Fw: Scholars And Gentlemen & Ladies
Leo van de Pas
If the cap fits wear it. I offend your sensibilities? How about you
offending my life's work with your remarks which now, overwhelmingly shown,
are based on a totally false premise?
I think your _scholarship_ and you being _a gentleman_ depend on your
behaviour, you have to apologies for your remarks. You can no longer stand
by your statements and think you have any credibility left.
----- Original Message -----
From: <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: Scholars And Gentlemen & Ladies
> Dear Leo ~
>
> It is not necessary to call newsgroup members "toadies." You insult
> everyone by your choice of words. Please refrain from name calling.
> If you are unable to control yourself, I suggest you find another
> newsgroup.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> Website: www.royalancestry.net
>
>
> "Leo van de Pas" wrote:
> > What these "comics" Richardson and Hines gleefully overlook is the
> insults
> > by both of them directed at me. The callous dismissal of a whole data
> base
> > because of some personal disagreements of Richardson certainly is
> grossly
> > offensive. This, of course, is sanctimoniously overlooked by
> Richardson and
> > his admiring toadies.
>
> > Best wishes
> > Leo van de Pas
> > Canberra, Australia
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com>
> > To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 7:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: Scholars And Gentlemen & Ladies
> >
> >
> > >
> > > "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:MS18e.641$6x....@eagle.america.net...
> > > > Classic!
> > > >
> > > > Abbott [Stewart] now joins Costello [Leo] in the act.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, we needed a good straight man.
> > > >
> > > > Everyone knows, of course, that Peter Stewart and I are the same
> > > > person -- that's very old news.
> > >
> > > Yes, Spencer - almost as stale as your dreary attempt at humour
> about it.
> > >
> > > Leo is not mocked - his generosity in making his excellent database
> > > available online is vastly more impressive than the absurd egotism
> of
> > > Richardon in proposing himself as the ultimate expert on English
> medieval
> > > and colonial "gateway" genealogy. He still hasn't answered my
> > > straightforward request for proof on the Basset-Gay/Gray business
> or
> > > questions on his criticism of CP regarding Isabel Booth.
> > >
> > > Peter Stewart
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
I seriously doubt the few Gay-Basset corrections and additions that
have been offered to you so far have destroyed your "life's work." You
need to relax, take a deep breath, and get a grip.
Please no more references to newsgroup "toadies," o.k.? Name calling
isn't necessary here on the newsgroup. Please keep it civil, polite,
and collegial, and all will go well.
By the way, when you have a moment, perhaps you can share with us when
you plan to add Aline de Gay's ancestry to your database? Sometime
soon, I hope. Just don't forget to give me credit for the discovery of
Philip de Gay's wife, Cecily. Thanks!
Leo van de Pas
My data base has taken me many years to assemble, with those words
Richardson dismissed all of it. The _misspellings_ of names was his main
reason. Now we learn from credible people that there never was such thing as
a consistent spelling.
Richardson by avoiding admitting this only harms his own reputation further.
Richardson is the one throwing around words like collegial, the collegial
thing to do is to admit you were wrong and your collegues were
right................simple. And that would be the end of the story. No more
need for descriptions Richardson regards as offensive.
No more santcimonious _those words hurt, even if you are right_
----- Original Message -----
From: <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Dora Smith
Have you just caught up with the new trend on teh Internet to attack people
for spelling, typing, and grammar?
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
vill...@austin.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leov...@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Leo van de Pas
You got the wrong end of the stick. I was assaulted by Douglas Richardson.
Out of the blue he tried to wreck my reputation = In summary, Leo's database
comes a cropper = I started to collect in 1958, probably before you were
born, and Richardson by one foul swoop wanted to discard it all. And by his
attack on spellings of surnames all he achieved was the exposure of his own
inadequacies.
Richardson has been saying that he is a _trained historian and genealogist_
he should have known better than to grandstand with his blatantly wrong
opinions. Have you seen my website? Have a look and tell me whether it is
word dismissing with _In summary, Leo's database comes a cropper_
http://www.genealogics.org
You kindly tried to defend Richardson, now try to see the other side of the
argument.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dora Smith" <vill...@austin.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Chris Phillips
> My data base has taken me many years to assemble, with those words
> Richardson dismissed all of it. The _misspellings_ of names was his main
> reason. Now we learn from credible people that there never was such thing
as
> a consistent spelling.
