 BC.
Read what I said. It was cursive Hebrew script. It dates back at least
to 10 century.
>
> The script of the MT is Jewish Square Script which is descended from Aramaic
> and has less relation to the script of these and other inscriptions of the
> period than it does to Greek.
You are confusing the letters with the script! Yes the Jewish Square
Script comes from Aramaic but the meaning comes from the cursive Hebrew
script.
I have seen German written with English letters this does not mean that
German = English.
>
> >
> > Yahweh (is) the God of the whole earth; the mountains of Judah belong to
> > him, to the God of Jerusalem.
>
> The inscription is either referring to king Ahaz, who in other inscriptions
> is called Yahweh or has been wrongly dated.
>
> "Ahaz (is) the king of the whole land; the mountains of Judah belong to him,
> to the king of Jerusalem."
As a translator you suck!
The Hebrew word for King is not the same as God.
The meaning is quite clear. Several other have been found. By the way
the seal of several Israel kings have been found and Ahaz does not equal
God.
Nor is it the only such tomb stone found!
>
> I would bet it is wrongly dated since there was NO Hebrew script until 160
> BC.
You are wrong. The date is 6/7 century.
>
> The book of Jeremiah clearly assonates the LORD with the Pharaoh of Egypt
> who is forced to give up his territories in Palestine to Nebuchadneser,
> including Tyre. Since the Trains NEVER worshiped the so-called "Jewish"
> deity it is obvious that it is PHARAOH who Jeremiah is referring to because
> Tyre was a possession of Egypt at the time when Necho II was Pharaoh. This
> was the time that the Phoenicians circumnavigate Africa to please Necho
> according to Herodotus.
It does not make sense and reads like nonsense.
>
> If the Jews were a circumcised people an worship only one god then how come
> Herodotus in completely unaware of either them or their religion ? Why
> doesn't Herodotus list them among the circumcised peoples or the troops of
> Xerxes which included everyone under his rule. Why doesn't Herodotus mention
> the uniqueness of monotheism like the Roman period writes do, because it was
> so unusual. Why doesn't Herodotus mention their new temple which was under
> construction at the time he was writing 440 BC. He travelled to Tyre at the
> time and if this was a copy of the temple at Tyre, to Herakles like that of
> Solomon then Herodotus would have mentioned it.
Herodotus wrote at a time when Jews were not important in areas that he
talked about. Nor did he talk about many other people in the area like
Moabites.
Mate all this has been explained to you many times, if you refuse to
accept facts, you become a spammer.
M1670att Gi213wer
>> If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of any
>> LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
>Huh, what about the 'Septaguinta' or translation of the Scripture or Old
>Testament from Greek into Hebrew comissioned by the Library of Alexandria
>in Egypt? I think this was done before the wars of Judea with Antiochus
>Epiphanes. I would have to look this up but I think this is in the second
>century, or possibly the third, B.C. This was, also, ... a translation.
Who, other than Josephus the Fablist ever said that happened? There
are no prior references to it therefore the septagint is the first version
of it. That is the rule which applies in all matters to all but the
religiously inclined.
I know this is hard for you but try to separate your belief training
from postings here.
--
Oh my God! Everyone has killed Kenny!
-- The Iron Webmaster, 79
M2456att Gi335wer
>In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202240154590.27788-100000@force>, mat44t@
>76giwersworld.org says...
>> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, BernardZ wrote:
>> >In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force>, mat31t@
>> >74giwersworld.org says...
>> >> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
>> >> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay
>> >> tablets some place in the Near East ...
>> >Check this book out
>> Appeal to authority? Get him to post here so we can discuss it with
>> him.
>Yeah! Sure one of the greatest archeologist in the world, is going to come
>to this forum, to debate with a known Nazi kook.
Appeal to authority has been a designated piece of shit for over
2000 years. If he won't be here, YOU defend your position without him. In
this debate it stands or falls upon _YOU_ and only you if you advance the
position.
>> >What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it? By William
>> >G. Dever
>> >Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus
>> >unfortunately it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on
>> >broken pottery and carved in stone.
>> If the Torah were "original" it would have been written in
>> hieroglyphs or the fantasy of "perfect copies" of it would not exist.
>Why would ancient Jews use hieroglyphics?
After 400 years in Egypt (according to the story) and coming from
what is modern Iraq, it is dumber than dog shit to think they would write
anything else like assuming Blacks in America would speak Zulu.
--
The US fought Germany in WWII because Germany
declared war on the US.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 30
Agamemnon
"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
> > >
> > > Yahweh (is) the God of the whole earth; the mountains of Judah belong
to
> > > him, to the God of Jerusalem.
> >
> > The inscription is either referring to king Ahaz, who in other
inscriptions
> > is called Yahweh or has been wrongly dated.
> >
> > "Ahaz (is) the king of the whole land; the mountains of Judah belong to
him,
> > to the king of Jerusalem."
>
> As a translator you suck!
>
> The Hebrew word for King is not the same as God.
BULLSHIT.
The Hebrew word form king Melech comes from the Phoenician Melquart which
means GOD. Thus the words for King and God are interchangable. Elohim means
both King and God. This is blatantly obvious since all the kings of Assyria,
Babylon, Syria-Palestine and Egypt styled themselves as Living Gods.
Since you fail to understand that basic structure of Hebrew it is point lese
addressing any of you other statements since they are all baloney.
Matt has already pointed out correctly that almost every word in the Hebrew
bible has at least two alternate meanings, the common meaning and the
meaning which had been MADE UP by the Rabbis to make the bible say whatever
they want it to say.
>
> The meaning is quite clear. Several other have been found. By the way
> the seal of several Israel kings have been found and Ahaz does not equal
> God.
Ahaz is given as Yahaz. His so-called son Hezekiah is given in inscriptions
as Heziyahu. Ahab is called both Yahua and Yahweh in inscriptions.
It is clear that YHWH and its variants was a standard declination denoting
masculine gender and equivalent to the Greek ending "on" and therefore NOT a
reference to any god but to a man. Nobody would translate Argyron as "Silver
of God" except a Jewish religious fanatic.
From the comparison of Hezekiah and Heziyahu it is aboudently obvious that
"yahu" is equivalent to "kiah" both of which are corruption of the Greek
"Ion" which means "native" or "land man" (Robert Graves) ie. gia yion.
Agamemnon
"M1390att Gi159wer" <mat...@76giwersworld.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202240232130.27788-100000@force...
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:
>
> >Agamemnon wrote:
>
> >> How did the "M" of Moreh become a "T".
>
> >Mutation to the future form of the verb, you puss filled ingoramous. You
> >know not a paritcle, - ayn pratim - of Hebrew and you are a scum filled
> >anti-semite to boot.
>
> Curiouser and curiouser.
>
> YHWH which in Hebrew is written HWHY ... but is not written
> backwards in Hebrew while the other words are backwards ... you just have
to
> know which words to read forwards instead of backwards to satisfy the
> theology.
Obvioulsy YHWH or HWHY is a later insertion but people who could not even
speak Hebrew but just copied the symbols down and wrote from right to left
like the Greeks, in the same way that the people who printed the first Latin
bibles could not understand a word of Latin.
Agamemnon
"Anonymous" <ax1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2636c3ae.02022...@posting.google.com...
> > If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of
any
> > LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
>
> Huh, what about the 'Septaguinta' or translation of the Scripture or
> Old Testament from Greek into Hebrew comissioned by the Library of
> Alexandria in
> Egypt? I think this was done before the wars of Judea with Antiochus
> Epiphanes. I would have to look this up but I think this is in the
> second century, or possibly the third, B.C. This was, also, ... a
> translation.
The Septuagint was placed in the Library of Alexandrie in 262 BC and was
commissioned by Antiochus Theos as a chronology of Syria-Palestine based on
the Egyptian Annals. It had NOTHING whatsoever with any Jews since these
people did not exist until the time of Judas Maccabee who invented the
entire religion by Plagiarising the Septuagint and concocting the story of
the Exodus by dissembling the text which originally referred to the
expulsion of the Greek Sea Peoples and combining it with Apollonius standard
chronology which was devised in 262 BC when he became the first Chief
Librarian which was later used by Diodorus. This is why the date of the
so-called Exodus is EXACTLY the same as the date of the Trojan War 1193 BC !
>
> > How many Greek kings called themselves Zeus. One and only one. Clearly
Zeus
> > was a God but Jehovah is a mortal.
>
> I am not sure, but I think that the word 'Julius', in Julius Caesar,
> derive from Juno, just as the word 'Hercules' derives from the words
Wrong. Iulius Caesar derives from the Greek word "Ilios" meaning "Sun" and
the Assyrian "Hussur" or "Assur" meaning "King" or "God". The use of these
titles was a standard practise for the Hittites and Teukarians from which
Julius Caesar claimed to be descended from.
> 'Glory of Hera'. Many Greek and Roman names derived from a lot of
Herakles original name was Palamon (Baal-Amon). The Mycenaean Greek
equivalent to Baal-Amon in 1250 BC was Wanakas and Herakles was a corruption
of Wanakas in the local dialect.
Similarly Paris the son of Priam was also called Alexander by the Greeks
since Paris was the same name as Belus or Baal and Alex a derivative of
Wanax was the equivalent in the Macedonian dialect. The last part of the
name Ander just means man.
