Descent from early Merovingian Kings
HSJ
Regarding the descent from early Merovingian kings, newsgroup members
will doubtless be interested in the recent correspondence I had with
the renowned genealogist Christian Settipani about this matter. I've
copied below my original email to Mr. Settipani and his cordial reply
to me.
Sincerely,
Hardwick Smith Johnson, Jr., EdD
****************************
Merovingian Ancestry
Monday, February 23, 2009 7:11 PM
From: "Hardwick Johnson" <hsjohns...@yahoo.com>
To:ina...@club-internet.fr
Cc:hsjohns...@yahoo.com
Dear Mr. Settipani,
I am writing because of my interest in Merovingian Ancesty. I have
read some of your writings and am hoping that you may clarify some of
my questions.
I read a posting of yours on the medieval genealogy website, from 20
November 1999, where you made a strong case for the Merovingian
Ancestry of Berta. I am not a professional genealogist but was
impressed with your reasoning.
I'm wondering if you still hold this position? Do you believe that
Berta was of Merovingian ancestry as indicated in your Les Ancestre de
Charlemagne?
I know you must have much work to keep you busy. I greatly appreciate
your work and hope for a response to my inquiry.
Respectfully,
Hardwick Smith Johnson, Jr., EdD
--- On Tue, 2/24/09, ina...@club-internet.fr <ina...@club-internet.fr>
wrote:
From: ina...@club-internet.fr <ina...@club-internet.fr>
Subject: Re: Merovingian Ancestry
To: hsjohns...@yahoo.com
Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:03 PM
Yes I'm always confident with that. Moreover the merovingian
ancestry of Beta is the only one wich find credit with mosts medieval
historians and not only with genealogists. Of course, this doesn't
prove that the assumption is correct. Just that this is a probable
conjecture (I know that hypercritics don't share this conclusion, but
thy are really in minority).
Christian Settipani
WJho...@aol.com
said about Berthe.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1999-11/094273591
9
Will Johnson
taf
> So we can all review this, here is the exact link back to what Settipani
> said about Berthe.
>
> 9
The link is broken due to the line-wrap.
The take-home message: the names of all of Bertha' family - father,
grandmother, her own, and her grandchildren, are all 'Merovingian' in
nature; Rommersheim was jointly owned by Peppin and Bertha, it having
come from their ancestors, suggesting that they shared a common
descent; and Merovingian king Theoderic III married a Doda (a name
found in the family of Ansegisel) and his son Clothar IV was recorded
as cousin of Charles Martel. If one links these three items together,
one has Ansegisel giving half of Rommersheim to each of two children,
Peppin and Doda, who would match the wife of Theoderic. Then Bertha of
Prum, grandmother of the other Bertha, would be daughter of the latter
couple.
From my perspective, it is fine as far as it goes, but it is based on
a few assumptions. First, that only descendants of Merovingian kings
would use Merovingian names. What about the layer of nobility
directly below that of the kings? What names did they use? Given the
typical patterns, feudal underlings tended to use the names of their
'betters'. Second, even if Theoderic married a daughter of Ansegisel,
we are still left with the indirect chain of relationships. Theoderic
married a kinswoman of the Mayors of the Palace, Bertha was a
kinswoman of the Mayors of the Palace, therefore Bertha must descend
from this very marriage. Were there no other relatives of the
Peppins? Couldn't it be that the connection to the Merovingians and
the connection to the Mayors were both true, but through different
avenues?
I compare this to the old question of Sancha de Ayala having a royal
descent, or a Muslim descent. It is highly likely that she had each,
but this is a question of demographics, not genealogy. In this case,
I think it is likely that Bertha did have Merovingian ancestry, but
that it is this precise Merovingian ancestry and that this argument is
sufficient to prove it, well, no. I view this argument, however
elegant, as little more than a guess.
taf
taf
wjhonson
> said about Berthe.
>
> 9
>
> Will Johnson
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/
th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1999-11/0942443584
Either join those two lines back into one or I've made this tinyUrl
http://tinyurl.com/PrincessBerthe
Will Johnson
Hovite
> On Dec 6, 4:23 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > So we can all review this, here is the exact link back to what Settipani
> > said about Berthe.