I hope Doug's corrections were offered in a constructive spirit. Certainly
he has praised your database in no uncertain terms previously.
As I'm only too aware in connection with the Complete Peerage, even the most
highly respected genealogical compilations contain some errors - "even Homer
nods".
It's interesting that even the new DNB refers in a couple of places to the
title as "Baron Le Despencer". I suspect this is incorrect, and that
"Despencer" is not a spelling that was ever used in medieval times - it
would be interesting to know when this version originated.
Regardless of any minor slips, or errors reproduced from other sources, I'm
sure everyone interested in medieval genealogy is very grateful for the
selfless way in which you've made this huge body of data freely available.
Chris Phillips
Todd A. Farmerie
> It's interesting that even the new DNB refers in a couple of places to the
> title as "Baron Le Despencer". I suspect this is incorrect, and that
> "Despencer" is not a spelling that was ever used in medieval times - it
> would be interesting to know when this version originated.
My guess would be that it has its roots in the attempts to trace Spencer
to Despenser.
taf
Chris Phillips
> > It's interesting that even the new DNB refers in a couple of places to
the
> > title as "Baron Le Despencer". I suspect this is incorrect, and that
> > "Despencer" is not a spelling that was ever used in medieval times - it
> > would be interesting to know when this version originated.
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> My guess would be that it has its roots in the attempts to trace Spencer
> to Despenser.
That was my suspicion too, though I was unable to back it up, and couldn't
remember whether Round offered any evidence to this effect.
Chris Phillips
Leo van de Pas
"In summary, Leo's database becomes a cropper. Missing individuals,
misspelled surnames (Le Despencer for le Despenser, Bassett for Basset), the
use of Latin forms of given names (Aliva for Aline), and inconsistency
regarding spelling. I also note that Leo has chosen to ignore the evidence
presented twice previously on the newsgroup regarding Aline de Gay's
parentage, once in 2002 and once in 2004. And, I've just scratched the
surface."
I see no constructive criticism. Criticism I ask for on my website and
criticism I frequently receive. But nothing as dismissive as Richardson's
effort.
The dishonesty of his description also offends. I have more Basset than
Bassetts. It is now exposed that there is no such thing as consistency in
the spelling of first or surnames, but this is what this _trained historian
and genealogist_ demands. If I am fuming, I think I have reasons to be. No
postive criticism to be obtained from Douglas Richardson. It is time he
reviewed his actions, having exposed his own wrong approach to his own
specialty, he has to change his tune and do it publicly.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Rick Eaton
This brings up a question for me.
In an off-line discussion with a very well informed genealogist, he said
that the College of heralds' work is often rife with errors and suggested
that they and, by inference, we, should re4ly more heavily on Burke's as a
tool for evaluation of College work.
Now, hardly a week goes by here when Burke's is not assailed for its errors.
What say you all about this subject? Do others find the work of the heralds
to be unreliable?
Rick
Leo van de Pas
Phillips is doing in regards to the Complete Peerage. For a period I
contributed errors and ommissions to Burke's and they gratefully received
them. Sadly I lost the e-mail address. Also if they correct it takes a long
time to become visible.
I have heard that the 1999 and later Burke's contain a great deal less
mistakes than the prior ones, because the new people spend a long time
correcting before the 1999 edition was published. Perhaps that is what your
contact referred to.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Eaton" <eaton...@sbcglobal.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: Newsgroup toadies - Unnecessary name calling
D. Spencer Hines
news:000401c542d9$e1b37c60$c3b4fea9@email...
| What we perhaps need is a line to Burke's and someone should do what
| Christ [sic] Phillips is doing in regards to the Complete Peerage.
-------------------------------------
I have a very high regard for Chris Phillips and his honesty, probity
and intelligence.
But he has not yet achieved Christ-like status.
Yes, Virginia, Good Spelling in Genealogy IS essential.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
CE Wood
But grammar is important too and cannot be blamed on keyboards:
"less" is used only with a singular, "fewer" is used with plurals:
i.e. not "less" mistakes, but "fewer" mistakes.
CE Wood
D. Spencer Hines
But I didn't want to bang on Leo van de Pas any further now.
Leo is in the firm grip of one of the most severe hissy fits I've ever
seen on USENET -- and I didn't want to pile on.
Also -- Keyboards don't make spelling errors -- people do.