> sources, but many of them did derive from the Greek and Roman gods. I
> am not sure, but I also think that the word 'Ramses' derives from the
> word 'Ra', 'Seti' from 'Set', 'Nefretete' from 'Nephtys', 'Thutmose'
> from 'Thoth' and so on. Many names regularly in use, even today,
> derive from names in ancient mythologies.
Ramses is a corruption of the same root as Djhtmoses, and Ahmoses which is
the name "Tammuz" or "Dumuzi". If Ramses I had come from the same part of
Egypt as the 18th dynasty then he would have been called Tutmoses V. If he
had come form Mesopotamia then he would have been called Tammuz. But in his
dialect Tammus was Ramses.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
Aggie, is this alternate history, WI or is it your usual anti-semitic drool.
Bob Kolker
Bob Kolker
BernardZ wrote:
>
> As a translator you suck!
>
> The Hebrew word for King is not the same as God.
king = mlk (melech)
god = el
lord = ba'al eg. lord of the flies is ba'la zevuv our belzibub.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon
>
> "Encyclopaedia Britannica (online version)
>
> Siptah died 1198 BC
The above should read Seti died 1198 BC
Agamemnon
Since when have I been anti-Semitic ?
I have stated the historical FACTS but as usual you bible fanatics refuse to
accept them because they contradict your bigoted preconceptions.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> Obvioulsy YHWH
yod hey vav hey is the future form of to be also in the vav consecutive which
uses the future form as a past perfective it is translated he is. Learn some
hebrew, asshole.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon
HOGWASH.
Balazarus, is exactly the same name as Baleazarus, Badezorus, Baltorus and
Belshazzer. All of these are Phoenician corruptions of the Assyrian title
"Baal Assur" which translates NOT as lord of flies but as LORD GOD !!!
The Hebrew word Melech derives from the Phoenician word Melquart which means
GOD as well as king.
And El not only means God but it also means Lord or King and is a genitive
ending equivalent to the Greek "on". Literally in Sumerian it means "Shining
One" and is of Indo-European origin being derived from the same root as
"Illios" the Greek for Sun and Hellas or Elada which literally means "Land
of Light". In Old Welsh is Ellyl and in Anglo-Saxon its Aelf both meaning
"Shining Being". In Germanic its Wolf, which is equivalent to Ulf which in
Babylonians is Vul which is the same as Baal.
Baal is the same word as Belus (Velus) which is the same as Melech which
derives from Melquart which itself is a corruption of the Greek and
Proto-Indo-European root Wanaka which means LORD and the NUMBER ONE.
> Bob Kolker
Agamemnon
So dipstick you are agreeing with me the YHWH does NOT mean god but is a
declination equivalent to the Greek name ending "on" also meaning "the one"
or "he is". Thus YHWH can only be translated as "the one who is king".
>
> Bob Kolker
>
>
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> Baal is the same word as Belus (Velus) which is the same as Melech which
> derives from Melquart which itself is a corruption of the Greek and
> Proto-Indo-European root Wanaka which means LORD and the NUMBER ONE.
Take your meds. You are hallucinating again.
Bob Kolker
CAVM
>>supporters should be lined up against a wall and shot.
>
I would not vote for Jenet Reno for governor or for attorney general because of
her liberal leanings but she committed no crime that I am aware of.
Alex Bensky
> Old Testament from Greek into Hebrew comissioned by the Library of
> Alexandria in
> Egypt? I think this was done before the wars of Judea with Antiochus
> Epiphanes. I would have to look this up but I think this is in the
> second century, or possibly the third, B.C. This was, also, ... a
> translation.
>
generally agreed to have been prepared about 200 B.C.E. There are
actually several versions.
> > How many Greek kings called themselves Zeus. One and only one. Clearly Zeus
> > was a God but Jehovah is a mortal.
>
> I am not sure, but I think that the word 'Julius', in Julius Caesar,
> derive from Juno, just as the word 'Hercules' derives from the words
> 'Glory of Hera'. Many Greek and Roman names derived from a lot of
> sources, but many of them did derive from the Greek and Roman gods. I
> am not sure, but I also think that the word 'Ramses' derives from the
> word 'Ra', 'Seti' from 'Set', 'Nefretete' from 'Nephtys', 'Thutmose'
> from 'Thoth' and so on. Many names regularly in use, even today,
> derive from names in ancient mythologies.
This is just folk etymology. In fact, "Jehovah" as a name for the
deity is only a few centuries old and is not Hebrew. Like other
semitic languages Hebrew originally was written without vowels. The
original name was written YHWH and we think it may have been
pronounced something like "Yahweh," although we aren't sure.
Vowels later were written in and are still used in Modern Hebrew
for poetry, prayers, children's writings, and such. Modern Israeli
Hebrew is written without vowels. The vowels consists of dots and line
above, below, or inside the letters. While there is reason to believe
that some sort of vowel marking in Hebrew is quite old--for example,
it seems that "aleph" ("A") at one time had some consonantal value;
today it is silent unless vowelled. It is generally agreed that our
modern system of vowel marking can be dated no farther back than the
eighth century C.E.
Another name for the deity is "Elohim." At some point in the not
too distant past some Christian scholars interposed the vowel markings
for "Elohim" onto "YHWH" and came up with "Yehovah," or "Jehovah."
There is no basis for this in Hebrew.
By the way, I know there are other forum posters whose knowledge
of Hebrew is much deeper than mine. On the other hand, I have sort of
a basic fluency in Modern Hebrew and a nodding acqaintance with
biblical Hebrew. The language is written right to left so of course in
a text you'd see "YHWH" written as "HWHY." On the other hand, despite
a previous post, I have never seen or heard of reading some words
right to left and some words left to right.
--Alex Bensky
Agamemnon
"Alex Bensky" <chief...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:26514c4b.02022...@posting.google.com...
> > Huh, what about the 'Septaguinta' or translation of the Scripture or
> > Old Testament from Greek into Hebrew comissioned by the Library of
> > Alexandria in
> > Egypt? I think this was done before the wars of Judea with Antiochus
> > Epiphanes. I would have to look this up but I think this is in the
> > second century, or possibly the third, B.C. This was, also, ... a
> > translation.
> >
> The Seputagint was a translation from Hebrew to Greek and is
> generally agreed to have been prepared about 200 B.C.E. There are
> actually several versions.
IMPOSSIBLE. Jewish Square Script did NOT exist until 160 BC so the
Septuagint CANNOT be a translation of the Hebrew version which was concocted
in 65 BC.
Both the Greek and Samaritan texts of the bible have been proven by
linguists to be substantial older than the Hebrew text.
The reason why there were no vowels marked in "Hebrew" is because it was
never standardised like Greek and could be pronounced in any way one wanted
to depending on which region one came form.
YHWH can also be pronounced Ayahiwaha which is the same as the Akkiyawua
listed among the Sea Peoples i.e. the Achaeans.
Now the question is what the hell are the Jews worshiping the Achaean Greeks
as their God ?
Its more obvious than ever that the people the bible refers to have NO
relation to today's Jews but were Greek colonists of Palestine which is why
Antiochus Theo's commissioned the Septuagint in the first place.
Agamemnon
> >
> > Another name for the deity is "Elohim." At some point in the not
> > too distant past some Christian scholars interposed the vowel markings
> > for "Elohim" onto "YHWH" and came up with "Yehovah," or "Jehovah."
> > There is no basis for this in Hebrew.
>
> The reason why there were no vowels marked in "Hebrew" is because it was
> never standardised like Greek and could be pronounced in any way one
wanted
> to depending on which region one came form.
>
> YHWH can also be pronounced Ayahiwaha which is the same as the Akkiyawua
> listed among the Sea Peoples i.e. the Achaeans.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=68172
"Sea People
any of the groups of aggressive seafarers who invaded eastern Anatolia,
Syria, Palestine, Cyprus, and Egypt toward the end of the Bronze Age,
especially in the 13th century BC. They are held responsible for the
destruction of old powers such as the Hittite Empire. Because of the abrupt
break in ancient Near Eastern records as a result of the invasions, the
precise extent and origin of the upheavals remain uncertain. Principal but
one-sided evidence for the Sea Peoples is based on Egyptian texts and
illustrations; other important information comes from Hittite sources and
from archaeological data.
The Egyptians waged two wars against the Sea Peoples: the first, in the
fifth year of King Merneptah (1236–23 BC); the second, in the reign of
Ramses III (c. 1198–66).
Tentative identifications of the Sea Peoples listed in Egyptian documents
are as follows: Ekwesh, a group of Bronze Age Greeks (Achaeans; Ahhiyawa in
Hittite texts); Teresh, Tyrrhenians (Tyrsenoi), known to later Greeks as
sailors and pirates from Anatolia, ancestors of the Etruscans; Luka, a
coastal people of western Anatolia, also known from Hittite sources (their
name survives in classical Lycia on the southwest coast of Anatolia);
Sherden, probably Sardinians (the Sherden acted as mercenaries of the
Egyptians in the Battle of Kadesh, 1299 BC); Shekelesh, probably identical
with the Sicilian tribe called Siculi; Peleset, generally believed to refer
to the Philistines, who perhaps came from Crete and were the only major
tribe of the Sea Peoples to settle permanently in Palestine.
