Leo X quote about fable of christ ... genuine?

[Nox Qs]

Is this true? Is this a lie?

Pope Leo X said: "What profit has not that fable of
Christ brought us!"15

15 The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, by Barbara
Walker, p. 471. Rev. Taylor, in The Diegesis, reports a slightly
different version of Leo X's admission: "It was well known how
profitable this fable of Christ has been to us." (footnote, p.
35.)

curiously
nox

[Tlwinslow]

Only his hairdresser knows for sure.

T.L. Winslow
Author of TLW's Great Track of Time
www.tlwinslow.com/timeline.html

[Quentin David Jones]

it seems a bit suspect to me...
It is oft-repeated, but never sourced.

QuentinJ

"Tlwinslow" <tlwi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020215000627...@mb-fc.aol.com...

[Tlwinslow]

>
>it seems a bit suspect to me...
>It is oft-repeated, but never sourced.
>
>Q

Right. Like I'm the head of the Christian religion and I'm going to leave
quotes behind that can be used to destroy the institution that owns me :)

Did you hear this one from American atheist leader Mad Mary O'Hara (sic):
"I'm on a mission from God."

[The Bibliographer]

In article <20020216183532...@mb-fc.aol.com>,

Tlwinslow <tlwi...@aol.com> wrote:
>>it seems a bit suspect to me...
>>It is oft-repeated, but never sourced.

>Right. Like I'm the head of the Christian religion and I'm going to leave
>quotes behind that can be used to destroy the institution that owns me :)

Well, the quotation, as given, is, indeed, documented -- but it is from
Alexander VI (1492-1503), not Leo X (1513-1521). The original can be found
in Johannes Burchard, <Johannis Burchardi Argentinensis Capelle Pontificie
Sacrorum Rituum Magistri Diarium, sive Rerum Urbanarum Commentarii
(1483-1506)>, edited by L Thuasne, 3 vols. (Paris: E. Leroux, 1883-1885).

I think you will find the passage near the front of volume three, in the
material Burchard records on the Jubilee of 1500.

Of course, Burchard's portrait of Alexander is highly unflattering, since
he did not advance in his career under the Borgia pope -- so his
commentary must be taken with a grain of salt.

--
Regards, Frank Young
tip...@wam.umd.edu 703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"

[Tlwinslow]

>Well, the quotation, as given, is, indeed, documented -- but it is from
>Alexander VI (1492-1503), not Leo X (1513-1521). The original can be found
>in Johannes Burchard, <Johannis Burchardi Argentinensis Capelle Pontificie
>Sacrorum Rituum Magistri Diarium, sive Rerum Urbanarum Commentarii
>(1483-1506)>, edited by L Thuasne, 3 vols. (Paris: E. Leroux, 1883-1885).
>
>I think you will find the passage near the front of volume three, in the
>material Burchard records on the Jubilee of 1500.
>
>Of course, Burchard's portrait of Alexander is highly unflattering, since
>he did not advance in his career under the Borgia pope -- so his
>commentary must be taken with a grain of salt.
>

Is this material available on the Web? If not, what university must I travel to
in order to dust off the volume in question?

T.L. Winslow
Author, TLW's Great Track of Time
www.tlwinslow.com/timeline.html

[Roger Pearse]

tip...@wam.umd.edu (The Bibliographer) wrote in message news:<a4oftv$b...@rac3.wam.umd.edu>...

> >>it seems a bit suspect to me...
> >>It is oft-repeated, but never sourced.

> >Right. Like I'm the head of the Christian religion and I'm going to leave
> >quotes behind that can be used to destroy the institution that owns me :)
>
> Well, the quotation, as given, is, indeed, documented -- but it is from
> Alexander VI (1492-1503), not Leo X (1513-1521). The original can be found
> in Johannes Burchard, <Johannis Burchardi Argentinensis Capelle Pontificie
> Sacrorum Rituum Magistri Diarium, sive Rerum Urbanarum Commentarii
> (1483-1506)>, edited by L Thuasne, 3 vols. (Paris: E. Leroux, 1883-1885).
>
> I think you will find the passage near the front of volume three, in the
> material Burchard records on the Jubilee of 1500.
>
> Of course, Burchard's portrait of Alexander is highly unflattering, since
> he did not advance in his career under the Borgia pope -- so his
> commentary must be taken with a grain of salt.

Thank you for this, which is highly interesting. I presume the diary
is in Latin? Any idea of the exact words?

I've had a look in the Bodleian catalogue, (www.bodley.ox.ac.uk) and
found him using an author search under "Burchardus, Joannes bp. of
Cività Castellana and Orte (Pre20 Author) (7)".

Here's the edition you refer to:

Title Johannis Burchardi ... Diarium, sive rerum urbanarum
commentarii, 1483-1506. Texte lat., publ. par L. Thuasne.
Author Burchardus, Joannes bp. of Cività Castellana and Orte.
Publisher Par. 1883-85
Description 3 tom. ; (80)
Other Names Thuasne, Louis,

But there were some other interesting entries:

Title Johannis Burchardi ... Diarium Innocentii viii, Alexandri vi,
Pii iii, et Julii ii tempora complectens, nunc primum publici juris
factum comm. adjectis ab A. Gennarelli. (Gli scrittori e i mon. della
storia ital.).
Author Burchardus, Joannes bp. of Cività Castellana and Orte.
Publisher Firenze 1855
Description cm.27
Notes [Incompl. No more publ.].
Other Names Gennarelli, Achille,

Which looks like an earlier edition. And further:

Title The diary of John Burchard of Strasburg, tr. with notes by A.H.
Mathew.
Author Burchardus, Joannes bp. of Cività Castellana and Orte.
Publisher Lond. 1910
Description <Vol. 1.> ; (80)
Notes [No more publ.].
Other Names Mathew, Arnold Harris,

Which I imagine will be easier to locate for many people. And at
Cambridge University Library:

Author: Burchard, Johann, d. 1506
Title: At the court of the Borgia: being an account of the reign of
Pope ALexander VI/ written by Johann Burchard; edited and translated
by Geoffrey Parker
London: Folio Society, 1963
245p; 22cm
Notes: Bibliography : p. [232]
Subjects: Alexander VI, Pope
Innocent VIII, Pope, 1432-1492
Borgia (Family)
Papal States--History
Other entries: Parker, Geoffrey, 1943-

So we're dealing here with editions of a manuscript diary of John
Burchard (sp. various), master of the papal ceremonies, according to a
couple of web pages. I'd never heard of him, I have to say - any
info, Mr. Bibliographer? I did find a web article:
http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI.

The 'quote' has started to circulate recently combined with another
'quote' about Eusebius which is bogus, and the current pairing seems
to be from a Jewish anti-Christian pamphlet. Since I happened to know
the Eusebius one, I've started to be interested in this about Leo X.

(Quentin, I agree it sounds very dubious. Cautious politicians try
very hard not to give handles like that to their enemies - and if the
renaissance popes were anything, they were politicians).

There is a comment on the quote in the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for
Leo X (online) which says that it is first attributed to him by John
Bale around 1600 (i.e. almost 80 years after Leo's death) as part of
anti-Catholic polemic.

Thank you for a highly interesting post, which has certainly expanded
my knowledge.

Best wishes,

Roger Pearse