DSH
"CE Wood" <woo...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1113695124.3...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Leo van de Pas
Thanks for your message. We have just established that there is no such
thing as consistant spelling and my finger trouble when spelling Chris
Phillips name I regard as fortuitous, as this is how I see him. Someone who
puts in an incredible amount of time and effort----just to help others. Not
like Richardson who exploits gen-med "Please send your Aline de Gay's line
to your Gateway Ancestor to me", so that he doesn't have to do it and later
can make money out of the contributions of others.
Sadly, I feel Richardson has placed his reputation as a scholar on the line,
and to redeem any credibility, he has to acknowledge that. He has offended
me but he has harmed his own reputation at the same time.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "CE Wood" <woo...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
What have we learned so far in our examination of Aline de Gay's family
history?
1. The name Aline is occasionally misread as Aliva/Oliva in Latin
texts.
2. Aline de Gay and her husband, Alan Basset, have massive numbers of
descendants, including most newsgroup members.
3. There were five successive women named Aline over seven generations,
four of whom have living descendants. The successive use of the given
name Aline shows the positive use of onomastics (naming patterns) to
identify family relationships.
4. Aline de Gay has traceable ancestry.
5. Aline's surname is Gai or Gay, but not Gray, as stated by the
historian, Mr. Reedy. Also, Aline de Gay was Alan Basset's only wife.
6. Aline's mother's name was Cecily, not Hilda, as stated by the
historian, Mr. Crouch.
6. There are many surviving documents which record Aline's parentage,
marriage, and large brood of children. A few of these important
documents have already been posted here on the newsgroup.
7. Aline's family owned identifiable properties (Wootton Bassett and
Broadtown, Wiltshire, and Northbrook, Oxfordshire) whose ownership can
be traced successively through the Pipard, Gay, Basset and le Despenser
families. This demonstrates that tracing the history of property can
successfully be used to connect and link one generation to another.
8. Good historians such as Mr. Reedy and Mr. Crouch can make serious
genealogical mistakes. As such, it is important to verify all printed
secondary sources against primary records where it is possible.
9. Variant forms of surnames such as Ponynges and Ponynnges exist, but
historians usually plump for one spelling such as Poynings and go with
that. The process is one of standardization and modernization. It
saves much confusion. I support this convention.
Leo van de Pas
to demanding consistent spellings and that he thinks it is quite ok to
destroy other people's reputation, as long as their reply is polite and
collegial. Other people's work is useless, unless they support his
assertions. And other people better have the information he has as
otherwise, really, missing individuals is just too terrible to contemplate.
Communications is a tool we all work with and, in my opinion, Richardson has
abused this tool. He should come clean, come off his high horse and
apologise. How else can we ever take him serious again?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Dora Smith
You seem to have seriously misunderstood me.
The way I understand it, someone else attacked your work on the basis of
spelling, etc.
I have a problem with this other person, not with you.
At one point, when I was used to being attacked on issues that actually
matter, like the family history of manic depression I've been tracing, I
might have been as worried about this as you are.
But now I know that this is trivial.
This individual is the one with a problem. Not you. He couldn't greatly
undermine your work on these grounds alone.
In fact, he (or she, or it) must have jumped completely out of his element.
Perhaps he had better stick to fields he understands. Medieval people
couldn't spell! Their names are spelled any old how - and in multiple
languages.
You can either calmly and good-humoredly point out reality to such people,
or ignore them. This guy isn't going to be here long - he will soon
discover that the medieval world was both too complex and too human for him!
And what people like that find hardest to deal with of all is to be ignored.
Of course, maybe I'm so completely turned around that you're actually the
insultER - but it doesn't sound that way, and I'm really not as worried
about what that person thinks.
Besides, this individual is now fatally distracted. The next thing we'll
hear from him is a diatribe that mannic depreshun isn't genetik! Grin.
:) Probably isnt even a dizeze.
Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, Texas
vill...@austin.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leov...@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: Newsgroup toadies - Unnecessary name calling
Leo van de Pas
Glad we ironed out that misunderstanding, now the next one. The person who
assaulted my reputation regards himself as one of the worlds best
genealogists. He has contributed to books by others and produced one
himself. The one he produced in many ways is superb but in other ways there
are flaws. Of course not everything can be beyond criticism, well, he
thinks he is. And if you do not live up to his standards, you have become a
cropper, never mind that others do not agree with his standards. Mental
disease? Now that is a thought.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dora Smith" <vill...@austin.rr.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Peter Stewart
<royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1113697755.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> What have we learned so far in our examination of Aline de Gay's family
> history?