Further identifications of other Sea Peoples mentioned in the documents are
much more uncertain. "
M1333att Gi145wer
>BernardZ wrote:
Yahweh Elohim, YHWH LHM, unreversed MHL melech
It is also necessary to keep in mind spellings used are often not
direct buy have passed through other languages and can be second and third
generation transliterations.
--
Kill a fetus for Klinton. It's the least you can do.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 479
M1405att Gi155wer
>Agamemnon wrote:
>Aggie, is this alternate history, WI or is it your usual anti-semitic
>drool.
The origin of the exchange derived from the absurd assertion that
hebrew was some unique language when the only cause for such a belief is
based upon a belief in a religion.
That occurred, as do so many discussions here, from spin off of a
WI.
It is interesting when apparent atheists are adamant in defending
one particular religion or other when they have rejected all religions.
--
Now I'm kind glad I was cast in hell
Because it's Christmas time in hell.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 427
M1606att Gi174wer
>Agamemnon wrote:
>> Obvioulsy YHWH
Even if one should assume there was ever a Hebrew language it has
been a dead language for at least 2300 years. Therefore any meanings
ascribed to scrolls containing that dead language were derived solely from
rote memorization for those 2300 years.
As there are no independent examples of that assumed to have existed
language there is no reason to believe meanings assigned to the written
letters has any validity.
--
Even I am impressed with me.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 581
M1131att Gi108wer
reason to assume they were intended as separate words without reference to
related languages in the same group such as Greek.
--
Israel tried to trade the least valuable of what stole
for the for the most valuable and expects gratitude
for the attempt.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 854
M1887att Gi247wer
>> Huh, what about the 'Septaguinta' or translation of the Scripture or Old
>> Testament from Greek into Hebrew comissioned by the Library of Alexandria
>> in Egypt? I think this was done before the wars of Judea with Antiochus
>> Epiphanes. I would have to look this up but I think this is in the
>> second century, or possibly the third, B.C. This was, also, ... a
>> translation.
> The Seputagint was a translation from Hebrew to Greek and is generally
>agreed to have been prepared about 200 B.C.E. There are actually several
>versions.
The origin of that story is Josephus but his story does not pass the
accepted standards for ancient texts. His story is at the same level as that
of Joseph Smith and the golden plates.
And most of what Josephus wrote does not pass the giggle test. But
if you wish to swear by him in his translation story I am certain you will
have no problem standing by him with his story of the Judeans having
originated in India.
--
Sharon is the last bullet in the Israeli gun.
When he fails, all fails.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 699
BernardZ
83giwersworld.org says...
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, BernardZ wrote:
>
> >In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202240154590.27788-100000@force>, mat44t@
> >76giwersworld.org says...
>
> >> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, BernardZ wrote:
>
> >> >In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202222221330.27788-100000@force>, mat31t@
> >> >74giwersworld.org says...
>
> >> >> If no one had ever heard of Hebrews/Israelites or any of the bible
> >> >> stuff and archaeologists happened to find the torah books on clay
> >> >> tablets some place in the Near East ...
>
> >> >Check this book out
>
> >> Appeal to authority? Get him to post here so we can discuss it with
> >> him.
>
> >Yeah! Sure one of the greatest archeologist in the world, is going to come
> >to this forum, to debate with a known Nazi kook.
>
> Appeal to authority has been a designated piece of shit for over
> 2000 years. If he won't be here, YOU defend your position without him. In
> this debate it stands or falls upon _YOU_ and only you if you advance the
> position.
Okay. No problem with that.
>
> >> >What did the biblical writers know & when did they know it? By William
> >> >G. Dever
>
> >> >Most of the early writing would have been written on papyrus
> >> >unfortunately it was perishable. However quite a bit has been found on
> >> >broken pottery and carved in stone.
>
> >> If the Torah were "original" it would have been written in
> >> hieroglyphs or the fantasy of "perfect copies" of it would not exist.
>
> >Why would ancient Jews use hieroglyphics?
>
> After 400 years in Egypt (according to the story) and coming from
> what is modern Iraq, it is dumber than dog shit to think they would write
> anything else like assuming Blacks in America would speak Zulu.
The blacks are a bad example as they speak the language of the place
where they live. In what is former French territory this is French, in
the former areas under the English they speak English, in the areas that
was under Dutch rule they speak Dutch and in Israel they speak Hebrew.
Going by your example the ancient Jews would have spoken the language of
the place they lived which would be old cannite. This we can see from
archeology is what they did.
BernardZ
replace.wi...@hello.to says...
>
> "BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
> news:MPG.16e36970ad708ef498977b@news...
> > In article <a57rem$qc1$1...@paris.btinternet.com>,
> > replace.wi...@hello.to says...
>
> > > >
> > > > Yahweh (is) the God of the whole earth; the mountains of Judah belong
> to
> > > > him, to the God of Jerusalem.
> > >
> > > The inscription is either referring to king Ahaz, who in other
> inscriptions
> > > is called Yahweh or has been wrongly dated.
> > >
> > > "Ahaz (is) the king of the whole land; the mountains of Judah belong to
> him,
> > > to the king of Jerusalem."
> >
> > As a translator you suck!
> >
> > The Hebrew word for King is not the same as God.
>
> BULLSHIT.
>
> The Hebrew word form king Melech comes from the Phoenician Melquart which
> means GOD. Thus the words for King and God are interchangable. Elohim means
> both King and God. This is blatantly obvious since all the kings of Assyria,
> Babylon, Syria-Palestine and Egypt styled themselves as Living Gods.
But not the kings of Israel or Judah called himself a God! We can see
this from the seals. We now have hundreds of them.
Elohim (God) certainly does not mean king in Hebrew.
>
> Since you fail to understand that basic structure of Hebrew it is point lese
> addressing any of you other statements since they are all baloney.
I actually can read it.
>
> Matt has already pointed out correctly that almost every word in the Hebrew
> bible has at least two alternate meanings, the common meaning and the
> meaning which had been MADE UP by the Rabbis to make the bible say whatever
> they want it to say.
This is nonsense. Check a Hebrew/English dictionary.
>
> >
> > The meaning is quite clear. Several other have been found. By the way
> > the seal of several Israel kings have been found and Ahaz does not equal
> > God.
>
> Ahaz is given as Yahaz. His so-called son Hezekiah is given in inscriptions
> as Heziyahu. Ahab is called both Yahua and Yahweh in inscriptions.
Which inscriptions are these?
Ahab is also referred to by the Assyrian records as "the house (dynasty)
of Omri"
>
> It is clear that YHWH and its variants was a standard declination denoting
> masculine gender and equivalent to the Greek ending "on" and therefore NOT a
> reference to any god but to a man. Nobody would translate Argyron as "Silver
> of God" except a Jewish religious fanatic.
I don't know what Argyron has to do with this? Please explain!
>
> From the comparison of Hezekiah and Heziyahu it is aboudently obvious that
> "yahu" is equivalent to "kiah" both of which are corruption of the Greek
> "Ion" which means "native" or "land man" (Robert Graves) ie. gia yion.
Pig arse.
Hezekiah = God is my strength
A net search for Heziyahu came up as nothing.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Heziyahu&btnG=Google+Search
Like I said your refusal to accept facts means that
"Agamemnon" = Spammer
BernardZ
We now have over hundreds of inscriptions, I would say maybe 1000 dating
from the 10 to 6 century. I have never heard of them, ever being written
backwards.
BernardZ
74giwersworld.org says...
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:
>
> >Agamemnon wrote:
>
> >> NAZI.
>
> >Not a single one. Not because I lack the will, but because I lack the
> >opportunity.
>
> An admission of murderous desire is hardly a way to avoid the
> stereotype of a zionist.
Unfortunately the stereotype of a Zionist is not that at all but a lamb
who is allowing suicide bombers to cross into his country kill people
and then in retaliation blow up a few empty building.
Do you really believe that the US if attacked by suicide bombers would
act with such restraint! Look at Afghan, it was only four planes and
they went to war.
BernardZ
95giwersworld.org says...
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:
>
> >Agamemnon wrote:
>
> >> Obvioulsy YHWH
>
> >yod hey vav hey is the future form of to be also in the vav consecutive
> >which uses the future form as a past perfective it is translated he is.
> >Learn some hebrew, asshole.
>
> Even if one should assume there was ever a Hebrew language it has
> been a dead language for at least 2300 years. Therefore any meanings
> ascribed to scrolls containing that dead language were derived solely from
> rote memorization for those 2300 years.
So. Latin has been in a similar position. Its only been remembered by
the Churches.
>
> As there are no independent examples of that assumed to have existed
> language there is no reason to believe meanings assigned to the written
> letters has any validity.
There are heaps of examples. The dead sea scrolls which you are
discussed before for one.
Agamemnon
"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
FOOL. If they spent 100 years in Egypt they would have spoken Egyptian and
the Pentateuch would be in Heroglyphics. Since the Jews do not speak
Egyptian the story of the Egyptian captivity is a LIE.
Agamemnon
"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
> >
> > The Hebrew word form king Melech comes from the Phoenician Melquart
which
> > means GOD. Thus the words for King and God are interchangable. Elohim
means
> > both King and God. This is blatantly obvious since all the kings of
Assyria,
> > Babylon, Syria-Palestine and Egypt styled themselves as Living Gods.
>
> But not the kings of Israel or Judah called himself a God! We can see
> this from the seals. We now have hundreds of them.