>
descendants married into the other Anglo-Saxon dynasties, spreading
Christianity among them: “Nam et antea fama ad eum Christianae
religionis peruenerat, utpote qui et uxorem habebat Christianam de
gente Francorum regia, uocabulo Bercta; quam ea condicione a
parentibus acceperat, ut ritum fidei ac religionis suae cum episcopo,
quem ei adiutorem fidei dederant, nomine Liudhardo, inuiolatum seruare
licentiam haberet. … Huic autem genti occasio fuit percipiendae fidei,
quod praefatus rex eius cognatione iunctus est regibus Cantuariorum,
accepta in coniugem Aedilbergae filia Aedilbercti regis, quae alio
nomine Tatae uocabatur. Huius consortium cum primo ipse missis procis
a fratre eius Aeodbaldo, qui tunc regno Cantuariorum praeerat,
peteret; responsum est non esse licitum Christianam uirginem pagano in
coniugem dari, ne fides et sacramenta caelestis regis consortio
profanarentur regis, qui ueri Dei cultus esset prorsus ignarus.”
M Sjostrom
then why does none of her preserved documents advertise that ?
I have an impression that in medieval centuries, daughters of kings were
mentioning their that status in their charters and such.
In 721, that king Theoderic's grandsons and such were the nominal monarchs
of that country. Such a mention (advertising also to be aunt or somesuch of
the incumbent monarch) would been most appropriate.
Hovite
Those quotes come from Bede, specifically
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/bede.html
He is generally regarded as reliable, but Patrick Sims-Williams (The
Settlement of England in Bede and the Chronicle. 1983. Anglo-Saxon
England 12: 1-41) cautioned "Where Bede's sources are extant we should
read and judge them for ourselves; where they are not extant, we
should treat the traditions Bede reports with at least the reserve
that he himself displays, probably with more".
The last kingdom to be converted was Sussex, and, as usual, this was
the result of a dynastic marriage. This time the Christian princess
came from Hwicce. Bede explained: “Porro regina, nomine Eabae, in sua,
id est Huicciorum prouincia fuerat baptizata.” That queen is a
possible (but not probable) ancestress of Harold II, as the Anglo-
Saxon Chronicle, version E (as translated by Michael Swanton), asserts
that his paternal grandfather was “Prince Wulfnoth the South Saxon”,
to which version F helpfully adds “father of Earl Godwine”. The word
actually used in the Anglo-Saxon text is not prince, but child,
apparently meaning heir apparent. The implication is that Wulfnoth’s
father was Ealdorman of Sussex, and that Wulfnoth was probably a
grandson of Ealdorman Eadric who died in 982. (But there may have been
several changes in dynasty since the kings were down graded in 771.)
It is also probable that Elfred the Great, King of the Anglo-Saxons,
was a male line descendant of the Ethelbert I of Kent and his Frankish
bride Bertha. If one rejects as fantastic the elaborate pedigree that
Elfred had fabricated for his father Ethelwulf, King of Kent & Wessex,
going back to Cerdic, Woden, and Adam, then it is apparent that the
real ancestors were from Kent. Ethelwulf’s father Ecgbert III of Kent
& Wessex had a name borne by two previous kings of Kent, and he is
said (in a late source) to have been kinsman of Eadbert III of Kent.
Ecgbert III’s father, Ealhmund, was King of Kent, and his name
resembles that of Eanmund, King of Kent, who reigned a generation
before. Furthermore the strong alliteration on names which commenced
with E- (in the Kentish dialect) is in marked contrast with the C-
alliteration of West Saxon kings.
It may be significant (or it could just be an accident of survival),
that Ecgbert III does not seem to have issued coins or charters while
he was simply King of Wessex, but seems to have waited until his son
Ethelwulf conquered Kent (“and the inhabitants of Kent turned to him …
because earlier they were wrongly forced away from his relatives”
Anglo-Saxon Chronicle). Ecgbert and Ethelwulf later issued a Kentish
charter, S1438, confirming a grant by the expelled interloper Baldred,
but stressing their hereditary rights. (There is a much earlier
charter, S270a, that has been attributed to Ecgbert, but it is
impossibly dated to the year before his accession in Wessex, and the
name given is actually “Edbirtus rex”, which probably in error for
Queen Eadburh; another charter, S271, is incorrectly dated 823,
possibly in error for 828, and gives Ecgbert the anachronistic title
“rex Anglorum”.).