>
> 1. The name Aline is occasionally misread as Aliva/Oliva in Latin
> texts.
>
> 2. Aline de Gay and her husband, Alan Basset, have massive numbers of
> descendants, including most newsgroup members.
>
> 3. There were five successive women named Aline over seven generations,
> four of whom have living descendants. The successive use of the given
> name Aline shows the positive use of onomastics (naming patterns) to
> identify family relationships.
>
> 4. Aline de Gay has traceable ancestry.
>
> 5. Aline's surname is Gai or Gay, but not Gray, as stated by the
> historian, Mr. Reedy. Also, Aline de Gay was Alan Basset's only wife.
This is NOT what Reedy says at all, as you should realise from my posts much
less from consulting his book - as anyone purporting to research the Basset
family must do.
You have NOT yet proved that Alina de Gai was the only wife of Alan Basset.
This may well be the case, but your unsupported word is not nearly enough to
settle the question.
> 6. Aline's mother's name was Cecily, not Hilda, as stated by the
> historian, Mr. Crouch.
>
> 6. There are many surviving documents which record Aline's parentage,
> marriage, and large brood of children. A few of these important
> documents have already been posted here on the newsgroup.
>
> 7. Aline's family owned identifiable properties (Wootton Bassett and
> Broadtown, Wiltshire, and Northbrook, Oxfordshire) whose ownership can
> be traced successively through the Pipard, Gay, Basset and le Despenser
> families. This demonstrates that tracing the history of property can
> successfully be used to connect and link one generation to another.
>
> 8. Good historians such as Mr. Reedy and Mr. Crouch can make serious
> genealogical mistakes. As such, it is important to verify all printed
> secondary sources against primary records where it is possible.
As to the maternity of Alan's son Philip, the proof you have put forward so
far is the repetition of the name Alina for his daughter and his holding a
patronage that had belonged to the Gai family. Given the security of
inheritance, that can normally be relied upon at the time, this could be
satisfactory - but only IF there is no contrary evidence as Reedy suggests,
or if such evidence is contradicted by some other & stronger indication or
reasoning.
Once again you are deluded if you think the current authority on a subject,
in this case Reedy's work, can be set aside without thorough examination.
It might help to resolve this if someone could post the relevant information
in VCH Wiltshire vol. 9, p. 192 that Reedy cited.
Peter Stewart
Todd A. Farmerie
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> What have we learned so far in our examination of Aline de Gay's family
> history?
>
> 1. The name Aline is occasionally misread as Aliva/Oliva in Latin
> texts.
I don't know that this is an accurate description. What we know is that
in medieval Latin script, the names Aline and Alive (written Aliue)
would be indistinguishable, making it virtually impossible to determine
what the name should be. To refer to "Aline"s earlier or later in the
pedigree is not evidence in favor of this name, as this just shows a
consistency in reading Aliiie, rightly or wrongly (it begs the
question). Have you seen a case where this is unambiguously rendered in
the original contemporary script (not published transcripts, as these
would only reflect the editor's preference)?
taf
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Chris and others,
>
> This brings up a question for me.
>
> In an off-line discussion with a very well informed genealogist, he
> said that the College of heralds' work is often rife with errors and
> suggested that they and, by inference, we, should re4ly more heavily
> on Burke's as a tool for evaluation of College work.
Heaven help us: the blind leading the near-sighted!
> Now, hardly a week goes by here when Burke's is not assailed for its
> errors.
Burke merely copied what his punters told him. He asked for their
pedigrees, converted them to sonorous prose and published them. Some
were good, a few had rubbish in them.
> What say you all about this subject? Do others find the work of the
> heralds to be unreliable?
The problem here is establishing what heralds might have written. By
and large they do not publish their research but work for clients as
that is how they earn a living.
One possible source of herald's output is Fox-Davies' Armorial
Families; Fox-Davies' method was only to include people and their arms
that had had sanction by one of the heraldic bodies in the British
Isles. This pair of volumes included several long assemblages of
quarterings which can be presumed to have come from a heraldic
achievement done by a herald. Some of these assemblages include
classic errors, such as the arms of Brittany and Rohan inherited through
Zouche, and the arms of Clavering (aka FitzRobert) inherited by
Neville (see Fox in Vol I of the seventh edition); both are genealogical
errors.