POPPYCOCK. All of the kings of Syria-Palestine deemed themselves to be God.
>
>
> Elohim (God) certainly does not mean king in Hebrew.
WRONG.
Its a corruption of the same root as Baal and Melquart thus it also means
lord or king.
>
> >
> > Since you fail to understand that basic structure of Hebrew it is point
lese
> > addressing any of you other statements since they are all baloney.
>
> I actually can read it.
>
I said UNDERSTAND not read.
>
>
> >
> > Matt has already pointed out correctly that almost every word in the
Hebrew
> > bible has at least two alternate meanings, the common meaning and the
> > meaning which had been MADE UP by the Rabbis to make the bible say
whatever
> > they want it to say.
>
> This is nonsense. Check a Hebrew/English dictionary.
I don't need a Hebrew dictionary since almost every worked of Hebrew can be
traced to a Greek root.
Look at the name "Rafael" which originates from the Greek root "Grafaon".
"Grafi" means to writhed and derives from "Rafin" meaning "of the needle"
and "On" is the genitive ending which is equivalent to "El".
Thus your so called Angel or Messenger was a common SCRIBE.
But as usual you religious BIGOTS fail to realise the true origins of the
language and words you are using and prefer to delude yourselves that Rafael
means something to do with god.
>
> >
> > >
> > > The meaning is quite clear. Several other have been found. By the way
> > > the seal of several Israel kings have been found and Ahaz does not
equal
> > > God.
> >
> > Ahaz is given as Yahaz. His so-called son Hezekiah is given in
inscriptions
> > as Heziyahu. Ahab is called both Yahua and Yahweh in inscriptions.
>
> Which inscriptions are these?
Moabite Stone. Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser and the infamous seals.
>
> Ahab is also referred to by the Assyrian records as "the house (dynasty)
> of Omri"
>
>
> >
> > It is clear that YHWH and its variants was a standard declination
denoting
> > masculine gender and equivalent to the Greek ending "on" and therefore
NOT a
> > reference to any god but to a man. Nobody would translate Argyron as
"Silver
> > of God" except a Jewish religious fanatic.
>
> I don't know what Argyron has to do with this? Please explain!
See below.
>
> >
> > From the comparison of Hezekiah and Heziyahu it is aboudently obvious
that
> > "yahu" is equivalent to "kiah" both of which are corruption of the Greek
> > "Ion" which means "native" or "land man" (Robert Graves) ie. gia yion.
>
> Pig arse.
>
> Hezekiah = God is my strength
I knew you were going to say that. On the basis of your religiously
motivated bigotry Argyron would mean "Silver of God".
>
> A net search for Heziyahu came up as nothing.
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Heziyahu&btnG=Google+Search
>
Try a different transliteration you fool.
Agamemnon
"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
First of all it is NOT you land. It is PALESTINIAN land ILLEGALLY occupied
by ILLEGAL Jewish settlers and the Jewish army. The Palestinians have every
right to take action against them.
Secondly you have NO right to occupy this Palestinian land or to launch
terrorist attacks against refugee camps and kill pregnant women and children
in cold blood.
You Zionist fanatics deserve to be bombed to hell just as much as your
comrades in Al-Kaida.
Agamemnon
"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
FOOL. There are many parallel translations of Latin texts next to Greek
texts so the meaning of every word is known.
NOTHING exists of any Hebrew parallels translations prior to 65 BC which
indicates that Hebrew was an NON existent language until then.
And when parallel translations do exist from the 1st century the Biblical
meaning is completely different from the meaning used by Josephus.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> Look at the name "Rafael" which originates from the Greek root "Grafaon".
Nope. R'fuat El the healing of god. Hebrew R'fuah means to heal.
>
>
> "Grafi" means to writhed and derives from "Rafin" meaning "of the needle"
> and "On" is the genitive ending which is equivalent to "El".
>
> Thus your so called Angel or Messenger was a common SCRIBE.
Mlach in hebrew. Actually means factotum or errand boy. "Angel" carried out
tasks.
>
>
> But as usual you religious BIGOTS fail to realise the true origins of the
> language and words you are using and prefer to delude yourselves that Rafael
> means something to do with god.
You are totally ignorant of Hebraic word roots.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon
"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
FOOLISH person. Look at the so-called seal of Hezekiah (Heziyahu) and guess
what. Its written BACKWARDS.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> First of all it is NOT you land. It is PALESTINIAN land ILLEGALLY occupied
In those days there were no Palestineans. Palestianeans popped into existence in
1964 with the declaration of the PLO charter. In the old days, Palestinia was
owned by the Ottoman Turks and fell into British hands after WWI. The
"Palestineans" owned shit.
>
> by ILLEGAL Jewish settlers and the Jewish army. The Palestinians have every
> right to take action against them.
Did you know that virtually every inch of land in North America was stolen from
the Indians. Do you also advocate that we give it all back?
If you inveigh against the Jews for apparently doing what Americans have done,
and do not similarly take the Americans to task, it is safe to conclude that you
are a drooling anti-semite.
Bob Kolker
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
> FOOL. If they spent 100 years in Egypt they would have spoken Egyptian and
> the Pentateuch would be in Heroglyphics. Since the Jews do not speak
> Egyptian the story of the Egyptian captivity is a LIE.
If you go down to the Korea-Town portion of L.A. virtually every sign is in
Korean. If your theory were true, then they would be in English. If the Hebrews
had their own enclave in Egypt, which according to the bible, was the land of
Goshen, they would have retained much of their customs and language.
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon
>
>
> Agamemnon wrote:
>
> >
> > Look at the name "Rafael" which originates from the Greek root
"Grafaon".
>
> Nope. R'fuat El the healing of god. Hebrew R'fuah means to heal.
POPPYCOCK. The El of Rafael has NOTHING to do with god.
Cant you fools understand that El and Yahu are a genitive ending like Greek
"On", "Klese" and "Ides".
And what the hell has "to heal" got to do with the activities of an Angel or
MESSENGER.
The "Rafa" of Rafael is from the GREEK Grafi meaning "to write" as in
Grafiti, which was the general activity of an angelon or messenger.
>
> >
> >
> > "Grafi" means to writhed and derives from "Rafin" meaning "of the
needle"
> > and "On" is the genitive ending which is equivalent to "El".
> >
> > Thus your so called Angel or Messenger was a common SCRIBE.
>
> Mlach in hebrew. Actually means factotum or errand boy. "Angel" carried
out
> tasks.
blah blah blah....
>
> >
> >
> > But as usual you religious BIGOTS fail to realise the true origins of
the
> > language and words you are using and prefer to delude yourselves that
Rafael
> > means something to do with god.
>
> You are totally ignorant of Hebraic word roots.
>
You are the one who is totally ignotent.
Next you'll be telling us that Synagogue is a Hebrew word when everyone know
for a fact that it is of GREEK origin.
Now the question is WHAT THE HELL are the Jews doing using a GREEK word to
describe their places of worship. If this religion of theirs has been going
as long as they claim you'd think they'd have used a non-Greek word for
their most impotent religious centres.
> Bob Kolker
>
>
Agamemnon
>
>
> Agamemnon wrote:
>
> >
> > First of all it is NOT you land. It is PALESTINIAN land ILLEGALLY
occupied
>
> In those days there were no Palestineans. Palestianeans popped into
existence in
> 1964 with the declaration of the PLO charter. In the old days, Palestinia
was
> owned by the Ottoman Turks and fell into British hands after WWI. The
> "Palestineans" owned shit.
BULLSHIT. The Ottomans SCUM were ILLEGAL occupiers and were kicked out in
1918. At that time there were very few if any Jews living in what the
British called PALESTINE. Thus almost EVERYONE in Palestine was Palestinian
and either Muslims of Christian.
> >
> > by ILLEGAL Jewish settlers and the Jewish army. The Palestinians have
every
> > right to take action against them.
>
> Did you know that virtually every inch of land in North America was stolen
from
> the Indians. Do you also advocate that we give it all back?
We'll that's what the Americans seem to be doing with the reservations.
Besides which your comparison is inappropriate since the Indians were
nomadic hunter gatherers whereas the Palestinians were not. The Indians
never settled down in any one place in America and if the had have done the
land the occupied would have only amounted to a fraction of the territory
inhibited today. America gave the Indians the same property rights as every
other American was given when America was settled. All the land that they
and their families could lay claim to by farming or building a settlement
they could have the property rights to. This was the law worldwide of the
day.
The Palestinians on the other hand has already built homes and farmed
virtually all the land in Palestine, land from which they were ethnically
cleansed by the Jews which is an act of Genocide which did not conform to
any contemporary legal code.
> If you inveigh against the Jews for apparently doing what Americans have
done,
> and do not similarly take the Americans to task, it is safe to conclude
that you
> are a drooling anti-semite.
How the hell can I be and anti-Semite when I support the Palestinians.
Every square inch of land in Palestine was occupied by the Palestinians
untill the 1940's but was ethnically cleansed by force and Jewish Terrorism
after the illegal creation of Israel in 1948. The Palestinians NEVER
consented to the Jews being given homes in Palestine after WW2 when it was
under British occpation. It was universally recognised that Britain had NO
RIGHT to import Jewish settlers into Palestine.
The Palestinians have every right to be given their land back which the
legally own.
