Y DNA of the Prophet Mohammed determined
steven perkins
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090619/NATIONAL/706189822/0/inc
Y DNA haplogroup J1e:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1arabproject/default.aspx?section=yresults
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Denis Beauregard
<scpe...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>See news article here:
>http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090619/NATIONAL/706189822/0/inc
>
>Y DNA haplogroup J1e:
>http://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1arabproject/default.aspx?section=yresults
How can they do that ?
According to Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#Wives_and_children
he had 4 daughters and 2 sons dead young from one wife, and
2 sons dead young too from another wife.
He would have descendants from his daughter, so the DNA would be that
of his son-in-law. In the article, they speak about the J1e because
it was his clan, but actually, this is the clan of the son-in-law that
can be studied and the DNA trail would be for any relative to that
son-in-law (siblings, uncles, etc.). At most, it will eliminate some
lines.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - g�n�alogiste �m�rite (FQSG)
Les Fran�ais d'Am�rique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur c�d�rom � 1770 - On CD-ROM to 1770
M.Sjostrom
from the article, implied that the DNA of the prophet is not as taboo as his picture is known to be. Hopefully, this would hold and not some fundamentalist attacks would occur, on a notion that they might held DNA testing of prophet as blasphemous.
----
dear Denis, that article tells that Mohammed's son-in-law was his agnate. It's obviously upon that piece of information why it's assumed the prophet had the identical y DNA.
Of course, this basically gives the same result, whether it's a male-line descendant of Mohammed himself (if such exist), or a descendant of any of his agnate.
However, the postulation that it is 'prophet Mohammed's descendants' presumably comes from the combination that the paper trail of those sharifs and sayyids claim Fatimid male line; and a belief similar to the Genghis case that it's the famous man (here Ali) and no one else of the agnates of that epoch who are the forefathers.
This cannot ever be fully certain; but there's also a likelihood that everyone with some Arab root, is after 1300 years descending in a way or another from Mohammed.
And, since any cognatic descent from that agnatic line is anyway impossible to prove genetically to descend from Mohammed,
it's a moot point to think about his other daughters in this.
taf
> However, the postulation that it is 'prophet Mohammed's descendants' presumably comes from the combination that the paper trail of those sharifs and sayyids claim Fatimid male line; and a belief similar to the Genghis case that it's the famous man (here Ali) and no one else of the agnates of that epoch who are the forefathers.
>
>
Unfortunately, if the paper trail is equally bogus, we may be getting
the same answer for the wrong reason twice. As a trivial example of
what I mean, I was told, as a child, that my family descended from
Wild Bill Hickok through my great-great-grandmother, Mary Hickok. In
fact, they were contemporaries and second cousins. Now if in that
short a number of generations an agnatic connection can get
'converted' in family lore into a direct descent, then in over 1400
years the same could happen to the Prophet - how many families, with
an agnatic descent from the Prophet could resist? An iffy paper trail
and an iffy DNA test don't combine to make a certainty, and almost all
of the descents from Mohammed are iffy.
taf
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
sharing the same agnatic grandfather, Abd al-Muttalib. What the
article failed to mention is that from Muhammad, 13 agnatic
generations are known.
I have no expertise in that area but I think that the y-dna have
mutations something like each 10 generations. If by luck Abd al-
Muttalib was the one that had the mutation - 10% chances - we could
identify his descendants, that is 6 known males with progeny and six
others that nothing is known (besides 6 daughters).
The whole doesn't seems very promising except, as you said, to
eliminate some lines.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 20 Jun, 21:24, Denis Beauregard <denis.b-at-
francogene....@fr.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 14:46:40 -0400, steven perkins
> <scperk...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
> >See news article here:
> >http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090619/NATIONAL/706189822/0/inc
>
> >Y DNA haplogroup J1e:
> >http://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1arabproject/default.aspx?sectio...
>
> How can they do that ?
>
> According to Wikipediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#Wives_and_children
> he had 4 daughters and 2 sons dead young from one wife, and
> 2 sons dead young too from another wife.
>
> He would have descendants from his daughter, so the DNA would be that
> of his son-in-law. In the article, they speak about the J1e because
> it was his clan, but actually, this is the clan of the son-in-law that
> can be studied and the DNA trail would be for any relative to that
> son-in-law (siblings, uncles, etc.). At most, it will eliminate some
> lines.
>
> Denis
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord -www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
> French in North America before 1722 -www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
> Sur cédérom à 1770 - On CD-ROM to 1770
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
It just ocurred to me that if Ali was the one who had the mutation, as
he had no other males from his other marriage, it would be possible to
identify all descendants of Hassan and Hussein and those would be all
the possible agnatic descendants of the Prophet.
For that no paper trail was necessary. If a test covering a large
enough number of supposed descendants and equal or larger number of
supposed non descendants to contrast, and something unique was found
in a reasonable percent of the first sample and not found (except in a
non-signifiant number) in the contrast sample, it could work.
On the other hand if it was 'Abd Allah, Muhammads' father that had the
mutation, the y would be different from Ali's and again, nothing
useful could be found. Same chances for both.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
Denis Beauregard
<francisco.tav...@gmail.com> wrote in
soc.genealogy.medieval:
>As the article states Muhammad and his son-in-law Ali were 2nd cousins
>sharing the same agnatic grandfather, Abd al-Muttalib. What the
>article failed to mention is that from Muhammad, 13 agnatic
>generations are known.
good point. I read the article too fast and only the main lines.
>I have no expertise in that area but I think that the y-dna have
>mutations something like each 10 generations. If by luck Abd al-
>Muttalib was the one that had the mutation - 10% chances - we could
>identify his descendants, that is 6 known males with progeny and six
>others that nothing is known (besides 6 daughters).
Actually, one mutation can't stop another mutation ! This is
probability, not a regularly spaced event. If the generation before
had a mutation, each of the following generations can have it too.
The common ancestor was born about year 500, 1500 years ago. With
30 years/generation, there are 50 generations, there are in the
average 5 mutations, but for lines, it could be 3 and other, I
suppose as high as 10. To find the DNA of the common ancestor,
we have to identify those mutations. Because this is probabilities,
at most, we will probably eliminate only those not from the original
arabic tribe.
>The whole doesn't seems very promising except, as you said, to
>eliminate some lines.
Indeed, but not sure how many arabic lines would be eliminated.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - g�n�alogiste �m�rite (FQSG)
Les Fran�ais d'Am�rique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur c�d�rom � 1770 - On CD-ROM to 1770
steven perkins
> See news article here:
> http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090619/NATIONAL/706189822/0/inc
>
> Y DNA haplogroup J1e:
>
Try this link for the Arabian J1 Project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Arabian_YDNA_J1_Project/default.aspx