The question then is where the heralds may have got this information
from. They do not take the word of the families unless they
knew the people, which accounts for the limit of grandparents. My
suspicion is that these early pedigrees are taken from Visitation
papers; visitations were conducted following Royal Commissions and their
resulting papers are therefore quotable as evidence in a court of law.
This gives visitations an undeserved status. The trouble then is when
the visitations contain false material; a particularly susceptible
visitation is that of Yorks of 1563-4 and within that there is a
particularly tendentious Neville pedigree. Thoguh I hasten to add that
the published Yorks visitation of 1563-4 was not taken from the
surviving official documents in the College of Arms.
The trouble now is that so many of these pedigrees-with-a-few-errors
have been published over the years that it would be highly embarrassing
to state they were not quite right.
And on the other hand it is remarkable that the really great
genealogical scholar of G E Cokayne was himself not merely a herald but
also the Clarenceux king of arms. He must have been aware of the
limitations of some of the documents held in the College of Arms.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Doug McDonald
>
> I have heard that the 1999 and later Burke's contain a great deal less
> mistakes than the prior ones,
I don't know about the "Peerage", but I do about the "Landed
Gentry in Scotland" which in fact contains the complete Scottish
and Scottish part of the UK Peerage in it.
I have indeed found a very few of differences from the SP and/or CP,
mostly in the form of "wrong wife with better pedigree" sort,
but in general it is very reliable. For Scotland you really should
compare Burke, SP and CP. The problem comes when CP and SP,
including their supplements, disagree. Then the only recourse
is this newsgroup or primary research. One cannot assume that
CP, though later, supercedes SP, since there are too many cases
where CP in vol. XIV has changed to agree with SP.
Doug McDonald
Doug McDonald
>
> | But grammar is important too and cannot be blamed on keyboards:
> |
> | "less" is used only with a singular, "fewer" is used with plurals:
That is no longer the case in Modern English. Language is
defined by useage ... "Vox populi, vox dei" it used to be said,
but today, it has become "Vox fori, vox dei". "Fori" is the
genitive form of the Roman word for "shopping mall" :-)
Doug McDonald
Gordon Banks
Queen?"
Does he come from the Spencers, the le Despensers or some other family?
--
Gordon Banks <g...@gordonbanks.com>
Clive West
found in contemporary documents. One example can be found in Coram Rege. 50
Henry III (1265) rot. 17. This reports that an emissary had been to sent to
rouse the county of Essex in support of Simon de Montfort...."cum litteris
Hugonis le Despencer, tunc Justiciarii Angliae...etc" . The 17th century
historian William Camden likewise spells the name "Despencer". Matthew Paris
writing in Latin in the 13th century always refers to "Hugo le Dispensator".
However "le Despenser" is certainly the most common form and therefore has
the best claim if there has to be a standard version.
Clive West
Windsor Berks
> Chris Phillips wrote:
>
> > It's interesting that even the new DNB refers in a couple of places to
the
> > title as "Baron Le Despencer". I suspect this is incorrect, and that
> > "Despencer" is not a spelling that was ever used in medieval times - it
> > would be interesting to know when this version originated.
>
taf wrote
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
>
> As to the maternity of Alan's son Philip, the proof you have put
forward so
> far is the repetition of the name Alina for his daughter and his
holding a
> patronage that had belonged to the Gai family. Given the security of
> inheritance, that can normally be relied upon at the time, this could
be
> satisfactory - but only IF there is no contrary evidence as Reedy
suggests,
> or if such evidence is contradicted by some other & stronger
indication or
> reasoning.
Aline de Gay was definitely the mother of Alan Basset's son and heir,
Gilbert Basset. In 1241 Gilbert's widow, Isabel, had the manor of
Broadtown, Wiltshire assigned to her in dower. The manor of Broadtown,
Wiltshire was part of Aline de Gay's inheritance. The manor of
Broadtown eventually fell by inheritance to Gilbert Basset's younger
brother and heir, Sir Philip Basset, and thence onto the Despensers.
We can be certain that Aline de Gay was also the mother of Alan
Basset's eldest son, Thomas Basset, who died without issue in his
father's lifetime in 1230. The heir to Thomas' lands at his death in
1230 was his younger brother, Gilbert Basset. If Gilbert had been
Thomas Basset's half-sibling, he could not have inherited Thomas'
lands.