>
> Bob Kolker
>
>
Agamemnon
Except this is all a LIE. The ONLY foreigners that were ever allowed to live
in Egypt by the Egyptian were the Greeks and the enclave you are referring
to was a Greek enclave founded at the time of Perseus c.1345 BC which in the
bibles chronology was the time of Jacob. Just like the identity of the Sea
Peoples the FORGERS of the bible have plagiarised the identity of GREEKS to
falsify their fictitious history.
"[2.91.1] The Egyptians are averse to adopt Greek customs, or, in a word,
those of any other nation. This feeling is almost universal among them. At
Chemmis, however, which is a large city in the Thebaic canton, near
Neapolis, there is a square enclosure sacred to Perseus, son of Danae. Palm
trees grow all round the place, which has a stone gateway of an unusual
size, surmounted by two colossal statues, also in stone. Inside this
precinct is a temple, and in the temple an image of Perseus. The people of
Chemmis say that Perseus often appears to them, sometimes within the sacred
enclosure, sometimes in the open country: one of the sandals which he has
worn is frequently found- two cubits in length, as they affirm- and then all
Egypt flourishes greatly. In the worship of Perseus Greek ceremonies are
used; gymnastic games are celebrated in his honour, comprising every kind of
contest, with prizes of cattle, cloaks, and skins. I made inquiries of the
Chemmites why it was that Perseus appeared to them and not elsewhere in
Egypt, and how they came to celebrate gymnastic contests unlike the rest of
the Egyptians: to which they answered, "that Perseus belonged to their city
by descent. Danans and Lynceus were Chemmites before they set sail for
Greece, and from them Perseus was descended," they said, tracing the
genealogy; "and he, when he came to Egypt for the purpose" (which the Greeks
also assign) "of bringing away from Libya the Gorgon's head, paid them a
visit, and acknowledged them for his kinsmen- he had heard the name of their
city from his mother before he left Greece- he bade them institute a
gymnastic contest in his honour, and that was the reason why they observed
the practice." "
>
> Bob Kolker
>
>
>
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> Next you'll be telling us that Synagogue is a Hebrew word when everyone know
> for a fact that it is of GREEK origin.
Indeed. In the Mishna there are many words borrowed from Greek just as English
borrows words from other languages. For example synagagos which borrowed
wholesale. The Hebrew counterpart is bet knesset (meeting house) or bet t'fillah
(prayer house) or bet midrash (house of study of midras).
Other borrows in the Mishnah. Sandlar (a sandler), andraginous (androgynous) and
probably several dozen more that I can't think of at the moment. If you consider
that the Mishnah was compiled in the Greco-Roman world and that Koine was
commonly used in the port and large cities of the Holy Land, which is it
surprising that some Greek words came into use/
>
>
> Now the question is WHAT THE HELL are the Jews doing using a GREEK word to
> describe their places of worship.
See above. What the hell are Americans doing referring to their wise men as
gurus and their foremen as honchos and their enthusiasms as gung ho. People who
use language A often borrow words and phrases from language B, then the item in
B is shorter or better nuanced than the word in their own language. English is
full of Yiddishisms, for example. In show business the term schmooze for
buttering up someone is in common use or the term kosher meaning ethically
proper.
> If this religion of theirs has been going
> as long as they claim you'd think they'd have used a non-Greek word for
> their most impotent religious centres.
Like the word Bet Ha Mikdosh for "temple". The Israelites never called their
temple a temple. It was Bet Ha Mikdosh. The Greek word Synagagous was picked up
during the Mishnaic period some 200-300 years B.C.E.
Bob Kolker
Bob Kolker
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> How the hell can I be and anti-Semite when I support the Palestinians.
The sure sign of the anti-semite is to assert that the word refers to any other
than Jews. The term was coined by Willheim Marr, a german phhilosopher, to mean
*precisely* a Jew hater. It was coined with that meaning. Jew Hating droolers
like you play that cute little game with the word "anti-semite".
Bob Kolker
The American
i would have thought Bob and BernardZ would have known better.
(Agamemnon sounds like giwer anyway. different name maybe?)
BernardZ
replace.wi...@hello.to says...
>
> "BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
> news:MPG.16e4b89643237f26989788@news...
> > In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202250006030.27788-100000@force>, mat40t@
> > 95giwersworld.org says...
> > > On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:
> > >
> > > >Agamemnon wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Obvioulsy YHWH
> > >
> > > >yod hey vav hey is the future form of to be also in the vav consecutive
> > > >which uses the future form as a past perfective it is translated he is.
> > > >Learn some hebrew, asshole.
> > >
> > > Even if one should assume there was ever a Hebrew language it has
> > > been a dead language for at least 2300 years. Therefore any meanings
> > > ascribed to scrolls containing that dead language were derived solely
> from
> > > rote memorization for those 2300 years.
> >
> > So. Latin has been in a similar position. Its only been remembered by
> > the Churches.
> >
> > >
> > > As there are no independent examples of that assumed to have existed
> > > language there is no reason to believe meanings assigned to the written
> > > letters has any validity.
> >
> > There are heaps of examples. The dead sea scrolls which you are
> > discussed before for one.
>
> FOOL. There are many parallel translations of Latin texts next to Greek
> texts so the meaning of every word is known.
What has Latin or Greek to do with anything in the Dead sea scrolls.
>
> NOTHING exists of any Hebrew parallels translations prior to 65 BC which
> indicates that Hebrew was an NON existent language until then.
There probably as 1000's of archelogical relics with Hebrew in them
dating back from 1000 to 600 BCE. So this statement is false.
>
> And when parallel translations do exist from the 1st century the Biblical
> meaning is completely different from the meaning used by Josephus.
>
Huh.
BernardZ
replace.wi...@hello.to says...
No quite.
It is inscribed counter-clockwise. This is to separate the phrase "King
of Judah" into two parts. "King" remained at the end of the inscription
to signify title, and Judah, on its own line, proclaimed the country's
name.
BernardZ
replace.wi...@hello.to says...
>
> "Bob Kolker" <bobk...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:3C7A351F...@attbi.com...
> >
> >
> > Agamemnon wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > First of all it is NOT you land. It is PALESTINIAN land ILLEGALLY
> occupied
> >
> > In those days there were no Palestineans. Palestianeans popped into
> existence in
> > 1964 with the declaration of the PLO charter. In the old days, Palestinia
> was
> > owned by the Ottoman Turks and fell into British hands after WWI. The
> > "Palestineans" owned shit.
>
> BULLSHIT. The Ottomans SCUM were ILLEGAL occupiers and were kicked out in
> 1918. At that time there were very few if any Jews living in what the
> British called PALESTINE. Thus almost EVERYONE in Palestine was Palestinian
> and either Muslims of Christian.
Your modern history is shit just like your ancient history.
The (1831-1840) conquest, by Egypt's Mohammed Ali, was solidified by
thousands of Egyptians settling empty spaces between Gaza and Tul-Karem
up to the Hula Valley. 30,000-36,000 Syrian migrants (Huranis) entered
Palestine (in 1934) Syrian rulers have always considered the area as a
southern province of Greater Syria.Az-ed-Din el-Qassam, the role-model
of Hamas terrorism, who terrorized Jews in British Mandate Palestine,
was a Syrian, as were Said el-A'az, a leader of the 1936-38 anti-Jewish
pogroms and Kaukji, the commander-in-chief of the Arab mercenaries
terrorizing Jews in the thirties and forties.
Many Palestinians are descendants of Egyptian, Sudanese, Syrian and
Lebanese migrants, who settled in the current boundaries of Israel
during 1830-1945. Migrant workers were imported by the Ottomans and
(since 1919) by the British authorities. Illegal Arab laborers were also
attracted by the relative boom, stimulated by Jewish immigration, which
expanded labor-intensive enterprises
At the start of Jewish resettlement around 1870, the entire population
west of the Jordan River was barely 140,000. By 1948, there were some
700,000 Arabs just in the restricted area that became the State of
Israel. The bulk of them were new or recent arrivals, who came from
other regions and other countries because Jewish development here
offered a chance for a better living and better living conditions than
they could hope for in their original homes.
Today we can identified over 15 Arab nationalities who settled
in Jaffa. Libyan migrants and refugees settled in Gedera, south of Tel
Aviv. Algerian refugees (Mugrabis), escaping the French conquest of
1830, settled in Safed, Tiberias and other parts of the Galilee.
Circassian refugees, fleeing Russian oppression (1878), Moslems from
Bosnia, Turkomans, Yemenite Arabs (1908) and Bedouin tribes from
Jordan (escaping wars and famine) diversified Arab demography there.
BernardZ
> describe their places of worship. If this religion of theirs has been going
> as long as they claim you'd think they'd have used a non-Greek word for
In English the word is Synagogue, in Hebrew is beit k'nesset (literally,
House of Assembly).
> their most impotent religious centres.
Your spelling ain't better then your historical knowledge.
Agamemnon
"BernardZ" <Bern...@FlagIname.com to reply delete Flag> wrote in message
BULLSHIT. Hebrew did NOT exist in either 600 or 1000 BC. If you call the
language that was spoken at that time Hebrew that's like saying modern
English is ancient Greek and it proves you are a bigger fool than I thought.
Jonathan I. Edelstein
[deletia]
<sigh> I really shouldn't get involved, but...