Paget's Baronage gives no birthdate for either Thomas Basset or Gilbert
Basset. But he does indicate that Thomas had land grants in 1222 and
1224, and that Gilbert was granted property in 1217 and 1229. Taken at
face value, this suggests that both Thomas and Gilbert Basset were born
before 1200, which date is before Reedy's estimated date of marriage
for their parents. Aline de Gay's father, Philip de Gay, appears in
the Pipe Rolls in the late 1170's. As such, there is no problem
whatsoever chronologically for Aline de Gay to be a mother in or before
1200.
I haven't looked at Gilbert Basset's two land grants to verify that
they pertain to the right Gilbert Basset. But the second one is surely
the right party, as it involves property (Upavon, Wiltshire) later held
by the Basset and Despenser families. After the fall of the
Despensers, the manor of Upavon along with Broadtown, Wiltshire was
granted by the king to the Bohun family. You can find details of the
Bohun grant in my forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry. Given these
facts, I believe it is reasonable to conclude that Paget is correct to
state that the Gilbert Basset who had Broadtown, Wiltshire is the same
individual who had Upavon, Wiltshire and also that he is the son of
Aline de Gay.
> Once again you are deluded if you think the current authority on a
subject,
> in this case Reedy's work, can be set aside without thorough
examination.
Mr. Reedy made some minor genealogical errors. This hardly requires
dismissing his work in toto as you have suggested. Mr. Reedy is an
otherwise careful and competent scholar who deserves great praise for
taking the time and trouble to collect, translate, and publish the
Basset family charters. Hats off to Mr. Reedy.
> It might help to resolve this if someone could post the relevant
information
> in VCH Wiltshire vol. 9, p. 192 that Reedy cited.
You want US to do your research for you, Peter? Mmmmm .... you must be
pulling our leg.
> Peter Stewart
Chris Phillips
> As I mentioned in a previous message, the spelling "le Despencer" is
often
> found in contemporary documents. One example can be found in Coram Rege.
50
> Henry III (1265) rot. 17. This reports that an emissary had been to sent
to
> rouse the county of Essex in support of Simon de Montfort...."cum litteris
> Hugonis le Despencer, tunc Justiciarii Angliae...etc" .
Thanks you for posting this example of the Despencer spelling. Just out of
curiosity, does this come from an original document, or a published
transcript? I would be slightly hesitant about the accuracy of some of the
olde published transcripts, such as those published in the early 19th
century by the Record Commission.
Chris Phillipa
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips wrote:
> > > It's interesting that even the new DNB refers in a couple of places to
> the
> > > title as "Baron Le Despencer". I suspect this is incorrect, and that
> > > "Despencer" is not a spelling that was ever used in medieval times -
it
> > > would be interesting to know when this version originated.
Hmm. Obviously I should have checked before writing this.
The PRO online catalogue lists 62 references for "Despencer", compared with
540 for "Despenser".
Perhaps some of these are mistaken post-medieval transcriptions, but I'd be
surprised if they all were.
Chris Phillips
Renia
> Ah yes - correct spelling - those darn keyboards.
> But grammar is important too and cannot be blamed on keyboards:
>
> "less" is used only with a singular, "fewer" is used with plurals:
>
> i.e. not "less" mistakes, but "fewer" mistakes.
You use fewer for anything you can count individually: e.g. fewer
people; fewer dandelions; fewer relatives.
You use less for anything that cannot be counted: less juice; less fog,
less mess.
Renia
Renia
> Does anyone know the ancestry of Edmund Spenser, author of the "Fairy
> Queen?"
>
> Does he come from the Spencers, the le Despensers or some other family?
According to Chambers Biographical Dictionary:
Spenser, Edmund (c1552-1599) English poet, born in London, the son of a
gentleman tradesman who was connected with the Spencers of Athorp. He
was educated at Merchant taylors' School and Pembroke Hall, Cambridge.
Cambridge Alumni has him as "probably" son of John Spenser, clothmaker
of East Smithfield.
Renia
Peter Stewart
<royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1113767868.9...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
<blather chomped>
> You want US to do your research for you, Peter? Mmmmm .... you must be
> pulling our leg.