>> If this religion of theirs has been going as long as they claim
>> you'd think they'd have used a non-Greek word for their most
>> impotent
You do mean "important," don't you?
>> religious centres.
> Like the word Bet Ha Mikdosh for "temple". The Israelites never
> called their temple a temple. It was Bet Ha Mikdosh. The Greek
> word Synagagous was picked up during the Mishnaic period some
> 200-300 years B.C.E.
There's also the fact that synagogues came into being along with
_rabbinic_ Judaism, which didn't exist before the Mishnaic period.
There were no synagogues in classical Israel; the first synagogues
were built during the Hellenistic diaspora, so it isn't surprising
that the word "synagogue" derives from Greek. The words for pre-
rabbinic places of worship have nothing to do with Greek.
It's never been any secret that synagogues are a relatively recent
innovation (in the Jewish time scale, at any rate) and that Judaism
existed for centuries before the first synagogue was built. If
"Agamemnon" wants to prove that Hebrew was derived from Greek,
he'll have to do much better than that.
Jonathan I. Edelstein in Kew Gardens, NY
"Who is wise? He who learns from all."
- Ben Zoma, Pirkei Avot 4:1
Lois Tilton
> (Agamemnon sounds like giwer anyway. different name maybe?)
Same species. This specimen infests soc.history.ancient and iirc
soc.archaeology ngs.
--
LT
Bob Kolker
Lois Tilton wrote:
Antisemeticus droolus horriblis.
Bob Kolker
Lois Tilton
>> Same species. This specimen infests soc.history.ancient and iirc
>> soc.archaeology ngs.
>>
> Antisemeticus droolus horriblis.
Monomanicos philhellenicos.
--
LT
Bob Kolker
Lois Tilton wrote:
>
> Monomanicos philhellenicos.
That is Greek to me.
Bob Kolker
Lois Tilton
>> Monomanicos philhellenicos.
> That is Greek to me.
EVERYTHING is Greek to Agamemon.
--
LT
M3755att Gi541wer
>In article <a5ahfu$i61$1...@helle.btinternet.com>,
>replace.wi...@hello.to says...
>> BULLSHIT.
>> The Hebrew word form king Melech comes from the Phoenician Melquart which
>> means GOD. Thus the words for King and God are interchangable. Elohim
>> means both King and God. This is blatantly obvious since all the kings of
>> Assyria, Babylon, Syria-Palestine and Egypt styled themselves as Living
>> Gods.
>But not the kings of Israel or Judah called himself a God! We can see
>this from the seals. We now have hundreds of them.
We have preferred translations based upon religious presumptions and
little more.
>Elohim (God) certainly does not mean king in Hebrew.
You have to believe seven impossible things before breakfast every
morning to believe yahweh elohim can be translated lord god. There are over
a thousands instances of that theologically inspired "translation."
>> Since you fail to understand that basic structure of Hebrew it is point
>> lese addressing any of you other statements since they are all baloney.
>I actually can read it.
>> Matt has already pointed out correctly that almost every word in the
>> Hebrew bible has at least two alternate meanings, the common meaning and
>> the meaning which had been MADE UP by the Rabbis to make the bible say
>> whatever they want it to say.
>This is nonsense. Check a Hebrew/English dictionary.
Get from yahweh elohim to lord god some day in your spare time. That
second word sure looks plural to me and if that first word means lord it is
not the only word meaning lord.
You may call in nonsense but there it is right from over 1000
critical usages given a theological meaning supporting monotheism.
>> > The meaning is quite clear. Several other have been found. By the way
>> > the seal of several Israel kings have been found and Ahaz does not equal
>> > God.
>> Ahaz is given as Yahaz. His so-called son Hezekiah is given in inscriptions
>> as Heziyahu. Ahab is called both Yahua and Yahweh in inscriptions.
>Which inscriptions are these?
>Ahab is also referred to by the Assyrian records as "the house (dynasty)
>of Omri"
Where is the other usage of the word where it clearly means dynasty?
Looks like a house to me.
>> From the comparison of Hezekiah and Heziyahu it is aboudently obvious that
>> "yahu" is equivalent to "kiah" both of which are corruption of the Greek
>> "Ion" which means "native" or "land man" (Robert Graves) ie. gia yion.
>Pig arse.
>Hezekiah = God is my strength
Like the word "israel" means wrestled with god because of a passage
in the OT which says "wrestled with god means wrestled with god." Nice try
for people at the time knowing it meant seat of ra and el.
--
States require proof of age for tobacco and alcohol
but not for lottery tickets. Ever wonder?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 233
M1527att Gi155wer
>In article <3C78E835...@attbi.com>, bobk...@attbi.com says...
>> Agamemnon wrote:
>> > Obvioulsy YHWH
>> yod hey vav hey is the future form of to be also in the vav consecutive
>> which uses the future form as a past perfective it is translated he is.
>> Learn some hebrew, asshole.
>We now have over hundreds of inscriptions, I would say maybe 1000 dating
>from the 10 to 6 century. I have never heard of them, ever being written
>backwards.
Meaning they are not written in this magical hebrew?
--
Don't let the gorons get you down.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 337
M2286att Gi294wer
>In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202240542370.27788-100000@force>, mat64t@
>83giwersworld.org says...
>> After 400 years in Egypt (according to the story) and coming from
>> what is modern Iraq, it is dumber than dog shit to think they would write
>> anything else like assuming Blacks in America would speak Zulu.
>The blacks are a bad example as they speak the language of the place where
>they live. In what is former French territory this is French, in the former
>areas under the English they speak English, in the areas that was under
>Dutch rule they speak Dutch and in Israel they speak Hebrew.
That is correct. The proper analogy is after 400 years in the US
they return to Africa and begin speaking Mandarin.
>Going by your example the ancient Jews would have spoken the language of
>the place they lived which would be old cannite. This we can see from
>archeology is what they did.
No one imagines the other langauges in the region were other than
variants upon Greek.
As the obvious question is, if these stories were found inscribed on
clay tablets and the authors unknown, how could anyone identify the
langauges as other than a variant upon Linear B?
Another question is, where did the legend start that it is a
language other than what it appears to be?
--
Always go through life a little bit edible.
You never know when you will meet something hungry.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 138
M2797att Gi358wer
>Agamemnon wrote:
>> First of all it is NOT you land. It is PALESTINIAN land ILLEGALLY
>> occupied
>In those days there were no Palestineans. Palestianeans popped into
>existence in 1964 with the declaration of the PLO charter. In the old days,
>Palestinia was owned by the Ottoman Turks and fell into British hands after
>WWI. The "Palestineans" owned shit.
Amazing how the zionists imitate Adolph's description of Jews in
Vienna every chance the get.
In 1913 a zionist delegation approached the Sultan of the Empire and
asked for a homeland in Palestine. His rejected their request wtih, I rule
it not own it. The British similarly had an administrative mandate, not
ownership meaning they could give the land to no one.
Palestine has had variations on that name for nearly 2000 years.
Residents of Rome are called Romans. Residents of Palestine are called
Palestinians. There have been Palestinians for those same 2000 years.
>> by ILLEGAL Jewish settlers and the Jewish army. The Palestinians have
>> every right to take action against them.
>Did you know that virtually every inch of land in North America was stolen
>from the Indians. Do you also advocate that we give it all back?
Do you mean the Palestinians are in the same position as the Indians
and deserving of as much compensation?
>If you inveigh against the Jews for apparently doing what Americans have
>done, and do not similarly take the Americans to task, it is safe to
>conclude that you are a drooling anti-semite.
In 1948 Israel gave its solemn word to abide by all the governing
rules of the UN and to all the treaties it later signed.
The solemn word of an Israeli is meaningless.
--
Catapult testing has been condemned by the ASPCA.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 574
M2269att Gi263wer
>In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202250006030.27788-100000@force>, mat40t@
>95giwersworld.org says...
>> On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:
>> >Agamemnon wrote:
>> >> Obvioulsy YHWH
>> >yod hey vav hey is the future form of to be also in the vav consecutive
>> >which uses the future form as a past perfective it is translated he is.
>> >Learn some hebrew, asshole.
>> Even if one should assume there was ever a Hebrew language it has
>> been a dead language for at least 2300 years. Therefore any meanings
>> ascribed to scrolls containing that dead language were derived solely
>> from rote memorization for those 2300 years.
>So. Latin has been in a similar position. Its only been remembered by
>the Churches.
Are you getting desperate or do you really not know the history of
Latin being the common upper class and professional language in all of
western Europe until about two centuries ago? And are you aware there are
other texts in Latin going back farther than 2300 years with have not
religious connection whatsoever?
Don't bother to answer. Desperate. The issues are incommensurate
upon inspection.
--
The sun has been getting hotter for two centuries.
The Earth is getting warmer.
Surprise! Surprise!
-- The Iron Webmaster, 397
M2724att Gi350wer
>We'll that's what the Americans seem to be doing with the reservations.
>Besides which your comparison is inappropriate since the Indians were
>nomadic hunter gatherers whereas the Palestinians were not. The Indians
>never settled down in any one place in America and if the had have done the
>land the occupied would have only amounted to a fraction of the territory
>inhibited today. America gave the Indians the same property rights as every
>other American was given when America was settled. All the land that they
>and their families could lay claim to by farming or building a settlement
>they could have the property rights to. This was the law worldwide of the
>day.
Regardless of all of that and regardless of subsequent actions
dishonoring them at least the US had treaties with the Indian tribes in
favor of reservations.
There are no treaties with Palestinians.
But of course I raised this issue the last time this came up and
when I did, there was no response.
And just as Adolph described the Jews of Vienna, when the subject
comes up again they reply as though nothing had been said before.
I am reminded of the constant whine that the PLO had not removed the
"destruction of Israel" from it charter. They did. The they whined it was
not done in the manner Israel demanded. They did. Now Israel whines that it
was never removed.
Shades of Vienna. Adolph had at least one thing right. BTW: That is
the only place in MK that can be described as "the big lie" and it was of
his Viennese friends.
--
There is as much evidence for that existance of Moses
and Jesus as there is for gas chambers.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 783
M2047att Gi255wer
>Agamemnon wrote:
And if you had ever actually been to a "korea-town" you would know
1) It was hard to find as there are so few of them
2) They are barely thirty years old
If you go to a much easier to find a third generation chinese
ancestry person and inquire as to their working knowledge of any version of
Chinese.
For the last 20 years third generations New Yorkers of Puerto Rican
descent have been visiting the "old country" and discovering their street
lingo is not spanish.
--
All Palestinian actions are in response to
Israeli war crimes.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 678
M1111att Gi121wer
I use the Concorde to fly to Britain every morning and return in the
evening.
--
The Biblical Kingdom of Israel was destroyed by God
for the iniquity of Solomon. What man may resurrect
it in defiance of God?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 985
M1809att Gi205wer
>Now the question is WHAT THE HELL are the Jews doing using a GREEK word to
>describe their places of worship. If this religion of theirs has been going
>as long as they claim you'd think they'd have used a non-Greek word for
>their most impotent religious centres.
As there is no biblical basis for the existance of Hebrew and
therefore no theological basis for the belief the real question is how and
why and when did the belief originate?
One one think even these true believers can see there is no
religious basis and these atheists would reject such a basis as a matter of
policy.
Why can't any of them explain a language coming out of no where?
--
If the Irish controlled the media they would advertise
the fact and use it to demonstrate their fairness and
equal treatment for all.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 745
M2192att Gi262wer
>In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202240211380.27788-100000@force>, mat35t@
>74giwersworld.org says...
>> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:
>> >Agamemnon wrote:
>> >> So how many Palestinian civilians did you shoot dead today, you
>> >> Zionist NAZI.
>> >Not a single one. Not because I lack the will, but because I lack the
>> >opportunity.
>> An admission of murderous desire is hardly a way to avoid the
>> stereotype of a zionist.
>Unfortunately the stereotype of a Zionist is not that at all but a lamb who
>is allowing suicide bombers to cross into his country kill people and then
>in retaliation blow up a few empty building.
Nor is the image of their blood brothers, the Palestinians, a people
who will let military occupation stand without retaliation.
>Do you really believe that the US if attacked by suicide bombers would act
>with such restraint! Look at Afghan, it was only four planes and they went
>to war.
If the US were occupying another country I would expect nothing less
from those being occupied. Nor could I find fault with their actions in
response to occupation.
--
Welcome to another edition of Florida!
Two men enter. One man leaves.
Gore Master. Daley Blaster.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 352
M1815att Gi188wer
>Agamemnon wrote:
The sure sign of an ignorant person is to accept a prima facia
ignorant western european meaning adopted by a particular group to its own
uses. Sort of like the word gay.
--
Private ownership must be regulated for the common good by
politicians who regulate for the good of special interest
groups.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 950
M2025att Gi225wer
>What has Latin or Greek to do with anything in the Dead sea scrolls.
By the rules which apply to everything else, the old extant example
is the its earliest existance.
In archaeological discoveries when a new langauge is found it is
considered a recently developed language and further examples are sought to
establish the earliest instance and its place in the language tree.
What we have in the near east are Linear B variants and then in
whatever date is given the Dead Sea scrolls a modestly different member of
the same Linear B tree.
By the same rules as with all other languages its development
occured between the previous examples from the same region and those.
Similarly there is no cause to rule out script changes such as those which
occurred in Dark Ages monasteries over a similar number of years.
--
How long ago something feels like it happened is determined
by the fraction of one's life it was.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 994
M1436att Gi132wer
>There's also the fact that synagogues came into being along with _rabbinic_
>Judaism, which didn't exist before the Mishnaic period. There were no
>synagogues in classical Israel;
Are you back to supporting the myth that a 70 year or so Seat of Ra
and El is supposed to have a meaning of interest?
--
Do you believe in God?
If God believes in me the question is moot.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 1106
Anonymous
> of Hebrew is much deeper than mine. On the other hand, I have sort of
> a basic fluency in Modern Hebrew and a nodding acqaintance with
> biblical Hebrew. The language is written right to left so of course in
> a text you'd see "YHWH" written as "HWHY." On the other hand, despite
> a previous post, I have never seen or heard of reading some words
> right to left and some words left to right.
>
> --Alex Bensky
I think that some of the more ancient forms of written Greek was first
written from left to right and alternating next line from right to
left, back and forth, but soon after, it became all left to right,
along with the much later Latin script. Arabic is right to left, with
diacritics and no vowels, like Hebrew. Chinese goes up to down. I
think that ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics could be read either right
to left, left to right, or up to down, depending on the direction that
the characters faced. I am not sure about Hieritic or Demotic,
however. I think I remember reading about Phoenecian once. I think
that it is right to left, but I might be remembering it wrong.
Agamemnon
"Jonathan I. Edelstein" <Jonatha...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:a5e8d...@drn.newsguy.com...
> On 25 February 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:
>
> It's never been any secret that synagogues are a relatively recent
> innovation (in the Jewish time scale, at any rate) and that Judaism
> existed for centuries before the first synagogue was built. If
RUBBISH. There is NOT ONE shred of evidence to suggest the existence of
Judaism before the Hellenistic age. No temples or similar places of worship,
no priestly garments with blue fringes, no religious burial sites, no boxes
on doorways or armbands with Hebrew prayers inside, no seven branched
candles sticks or any other vessels. NOTHING. ZILCH.
> "Agamemnon" wants to prove that Hebrew was derived from Greek,
> he'll have to do much better than that.
If you want to provide that the Jewish religion existed before Hellenistic
time then you have to provide evidence.
Agamemnon
"M1809att Gi205wer" <mat...@76giwersworld.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202252214030.27788-100000@force...
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Agamemnon wrote:
>
> >Now the question is WHAT THE HELL are the Jews doing using a GREEK word
to
> >describe their places of worship. If this religion of theirs has been
going
> >as long as they claim you'd think they'd have used a non-Greek word for
> >their most impotent religious centres.
>
> As there is no biblical basis for the existance of Hebrew and
> therefore no theological basis for the belief the real question is how and
> why and when did the belief originate?
>
The how is by the followers of Judas Maccabee who had no religious
scriptures like the Greeks or anyone else. They decided to replace every
instance of the proper name of Pharoah in the Septuagint with Kyrios, then
Adonai and then eventually YHWH in 65BC. The dead sea scrolls show the
Jewish religion in the process of its birth. No formal religion existed
before Herods temple was built in 21 BC and even then this was just a
minority cult.
The why is because the Jewish kings wanted to impose their authority on the
people and subjugate them.
The original religion practised in Syria-Palestine was the worship of the
King, and since the king was always called Ayahiwaha (YHWH) this became the
name of their new god.
Ayahiwaha (YHWH) is of course a corruption of the Hittite word (since the
Jewish kings were partly descended from Hittites), Ahhiyawa which is what
they called the Achaean Greeks who the Egyptians called Ekwesh:
Ekwesh = Eyakiwasha = Ayahiwasha = Ayahiwaha = Ahhiyawa = Achaeanous =
Ocheanous = Sea Peoples.
It was the Sea Peoples who were the people of the Exodus NOT the Jews who
are a complete fiction. It is only after the Exodus that bible starts
referring to the Inhabitants of Palestine as Jews. The Ioudai being a tribe
originating from Crete.
The other Sea Peoples included the Peleset or Philistines who were
worshipers of Dagon or Dionysus their first king who found their colony with
and army of Athenian Pelasgians in about 1400 BC.
From Egyptian we get:
Peleset = Philistines = Pelasgians = Thallasians = Sea Peoples.
According of Herodotus Greece was originally called Pelasgia which means
Land of Islands.
Thus the Ekwash or Achaeans were the real people of the Exodus which is
dated to 1193 BC and they took the Greek word Agios/Agion/Agio as the title
of their kings, which when corrupted into Hebrew or Aramaic becomes Yahu
which is found in virtually all of the names of the Jewish kings.
Just like the Assyrians incorporated the names of their ancestors Adad, or
Vul, or Enlil into the names of their kings all of which were
interchangeable, the Jews did the same and so Agios or Yahu or Ayahiwaha or
YHWH became their god.
"Encyclopaedia Britannica (online version)
Sea People
Any of the groups of aggressive seafarers who invaded eastern Anatolia,
Syria, Palestine, Cyprus, and Egypt toward the end of the Bronze Age,
especially in the 13th century BC. They are held responsible for the
destruction of old powers such as the Hittite Empire. Because of the abrupt
break in ancient Near Eastern records as a result of the invasions, the
precise extent and origin of the upheavals remain uncertain. Principal but
one-sided evidence for the Sea Peoples is based on Egyptian texts and
illustrations; other important information comes from Hittite sources and
from archaeological data.