It's not MY research - I understood that you initiated this thread. I can't
get to a library holding VCH Wiltshire at preesent, and several people here
clearly do have ready access to this. If anyone wishes to post something
helpful to the discussion, that is fine - if not, that too is fine by me. I
have no particular interest in looking it up even when I can, as it's not MY
research.
And I repeat, your arbitrary statements and insistence on property
transmission as total proof are NOT adequate IF there is substantial
contrary evidence. If there is just some confusing indication that has been
misinterpreted in VCH and by Reedy, that can be easily shown. Until it is,
YOUR work is not done.
Peter Stewart
WJho...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
<< We can be certain that Aline de Gay was also the mother of Alan Basset's
eldest son, Thomas Basset, who died without issue in his father's lifetime in
1230. The heir to Thomas' lands at his death in 1230 was his younger
brother, Gilbert Basset. If Gilbert had been Thomas Basset's half-sibling, he could
not have inherited Thomas' lands. >>
Was there not at this time (1230) also living the next brother Philip ?
Was it normal for lands to descent only to one brother and not be divided
among all the brothers (heirs) ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
<< Paget's Baronage gives no birthdate for either Thomas Basset or Gilbert
Basset. But he does indicate that Thomas had land grants in 1222 and
1224, and that Gilbert was granted property in 1217 and 1229. Taken at
face value, this suggests that both Thomas and Gilbert Basset were born
before 1200, >>
Just based on this, I would suspect that the Gilbert in 1217 is a different
person (uncle?). Otherwise I'm not sure why Gilbert would get land in 1217 as
a younger brother, with the elder not getting anything until 1222. Provided
all the sources still exist. While it's perfectly acceptable that Thomas got
land twice before Gilbert got any.
Will Johnson
Gordon Banks
de la Pole, Chief Baron of the Exchequer during Edward III with Owain de
la Pole, from Wales. It was my understanding that William came from a
merchant family without earlier known connections, besides his father.
Is this still valid?
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Yes, Gordon, you are correct. William de la Pole, Chief Baron of the
Exchequer, was from the North of England, and has no connection to the
Welsh family.
I'm curious to know what databases you were using?
WJho...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
<< She is his only known wife. They were married in
or before 1200, and probably before 1195. >>
And doesn't the "Resealing of confirmation" which you (Douglas) posted with
date 3 Jul 1190 and in which she is named "Aline and Cecily de Gay..." indicate
that she was not a Basset at this time, so that her marriage would be
1190/1200 ?
Thanks
Will
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
> 1190/1200 ?
> Thanks
> Will
Dear Will ~
Good point. If the two Gay heiresses were in the king's gift and the
girls were old enough to have their father's estates divided in 1190,
it seems a good bet that the king already had husbands in mind for both
Cecily and Aline at the time of the estate division in 1190. If so,
Cecily and Aline were probably married in or after 1190 to their
respective husbands.
Besides this document dated 1190, we know from other records that Alan
Basset and Aline de Gay's eldest known daughter, Aline Basset, was
married to her first husband, Drew de Montagu, in or before 1213. We
can be certain of this because Drew and Aline's son and heir, William
de Montagu, had livery of his father's lands in 1234 [see Complete
Peerage, 9 (1936): 76-77 (sub Montagu)]. This means William de Montagu
was born in or before 1213.
Judging from the chronology, it seem probable that Aline (Basset) de
Montagu was sometime born before 1200. If so, this would narrow the
time frame of her parents' marriage a little bit. My impression is
that Alan Basset and Aline de Gay were married in or before 1195.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salr Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Gordon Banks
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/DeLaPOLE.htm
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jamesdow/s006/f188271.htm
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~judfan/16448.htm
http://www.childsfamily.com/reunion/wc14/wc14_043.htm
There are more.
One further question, and maybe Leo would comment also. This site:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ERY/Hull/HullHistory/HullHistory13.html
uses Bulmer's 1892 Gazetteer to claim that the Baron of the Exchequer's
father (also William) was married to Elena, who married 2nd a John
Rotenheryng(great name!). Leo's database shows Elena as Elena
Rotenheryng with her father as John Rotenheryng. So was John
Rotenheryng her husband or father?
Thanks in advance.
On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 09:08 -0700, Douglas Richardson
Peter Stewart
<royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1113846022.8...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Dear Peter ~
>
> You're waffling again. That's not good. In your previous post, you
> told us I was "seriously deluded" if I thought Reedy's genealogical
> conclusions could be set aside.