The Egyptians waged two wars against the Sea Peoples: the first, in the
fifth year of King Merneptah; the second, in the reign of Ramses III.
Tentative identifications of the Sea Peoples listed in Egyptian documents
are as follows: Ekwesh, a group of Bronze Age Greeks (Achaeans; Ahhiyawa in
Hittite texts); Teresh, Tyrrhenians (Tyrsenoi), known to later Greeks as
sailors and pirates from Anatolia, ancestors of the Etruscans; Luka, a
coastal people of western Anatolia, also known from Hittite sources (their
name survives in classical Lycia on the southwest coast of Anatolia);
Sherden, probably Sardinians (the Sherden acted as mercenaries of the
Egyptians in the Battle of Kadesh, 1299 BC); Shekelesh, probably identical
with the Sicilian tribe called Siculi; Peleset, generally believed to refer
to the Philistines, who perhaps came from Crete and were the only major
tribe of the Sea Peoples to settle permanently in Palestine.
Further identifications of other Sea Peoples mentioned in the documents are
much more uncertain."
Herodotus:
"[1.57.1] What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any
certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by
the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at Creston
above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named
Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians- or
those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had
previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians- or those, in short, of
any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact
Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must
pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really
so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who
were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time
that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the
people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the
same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two
people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they
brought with them into the countries where they are now settled. "
Anonymous
> "Anonymous" <ax1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:2636c3ae.02022...@posting.google.com...
> > > If these were found on clay tablets they would not make any mention of
> any
> > > LORD GOD since this entity was only created in about 65 BC.
> >
> > Huh, what about the 'Septaguinta' or translation of the Scripture or
> > Old Testament from Greek into Hebrew comissioned by the Library of
> > Alexandria in
> > Egypt? I think this was done before the wars of Judea with Antiochus
> > Epiphanes. I would have to look this up but I think this is in the
> > second century, or possibly the third, B.C. This was, also, ... a
> > translation.
>
> The Septuagint was placed in the Library of Alexandrie in 262 BC and was
> commissioned by Antiochus Theos as a chronology of Syria-Palestine based on
> the Egyptian Annals.
Just skimming through my old Durant's 'The Life of Greece', chapter
25, part 3., 'Alexandria'. It said that probably a fifth of the
population of Alexandria was Jewish at the time. Legend told how
Ptolemy Philadelphus, at the suggestion of Demetrius of Phalerum, had
invited some seventy Jewish scholars to come from Judea about 250 to
translate the scriptures of their people. How the king had lodged
each of them in a seperate room on Pharos, and had kept them without
intercommunication until each had made his own translation of the
Pentateuch. How all of the seventy versions, when finished, agreed
word for word, proving the divine inspiration of the text and the
translators, and how from these circumstances the Greek version of the
Hebrew bible became known of as the hermeneia kata tous hebdomekonta -
the Interpretation according to the Seventy - In Latin, Interpretatio
Septuaginta, or 'Septuagint'.
It is said that the story was based upon a letter purporting to have
been written by one Aristeas in the first century A.D. The letter was
said to have been proved spurius by a Hody of Oxford in 1684. The
reference given was Sachar, A. L.: History of the Jews, N.Y., 1932, p
109. You would have to trace it from there if you wanted further
references.
Reviewing through this, however, the translations that were occurring
at this time was a translation of the Pentateuch, or first five books
of the Bible and Scripture. Many of the other books, however, were
still being written and compiled however perhaps brought together
later.
It said that Judea was subject to the Ptomelies in Egypt for about a
century, from 312-198 B.C, and paid an annual tribute of 8000 talents,
but still prospered well and was given a level of self government
under the hereditary high priest and the great assembly.
Then in 198 Antiochus III defeated Ptolemy V, and made Judea a part of
the Seleucid Empire. Overall, it said that the Jews welcomed
Antiochus III as a liberator from Egypt, but it was under Antiochus IV
(Epiphines) that he commanded that the Temple be rededicated as a
shrine to Zeus, that the usual sacrafices be replaced with a sacrafice
of swine, forbade the keeping of the Sabbath or the Jewish festivals,
made circimcision a capital crime, and made the Greek ritual compusory
on pain of death. Those found posessing the Book of the Law were to
be jailed, and the Book wherever found was to be burned. He made war
against the Jews, etc. etc. ... .
Nonetheless, the tale of Aristeas was said to have been discredited.
Nonetheless, do you have any references to the 'comission of Antiochus
Theos'?
It had NOTHING whatsoever with any Jews since these
> people did not exist until the time of Judas Maccabee who invented the
> entire religion by Plagiarising the Septuagint and concocting the story of
> the Exodus by dissembling the text which originally referred to the
> expulsion of the Greek Sea Peoples and combining it with Apollonius standard
> chronology which was devised in 262 BC when he became the first Chief
> Librarian which was later used by Diodorus. This is why the date of the
> so-called Exodus is EXACTLY the same as the date of the Trojan War 1193 BC !
The 'Trojan War', the collapse of the 'Egyptian Empire', and the
'Exodus' did seem to occur at nearly the same time periods in history.
It is also well known that during at least some of the second
milleneum B.C., the influence of the Egyptian Empire extended well
into Syria and western Asia. Still. It seems to me that there would
need to be a lot of rewriting to turn an epic or listing about Greece
or Egypt into one about Judea. As for there existance, who existed in
Judea from the collapse of the Egyptian Empire until the rise of
Assyria, Babylon, and Persia? Why would this region have been
completely uninhabited for all this period of time?
>
> Wrong. Iulius Caesar derives from the Greek word "Ilios" meaning "Sun" and
> the Assyrian "Hussur" or "Assur" meaning "King" or "God". The use of these
> titles was a standard practise for the Hittites and Teukarians from which
> Julius Caesar claimed to be descended from.
I looked it up at www.behindthename.com and it said that it meant
'downy-bearded' and 'hairy'. I looked it up in Webster's New World
dictionary and it gave another origin for Ceasar. Either way 'Glory
of Hera' was given for Heracles in both places. The Romans did claim
to be descended from the Trojans and Aneas in their mythology. Do you
have any references for this name origin (it might be possible ... )?
Still, if true, this would be even another example of the same general
idea, either way.
M1293att Gi119wer
>>> Monomanicos philhellenicos.
While there is a clear appearance of error "out of Africa" for
modern HSS clearly governs the discussion. There are additional genetic
studies which severely limit the contribution to the population and thus the
langauge they spoke.
--
Abortion is eugenics.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 311
M2026att Gi258wer
>I think that some of the more ancient forms of written Greek was first
>written from left to right and alternating next line from right to left,
>back and forth, but soon after, it became all left to right, along with the
>much later Latin script. Arabic is right to left, with diacritics and no
>vowels, like Hebrew. Chinese goes up to down. I think that ancient
>Egyptian Hieroglyphics could be read either right to left, left to right,
>or up to down, depending on the direction that the characters faced. I am
>not sure about Hieritic or Demotic, however. I think I remember reading
>about Phoenecian once. I think that it is right to left, but I might be
>remembering it wrong.
You can find backup for this in most any search.
All the current arabic scripts were invented and the inventors have
names. The story goes the original script was to ugly to transcribe the
Koran. They were like those who create fonts these days. There is nothing
strange about it.
Knowing Arabic script is a created langauge comments upon it have to
be made in that light.
--
One thing we know for certain.
Al Gore is no Dick Nixon.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 347
Agamemnon
"M3755att Gi541wer" <mat...@78giwersworld.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.33.0202252122270.27788-100000@force...
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, BernardZ wrote:
>
>
> >This is nonsense. Check a Hebrew/English dictionary.
>
> Get from yahweh elohim to lord god some day in your spare time. That
> second word sure looks plural to me and if that first word means lord it
is
> not the only word meaning lord.
Too damn right. Elohim is indeed plural thus Adonai-Elohim and
Ayahiwaha-Elohim means "King of Kings".
BernardZ
83giwersworld.org says...
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, BernardZ wrote:
>
> >In article <Pine.LNX.4.33.0202240211380.27788-100000@force>, mat35t@
> >74giwersworld.org says...
> >> On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Bob Kolker wrote:
>
> >> >Agamemnon wrote:
>
> >> >> So how many Palestinian civilians did you shoot dead today, you
> >> >> Zionist NAZI.
>
> >> >Not a single one. Not because I lack the will, but because I lack the
> >> >opportunity.
>
> >> An admission of murderous desire is hardly a way to avoid the
> >> stereotype of a zionist.
>
> >Unfortunately the stereotype of a Zionist is not that at all but a lamb who
> >is allowing suicide bombers to cross into his country kill people and then
> >in retaliation blow up a few empty building.
>
> Nor is the image of their blood brothers, the Palestinians, a people
> who will let military occupation stand without retaliation.
Except to retaliate, you must be attacked first.
>
> >Do you really believe that the US if attacked by suicide bombers would act
> >with such restraint! Look at Afghan, it was only four planes and they went
> >to war.
>
> If the US were occupying another country I would expect nothing less
> from those being occupied. Nor could I find fault with their actions in
> response to occupation.
Actual fact the people in Afghan welcomed us a liberators from the
Islamic extremist.