Rubbish & falsehood again - this was a CONDITIONAL statement, that Reedy's
conclusion could not be set aside without examinaiton IN CASE the basis for
it stood up against the other evidence.
You are NEVER going to win an argument through blatantly misrepresenting
what everyone here can see for themselves.
> Then, I promptly provided the desired
> evidence which showed Reedy was in error. Mmmmmm .... so much for
> "serious delusion."
But you haven't even discussed the rationale of Reedy - he cited several
close rolls and VCH Wiltshire IX. The newsgroup has not yet seen whatever
indications are given in these. As I have said, the evidence you rely on may
stand up - but we can't possibly take your word for it without going over
the same ground as experts who came to a different conclusion.
> As I've stated, Alan Basset's wife was named Aline
> de Gay (not Gray). She is his only known wife. They were married in
> or before 1200, and probably before 1195.
No-one has suggested a wife named "Aline de Gray" - the name given is
suspiciously similar, but not to this degree. Reedy names the putative first
wife "Alice de Gray".
> Mr. Reedy is a competent and reliable historian who got a couple of
> genealogical facts in error. I have enormous respect for the man.
> But, what's your excuse, Peter? Sloppy and incomplete research? If
> so, I don't think begging people to do your research is the answer.
> You can do better than that, Peter. I have faith in you.
I haven't sone any research on the question - I am participating in a
newsgroup thread started by YOU, with the purpose of ensuring that YOU don't
foist more garbage or slipshod research on SGM & your other readers.
If you read my posts with honest eyes (an impossibility, I grant) you would
see that I have made NO claims whatever, just questioned yours for the sake
of clarifying why acknowledged experts in the field have come to different
views on the point at issue. What else is SGM discussion for? I have no
intention of publishing anything on this subject, and I am plainly NOT
researching it for my own ends.
Peter Stewart
John Higgins
said:
"Name calling has no place here on the newsgroup"
And on the same day:
"The lurkers are disgusted by this kind of behavior on the newsgroup, as am
I."
And on 4/16:
"You insult everyone by your choice of words. Please refrain from name
calling.
If you are unable to control yourself, I suggest you find another
newsgroup."
One may well wonder who the real gasbag is....perhaps you should practice
what you preach and try not to be such a pompous hypocrite. But that's
probably too much to expect....the rest of us will just get used to ignoring
you.
----- Original Message -----
From: <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: Aline de Gay - What have we learned so far?
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Well, I predicted another Peter Stewart tirade and here it is.
> "Rubbish and falsehood" he cries! Me thinketh he protests too much.
> And, still he has no evidence. Egads - what a gasbag!
>
> Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines gasbag as:
>
> 2 : an idle or garrulous talker
>
> Does anyone want the real evidence to be presented regarding the Gay
> family? Or, will it be drowned out by gasbags who spew out endless
> accusations, unsupported allegations, and hateful innuendo?
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> Website: www.royalancestry.net
>
Peter Stewart
<royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1113876419.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Well, I predicted another Peter Stewart tirade and here it is.
> "Rubbish and falsehood" he cries! Me thinketh he protests too much.
> And, still he has no evidence. Egads - what a gasbag!
>
> Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines gasbag as:
>
> 2 : an idle or garrulous talker
>
> Does anyone want the real evidence to be presented regarding the Gay
> family? Or, will it be drowned out by gasbags who spew out endless
> accusations, unsupported allegations, and hateful innuendo?
I have consistently tried to get this evidence presented for examination,
despite your stonewalling - it now seems that VCH doesn't link the Gai
family to Wootton, so there's a starting point: what is the proof that this
came to Philip Basset through Aline de Gai?
I haven't posted any "unsupported allegations" or "hateful innuendo". Wnen I
call you a liar this opinion is completely in the open. When I post a
tirade, no-one is left wondering if this was my intention, or is in need of
your spin to think about it. The sad fact that you haven't done your work
properly on this matter is not an allegation, it is obvious to everyone
reading the thread.
Until you have checked all of Reedy's references and offered
counter-evidence that Alan Basset had no previous wife who lived until at
least the time stated by him, and until you have established on firmer
grounds than onomastics and your statements about property transmission that
Aline de Gai was undoubtedly mother of all her husband's children, we cannot
be expected to choose between your version of this family and the currently
received version given by Reedy.
And that doesn't require vindication: it stands as a challenge to you, not a
conclusion on my part.
Peter Stewart